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After the initial reports of Dave MacLeod soloing Darwin Dixit (8c), speculation about the grade and the height of the route followed. We felt that more coverage of this ascent was justified as it may be the "hardest solo in the world". I asked Dave his opinion on the grade of the route:
Read More: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=03&year=2008#n43134
Read More: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=03&year=2008#n43134
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Pretty vague answers which avoided the questions in my honest opinion. It would have been nice for Dave to be a little more specific. A fine effort regardless of the grade/height.
Pretty vague answers which avoided the questions in my honest opinion. It would have been nice for Dave to be a little more specific. A fine effort regardless of the grade/height.
In reply to Anonymous:
Bloody hell - there's just no pleasing some folk, is there? When did grading become an exact science?
Bloody hell - there's just no pleasing some folk, is there? When did grading become an exact science?
In reply to Anonymous:
I think you need to read it again. "For sure Darwin Dixit is very soft for 8c..." seems a pretty definite answer to me. He has then gone on to qualify that based on his own experience. What more do you want from the man? If he was trying to avoid the questions, then I wouldn't recommend a career in politics!
I think you need to read it again. "For sure Darwin Dixit is very soft for 8c..." seems a pretty definite answer to me. He has then gone on to qualify that based on his own experience. What more do you want from the man? If he was trying to avoid the questions, then I wouldn't recommend a career in politics!
In reply to Anonymous: so much publicity and money infact that it says on the blog they can only get the footage to us when they can afford a new pc.
so actually read the 1000's of words he's already writen about it, stop moaning and go and try and solo 8c yourself.
so actually read the 1000's of words he's already writen about it, stop moaning and go and try and solo 8c yourself.
In reply to Anonymous:
I can think of plenty of easier publicity stunts and, in any case, so what if it is? If it helps raise/maintain his profile, then that's a good thing. Why do people always feel the need to put a negative slant on reported achievements?
I can think of plenty of easier publicity stunts and, in any case, so what if it is? If it helps raise/maintain his profile, then that's a good thing. Why do people always feel the need to put a negative slant on reported achievements?
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Hi Jack, max respect for giving the answer (re: Ou est le crux) we asked for that Dave, despite his wise words, glossed over. Cheers. I take it this is because that it really is totally obvious from the video (which I haven't seen). I don't think Dave would deliberately not answer something just to up the number of posts to a thread and create controversy now. I'm amazed that people are now criticise those who publish free videos in the name of openness, as publicity seeking. It would be a little presumptious of me to conclude that there's one tw*t born every minute from this, no matter how true that is in any case, but do some of you need a recent history lesson about why this state of affairs came about? Maybe I should write the Heason/Simpson debacle article. FFS it seems we need one.
And if Macleod's a publicity seeking shallow low life nobody, then who are your heroes in the climbing world exactly then you c*nts? I'm all ears. Even news of Gaskins (a God in more than appearance, if I may say so myself on Jesus Weekend) has been quiet for the last year, and I for one'd love to hear what he's been up to.
Pearson's even this month just had a whole mag dedicated to himself for a climb a grade below what Macleod's achieved, much as I hate to bring his good name in to this turgid argument. But is that not publicity seeking?
Oh and Sharma's been doing a lecture tour. Great. Good for him. At least I hope that Dave Graham's been taking lots of drugs while he can and Josune's probably got many better things to do. I'm sure Fred's been doing something great but his most recent interviews only available in French on real player....
What's that? Macleod's just put up the hardest onsight Scottish Winter Route ever? While we were all too busy talkng about and disecting his 8c solo? Publicity seeking arse hole, who does he think he is!
Hi Jack, max respect for giving the answer (re: Ou est le crux) we asked for that Dave, despite his wise words, glossed over. Cheers. I take it this is because that it really is totally obvious from the video (which I haven't seen). I don't think Dave would deliberately not answer something just to up the number of posts to a thread and create controversy now. I'm amazed that people are now criticise those who publish free videos in the name of openness, as publicity seeking. It would be a little presumptious of me to conclude that there's one tw*t born every minute from this, no matter how true that is in any case, but do some of you need a recent history lesson about why this state of affairs came about? Maybe I should write the Heason/Simpson debacle article. FFS it seems we need one.
And if Macleod's a publicity seeking shallow low life nobody, then who are your heroes in the climbing world exactly then you c*nts? I'm all ears. Even news of Gaskins (a God in more than appearance, if I may say so myself on Jesus Weekend) has been quiet for the last year, and I for one'd love to hear what he's been up to.
Pearson's even this month just had a whole mag dedicated to himself for a climb a grade below what Macleod's achieved, much as I hate to bring his good name in to this turgid argument. But is that not publicity seeking?
Oh and Sharma's been doing a lecture tour. Great. Good for him. At least I hope that Dave Graham's been taking lots of drugs while he can and Josune's probably got many better things to do. I'm sure Fred's been doing something great but his most recent interviews only available in French on real player....
What's that? Macleod's just put up the hardest onsight Scottish Winter Route ever? While we were all too busy talkng about and disecting his 8c solo? Publicity seeking arse hole, who does he think he is!
In reply to Paz:
Legendary posting Paz.
Legendary posting Paz.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Is 'for sure very soft 8c' for Darwen Dixit 8b or 8b+ in reality as suggested by Sharma? Maybe it should be given its real grade rather than 'very soft 8c'. It seems that perhaps the relative grade of neighbouring routes and the soft grading of routes alluded to in this part of Spain in general should play no part in this decision. They should all be downgraded if they are all soft. How else are we to compare the grade of routes in different areas eg. Spain vs Ceuse vs Frankenjura? Seems very few people want to downgrade routes for some reason. Grade inflation seems to be on the increase. Lets think of the benchmark routes at certain grades established at the cutting edge in the 80's eg. Cry Freedom 8b+, Agincourt 8c etc. Nobody says they are soft.
Is 'for sure very soft 8c' for Darwen Dixit 8b or 8b+ in reality as suggested by Sharma? Maybe it should be given its real grade rather than 'very soft 8c'. It seems that perhaps the relative grade of neighbouring routes and the soft grading of routes alluded to in this part of Spain in general should play no part in this decision. They should all be downgraded if they are all soft. How else are we to compare the grade of routes in different areas eg. Spain vs Ceuse vs Frankenjura? Seems very few people want to downgrade routes for some reason. Grade inflation seems to be on the increase. Lets think of the benchmark routes at certain grades established at the cutting edge in the 80's eg. Cry Freedom 8b+, Agincourt 8c etc. Nobody says they are soft.
In reply to Paz:
Love it
> What's that? Macleod's just put up the hardest onsight Scottish Winter Route ever? While we were all too busy talkng about and disecting his 8c solo? Publicity seeking arse hole, who does he think he is!
Love it
In reply to Paz:
Nice post Paz BUT you will find that most aren't discussing the grade of Darwin Dixit or Don't Die of Ignorance.
Many thousands just read and keep their thoughts to themselves, a minority, and in this case usually anonymous posters, have questioned the grade.
In fact on each thread associated with each of the Macleod news reports the majority offer congratulations.
Mick
> (In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC)
>
>
> What's that? Macleod's just put up the hardest onsight Scottish Winter Route ever? While we were all too busy talkng about and disecting his 8c solo? Publicity seeking arse hole, who does he think he is!
>
>
> What's that? Macleod's just put up the hardest onsight Scottish Winter Route ever? While we were all too busy talkng about and disecting his 8c solo? Publicity seeking arse hole, who does he think he is!
Nice post Paz BUT you will find that most aren't discussing the grade of Darwin Dixit or Don't Die of Ignorance.
Many thousands just read and keep their thoughts to themselves, a minority, and in this case usually anonymous posters, have questioned the grade.
In fact on each thread associated with each of the Macleod news reports the majority offer congratulations.
Mick
In reply to Paz:
(Not having a go)
But was it onsight? My understanding was that he fell earlier and then inspected the crux. Would love to know im wrong!
> What's that? Macleod's just put up the hardest onsight Scottish Winter Route ever?
(Not having a go)
But was it onsight? My understanding was that he fell earlier and then inspected the crux. Would love to know im wrong!
In reply to DaveWarb:
Yeah sorry. I just wanted to distinguish it from Logical Progression (which was headpointed). It was done in the traditional Scottish style which was the important thing. i.e. as onsight as possible, or as onsight as other routes, onsight with falls etc.
Yeah sorry. I just wanted to distinguish it from Logical Progression (which was headpointed). It was done in the traditional Scottish style which was the important thing. i.e. as onsight as possible, or as onsight as other routes, onsight with falls etc.
In reply to Paz: I think the term you are looking for is "ground up", yes?
In reply to Paz: Yeh, like i say i wasn't picking fault i was just curious, i thought i may have missed something. Cheers.
In reply to Anonymous:
You Sir, are a grade one fud.
> It just seems like a big publicity stunt in my opinion.
You Sir, are a grade one fud.
In reply to Removed User:
Because they're green with jealousy.
> Why do people always feel the need to put a negative slant on reported achievements?
Because they're green with jealousy.
In reply to gingerkate:
I don't think that's necessarily it you know. If Macleod had soloed Agincourt, there would be no debate. He has soloed a route hardly anyone has heard of and made a statement about it being "probably the first 8c free solo". Of course there's going to be a bit of speculation about how hard it actually is. The next person who solos a F8c will not benefit from the same media value.
Grades are all over the place on Spanish crags. I've just returned from a week in Buoux where some routes would be 2 grades harder on Spanish crags. No question.
Dave's achievement is remarkable, even more so given his amazing breadth of ability, but I don't think it's out of order to question how hard Darwin Dixit might be in comparison to other, more famous F8cs.
> (In reply to DarrenH)
> [...]
>
> Because they're green with jealousy.
> [...]
>
> Because they're green with jealousy.
I don't think that's necessarily it you know. If Macleod had soloed Agincourt, there would be no debate. He has soloed a route hardly anyone has heard of and made a statement about it being "probably the first 8c free solo". Of course there's going to be a bit of speculation about how hard it actually is. The next person who solos a F8c will not benefit from the same media value.
Grades are all over the place on Spanish crags. I've just returned from a week in Buoux where some routes would be 2 grades harder on Spanish crags. No question.
Dave's achievement is remarkable, even more so given his amazing breadth of ability, but I don't think it's out of order to question how hard Darwin Dixit might be in comparison to other, more famous F8cs.
In reply to Tom Briggs:
Got spanked did you?
> I've just returned from a week in Buoux where some routes would be 2 grades harder on Spanish crags. No question.
Got spanked did you?
In reply to Chris F:
Pretty much - no surprise tho!
> (In reply to Tom Briggs)
> [...]
>
> Got spanked did you?
> [...]
>
> Got spanked did you?
Pretty much - no surprise tho!
In reply to Tom Briggs:
It was a general remark in reply to another general remark. DarrenH has presumably observed, as I have, that _whatever_ people climb at the top end of the sport, someone will be along to piss on their bonfire. You can always find technical justification for the picking, but the emotional motivation remains the same, IMO.
It was a general remark in reply to another general remark. DarrenH has presumably observed, as I have, that _whatever_ people climb at the top end of the sport, someone will be along to piss on their bonfire. You can always find technical justification for the picking, but the emotional motivation remains the same, IMO.
In reply to Tom Briggs:
Well said Tom. It's important (to me at least) to make sure historical ascents are factually correct.
Good effort to Jack for following up the original news item.
Well said Tom. It's important (to me at least) to make sure historical ascents are factually correct.
Good effort to Jack for following up the original news item.
In reply to gingerkate: Nonsense, some people just care that things reported as firsts are actually firsts.
I don't think anyone is denying that Dave is one of the best climbers in Britain at the moment and performing to a world class level in many disciplines.
I don't think anyone is denying that Dave is one of the best climbers in Britain at the moment and performing to a world class level in many disciplines.
In reply to Tom Briggs:
Which 8c in France did Moon and Sellers find toe hooks on and downgrade, super prestat?
I thought the modern opinion was that places like Buoux, Ravenstor, Frankenjura are all now out of kilter, and because there are fewer of them it would be easier to upgrade them rather than downgrade the whole of Spain, Slovenia, Switzerland, Thailand, etc. etc.
Soloing always seems particularly contentious. Noone ever says `yeah but I'd like to see someone onsight Mecca', even though that's what a lot of us are thinking...
Which 8c in France did Moon and Sellers find toe hooks on and downgrade, super prestat?
I thought the modern opinion was that places like Buoux, Ravenstor, Frankenjura are all now out of kilter, and because there are fewer of them it would be easier to upgrade them rather than downgrade the whole of Spain, Slovenia, Switzerland, Thailand, etc. etc.
Soloing always seems particularly contentious. Noone ever says `yeah but I'd like to see someone onsight Mecca', even though that's what a lot of us are thinking...
In reply to Paul B:
Both are true, are they not?
Full disclosure combined with accurate and thorough reporting is always best but also, as we all know, some individuals in the climbing world do have a negative knee jerk reaction to any achievement by top climbers.
Whilst that is true, some will always deny it for whatever reason......professional jealousy is but one reason.
> (In reply to gingerkate) Nonsense, some people just care that things reported as firsts are actually firsts.
Both are true, are they not?
Full disclosure combined with accurate and thorough reporting is always best but also, as we all know, some individuals in the climbing world do have a negative knee jerk reaction to any achievement by top climbers.
> I don't think anyone is denying that Dave is one of the best climbers in Britain at the moment and performing to a world class level in many disciplines.
Whilst that is true, some will always deny it for whatever reason......professional jealousy is but one reason.
In reply to Paz:
I think with SOME of the places you mention this is the situation however I'd argue strongly against people upgrading (or wanting to upgrade) all of the hard classics/1st's, thats like re-writing history and is just plain wrong even if it is easier. To me this just highlights the need to keep soft places in check.
I think with SOME of the places you mention this is the situation however I'd argue strongly against people upgrading (or wanting to upgrade) all of the hard classics/1st's, thats like re-writing history and is just plain wrong even if it is easier. To me this just highlights the need to keep soft places in check.
In reply to: Ramonet took 8C for this route on 8a.nu, I guess he knows a bit about the grade of top end routes?!
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: It was an opinion so yes.
Full disclosure etc teamed with accurate reporting would be great but you know better than most I suspect that this is often not the case.
With regards to your knee jerk reaction to any high level achievement, I think this is only the case as a lot of cutting edge ascents are diluted by ascents that really are behind the times in style and difficulty...but again thats just my opinion and diverges from the main topic.
Full disclosure etc teamed with accurate reporting would be great but you know better than most I suspect that this is often not the case.
With regards to your knee jerk reaction to any high level achievement, I think this is only the case as a lot of cutting edge ascents are diluted by ascents that really are behind the times in style and difficulty...but again thats just my opinion and diverges from the main topic.
In reply to Paul B: I think it is healthy to investigate every ascent to a degree, the more facts we can find the more interesting our news is for our readers and the more historically accurate our records are. We'll do our best to research where we can, but it's not always that easy. It's great when climbers like Dave give their time and answer questions about their climbing.
Thanks again Dave.
I do think that there are some overly negative responses to just about every climbing achievement going, but a good bit of realism is definitely a good thing.
Check out the article coming tomorrow: The Affabulateurs.
Whilst having nothing to do with this thread topic - it's a great piece from Alpinist Magazine about story telling and reporting etc. and we state a bit about our editorial ethos in it.
Cheers,
Jack
Thanks again Dave.
I do think that there are some overly negative responses to just about every climbing achievement going, but a good bit of realism is definitely a good thing.
Check out the article coming tomorrow: The Affabulateurs.
Whilst having nothing to do with this thread topic - it's a great piece from Alpinist Magazine about story telling and reporting etc. and we state a bit about our editorial ethos in it.
Cheers,
Jack
In reply to Paz:
Are you not thinking of Edlinger on Moon's Agincourt?
I've not heard this, I hope it's not true. Where will it end? with everything given a 'Kalymnos grade'?
> (In reply to Tom Briggs)
>
> Which 8c in France did Moon and Sellers find toe hooks on and downgrade, super prestat?
>>
> Which 8c in France did Moon and Sellers find toe hooks on and downgrade, super prestat?
Are you not thinking of Edlinger on Moon's Agincourt?
> I thought the modern opinion was that places like Buoux, Ravenstor, Frankenjura are all now out of kilter, and because there are fewer of them it would be easier to upgrade them rather than downgrade the whole of Spain, Slovenia, Switzerland, Thailand, etc. etc.
>
>>
I've not heard this, I hope it's not true. Where will it end? with everything given a 'Kalymnos grade'?
In reply to Serpico:
No, the opinion is that it would just be easier to do that, not that anyone wants to see it happen.
And did anyone else downgrade this to 8b or was it just Sharma? What grade did he first give Mandala again?
No, the opinion is that it would just be easier to do that, not that anyone wants to see it happen.
And did anyone else downgrade this to 8b or was it just Sharma? What grade did he first give Mandala again?
In reply to Paz:
Moon's Maginot Line was downgraded from 8c to 8b+ by French repeaters after the discovery of toe hooks. The route was then extended/linked into another to give Super Plandford.
I didn't think Buoux grades were that bad to be honest but defo harder than Spain. Slovenia on the other hand felt nails, really hard. Now Thailand is soft and was also the scene of the first 8b solo by a Briton......
Obviously this is irrelevant to the original thread, sorry everyone.
> Which 8c in France did Moon and Sellers find toe hooks on and downgrade, super prestat?
Moon's Maginot Line was downgraded from 8c to 8b+ by French repeaters after the discovery of toe hooks. The route was then extended/linked into another to give Super Plandford.
> I thought the modern opinion was that places like Buoux, Ravenstor, Frankenjura are all now out of kilter, and because there are fewer of them it would be easier to upgrade them rather than downgrade the whole of Spain, Slovenia, Switzerland, Thailand, etc. etc
I didn't think Buoux grades were that bad to be honest but defo harder than Spain. Slovenia on the other hand felt nails, really hard. Now Thailand is soft and was also the scene of the first 8b solo by a Briton......
Obviously this is irrelevant to the original thread, sorry everyone.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Interesting thread - I think it can only be a good thing that grades are subject to public scrutiny and debate, what it the alternative, banning all discussion out of fear of damaging climbers' sensitivities?! What a ridiculous scenario. What is the problem with a bit of conjecture/ mentioning of other climbers' experiences on routes and comparision with crags/ climbs at other crags?? I think it is a really healthy thing. I have no ulterior motive whatsoever, I am only interested in the historical record like other people in this thread.
I have no emotional response to this at all, I merely have a rather trainspotterish interest in grades from years reading climbing magazines etc. I will never climb at anything apporaching the levels Dave climbs at and wholeheartedly congratulate Dave on a magnificent solo, something which I would not do myself in a million years, I do not solo.
BTW, the comments re Maginot Line are correct above, the discovery of a crucial toehook on the crux dyno in the mid-nineties, resulted in Ben Moon and Nic Sellars rethinking the grade and reassessing it down to 8b+ from 8c - I don't know what it currently gets. This was at a time in 96 when Ben was questioning the sudden appearance of loads 9a's in Europe when he didn't think that there had been adequate consolidation at 8c or 8c+. He was labelled by a lot of ppl as having a sour grapes attitude but I think he was speaking a lot of sense. I don't think many people downgrade stuff now to be honest and this is all ancient history. I can't help wondering that something of what Ben said back then is true due to the disparities we are seeing between areas like Spain and France/ UK.
Interesting thread - I think it can only be a good thing that grades are subject to public scrutiny and debate, what it the alternative, banning all discussion out of fear of damaging climbers' sensitivities?! What a ridiculous scenario. What is the problem with a bit of conjecture/ mentioning of other climbers' experiences on routes and comparision with crags/ climbs at other crags?? I think it is a really healthy thing. I have no ulterior motive whatsoever, I am only interested in the historical record like other people in this thread.
I have no emotional response to this at all, I merely have a rather trainspotterish interest in grades from years reading climbing magazines etc. I will never climb at anything apporaching the levels Dave climbs at and wholeheartedly congratulate Dave on a magnificent solo, something which I would not do myself in a million years, I do not solo.
BTW, the comments re Maginot Line are correct above, the discovery of a crucial toehook on the crux dyno in the mid-nineties, resulted in Ben Moon and Nic Sellars rethinking the grade and reassessing it down to 8b+ from 8c - I don't know what it currently gets. This was at a time in 96 when Ben was questioning the sudden appearance of loads 9a's in Europe when he didn't think that there had been adequate consolidation at 8c or 8c+. He was labelled by a lot of ppl as having a sour grapes attitude but I think he was speaking a lot of sense. I don't think many people downgrade stuff now to be honest and this is all ancient history. I can't help wondering that something of what Ben said back then is true due to the disparities we are seeing between areas like Spain and France/ UK.
In reply to Tyler: route? ascentionist?
In reply to teddy:
Good knowledge. I think we can leave Heason's solo out of this as things like Sean's Roof, and even Revelations had already been done. Even when Revelations was 8a+ I know which I'd rather solo, but I just like Thai food and films and beaches.
Good knowledge. I think we can leave Heason's solo out of this as things like Sean's Roof, and even Revelations had already been done. Even when Revelations was 8a+ I know which I'd rather solo, but I just like Thai food and films and beaches.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC
Dani Andrada comments on the grade of Darwin Dixit...
by climbing it barefoot.
http://www.daniandrada.blogspot.com/
Dani Andrada comments on the grade of Darwin Dixit...
by climbing it barefoot.
http://www.daniandrada.blogspot.com/
In reply to everyone- grades eh cant live with them cant live with out them, the problem with climbing is every ones just comparing how big their dick is-i'm off surfing p.s. massive respect to anyone giving their all whatever thier doing
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