UKC

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

"3. Climbers tend not to be paralysed by silly phobias nor are they easy victims for crackpot faiths, cults or fanatical ideologies."

Blimey,he's obviously not spent much time on UKC then.(too busy climbing I guess)

In reply to Postmanpat:

Why do you have to belittle this serious article?

In terms of what he wrote, it made me think.

If climbers really are on the fringe of society, that is not a good thing.

The benefits of adventure in the great outdoors should be appreciated by all, after some outdoor education- especially in these times of so called 'environmental awareness.'

Its a great shame in these days of litigation more youngers are not allowed to appreciate this type of activity.

I for one would be happy to take local kids out climbing in the UK, were it not for the fact that I might be sued if something were to go wrong, or accused of molestation due to the general publics lack of trust in adults, fuelled by our media.

It might widen their horizons, rather than hanging around street corners.

In reply to pingod:



Climbers had always been on the fringes of society, viewed by many as a good thing. Although they may have been affluent middle-class, as well as working class....whatever strata of society they were brought up in...they used to never fit the mold of a conforming automaton.

Which is one of the reasons so many find climbing attractive!

It's about living outside....rather than rotting inside.

Here is one of my heros, David Brower... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Brower

Mick

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Good article, along similar thoughtful lines as 'The Mountaineer as Artist' by George Mallory, only more practical.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: So has this SCE future funding meeting already taken place? How did it go? Pat is right to look at it from the point of what image the government want to portray. What is more important to our government? That we are recognised world wide as explorers with cultural and environmental experience or that we are recognised as top curlers and supreme speed walkers I wouldn't put too much stress on the health issues or protection from extremists (remember the terrorist training camp in Windermere? I'm sure the course involved some climbing). Enivornmental and cultural is the way to convince our government. For example, British climbers support for Tibet. That has to be worth something to our government? What ever the outcome, we climbers will keep doing our thing

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Boy, you've hit the nail right on the head there. I used to be so lonely and NEVER fit the mold, could never understand the British love of beer guzzling, fast food and taking the kids to some seaside resort or other and hanging around the arcades! I have always loved the outdoors but was introduced to climbing fairly recently by a work colleague then joined a local mountaineering club and NOW I know what has been missing in my life all this time! I've found people that eat good food, enjoy life and have lots of good healthy fun!

...one more point to add, climbing shows you can get a huge group of people across countries, cultures etc etc and they can create and largely follow a self-policing set of ethical standards etc. That's kind of cool, don't you think?
By way of contrast, just imagine what climbing would be like if we imported the moral culture of football: people jumping up to grab your ankle and pull you off the route while claiming to be somewhere else entirely etc etc etc...

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Much of what Pat says about the attraction of climbing and the nature of climbers could be applied to "science", which is why, I think, climbing and mountaineering etc are so popular among scientists.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Climbing should make little sense to anyone who doesn't do it. Just in the same way as I make little sense of golf. Why would any climber want some sort approval from a non climber? As if it should be worthy of some sort of merit.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Thanks for the article Pat.

I'm not clear if you want further input/thoughts or if the moment has passed.

In case there is still the opportunity to fine tune Climbing's pitch (see what I did there?) to the Government, you might consider:

1. Making a virtue of the slightly anarchic ethos of the sport - this isn't golf or rowing. It's very individual and perhaps "catches" in some way people who don't fit so well into regulated team games.

2. Appealing to history and our ubiquitous sense of UK pride in exploring boundaries. Hilary, Scott, Lewis...etc.

3. The fact that financial support gets expressed in benefits not solely seen in cities (which have sports centres, gyms, athletics tracks, golf clubs etc.) - it pulls people to wild and rural areas.

4. It's one of the fastest growing sports (albeit from a low base)

I suppose we should probably work out why mountaineering/climbing needs funding...and why it can't generate it itself?

J

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: I think there's a paradox here. I don't doubt the benefits which climbing brings to those individuals who participate in it and that people who possess those qualities benefit society, although it is arguable that people who have these qualities in the first place are then attracted to climbing. Like most things I suspect it's a bit of both.
More important however is whether we should use these arguments to attract government funding.
Personally I think as a body of people we should have as little to do with government as possible, especially a government so obsessed with target setting and micro managing every facet of our lives. You can be pretty sure that what the government thinks climbing can be used for to the wider benefit of society will not be what we as a body of climbers might think is best for our sport.
Quite why do we want their money anyway? If somebody waves money at you its always tempting to reach out and grab it but government funding always comes with strings attached. Having worked in the public sector I've seen the ridiculous amount of time that can be wasted chasing pots of cash instead of getting on with the real jobs that need doing.
If there was less money in climbing would it really matter? If we can't sponsor competition climbers or stage international comps does that really matter to the vast majority of climbers who have no interest in them whatsoever? And is it really the taxpayers responsibility to fund climber's holidays (otherwise known as expeditions)?
Do we really need to do more to widen participation in our sport? Surely independent, self reliant individuals, from all walks of life, with a sense of adventure have always found their way into climbing or other similar pursuits and by making it easier to get into climbing we simply dilute those qualities we value so highly. As an example try reading the recent forum postings on the rescues from Tower Ridge last weekend.

Personally I think there are already too many climbers, erosion, litter, polished rock, overcrowded crags etc are all a result of too many people. I do not believe the BMC should do anything which actively encourages any additional participation, they should simply represent the interests of those people who have already chosen to climb.

Whilst perfectly able to function within society when necessary and aware that we can never be entirely isolated from it, I greatly value the fact that climbing and climbers operate outside the mainstream and believe we should do all we can to resist the encroachment of the values of modern society such as risk aversion, blame culture and over commercialisation which are the antithesis of what climbing has stood for for over a century. The more we open our doors to the mainstream the harder these things become to resist.
I've never felt any desire for society to "encourage and support" me in my chosen hobby, I'd far rather be in a "fringe group to be tolerated at best or even ignored".
We might be a little poorer financially but richer in so many more ways.