UKC

NEW REVIEW: Wild Country Superlight Rocks - by Jon Griffith

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 Jack Geldard 26 Mar 2008
"My main problem with these Superlights is that I'm completely addicted to them! I never leave for the mountains without them and they have been a real lifesaver many times this winter. In fact I can't get enough of them...

...These Rocks will hold a fall and they are strong, there is no doubt about it."

"For me this is definitely my gear choice for 2007 and as yet I have found nothing that has surpassed it" - Jon Griffith UKC.

Looking for a second set of nuts? Jon thinks that you could do a lot worse than plump for the WC Superlights.

Read More: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=880

 MeMeMe 26 Mar 2008
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:


They sound good but they are a lot weaker than normal rocks (4-6kN compared to 7-12kN).

Do you know if this is due to the single wire or to the narrower head?
Or something else?

Just wondering if you could have the advantages of the smaller profile and single wire without the disadvantage of the lower breaking strain if you used heavier materials?
 TobyA 26 Mar 2008
In reply to MeMeMe: Interesting point - I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of the more mechanically minded than me on the necessity of cable strength on nuts. It was something I noted with the Metolius ultra-lights:

"I will need to use them more, but in the limited testing we did with them, it seems we all needed to use nut keys more often to get them out. Looking at the bumpf that comes with them, I also noticed they aren't as strong as DMM Wallnuts either. The Metolius sizes #1 to #5 are rated at 7kn, and #6 upward are rated 10 kn. In comparison a DMM Wallnut #1 is 7 kn; a #2 is 9kn; #3, 11 kn; and all the rest 12 kn. Does this matter? I don't really know. You almost never hear of wires snapping except on tiny micros, so maybe it's academic. What you do get is a set of ten nuts (they are virtually the same size as Wallnuts) that weigh less than the already streamlined most recent versions of Wild Country Rocks and DMM Wallnuts. The actual nut of the Ultralights is also a novel shape. Metolius claim they sit better in flared cracks which is partly why I bought them. I haven't decided yet whether I like the shape or not. More climbs need to be done before a more definitive opinion is arrived at, although this may have to wait as last night it snowed and it appears that winter is here."

http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=607

Andy Kirkpatrick has been steering people away from the smallest DMM and WC nuts (0, 00, 1/2 etc.) for some time over concerns about their strength, but I guess they are really quite weak?
 beardy mike 26 Mar 2008
In reply to TobyA: Average falls are 4-7kNish, minimum is 3, max is 13 unless you do something funky. So they're not particularly tenous and as always its more likely to be the rock that fails. Don't forget that they will be 3 Sigma rated so in reality most of the nuts will fail well above the rated strength anyway.

Jon - how do the sizes compare to BD microstoppers - I'm thinking of augmenting mine in terms of sizes as a light second set...
 MeMeMe 26 Mar 2008
In reply to mike kann:
> (In reply to TobyA) Average falls are 4-7kNish, minimum is 3, max is 13 unless you do something funky. So they're not particularly tenous and as always its more likely to be the rock that fails.

Surely that depends on the type of rock and the placement?

Actually I'd be interested to know what affect the size of the nut itself has on this, I'd guess the less surface area in contact the more pressure on the rock and the more likely the rock is to break and the more likely the nut is to deform and pull out?

I wish they hadn't called them rocks, it makes it awkward to discuss them when you are also talking about real rock!

> Don't forget that they will be 3 Sigma rated so in reality most of the nuts will fail well above the rated strength anyway.
>
> Jon - how do the sizes compare to BD microstoppers - I'm thinking of augmenting mine in terms of sizes as a light second set...

looks like microstoppers are smaller and lighter but a bit weaker (they have a bigger strength range - from 2kN to 8kN).
 beardy mike 26 Mar 2008
In reply to MeMeMe: No. The mechanics of a fall never change. Ropes are designed to limit the fall force to within the 3-13kN range. Yes the size of the nut will affect the placement in terms of surface area contact. However a smaller nut may well be able to seat better and therefore have a higher area of surface contact than a large rocky nut. As you say smaller surface area = larger stress in the surface of the rock and a greater probability of failure - hence the likes of fat cams from metolius being aimed at desert sandstone climbers. However for hard generally compact rocks like lime, granite, ryolite etc (ie rocks you find in the mountains) the rock is much stronger and unlikely to break in this mode. Of course they aren't as strong as a normal nut but in my book some protection is better than none and these rocks do seem to provide placements you would not normally get. Personally I'm thinking of ditching my metolius curve nuts and going back to a set of alloy offsets with these at the bottom end...
 IainWhitehouse 26 Mar 2008
In reply to TobyA:
>
> Andy Kirkpatrick has been steering people away from the smallest DMM and WC nuts (0, 00, 1/2 etc.) for some time over concerns about their strength, but I guess they are really quite weak?

Rightly so. It is not so much a concern over absolute strength as that 'proper' micros are generally stronger (and harder - which reduces the likelyhood of a pull-out failure).

RPs, BD microstoppers or HB offsets are generally a better choice for small gear.

Iain
 Jon Griffith 26 Mar 2008
Hi guys some interesting questions and I have directed Richard Patterson who designed them to help answer them.

I dont want to offer misleading info on head strength and cable design strength so I will leave those more technical questions to Richard

However as Mike has pointed out some protection is better than no protection and this is what i really like about them. In addition I found that I could use them in placements that I would otherwise have to use pitons in and the time saving is obviously enormous for both leader and second.
Of course there is obvioulsy going to be the concern over strength and as I have tried to stress you need to be aware of this as its not going to hold you on a major leader fall- but these rocks are not just for the preserve of aid climbing and i think that's an importnant differentation to make. I was very happy placing these on lead but I was always mindful to look for another placement not too far above it. In any case for 96grams you cant really go wrong.
I did not want to write in the article that they are Sigma 3 rated and therefore should hold more than they are rated, for obvious reasons. But it is a point worth noting (he says very cautiously!)
jon
 MeMeMe 26 Mar 2008
In reply to mike kann:
> (In reply to MeMeMe) No. The mechanics of a fall never change. Ropes are designed to limit the fall force to within the 3-13kN range. Yes the size of the nut will affect the placement in terms of surface area contact.

I don't mean the 3-13kN thing, I was just curious about the bit where you said "its more likely to be the rock that fails".

> Of course they aren't as strong as a normal nut but in my book some protection is better than none and these rocks do seem to provide placements you would not normally get. Personally I'm thinking of ditching my metolius curve nuts and going back to a set of alloy offsets with these at the bottom end...

I've already got micros (that I don't use unless I have to because frankly they don't look like they'd hold much of a fall), was just curious about whether you could have heavier versions of the superlight rocks with same shape but a better strength rating.

They'd have the advantage of fitting in smaller/different placements to the normal rocks but have decent strength ratings (7kN and above say) and so you could have more confidence in them.
 Jon Griffith 26 Mar 2008
In reply to mike kann: Unfortunately I have never seen or tried the micro-stoppers so i cant really help you. I am trying to get my hands on a set of them from BD to review so watch this space!
jon
 beardy mike 26 Mar 2008
In reply to Jon Griffith: They are very good. I now use the larger ones instead of small wired nuts as they are nore durable and stronger - you can hammer them in the winter without trashing them... Just seems that micro stoppers, up to superlights then up to offsets would infact be an nut uberset...
 Jon Griffith 26 Mar 2008
In reply to mike kann:
Just seems that micro stoppers, up to superlights then up to offsets would infact be an nut uberset...

I was thinking the same thing hence why i wanted to get my hands on some micro-stoppers to review. I think armed with a set of those and the superlights you will open up alot of new avenues for protection with very little weight added on.
 beardy mike 26 Mar 2008
In reply to Jon Griffith: I know for a fact that the offsets are insanely good as I used to own some - they just seem to fit everywhere. Astronuts are great too but impossible to get hold of in the large sizes... much better than microstoppers and would make a very homogenous set of nuts...
 Wild Country 26 Mar 2008
In reply to MeMeMe:

> They sound good but they are a lot weaker than normal rocks (4-6kN compared to 7-12kN).Do you know if this is due to the single wire or to the narrower head?Or something else?
> Just wondering if you could have the advantages of the smaller profile and single wire without the disadvantage of the lower breaking strain if you used heavier materials?

As the designer of Superlight Rocks hopefully i can answer your questions...
The Superlight Rocks are weaker than std Rocks basically due to the unique way they are made - something which came about due to the way we manufacture Zero cams.
The problem had always been with aluminium that to create a small (micro) nut has been impossible because you cannot solder Aluminium (nut) to Steel (wire) - thus in the past all aluminium nuts had to have a loop (two strands) of cable running through them which limited the size they could go down to - especially width wise..

But with the new Zeros cable design this was solved as a small steel collar is soldered to a single cable (creating a 'stop') and for the Superlights is then pushed through what is essentially a sawn in half rock...
And since it is a single strand this gives the ability to finally have a much narrower head in aluminium and this gives amazing placement possiblities - see reviews...

However, it is the strength of this soldered ring which is the limiting factor - and if you will note the Superlight Rocks give the same strength as the Zeros which use the same size cable...sizes 1 - 4...

And as for using 'heavier' materials - if by that you mean larger materials - and yes you could but then you would have a larger heavier nut, which would defeat the object...a non micro micro nut??

As the designer i envisaged the Superlights to be used in exactly the way Jonathon and others (I used the superlite wires on north stack the other dayand they were ace - James MacHaffie)have enjoyed them - as an addendum to a regular rack and as a specialist tool to give more options for very little weight.

Nuts of this size always have their limitaions and should be used with care - but as i think someone else says 'it's better have it than not'...and as for Andy K saying to not use WC or DMM micros then it's maybe becasue he's not been on the sharp end of an E4 E5 or E6..





 beardy mike 26 Mar 2008
In reply to Richie Patterson, Wild Country: Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think he actually meant don't use small WC and DMM nuts as they are strung on the equivalent of a gnats pubic hair as opposed to proper strong silver soldered steel or brass...
 CurlyStevo 26 Mar 2008
In reply to mike kann:
The good thing about the DMM micros is they are wider so are better in fairly uniform cracks in softer rock (for instance inland UK limestone), as I've been lead to believe quite often the rock is the limiting factor with the mircos anyway.
 MeMeMe 26 Mar 2008
In reply to Richie Patterson, Wild Country:

>
> And as for using 'heavier' materials - if by that you mean larger materials - and yes you could but then you would have a larger heavier nut, which would defeat the object...a non micro micro nut??

I mean denser rather than heavier really, although actually I guess really mean stronger. I don't really know the terminology.
So you could keep the small size and shape but sacrifice the weight benefit to give you a greater breaking strain.

I don't know if that would work though because I suppose if the materials are stronger then they would probably be less malleable and might not have enough 'bite' to sit well.


Anyway thanks for the post, it's interesting to find out how these things are put together!
 beardy mike 26 Mar 2008
In reply to CurlyStevo: That and the gnats pubic hair they use to string em
 francoisecall 26 Mar 2008
In reply to Jon Griffith: Interesting comment from Jon about using these small rocks instead of pitons. I find that I can't resist the temptation to hammer in the micro rocks with my ice axe. But then I mostly climb in winter.
 Jon Griffith 26 Mar 2008
In reply to francoisecall: a fair point! But then this winter hasnt seen too much ice in the cracks as you no doubt noticed! Am looking forward to when this snow settles, maybe get some good climbing in! Hope you have some good plans ahead
 Paz 26 Mar 2008
In reply to CurlyStevo:
> (In reply to mike kann)
> The good thing about the DMM micros

Is that they are cheap and shit and I feel I can yank on them as hard as I like if needs be and if they get stuck, well who cares?

Maybe they go in better on the rock around you. I find that there's the odd worn micro placement that everyone uses, and they're great on granite, but generally Swedges are so much better when you're looking for your own placement. And sliders, god man, sliders. Wow.

Part of the problem with Zeros (just sizes 1 and 2) near me is that the placements haven't been cleaned out through use yet, and that the cams themselves are on the scale of the type of undulation, rock texture or dirt particles you find in cracks. However they are unique and I finally found two good placements in a route the other day. Sadly right level with a bomber rock three, but I was happy.

Richie I use them and like them and they're light, so I'm not about to buy another set soon, but if you wanted to improve the zeros, maybe you could extend the regular micro cam range down to the smallest sizes. I find the `revolutionary'/ flexible axle to be an achilles heel as it makes it harder to shove a zero in hard, control the axle orientation, and it just gets bent. Or is that not feazible because of the different axle attachment? Could you just not stiffen up the axle a bit and call it a nano cam?

Finally, who's selling the cheapest set of superlghts, delivered, or is that a stupid question (i.e., should I just look towards Hathersage or Keswick when the time comes)?
 Jon Griffith 27 Mar 2008
In reply to Paz:
> (In reply to CurlyStevo)
> [...]
>
And sliders, god man, sliders. Wow.

Interesting, I've always been interested in the idea and 'concept' behind them but never fully felt like i could trust them. No real reason of course and that might be a good incentive to go and try them out!
jon
 beardy mike 27 Mar 2008
In reply to Jon Griffith: I can confirm that they work and seem surprisingly secure...
 Paz 28 Mar 2008
In reply to Jon Griffith:

I know what you mean, it's not exaclty an intuitive mechanism, but they're effin strong and I felt the same way about cams at first. The same thing goes for both with me - if a piece feels solid when I give it a good yank then I trust it (I think it's something to do with the noise it makes); the one slider I have has excelled itself when it has come to this test so far. I haven;t drop tested them or anything, I'm jusgoing on what I reckon, but this is what gives you the edge when you're on the lead anyway (your perception of a piece) so almost what's it matter?

£35 quid sounds like a lot, but one of them is a lot more value than a zero for £50 IMHO, if you've already got normal cams.

And they've got that `yay, now I can protect that route from the gritlist' appeal to them too.
 beardy mike 28 Mar 2008
In reply to Paz: I find them wicked good on those little dissolution pockets you get on lime where you can fiddle a micronut in, but it doesn't feel that secure because its just cartching on the lip of the pocket... a slidernut gets in there and uses the sidewalls and just fills the pocket... very very reassuring.

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...