UKC

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

wow....great effort!

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Simply incredible.

I'm getting pretty annoyed about kids climbing stuff I could only dream of!

In reply to galpinos:

and sorry to say but i think this illustrates the gulf in standards between "kids" in the UK compared to the rest of europe.







or maybe the grades are softer over there ;o

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Or maybe it doesn't rain quite so often. 32 8a+ could take a lifetime in blighty

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Very impressive!
However, the editor of that clip should be shot! Was there any need to reuse music from a 80s porn flic?? I don't think we can let them off just because their French, either.

J

In reply to James Moyle:

one per weekend and you would hit it in no time.

In reply to James Moyle:

On-sighting 32 8a+s in the UK would be most difficult due to the percentage of the country's routes at that grade that you'd not have to fluff, or have any beta on.

There are (about) 10 at Malham, 2 at Gordale, 8 at Kilnsey, and 4 at other crags. Rockfax list 26 in the peak, there are 3 Anstey's & probably about another 5 or so at LPT, Clwyd, Scotland etc.

Call that 60 routes. 64 to make it easy. You must on-sight effectively 50% of the countries F8a+s to succeed. Given that most people operating at that level will have say, done or been on Zoolook, bouldered the O.O.MTree start etc. I reckon you're stuffed.

That, or get to the continent.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

However, hats off to the lass. 'Twas not long ago I remember Yuji being the first person ever to achieve this grade on-sight.

In reply to S i'm on & on:

yes i had wondered if there were enough at that grade in england at least. are the uk youth comp climbers operating anywhere near Charlotte? i don't see why they shouldn't be close, say a few grades below, but have heard that some of them shun the real stuff in favour of plastic.

There was no mention of this in the report, but is she the first woman to onsight 8b+? Or did that fall to Josune B.?

In reply to S i'm on & on:


which shows how old (and forgetful) you're getting. Wasn't Ellie Chevieux the first person to onsight 8b+ (Massey Fergusson in the Calanques)?

The general level of onsight climbing in Europe is staggering. I got my first real taste of the new standard this Easter in a short trip to Terradets. There were several parties (male and female) who simply didn't fall off anything 8a or easier for the week I was there. What's more, they weren't exactly struggling, either.

In reply to orge:

I thought it had a bit of a Manhunter/synth feel to it, myself

In reply to Morgan Woods:

None of the uk youth climbers are operating at these levels. Only Steve McClure really operates at these levels. Dropping the grade a bit (to, say, 8a+ onsight), a respectable handful of british climbers have reached this level at some point in the past, although only two or three UK climbers are currently regularly managing 8a+ onsights.

I think the MAJOR advantages that have come in sport-onsighting have resulted from a vast improvement in endurance that the competitions have driven. This means a devotion to plastic is far from incompatible with top-level onsighting acheivements. Paxti Usobiaga is probably the best onsight climber around at the moment, and he shuns rock entirely during training/competing periods. However, British climbers have largely missed out on the vast improvements made in stamina training. Partly, it's the rock we have; british routes are often very bouldery, so stamina training seems of less utility. There are a whole host of other reasons too (government support, lack of a training culture, the "corrosive" influence of hard grit).

I was SO impressed by the level in Spain this easter that I have somewhat seen the light with regards to endurance training, so apologies to all those who can't get on the main wall at the foundry due to some speccy dwarf going up, down, up, down all night....

In reply to Morgan Woods:

Watched her climb at the Youth World Cup at ratho a couple of years ago (which she won) & the British climbers in the same category weren't even close! Either was anyone else right enuff

In reply to zachary lesch-huie:
Charlotte had onsighted harder than any other female a couple of years back at the amazing age of 15. Not sure now what grade that was, or if any woman has done a harder onsight since.

In reply to zachary lesch-huie:

Josune was the first woman to onsight 8b+ (Hidrofobia at Monstant). The same route was flashed by Katie Brown waaay back in 2000

Good (though old) article/interview here:
http://www.8a.nu/?IncPage=http%3A//www.8a.nu/%28htmnbwmtskj3033g1n1rvi45%29...

In reply to orge:
>

That's one class video. Loved it!

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Hmm, you appear to be right on this one. I was remembering Yuji/F8c in '99?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Can someone translate the route name "Putain Putain" for me? Is it what I think it is?

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

I have somewhat seen the light ..... up, down, ups are the way forward. Shame it's so feckin amazingly dull.

Drew attempted an up-down-up on the Leeds 'proper 8a' the other week. Frankly just starting with that idea as a possibility is rude.

In reply to Chris F:

yup

In reply to S i'm on & on:

if you find up-down-up's boring you could go with the patent-pending 800-move session. Recommended by David Macia (of training Ramon and Edu faim) the idea is, you guessed it, to do 800 moves in a session. That's the equivalent of 10 up-down-ups at the foundry, but done on 6-10 move boulder problems. You get a minute's rest between problems and a whole five minutes every 100 moves or so.

Totally brutal, and recommended as an introductory session for a climber coming back after a lay-off! Did I mention it was to be finished off with 5 pull- and push-ups?

I wonder where the euro-wads get their stamina from?

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

so that's 80 to 130-odd boulder problems at what sort of level?

Only 5 push ups?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Did you edit it?

J

In reply to orge:

It was pure cheez - very refreshing. Tacky effects with a great soundtrack - loved the explosion when she did the dyno.

Would sit well on the fatsloperaction website.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:


I think this where someone pipes up that they get it from good weather, completely ignoring the training mindset etc.

In reply to S i'm on & on:


Is this you pitching to have Zoolook upgraded to 8a+?

In reply to S i'm on & on:

oops. 50 push ups.

The level depends on what phase of the training you're in. I think the idea is to start easy and build the intensity up till your head explodes.

In reply to Tyler:

You can't onsight GBH if you've already done Zoolook.
Stu's harsh like that.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

You're assuming that this was a tongue-in-cheek production... However, I have it on good authority that our continental friends do not understand irony (I base this on my experiences of I living with a German and visiting France, twice).

J

In reply to Chris F: Ptain means "whore". It's what all French climbers shout when they fall of (and skiers when they hit a rock).

In reply to orge:

You are doing the assuming not me.

In reply to Morgan Woods:





What's the equivilant for trad? I imagine thier 'kids' wont climb many E9s, like that geeza tother week?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Just my tenpennorth. Amazing accomplishment....crap video. With that amount of cuts and "special effects" I could make it look like I'd climbed Equilibrium!! I know.....f@ck off sculptor!! That'd be my response too. But the video made it look like some kind of made up climb. I didn't get anything of the climb from it...... If you're going to record a climb of this calibre then I think it should be in real time and unedited. Give the climber the credit.....it's not the time to "think" you can get creative with the film....it detracts from the achievement. My opinion.

<gets coat and prepares to be flamed>

In reply to Serpico:
That IS harsh. 7a Glory moves only.....

In reply to midgets of the world unite:
Stu,
I can see we need to get you in the Slaithwaite 'Shed of ultimate destruction' and the soon to be constructed Menston 'Basement of diabolism'
Check out UKB boardshare...Chat with Si - and lets get it ON.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

8b+, is roughly equivalent to hard E8. 8c is thought to be roughly e9. By this measure Charlotte has onsighted E8 and done four E9's.

Roberto - that sounds a lot like putting my mouth where your moneys gone. Bring it on!

In reply to midgets of the world unite: i'd like to see Charlotte and Lucy Creamer climb together

In reply to midgets of the world unite:
Splendid. I'll get my people to talk to your people.

In reply to midgets of the world unite: is that taking into account gear?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: do you reckon she has a boyfriend? (i'm 17 not a dirty old man :P)

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Yep. There are precious few routes around to check out the theory, but the idea is that a very well protected e8 would be 8b or 8b+.

most British routes are not that well protected, so the French grades are lower. An example: the Big Issue is John Dunne's Pembroke super route. It gets E9, is a bit run out but not dangerous and French 8a or 8a+ if I'm feeling generous. I don't think it would give Mme Durif much pause for thought, to be honest.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Did you and Rob leave the fixed gear in any reasonable state though - didn't you break a wire?

It's a shame Chupacabra's now been downgraded since the `bomber' rock 8s been found otherwise it would surely be the E9 of choice.

In reply to midgets of the world unite and Franco:

Another example might be Mission Impossible in Ogwen which the first ascentionist said was E8 or 8b but I think that did rely on a fair amount of fixed gear.

I agree with Midgets point (which I have extrapolated so this might not have been his point at all!!) that we, in this country, tend to underestimate how well foreign climbers might do if asked to climb above gear rather than bolts.

In reply to Serpico:



I see the point Simon was making now, I thought he was giving Zoolook as an example of an 8a+

In reply to midgets of the world unite: But even on a safe E8, gear rip, takes time to place ect. bolts are bomber and easy to clip- surely a alot of differance??

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Franco - the Brits aren't the only people who can climb hard and bold trad climbing.

We aren't unique.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: iy. Still. I don't think you can really compare sport to trad tis like comparing trad to bouldering. The major part in trad is the risk. I never said the brits were the best, just that a few of us (not me) do climb quite hard, maybe as hard as this lass?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: I don't understand why people are dissing the "kids" in the UK. Joe Brown was putting up HVS/E1s when he was 17. John Allen put up E5 when he was 14. And just this year 16/17 year old Pete Whittaker has put up a couple of new E9s.

My point is that "kids" have, for long time, been at the cutting edge of UK climbing which is what we do over here...

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Yes you can. The definitions are getting blurred, especially between highball bouldering and single pitch trad both lead and solo. Sport climbing tactics are used on the hardest trad routes, it's called headpointing.


Managing risk.



What the heck are you trying to say?

Dead 'ard!

In reply to Mutl3y:

Who is dissing them?

Who are these people?

Morgan, Midgets, I wasn't taking names. You a bit in your response to Franco. I don't know if it's that easy to compare hard trad with hard sport climbing. I think E9 for a 16 year old is pretty impressive, even if it isn't onsight.

In reply to Mutl3y:

Nobody has onsighted E9.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I know.

In reply to Mutl3y: It's like to be a successful kid you have to climb harder than adults. It makes little sence to me. If the very best climbers are pottering about on E7s then surely a 15-17 year old climbing E5 is exceptional? The response people seem to get on here is one of hostility and the editor of the website being utterly pedantic about the achievement of youthes. (I am not talking about myself, but If I did climb hard then i'd be a bit pissed off that all people can say is 'our kids are shit compared to europe', when E9 is a massive achievement.)

In reply to Franco Cookson:


One person said that, the majority said nothing. UKClimbing.com celebrates and reports all great ascents especially by those under 20...check the news page

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/

Your comprehension skills are poor.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: amazingly i have had a look on the news pages- in my many hours on UKC. Still, tis a general trend I have picked up, that people seem to think of things as 'only E6'. I would like alot of these arm-chair critics to have a ganda at a proper E6. Still, like you say it is the minority of people- most are most congratulatory.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: impressive ascent, but I couldn't stand more than 30 seconds of that terrible video... awful... just wrong

In reply to Franco Cookson:

You've only got to look at the international meets organised by the BMC every year. The Euros are strong, used to running it out, used to taking falls, and have done a lot of climbing on big crags (not the mole hills we have). It's no wonder they get on E5s at the meets; they're only 7a after all. Brits abroad however are easy to spot: they're the ones trying to fiddle in wires between the bolts on F5s.

In reply to Serpico: maybe a slightly enhanced argument?

In reply to Franco Cookson:
No.

In reply to Mutl3y:

hello - i don't think i was "dissing" merely saying there is a gulf in standards which i think is true. i don't think you can compare trad and sport either, firstly as they are so different and also because there is enough sport climbing in the UK for comparison, there is a strong comp/bouldering scene here and tarn is only 2 hrs away....that being the case who are the young brits even close to being in the same league. if i was in charge of the bmc youth squad i would be asking those questions.

on a related note, it would be great if some young climbers in (say) france had a chance to come here and do some trad and vica versa.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Irony's not just lost on the European's... (please take note of this smiley, MIck)

J

In reply to Morgan Woods:

Not just the trad, I want to see Patxi, Ondra, et al on McLure's/Macelod's and Gaskin's routes/problems.

It's totally understandable that the European/American heroes don't make it to our isle - preferring destinations with more predictable conditions and a wealth of well known projects. However, it's a shame that these lines don't get more attention on a world stage. Mainly due to the effort the FA's have put into establishing them, but also because it's an important element in establishing where our athletes rank. Since so few international climbers play on our "turf", it's very difficult to put things in perspective - our lot are often playing away, whilst they are often at home.

I'm not suggesting that this means we have superior climbers; in fact, I feel that there is probably an ability gap between our top-end and the elite of Europe. However, it's difficult to come to a definitive conclusion without some cross-pollination.

J

In reply to Serpico:

LMAO ... so true

In reply to orge:

yeah i think the climbing here should attract more interest from the average euro punter not just mag articles about top end bold routes. i gather a lot of euros will probably make the trip to the us if they are keen to do trad but there's loads right here....(and not just grit).

In reply to orge: Lets be honest, the only routes that the top boys and girls will come to try are Ste Macs (Rainshadow, Overshadow etc) as they are sports routes. The problem is getting them in good condition. Which is difficult. Which is why they don't come over.

Andy F

In reply to orge:

You American or a European?

Irony is crap with a smiley, defeats the whole point.

This video is even funnier if the person who edited it and added the music did it without irony. It should win an award.

It's a keeper.

In reply to John2:

What I thought. Ta. Great name.

In reply to orge:


I'm climbing with an Aussie who knows the Fossey (?) brothers through the Sydney scene and they went to Sheffield and did all the hard grit stuff very quickly. It seems to show that people who get very strong sport climbing, but still know one end of a cam from the other by doing some trad climbing can adapt to UK climbing very well and very quickly. But I'm sure that loads of obviously hugely talented British "keen youth" tradders if they got the chance to spend a year in the South of France would pretty soon blasting through lots of hard sport. Talent and drive is central where ever you're from, but how you use it will be shaped by local conditions.

Doing an Erasmus year at Grenoble University would seem the obvious thing to do for many Brits!

In reply to TobyA:

Wise words Toby, and very true. Youngsters like the whittakers have all the talent they need to be great in whatever climbing discipline they apply themselves to. My point above is more that getting good for UK trad climbing, and especially grit, doesn't 'cross-pollinate' and allow you to go abroad and match the sport level of the european youngsters. Getting fit and strong enough to onsight 8b+ will, however, be of significant help when climbing hard trad.

Franco, don't get the impression I'm dissing the british youth. Climbing E6 at 16 or so is impressive, yes. I'm simply pointing out that there's a massive gulf PHYSICALLY between our best youths and the best european youths. Put simply, the best kids ARE better than the best climbers; Adam Ondra (15?) and Charlotte Durif (17) are both setting the world standard. I don't bang on about this to put people down, more to make the point that if you truly want to excel, don't neglect physical training.

And don't get too hung up on the fact that trad gear isn't as sound as bolts. On many cliffs there's not that much difference, and probably more opportunities for trad gear than bolts in a sport route of equivalent length. It's also a point that is often missed by the visiting euro-wad.

Arnaud Petit is a perfect example. Famously he once said he didn't like training on sport cliffs, because he got scared climbing on bolts. When he came over for the international meet in Wales he was quite happy bimbling up gogarth E5's, because he knew he wouldn't fall off. Now, he's a fully fledged trad wad, in the style of our own John Arran.

Lastly - Paz, don't know where that rumour came from. We left the route in the style we found it.

In reply to TobyA:

that's the Cossey bro's.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:


I have a feeling that the group who would need most convincing of this are actually the parents. It's one thing to trust your child to come to no harm clipping bolts, it's another to trust them to their own gear. When they get to Charlotte's age now, parental opinions may not count for much, but how many mums let their 12 year old (for example) daughters push their grade leading trad?

In reply to Mutl3y:

I don't understand why pointing out the obvious difference in sport climbing standards makes any statement on the impressiveness or otherwise of Pete climbing the direct start to the braille trail. It was an awesome effort and one I'm blown away by.

You're point is that kids are, and have been at the cutting edge of UK climbing. I agree with that. However, it's easy to say that it's enough to be at the cutting edge of UK climbing, but if the cutting edge of UK trad climbing is a long way from the cutting edge of world climbing, is that worth thinking about, or talking about on a climbing chat forum? I think it is. So is UK trad climbing that far behind?

I think it's quite easy to compare UK trad climbing to sport climbing, especially if you are less grit-centric in your view of what UK trad climbing is (Joe Brown, John Allen, etc). I don't think there's much difference between contintental style sport climbing and a reasonably protected pembroke or gogarth route, for example. I think the best sport climbers would tear these routes apart. Maybe half of them wouldn't like the extra uncertainty etc, but I'd wager half of them wouldn't mind too much, and the physical level is just nothing to them. Remember, Charlotte has onsighted more than 30 routes as hard as the Big Issue.

It's also easy to assume that sport climbing isn't bold. Some of the multi-pitch trad routes in the Alps have run outs that would turn your bowels. Alex Huber's Bellavista is 8c on poor pegs. Adam Ondra recently climbed the 150m "Zub za Zub" (a four pitch 8b+) in the mountains in a single push, with no pre-practise. These kids are absolutely sky-high in terms of standards, and I think it behoves us to recognise that, rather than hiding behind a "yeah, but what have they done on Stanage" attitude.

Having said that, I do think Grit is a special case. It requires a different balance of skills than most other trad climbing, skewed firmly towards technical skill and confidence, and well away from strength and fitness. I do think we excel at this form of climbing, and it's far less certain that visting euro-wads will be able to take to grit climbing. Some do though (Gerhard Horharger, for example onsighted Ulyssess on a hot day in June!).

In reply to gingerkate:

I'm sure you're right. Especially given that many kids are supremely (over)confident in their abilities and somewhat flippant about the corresponding risk.

In reply to Morgan Woods:


Sorry, got them mixed up with some large primates in the fog.

Midgets - Petit isn't just a trad wad, he was the ice climbing world champion at one point (plus I'm in love with his wife). Petit is clearly the French MacLeod, or perhaps Dave is the British Petit!?

Franco - after watching a strong french lad repeatedly taking big lobs onto a number 3 wire as he tried to headpoint an 8a+ overhanging finger crack called "Butterarms" at Paradiset, Lofoten, I greatly re-evaluated my idea that sport climbers are strong but not brave. You can teach a strong sport climber to place good gear in a couple of days, you can't teach a weak trad climber how to climb, say, 7b in the same time.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:


And look at Josune name-that-I-can't-spell, who last year just decided trad climbing in the mountains was more fun and started putting up multi-pitch 8as and harder (IIRC) on trad gear in the Ordessa gorge in the Pyrenees - stuff that I would imagine would have to be in the E8-E9 range?

In reply to TobyA:

yes....and i guess it's unlikely that any brits will be jumping to get over and repeat them.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

OK then accustion withdrawn, it came from distortion caused by a bad case of ear wax in myself.

I like what your'e saying but are you not overstating what foreigners would achieve on gear if they came here a little?

Allow me to distinguish between safe trade routes of all grades (i.e. stamina routes) and normal British trad routes and sport routes.

One category's onsightable, and the other I'd go so far as to say can be unonsightable by a normal climber operating at that grade (without doing what Yuji's mates did on White Zombie for him and chalking everything up and putting the clips in - I've been doing that for people recently). I don't care how strong or how fit you are you can't hold on to nothing and you can't slap for what's not there and to do a route like that at its grade you have to use a good sequence. You can put your feet where you bloody like of course, when you're hanging off a jug. Now the breakthrough comes when you realise it's possible to onsight a 7a+ badly but quickly at 7b, and doing this is more likely than you taking ages over it and actually do it at 7a+. And then you ask if you succeeded at the onsight then was it such a bad sequnce afterall? Maybe this is what you do in comps as well as torture yourself and complain about the lack of funding.

However the meat of the grade of many of the second category of routs, boils down to a short crux section, and it's really unlikely that someone's going to muddle through this the wrong way. Most of our routes aren't that steep either, so they've got much smaller holds than a more typical steeper european route of the same grade. So slapping for these is harder because they're harder to spot. I don't believe anyone is going to operate on the technical cruxes of these routes at any significant level by climbing statically - trying to static everything held back the Brits in the leading comps for years, after Moffat, Nadin and Vickers.

Nut fiddling on 5s aside (I heard someone describe the top HS traverse pitch of Amptrax as E1!) some of us Brits still do pretty well i Europe when we go over there. OK we've only done one 9a abroad so far, but it was possibly the hardest one. I think our best and youngest would match their best and youngest no problem if they lived there. But our best and youngest with honourable exceptions aren't bowling me over by their tales of derring adventure climbing do no matter how many E9s/10s they've headpointed. Maybe they just don't want to. And of course maybe I'm wrong. But I do ask you given that, why are we so quick to assume the Euros could come over here and tear down all our E6s and 7s? Oh, they just have to get over the head problems of climbing on gear. How many trad grades could any of us improve by if we could get our heads in gear as simply?
Could's all very well, but I'm more interested in what -would- actually happen.

Are these wonder kids very strong at bouldering yet - they will get strong if they put their minds to it I have no doubt, but at the moment how strong ad how technically good are they really? Divide your answer by the number of moves on dreamtime before you reply too quickly. Incidentally people who've climbed a lot at font (Sheffield's secret weapon) have always done well on the grit.

Cool to hear about Arnaud Petit anyway!

In reply to billy no-mates:

Charlotte Durif onsighted Leon F8b+ at Les Concluses this last week. That is what the news item is about.

In reply to Paz:
>


http://www.climbmagazine.com/classic-articles.aspx?t=6&id=759cbe94-8244...

This is fairly typical of what average Euros (not uber wads) get up to on the intl' meets.

In reply to Mick Thread Nazi - UKClimbing.com:

Which prompted a discussion of what she might acheive on UK trad. That is what this thread has become.

In reply to Serpico:

Shame noone belayed that Russian on an E6, we'll neve know if he was bluffing. But trade E4s and a classic E5 6a. Good effort on their first UK trip but that's hardly burning off the locals is it? Haven't had time to read it in detail, sorry.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Aware of that Stu, I was replying to 'billy no mates' who made comments about 'not news', which he has now deleted. He was referring to the old video.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Shame, that ruins the thread-nazi joke.

In reply to Paz:
Who mentioned anything about burning off the locals?

In reply to Serpico:

I didn't really think it through or refine it but I thought the point of my post was that us getting burnt off wasn't going to happen, because I think someone else hinted that would happen if all the euro-wads simply came over here and were supplied with a set of wires each.

Apologies if you just posted that link for my entertainment - it was good.

In reply to Paz: Serpico's post was saying what normal Euros did when they came over, perhaps it's dangerous to extrapolate in this situation, but you might think that the uberwads could do better?

In reply to midgets of the world unite:
indoor training in france and spain has been developed very much along the lines of convenience,money available etc.But what i saw in france accepted that cosmetic appearance of walls were less important than facilities supporting well accepted training principles that apply whatever grade people climb at.Think in england we have never grasped this-or have lost the plot a bit....I remember Neil Carson and Ian Vickers saying this more or less-that was back in the mid/late 90s.
I saw a regional difficulty team train in SW france on a wet day in june-they were all training on 100 move 8a circuits then the next day going onsighting outdoors somewhere......then going to another wall to try more circuits etc etc.

In reply to Robertostallioni:


I get that now, that's funny

In reply to witnessthis:
But what i saw in france accepted that cosmetic appearance of walls were less important than facilities supporting well accepted training principles that apply whatever grade people climb at.

Of course, walls here pander to peoples egos, not their training needs. That's why we have steep walls plastered in jugs when the vast majority of climbing outside (including our hardest sport routes) is just off vertical and crimpy.

In reply to Serpico:
Does that mean that all my struggling to get up main wall routes... following my stronger, better partners ... is a waste of time and I'd be better sticking to the sidewalls??? I assumed there had to be some advantage to training on steep stuff indoors, that then translated to outside gains, despite the fact that it looks totally different to outside. Every I know who is any 'good' trains on the steep stuff, so doesn't that mean training on the steep stuff is teh way to get better?

In reply to gingerkate:

Not really, it will help but bouldering (outside or inside) is the real secret, if you can get a good base level of strength in the ball park of your chosen route goals, the endurance will come naturally outside in a few weeks on real routes on real rock, three times faster than steep plastic jug pulling. I'm sure it has some effect but its nowhere specific enough for outside rock skills where body tension is all important. Standing on jugs on plywood overhangs does not really help this, you need smaller smears and edges.

In reply to gingerkate:
It's good to mix it up, but the basic rule of adaptation is that you get good at what you do most. If that's yarding on jugs on steep ground then it's going to have little transfer to locking down on crimps and standing on smears on vertical stuff. The style of climbing changes with angle as well: steep stuff is more about twisting and pulling holds in towards the chest, vertical is about locking down to the shoulder. Do the majority of your training on no more than a few degrees steeper than what you want to improve on outside.

In reply to Serpico:

I agree, but only to a point. I think that you should do what you enjoy most. For me that's 'yarding up overhangs'. If I spent ages training on vertical (or god forbid slabby) walls, I would go insane as I really don't enjoy this type of climbing.

Also, what you propose is a good plan for UK limestone - maybe GK is off to Kalymnos, Hueco or even Bishop for that matter.

In reply to gingerkate:

I'd say so, doing up down up on vertical and just over can replicate a trad pump and must be beastly for it, but the steep juggy routes always look like too much fun to resist to me.

Almost everyone I know who's better than me indoors at pulling on jugs on steep stuff, or even on no jugs on the hard stuff isn't that much better than me on regular routes outdoors. I either blame my igorance and criminal modesty or technical incompetence on their part.

I don't know if I've ever onsighted a steep juggy 7a indoors, but outdoors that's a warm up.

I'd echo what people say about the foot holds being too big . The grades of indoor slab routes ar so far overgraded to anyone with any idea about footwork it;s embarassing. I know climbing in fontainebleau's said to be a sequence of resting positions, but that was a deep statement about technical brilliance we can only aspire to, it's not a principle climbing wall owners are should to make real in their route setting on slabs. I think you get a specific strength on foot holds that are as big as your average screw on, but even then a lot of indoor screw ons haven't been cleaned in years - they only need a bit of water and a brush and with clean boots on mny problems become doable.

In reply to Jenn:

I make a distinction between indoor bouldering which is good training for pretty much everything (steep or not) as you tend to use smaller footholds on harder stuff at steep angles, and indoor routing. Indoor bouldering will be good for Hueco and Bishop and believe it or not Kalymnos too as you can build endurance into the equation pretty quickly. I reckon jug pulling on routes will not help much for Kalymnos either as you will simply not have enough body tension due to standing on large plastic jugs.

A good plan is to get fit outside on routes during the summer and then just boulder indoors/ outside throughout winter and then top up the fitness at the start of the season. If you have been fit in the past, this comes back amazingly quickly in a few weekends. Better than indoor routing anyday plus you'll improve much more quickly pushing the technical envelope bouldering.

In reply to Jenn:

"Do the majority of your training on no more than a few degrees steeper than what you want to improve on outside."

In reply to teddy:

I'm one of those odd people who only ever boulders indoors and out

In reply to Serpico:

So what's a few degrees steeper than a roof

In reply to Jenn:

An arch :p

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Ps: well done Charlotte!

In reply to Jenn:

Oi, don't try to be clever, I'm trying to assist ppl in devising a training strategy to suit their needs. If you want to be flippant, go down the pub! ;0)

In reply to Jenn and Serpico and Paz and teddy:
I wish I was off to Kalymnos, Hueco, or even Bishop! As it is it's a big treat to even get to Gigg South, but nevermind, I'm going to keep training with my eyes set firmly on the day I no longer have to be home for 2.40 like some sad vampire with her clock set to the wrong time zone

As Jenn and Paz say, the steep stuff is too much fun to resist, and as I've only recently got strong enough to get on it properly, I'm enjoying myself too much to give it up because it's so totally different, it's a novelty and on it I'm a novice again.

But I'll try and do a combination, go back to doing more on the vertical and near vertical walls. I've a feeling that my fingers have lost some strength through not doing anything hard and vertical.

I'd boulder indoors as teddy suggests, but I hate indoor bouldering :oS

In reply to Serpico:
I guess what i am talking about is a broader perspective really ie having facilities that a climber can have access to that supports TRAINING as opposed to going down the wall and doing a few rts possibly well set or not.At the Red river gorge a few years ago i climbed with plenty of people from all over the east(some very rock starved).One owned one of the largest rock gyms in that part of the USA(pittsburgh?) and explained how they would try and reflect climbers needs-performance rts and training rts(ie pure endurance+cruxy).They also built a bouldering cave with fixed holds but also had a bouldering wall with changing problems.All in a space about the size of the foundry-maybe smaller.The idea was to make the facilities as good for your climbing as poss as the good crags were far far away.
I personally think that walls should reflect this but generally noone seems that bothered-hence we have lots of potential(both personal and in facilities) that remain lost in the ether.....a shame.

In reply to Chris F:

Great route name, is there an equivalent in the UK?
such as:
"Oh SH**, oh SH**!!!!"