UKC

Scotland's first ground up grade X

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Luke 19 Nov 2002
"The technical difficuties included several dynos, a heel hook and the use of one arm pull ups"

'kin 'ell! Fair play lads - good effort!
GFoz 19 Nov 2002
In reply to Luke:

fuq me
Fort Person 19 Nov 2002
In reply to Luke:

Where?
 MJH 19 Nov 2002
In reply to Fort Person: Lochnagar, up an E3 called Crazy Sorrow....sounds absolutely mental
Fort Person 19 Nov 2002
In reply to MJH:

Wow! Who were the protractors?
 MJH 19 Nov 2002
In reply to Fort Person: alan mullin and steve lynch (?)...there's a bit on the UKClimbing News page

Mike
Kevin Neal 19 Nov 2002
In reply to Luke: Aye but this is the route he was on the week before on the gar so I was told....

from a very reliable source.

Kevin Neal 19 Nov 2002
In reply to Kevin Neal: good effort mind you!
Dr Jamie 19 Nov 2002
In reply to Luke:

jeez
OP God 19 Nov 2002
In reply to Dr Jamie:

Excuse me chaps, but I'd like to remind you that Winter has in fact yet to begin ! I know, because I have the controls. Lochnagar over the past week could at best have been described as 'pleasantly autumnal' therefore any attempt to claim successful endeavours into winter adventure cannot possibly be sustained.

Local sources also inform me that a number of pieces of fixed protection have been firmly attached to the roof of said route for over two years now - the result of previous (but unsuccessful) investigations by said first winter ascentionist.

You winter climbers really are a funny bunch - now you want to be autumn climbers as well ? I suspect the next, somewhat ungentlemanly step is to practice your ridiculous wacking and scratching on my crags in the summer months.

I suppose if that's what you're into, then good luck to you, but don't expect a gratis pass into Heaven's VIP lounge for Sporting Endeavour ! Those hallowed halls are reserved for our true pioneering adventurers.

Oh, and by the way, isn't it about time you all learned that climbing and mountaineering is a 'handicap' sport, and that any concept of 'difficulty' will always be relative ?

Perhaps not.
OP d hunter 19 Nov 2002
In reply to God: listen fool lochan has been in superb nick on and off since october. we have the photos to prove it.
OP God 19 Nov 2002
In reply to d hunter:

My dear Child, you seem somewhat peturbed ! Perhaps you have first hand knowledge of this ascent to which no others are privvy ?

The NE coire of Lochnagar is a very different place to the northern corries of Cairngorm, and all the more so the Tough Brown Face, which is notoriously slow to come into winter condition. The base of this crag is around 2500 ft, and the coire itself unusually protected from the wind. Only when the wind blows strong from the north - with snow in the air - do the steep, slabby rocks get properly plastered. Even then the crag is not 'in condition' as such (although perhaps it is at least justifiably wintry) as several very strong teams have found out at their own expense in recent years.

Anyway, no need to get personal My Son, I was only showing my lighter side.

One thing is for sure - I am no fool.
OP d hunter 19 Nov 2002
In reply to God: listen, as far as im concerned you dont exist.
your blether applied to everywhere not just to lochnagar.
anyway... were you there? Only the two who climbed it know. if you were there and saw the cliff wasnt in then your comments have some foundation. otherwise you are guessing.
Im a little sick of this mullin-carping. I dont know the man but why does everything he does come in for so much stick?
Mind you Im not saying the route was definitely in either but only those in the corrie on the day will know.
yours atheistically d
 Mark Stevenson 19 Nov 2002
In reply to Luke: Whatever happened to the good old days of hard grade V?

Is it just me or is the Scottish climbing tradition of reserved understatement now sadly waning? Are the 'good' old days of activists describing desperate new routes as 'nae too bad' or at worst 'a wee bit tricky' now long gone?

Am I the only one to appreciate the slight irony of top climbers modestly underplaying their hand? We all know that if Mick Fowler had climbed it, he would proabably have graded it as something like hard grade VII,8 and made a couple of off-hand comments about a couple of powerful moves.

Good effort to the lads in question - but they are leaving themselves wide open to critism by trying to give it an accurate grade. If they want massive publicity (and undoubtedly a lot of adverse comments) then grading it X is the way to go. However if they would prefer the long term respect of the British climbing community and a little less hassle, a bit of tactical modesty might not go amiss.

This probably shouldn't be the case but climbing isn't really a logical pursuit and has stacks of ethical and historical baggage.

Mark
Es 19 Nov 2002
In reply to Luke: Fowler would have given it "solid V" had he done it, just like he does all his harder routes, but then it's not really the sort of route that Fowler would do (winter ascent of a summer line). Lets face it though, as such grades as these are above what has been done before and there is a rough consensus for (up to VIII?) why not say "it was very hard" and leave it to get repeated a few times before a grade is agreed. Or just don't grade it at all and keep some adventure in it.
Stac Pollaidh 19 Nov 2002
In reply to God:
> Local sources also inform me that a number of pieces of fixed protection have been firmly attached to the roof of said route for over two years now - the result of previous (but unsuccessful) investigations by said first winter ascentionist.

Check oot High Dec. 2000.. fixed gear clearly visible.
Climbed 9 days after the "very first attempt"?? certainly not. wonder whit gashmedia.corp has to say for itself, and who wrote that anyway?
Bob Dulieu 19 Nov 2002
In reply to God:
> (In reply to Dr Jamie)
>
> Lochnagar over the past week could at best have been described as 'pleasantly autumnal'

Erm.. not on Sunday it wasnt. Granted the turf was a smidge less than deep frozen but the rocks were plastered and the neve was fine. There only seemed to be me and one other team on the cliffs and it felt wintery to me.

But what does a grit man know.
Simon1000 19 Nov 2002
In reply to Bob Dulieu:

An E3 climbed under marginal winter conditions. Whatever next the first winter ascent of Left Wall or if really ambitious, Resurrection on the Cromlech.
 Paz 19 Nov 2002
In reply to Mark Stevenson:

It'd be great if he did but isn't Muillin sponsored?
 James Edwards 19 Nov 2002
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
well grades are only ever apporximates anyway. it took a while for the VI/VII/VIII boundr to be sorted (and the VII/VIII boundry is still a bit weh-hay) (actually as is the VIII/IX). (and probably all the rest come to think of it). i think that youve got to have a stab and then it can be adjusted in a few years (decades?) or become the bench mark that other are judged on.
its quite an interesting symbolic threshhold, X., perhaps like the F9a and the 4minitue mle (well actually nothing like the four minute mile come to think of it as nobody argued with Norris McWerter)
anyone know if the winter ascent has a name?
Stac Pollaidh 19 Nov 2002
In reply to God:
how autumnal were conditions oan Beinn a' Bhuird a few weekends ago?
OP Huw Davies 20 Nov 2002
In reply to God:
The only people who can comment on conditions in the Corrie are those who were there. If people were not there on the day, watching the ascent, then they are guessing.
OP d hunter 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Simon1000:
> (In reply to Bob Dulieu)
>
> An E3 climbed under marginal winter conditions. Whatever next the first winter ascent of Left Wall or if really ambitious, Resurrection on the Cromlech.

and why not, if theyre in nick...
OP d hunter 20 Nov 2002
In reply to d hunter: oh yes, and how do you know it was marginal? were you there?
OP Huw 20 Nov 2002
In reply to d hunter:
Dave
I like Simon 1000s idea, fancy N.Wales rather than Scotland next weekend?
OP d hunter 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Huw: why not, given conditions of course...
shouldnt you be teaching or doing something constructive?
OP Huw 20 Nov 2002
In reply to d hunter:
Break time.
OP Anonymous 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
>
> Is it just me or is the Scottish climbing tradition of reserved understatement now sadly waning? Are the 'good' old days of activists describing desperate new routes as 'nae too bad' or at worst 'a wee bit tricky' now long gone?
>
> Am I the only one to appreciate the slight irony of top climbers modestly underplaying their hand?

What a load of toss. This idea of deliberatley undergrading routes for an ego massage is stupid. Routes should be given the 'correct grade' to deliberately undergrade them is the act of a moron.
OP oops forgot the comma - sorry 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Anonymous:
Routes should be given the 'correct grade', to deliberately undergrade them is the act of a moron.
 Jamie B 20 Nov 2002
In reply to oops forgot the comma - sorry:

I think a semi-colon would actually have been more appropriate.

JAMIE B>
 Glen 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Jamie B.: Here, here for grammar...
GFoz 20 Nov 2002
In reply to oops forgot the comma - sorry:

'correct grade'

No such thing. Arbitrary sub-cultural construct with no objective semantic content. imosho.

G
Chris Thorpe 20 Nov 2002
In reply to GFoz:

Okay, so routes should be given the correct arbitrary sub-cultural construct with no objective semantic content.

And your point is?
OP Anonymous 20 Nov 2002
In reply to d hunter:
why does noone like mullin, well ask unfortunate young climber who replied to his request for a partner on this site and so climbed with him on Hells Lum last year, mullin throwing his rubbish away round crag, sticking his crampons through young climbers new rope,. being very obnoxious generally. before that day mullin was young lads hero, at end of day young lad felt like giving up climbing, yeah yeah mullins a nice guy, so misunderstood
 James Edwards 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Anonymous:
actually i haven't seen much of you since that faited day. are you still in edinburgh? are you up for a big season this year. email me directly for a chat (will be on the computer for the next couple of hours)
jamese
OP d hunter 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Anonymous: was it you. why are you anonymous...
GFoz 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Chris Thorpe:

Correct and arbitrary next next to each other - bit of a contradiction innit?

Actually you missed the obvious flaw - ALL semantics expressions are arbitrary, the rules of language (including the language of climbing grades) are descriptive not prescriptive.

There is no absolute meaning to Grade X any more than there is to any word....

G
GFoz 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Anonymous:
> (In reply to d hunter)
> why does noone like mullin, well ask unfortunate young climber who replied to his request for a partner on this site and so climbed with him on Hells Lum last year, mullin throwing his rubbish away round crag, sticking his crampons through young climbers new rope,. being very obnoxious generally. before that day mullin was young lads hero, at end of day young lad felt like giving up climbing, yeah yeah mullins a nice guy, so misunderstood

One of my mates got in touch with him through a site (poss this one) one summer. Didn't realise who it was at first. It was midsummer so he was suggesting doing a classic rock route on the Ben (which will remain nameless) but my mate realised that he was doing a scoping exercise and would prob return that winter to scratch it to shit.

made his excuses and dropped out.

G
OP andrea 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Luke:
Hiya, is there something such as an official winter accent season? When does it start and end?
OP Anonymous 20 Nov 2002
In reply to andrea: What's a winter accent, is that when your lips freeze and you can't talk properly? Only kidding. No official season in UK, there is in the alpes, here it's just when deemed to be "in".
GFoz 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Anonymous:

When I did Taxus I had problems on the belays with eyelashes freezing to gether but I don't think thats too unusual....
G
 Offwidth 20 Nov 2002
In reply to GFoz:

Can I quote you on that in my web page description of grades for my low grade grit database I'm launching very soon.?
OP andrea 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Anonymous:
Sounds like some of you are spending too much time exposing your brains to those wintry north faces(yes, I can kid too). Anyway would love to know if the GradeX claim is justified. But the answer is obviously been blown away by the wind (and a lot of hot air).
Chris Thorpe 20 Nov 2002
In reply to GFoz:
> (In reply to Chris Thorpe)
>
> Correct and arbitrary next next to each other - bit of a contradiction innit?

You may have misunderstood - I was taking the p*ss. Of course it's possible that you also were...

> Actually you missed the obvious flaw - ALL semantics expressions are arbitrary, the rules of language (including the language of climbing grades) are descriptive not prescriptive.
>
> There is no absolute meaning to Grade X any more than there is to any word....

No. but consensus exists. If words have no shared meaning then it would be stupid trying to use them to communicate. In the context of current scottish winter grades it's incorrect to eg. give Citadel grade V, just as in English it's incorrect to use the word "red" to describe something blue.

God I'm bored...
OP d hunter 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Chris Thorpe: what if you are colour blind. why are you not justifying the absurd salary you are paid...
GFoz 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Offwidth:

what the point about semantics or my frozen eyelashes??

If latter I would like a bit of time to phrase it more carefully !

G
GFoz 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Chris Thorpe:

If words have no shared meaning then it would be stupid trying to use them to communicate.

Read the incessant grading debates on this site. Stupid's the word!!

just as in English it's incorrect to use the word "red" to describe something blue.

Ah. Now thats where its a very bad idea to start talking to a philosophy grad.

Red and blue are (qv John Locke) NOT qualities of an object itself but secondary qualities which the object stimulates IN YOU. And as all mental states are necessarily private (ontologically subjective is the technical term - a lovely phrase imho) you can't compare my 'red' with your 'red'. So if correction is impossible what does 'correct' mean ?

OP Huw 20 Nov 2002
In reply to GFoz:
I think you're on the wrong site, this one's about winter climbing. (Doubtless you'll have something else I can't be bothered to read to say about this posting.)
Chris Thorpe 20 Nov 2002
In reply to d hunter: then I'd suggest hiring an assistant to tell the difference. And my merely adequate salary is scant compensation for life in the godforsaken flat wastelands...
 GrahamD 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Chris Thorpe:

Bad day at the office, Chris ? see you later for a pint of flat southern piss.
OP Anonymous 20 Nov 2002
In reply to d hunter:
no it was not me, but the lad told me, stories true. Im anonymous and hes anonymous, because he would not like me telling you, but I thought you should know
 Offwidth 20 Nov 2002
In reply to GFoz:

Semantics.

I'll be trying to say grades arent real so dont get too hung up, but guides if they include them may as well try to be consistent in what they are trying to indicate.
GFoz 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Offwidth:

Aye its all true. Mind you the numer of times I've railed against grade creep....

G
Chris Thorpe 20 Nov 2002
In reply to GFoz:

> And as all mental states are necessarily private (ontologically subjective is the technical term - a lovely phrase imho) you can't compare my 'red' with your 'red'. So if correction is impossible what does 'correct' mean ?

But I can compare my red with yours, operationally. If we stand side by side and look at various objects we can agree or disagree on whether they are red or not. Granted that doesn't tell us much about mental states, but it's enough to establish that my understanding of "red" matches yours to a sufficient degree for communication. Now if a third person points to an object we both agree is clearly "blue" and calls it "red", then on our terms he is incorrect and we can tell him so.

I'm not really interested in running philosophical rings. The mere fact we're are having a conversation is enough evidence that we share a working understanding of the meaning of (at least most of) the words we're using. If I said "Cows live in the sea" or "Kuhn was a Positivist" you'd say I was wrong. Right?
GFoz 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Chris Thorpe:

But I can compare my red with yours, operationally.

That's the behviourist view - all that 'seeing red' is is pointing at something and saying red.

I think that 'cow' has no absolute meaning - there is just a class of objects we genreally have a consensus around that belong in a subset of objects we call cows.

Only words with absolute meaning are axiomatic ones eg: circle???????

Maybe this isn't the time or place - feel free to e-mail and continue this one off line if you don't want to upset the likes of Huw (Wittgenstein said that if a lion spoke we could not understand what it said. Same for the Welsh I guess.....)


G
Simon1000 20 Nov 2002
In reply to d hunter:
> (In reply to Simon1000)
> [...]
>
> and why not, if theyre in nick...


Yeah sounds good. We can then progress to doing some F8a routes at Raven Tor when it gets a bit icy down in Derbyshire.



Chris Thorpe 20 Nov 2002
In reply to GFoz:

> That's the behviourist view - all that 'seeing red' is is pointing at something and saying red.

No, there's more to it than that, I'm just suggesting there are objective ways to make comparisons of subjective notions.

> I think that 'cow' has no absolute meaning - there is just a class of objects we genreally have a consensus around that belong in a subset of objects we call cows.
>
> Only words with absolute meaning are axiomatic ones eg: circle???????

Yep, agreed. I think we're converging here.

> Wittgenstein said that if a lion spoke we could not understand what it said. Same for the Welsh I guess.....

The later Wittgenstein I take it... didnt' somebody once say he could spend an afternoon distinguishing six different senses of the word 'wheelbarrow'?

I'll shut up now Huw.
Chris Thorpe 20 Nov 2002
In reply to GrahamD:
> see you later for a pint of flat southern piss.

I'll take you up on that Graham.

OP d hunter 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Simon1000: well it would have to be rimed up rather than a bit icy but youre on the right track.
 yer maw 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Luke: THREAD POLICE HERE

keep to the point instead of the interpersonal crap the two of you are spewin on aboot the noo
GFoz 20 Nov 2002
In reply to yer maw:

I throw petrol bombs and flick the v's at the thread police.
Simon1000 20 Nov 2002
In reply to d hunter:
> (In reply to Simon1000) well it would have to be rimed up rather than a bit icy but youre on the right track.



I was worried you'd say that!
OP InCorrie 20 Nov 2002
In reply to Huw Davies:
I'm a local to Lochnag and was in the Corrie on Sunday for a stomp to check out conditions and have a ski on the tops. I observed one team on the Tough Brown Face, in the right vacinity for the line. I have yet to find a post as to what day the route was climbed, to know if this was definately Mullin. To allow others to judge if this was Mullin - The leader was established above the main roof in small grove below a subsiduary bluge guarding the upper cracks at about 12.30-1.00pm. The leader had a white petzl meteor helmet. His second was belayed 10-15ft to rightside of the underlying turf ledge and was wearing a worn orange insulated jacket. I'll describe the conditions and leave it for others to judge, as I don't climb hard enough to comment.

Corrie In General.
Overall limited snow, very bottom of the corrie just before the pull up to the box lacked snow. Reasonable snow in the broader shallower gullies and on lower angled ridges (e.g. Central Buuttress). What snow was present in the gullies was very hard neve. The main classics such as Gaints Head, Polyphemus, Parallel A were very bare and devoid of Ice. Raeburns Black Spout had very good solid neve. Corrie had a limited dusting of snow from the day before.

Buttresses
The Buttresses were very lightly covered only turning truely white with rime in thier upper half/ third, even then the rime was thin and where exposed to sunlight was breaking away. e.g.the Base of Black Spout Buttress was definately ' in' while the top was being stripped by the sun . All/many of the rock features, including cracks, were still clearly visable through this thin covering. The lower part of Tough Brown was predominantly grey not white and was very thinnly iced or bare rather than rimed. But it was definately frozen and was not wet at all. Mullin cannot be critised for climbing sections of wet rock as he was on the Dual, for there was no wet rock at all. Rimming increased upwards. Axe sounds in the grove above the overhang suggests some ice or at least solid turf. Most of the exposed turf I encountered was solid.

The plateau was almost completely covered with hard neve/snow, good for ski touring.....I had a good time

Sron 20 Nov 2002
In reply to InCorrie:

My God, someone who was actually in the vicinity. Now where's AM lurking...?
OP Huw Davies 21 Nov 2002
In reply to InCorrie:
From your description the conditions sound boarder line, but I was not there, you were. From where you were did the line they were on look white enough to be a true winter ascent? (I'm assuming not given your description of the Tough Brown area.)
Nigel 25 Nov 2002
In reply to Simon1000:
> (In reply to d hunter)
> [...]

We can then progress to doing some F8a routes at Raven Tor when it gets a bit icy down in Derbyshire.

Thats what they do in Canada
Removed User 25 Nov 2002
In reply to Luke:

The 'route' may have been 'ground up' but it wasn't 'top out'. Two pitches were done, the first pitch of Mort and the new pitch over the roof. The party then abbed off.

Don't know why they didn't finish the route but it seems to reduce to one practiced pitch given that AM was reputedly dismissive of the first pitch.

In condition yes, impressive no doubt, harder than I'll ever be able to climb certainly, but there's a saying about feet of clay...
Adrian 25 Nov 2002
In reply to GFoz:
Physicist top-trumps philosopher any day. You can compare my "red" with your "red". There isn't (yet[0]) much point trying to compare the internal states of my neural net and your neural net, but it is easy to consider the eye as a null instrument and study the conditions under which two stimuli are indistinguishable. It turns out that, for almost everyone, (any) three lamps are sufficient to create a unique sensation of colour - that is, given 3 lamps, one person can create an arbitrary colour and given three identical lamps a second person can match that colour. There are a couple of exceptions; to match a full colour gamut (particularly certain purples) you may need negative chromaticity components, and things get a bit messed up for colour blind people (either with a low sensitivity to certain colours or dichromatic[1]) or tetrachromats[2]. See Feynman(1963), Lectures on Physics, I, Ch. 35-36 for a very readable overview of the subject.

[0] Give it a couple of decades and development of high-sensitivity SQUIDs[3] will mean that ontological subjectivity will have about as big a place in philosophy and neuroscience as God does in understanding the creation of the universe. IMNAAHO.
[1] Only two colour pigments in the eye. Any spectral distribution can be matched by two primary colours.
[2] Rare genetic mutation, theoretically possible only in females. Any spectral distribution can be uniquely matched by four primary colours. This leads to hugely improved chromatic discrimination. A recent research program is thought to have discovered a small number of tetrachromats.
[3] Superconducting Quantum Inteference Devices. They can already distinguish between emotions and certain primitive thoughts.
Shaggy 25 Nov 2002
Reductive Materialist crap.
So we can test if its an E2 by just seeing which nerve endings are firing, or how much of a wobbly I’m having?

If “seeing the colour red” = “an action-potential or spike running down the axon to its presynaptic ending, causing the terminal bulb or Purkinje cell etc etc”.

Then can an alien who has no ‘axon’ or ‘terminal bulb’ see the colour red or understand what we would mean by the term ‘red’?

Or can a computer ‘see red’ and distinguish a ‘red’ block from ‘blue’?
Red cannot be reduced simply to some facit of the human brain.

Right off to read 'What is it like to be a Bat?'.
GFoz 26 Nov 2002
In reply to Adrian:

You just don't get it it. Neral states are ONTOLOGICALLY subjective ie: NO description of radiation detection aat x nanmoetres wavelength can ever convey the qualia we refer to as red.

G
GFoz 26 Nov 2002
In reply to GFoz:

I also recommend what is it like to be a bat - Thomas nagel
OP Anonymous 26 Nov 2002
In reply to Luke: The route was top roped in summer with axes and stickies(from belayers mouth) and then done with gear insitu(seen from Davidsons pic of mort). Hardly the first Ground up of a X not when you top rope it with stickies and insitu gear! It would have been fine if he said M9 or M10 etc. Who is he trying to kid?!
Ffff 26 Nov 2002
In reply to Anonymous: what's a sticky?
 Timmd 26 Nov 2002
In reply to Ffff:It's a rockboot.

Tim
Stac Pollaidh 26 Nov 2002
In reply to GFoz:
Foz, yer maw has a point..
if this thread bores you, don't bother readin' it. take your irrelevances elsewhere please.
( btw, remember tryin' tae have this "my red", "your red" discussion wi' ma burd one time..
she telt me i wiz talkin a "crock o' shit", took the huff big time, i didnae get a shag for ages
after, no, no - might explain why ahm takin' the huff wi' yersel', noo?)
Shaggy 26 Nov 2002
In reply to Stac Pollaidh:
U shaggin' Foz then??

<confused>
Stac Pollaidh 26 Nov 2002
In reply to Shaggy:
> <confused>

aye, ye huvnae a scooby-doo huv ye?

no i am not, he's not my type.
Shaggy 26 Nov 2002
In reply to Stac Pollaidh:
Oh I see the point of the story now …

‘E does too much talkin a "crock o' shit" to be your biaaaatch!

he'll be gutted ...
GFoz 27 Nov 2002
In reply to Stac Pollaidh:

fair enough

but it is (kinda) relevant

my red don't equal your red

my E1 don't equal your E1?

whatever. Stay happy.

G
Koop 27 Nov 2002
In reply to God: Where are you getting your "info" from - i have been up there a few times and i can testify that Lochnagar was plastered on the 20th October. i have the photos to prove it. Ok so it has been stripped in the past two weeks, but it HAS been in condition so keep your unreliablae "info" to yourself.
OP Alastair 27 Nov 2002
In reply to Koop:
Hey Dude,
what is so special about the 20th October- not aware of any ground-breaking ascents on the 'Gar that day?! And just because the corrie is plastered doesn't necessarily mean the ground underneath is frozen. I have climbed extensively on the 'Gar for more than 14 years and without exception every route I have done relies on the ground (turf) being frozen.
So stop giving God a hard time, he knows what he is talking about believe me.
Later



OP d hunter 27 Nov 2002
In reply to Alastair:
the problem is that people often slag conditions without being there. locals can often predict conditions but can also get it wrong
for instance
glennmore lodge informed two friends of mine that coire lochan was warm and wet when they called in having done bulgy in prime conditions.
a friend of mine did pisgah buttress direct when i would have thought it was too mild but it were prime...
OP Cul Maw 27 Nov 2002
In reply to d hunter: aye but we're talking about an ascent claimed with the magical grade of X,11, I mean for godsake its given X,11!!!!! so there's bound to be controversy, Theres loadsa controversy about the style of that ascent in general, not just the nick of the route..

but Im not getting involved cos I really dont find it very interesting too busy being depressed about the current warm doldrums
 LakesWinter 27 Nov 2002
In reply to Cul Maw: yeah me too, too warm, too wet ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
OP Big Yin 27 Nov 2002
In reply to Cul Maw: Quite right pal ,very depressing,+4 in Lochain on Sat,no lookin much better fer this w`end.
Back tae puttin new floorboards in....
OP d hunter 27 Nov 2002
In reply to Cul Maw: yeh- i know its ludicrously warm... bah.
i agree that the ascent is controversial- just dont think anyone can give a definitive comment on conditions if they werent there.
also agree that onsight kind of precludes having practised in summer- although i have no real problem with that.
dont think people should overstate what theyve done in terms of onsight etc - which appears to be the problem here.
OP Adrian 02 Dec 2002
In reply to GFoz:
I understand what you're saying; I just disagree. We're all just machines (though not necessarily deterministic ones) and the whole internal mind state thing is just a convenient hallucination. If you can't measure it it doesn't exist.
OP Adrian 02 Dec 2002
In reply to Adrian:
Although I suppose that last reply does open me up to justifiable accusations of mindless trolling...

(To those who aren't the slightest bit interested: sorry for the off-topicness, but believe me if there was the slightest bit of decent weather I'd much rather be on the crag. Huff.)

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