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Sonnie Trotter is in Scotland to climb Rhapsody, E11. He's made a discovery that he says "may change the future of the line".
Read More: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=05&year=2008#n44434
Read More: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=05&year=2008#n44434
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Great. At last someone has said it and it's come straight from the horses mouth. I predict 500 posts.
The Ent
Great. At last someone has said it and it's come straight from the horses mouth. I predict 500 posts.
The Ent
In reply to Enty: Well its absolutely flying with 3 now.You may make it . . .
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Don't see whats wrong with choosing hardest line, good on you Dave M
In reply to stevieo10:
I agree. I'll have to watch E11 again to remind myself, but I thought the whole point about Rhapsody was that it's teh hardest line. Who cares that there are purer and/or easier lines off to the sides? No one ever thought it was the most elegant line in the world did they? It's not his fault if the only way he can find local rock that's hard enough to really test him is by choosing the hardest line not the most aesthetically pleasing, simplest or easiest.
I agree. I'll have to watch E11 again to remind myself, but I thought the whole point about Rhapsody was that it's teh hardest line. Who cares that there are purer and/or easier lines off to the sides? No one ever thought it was the most elegant line in the world did they? It's not his fault if the only way he can find local rock that's hard enough to really test him is by choosing the hardest line not the most aesthetically pleasing, simplest or easiest.
In reply to gingerkate:
I thought the whole point of doing the route a second time was to do the original route. Not turn up and change it a little bit, surely we should consider this a New route.
> (In reply to stevieo10)
> I agree. I'll have to watch E11 again to remind myself, but I thought the whole point about Rhapsody was that it's teh hardest line. Who cares that there are purer and/or easier lines off to the sides? No one ever thought it was the most elegant line in the world did they? It's not his fault if the only way he can find local rock that's hard enough to really test him is by choosing the hardest line not the most aesthetically pleasing, simplest or easiest.
> I agree. I'll have to watch E11 again to remind myself, but I thought the whole point about Rhapsody was that it's teh hardest line. Who cares that there are purer and/or easier lines off to the sides? No one ever thought it was the most elegant line in the world did they? It's not his fault if the only way he can find local rock that's hard enough to really test him is by choosing the hardest line not the most aesthetically pleasing, simplest or easiest.
I thought the whole point of doing the route a second time was to do the original route. Not turn up and change it a little bit, surely we should consider this a New route.
In reply to gingerkate: The thing that's surprising though is that it's actually an eliminate line by the sounds of it - in the sense that it avoids using reachable holds. Whilst this doesn't take anything away from dave, it does take quite alot away from the route....
In reply to Steve Ramsden: If it's true that there are reachable holds that are deliberately avoided by Rhapsody, that does IMO devalue the route's significance - still a great achievement, but...
In reply to space monkey:
on his blog trotter says he's still trying to repeat it as per the FA...
> (In reply to gingerkate)
> [...]
>
>
> I thought the whole point of doing the route a second time was to do the original route. Not turn up and change it a little bit, surely we should consider this a New route.
> [...]
>
>
> I thought the whole point of doing the route a second time was to do the original route. Not turn up and change it a little bit, surely we should consider this a New route.
on his blog trotter says he's still trying to repeat it as per the FA...
In reply to space monkey: Did you actually read what he said?
In reply to Marc C:
It sounded to me like the E10 sequence Sonnie talked about was more direct than the original too. It's a shame for the "classic-ness" of the line (for want of a better word) but like you say, it doesn't take anything away from Dave or Sonnie's achievements (if Sonnie does it of course, although a phenomenal effort already).
> (In reply to Steve Ramsden) If it's true that there are reachable holds that are deliberately avoided by Rhapsody, that does IMO devalue the route's significance - still a great achievement, but...
It sounded to me like the E10 sequence Sonnie talked about was more direct than the original too. It's a shame for the "classic-ness" of the line (for want of a better word) but like you say, it doesn't take anything away from Dave or Sonnie's achievements (if Sonnie does it of course, although a phenomenal effort already).
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
I suppose it's a bit of a shame that it's not really "the true finish to Requiem" after all. I guess Dave M struggles to find hard enough lines in the same way that I struggle to find easy enough lines
I suppose it's a bit of a shame that it's not really "the true finish to Requiem" after all. I guess Dave M struggles to find hard enough lines in the same way that I struggle to find easy enough lines
In reply to Steve Ramsden:
That sums it up perfectly, IMO.
> Whilst this doesn't take anything away from dave, it does take quite alot away from the route....
That sums it up perfectly, IMO.
In reply to Chris Craggs: Maybe ST has. But that would seem a bit surprising, given the comparative amounts of time he and Dave Mac have spent on the route?
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Can someone who climbs really hard stuff answer me this:
If Sonnie T has found a line that is easier for him, will that line inevitably be easier for Dave M too? Does body type/style make so little difference that there will be one definitively easiest line for all?
Can someone who climbs really hard stuff answer me this:
If Sonnie T has found a line that is easier for him, will that line inevitably be easier for Dave M too? Does body type/style make so little difference that there will be one definitively easiest line for all?
Not sure if I meant line or sequence there, really. Sort of both, I suppose.
In reply to gingerkate:
Ask spa_bob, he's done it!: http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=79571
"trotter was mucking around on the boulders so pissed up it. I dont know what the fuss is about they must have missed the no. 7 hex placement at the top."
Ask spa_bob, he's done it!: http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=79571
"trotter was mucking around on the boulders so pissed up it. I dont know what the fuss is about they must have missed the no. 7 hex placement at the top."
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Oh darn. I did wonder why it didn't exit left after seeing your fellow's photos on the other thread. I think maybe Sonnie has to lead either of these variations (the E9 exit left and/or the `new E10 sequence') before we can dismiss Rhapsody as eliminate and rgard his comments as anything other than his opinion.
Oh darn. I did wonder why it didn't exit left after seeing your fellow's photos on the other thread. I think maybe Sonnie has to lead either of these variations (the E9 exit left and/or the `new E10 sequence') before we can dismiss Rhapsody as eliminate and rgard his comments as anything other than his opinion.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
yes, but Brad Pit is about using the SAME holds in a different way (or missing them out!) - Sonnie T seems to be referring to the discovery of EXTRA holds?
> (In reply to Marc C)
>
> Like Brad Pit maybe? >
>
> Like Brad Pit maybe? >
yes, but Brad Pit is about using the SAME holds in a different way (or missing them out!) - Sonnie T seems to be referring to the discovery of EXTRA holds?
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
I'm more interested to see if Sonnie leads this E10 direct sequence. We could even have another round of Spinal Tap route names `this amp goes up to 11, most amps only go up to 10, etc). I hate to say it but a little pressure might then go on Dave to get his Nevis project done to save face.
With the E9 left arete thingy, that still sounds like a great route, but it's two grades lower than Rhapsody. If you were on an E2 (Pot Black) but could escape from it at HVS (e.g. Billiard Buttress) then the E2 would still be valid, it'd just be an escapable one. It's a bit bizarre to call an E9 an escape route, but it's easier enough than E11 to say that if you only do that you haven't found an easier way of doing Rhapsody, you've gone off route, or at best have done a different route.
I'm more interested to see if Sonnie leads this E10 direct sequence. We could even have another round of Spinal Tap route names `this amp goes up to 11, most amps only go up to 10, etc). I hate to say it but a little pressure might then go on Dave to get his Nevis project done to save face.
With the E9 left arete thingy, that still sounds like a great route, but it's two grades lower than Rhapsody. If you were on an E2 (Pot Black) but could escape from it at HVS (e.g. Billiard Buttress) then the E2 would still be valid, it'd just be an escapable one. It's a bit bizarre to call an E9 an escape route, but it's easier enough than E11 to say that if you only do that you haven't found an easier way of doing Rhapsody, you've gone off route, or at best have done a different route.
In reply to Bulls Crack: I thought ST's comments were very discussion-worthy! I'd always presumed Rhapsody was THE line - i.e. the only - fiendishly difficult - way up an extremely challenging headwall. Clarification will no doubt come in time, but, imagine someone repeating Indian Face and saying they'd found an easier variation using holds that Dawes had avoided?
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Surely though a route is a route whether or not it follows the "true line" as far as I am aware its never been claimed that it was the "true line" up the head wall. Granted if he is reaching across a good hold for the sake of making the route harder would raise questions about the route but if he has moved left to avoid the "easier" line make it harder then that is the choice of the person with the FA. I dunno I am relatively new to this so there might be something in the ethics I am missing. Good effort all round though and I look forward to james pearson etc giving it ago.
Surely though a route is a route whether or not it follows the "true line" as far as I am aware its never been claimed that it was the "true line" up the head wall. Granted if he is reaching across a good hold for the sake of making the route harder would raise questions about the route but if he has moved left to avoid the "easier" line make it harder then that is the choice of the person with the FA. I dunno I am relatively new to this so there might be something in the ethics I am missing. Good effort all round though and I look forward to james pearson etc giving it ago.
In reply to telemarker: Things may become clearer very quickly, as according to ST's blog Dunne, Pearson AND McClure will be arriving tomorrow.
In reply to Peter Walker: OMG! waddage!!! wow i dunno if Dunne will do it?? how good shape is he in??
Pearson?? i thought he was more of a bouldererer/short router but i dunno
McClure - i reckon will do it fo' sho'!!
Pearson?? i thought he was more of a bouldererer/short router but i dunno
McClure - i reckon will do it fo' sho'!!
In reply to dunkymonkey17:
Dunne will do it while no-one's looking and downgrade it to E8.
Pearson will fail due to a lack of stamina but flash all the 8b boulder problems to make sure the trip wasn't wasted.
McClure will claim to be not that strong, not that good with fear...and walk up it anyway.
Dunne will do it while no-one's looking and downgrade it to E8.
Pearson will fail due to a lack of stamina but flash all the 8b boulder problems to make sure the trip wasn't wasted.
McClure will claim to be not that strong, not that good with fear...and walk up it anyway.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
I think folk are missing the point a little here Dave MCleod climbed a new line called Rhapsody which he gave E11 ! Whether there is an easier way or not is irrelevant really its the line that he chose to climb thus creating a new line if someone chooses to climb and easier variation then thats thier bag not Daves. Seems prehaps a little odd to me that someone who has flown all the way over from the US to climb such a hard line would start to dispute it when he hasnt climbed it.
Presuambly then clapham junction in Glen Nevis does not count as you could climb pinnacle ridge to the side of it easier or Flying buttress direct does not count as flying butress is an easier option !
Gone are the days of arriving at crags and you can just pick your new line the hard climbers need to create their own statements and break new ground and thats what Dave has done in my eyes !
Aye Dan
I think folk are missing the point a little here Dave MCleod climbed a new line called Rhapsody which he gave E11 ! Whether there is an easier way or not is irrelevant really its the line that he chose to climb thus creating a new line if someone chooses to climb and easier variation then thats thier bag not Daves. Seems prehaps a little odd to me that someone who has flown all the way over from the US to climb such a hard line would start to dispute it when he hasnt climbed it.
Presuambly then clapham junction in Glen Nevis does not count as you could climb pinnacle ridge to the side of it easier or Flying buttress direct does not count as flying butress is an easier option !
Gone are the days of arriving at crags and you can just pick your new line the hard climbers need to create their own statements and break new ground and thats what Dave has done in my eyes !
Aye Dan
In reply to Dan Goodwin: I agree, DM was under no obligation to do anything, he went climbing and did a route, and people on the internet talk about it while he goes and climbs other things, nobody posting here could get up the easiest rhapsody 'option' discussed here!
I'm not sure this is news - I mentioned the possible escape left when I posted the route description (link below) the day after I did the first ascent!
http://routes.scottishclimbs.com/viewcrag.php?area=1&crag=22
I also linked the 'direct' method following the crack from the shakeout but it seemed too eliminate too me because you could bridge into the requiem corner. So much more aesthetic in my eyes to climb the flange on the left, which I obviously decided to do. At the top of the flange you can escape left onto the arete at the final shakeout, but as soon as you step back right and go into the crux there is no escape. So as far as I'm concerned it takes the hardest line up the wall, escapable at one point. But if you are there on the lead you aren't thinking about escape so it's meaningless anyway.
I gave the route two stars - a one star line with four star climbing and situations. Nuff said.
http://routes.scottishclimbs.com/viewcrag.php?area=1&crag=22
I also linked the 'direct' method following the crack from the shakeout but it seemed too eliminate too me because you could bridge into the requiem corner. So much more aesthetic in my eyes to climb the flange on the left, which I obviously decided to do. At the top of the flange you can escape left onto the arete at the final shakeout, but as soon as you step back right and go into the crux there is no escape. So as far as I'm concerned it takes the hardest line up the wall, escapable at one point. But if you are there on the lead you aren't thinking about escape so it's meaningless anyway.
I gave the route two stars - a one star line with four star climbing and situations. Nuff said.
In reply to Bulls Crack:
I said they've not been lead, but discussed it further anyway because it's interesting, it shows you where the possbilities lay, it's two other safeish/runout projects that capable climbers should really be leaving their cellars, getting on and getting done.
And finally because some of my routes are and something I'm playing on is totally escapable too (it's too warm and I'm coming round to the view that the hard thing's just too damn hard for me!). So I too think that just because something's not the line of weakness doens't mean it's not chock full off cool and worthwhile climbing.
I said they've not been lead, but discussed it further anyway because it's interesting, it shows you where the possbilities lay, it's two other safeish/runout projects that capable climbers should really be leaving their cellars, getting on and getting done.
And finally because some of my routes are and something I'm playing on is totally escapable too (it's too warm and I'm coming round to the view that the hard thing's just too damn hard for me!). So I too think that just because something's not the line of weakness doens't mean it's not chock full off cool and worthwhile climbing.
In reply to gingerkate: Trotter's blog entry has a bit on this.
In reply to Dave MacLeod:
Thanks for that clarification!
I notice Sonnie T also says:
"The moves are great, the crack is one of the best climbs of it's kind in the world and the headwall is demanding and precise. It's not for everyone, but it is for me. It's getting harder and harder to find climbs such as these, and this is why I'm here and this is why I would come back again."
And about his 'eliminate' comments he says:
"Trust me, it's really no big deal, so please don't go making it a big deal."
Thanks for that clarification!
I notice Sonnie T also says:
"The moves are great, the crack is one of the best climbs of it's kind in the world and the headwall is demanding and precise. It's not for everyone, but it is for me. It's getting harder and harder to find climbs such as these, and this is why I'm here and this is why I would come back again."
And about his 'eliminate' comments he says:
"Trust me, it's really no big deal, so please don't go making it a big deal."
In reply to Dan Goodwin:
I think ST might be Canadian, or did he fly in via JFK?
> (In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC)
>
> that someone who has flown all the way over from the US
>
> that someone who has flown all the way over from the US
I think ST might be Canadian, or did he fly in via JFK?
In reply to TRNovice:
Anyone who can't figure out that ST is a canuck from his blog must be astonishingly geographically-ignorant, even by UKC standards ...
Anyone who can't figure out that ST is a canuck from his blog must be astonishingly geographically-ignorant, even by UKC standards ...
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: So it can be downgraded like, was it The Maximum that Dunne did at Malham and an easier sequence was found ??
In reply to Ben C:
Yeah to Diff, I found an easier sequence by traversing 65m (right) along the base of the crag and striking out for the top from there.
Yeah to Diff, I found an easier sequence by traversing 65m (right) along the base of the crag and striking out for the top from there.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
I was wondering how long after the weekend this would resurface .
I was wondering how long after the weekend this would resurface .
In reply to Dave MacLeod:
Indeed, nice reply and clears it up. If anything it only proves people don't bother reading before posting on a subject!
> I gave the route two stars - a one star line with four star climbing and situations. Nuff said.
Indeed, nice reply and clears it up. If anything it only proves people don't bother reading before posting on a subject!
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: So, any news on the English lads that went up to have look?
In reply to Richard Bradley:
The word I heard was that the one star nature of the line didn't appeal to Dunne and Pearson however McClure was said to have enjoyed the moves and may come back for a more serious go on it.
The word I heard was that the one star nature of the line didn't appeal to Dunne and Pearson however McClure was said to have enjoyed the moves and may come back for a more serious go on it.
In reply to JLS:
your takin the piss right? on the assumption you are not then even more respect to sonnie trotter
how a route that takes in the requiem crack and launches up that headwall can only get one star is utterly ridiculous
> (In reply to Richard Bradley)
>
> The word I heard was that the one star nature of the line didn't appeal to Dunne and Pearson
>
> The word I heard was that the one star nature of the line didn't appeal to Dunne and Pearson
your takin the piss right? on the assumption you are not then even more respect to sonnie trotter
how a route that takes in the requiem crack and launches up that headwall can only get one star is utterly ridiculous
In reply to Paz: What does a 5 mean in English?
In reply to Anni: I was planning a trip up to Dumby to have a go at Rhapsody, but, you're right, it'll probably be polished to buggery after the toproping 'haven't got the balls to lead anything' brigade (Trotter, Pearson, Dunne, McClure, Macleod) have been mauling it in their trainers
In reply to Marc C:
>"mauling it in their trainers"
Soloing E5's above the broken glass bearfoot is the new 'hard' thing to do at Dumby these days. Top-roping Rhapsody has had it's day.
>"mauling it in their trainers"
Soloing E5's above the broken glass bearfoot is the new 'hard' thing to do at Dumby these days. Top-roping Rhapsody has had it's day.
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