UKC

They are bloody expensive aren't they? I appreciate that they are low volume products, but if they cost half what they do I'd be much more likely to buy them. Haven't seen that many but recently watched First Ascent and Hard XS. Thought FA was very inspirational and well filmed (well most of it) so would have paid for it, whereas HXS is interesting, I wouldn't part with the cash for it. At the price they need to have a good rewatch value, the kind of thing you put and get psyched to go push your climbing.

Would you buy more if they were cheaper? Which ones are worth the cash?

In reply to Duncan_S:

Yes, and pass. You can get such good videos for free online these days I'm amazed its worth their while selling them; good stocking fillers for the climber in your life I guess. A lot of DVDs just contain more news and hype worthy ascents than actual cool or psyche building or repeat watching material.

I actually like Sea Fever, but I'm odd and I got my copy cheap in Ma Weston's. It's just kind of therapeutic like watching snooker or cricket - you know generally nothing much is going to happen and enjoy the good bits all the more for it. Have they reduced those old TV climbing adventure ones yet with Simpson, Emmett, Anderson and Houlding etc. ? `Lay back and think of England', 'Ooh I've done E4s in my time'. I forget the name of the program.

The Dosages usually seemed quite good, what I saw of other peoples, and Committed etc. if you were into Grit.

In reply to Duncan_S: They charge the price, and get away with it.

Wants £30 these days?

Alot too folk like myself, but I wait till a copy pops up second hand!

In reply to Duncan_S:

re: price - aye too darn pricey most of them.

re: re-watchability - I think hard grit and return to sender have both been watched a good few times by me, so decent value for money. Others I have known I won't watch again (or very little) such as stone monkey I have had to sell on to recoup some of the high rrp (luckily a lot of folk rate stone monkey so was able to sell it, just not my cup of tea)

In reply to Duncan_S: I can't say price stops me buying them, though if they were cheaper I'd certainly buy more.

It's a hard situation though as its not really comparible to the broader film industry where high DVD prices = us being ripped off and executives making a small fortune. Climbing DVD's usual cost that much because although the production companies are small the making of a climbing film is a lot of time and effort for a film that has a comparatively small market. Most of these production companies are having to fight hard to make ends meet.

In reply to elfofnight42:

Appreciate that, but once its made its made and shouldn't cost much to run off 5 times as many.

If films were a tenner each I'd probably buy one every few weeks. As they're 20 quid each I buy a couple a year.

In reply to blancbleu:

Its not the cost of producing the DVD's that's the issue though, its the pay of everyone involved in filming/editing etc. I know that is only a few people, but when they are spending maybe the best part of a year working on one of these films that adds up to a sizable amount (even if earning a relatively low amount) and I've heard elsewhere how hard the companies can sometimes struggle to break even. If they were gauranteed to sell enough copies to break even then yes I agree the prices could be dropped, the production costs per DVD are only about a quid if you do it in bulk, but in many instances that simply isn't the case.

In reply to elfofnight42:

How come the difference in quality between DVDs you can get for free, or ones made cheaply, and those that are hyped up but have little rewatch value made by more dedicated companies, is so slight then IMHO?

Admittedly guidebooks are £20 these days, but are essential to our sport so can be justified by consumers, where as these are entertainment products, and are much much dearer than your general hollywood film on play.com, which would be longer too. I think they should have a bit more confidence that they'll sell in volume at a lower price. Have any retailers tried discounting them at a loss - the markup on DVDs is naff all isn't it? They can always do a second pressing.

In reply to Duncan_S:
you can always flog them on ebay if you dont like them normally go for good prices too.

In reply to Duncan_S:
In short yes

In reply to Paz:

I don't think its quite so easy when selling to such a niche market. These kind of climbing films are (generally speaking) only really of interest to climbers, only those of us who have an understanding of climbing and all that is involved out of experience can fully appreciate what is going on - the peril, the tension, the acheivement etc. To most non-climbers it just looks dull, thats why whenever you see climbing in a big Hollywood blockbuster it is always rediculous - unprotected solo dynos half way up big walls (Mission impossible, Cliff Hanger), jumping across 20m crevasses (Vertical Limit) etc. Add to this the fact that even if prices were reduced many climbers simply aren't interested in paying anything to watch other people climb, and the fact that British companies such as Slackjaw and Hot Aches can't sell very easily to audiences outside of the UK.... that market is looking very small indeed. It's kind of hard to have confidence you'll sell considerably better simply by reducing prices, especially when taking that kind of a risk could easily result in your company going bust, when the market is so small as it is!

I'd also argue with your claim that expensive DVD's are no better than free or cheaper vids - these days you're getting HD quality, the countries finest climbers, a well though out and scripted narrative rather than a cobbled together group of random climbs etc. But I guess that is all just a matter of opinion

In reply to Duncan_S:

King Lines was a cracking DVD, I must have watched that at least twenty times.

Well worth the money.

In reply to Duncan_S:

Most I've seen are around the £18 mark.

I haven't bought any.

If they were around the £12 mark, I'd probably buy some.

In reply to Duncan_S:

I've never bought a sport video/DVD/etc. I have seen a few and IMO, they are boring!

In reply to Chris Tan Ver. L - Lost in Time: £18 is excessive tho, if they were below £10 I'd be more interested. I don't tend to by DVDs when they're released, only when they come down to 3 for £20 of similar.

In reply to elfofnight42:

Fine, we can disagree on this, but I think it's high time someone took a chance and tested this (with their back catalogue or with some classic old films maybe) and let the customers decide. I claim if you dropped the prices sub ten pounds you might well appeal outside the niche. People buy a lot of crap as it is on impulse. For example I'd then feel able to say to my family `why don't you get me this DVD for my birthday' . As it is at the moment I'd rather get a guidebook or have them club together and get me a cam! For it to be worthwhile presumably there have to be at least twice as many people like me not currently buying them, as there are currently buying them anyway. But as I say, there may be even more, abroad, or outside the niche.


With the best you're getting all that and more, sure, but with some AFAIK you're just getting a half an hour, 45 minutes film of just one climb for the same price as one of the better ones. When you ask soemone `have you seen...' the you see it's all about the content anyway, all that HD stuff etc. is just marketing. A lot of these DVDs do do the rounds getting lent out and stuff. A lot of people like me are watching them and enjoying them, we're just not forking out £20 a popp.

In reply to blancbleu:

I think I bought my copy of Stone Monkey off you...

I buy them 2nd hand or I get them as presents. I completely understand why they cost so much but when you see how short a lot of them are then >£20 seems like a bit of a rip off. If they were cheaper I'd buy more and I'd probably buy them new, meaning the companies involved in making them would actually see some of my money.

In reply to Duncan_S: i think for the amount of work and effort put in to making these dvds then £20 has to be reasonable considering the market size.
at the end of the day they are not making big money and i for one have no qualms in buying any that i fancy seeing. my latest purchases were 'underdeveloped' and 'hard xs' (who also gave me a complimentary disc about disabled climbers tackling kilimonjaro)

In reply to Duncan_S:
climbing dvds should be like normal film dvds, i would never pay £20 for a film but when it gets reduced to £10 a few months after release I'll buy it. I've got loads of dvds for less than a tenner. I realise that climbing films have different funding and costs etc but at the end of the day its still only a dvd and im only prepared to pay a certain amount

In reply to Duncan_S: I bought a copy of Stone Monkey off a dodgy character at Frogget one day, as we were chatting i asked his name and he said
" Johnny. Johnny Dawes?" At least i didn't say "who?" with the dvd in my hand!

In reply to Duncan_S: nah it doesnt stop me buying them it just limits the amount i can buy - the people who make them put alot of time and effort into them and so to be able to create quality films they need to be doing it full time so need to earn a living

In reply to Duncan_S:

So the peeps need to earn a living, the production costs per disc are low but the time taken to make the film is high and we'd all buy more if they were cheaper. They are normally very short as well!

So come on film makers take the gamble and flog them cheap and see how many more you sell.

In reply to Duncan_S: I really dont mind paying 20 quid+ for a climbing film, as has been mentioned before its a very specific makret and they're never going to sell millions of copies of their filsm, especially if you take in to account re-sale.

As for lowering the price and so selling more, i tihnk its very easy to say that but when the idea not working means your our of a years wages and neck deep in shit with no job you'll want to think a bit more carefully before halving the price of your products.

In reply to remtherockclimber:

Exactly... to lower the price to £10 (using a figure a few people have thrown around) they'd have to be pretty confident they'd sell over twice as many copies to make as much money - money which they need to stay in business, support families, pay the bills etc. I sincerely doubt a halving in price would see anywhere near that high a return.

In reply to Duncan_S:

Have you ever tried making a film even half as good as those that you see in the climbing shops? It takes a hell of a lot of effort. I don't buy many climbing films (maybe one a year), and yes it feels like a lot of mney, but I can appreciate the masses of effort invested by the likes of Posing Productions, Slackjaw, etc. that I am rewarding when I buy one.

Playing devil's advocate here: by the same token, imagine - if you (or your employer) took the gamble and halved the cost of whatever it is you do for a living, then maybe you'd sell twice as much of it too. Fancy taking the chance?

In reply to Duncan_S:
I think you'd be surprised by the profit actually made on any of these productions.

these guys hardly earn a living from making climbing films they just about cover costs i bet think of the miles travelled for any of them. countless weekends driving the length of the country for a few minutes of footage if there lucky. then months sat in a room editing all for joe public to enjoy at a relatively small cost. twenty quid! dont go to the pub one night in the week !

In reply to Duncan_S:

anyone got any idea of the sales climbing dvd's might make? i would have thought 1,000 ish would be doing well. At £20 each DVD that is £20k of sales, enough to support a couple of people for a few months of effort.

In reply to Morgan Woods:

One gets the feeling that most take more than a few months of effort. Travel & subsistence costs??

£20K of sales (at best?), minus promotion costs, retailers' % (unless sold direct)? Can see the figures shrinking rapidly...

Do the 'performers' get paid? Hard to see much money left.

Mick

In reply to Duncan_S: Price stops you buying most things...

In reply to Duncan_S: In the grand scheme of things climbing dvd's really arent expensive. The sales will normally just about cover the cost (if they're lucky), although obviously its great advertising having videos played in peoples homes and climbing shops. I have no direct experience from climbing videos but with skateboard videos. They rarely cover the cost in sales and back in the 90's would sell for up to £35. I sold a second hand skateboard video for £200 a couple of years ago, so it may be worth hanging on to any climbing videos you have for a little while.

In reply to Duncan_S:

I agree with you that the price point of these films make them "considered" purchases. However, I can see how the economics of this market dictate the price. The margins must be incredibly small and we're lucky that talented individuals are devoting themselves to documenting our sport. If they were in it for the money, I'm sure there are far more profitable areas they could easily choose to work in.

Over the years, I have slowly built up a reasonable collection of films. I'll always shop around and try to find a bargain, as they do occasionally get discounted a little. However, I very much appreciate that my money goes to companies who are doing something they believe in and hope that they will continue to produce films for our entertainment.

In the event that you purchase a title which you would not want to watch again, bung it on the for sale forum/ebay. It will then cost you a little more than if you had rented it for a night. In fact, that's a good point. Rather than drop the price, I would love to see a climbing film section on lovefilm or at Blockbuster. I can appreciate that this may not be appropriate nationwide, but surely certain locations would make sense (Blockbuster in Hunters Bar, Sheffield, for example)? Have Posing Productions et al explored this?

J