UKC

`Dinas Cromlech - Bolts for abbing /belaying ?

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 mr mills 01 Jun 2008
This is a topic that many climbers have been debating about for years, at the top of the cromlech there are a variety of cords and slings around the tree, and even a great big static rope which is used for climbers who belay off when they have done the gates or right wall ! what is the answer ? dare i say bolts to abb off ! this is a suggestion made by many climbers which I have spoken to over the years, so what do you think then ?
OP mr mills 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Al Evans: not all climbers are as considerate as yourself Al, me included ! respect !!!
In reply to Al Evans:

You've lost me, Al. Walking? How does that work?

jcm
 riddle 01 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills: I have yet to climb there, but wouldnt consider ab-ing from the top if there is a way down using Shanks' Pony. An unneccessary risk and it must get in the way of other climbers.
 Mark Stevenson 01 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills: There is absolutely no need for bolts as there are perfectly good natural anchors in the shape of 3-4 trees and several large blocks.

There could be an argument for chains to replace some of the tat/rope that is in place, but thanks to the BMC the current thick ropes in place with mallions are more than adequate and much better than the mish-mash of tat that was in place several years ago. Provided climbers don't steal the mallions or litter the place with extra un-necessary tat, the current situation is perfectly fine.

As regards abbing and walking off, on my last visit we did abseiled after doing The Corner, Left Wall, The Foil and Right Wall but we then did Memory Lane followed by Grond in the upper tier and walked off after that. The number and grade range of routes in the upper tier is rather limited, so it's not really reasonable to expect everyone to continue to the top, every time.
In reply to mr mills: I'm with Al and Riddle. Walk down you lazy bastards!
 Al Evans 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Mark Stevenson: Excuse me Mark, Tributary Crack is a 40ft 'Easy' Diff. You are surely not trying to tell me that anybody who has climbed up there cannot ungear and solo it to the descent?
 Enty 01 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills:

Just to let you know that as long as there is a hole in my arse there will never be any bolted ab stations at the top of the Cromlech.

1/10

The Ent
 nickstephens 01 Jun 2008
If there is natural protection of some form (and in this case a walk-off of sorts), I agree with the sentiments of Enty.
 IOAN D 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Enty: whats more of an eyesore, two ring bolts painted to blend in or a pile of rotting tat around the trees and boulders? this would give the trees a bit of a rest and fair play, not on every cliff top do you get established oak trees.
It is only on top of foil and left wall that the bmc have introduced those thick ropes and maillons, the others are horrible, especially the one above the gates and right wall.
But even if the local activists and bmc members would agree to placeing a bolt, you would get some old fart from away comeing there and chopping em, tis the way of the of the british old school climbing comunity i am afraid
 Al Evans 01 Jun 2008
In reply to IOAN D:
> (In reply to Enty) whats more of an eyesore, two ring bolts painted to blend in or a pile of rotting tat around the trees and boulders?

Or indeed no abseil tat at all, including bolts, there should be a sentence in the guidebook explaining that there is a perfectly reasonable walk off, and the sight of hoards of climbers abbing off round you as you climb your route is a source of pollution too.
 Mark Stevenson 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Al Evans: At the risk of being pedantic - having to solo a diff, hardly makes it a 'walk off'.

The descent from the very top is pretty quick, however the scramble back to the bottom of The Corner means that the whole thing is VERY time consuming UNLESS you include a proper route on the upper tier.

There are some great routes up there. Grond is possibly the finest hand crack of it's grade in the Country and I'd encourage all E2 leaders to get on it next time that are at the crag.
 Enty 01 Jun 2008
In reply to IOAN D:
> (In reply to Enty) whats more of an eyesore, two ring bolts painted to blend in or a pile of rotting tat around the trees and boulders?

Tat, replaced frquently, is much less of an eysore than two holes in the rock.

It's got nothing to do with being an eyesore anyway. If you place bolts on a mountain crag like the Cromlech, some youngster will come along and think, well if it's good enough for the Cromlech, why not crag X, Y and Z.....

The Ent

 Tyler 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Enty:

> Tat, replaced frquently, is much less of an eysore than two holes in the rock.

You are joking? Have you seen the big static lne that s up there lassed to and between all the trees? Or even the threads at the toop of Left Wall?

Besides, who's going to do the 'frequent replacing'? What's more likely i that people will just add tat to the exisitng or ab off the fragile trees until they die.

> It's got nothing to do with being an eyesore anyway. If you place bolts on a mountain crag like the Cromlech, some youngster will come along and think, well if it's good enough for the Cromlech, why not crag X, Y and Z.....

Yes just like they did when the various bolts were placed on cloggy......

In answer to the original question I'm in favour of a few bolts but it'll never happen so its pointless debating the issue.
 Tyler 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Al Evans:

> Or indeed no abseil tat at all, including bolts, there should be a sentence in the guidebook explaining that there is a perfectly reasonable walk off, and the sight of hoards of climbers abbing off round you as you climb your route is a source of pollution too.

In a perfect world people would walk off but this is unlikely to happen until the trees are gone and the thread at the top of left Wall is broken so it comes down to a choice between one or the other and by any logic bolts are preferable but logic doesn't apply with such an emotive issue.

 Enty 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Tyler:

I'm going to watch from the sidelines too. I'm fed up with this debate. If people can't see why "just a few" bolts won't work then there's no point.

The Ent
 Traveller 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Enty: If 'old school british climbing' entails the removal of unneccesary bolts in a situation where walking off or downclimbing is possible, then up with British old school. Bolts don't belong on crags like this.
 Michael Ryan 01 Jun 2008
 Michael Ryan 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Mark Stevenson) Excuse me Mark, Tributary Crack is a 40ft 'Easy' Diff. You are surely not trying to tell me that anybody who has climbed up there cannot ungear and solo it to the descent?

The majority of climbing accidents involve soloing down 'easy' descents.

 Al Evans 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Tyler:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
>
> [...]
>
> In a perfect world people would walk off but this is unlikely to happen until the trees are gone and the thread at the top of left Wall is broken so it comes down to a choice between one or the other and by any logic bolts are preferable but logic doesn't apply with such an emotive issue.

Why???? Climbers have been walking off the Cromlech for about 100 years, what makes this generation incapable of it? My preference is for a move to project abseiling instead of walking down akin to top-roping.

 Al Evans 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Mick, stop it right now, you know what!
 Michael Ryan 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Tyler)
> [...]
>
> Why???? Climbers have been walking off the Cromlech for about 100 years, what makes this generation incapable of it?

Because the current generation don't have balls as big as yours Al, aren't as hard, and don't climb as well.

All they do is climb at walls, clip bolts, clad themselves in Prana and Arcteryx, read Rockfax guidebooks, use clipsticks and spray about their latest Fr 6b head/redpoint loudly.

Give up the ghost Al, modern climbing is rubbish.

You keep on ranting about all and sundry.

; o )

 Tyler 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Al Evans:

I'm not sure what generation you're talking about but I dare say its not a recent development much as you'd like to think otherwise. Besides it's almost an irrelevance you have to take a real world view rather than a rose tinited one and the fact is people will find ways to ab off the top of the Cromlech, if there is nothing in situ then the trees will be used, and probably lots of old tat will be left lying around. No one is saying this is ideal, it's just what happens.
 Al Evans 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> [...]
>
> Because the current generation don't have balls as big as yours Al, aren't as hard, and don't climb as well. All they do is climb at walls, clip bolts, clad themselves in Prana and Arcteryx, read Rockfax guidebooks, use clipsticks and spray about their latest Fr 6b head/redpoint loudly.

I don't think thats true, I think its because people like you set a bad example.
 sutty 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Tyler:

It will be a real ball ache though if someone drops a rope on someone on the corner or left wall and finds someone ties their ropes tight out of the way so they have to wait to recover their ropes. Better to walk round.
 Tyler 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Al Evans:

> I don't think thats true, I think its because people like you set a bad example.

Yeah, it had never occured to me to ab from the top of the Cromlech until I saw Mick do it.
 Michael Ryan 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
> I don't think thats true, I think its because people like you set a bad example.

Explain yourself.

 Tyler 01 Jun 2008
In reply to sutty:

I'm not aware of that ever having happend though, are you? I think if you want to talk about theoretical possibilites then I would worry first about the thread at the top of LW breaking.
 Michael Ryan 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> [...]
>
> Explain yourself.

And you you get 15 minutes to explain yourself.

 Al Evans 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I can't explain myself to you Mick, because if I happened to say white was white you would say 'no its black' whenever I put a perfectly reasonable point of view forward, like it just might not be the best enhancement for your own personal climbing experience if you were leading Cenotaph, or Left or Right wall and a couple of ropes came snaking down your route followed by two or three hooray henrys, sorry I think we should all consider others on the crag and that is easier maintained by walking down instead of abseiling on their heads etc.
 Michael Ryan 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com) I can't explain myself to you Mick, because if I happened to say white was white you would say 'no its black' whenever I put a perfectly reasonable point of view forward, like it just might not be the best enhancement for your own personal climbing experience if you were leading Cenotaph, or Left or Right wall and a couple of ropes came snaking down your route followed by two or three hooray henrys, sorry I think we should all consider others on the crag and that is easier maintained by walking down instead of abseiling on their heads etc.

I asked you to explain why you said that I set a bad example.

Clocks ticking.
 Al Evans 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Its implied, you always support anything against what I suggest, so I repeat all in the above post and refer you to your own earlier posts above.
 mark reeves Global Crag Moderator 01 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills: I have to say Mills, as someone who suggested this a couple of years ago, when abseil station were discussed locally, I based my reasoning on the environmental impact that climbers might be having on the tree on top of the cromlech. I had been up there for a few years, however last week the tree looked very healthy, good canopy of green leaves and little damage to the roots. I agree that something should be done up there. In particular removing all the rope that 'backs-up' balays, from the corner to Ivy Scepulca (sic?). As anyone climbing those routes should be able to rig a belay without it.

Incidentally the BMC rope and mallions only reached as far as the crouchan I think, no one ever went up to the wastad or cromlech. I recently added a mallion to the tree of shadow wall, but didn't have knife at the time to cut off the old tat.

I have approximate 5 metres of the BMC rope and a couple of mallions, if I get the time I'll get rid of the current old rope and replace with the new and a mallion.

Maybe we should get vervonica to bring it up in the new area meeting.
 Al Evans 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Look it's even said here
'In reply to Tyler:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
>
> [...]
>
> Yeah, it had never occured to me to ab from the top of the Cromlech until I saw Mick do it.'

 Tyler 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Al Evans:

Jesus christ I was being sarcastic!
 Al Evans 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Tyler: So was I.
Chris Tan Ver. L - Lost in Time 01 Jun 2008
In reply to All:

Part of climbing entails the ability to get back down, be it walking, scambling, down climbing, abseiling, or combinations thereof.

Get used to it!

 Michael Ryan 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com) Its implied, you always support anything against what I suggest, so I repeat all in the above post and refer you to your own earlier posts above.

I support British climbing Al and British climbers. It's what I get paid for.

 Al Evans 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: So I guess you have decided I am not a British climber, Mick I have supported, and I am still contributing to, British climbing for over 40 years, just because I think some of the new attitudes are chucking the baby out with the bathwater, like not using walk offs, doesn't mean I have stopped caring about it, just the contrary.
 Michael Ryan 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Al Evans:

Thousands of climbers walk off each weekend Al.

There isn't a problem. What is being investigated is replacing existing tat abseils with chains.

You want a good rant? Visit Cheddar and its two bolt to an anchor Diffs -

communier 01 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills:

i'd be really worried about it being the thin end of the wedge and bolts creeping in generally.

even though tat round trees is more unsightly, i like abbing off stuff that has been placed 'naturally'. i feel that someone has left a bit of their rack there to get off an adventurous place.


i'm a hypocrite because i love going to non uk cragsa and having it all set up, but not on my home ground thankyou.

i feel i've got my head in the sand after reading what i've written, but it is how i feel
 thomasadixon 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
>
> There isn't a problem. What is being investigated is replacing existing tat abseils with chains.

I can't really see much of a difference between bolts and chains - both are put there by someone else for your convenience, totally different to someone leaving tat. I don't believe that people really check chains and bolts, if you don't trust the tat you can just replace it.
 Michael Ryan 01 Jun 2008
 Al Evans 01 Jun 2008
In reply to communier: Errrrrrrr!, All I'm saying I think it would be good if we re-established the principle of walking off rather than always abseiling, obviously a bolt station would re-inforce the principle of abseiling????
 thomasadixon 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I've seen the pictures... Would it be okay to deliberately gear up routes if they used natural gear instead of bolts?
 Michael Ryan 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to communier) Errrrrrrr!, All I'm saying I think it would be good if we re-established the principle of walking off rather than always abseiling

It's already established, you don't need to restablish it.

>obviously a bolt station would re-inforce the principle of abseiling????

No one is suggesting bolts. See Ron Kenyon's post.

Abseil chains in Lakes
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=302731

 Michael Ryan 01 Jun 2008
In reply to thomasadixon:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> I've seen the pictures... Would it be okay to deliberately gear up routes if they used natural gear instead of bolts?

What does 'gear up' mean?

 thomasadixon 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Putting in permanent protection every few metres like on bolted routes, but using natural placements.
communier 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Al Evans:

sorry al, i didn't read anything of yours before posting. it was based purely on the op
 thomasadixon 01 Jun 2008
In reply to thomasadixon:

Btw I'd say enviromental reasons (like killing trees) is a good reason to put in slings with mallions, like at shorn cliff.
 jl100 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Mark Stevenson) Excuse me Mark, Tributary Crack is a 40ft 'Easy' Diff. You are surely not trying to tell me that anybody who has climbed up there cannot ungear and solo it to the descent?

I climbed up CG once and wouldn't be happy soloing it. One mistake there and youll fall and maybe even take others with you if you/they were particularly unlucky. I walked down because i used a single. Dont just assume everyones happy soloing, especially when it could endager others, as has been said most accidents happen scrambling around on exposed terrain like this unroped. I dont think they should stop at just bolting the belays, some of those routes look a bit runout too.
 Al Evans 01 Jun 2008
In reply to JoeL 90:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> [...]
>
> I climbed up CG once and wouldn't be happy soloing it.

Whats CG, I'm talking about Tributary Crack?
 jl100 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Al Evans: Cemetary Gates. i know the route you on about i climbed up it in order to walk down, but i did not solo, and i thought is was silly of you to assume anyone who's got to that situation would be happy doing so.
 DaveWarb 01 Jun 2008
In reply to JoeL 90:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> [...]
I dont think they should stop at just bolting the belays, some of those routes look a bit runout too.

Troll!

 jl100 01 Jun 2008
In reply to DaveWarb: True. Its was a bit obvious really wasn't it? Thought as it was tagged on the end a bit, someone would bite. 0/10
OP mr mills 01 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I totally agree with you there mick bolts have no place on mountain crags, I just wanted a feel of what the general view of climbers were on this issue. I have read all the threads and have not come to a conclusion ! Hopefully as mark reeves said we`ll bring it up in the next BMC local area meeting ! As usuall every man and his dog has his/her opinion on this sensitive issue, and as the old adage goes you can please some of the people some of the time but you can`t please all of the people all of the time. cheers !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 AlisonS 01 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills:

How do you know the tree minds? It might actually like the attention. It seems to have survived this treatment OK for a great many years.
 Al Evans 02 Jun 2008
In reply to AlisonS:
> (In reply to mr mills)
>
> How do you know the tree minds? It might actually like the attention. It seems to have survived this treatment OK for a great many years.


Not a great many years, comparatively recently in its life when this practice came in actually. I think the tree prefers it if you say hello, smile, wave at it, then walk down.


 Simon Caldwell 02 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> > All I'm saying I think it would be good if we re-established the principle of walking off rather than always abseiling

> It's already established, you don't need to restablish it.

Are you sure about that? On our last trip to Gimmer, we were the only people that I saw using the descent gully, everyone else was abseiling down A route - even those climbing on the right of the crag, who had to walk past the descent gully to get to the abseil! Presumably they then had to abseil a second time to get of the terrace, there was certainly a constant queue there.

Only one day's experience of course, so quite possibly the exception rather than the rule.
 GrahamD 02 Jun 2008
In reply to Toreador:

Queuing for the abseils off Gimmer does seem to be the norm these days.
 Michael Ryan 02 Jun 2008
In reply to Toreador:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)


> Only one day's experience of course, so quite possibly the exception rather than the rule.

Ditto. On Saturday, I saw five parties descending the South West Gully. No idea how many were using the ab chains.

It is incredibly dodgy to draw conclusions from one experience but we all seem to do it. Someone said that mountain crags were deserted because they experienced no one at Pillar, again dodgy.

Same day at Raven, many were descending via Middlefell Gully - very dangerous, and the Oak Tree Terrace scramble down. I did see one party slightly epic on the descent further rightthat is not recommended, a father and son team.

 IanJackson 02 Jun 2008
In reply to DaveWarb:

> I dont think they should stop at just bolting the belays, some of those routes look a bit runout too.

Recon Lord of the Flies would make a great F6c?




In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Oh what bollocks, Mick. I can't even remember how I got down off Raven, but it certainly wasn't 'very dangerous'. It's some bit of hillside which you descend taking care not to fall over any clifflets in your path. Munroists do it all the time.

jcm
 Michael Ryan 02 Jun 2008
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

The descents are dangerous John and are not to be underestimated. Care is needed.

Make sure if descending from, Middlefell to get out the gully as soon as you can - you may be unlucky and get hit by a stone from a sheep or person above.

Also make sure you use the Oak Tree Terrace descent.
James Jackson 02 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
>
> The descents are dangerous John and are not to be underestimated. Care is needed.

This is true of every descent though, and is no reason for blanket equipping of crags (not that you're suggesting this...). Education is required, not gear.
 Michael Ryan 02 Jun 2008
In reply to James Jackson:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
> This is true of every descent though, and is no reason for blanket equipping of crags (not that you're suggesting this...). Education is required, not gear.

Absolutely.

The first course of action should be very graphic descent information in guidebooks outlining safer and hazardous descents.

This is done quite well in the FRCC select guide to the Lakes but it could be better.

 Dom Whillans 02 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills:
***ponders***
maybe if people had to walk off the top of climbing walls...
 Al Evans 02 Jun 2008
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> Oh what bollocks, Mick. I can't even remember how I got down off Raven, but it certainly wasn't 'very dangerous'. It's some bit of hillside which you descend taking care not to fall over any clifflets in your path. Munroists do it all the time.
>
> jcm

Wordswoth's take on this descent

"Said Walter, leaping from the ground,
"Down to the stump of yon old yew
We'll for our whistles run a race."
--Away the shepherds flew;
They leapt--they ran--and when they came
Right opposite to Dungeon-Ghyll,
Seeing that he should lose the prize, 40
"Stop!" to his comrade Walter cries--
James stopped with no good will:
Said Walter then, exulting, "Here
You'll find a task for half a year.

"Cross, if you dare, where I shall cross--
Come on, and tread where I shall tread."
The other took him at his word,
And followed as he led.
It was a spot which you may see
If ever you to Langdale go; 50
Into a chasm a mighty block
Hath fallen, and made a bridge of rock:
The gulf is deep below;
And, in a basin black and small,
Receives a lofty waterfall.

With staff in hand across the cleft
The challenger pursued his march;
And now, all eyes and feet, hath gained
The middle of the arch.
When list! he hears a piteous moan-- 60
Again!--his heart within him dies--
His pulse is stopped, his breath is lost,
He totters, pallid as a ghost,
And, looking down, espies
A lamb, that in the pool is pent
Within that black and frightful rent."

Oh f**k it, lets abseil off.

 Michael Ryan 02 Jun 2008
In reply to Al Evans:

Nice Al.

I don't think anyone abseils off Raven by the way. Sorry to disappoint you.

Quite apt quoting Wordsworth as we have two Photography articles coming up from the Wordsworth Trust at Grasmere.
 CJD 02 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I took a nice 50ft fall coming down off Raven last summer, descending to the right of Centipede. I'm happy to acknowledge that i slipped on wet grass, and that I'd still rather walk off than ab off in most circumstances. It *was* an exercise in how it can be a good thing to keep one's helmet on for the descent - d'oh.
 Alun 02 Jun 2008
In reply to IanJackson:
> Recon Lord of the Flies would make a great F6c?

I'm sick and bloody tired of facile arguments such as these, they do nothing for the debate. Anyway it felt more like 7a to me, though I was only seconding.

My opinion is that there is no need for bolts at the top of the Cromlech, but I would favour permanent chains for the abseil stations at the top of the LW and CC.
 Al Evans 02 Jun 2008
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
>
> Nice Al.
>
> I don't think anyone abseils off Raven by the way. Sorry to disappoint you.

Can you address that to jcm then rather than me, it was after all him that brought it up.
 Bruce Hooker 02 Jun 2008
In reply to Dom Whillans:
> (In reply to mr mills)
> ***ponders***
> maybe if people had to walk off the top of climbing walls...

I think you've got something here

It would need to include a few thickets of gorse and be slimy underfoot to get the real life experience though. Perhaps they could give people a reduction if they accepted the "eco-walk-down option"?

 Michael Ryan 02 Jun 2008
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
> Can you address that to jcm then rather than me, it was after all him that brought it up.

You are having difficulty comprehending again Al.

It was a a reply to your Wordsworth poem which ended with "Oh f**k it, lets abseil off."

Try and keep up.

 Alun 02 Jun 2008
In reply to Dom Whillans:
> maybe if people had to walk off the top of climbing walls...

In some decent walls (viz. Mile End in London) this is exactly what you have to do at the top of many problems.
 Mike Raine 02 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills:

Sorry haven't time to read the thread (but I can guess how it goes!) Must just put the record straight, the BCM have not put any ab stations in the Pass, any ab stations placed have been the work of the North wales Climbers action Group

OP mr mills 02 Jun 2008
In reply to Mike Raine:
> (In reply to mr mills)
>
> Sorry haven't time to read the thread (but I can guess how it goes!) Must just put the record straight, the BCM have not put any ab stations in the Pass, any ab stations placed have been the work of the North wales Climbers action Group

whom might they be then mike ? never heard of them before ! are they local activists working undercover or are they actually a bonafida proper organisation ?
 Ian McNeill 03 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills:

group of real people aided and abetted by the BMC

see the wikis for details http://tinyurl.com/4jev3t
 Alun 03 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills:
> whom might they be then mike ? never heard of them before !

The NWCAG have advertised many of their meetings extensively on here and elsewhere. They generally help organise and sponsor crag cleanups etc.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/search.php?forum=0&dates=1&na...
 IanJackson 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Alun:

> Recon Lord of the Flies would make a great F6c?

Doesnt the thought make you feel sick inside thou? That's why i wouldn't like to see bolted belay stations. Unnecessary, unethical, and just another nail in the coffin for the UK traditional style.
 d8vehinton 03 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills:

Oh well, here we go again! Here's some ramblings.

20 years ago when I led all the main routes on the Cromlech we abseiled off on a load of tat!

10 years ago when I repeated RW on a perfect June day the route was dirty and had hardly had an ascent that year. There were however about 20 people playing on the boulders. ( Ten years previosly on a whitsun week my ascent of RW was the first of 6 other ascents on the same day. )

A few well placed abseil equipment with modern materials and resins will not be the death of traditional climbing. The decline of trad climbing will gradually occur if people aren't motivated to climb the routes.

Certain crags have a tradition of abseil back down, Cromlech is a perfect example where when you get the right conditions and your feeling good you want to get straight back on another route. Also the routes on the Cromlech are almost too good to second! A quick abseil removal of the gear allows your partner the same experience on that or a neighbouring route. I'm pleased that I experienced leading these routes without having been on them before. Confidence and enjoyment gained on these routes will encourage individuals to look and discover the great trad climbs of this country unfortunately many of which are being reclaimed by vegetation.

For me enjoying the Cromlech was about having a range of great long pitches over a spread of grades. Is was not about scrambling down loose gullies in tight rock shoes, that's why most people abseil off. I believe we should where appropriate put high quality fixings in to eliminate eyesore thread rap stations and stop abusing the poor battered trees which would recover if we gave them a chance.

After we are now all climbing with greatly improved rock shoes, thin strong ropes, lightweight incredibly strong carabiners, fantastic flexible cams, brilliant shaped colour coded nuts. 21st century belays would not be out of place.
 MattOwen 03 Jun 2008
For what its worth:

I'm extremely proud of the UK tradition of Trad climbing. Throughout France and switzerland (I've not climbed much in Italy or Spain but I believe it is similar) the mountains are littered with bolts and gear.

I've climbed up perfect crack features (which would probably have been graded Severe) which are bolted in the swiss pre-alps. And though I've not been there the thought of fixed ropes on the Matterhorn makes me want to cry.

The problem with bolting a rock is that it sets a precedent.

One bolt will lead to another. An abseil bolt will lead to bolted belays. This cannot be allowed to happen. We need to conserve our mountains.

If an abseil station is needed, some non-permanent in-situ gear is ok. But fundamentally climbers should use their wits and make their own way down in the way which suits them best.
 Dom Whillans 03 Jun 2008
In reply to d8vehinton:
good points, well made! appropriate maybe for the main cromlech area. a crag by crag approach is needed IMHO as i could foresee people putting forward similar (and unnecessary) reasons for ab stations on idwal, the grochan, milestone buttress etc etc.
 Ian Jones 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Traveller:

Can I just say that I like old tat on threads and pegs etc.; it is one of those intriguing aspects of British climbing.
 LakesWinter 03 Jun 2008
In reply to d8vehinton: Surely the change you observed over the 10 years between your ascents of right wall is more down to changes in climbing fashion than the convenience of descent! If people were that bothered/able to climb RW then a little walking on the way down wouldn't put them off.

It is interesting to note that although the quality of equipment has increased loads over the last 20 years the proportion (not number) of climbers climbing above E1 regularly has probably dropped. Why this is I am not so sure.....
 IanJackson 03 Jun 2008
In reply to MattG:

> of climbers climbing above E1 regularly has probably dropped. Why this is I am not so sure.....

Gear doesnt improve a climbers fittness?
 Justin T 03 Jun 2008
In reply to MattG:

Because it has become a more accessible passtime, therefore by definition one does not have to be such a 'devotee' to partake.
 Wilbur 03 Jun 2008
why not a chain with a krab system similar to the one on the Inn Pin... doesn't seem to have led to mass-scale bolting on Skye!!
 LakesWinter 03 Jun 2008
In reply to quadmyre: yeah, maybe people in general are less 'hardcore' about it than many climbers in the past. So we need to defend the traditional practice of British climbing which involves a full range of physical and mental skills in a manner which sport routes do not.
 richard kirby 03 Jun 2008
In reply to MattG:
>
> It is interesting to note that although the quality of equipment has increased loads over the last 20 years the proportion (not number) of climbers climbing above E1 regularly has probably dropped. Why this is I am not so sure.....

That will be the bouldering boom!!

Fashions/trends/disciplines will come and go. See recent slate comeback/clean up. Slate activity hasn't been this significant since the 80's.

Trad will return again - particularly with the advent of trad DVD's & increased o/s & ground up ethics. All very refreshing.




 Michael Ryan 03 Jun 2008
In reply to richard kirby:
> (In reply to MattG)


> Trad will return again - particularly with the advent of trad DVD's & increased o/s & ground up ethics. All very refreshing.

True trad has made a comeback (not that it ever disappeared - as every weekend thosands of climbers are onsighting)...

See:

Jun 2: Belgian Duo on Fire at Gogarth - Second Ascent of Mad Brown
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=06&year=2008#n44600

May 26: Neil Dickson - Hollow Man E7/8 & others On-Sight
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=05&year=2008#n44491

May 23: Birkett - 'My Piano' - E8 Onsight
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=05&year=2008#n44432

May 16: Onsight fever hits North Wales - E8 attempts
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=05&year=2008#n44259

And UKC's own Jack Geldard's

Gravediggers E8 6c - An accidental on-sight attempt
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1021

Both Alpinist and Climbing have been in touch with Jack and myself and are running reports/articles on the true hard trad renaissance in the UK.

Mick

 Tyler 03 Jun 2008
In reply to MattOwen:

> The problem with bolting a rock is that it sets a precedent.

> One bolt will lead to another. An abseil bolt will lead to bolted belays. This cannot be allowed to happen. We need to conserve our mountains.

Is there actually any evidence of this? The contrary seems to be the case, odd bolts on Cloggy and Gogarth have invariably been placed by experiecned old stagers and have not led to proliferation. Younger generations have come along and removed them.
 Enty 03 Jun 2008
In reply to d8vehinton:
> (In reply to mr mills)
>
> 10 years ago when I repeated RW on a perfect June day the route was dirty and had hardly had an ascent that year. There were however about 20 people playing on the boulders. ( Ten years previosly on a whitsun week my ascent of RW was the first of 6 other ascents on the same day. )
>
>

Funny that, when I did it 6 years ago, I was the third that day and two teams were waiting to get on it afterwards. One of our team and another team did Lord too.
The previous week when I did Resurrection I watched 3 more ascents of RW.
We continued up to do Grond and watched Pete Robbins trying to onsight Rumblefish.
Aye, dying a death Hard British Trad....

The Ent
 Enty 03 Jun 2008
In reply to d8vehinton:
> (In reply to mr mills)
>
> The decline of trad climbing will gradually occur if people aren't motivated to climb the routes.
>
>

Have you been in Huntsmans Leap recently on a warm weekend????? You better book a place for anything over E5 down there.


> After we are now all climbing with greatly improved rock shoes, thin strong ropes, lightweight incredibly strong carabiners, fantastic flexible cams, brilliant shaped colour coded nuts. 21st century belays would not be out of place.

I haven't noticed any difference in my shoes, ropes, krabs since the late 80's.

The Ent

 MattOwen 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Tyler:
> (In reply to MattOwen)
>
> Is there actually any evidence of this?

To be honest, I don't know. But it makes sense to me as a hypothesis.

It certainly is the case that in countries where bolts are commonly placed their use becomes endemic.

 richard kirby 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Enty:
> (I
>
> I haven't noticed any difference in my shoes, ropes, krabs since the late 80's.
>

Thats nothing to do with better kit being out there..... your just , mmm, frugal



 JamieAyres 03 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills:

Bolts on the Cromlech?

No way.

That's just bollocks.

They'd just get chopped anyway.

Best not to start IMHO
 Niall 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Enty:

> I haven't noticed any difference in my shoes, ropes, krabs since the late 80's.

I wouldn't like to use your rope then!
 Enty 03 Jun 2008
In reply to richard kirby:

Ha ! I am a bit but my last lot of Decathlon quickdraws bought about 5 years ago are almost identical to my Kong Bonnati quicks bought in 1987.

My Asolo Runouts (circa 1989) were the best boots I have ever owned.

And my ropes are...well....they are ....erm....ropes...about 8mm thick.

The Ent
 Tyler 03 Jun 2008
In reply to MattOwen:

> To be honest, I don't know. But it makes sense to me as a hypothesis.

In other words you made something up to support your argument.
 Bruce Hooker 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Enty:

I still use my cassin bonnati crabs, both the blue ones and the lighter red gate ones... the climbing shoes I just bought and the couple of pairs before don't seem any better than my old PAs, except the old ones protected my ankles... as for nuts, I can't see what real difference colour coding makes !

The ropes are a bit thinner then before 8.6 instead of 9mm... I think the progress in gear is exaggerated by people that weren't around in the 70s or 80s... the main new thing seems to be cams and everyone wearing harnesses.

What has changed, especially on the continent, is the level of bolting... France is just all bolts now, so most people just never bother to learn about placing gear... they assume it will always be there, and moan if it isn't, even in the mountains. This bolt invasion has been done in about 30 years, or maybe less. Before there were pitons left in place but few bolts... Not even bolts really, they are great steel loops or rings cemented in with resin.
 Niall 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Enty:

> And my ropes are...well....they are ....erm....ropes...about 8mm thick.
>
> The Ent


Yes but they were 11mm when you bought them in the 80s!
 MattOwen 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Tyler:
>
> In other words you made something up to support your argument.

No.

I said it would create a precedent. It would.
I cited evidence from France and Switzerland where bolting is endemic.


 Wilbur 03 Jun 2008
In reply to MattOwen:

Britain is unique and hardly comparable to the situation in France. I don't think they've ever been anti-bolting on the routes themselves have they?!

A guess of course. My point is you're not comparing like to like.

I'm not sure i'd want to see bolts but i'd have no problem with a chain as per on Skye on the Inn Pin.. maybe the best solution all round?
 gingerkate 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Bruce Hooker and anyone else who might know:
I don't know much about the history of bolts in France, so educate me:
Was there once a strong anti-bolt feeling in France, as there is here? If there was, why didn't the proliferating bolts just get chopped? Was there much flourishing trad climbing in France before all the bolts arrived?

I think what I'm wanting to know is, was it ever like the UK ... with a predominance of trad, and bolts only acceptable on certain rock types, and then only on lines that haven't been previously climbed... was there a point in France's history which is similar to where the UK is at now, or has climbing in France followed a different path to climbing in Britain?
 Tyler 03 Jun 2008
In reply to gingerkate:

The difference is that France's free climbing tradition (outside of Font) is relatively short. Routes were climbed with aid etc which naturaly meant a proliferation of situ gear. Free climbing developed when these routes were freed so it was natural that the in situ protection was used.
 Doug 03 Jun 2008
In reply to gingerkate: Climbing on small crags in France was traditionally sen as 'practice' for the real thing (ie big routes in the alps) so similar ethics were used - lots of aid, mostly from pegs. 'Freeclimbing' started to be fashionable in the 70s, partly due to American & British influence and there was a move to clean up French crags by removing a lot of the ancient pegs. Jean Claude Droyer was probably the leading light and crags such as Martinswand (Vosges) became almost peg free.

But about the same time bolts started to arrive on the scene, at first to protect the allbut unprotectable, but also at 'ecole d'escalade' which were aimed at beginners.

By the time I first lived in France (early 90s) most popular crags had been bolted, often lines of bolts alongside lovely crack systems, even on routes on 4 or 5.

There is a small movement trying to preserve whats left of 'trad' climbing but they seem to be fighting a loosing battle.

Thats very simplified, and the exact details vary with region.
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Wilbur:
>
> Britain is unique and hardly comparable to the situation in France.

Well apart from the USA, Canada, Norway and Australia (to name a few) which all have a heathy Trad ethic?


Chris
 gingerkate 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Doug and Tyler:

So France never had a flourishing trad scene in the way the UK has?
 Enty 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Niall:
> (In reply to Enty)
>
> [...]
>
>
> Yes but they were 11mm when you bought them in the 80s!

No they were'nt. I had two 9's.

The Ent

OP mr mills 03 Jun 2008
In reply to JamieAyres:

Bolts on the Cromlech ? - any suggestions then ?

No way - `freedom of expression, fine !

That`s just bollocks - language !

They`d just get chopped anyway - stating the obvious there !

Best not to start IMHO - IMHO ? ? ?
 ginger_lord 03 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills:

I found getting to the base of Dinas Cromlech much scarier than the descent route, which was pretty simple and easy.

Only did Flying Buttress though and plenty of people were using the descent route there, didnt even see anyone abbing off.
 Mick Ward 03 Jun 2008
In reply to gingerkate:

As Doug says, crags were seen as practice grounds for the Alps. With a premium on speed in the mountains, pulling on aid ('tire clous'?) was seen as appropriate. Droyer and others got hard free climbing going in the late 1970s and, afaik, the first F7as were done trad (Sainte Victoire, skyhook pro on gouttes d'eau - gulp!) But, almost immediately, sport climbing got going and, within five years (circa 1980-85), the French made massive advances and became world champs. In many areas, sport became the norm, perhaps by default.

Again, as Doug says, much simplified, e.g. in the Ariege, both forms co-exist.

Mick
OP mr mills 03 Jun 2008
In reply to ginger_lord: been up on the gromlech about a dozen times in the past two months ! only seen one group top out on Ivy Sepulchre Crack, the reason they topped out was that they only had one rope ! n.b - do you mean the base of flying buttress or the base of cenotaph ?
 d8vehinton 03 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills:

Lot of mention of the Alps. However has ever a team ever returned to retrieve the tat they have left behind to safeguard their descents. Sure a few diligently remove the old and replace with new but when it's dark, when your tired, when the weather's closing in ??

When I climbed in the alps you took your old tapes and other bits of crap to leave behind deiberatley to facilitate your descents.

Yes arranging belays and rapelling is a part of the skill of mountaineering and climbing but to me the primary joy has always been the challenge of the climb and the location.

I have fond memories of climbing at Devils Tower many years ago. Brilliant excellent pitches swallowing up copius pieces of pro however many of classic pitches had in-situ belays. It didn't devalue the experience for me!
 Bruce Hooker 03 Jun 2008
In reply to gingerkate:

The term "trad" didn't exist when I climbed in Britain, that was the only way, apart from a bit of artificial. In France the main driving force was Alpine climbing (Doug has summed it up well already) and nuts were unknown, pitons were used when there wasn't enough natural protection. The bolt invasion came from the USA I think, but also from the Dolomites where "spits" were first used (I think).

So the move was from pegs on crags, a brief fascination with British ethics, then heavy bolting... the sports climbing ethic, much bolstered by high club activity and municipal councils worrying about safety, insurance etc. For example in the 70s the Saussois was mostly artificial, then there was a move to freeing routes but still using fixed protection like pegs and even chains and various bits of iron and now cemented eye-bolts but free at high technical grades.

There is one place where ethics still rule and all aid is out - Fontainebleau.
In reply to mr mills:

I've only skim-read this thread, but it's incredible to me that many modern babies can't cope with the two very good, and long-existing, descent options from the Cromlech. Just what is the real problem ? ?
 Al Evans 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to gingerkate)
>
> The term "trad" didn't exist when I climbed in Britain, that was the only way, apart from a bit of artificial.

Even artificial was 'trad', there was a massive controversial debate about an all out bolt route called 'Brandenburg Gate' on Raven Tor, Its now a free sport route called, I think, 'The Whore of Babylon' , but that might have been superceeded by a more direct line by Steve McClure.
 Andy Cloquet 03 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills: I think that positioning abseil bolts on the Cromlech might encourage the unscrupulous climbing group 'leaders' to set-up their ropes on these walls: and please don't think I'm exaggerating because I've witnessed it on other crags. The most vandalistic I saw was a cadet group being abseiled over 'The Sloth': where the underswing from each cadet brought them directly into contact with the flakes, many of which have been shortened over the years but certainly saw considerable damage on the day I was there, over 15 yrs ago.

I also think that were a line to be established, it would become so polished that any route inline of the descent would become unusable.
aye, Andy
 Jamie B 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Al Evans:

Might be mistaken, but isn't Brandenburg Gate the line taken by Gaskins' sick-hard project?
 Jamie B 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Andy Cloquet:

I'm struggling to imagine a worse group abseil site than roaches Upper Tier.

No wait; I've got one - The Cromlech. They have to climb E1 or downclimb Diff to reach the take-off. Nice.
OP mr mills 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: read the postings by other climbers on this thread gordon then come back with a positive reply, you can`t just brush things under the carpet with such a negative response, and why exactly are you refering that it`s `modern babies` who can`t cope with this issue ( whatever you mean by that) ! ! !
In reply to mr mills:

Have spent a few more minutes reading it. Can't see any great issue here. The old 'tat' at the top of the Corner has been replaced by some good slings, it seems, while the alternative descent (which gets you to the bottom of the crag in c. 5-10 mins) sounds just the same as it ever was. Here, surely, is a case for leaving things well alone?
In reply to mr mills:

PS. Nothing negative about it coming from me. I think it's great as it is.
OP mr mills 03 Jun 2008
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: I respect your views gordon and the views of the others whom have contributed to this thread, it does not mean that i agree/disagree with them, personally i dont think anything will happend with the situation on the gromlech, i`m sure that 99.9% of climbers care passionately for our ethics and traditions and have an understanding of the impact that we have on our mountain crags and environment.
 nickstephens 03 Jun 2008
To get this straight, I am anti bolt on traditional climbs because I have seen what one person and a cordless drill can do even when there is adequate protection. I also admit I haven't been to the top of the Cromlech for quite a few years and I don't tend to remember trees at the top of climbs at the best of times, so I am not sure how big this tree is. As far as I am aware most of the damage suffered from the tree is associated with ropes cutting into the bark. I have seen a relatively inconspicuous rubber wrap (quite a loose looking affair) with a steel wire running through it somewhere at the top of a climb. Can't remember where but thinking somewhere around the Wye or maybe hidden away on the Gower somewhere (hopefully somebody knows what i am on about). Surely somebody could ask somebody who works with trees (I mean more of the tree surgeon variety rather than the tree hugger variety before that comment comes back at me) whether the tree is going to notice. I am sure that tree will probably be belaying people, long after most of us are dead and buried. Then the question is whether a rubber wrap around a tree is more unsightly than a couple of bolts and a chain, but at least it is removable without a trace in a theory. It would at least be worth a test, and I can think of a couple of trees that could benefit from such a device in the Wye valley for example. I think the reality is that abseiling is part of climbing whether people like it or not.
 Jamie B 03 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills:

What exactly would a bolted abseil station create that is missing? In what way is the current arrangement deficient?
In reply to mr mills:

>i`m sure that 99.9% of climbers care passionately for our ethics and traditions and have an understanding of the impact that we have on our mountain crags and environment.

You are??

Sheesh.

I would put the figure at 10%.

jcm
OP mr mills 04 Jun 2008
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: now you are being a hypocrite, I might be exagerating a bit there, but as a conservationist/climber and known/met hundereds/thousands of climbers over the years your figure of 10% ridicules every decent person out there who cares about issues which affect the way in which they treat the environment.
 Wilbur 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Andy Cloquet:

you'd need a 90 metre rope to top-rope routes at the cromlech!!
 Al Evans 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Wilbur: Naw! You dont have to go to the top of the crag on the climb, just ab down to the chains at 35mts, fix your rope and you can top rope all day on a 70mt rope.
 Al Evans 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Jamie B.:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
>
> Might be mistaken, but isn't Brandenburg Gate the line taken by Gaskins' sick-hard project?

"The Whore of Babylon
This was an early attempt to free the aid route Brandenburg Gate which included what is now Hubble and created, briefly, one of the longest sport routes in the Peak. The Hubble moves were by-passed by three pulls on bolts before reaching a flake. Above this it followed what is now Mega Whore. A crucial flake, used to connect Hubble to Mega Whore, has fallen off and the route hasn't been reclimbed since.
FA. Andy Pollitt (3pts) 1987. FAA. (as Brandenburg Gate) Brian Moore, Jim Ballard 1966."

 turkey 04 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills: It seems there are logical conclusions to the arguments here

1. Place ab bolts, then later place lowering bolts on each climb (get down on 60m ropes) because everyone's in each others way and its more CONVENIENT. Then later bolt up the climbs once certain gear placements blow as it's more CONVENIENT than 'psyching up' and allows more people to do the routes.

2. Use ab chains on healthy trees and rely on mountaincraft (personnal experience and judgement) to get down. A little less CONVENIENT and far less permanent but far more SATISFYING!
Aiden Wright 04 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills: is there any proof that putting chains round trees kills them? i would say that a few well placed, common sense chains would be very sensible. i know that the thin end of the wedge argument will be wheeled out, but its just an empty bit of rhetoric
 Bruce Hooker 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Aiden Wright:

> .... but its just an empty bit of rhetoric

If only!
 chris j 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Aiden Wright: It's pulling ropes round the trees that kills them isn't it? Chains / wires coated in plastic / thick rope loops don't damage the trees as they stay insitu and don't move.
OP mr mills 04 Jun 2008
In reply to chris j: I can recall a few years back there was a plastic coated wire around a tree at the top of the plumb (bwlch y moch), not there anymore ! bwlch y moch is a totally different situation though as walking down is so easy and safe. I`m not sure if the BMC put the wire on the tree but it could be an option to try out on the gromlech !
 Bruce Hooker 04 Jun 2008
OP mr mills 04 Jun 2008
In reply to Bruce Hooker: on that note i`d like to thank all contributors to this thread and hope that climbing in britain will keep it`s traditional values, and that whoever you are keep crimping hard ! dont be to quick to judge others untill you have walked a mile in their shoes !
 LakesWinter 04 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills: And dont put a bolted ab station anywhere near a British mountain (ish in the case of the cromlech, it's hardly far from the road!!!) crag.
OP mr mills 04 Jun 2008
In reply to MattG: I never intended to matt, it`s people like you who always want the last word isn`t it ? the thread was not meant to be am I going to put a bolt on the gromlech, it was a general question in order to get the views of climbers in general across the uk into what their views were on this subject ! also read the lakes thread, similar topic and a very interestin debate there also ! bye !
 whispering nic 04 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills:
Far too much froth to read it all, but I fully support the replacement of any unsightly tat with chains, and event bolts. And as for people who claim that a pile of tat is less of an eyesore than two drill holes, yet live in the south of France - WTF?!
 halo 05 Jun 2008
In reply to mr mills:

I can't believe you would even consider such an act of barbarism! There are plenty of natural anchors to use for abbing.

Dinas Cromlech is one of the greatest traditional crags in the world people from all over come to visit this crag, for it's heritage and climbing not to be abb from an in-situ bolt.

 Bruce Hooker 05 Jun 2008
In reply to whispering nic:

When we chose to live in France I don't recall filling in a form about the use of bolts on the cliffs here

You seem to have a difficulty with seeing the relations (or lack of ) between totally various states or effects!
 Morgan Woods 05 Jun 2008
In reply to halo:
> (In reply to mr mills)
>
> > Dinas Cromlech is one of the greatest traditional crags in the world people from all over come to visit this crag, for it's heritage and climbing not to be abb from an in-situ bolt.

yes but they go there for the climbing not the abbing.

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