UKC

Went today to the new climbing wall at Brixton, London. The old wall was demolished and a new 'state' of the art wall was built. Was quite disappointed: no bouldering or leading in the new wall, only top-roping. The wall is about 8m by 8m high, with a small added section of traverse (10m), for a grand total of about 90m2. Now, there is an ANNUAL membership fee of £7.00...!!!! What's that? £6.00 for a top-rope session if you're a member, and £10.00 if you're not...!!! This must be the biggest rip off ever, as the Brixton Wall was built by the council with taxpayers money and it's supposed to be subsidized. I'm really p**@# off as there are no leading indoor walls in South London. Sorry about the rant but I had to take it out of my chest! Is it just me or anybody else feels these charges are unfair for such a small wall????

In reply to dycotiles:

Without seeing the wall, does sound a bit expensive to me.

In reply to dycotiles:
That is more expensive than the Westway, which offers bouldering and excellent lead climbing over a large area so yes, I would say it's a rip off. Shame as the old wall was cheap and cheerful.

In reply to dycotiles:
Not sure how you have worked out it is more expencive than Westway as I pay £9.50 a session as a member there.

In reply to RBonline:

It's £10.50 now!

In reply to SuperTed:
no way! I left London in August but used to be a regular at the Westway up until then. Sounds like they have hiked the prices up quite a bit since.

In reply to practicalcat:
that's a 'no way!' of shock, btw - I'm not doubting your word

In reply to dycotiles:
comparing westway to what you've just described sounds kind of meaningless to me. Being from the void of climbing walls also known as south london, I will soon go and have a look at this top roping extravaganza. Any idea of opening times and registration and availability? It sounds like they've built something for school use only... Is it featured or bolt ons and what kind of routes did they have? All vertical or anything steeper?

In reply to dycotiles:

I went to the Brixton grand opening on Wednesday.

As a local I'm pretty disappointed really. Was hoping for a small venue to do a one hour potter on way home from work. I never really went to the old Brixton wall much, but it had it's charms but a small top roping centre is no good to me at all. At least the old wall had pads. The new wall is fit only for novices.

Pricy too considering it has approx 3% of the wall space of Mile End at 80% of the price.

In reply to dpc: No longer the void come October as the new Craggy Wall in Sutton is officially within the London Borough and although not offering leading or top roping will be truly comprehensive. Well in a bouldering kind of a way! ....it'll even have a bar!!

In reply to Cliff Hanger:

Well if bouldering walls count ( & I think he specifically required leading) then the best in London is already in S. London (although only by about 100m).

In reply to dycotiles: Why doesn't someone post a photo or two of the new wall so that we can all see what it's like. If only someone took photos of indoor climbing walls in South London..........

In reply to tommyzero:

someone who was a Climber in Brixton, perhaps?

In reply to tommyzero: lol

In reply to dpc:

I used to live in Brixton until last August, but commuted to Westway for the indoor climbing. I therefore naturally compared the two as if I still lived there I would be comparing the available quality of climbing and deciding if proximity would compensate for lack of lead routes and bouldering. I would also be factoring in the price. Apologies for not explaining my thinking.

In reply to practicalcat: I stand corrected, it is meaningful as I do what you do, ... or did, or something. I'll remember it for next time; quality, price, proximity, and type of available climbing. Quality, price, proximity, type...quality, price, proximity, type...quality, price, proximity, time.. no...type. I'll get there in a minute..

In reply to dpc:
lol

In reply to dycotiles:

I used to love the old brixton wall. not been to the new yet, but

- when you say top-roping... you mean, no autobelay machines, you need someone else to belay you? so no good for solo potters any more?

- you said £7 annual membership - £7 / year sounds ok - or do you mean £7 / session??

Cheers
Paddy

In reply to pnorth:

It's 7 a year. Plus 5.95 per session. That's a rip off for a 8meter x 8meter piece of bolt-plastic. Compare that to the one-off registration fees at the West Way, the Castle and Mile end which range from 3-5 quiq!

The old wall was so much nicer. Was something very different from what was available in London generally. There were some jamming problems from 4c up to 6a (British!). Training there was really good to prepare you for Peak District leading.

When the council decided to demolish the old wall, the said the wanted to make a new better wall to broaden its accessibility. They wanted to make a good wall for beginners and experts alike. Obviously, they failed miserably. This new wall is only suitable for beginners. There are a few hard top-rope (no self belay machine) problems, but obviously, for a wall that only fits 4 top-ropes, in a couple of weeks you'll get bored to tears. Too pricey. No good for training. No good for bouldering. Now I have to keep commuting the castle, westway or mile end if I want to get a decent piece of indoor climbing. Ah, and Crystal Palace wall is also going down ...

In reply to dycotiles:

There seems to be a lot of this about (walls that are unusable for training) I can only assume it's profitable somehow with income from schools & grants).

Seems odd to me,as you can only be a beginner once so you must have to keep finding new customers over & over.

In reply to dycotiles: If funded, they may well have a good deal with local schools, which would explain why it's so expensive for us punters, as we are effectively just a nuisance.
I can try and find out who/what was behind it...? Will post if anything good (& publishable)

South London could have any number of great indoor leading walls if people stopped trying to build things on the massive scale of westways/castles/craggys...

F

In reply to fred_stone:

Brixton revamp organised by Climb London.

In reply to dycotiles: who dem?

In reply to fred_stone:

http://www.climblondon.co.uk/

In reply to dycotiles: ah ok, was making a point too that I've never really heard of them... heard of high sports though & this is a joint venture with GLL. So the registration fee should count for the other walls too then i guess, which isn't so bad even though i don't understand why you pay a registration fee. It's about 20 seconds work. (I'm being serious)

Seems a bit much if they're getting subsidised too.

Does anyone on the forum climb there? Any feedback?

f

In reply to fred_stone:

It is a council wall. It was built with council money as far as I understand. The problem also is that the people who manage this new all also recommended the demolition of the old one. What nonsense. I can envisage the wall being empty most of the time. It is fine to charge a high fee if you have someone taking care of kids/beginners as they need to be paid a good salary. But at normal hours, £5.95 for a wall which is supposed to be subsidized by my £96 a month Council Tax is plain ludicrous!

In reply to dycotiles:

I guess someone from climb london must be following this thread - maybe they'd like to comment on subsidies etc. ??

F

In reply to dycotiles:
Wow so pleased i don't live in London

It's difficult to register at Brixton at the moment - Climb London say you can register at any time when the Rec is open. The Rec reply that you need to come when 'they' (I think they mean Climb London) are there, which is Mondays and Thursdays between 4 o'clock and 9.

it gives the impression that no one knows what they're doing. A few weeks ago teh Brixton Rec people were asking how much people used to pay, as though they were still working out the price themselves...

In reply to linka: Tell them its a quid

In reply to brixton climber:

looks pretty cool

In reply to brixton climber: Thanks for photo... mais que pensez vous... monsieur Brixton? Are you doing the evening sessions? Do you know details of registration, opening hours etc? Is it worth a plug ou non?

In reply to dpc:
Dear dpc.
i think its going to be a good place for people starting climbing,this wall was built for this purpose i guess.the idea to attract people/youngster is very good especially in this area of south London.
So for the teaching point of view its very good (8 people maximum,i think]
As for people like me who use climbing wall to train,i cant say its something that i like, i don't really like plastic wall,but i get use to it like i got used to the old brixton wall or the still there xtall palace climbing wall,i got imagination and always find something new to do.
I hope to be back on wenesday evening,it is by tradition the brixton climbers'club night, everyone is welcome, the more the better,then we could aske for a bigger climbing wall.
still plenty of routes not done.
The overhang direct
the crack direct
the crack layback left/right.
im sure plenty more to come,i may have a look tonight from 8pm till late.
brixton climber

OK...I'm trying to stay calm. I learned to climb on the old Brixton DR wall. To demolish it is vandalism of the highest order, like knocking holds off the Fontainebleau boulders with a hammer. The old wall was a masterpiece of route planning by experts, with real rock problems. Very limited compared with the huge installations, but full of eccentric merit. I have heard that it was demolished for 'safety reasons'. Yes, it was close to a balustrade, but how many injuries were there? None, apart from a broken ankle when an instructor soloed in 2004 and came off from high up. That's like demolishing the Eiger because climbing it is risky. And to find out that the new company advised demolition is OUTRAGEOUS. The old wall presented an excellent training venue for first timers, had lead potential and was excellent training for the outdoors. The destruction of this wall appears to have been undertaken without public accountability, lacked rationale and is in essence unethical. DR walls are so rare that they should be preserved, not out of a misplaced sense of heritage but because they are like real crags...which we strive to protect, not destroy. If it is indeed the case that the new company suggested demolition then questions are to be answered. This is surely wanton destruction.

In reply to timO:
dear tim
Im french and really fight very hard to keep this climbing british heritage save from destruction.
the council should be blame for it, they lie to us. the new wall is more expensive for customer, top rope only ,10 people maximum,no leading, but they did bother to put a chitty crack[ that my new challenge].
i feel ashame as a climber to know that the compagny who assessed the old brixton wall and have it demolished and the contract to built the new one, they supposed to be climber.
shame to have lost this landmark in British climbing history, first climbing wall built in london i think.
brixton climber

In reply to brixton climber:

Pascal I guess it's you...I really miss climbing at the Brixton wall and I know that you will have worked hard to keep it open. What were you given as the reasons for closing it? I am not going to let this one drop - if there's a hint of bad practice in the council and/or the company which made the recommendation for demolition I will make sure that this is exposed. Can you tell me the reasons you were given by them?
Tim

In reply to timO:
dear tim.
Gll who took over all the leisure center in lamberth , asked the wall to be closed down and assessed for safety.
brixton climbers'club contacted the council.
than i think Hight sport[more detail from jhonnatan on brixton climbers yaou group].
declared that the wall wasn't safe because the wall wasn't 2m away from the fence.
the law regarding brixton wall wasn't retrospective and only few part of the wall were not a 2m. the crack was more than 2m.
then they say that crack and jam was dangerous[ we argue that none of the crack/finger crack could be dangerous, to slippery we say]
then they say we didn't have the choice anyway they were going to demolishes it and make the new one available for all [ the old wall was available for all as well]
then of course the same company who built all the GLL climbing wall got involved in building the new wall.
then of course the price went up.
then of course if you are a low earner you can only watch and hope.
and last , the new traverse is about 1m50cm from the fence
and the crack must be just about[ they put a panel to cover it]
as far as im concerned they is something fishy about the story.
brixton climber

In reply to brixton climber:

good to hear from you P. I've now got a lot of evidence from various sources (thanks M and others) and although I am very busy at work for the next couple of weeks (and then climbing in CH) I will put together a comprehensive article as soon as I can. I already have a lot of interest from some significant people on this sorry set of events. We could meet up in London next time I'm down -I'll check my diary and we'll try to get a time. Climb well. Tim

Shame! Takes me back to starting climbing, for such a small place it felt like a real crag....Railton Road, The Railway Tavern and the Atlantic were much more exciting places too back in the 80's!

In reply to Steve Kempley:

steve - when were you climbing there? Can you write me a paragraph of two that I can use in an article in climber and BMC mag? It would be great to get some quotes from some early users.
tim

In reply to timO:
dear tim.
as you know i started at brixton wall in 1989 every Wednesdays i was there, i teach/ helped more than thousand adult/children's/beginner/advance/disable.
the only accident i recall was myself and a very unlucky one , i was demonstrating how to climb the front face, on the way down[2m] i was losing my grip, i prepared my self for the landing, my foot slided along another climber' foot and directed my foot to a gap between the cushion[ we never new about this gap until this day], i hit hard the brick floor[ because i was preparing my fall into the cushion], then the rest is history[broken ankle].
the worse part of it is that for years i asked for new cushion.lucky it was me.
the idea of the crack/jam was dangerous show how little the people who assessed the wall know about climbing, it was impossible to get a finger/arm stuck in it, the design was just to perfect.they was no need to demolish the wall
brixton climber

In reply to timO:

Have you tried talking to Climb London or High Sports rather than airing your views in public? The BMC is not an antique climbing wall maintenance body, I'm sure they are interested in what is happening to walls around the country, but these places are privately run (or council run - basically the same as they need to make money). I'm convinced CL/HS are interested to hear what user past and present think and will respond to your views in some way. I believe they have a number of projects under review, so talk to them now while you can have some influence. Brixton Wall was never Fontainbleau (!) or even Stanage, but I understand it was/is important to its users, so direct your fire to the heart of the problem.

In reply to SuperTed:

I think the point that Tim and Pascal are making is that the parties involved have never tried to involve the public in their plan.

The previous management company for the Rec neglected the wall for years and actively tried to discourage users which came to a head in 2000/2001 when they tried to close it - it was only because of Pascal and others (I personally had several heated negotiations with the area manager - who was a very nice lady but working to some elses agenda) that we were still able to use it.

There was always a large number of climbers based around brixton but this has now deminished to just Pascal and a few others - all the rest of us have taken the hint and moved on.

I would love to think this is a new chapter in the wall, but I doubt it - there is currently great confusion how you register.

Forgive us if we seem paranoid but the history suggests we have every reason to be. I find it very strange that nobody from the new companies has commented on this forum or issued any press about the new facility on any of the major climbing sites. - or is it nieve of me to think they read them?

In reply to SuperTed:
I indeed have tried to contact them but all contacts through email have produced nothing. I have tried to call but no-one is able to talk about these matters. In terms of airing views in public, that's exactly what the forums are for, getting a consensus or discussion about important topics - rather democratic I think. And if the organisations are uncontactable or do not respond, then that's endorsement of the need for such forums. But rest assured I will certainly talk to them to moment I can actually find someone to talk to. I think the idea of the wall being 'antique' is rather value-loaded - the Cornell DR wall is fantastic and massively used - I think Stannage is rather antique too, on that basis, only indeed rather older. My feeling is that just because something is old does not mean that it is redundant. Of course modern installations are extraordinarliy good - and indeed the more, and more modern, the better. But the replacement of the Brixton wall has not improved the facilities, and I feel that the substantial sums spent could have been spent far more effectively in terms of access work with schools etc - although I do understand the restrictions in terms of capital versus recurrent expenditure and the avaliability of grants for specific installations. This is the key question: was it money well spent and does the new wall compensate for the loss of the old? It's a matter of judgement, but in my view, definitely not - and more consultation - including a reference back to DR regarding renovation of the wall - would have helped a great deal to devise a far better solution. The BMC is certainly not the National Trust - and at no stage have I suggested that it should take a line on retention of old facilities, but surely it is concerned with increasing participation and provision of high quality facilities - in the case of Brixton, the balance of the work done there with the money which was spent seems to be at odds with what others in the BMC are trying to achieve. But as usual, all comment welcome.

I appreciate the nostalgia users of the Brixton Recreation Centre have for the old facility but the fact is the old wall has gone; love it or hate it a new wall now sits in its place. No amount of collective hand wringing is going to bring it back this late in the day.

If in fact the new wall has not broadened its accessibility to beginners and regulars alike surely this can be rectified, as is my belief with modern walls, they can be changed.

The only relevant issues regarding Brixton are price and information.

For regular climbers it’s obvious that Climb London’s tariff isn’t competitive and I’m puzzled why Brixton seems to be the most expensive of the lot. Since it’s a community wall, I’m keen to see the whole community get access to it (not all at once though) but currently it’s in danger of being used mainly by middle class Lambeth kiddies learning to climb and a lot of low income families may not bother.

As for getting information, apart from what’s on their website, if you phone the Rec about prices, courses, induction or maybe climbing itself, you can get the information from the front desk but the amount of information all depends on who picks up the phone - just don’t let them transfer you to memberships.

And yes it would be nice for someone from Climb London to join in the forum discussions, to represent themselves on relevant issues. They may not be vocal but I’m sure they’re listening.

In reply to Steven Love:
I have never climbed at Brixton but I have heard from many people extremely disappointed about the new wall (usability, facilities, safety etc). Your comment that modern walls can be changed easily seem optimistic (or possibly even glib?). Given the length of time it has taken to get the new wall built, reluctance of people to admit mistakes, extra costs etc I wonder if this is realistic.

As you say the old Brixton wall has gone. However, the Crystal Palace Wall (where my family and I climb) is still there but under threat of redevelopment which I think involves the same organisations, ie GLL, Climb London and High Sport. I have been told by GLL there are plans to move the climbing wall inside the main building (when it reopen, I think Q1 2009) but these are not yet confirmed. I hope we can avoid the mistakesissues made at Brixton and ensure that any new wall at Crystal Palace continues to meet the needs of the wide, enthusiastic community of existing users as well as extending its accessibility. I also hope any new wall can retain the physical characteristics of the current Bendcrete wall with its apparently infinite route possibilities, rather than putting up a standard "bright colours and bolt-ons" new wall.

I am unclear who will be responsible for any new development, eg Bromley Council, GLL or Climb London, but I hope that they will listen to the exising users and make sure that proposed plans are published and feedback is incorporated. If anyone from those organisations is watching this forum any comments would be welcome.

In reply to Steven Love:
dear steven.
I think GLL is responsible for the price.lamberth council is the one to blame , and i will do so, especially the way they handle the pass over of our leisure center to this GLL.without any regard to the community.
price went up in a place where income is low, bad news, it not only the climbing community who is affected.
brixton climber

In reply to stephen W:
>

dear stephen.

i send a email to bromley council. still no answer.
And i didn't write in French ,promised
brixton climber

In reply to Steven Love:
They is 2 point here
first the new color wall will attract more people to climb,, climb london are well organised and groups session already started, and booked[ i can see to many new climbers not enought instructor in the futur].
As you pointed out it is mainly directed to people who want a go at climbing and then will have to move on to an more complex climbing wall.
This can be rectified.
Im sure that we can make this climbing wall as hard as the new london bridge climbing wall, i asked climb london to provide me with more bold on,so im awaiting for them to create more routes[i want a thousand}
I will be there every wenesday 7pm/9pm, to help/inform.
This wenesday is our AGM, welcoming back our Brixton climbers 2008 ecrin team.
ps' dont forget your cookies
brixton climber

In reply to Steven Love:

Certainly no amount of whining will bring the wall back, but hose who forget the past are sentenced to be victims again. As people have pointed out, Crystal Palace Wall is now also under threat.

The best thing about the old wall is that it was very different to what was available elsewhere in the capital. It was the only place where jamming technique could be properly learned. The cracks were solid and well designed, and gear placement could be practiced. It was the best wall in London to make the transition between the indoor and outdoor climbing experience.

The new wall has not broadened climbing use simply because the old wall was already inclusive. Children and adults used to climb there alike. The new pricing system is a real problem since the sort of people you now seem to see climbing in Brixton (socioeconomic class, ethnic background, etc.) does not represents the population of Lambeth!

Some people say that £7 for annual membership is not much since you could use this membership to climb at six London walls. But why do I, as a Lambeth resident, should have to pay for the right to climb in five walls that I will rarely use? Compare that price to the West Way, where membership is a one off registration fee of only £3. The West Way has more square metres of climbing surface than Climb London six walls together! I'm already a member of WW, the Castle and Mile End, and the one-off memberships for all this venues together is £12 (£3+£4+£5). Now I don't have to pay that amount again. If I were to join Climb London, I would have to pay £7 now, £7 again next summer (if they don't put the price up), and that would be already £14!! When Climb London states on its main page that "six walls one membership, the best value climbing in London" they are being highly misleading ( http://www.climblondon.co.uk/ )!

In reply to dycotiles: aside from brixton wall debate, why do places make you pay a registration fee? It takes all of 20 seconds to enter a new member on a database. Whether you pay £3 or £5 or £7... you are paying something for nothing.
Of course, there is an answer, but doesn't mean you shouldn't ask the question.
f

In reply to fred_stone:

I guess the justificatin is that you get a card (it costs money) and they test you to see whether you know anything about climbing safety ...

In reply to dycotiles:
dear
so why do we have to pay every year? are we supposed to lose it when we get older?
brixton climber

In reply to brixton climber:

That's what I say ..., a one-off fee is fair, an annual membership is profiteering!!!!

In reply to Steven Love:

...thanks for the further insights into patterns of use. You are of course entirely correct about the idea of fruitless hand-wringing - the wall's gone. But this thread has been designed to collect perceptions and facts prior to a well-argued analysis to challenge the process by which the facilities were changed. Unilateral action without due public consultation when public funds and facilities are involved is a serious issue which could affect all of us if it runs out of control - as you say, other facilities are under threat and concerted action may well be necessary.

In reply to timO:

Tim, I agree that public consultation with public funds and facilities is a serious issue. I only wish to throw some light on the fact that the new Brixton wall is not all doom and gloom, despite the problems there is now again a climbable wall back in the heart of Brixton after a very long absence.

In reply to Steven Love:
agreed ... and I hope that a wide range of people are encouraged to use it.
tim

In reply to dycotiles: routesetting costs money, cleaning costs money, turning the heating up costs money, but you expect them to be done as part of the service you're paying for when you visit a wall... Why should printing your name on a card that you are obliged to have any different...?
It's not like the management weren't expecting to have to do you a card when they started up their wall so - why is it accepted for them to pull what is technically known as "a fast one"?
If you could opt not to have a card, then yeah sure you'd expect to pay for it, but seeing as it's their decision to make you have one it's sort of a bit devious.

Enough threadjacking.

I'm going to head down to the brixton wall next day off i have. Looking forward to it.

Cheers
F

In reply
be all at the wall tonight
from 7pm till 9pm.
we shall do new routes[trying to recreate the old wall route move]
then the AGM[ election time]
for a £10 you get a pizza/salade/and a drink.
see you then
brixton climber