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In what is clearly a polemic news item, which has promoted discussion on the 8a.nu forum, the site owners have highlighted what they consider to be a problem within high level sport climbing circles. This statement has been met with widespread criticism on the 8a.nu site, but their initial posting, although strongly worded, has sprung from more official sources...
Should BMI regulations be introduced to more climbing competitions, or should the BMC be looking in to other ways to promote healthy participation in competition climbing?
Read More: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=06&year=2008#n44726
Should BMI regulations be introduced to more climbing competitions, or should the BMC be looking in to other ways to promote healthy participation in competition climbing?
Read More: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=06&year=2008#n44726
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
its interesting they don't ban obese climbers lol.
its interesting they don't ban obese climbers lol.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
It's very difficult to see how this (BMI regulations) could work as BMI is a load of toss.
It's very difficult to see how this (BMI regulations) could work as BMI is a load of toss.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
you'd never find a 300lb-er on the verge of a heart attack in a bouldering competition.
you may find a 100lb-er (also on the verge of a heart attack) in a bouldering competition
you'd never find a 300lb-er on the verge of a heart attack in a bouldering competition.
you may find a 100lb-er (also on the verge of a heart attack) in a bouldering competition
In reply to seagull:
Yep they should find a way to take into account bone structure and all the other factors which affect build.
Yep they should find a way to take into account bone structure and all the other factors which affect build.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Any more polemic than
"Jun 8: Direquiem 5.14a R: Trotter Stays and McClure
by Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com
[...] This is a lot more honest than giving pre-practiced routes an inflated, hypothetical, headline-grabbing E grade, although Sonnie says, "I don't know what this translates to in the E grade system, but I'll let others figure it out. "
However flawed applying E-grades to headpoints is, it is our current system. Top rope practice before the lead can be traced back to the early history of climbing and is well established, especially on bolt-free gritstone and mountain routes. However, several of the UK's top climbers are now of the opinion that E grades should only be applied to onsight and ground up ascents. This will hopefully stop the practice of over-grading to embellish a climbers reputation which has been common the last 20 years or so."
Back on topic, and from a position of ignorance on the very fringes of the sport, I'd offer my long held view that many people who climb definitely have borderline eating disorders due to their obsession with strengh/weight ratio, etc..
> In what is clearly a polemic news item,
Any more polemic than
"Jun 8: Direquiem 5.14a R: Trotter Stays and McClure
by Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com
[...] This is a lot more honest than giving pre-practiced routes an inflated, hypothetical, headline-grabbing E grade, although Sonnie says, "I don't know what this translates to in the E grade system, but I'll let others figure it out. "
However flawed applying E-grades to headpoints is, it is our current system. Top rope practice before the lead can be traced back to the early history of climbing and is well established, especially on bolt-free gritstone and mountain routes. However, several of the UK's top climbers are now of the opinion that E grades should only be applied to onsight and ground up ascents. This will hopefully stop the practice of over-grading to embellish a climbers reputation which has been common the last 20 years or so."
Back on topic, and from a position of ignorance on the very fringes of the sport, I'd offer my long held view that many people who climb definitely have borderline eating disorders due to their obsession with strengh/weight ratio, etc..
In reply to seagull:
Sounds like they just want to make sure no one who is unhealthy thin takes part in the competitions.
I didnt read it as they ban them from entering but that they need to see a Doctor first if they are realy thin, but i could be wrong.
Sounds like they just want to make sure no one who is unhealthy thin takes part in the competitions.
I didnt read it as they ban them from entering but that they need to see a Doctor first if they are realy thin, but i could be wrong.
In reply to Mokkel:
Yeah I applaud the sentiment but using BMI as a basis of working out who has or doesn't have an eating disorder is total boll***s.
Yeah I applaud the sentiment but using BMI as a basis of working out who has or doesn't have an eating disorder is total boll***s.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Its official then being light is cheating!
In reply to seagull:
No matter how silly the BMI is, they got to have some guide line for it, would be hard to avoid trouble if they let it be down to a Individual assesment of each climber. I know thats what would make sence but it just leaves so many things open to arguments.
No matter how silly the BMI is, they got to have some guide line for it, would be hard to avoid trouble if they let it be down to a Individual assesment of each climber. I know thats what would make sence but it just leaves so many things open to arguments.
In reply to Mokkel:
I get what you're saying but "No matter how silly"? That doesn't make sense. BMI doesn't even work for calculating whether someone is over/under weight. The number of people who come out as being either obese or majorly underweight when they blatantly aren't is a joke.
It certainly doesn't work for predicting whether or not someone has an eating disorder. You may as well use palm reading or look at some seaweed.
I get what you're saying but "No matter how silly"? That doesn't make sense. BMI doesn't even work for calculating whether someone is over/under weight. The number of people who come out as being either obese or majorly underweight when they blatantly aren't is a joke.
It certainly doesn't work for predicting whether or not someone has an eating disorder. You may as well use palm reading or look at some seaweed.
In reply to seagull:
I agree with all that. It's pretty ridiculous overall that you can be punished for hard training and work (and maybe not eating).
I agree with all that. It's pretty ridiculous overall that you can be punished for hard training and work (and maybe not eating).
In reply to seagull:
they just need a figure to use as the trigger, and a silly one is better than none, when it comes to be shown as doing somthing about a possible problem. When the BMI is to low, they have to see a Doctor to find out if they are healthy or not.
For predicting if a person have an eating disorder i agree that seaweed would be as usefull as BMI, but i dont think thats why they are doing it.
they just need a figure to use as the trigger, and a silly one is better than none, when it comes to be shown as doing somthing about a possible problem. When the BMI is to low, they have to see a Doctor to find out if they are healthy or not.
For predicting if a person have an eating disorder i agree that seaweed would be as usefull as BMI, but i dont think thats why they are doing it.
In reply to seagull:
BMI does work better for ther lower end of the weight spectrum than the upper (as not taking into acount muscle weight etc). At lower end is more accurate and hence better at looking at people at risk of eating disorders.
The issue is not just about eating disorders but also about what low BMI does to the body - increasing risk of osteoporsis and stress fractures.
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=spor...
Also in growing climbers there is the issue of available energy to grow in height etc.
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=2489
BMI does work better for ther lower end of the weight spectrum than the upper (as not taking into acount muscle weight etc). At lower end is more accurate and hence better at looking at people at risk of eating disorders.
The issue is not just about eating disorders but also about what low BMI does to the body - increasing risk of osteoporsis and stress fractures.
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=spor...
Also in growing climbers there is the issue of available energy to grow in height etc.
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=2489
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Surely if a person is anorexic they won't be any good anyway as they won't have the energy?
Has there really been a lot of heart attacks in competitions? and what about people who don't compete at all... they're just as likely to be thin aren't they?
And yes, BMI is a totally pointless measure in this application (and most others) especially as Muscle weighs more than fat therefore an "anorexic climber" is unlikely to show-up as being anorexic on BMI charts
Surely if a person is anorexic they won't be any good anyway as they won't have the energy?
Has there really been a lot of heart attacks in competitions? and what about people who don't compete at all... they're just as likely to be thin aren't they?
And yes, BMI is a totally pointless measure in this application (and most others) especially as Muscle weighs more than fat therefore an "anorexic climber" is unlikely to show-up as being anorexic on BMI charts
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: I remember this issue being around a bit in the early-mid 90s. Maybe people saying that Malc Smith's famous broccoli diet wasn't healthy, and that some keen houses of climbers in Sheffield used to have dieting competitions. I remember others saying that people used dance drugs as a way of loosing loads of weight as well.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: I would say I'm pretty skinny (weighing just over 60kg...slightly more muscular than Dave Graham I'd say) but i eat like a savage when i'm not climbing. I have a high metabolism and would hate to be grouped with these borderline anorexic types (if i wanted to enter a bouldering competition)just because i appear to not enjoy eating food.
I do eat very little whilst climbing but that's because i only eat when i'm hungry...isn't that the way it should be?
I think this issue could get out of hand if left unchecked...especially those who enjoy competing.
I do eat very little whilst climbing but that's because i only eat when i'm hungry...isn't that the way it should be?
I think this issue could get out of hand if left unchecked...especially those who enjoy competing.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: I'm no expert but I would suspect that this discrimination on weight may well be an infringement of human rights and that if someone were to challenge it they would have a job to defend themselves.
I also wonder which climber they had in mind when they brought in this regulation. Who do they think is too thin?
I also wonder which climber they had in mind when they brought in this regulation. Who do they think is too thin?
Although it's a good idea to discourage anorexia, I feel this may be a bit too far. I am 6' 2, and I have always had a ridiculously high metabolism and have always eaten what most people consider to be far too much. But until last summer I weighed 9 Stone.....just because people are thinner, possibly too skinny, doesn't necessarily mean that they are trying to be that way. It has taken me years to put on any weight at all.
What happens if people are genetically very lightweight?? are they also banned.
What happens if people are genetically very lightweight?? are they also banned.
In reply to Brunel Sport Monkey:
If they are healthy they Doctor will say so and there shouldnt be any problems.
If they are healthy they Doctor will say so and there shouldnt be any problems.
In reply to Mokkel: The way I read it, if they are less than 90% of BMI of 17 then they get no recourse to a doctor.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
It would be extremely difficult to use BMI as a fair method of excluding athletes on the basis of preserving their own safety. As rightly pointed out above there are issues regarding differences in body shape and composition which render BMI, at best, an arbitrary measurement. It would still be possible for climbers with BMI's within healthy ranges to have dangerously low body fat percentages, just as it would be possible for some individuals to have lower than healthy BMI's but be perfectly healthy.
I've been surprised that eating disorders haven't been a greater problem in climbing because they are widespread in other body weight bearing sports such as cycling, dancing and gymnastics. Any form of competition will provoke extreme behaviour in people searching for a competitive edge.
What people choose to do outside cannot be monitored, the BMC aren't going to rush out to a climbers house to make sure they have a normal BMI after a significant FA or repeat. On the 8a website people can simply lie about their weight and height. Competitions would be much easier to control. I think that all competitors should be medically examined to ensure they are not unhealthy immediately before competitions. Very low body fat percentages in women will stop menstruation and can cause osteoporosis. In the world cup series this could be monitored in order to make sure that women were not consistently putting themselves at risk. Men could have a lower limit of body fat percentage that they must be above to compete, the safe limit would depend on the method used to obtain the body fat percentage. Adolescents could have their body fat percentages measured to ensure their safety during their critical period of growth.
I think that the BMI could promote a healthy awareness of perceived performance advantages and health risks. Hopefully this awareness would stop the majority of people from developing some form of eating disorder, however, the responsibility for ensuring the safety of children and adolescents must lie with the parents and their coaches.
It would be extremely difficult to use BMI as a fair method of excluding athletes on the basis of preserving their own safety. As rightly pointed out above there are issues regarding differences in body shape and composition which render BMI, at best, an arbitrary measurement. It would still be possible for climbers with BMI's within healthy ranges to have dangerously low body fat percentages, just as it would be possible for some individuals to have lower than healthy BMI's but be perfectly healthy.
I've been surprised that eating disorders haven't been a greater problem in climbing because they are widespread in other body weight bearing sports such as cycling, dancing and gymnastics. Any form of competition will provoke extreme behaviour in people searching for a competitive edge.
What people choose to do outside cannot be monitored, the BMC aren't going to rush out to a climbers house to make sure they have a normal BMI after a significant FA or repeat. On the 8a website people can simply lie about their weight and height. Competitions would be much easier to control. I think that all competitors should be medically examined to ensure they are not unhealthy immediately before competitions. Very low body fat percentages in women will stop menstruation and can cause osteoporosis. In the world cup series this could be monitored in order to make sure that women were not consistently putting themselves at risk. Men could have a lower limit of body fat percentage that they must be above to compete, the safe limit would depend on the method used to obtain the body fat percentage. Adolescents could have their body fat percentages measured to ensure their safety during their critical period of growth.
I think that the BMI could promote a healthy awareness of perceived performance advantages and health risks. Hopefully this awareness would stop the majority of people from developing some form of eating disorder, however, the responsibility for ensuring the safety of children and adolescents must lie with the parents and their coaches.
In reply to Brunel Sport Monkey:
Absolutely. And tall people. I hate those "just reach up for the hold" mutha******s. And people who are strong with out trying, they should have bricks put in their pockets.
Yours,
Toby"fatboyshort"A.
> What happens if people are genetically very lightweight?? are they also banned.
Absolutely. And tall people. I hate those "just reach up for the hold" mutha******s. And people who are strong with out trying, they should have bricks put in their pockets.
Yours,
Toby"fatboyshort"A.
not sure why there are so many posters that seem to be upset about the idea of BMI as a guide.
BMI is pretty good for the lower weight range
if you claim to have low body fat percentage - then that will actually mean you are heavier (fat is lighter)
if you have any fat, you are unlikely to have a low BMI
anyone who has a BMI less than 17 is at an unhealthy weight despite many of these "pro-ana' websites.
But, anyone who has a low BMI is unlikely to be a particularly effective climber.
Side effects of low BMI:
Fatigue
Muscle wasting/weakness
Heart Failure
Poor concentration
Depression
BMI is pretty good for the lower weight range
if you claim to have low body fat percentage - then that will actually mean you are heavier (fat is lighter)
if you have any fat, you are unlikely to have a low BMI
anyone who has a BMI less than 17 is at an unhealthy weight despite many of these "pro-ana' websites.
But, anyone who has a low BMI is unlikely to be a particularly effective climber.
Side effects of low BMI:
Fatigue
Muscle wasting/weakness
Heart Failure
Poor concentration
Depression
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Lets see, we take a measurement designed to make a broad brush categorisation of **sedentary** **populations**, and apply it to athletic individuals.
BMI is pretty much utter garbage at the best of times, in this situation more so.
I can understand that heavily muscled individuals are likely to weight more, but there's so much variation in people's shape that applying BMI arbitrarily to individuals is utterly, utterly, stupidly wrong.
Its a measure which has the advantage of simplicity, i.e. even the most dozy fool on the planet can understand it. Unfortunately it would appear that it is a measure being implemented by the dozy fools with no consideration for how healthy people actually are.
My ex's brother (powerlifter, bouncer, judo instructor) was barred from joining the police for five years as his BMI was huge and they said that their charts said he was obese, so he couldn't join. FIVE years of arguments, three independent doctors, vast amounts of correspondence becasuse those who cannot think have invented something that their rather under-active brains can understand.
It makes about as much sense as vetting marathon runners by BMI. Or Sumo wrestlers (in the opposite direction).
Idiotic.
/rant over.
Sorry. JH
Lets see, we take a measurement designed to make a broad brush categorisation of **sedentary** **populations**, and apply it to athletic individuals.
BMI is pretty much utter garbage at the best of times, in this situation more so.
I can understand that heavily muscled individuals are likely to weight more, but there's so much variation in people's shape that applying BMI arbitrarily to individuals is utterly, utterly, stupidly wrong.
Its a measure which has the advantage of simplicity, i.e. even the most dozy fool on the planet can understand it. Unfortunately it would appear that it is a measure being implemented by the dozy fools with no consideration for how healthy people actually are.
My ex's brother (powerlifter, bouncer, judo instructor) was barred from joining the police for five years as his BMI was huge and they said that their charts said he was obese, so he couldn't join. FIVE years of arguments, three independent doctors, vast amounts of correspondence becasuse those who cannot think have invented something that their rather under-active brains can understand.
It makes about as much sense as vetting marathon runners by BMI. Or Sumo wrestlers (in the opposite direction).
Idiotic.
/rant over.
Sorry. JH
In reply to sarah1975:
I agree see my post above along with article re low weight and clinical effects
I agree see my post above along with article re low weight and clinical effects
In reply to james oswald:
Smoking is well recognized as an appetite suppressor. Is there much evidence that climbers use smoking to maintain low body weight and if so should smokers be banned from competition as the long term damage to health from smoking is extremely well documented?
Smoking is well recognized as an appetite suppressor. Is there much evidence that climbers use smoking to maintain low body weight and if so should smokers be banned from competition as the long term damage to health from smoking is extremely well documented?
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Tour de France riders are some of the "skinniest" humans on the planet yet the average BMI for a Pro Tour rider is about 21.
17 is very very low.
The Ent
Tour de France riders are some of the "skinniest" humans on the planet yet the average BMI for a Pro Tour rider is about 21.
17 is very very low.
The Ent
In reply to TobyA:
I agree light climbers should have to be weighted down to balance things out however we may need some sort of sliding scale as a quick experiment showed that one of my climbing partners was unable to stand never mind climb when weighted up to just under my body weight. (8 stone hanging off her harness was quite funny though)
I agree light climbers should have to be weighted down to balance things out however we may need some sort of sliding scale as a quick experiment showed that one of my climbing partners was unable to stand never mind climb when weighted up to just under my body weight. (8 stone hanging off her harness was quite funny though)
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Why don't they just do it on body fat %.
Can't you measure that quickly and effectively these days.
Why don't they just do it on body fat %.
Can't you measure that quickly and effectively these days.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Oh hang on.... I get it... this is a troll (on 8a's part).
Thanks for clearing that one up. I never really understood what a troll was.
It's not April fools day either!
That word - anorexic - gets thrown around in very dubious ways.
Oh hang on.... I get it... this is a troll (on 8a's part).
Thanks for clearing that one up. I never really understood what a troll was.
It's not April fools day either!
That word - anorexic - gets thrown around in very dubious ways.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
the international classification of diseases(icd.10) includes a b.m.i.of below 17.5 as one of its diagnostic guidelines for anorexia nervosa.
this would be someone of six foot and a weight of nine stone.
as to people claiming to have high metabolism.you are more likely to have a higher metabolism if you are heavier as it requires more energy to move a heavier weight.
in general most people have a very similar metabolic rate.people use it as an excuse to justify there weight.
the international classification of diseases(icd.10) includes a b.m.i.of below 17.5 as one of its diagnostic guidelines for anorexia nervosa.
this would be someone of six foot and a weight of nine stone.
as to people claiming to have high metabolism.you are more likely to have a higher metabolism if you are heavier as it requires more energy to move a heavier weight.
in general most people have a very similar metabolic rate.people use it as an excuse to justify there weight.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: BMI is the wrong brush to use, however in my experience, some of the females operating in the higher grades have to some extent hidden their eating issues behind their training regime.
Heh, I like the way quite a few people are just posting their two pence without reference to the better-informed posts in the thread... Just to reiterate, BMI is actually quite useful in the lower ranges and indeed is in the ICD-10 criteria for anorexia nervosa (i.e. if your BMI > 17.5 you pretty much can't have anorexia nervosa - which doesn't mean you don't have a problem, mind...) Those of you who think of yourselves as very skinny and are worried about being classified as borderline anorexic should work out your BMI - you may well be surprised.
However, I agree that BMI alone shouldn't be used to exclude people from climbing competitions... BMI can be an effective screening tool for anorexia nervosa (and only anorexia nervosa, as bulimia nervosa doesn't have BMI as a diagnostic criterion), but the diagnosis also requires a specific pattern of deliberate weight loss, a "dread of fatness", and endocrine abnormalities (e.g. women not getting periods, men being uninterested in sex).
For the vast majority, I really don't think the diagnosis will be that much in doubt. Those who are genuinely anorexic are more fixated on weight loss in and of itself than anything else, and therefore, I speculate, are going to be either unwilling or unable to put on enough muscle to climb to a high level. Meanwhile, climbers who train to an extreme and lose a lot of weight are doing so with climbing achievement as the primary goal, and are likely to have enough muscle to push their BMI over 17.5. Perhaps there is, however, a small overlap between these two groups... Any individual cases people can attest to? There may be a few people who train and diet to such an extreme that their BMI is less than 17.5 and they do develop endocrine abnormalities (although, as I say, I think these people are unlikely to be climbing at a high level), but they still wouldn't be diagnosed as having anorexia nervosa unless the weight loss rather than the climbing was their primary goal. That doesn't mean that their pattern of behaviour isn't unhealthy, mind, or that no-one should advise them to rethink their strategy... Osteoporotic bones don't make for a long and happy climbing career.
If it's this latter group that we're really talking about, to what extent should unhealthy patterns of training be regulated and those who practise them excluded from competitions? Arguably, people have the right to abuse their bodies however the hell they like, as long as it doesn't make the competition unfair. It could also, of course, be argued that allowing such folks to climb in competitions promotes this unhealthy image to younger climbers, and climbing authorities do have a responsibility from that point of view.
Hmm. I ended up getting much more into that debate with myself than intended - apologies for the spiel!
Pete.
However, I agree that BMI alone shouldn't be used to exclude people from climbing competitions... BMI can be an effective screening tool for anorexia nervosa (and only anorexia nervosa, as bulimia nervosa doesn't have BMI as a diagnostic criterion), but the diagnosis also requires a specific pattern of deliberate weight loss, a "dread of fatness", and endocrine abnormalities (e.g. women not getting periods, men being uninterested in sex).
For the vast majority, I really don't think the diagnosis will be that much in doubt. Those who are genuinely anorexic are more fixated on weight loss in and of itself than anything else, and therefore, I speculate, are going to be either unwilling or unable to put on enough muscle to climb to a high level. Meanwhile, climbers who train to an extreme and lose a lot of weight are doing so with climbing achievement as the primary goal, and are likely to have enough muscle to push their BMI over 17.5. Perhaps there is, however, a small overlap between these two groups... Any individual cases people can attest to? There may be a few people who train and diet to such an extreme that their BMI is less than 17.5 and they do develop endocrine abnormalities (although, as I say, I think these people are unlikely to be climbing at a high level), but they still wouldn't be diagnosed as having anorexia nervosa unless the weight loss rather than the climbing was their primary goal. That doesn't mean that their pattern of behaviour isn't unhealthy, mind, or that no-one should advise them to rethink their strategy... Osteoporotic bones don't make for a long and happy climbing career.
If it's this latter group that we're really talking about, to what extent should unhealthy patterns of training be regulated and those who practise them excluded from competitions? Arguably, people have the right to abuse their bodies however the hell they like, as long as it doesn't make the competition unfair. It could also, of course, be argued that allowing such folks to climb in competitions promotes this unhealthy image to younger climbers, and climbing authorities do have a responsibility from that point of view.
Hmm. I ended up getting much more into that debate with myself than intended - apologies for the spiel!
Pete.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
and unrelatedly, both UKC and 8a.nu gleefully announce a spike in page views (and ad revenue)...
> In what is clearly a polemic news item, which has promoted discussion on the 8a.nu forum, the site owners have highlighted what they consider to be a problem within high level sport climbing circles. This statement has been met with widespread criticism on the 8a.nu site, but their initial posting, although strongly worded, has sprung from more official sources...
>
> Should BMI regulations be introduced to more climbing competitions, or should the BMC be looking in to other ways to promote healthy participation in competition climbing?
>
> Read More: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=06&year=2008#n44726
>
> Should BMI regulations be introduced to more climbing competitions, or should the BMC be looking in to other ways to promote healthy participation in competition climbing?
>
> Read More: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=06&year=2008#n44726
and unrelatedly, both UKC and 8a.nu gleefully announce a spike in page views (and ad revenue)...
In reply to PeteH:
As someone with close experience of dealing with anorexia for several years,
first of all I'd like to say what a pernicious, persistent dreadful illness this is. It ruins lives and kills people.
secondly its very deceptive , both in presentation and behaviour
thirdly low BMI is critical in accelerating its development, many people with low BMI's are circling round the plughole of anorexia and if BMI falls further they will disappear down it .. and its a dreadful uphill slog to get out that abyss.
Avoid at all costs ...
As someone with close experience of dealing with anorexia for several years,
first of all I'd like to say what a pernicious, persistent dreadful illness this is. It ruins lives and kills people.
secondly its very deceptive , both in presentation and behaviour
thirdly low BMI is critical in accelerating its development, many people with low BMI's are circling round the plughole of anorexia and if BMI falls further they will disappear down it .. and its a dreadful uphill slog to get out that abyss.
Avoid at all costs ...
In reply to robotninja:
News Shock - websites, newspapers and magazines report on interesting stories (like the Austrian BMI regulations) to develop a readership. They then sell advertising to make money.
Erm? I'm sorry Robotninja, but you haven't uncovered a major conspiracy here!
Jack
> (In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC)
> and unrelatedly, both UKC and 8a.nu gleefully announce a spike in page views (and ad revenue)...
News Shock - websites, newspapers and magazines report on interesting stories (like the Austrian BMI regulations) to develop a readership. They then sell advertising to make money.
Erm? I'm sorry Robotninja, but you haven't uncovered a major conspiracy here!
Jack
In reply to ClimberEd:
I beleve you have just answered your own question.....
> (In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC)
>
> Why don't they just do it on body fat %.
>
> Can't you measure that quickly and effectively these days.
>
> Why don't they just do it on body fat %.
>
> Can't you measure that quickly and effectively these days.
I beleve you have just answered your own question.....
In reply to PeteH:
"Any individual cases people can attest to?"
I've known a couple of climbers who had BMI <17.5 and were simply quite tall with a very slim frame. Perfectly heathly and were eating well.
The Lady Blue (the other half) - also a climber - has a BMI of only just over 17.5 and also eats healthily - in fact she eats **heavily**, coz when I make food I tend to cook for four and give us half each! **grins**.
She is quite tall (5'8"), but again, quite a small frame.
I could probably think of half a dozen others who would be candidates, but I don't know the requisite details.
BMI is way too unscientific to be used as a screening aid.
At the end of the day why the hell should we care? Does it really really matter what someone's weight is? OK, I know that weight and BMI are the current fads, but why care about a healthy person with a BMI of 17 but not someone with a BMI of 20-25 who drinks heavily, takes loads of drugs, and eats every day at McDonalds?
Why do we, outside observers, have the right to exclude someone for what they are or are not doing to **their own** body? Oh yes, you answered that..
"promotes this unhealthy image to younger climbers"
For the sake of the children, in other words. The excuse for any overbearing nanny society to restrict the freedom of its individuals.
By the same token Sumo wresting as I mentioned above should be banned. I would imagine half the rugby props would be classed as overweight/obese, so lets ban Rugby too. Its totally unhealthy for someone to try and run a marathon (it does NOT do your body much good), so lets ban that. Weightlifters? All obese - that's another sport gone. Football? Well, look at all those nasty tackles - might cause someone injury - kids might see it and want to play football, and then fall over. For the sake of the children lets ban football.
The lunatics are running the asylum.
One could also make the valid point that IF anyone does have anorexia then excluding them from society in any manner (e.g. preventing them from competing in a sport they love) is really going to help them is it?
Sheesh.
/rant 2 over. Sorry. Again. JH
"Any individual cases people can attest to?"
I've known a couple of climbers who had BMI <17.5 and were simply quite tall with a very slim frame. Perfectly heathly and were eating well.
The Lady Blue (the other half) - also a climber - has a BMI of only just over 17.5 and also eats healthily - in fact she eats **heavily**, coz when I make food I tend to cook for four and give us half each! **grins**.
She is quite tall (5'8"), but again, quite a small frame.
I could probably think of half a dozen others who would be candidates, but I don't know the requisite details.
BMI is way too unscientific to be used as a screening aid.
At the end of the day why the hell should we care? Does it really really matter what someone's weight is? OK, I know that weight and BMI are the current fads, but why care about a healthy person with a BMI of 17 but not someone with a BMI of 20-25 who drinks heavily, takes loads of drugs, and eats every day at McDonalds?
Why do we, outside observers, have the right to exclude someone for what they are or are not doing to **their own** body? Oh yes, you answered that..
"promotes this unhealthy image to younger climbers"
For the sake of the children, in other words. The excuse for any overbearing nanny society to restrict the freedom of its individuals.
By the same token Sumo wresting as I mentioned above should be banned. I would imagine half the rugby props would be classed as overweight/obese, so lets ban Rugby too. Its totally unhealthy for someone to try and run a marathon (it does NOT do your body much good), so lets ban that. Weightlifters? All obese - that's another sport gone. Football? Well, look at all those nasty tackles - might cause someone injury - kids might see it and want to play football, and then fall over. For the sake of the children lets ban football.
The lunatics are running the asylum.
One could also make the valid point that IF anyone does have anorexia then excluding them from society in any manner (e.g. preventing them from competing in a sport they love) is really going to help them is it?
Sheesh.
/rant 2 over. Sorry. Again. JH
In reply to John_Hat:
Thanks John, interesting to hear of some actual cases there. Just for the record I was not espousing the view that anorexics should be banned for the sake of the children... I was merely saying that that was one argument that might be used. As you point out, such arguments can be taken to extremes; then again, there are less ridiculous examples of sports which are banned based on this argument, and I'd maintain that the argument isn't entirely invalid, but needs extremely careful application. Restriction of the freedom of individuals is, of course, a general principle which is required in order to maintain the freedom of other individuals.
Anyway, getting a bit off-topic there.
As for use of BMI as a screening tool, I'd argue that how scientific/unscientific it is very much depends on how it's used. As I say, it is one of the internationally-recognised criteria for diagnosing anorexia nervosa, so can't be entirely disregarded in a debate such as this unless you want to go the whole way and redefine the disease. BMI _does_ correlate with the risk of physiologically significant changes such as amenorrhoea which helps to define anorexia nervosa as currently recognised. Which doesn't, of course, mean that everyone with a BMI < 17 has such changes, which is why it's a screening tool rather than a diagnostic standard.
Also, in reply to JimR, sorry to hear you've had personal experience of this. You're also absolutely right to point out that many people with low BMIs are at risk of developing anorexia nervosa; however, it's important to emphasise that it's the underlying abnormal thinking/behaviour in such people which leads to the low BMIs and on to anorexia nervosa as rigidly defined by ICD-10, rather than the low BMI accelerating the disease process or increasing the risk of the disease per se.
Cheers,
Pete.
Thanks John, interesting to hear of some actual cases there. Just for the record I was not espousing the view that anorexics should be banned for the sake of the children... I was merely saying that that was one argument that might be used. As you point out, such arguments can be taken to extremes; then again, there are less ridiculous examples of sports which are banned based on this argument, and I'd maintain that the argument isn't entirely invalid, but needs extremely careful application. Restriction of the freedom of individuals is, of course, a general principle which is required in order to maintain the freedom of other individuals.
Anyway, getting a bit off-topic there.
As for use of BMI as a screening tool, I'd argue that how scientific/unscientific it is very much depends on how it's used. As I say, it is one of the internationally-recognised criteria for diagnosing anorexia nervosa, so can't be entirely disregarded in a debate such as this unless you want to go the whole way and redefine the disease. BMI _does_ correlate with the risk of physiologically significant changes such as amenorrhoea which helps to define anorexia nervosa as currently recognised. Which doesn't, of course, mean that everyone with a BMI < 17 has such changes, which is why it's a screening tool rather than a diagnostic standard.
Also, in reply to JimR, sorry to hear you've had personal experience of this. You're also absolutely right to point out that many people with low BMIs are at risk of developing anorexia nervosa; however, it's important to emphasise that it's the underlying abnormal thinking/behaviour in such people which leads to the low BMIs and on to anorexia nervosa as rigidly defined by ICD-10, rather than the low BMI accelerating the disease process or increasing the risk of the disease per se.
Cheers,
Pete.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: surely if they're healthy enough to climb, they are healthy enough?
In reply to Franco Cookson:
It seems to me that 8a.nu is run by morons.
It seems to me that 8a.nu is run by morons.
In reply to Dave Flanagan:
as said in my post above a b.m.i. of 17.5 is just one of the guidelines,there are 4 more which can include weight loss through the avoidance of fatty foods,self induced vomiting,purging,use of appetite supressants.
body image distortion,dread of fatness
endocrine disorder which can leadto amenorrhoea in females
if on set is preubertal then sequence of pubertal events are delayed
anorexia nervosa is a psychiatric condition where as anorexia is medical condition.
as said in my post above a b.m.i. of 17.5 is just one of the guidelines,there are 4 more which can include weight loss through the avoidance of fatty foods,self induced vomiting,purging,use of appetite supressants.
body image distortion,dread of fatness
endocrine disorder which can leadto amenorrhoea in females
if on set is preubertal then sequence of pubertal events are delayed
anorexia nervosa is a psychiatric condition where as anorexia is medical condition.
In reply to PeteH:
Not sure if that statement is absolutely accurate. There is evidence to show that a low and decreasing BMI leads to canges and increases in abnormal thinking thus accelerating the disease process. In fact a vital part of treatment is to increase BMI which decreases the abnormal thinking.
> (In reply to John_Hat)
>
> Anyway, getting a bit off-topic there.
>
>
> Also, in reply to JimR, sorry to hear you've had personal experience of this. You're also absolutely right to point out that many people with low BMIs are at risk of developing anorexia nervosa; however, it's important to emphasise that it's the underlying abnormal thinking/behaviour in such people which leads to the low BMIs and on to anorexia nervosa as rigidly defined by ICD-10, rather than the low BMI accelerating the disease process or increasing the risk of the disease per se.
>
> Cheers,
> Pete.
>
> Anyway, getting a bit off-topic there.
>
>
> Also, in reply to JimR, sorry to hear you've had personal experience of this. You're also absolutely right to point out that many people with low BMIs are at risk of developing anorexia nervosa; however, it's important to emphasise that it's the underlying abnormal thinking/behaviour in such people which leads to the low BMIs and on to anorexia nervosa as rigidly defined by ICD-10, rather than the low BMI accelerating the disease process or increasing the risk of the disease per se.
>
> Cheers,
> Pete.
Not sure if that statement is absolutely accurate. There is evidence to show that a low and decreasing BMI leads to canges and increases in abnormal thinking thus accelerating the disease process. In fact a vital part of treatment is to increase BMI which decreases the abnormal thinking.
In reply to steve webster:
To be precise anorexia is a symptom. Meaning a loss of appetite. As has been said already the bmi is only part of diagnostic criteria. Relying surely on a bmi is foolish and you would not diagnose any eating disorder without a history of abnormalities of thinking about food. Amongst other symptoms...
To be precise anorexia is a symptom. Meaning a loss of appetite. As has been said already the bmi is only part of diagnostic criteria. Relying surely on a bmi is foolish and you would not diagnose any eating disorder without a history of abnormalities of thinking about food. Amongst other symptoms...
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
There's a big difference between having a low BMI and having a diagnosed eating disorder. Obviously, one is easier to confirm than the other for banning purposes. Unless, of course, half the site puts on a few pounds in their profile information...
There's a big difference between having a low BMI and having a diagnosed eating disorder. Obviously, one is easier to confirm than the other for banning purposes. Unless, of course, half the site puts on a few pounds in their profile information...
Think everyone agrees with a sentiment raised earlier that climbing authorities have a responsibility to young climbers over this issue, as over-exercise and strict unhealthy eating regimes can have a devastating affect on a young body, which may never recover.
Doesn't the BMC already publish a handbook with guidelines on how to look after young climbers?
Maybe if young climbers not eating right is an issue the next time the BMC update this handbook they could include a nutritionist/doctor advised section on healthy eating, how to "keep your strength" up for those pumped moves or long mountain days?
I'm sure there would be plenty of professional climbers out there who would be keen to put a bit in about how important it is to eat enough and eat healthily, kids tend to respond well to advice from people they look up to.
At the end of the day I agree it’s up to parents to monitor their children, and there’s no need to be all nanny-state about it, but with sports men and women being so influential to children these days it can only help?
Doesn't the BMC already publish a handbook with guidelines on how to look after young climbers?
Maybe if young climbers not eating right is an issue the next time the BMC update this handbook they could include a nutritionist/doctor advised section on healthy eating, how to "keep your strength" up for those pumped moves or long mountain days?
I'm sure there would be plenty of professional climbers out there who would be keen to put a bit in about how important it is to eat enough and eat healthily, kids tend to respond well to advice from people they look up to.
At the end of the day I agree it’s up to parents to monitor their children, and there’s no need to be all nanny-state about it, but with sports men and women being so influential to children these days it can only help?
In reply to JimR:
Apologies in that case, I'd not heard that before, but then psychiatry isn't my specialty. You don't happen to have any references handy do you? I'd be interested to see how they think that works.
Cheers,
Pete.
> There is evidence to show that a low and decreasing BMI leads to canges and increases in abnormal thinking thus accelerating the disease process. In fact a vital part of treatment is to increase BMI which decreases the abnormal thinking.
Apologies in that case, I'd not heard that before, but then psychiatry isn't my specialty. You don't happen to have any references handy do you? I'd be interested to see how they think that works.
Cheers,
Pete.
In reply to PeteH:
try googling bob the psychiatric nurse.there is a couple of links to eating disorder sites on it.
try googling bob the psychiatric nurse.there is a couple of links to eating disorder sites on it.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
I havent read all the posts but if BMI was introduced I couldnt compete and I definately dont have an eating disorder.
I havent read all the posts but if BMI was introduced I couldnt compete and I definately dont have an eating disorder.
In reply to John_Hat: stupid populist idea.
bmi is just for sedentary couch potatoes not for world-class athletes. on the other end of the scale don't most rugny players count as obese based on their BMI?
for the record, i'm 6ft1 and struggle to keep my weight above 9.5stones no matter how much chocolate i eat. i can also out-walk or run all my climbing partners...
bmi is just for sedentary couch potatoes not for world-class athletes. on the other end of the scale don't most rugny players count as obese based on their BMI?
for the record, i'm 6ft1 and struggle to keep my weight above 9.5stones no matter how much chocolate i eat. i can also out-walk or run all my climbing partners...
In reply to PeteH:
This is the case - and studies on normal healthy men with no history of psychiatric disease, who were put on a very low calorie diet for a lengthy period, showed them to become obsessed with food and weight...... in anorexia nervosa the abnormal thought processes tend to come first, but then weight loss perpetuates them.
Sorry can't quote the references.
What is your specialty?
> (In reply to JimR)
> [...]
>
> Apologies in that case, I'd not heard that before, but then psychiatry isn't my specialty. You don't happen to have any references handy do you? I'd be interested to see how they think that works.
> [...]
>
> Apologies in that case, I'd not heard that before, but then psychiatry isn't my specialty. You don't happen to have any references handy do you? I'd be interested to see how they think that works.
This is the case - and studies on normal healthy men with no history of psychiatric disease, who were put on a very low calorie diet for a lengthy period, showed them to become obsessed with food and weight...... in anorexia nervosa the abnormal thought processes tend to come first, but then weight loss perpetuates them.
Sorry can't quote the references.
What is your specialty?
In reply to Tobias at Home:
I'm sorry, what was that about outrunning your climbing partners, Toby? Remind me where you were when I was finishing the CCC?
More seriously, I would think that anorexia doesn't need policing in the climbing comp world since it would be a sort of self-policing thing: if you really are too underweight, you won't do as well in the comp. And conversely, if you do do well, you're probably not too underweight. It's different than say, modeling, where all you've got to do is be fit enough to walk a few steps, which a model could manage even when unhealthily thin.
> (In reply to John_Hat) i can also out-walk or run all my climbing partners...
I'm sorry, what was that about outrunning your climbing partners, Toby? Remind me where you were when I was finishing the CCC?
More seriously, I would think that anorexia doesn't need policing in the climbing comp world since it would be a sort of self-policing thing: if you really are too underweight, you won't do as well in the comp. And conversely, if you do do well, you're probably not too underweight. It's different than say, modeling, where all you've got to do is be fit enough to walk a few steps, which a model could manage even when unhealthily thin.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
i suspect most of the people posting above have no first hand experience of working with people with eating disorders.
there are hundreds of documented cases of people exercising from dawn to dusk while restricting their food intake,self inducing vomiting and taking laxatives.
also there have several cases of competive cyclists at international level with eating disorders.so the idea you couldn't climb with one is naive.
i suspect most of the people posting above have no first hand experience of working with people with eating disorders.
there are hundreds of documented cases of people exercising from dawn to dusk while restricting their food intake,self inducing vomiting and taking laxatives.
also there have several cases of competive cyclists at international level with eating disorders.so the idea you couldn't climb with one is naive.
In reply to alicia: I'm not saying I agree or disagree with what is being proposed, but what you say (quoted below)in theory should be true, but it is not always the case.
More seriously, I would think that anorexia doesn't need policing in the climbing comp world since it would be a sort of self-policing thing: if you really are too underweight, you won't do as well in the comp.
More seriously, I would think that anorexia doesn't need policing in the climbing comp world since it would be a sort of self-policing thing: if you really are too underweight, you won't do as well in the comp.
In reply to steve webster:
I didn't mean that you couldn't climb with an eating disorder--of course you can. But I know from experimenting with my own weight that my grade improves as I lose weight, until I get to a very particular weight. After that, if I lose more weight, my grade gradually gets worse. If I were going to do a comp, I'd get to the weight at the top of the bell curve and not go below it; otherwise, I'd most likely climb worse at the comp.
> (In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC)
> i suspect most of the people posting above have no first hand experience of working with people with eating disorders.
> there are hundreds of documented cases of people exercising from dawn to dusk while restricting their food intake,self inducing vomiting and taking laxatives.
> also there have several cases of competive cyclists at international level with eating disorders.so the idea you couldn't climb with one is naive.
> i suspect most of the people posting above have no first hand experience of working with people with eating disorders.
> there are hundreds of documented cases of people exercising from dawn to dusk while restricting their food intake,self inducing vomiting and taking laxatives.
> also there have several cases of competive cyclists at international level with eating disorders.so the idea you couldn't climb with one is naive.
I didn't mean that you couldn't climb with an eating disorder--of course you can. But I know from experimenting with my own weight that my grade improves as I lose weight, until I get to a very particular weight. After that, if I lose more weight, my grade gradually gets worse. If I were going to do a comp, I'd get to the weight at the top of the bell curve and not go below it; otherwise, I'd most likely climb worse at the comp.
In reply to alicia:
Probably true.
But if you are anorexic, being thin is going to be more important than winning the competition.
I think this is irrelevent really, though - this is not going to stop anorexia! I really don't think climbing encourages it - ballet, gymnastics, modelling, yes - but I'm not convinced it is more prevalent amongst climbers than in the rest of the population.
> (In reply to steve webster)
> [...]
>
>
> I didn't mean that you couldn't climb with an eating disorder--of course you can. But I know from experimenting with my own weight that my grade improves as I lose weight, until I get to a very particular weight. After that, if I lose more weight, my grade gradually gets worse. If I were going to do a comp, I'd get to the weight at the top of the bell curve and not go below it; otherwise, I'd most likely climb worse at the comp.
> [...]
>
>
> I didn't mean that you couldn't climb with an eating disorder--of course you can. But I know from experimenting with my own weight that my grade improves as I lose weight, until I get to a very particular weight. After that, if I lose more weight, my grade gradually gets worse. If I were going to do a comp, I'd get to the weight at the top of the bell curve and not go below it; otherwise, I'd most likely climb worse at the comp.
Probably true.
But if you are anorexic, being thin is going to be more important than winning the competition.
I think this is irrelevent really, though - this is not going to stop anorexia! I really don't think climbing encourages it - ballet, gymnastics, modelling, yes - but I'm not convinced it is more prevalent amongst climbers than in the rest of the population.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
A very good comment on this from a girl called Marianne. No direct link available but you can see it on the right hand side of the page
http://www.8a.nu/
A very good comment on this from a girl called Marianne. No direct link available but you can see it on the right hand side of the page
http://www.8a.nu/
In reply to John_Hat:
Why would anyone want to join the police?
> (In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC)
My ex's brother (powerlifter, bouncer, judo instructor) was barred from joining the police for five years as his BMI was huge and they said that their charts said he was obese, so he couldn't join. FIVE years of arguments, three independent doctors, vast amounts of correspondence becasuse those who cannot think have invented something that their rather under-active brains can understand.Why would anyone want to join the police?
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
I copied this new article on the subject from 8a.nu;
Does climbers have to be scarecrow skinny?
After reading the comments in (a about banning anorectic climbers) I thought I would be a good idea to set the record straight in a scientific viewpoint. I have professionally treated anorectic patients and published articles on the subject and I share 8a’s concern about encouraging an unhealthy way of life.
Since climbing is a lot about pulling your own bodyweight – body weight to strength ratio is a very strong determinant of your climbing ability (once you have a good technique).
Thus bodyweight will always be one of the factors a good climber will want to manipulate.
Your bodyweight is determined by the size of your body and the composition of the material it is made up of.
Since muscles weight about five times as much as fat compared to volume (and the total weight of all the bones in the body is only about 12+-2 kg) the uninformed person will easily behave in a way that looses active weight (muscles) instead of deadweight (fat).
BMI (body mass index – a division of BW (kg) with height (m) squared) will get you mostly misinformed! A muscular person with low body fat can easily get a BMI of more than 40 (fat!) while a fat person with no muscles can go below 20 (lean!?). Swedens former prime minister, Göran Persson , an obviously fat and unfit individual actually boasts the same BMI as one of our most celebrated icehockey players (“Foppa” Forsberg), who certainly is a solid pack of muscles.
More elaborate ways of measuring body fat will be found outlined in the full version of this text (click here)
The low bodyweight race will unfortunately be more beneficial if you allow “human spiders” to take endless time scaling walls. If we instead start to enforce time limits on accents, keep the routes within reasonable length and encourage “power” routes - we will encourage behavior which leads to strong and healthy climbers.
True Anorexia is a mental disease – a very deadly one! – So it is not a bad mission to try to not lure people in to an anorectic eating behavior! Remember that, while the hospitalized anorectic patient most often have trauma in their childhood more specifically in their parental relationship, the anorectic behavior of the climber is most often induced by the misconception that it will deliver better performance. Just as for the true anorectic the anorectic climber will loose performance and increase illness with this behavior – it should however be easier to set the climber straight if he/she realizes that they are playing a loosing game, than it is to help correct the motivation that drives the true anorectic.
I am not naive enough to think that we don’t have true anorectics in our ranks; through I think they are a minority. I however think that there are many climbers that by ignorance tread the anorectic path. They will face the same consequences.
If performance is your game then;
Keep your body fat at a safe level;
Not lower than; 8% for a healthy male and 12% for a healthy female
Top competitors might drop even lower for short periods of time but that is risk taking
When loosing body weight;
Your body fat should go down but not your muscle mass – if your muscle mass goes down
(bioimpedance will tell )
– Rest and eat more.
Remember that every top athlete
– Need plenty of carbohydrates on a regular basis
– Need at least 1 gram per kg bodyweight of protein, of high biological value, per day
– Needs a low but steady dose of poly unsaturated fats
– Needs vitamins, minerals at set dose every day
Some tips;
If your resting pulse starts to rise – rest and eat more
If you start to be more frequently ill (trivial infections) -– rest and eat more
If you compare your body weight with your relative waist to butt circumference (the circumference around your pelvis where the butt is most prominent) you have a much more precise tool for measuring performance weight loss – your butt should always be bigger than your waist otherwise you are loosing more muscle than fat!
If you keep you butt to waist ratio at 0.8 or below and at the same time keep your BMI above 18 (at least) you should be safe (healthy)
Loosing weight in total ignorance of these facts is simply stupid and counterproductive
Climbing is about living life to its full extent life not about denial
Climb better – loose only the deadweight by smartly applying scientific fact to practice – Don’t loose to much!
See somebody out there who has lost his or her perspective?! Help them out –point them in the right direction
Dr 8a Björn Alber
Md sport medicine PhD Sports physiology
www.genesishealth.se
www.8a.nu
I copied this new article on the subject from 8a.nu;
Does climbers have to be scarecrow skinny?
After reading the comments in (a about banning anorectic climbers) I thought I would be a good idea to set the record straight in a scientific viewpoint. I have professionally treated anorectic patients and published articles on the subject and I share 8a’s concern about encouraging an unhealthy way of life.
Since climbing is a lot about pulling your own bodyweight – body weight to strength ratio is a very strong determinant of your climbing ability (once you have a good technique).
Thus bodyweight will always be one of the factors a good climber will want to manipulate.
Your bodyweight is determined by the size of your body and the composition of the material it is made up of.
Since muscles weight about five times as much as fat compared to volume (and the total weight of all the bones in the body is only about 12+-2 kg) the uninformed person will easily behave in a way that looses active weight (muscles) instead of deadweight (fat).
BMI (body mass index – a division of BW (kg) with height (m) squared) will get you mostly misinformed! A muscular person with low body fat can easily get a BMI of more than 40 (fat!) while a fat person with no muscles can go below 20 (lean!?). Swedens former prime minister, Göran Persson , an obviously fat and unfit individual actually boasts the same BMI as one of our most celebrated icehockey players (“Foppa” Forsberg), who certainly is a solid pack of muscles.
More elaborate ways of measuring body fat will be found outlined in the full version of this text (click here)
The low bodyweight race will unfortunately be more beneficial if you allow “human spiders” to take endless time scaling walls. If we instead start to enforce time limits on accents, keep the routes within reasonable length and encourage “power” routes - we will encourage behavior which leads to strong and healthy climbers.
True Anorexia is a mental disease – a very deadly one! – So it is not a bad mission to try to not lure people in to an anorectic eating behavior! Remember that, while the hospitalized anorectic patient most often have trauma in their childhood more specifically in their parental relationship, the anorectic behavior of the climber is most often induced by the misconception that it will deliver better performance. Just as for the true anorectic the anorectic climber will loose performance and increase illness with this behavior – it should however be easier to set the climber straight if he/she realizes that they are playing a loosing game, than it is to help correct the motivation that drives the true anorectic.
I am not naive enough to think that we don’t have true anorectics in our ranks; through I think they are a minority. I however think that there are many climbers that by ignorance tread the anorectic path. They will face the same consequences.
If performance is your game then;
Keep your body fat at a safe level;
Not lower than; 8% for a healthy male and 12% for a healthy female
Top competitors might drop even lower for short periods of time but that is risk taking
When loosing body weight;
Your body fat should go down but not your muscle mass – if your muscle mass goes down
(bioimpedance will tell )
– Rest and eat more.
Remember that every top athlete
– Need plenty of carbohydrates on a regular basis
– Need at least 1 gram per kg bodyweight of protein, of high biological value, per day
– Needs a low but steady dose of poly unsaturated fats
– Needs vitamins, minerals at set dose every day
Some tips;
If your resting pulse starts to rise – rest and eat more
If you start to be more frequently ill (trivial infections) -– rest and eat more
If you compare your body weight with your relative waist to butt circumference (the circumference around your pelvis where the butt is most prominent) you have a much more precise tool for measuring performance weight loss – your butt should always be bigger than your waist otherwise you are loosing more muscle than fat!
If you keep you butt to waist ratio at 0.8 or below and at the same time keep your BMI above 18 (at least) you should be safe (healthy)
Loosing weight in total ignorance of these facts is simply stupid and counterproductive
Climbing is about living life to its full extent life not about denial
Climb better – loose only the deadweight by smartly applying scientific fact to practice – Don’t loose to much!
See somebody out there who has lost his or her perspective?! Help them out –point them in the right direction
Dr 8a Björn Alber
Md sport medicine PhD Sports physiology
www.genesishealth.se
www.8a.nu
In reply to John_Hat: Hello, I am a climber who is 5'6, 96 pounds and 15 year s old. When I read about the Austrian BMI restriction I was absolutely appalled because I have a BMI of 15.7 and just a few months ago it was 15.4 (as I am a growing teenager it is constantly changing). I am in very good health, with no eating disorder but my genetics leave me with a thin build. I am currently competing internationally with climbing and so this is partially why the Austrian restriction shocked me so much. If I was living in Austria I would not be allowed to participate in the international competitions that I do representing Canada.
If anyone has an English translation of the official documentation of Austria not allowing climbers who have a lower BMI than 17 to compete internationally it would be greatly appreciated if it could be e-mailed to me at dyno5_13@yahoo.ca.
If anyone has an English translation of the official documentation of Austria not allowing climbers who have a lower BMI than 17 to compete internationally it would be greatly appreciated if it could be e-mailed to me at dyno5_13@yahoo.ca.
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