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I working on a novel for teens and have a couple of scenes where an experienced teen climber needs to climb the vertical wall of an (newish) 4 story annex to an English country house. I'm imagining it will be old enough to have vines but as a non climber I have no idea what would be involved.
Can anybody recommend something to read on this or perhaps give me some idea of how a climber would go up and down a wall like this? The boy will go up twice -- the first time he goes up and down himself at night, the second, he takes a girl (who has been kidnapped) down with him.
All help gratefully received,
Joe
Can anybody recommend something to read on this or perhaps give me some idea of how a climber would go up and down a wall like this? The boy will go up twice -- the first time he goes up and down himself at night, the second, he takes a girl (who has been kidnapped) down with him.
All help gratefully received,
Joe
In reply to Joe Friedman: A teen climber would never be strong enough to carry themselves and a kidnap victim (rememer they'd be a dead weight down a building.
In reply to Joe Friedman:
Drain pipe is your best bet. Other than that, a chimney formed between two parts of the building (perhaps a recessed area created when a new bit was added to the structure) is often a good option. However the damsel in distress will need to be able to climb down as well, because there's no way the climber could CARRY her and climb down something like that...
Drain pipe is your best bet. Other than that, a chimney formed between two parts of the building (perhaps a recessed area created when a new bit was added to the structure) is often a good option. However the damsel in distress will need to be able to climb down as well, because there's no way the climber could CARRY her and climb down something like that...
In reply to Alex Roddie:
He could lower her using an Italian hitch. An Oak beam in the country house would make a good solid anchor.
He could lower her using an Italian hitch. An Oak beam in the country house would make a good solid anchor.
In reply to Joe Friedman:
Old style cast-iron waste pipes are generally strong enough and run down past bathrooms. Easier than pipes running down from gutters, which are normally in corners and difficult to get into the house from. Climbing down: need to lower someone down by using a rope or making a rope out of blankets. Couldn't carry someone unless very light.
Old style cast-iron waste pipes are generally strong enough and run down past bathrooms. Easier than pipes running down from gutters, which are normally in corners and difficult to get into the house from. Climbing down: need to lower someone down by using a rope or making a rope out of blankets. Couldn't carry someone unless very light.
In reply to Joe Friedman:
It's just occurred to me that he might be rescuing the girl rather than kidnapping her and could encourage/help her to climb down.
It's just occurred to me that he might be rescuing the girl rather than kidnapping her and could encourage/help her to climb down.
In reply to Joe Friedman: He could climb up the stone work like Pippin does in the last Lord of the Rings film.
*Then he could chuck a mattress out the window chuck her after it, slide down the telephone wire, poison the guard dogs and kill all the baddies with a mach 10.
*If you use this I want royalties.
*Then he could chuck a mattress out the window chuck her after it, slide down the telephone wire, poison the guard dogs and kill all the baddies with a mach 10.
*If you use this I want royalties.
In reply to nightclimber:
Thanks to everyone for your replies, but as I'm a complete novice when it comes to climbing, you'll need to explain a bit more...
From your messages, I'm guessing that plastic drainpipes won't be strong enough (is that right?), which might mean I need to make the building older. How old would it have to be to have a cast iron one?
This may be a stupid question but is it not possible for an experienced climber to go up a wall using handholds? And if not, how would you get sideways from the first floor window to the drainpipe?
Finally, I was imagining this teen would be quite fit, what with climbing and cross country running. He'd also have a rope when bringing her down and would be saving her (she's cooperating though weak and probably not much help.) Would this make it any easier?
Joe
Thanks to everyone for your replies, but as I'm a complete novice when it comes to climbing, you'll need to explain a bit more...
From your messages, I'm guessing that plastic drainpipes won't be strong enough (is that right?), which might mean I need to make the building older. How old would it have to be to have a cast iron one?
This may be a stupid question but is it not possible for an experienced climber to go up a wall using handholds? And if not, how would you get sideways from the first floor window to the drainpipe?
Finally, I was imagining this teen would be quite fit, what with climbing and cross country running. He'd also have a rope when bringing her down and would be saving her (she's cooperating though weak and probably not much help.) Would this make it any easier?
Joe
In reply to Joe Friedman:
Might an annex to a country house might specify iron drainpipes to fit in with the existing architecture.
Yes, no problem if they're big enough. Stone walls with reasonably worn mortar is not to bad, recent brickwork with good mortar pretty hard to climb.
Easy enough to lower her with a rope. Anchor of a bed stead or something.
> From your messages, I'm guessing that plastic drainpipes won't be strong enough (is that right?), which might mean I need to make the building older. How old would it have to be to have a cast iron one?
Might an annex to a country house might specify iron drainpipes to fit in with the existing architecture.
> This may be a stupid question but is it not possible for an experienced climber to go up a wall using handholds?
Yes, no problem if they're big enough. Stone walls with reasonably worn mortar is not to bad, recent brickwork with good mortar pretty hard to climb.
Easy enough to lower her with a rope. Anchor of a bed stead or something.
In reply to Swig:
This sentence needs editing, second might should be a not!
> Might an annex to a country house might specify iron drainpipes to fit in with the existing architecture.
This sentence needs editing, second might should be a not!
In reply to Joe Friedman: no, an experienced climber couldn't go up a modern wall - I'm not sure anyone out there is climbing brickwork alone - you need some sort of get-out. old scaffold, older, decaying brickwork with missing mortar, perhaps? stone work, lightning conductor, old gutters, that kind of thing.
In reply to Swig:
That's very helpful. I like the idea of the annex being in keeping, and guess that that could extend to stone walls.
Re bringing her down, is lowering her down the only way to work it? Could they not come down together using the rope (anchored to the bed) to help him carry her?
Joe
That's very helpful. I like the idea of the annex being in keeping, and guess that that could extend to stone walls.
Re bringing her down, is lowering her down the only way to work it? Could they not come down together using the rope (anchored to the bed) to help him carry her?
Joe
In reply to toadwork:
Okay. The annex has to be old too. I knew I was ignorant but clearly I was attributing magical powers to climbers!
Joe
Okay. The annex has to be old too. I knew I was ignorant but clearly I was attributing magical powers to climbers!
Joe
In reply to Joe Friedman:
I know on some houses, with more modern brickwork, they make the bricks on the corners stick out slightly, as a feature, usually a different colour. They just stick out by about a CM more than the rest of the brickwork which can be used to climb up.
I know on some houses, with more modern brickwork, they make the bricks on the corners stick out slightly, as a feature, usually a different colour. They just stick out by about a CM more than the rest of the brickwork which can be used to climb up.
In reply to Joe Friedman: A friend of mine climbed one of the inside walls of Jesus College Oxford. I think he used a combination of the cast iron drainpipe, window ledges, and the very old wisteria. Alternatively, yes it is possible to climb many late victorian/early 20thC buildings (mock Georgian?) where they have large limestone blocks that form small finger ledges. Common on bank buildings etc.
I would say your best bet is wisteria as it is common on English country houses and has very strong branches.
Plastic drainpipes would be absolutely lethal - they are only screwed in.
It is ludicrous to think that you could climb several stories with a person of similar weight on your back. Even easy climbing with a small rucksack is quite difficult as it changes your centre of gravity.
You can't lower someone with a rope alone - you need something to increase the friction - like an italian hitch as someone mentioned.
I would say your best bet is wisteria as it is common on English country houses and has very strong branches.
Plastic drainpipes would be absolutely lethal - they are only screwed in.
It is ludicrous to think that you could climb several stories with a person of similar weight on your back. Even easy climbing with a small rucksack is quite difficult as it changes your centre of gravity.
You can't lower someone with a rope alone - you need something to increase the friction - like an italian hitch as someone mentioned.
In reply to Joe Friedman:
I don't know, but my house was built in about 1910 and has cast iron drainpipes.
> How old would it have to be to have a cast iron one?
I don't know, but my house was built in about 1910 and has cast iron drainpipes.
In reply to toadwork:
I'm sure a good climber could bridge/back and foot up even a modern brickwork corner.
They could come down together using the rope. The easiest way to do this would be an assisted abseil where they are both in harnesses attached to a single abseil device which he controls down the rope. Alternatively - if he was strong) he could hold her to his chest with one arm and abseil down using a single harness.
> I'm not sure anyone out there is climbing brickwork alone
I'm sure a good climber could bridge/back and foot up even a modern brickwork corner.
They could come down together using the rope. The easiest way to do this would be an assisted abseil where they are both in harnesses attached to a single abseil device which he controls down the rope. Alternatively - if he was strong) he could hold her to his chest with one arm and abseil down using a single harness.
In reply to Joe Friedman: Work on the assumtion that a climber would need regualar hand holds of between 5mm and 10mm deep, you can make these out of whatever you like, featured brick, stone, old mortar, etc.
The easiest way of getting them down is for the girl to be lowered using a friction knot or the friction of the rope running round the boys body. He could then abseil down the rope by wrapping it round his body in a certain way. The rope would be doubled round the bed stead so he could pull on one end to get it back when finished.
The easiest way of getting them down is for the girl to be lowered using a friction knot or the friction of the rope running round the boys body. He could then abseil down the rope by wrapping it round his body in a certain way. The rope would be doubled round the bed stead so he could pull on one end to get it back when finished.
In reply to Stig:
Stig
Thanks for all the help. I've looked up "Italian hitch" on Wikipedia and understand it's a kind of knot that helps reduce the friction. Would he be up on the fourth floor lowering her to the ground, or would he tie the knot up on the bed of the fourth floor, climb down and then lower her?
Joe
Stig
Thanks for all the help. I've looked up "Italian hitch" on Wikipedia and understand it's a kind of knot that helps reduce the friction. Would he be up on the fourth floor lowering her to the ground, or would he tie the knot up on the bed of the fourth floor, climb down and then lower her?
Joe
In reply to Dux: Harnesses, belay, devices and Karabiners are not necessary for any of this.
In reply to Joe Friedman: The italian hitch increases friction to control the lower. It is possible to just pass the rope over the shoulders and use this friction to lower people.
In reply to Joe Friedman:
The house needn't be that old - you still often get cast iron downpipes, particularly the bottom 2m or so, for robustness. I've specified that detail in the past and still do. Cast iron was used until quite recently for many larger houses.
The internal corner idea is good; he/she could bridge out between heavily rusticated stonework walls, (where the stone isn't smooth, but projects in a random chunky manner by maybe 4" / 100mm, except at the bed joints which are all on the same vertical plane) They could have the back up of being able to hold onto a downpipe of some kind if required.
The house needn't be that old - you still often get cast iron downpipes, particularly the bottom 2m or so, for robustness. I've specified that detail in the past and still do. Cast iron was used until quite recently for many larger houses.
The internal corner idea is good; he/she could bridge out between heavily rusticated stonework walls, (where the stone isn't smooth, but projects in a random chunky manner by maybe 4" / 100mm, except at the bed joints which are all on the same vertical plane) They could have the back up of being able to hold onto a downpipe of some kind if required.
In reply to Richard Hall:
Richard
I see you answered my question to Swig while I was writing it. By a friction knot, I'm assuming you mean something like an Italian hitch.
Finally, when you say he could abseil down with the rope tied around his body in a certain way -- what would that certain way be?
Many thanks,
Joe
Richard
I see you answered my question to Swig while I was writing it. By a friction knot, I'm assuming you mean something like an Italian hitch.
Finally, when you say he could abseil down with the rope tied around his body in a certain way -- what would that certain way be?
Many thanks,
Joe
In reply to Joe Friedman: Yep an italian hitch (you can abseil with them as well) will try and find a picture of body belaying / abseiling.
In reply to toadwork:
When I first started visiting concordia climbing wall in cramlington, the NMC challenge was to traverse the wall without using the official holds. Standard pointing width but squared off about 3/4cm in.
> I'm not sure anyone out there is climbing brickwork alone -
When I first started visiting concordia climbing wall in cramlington, the NMC challenge was to traverse the wall without using the official holds. Standard pointing width but squared off about 3/4cm in.
In reply to Joe Friedman: You would lower someone using a stance like in the 3rd picture here, allowing the rope to slide slowly though your hands.
http://www.psychovertical.com/?bodybelay
Your character would have to take a firm, bracing stance.
Will look for a picture to demonstrate the abseil, but it is a similar principle.
http://www.psychovertical.com/?bodybelay
Your character would have to take a firm, bracing stance.
Will look for a picture to demonstrate the abseil, but it is a similar principle.
In reply to Joe Friedman: Some of my friends at university lived in rooms equipped with fire escape devices similar to this http://emc4rescue.com/catalogs/rit/it010003.htm . One end of the rope was permanently attached to a solid anchor underneath the window, and a waist belt type harness was included. A window equipped with such a fire escape system would be very easy to lower somebody from.
In reply to Dux:
"Bridge" means go sideways? I do like the idea of them coming down together. I suppose she'd be strong enough to hold herself to his chest if they abseiled. Would they need to be tied together or separately? And when you say "harness" do you mean a way of tying the rope or is it a separate piece of apparatus?
It would be great to read a detailed description of this being done -- do you know of any where I might find this?
Many thanks,
Joe
"Bridge" means go sideways? I do like the idea of them coming down together. I suppose she'd be strong enough to hold herself to his chest if they abseiled. Would they need to be tied together or separately? And when you say "harness" do you mean a way of tying the rope or is it a separate piece of apparatus?
It would be great to read a detailed description of this being done -- do you know of any where I might find this?
Many thanks,
Joe
In reply to John2:
This would be brilliant but I'm imagining a locked room which wouldn't be similarly equipped.
Joe
This would be brilliant but I'm imagining a locked room which wouldn't be similarly equipped.
Joe
In reply to Richard Hall: Cant find a picture but the rope goes round the hip, between the legs, up over a shoulder and down to a hand. It is very painfull and hard to control over a vertical drop however.
Better to tie a sling round the waist, attach a karabiner to that and abseil with an italian hitch on the karabiner.
Better to tie a sling round the waist, attach a karabiner to that and abseil with an italian hitch on the karabiner.
In reply to Joe Friedman:
A 'classic abseil' uses no equipment, so if he is climbing without a harness then that would be the best bet.
To lower her it is ossible to make a harness out of the rope only by creating 4 loops and tying them off with an overhand knot. She could be lowered using this and he would then follow using a classic abseil.
If he is climbing the outside without any protection or a rope this is called 'soloing' as opposed to 'free climbing' (free climbing still uses equipment) which is a common error when climbing is reported in the mass media.
A 'classic abseil' uses no equipment, so if he is climbing without a harness then that would be the best bet.
To lower her it is ossible to make a harness out of the rope only by creating 4 loops and tying them off with an overhand knot. She could be lowered using this and he would then follow using a classic abseil.
If he is climbing the outside without any protection or a rope this is called 'soloing' as opposed to 'free climbing' (free climbing still uses equipment) which is a common error when climbing is reported in the mass media.
In reply to Richard Hall: Actually I think if I were in the position I would probably just slide down the rope wearing gloves, very fast and simple. Please note though, he would not wear gloves for the climbing.
In reply to Richard Hall:
I think I'm getting the picture. I'm assuming this is the way to get the climber down, having already lowered the girl and that it wouldn't work with two abseiling down.
I'm trying to minimize the equipment involved, as our hero will have to smuggle whatever he needs in. I guess there's no substitute for the karabiner, but what innocent item could a sling be made out of?
Again, many thanks for your patience and help.
Joe
I think I'm getting the picture. I'm assuming this is the way to get the climber down, having already lowered the girl and that it wouldn't work with two abseiling down.
I'm trying to minimize the equipment involved, as our hero will have to smuggle whatever he needs in. I guess there's no substitute for the karabiner, but what innocent item could a sling be made out of?
Again, many thanks for your patience and help.
Joe
In reply to Joe Friedman:
Go to your local climbing club, find a couple of volunteers (girl and guy) and get permission to use a few suitable buildings and get them to try various different ways. Watch and learn.
It'll cost you some persuasion, a few beers and some time. Most clubs would greatly enjoy such goofing around.
Authors frequently undertake research and you might pick up on a really cool trick for your novel specific to one of the building designs.
Go to your local climbing club, find a couple of volunteers (girl and guy) and get permission to use a few suitable buildings and get them to try various different ways. Watch and learn.
It'll cost you some persuasion, a few beers and some time. Most clubs would greatly enjoy such goofing around.
Authors frequently undertake research and you might pick up on a really cool trick for your novel specific to one of the building designs.
In reply to peterjb:
Another person who does research! Yes, it's not boobela and worm. It's a novel for older kids...
Another person who does research! Yes, it's not boobela and worm. It's a novel for older kids...
In reply to The Crow:
This is a brilliant idea and I'm ashamed I didn't think of it myself. Many thanks.
This is a brilliant idea and I'm ashamed I didn't think of it myself. Many thanks.
In reply to Joe Friedman:
this youtube video should give some inspiration: youtube.com/watch?v=cvEaKIBv_dk&
this youtube video should give some inspiration: youtube.com/watch?v=cvEaKIBv_dk&
In reply to Joe Friedman:
A rescue can be done entirely with a rope. Today's climbers are metalware dependant - ignore the suggestions above that depend on additional gear and set this as part of your challenge to your guinea-pigs.
A rescue can be done entirely with a rope. Today's climbers are metalware dependant - ignore the suggestions above that depend on additional gear and set this as part of your challenge to your guinea-pigs.
In reply to Joe Friedman:
this should win a prize for being the most original forum thread on UKC.
my suggestion is that you attempt to break into some 4 storey country houses tonight, do your research, either that or contact fathers for justice, they know a thing or 2 about climbing houses
this should win a prize for being the most original forum thread on UKC.
my suggestion is that you attempt to break into some 4 storey country houses tonight, do your research, either that or contact fathers for justice, they know a thing or 2 about climbing houses
In reply to Joe Friedman:
and some video of a classic abseil using no equipment other than a rope.
youtube.com/watch?v=ao0A-5-87Kw&
and some video of a classic abseil using no equipment other than a rope.
youtube.com/watch?v=ao0A-5-87Kw&
In reply to Joe Friedman: You could take a trip to a climbing wall Joe and get someone to explain abseiling to you. It may help you envisage the scene better. Also if the hero lowers down the heroine then he himself abseils off then it will increase the time taken to reach safety, could you build something into the story, a chase perhaps, to heighten the tension during their escape?
This weekend you should book yourself into a nice, old hotel and, over a sumptious repast, imagine how people would escape from it. Just put it down as 'research' for your book!
This weekend you should book yourself into a nice, old hotel and, over a sumptious repast, imagine how people would escape from it. Just put it down as 'research' for your book!
In reply to ring ouzel:
I have visited a couple of country houses and tried to imagine climbing their walls -- there was certainly enough decaying stonework to give footholds. I also took lots of photos. But I like the hotel idea...
I have visited a couple of country houses and tried to imagine climbing their walls -- there was certainly enough decaying stonework to give footholds. I also took lots of photos. But I like the hotel idea...
In reply to peterjb:
Ta for correcting an error before I made it -- I was going to call it free climbing. I do like the idea of using the rope alone -- it fits the plot better. And I think a trip to a climbing wall is the best way to get an idea of how to make a harness out of just rope.
Any suggestions on walls to visit near north London?
Ta for correcting an error before I made it -- I was going to call it free climbing. I do like the idea of using the rope alone -- it fits the plot better. And I think a trip to a climbing wall is the best way to get an idea of how to make a harness out of just rope.
Any suggestions on walls to visit near north London?
In reply to Joe Friedman:
I think story-wise, with no need for any ropes etc, his best bet would be to knot a number of sheets together and lower the girl with this improvised 'rope' wrapped once round the top of an old-style radiator (assuming the old house has this) by a window. The radiator would act as a friction device. He'd tie her to the end simply with it round her waist and fastened with a bowline. When she's safely down, he'd tie his end of the 'rope' to the radiator with a round turn and two half hitches, and either lower himself down hand over hand, or more securely by doing a 'classic' abseil. (Rope goes between legs, up round right side of bottom, across chest, over left shoulder and then run through right hand.)
I think story-wise, with no need for any ropes etc, his best bet would be to knot a number of sheets together and lower the girl with this improvised 'rope' wrapped once round the top of an old-style radiator (assuming the old house has this) by a window. The radiator would act as a friction device. He'd tie her to the end simply with it round her waist and fastened with a bowline. When she's safely down, he'd tie his end of the 'rope' to the radiator with a round turn and two half hitches, and either lower himself down hand over hand, or more securely by doing a 'classic' abseil. (Rope goes between legs, up round right side of bottom, across chest, over left shoulder and then run through right hand.)
In reply to Joe Friedman:
If you were/are in the highlands I'd be delighted to help out. After all it's such a fun thing to do. Why not post where you are based and invite guinea-pigs right now?
If you were/are in the highlands I'd be delighted to help out. After all it's such a fun thing to do. Why not post where you are based and invite guinea-pigs right now?
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
As it's one locked room with one sheet I don't think this would work. I think he can manage to smuggle a rope in desguised as a belt. Do you think a radiator would be better than a bed as something to tie the rope to?
As it's one locked room with one sheet I don't think this would work. I think he can manage to smuggle a rope in desguised as a belt. Do you think a radiator would be better than a bed as something to tie the rope to?
In reply to The Crow:
You guys are truly amazing. I imagined something like getting a reply or two in the next week. I'm based in north london but could drive a couple of hours...
You guys are truly amazing. I imagined something like getting a reply or two in the next week. I'm based in north london but could drive a couple of hours...
In reply to ClimberEd:
As I typed my last message this was beginning to dawn on me... or very thin rope...
As I typed my last message this was beginning to dawn on me... or very thin rope...
In reply to Joe Friedman:
The bed would have to be quite heavy, and pulled across to the window so that it won't get dragged across the floor by the weight of either of them. Surely there would be at least two sheets, and possibly a duvet cover? The sheets could be torn lengthwise into several strips and would almost certainly still be strong enough (that of course would add to the suspense ... will the improvised 'rope' be strong enough?)
The bed would have to be quite heavy, and pulled across to the window so that it won't get dragged across the floor by the weight of either of them. Surely there would be at least two sheets, and possibly a duvet cover? The sheets could be torn lengthwise into several strips and would almost certainly still be strong enough (that of course would add to the suspense ... will the improvised 'rope' be strong enough?)
In reply to Joe Friedman: Of course, if the hotel room was on the ground floor you could side-step the whole abseiling-with-sheets scenario and just throw her out the window onto the lawn then into the Morgan and roar off up the gravel drive, spitting stones as the car slides round the corner, onto the road and away! Or something.
In reply to Joe Friedman:
Bridging is where a climber pushes against two opposing surfaces - that way you can rely on friction more than "holds"
Traversing is climbing sideways.
More climbing terms here..
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=33
Bridging is where a climber pushes against two opposing surfaces - that way you can rely on friction more than "holds"
Traversing is climbing sideways.
More climbing terms here..
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=33
In reply to Joe Friedman:
I supose it depends on the bed/radiator. Most period houses will have a heavy cast iron radiator which is attached firmly to the wall under a windom. If the bed is light it might scrape across the room. Also a radiator would give better friction as they normally have gaps in them through which you could pass the rope. A rope can also be made by tearing a sheet a few times and tying ends together. A well made-up bed would have more than enough material to make a reasonable lengthed rope but of course would take more time.
I supose it depends on the bed/radiator. Most period houses will have a heavy cast iron radiator which is attached firmly to the wall under a windom. If the bed is light it might scrape across the room. Also a radiator would give better friction as they normally have gaps in them through which you could pass the rope. A rope can also be made by tearing a sheet a few times and tying ends together. A well made-up bed would have more than enough material to make a reasonable lengthed rope but of course would take more time.
In reply to Joe Friedman:
thin ropes make everything more difficult and painful, as reduced friction and cutting to the hands. does he have to smuggle the rope past someone while appearing totally normal?
thin ropes make everything more difficult and painful, as reduced friction and cutting to the hands. does he have to smuggle the rope past someone while appearing totally normal?
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
A classic bridging technique is 'chimneying' with back and foot (not technically very hard). Bridging, with each foot on opposing walls, is much more difficult. Good diagram of both techniques here:
http://climbing.tropic.org.uk/index.php?title=Chimneys
A classic bridging technique is 'chimneying' with back and foot (not technically very hard). Bridging, with each foot on opposing walls, is much more difficult. Good diagram of both techniques here:
http://climbing.tropic.org.uk/index.php?title=Chimneys
In reply to pmagowan:
This is getting tricky... I can see a belt won't work. How thick a rope would he need to do the kind of things we're talking about -- abseiling and lowering somebody to the ground. And how long a rope would we need to get someone from the fourth floor down to the ground? I was imagining his bag would be searched which was how I originally arrived at the idea of a belt...
This is getting tricky... I can see a belt won't work. How thick a rope would he need to do the kind of things we're talking about -- abseiling and lowering somebody to the ground. And how long a rope would we need to get someone from the fourth floor down to the ground? I was imagining his bag would be searched which was how I originally arrived at the idea of a belt...
In reply to Joe Friedman:
To be honest the sheets look like the best bet here. You could use a very thin rope strength-wise but is would be very sore on the hands and difficult to use for the techniques above. Length depends on height, plus a few meeters for knots and making harness etc. Even a very short rope would be hard to hide on your body, you could research this at a local climbing wall.
To be honest the sheets look like the best bet here. You could use a very thin rope strength-wise but is would be very sore on the hands and difficult to use for the techniques above. Length depends on height, plus a few meeters for knots and making harness etc. Even a very short rope would be hard to hide on your body, you could research this at a local climbing wall.
In reply to Joe Friedman:
He might need as much as 50 or 60 feet (and that would be to use it singly, and not doubled, as in ordinary abseiling) - he would never be able to 'smuggle' that length of rope into the house. A climbing rope doesn't have to be very thick (8mm would do) but that would be excruciatingly painful for a classic abseil. The knotted sheets scenario is still by far your best better. Curtains could be used too.
He might need as much as 50 or 60 feet (and that would be to use it singly, and not doubled, as in ordinary abseiling) - he would never be able to 'smuggle' that length of rope into the house. A climbing rope doesn't have to be very thick (8mm would do) but that would be excruciatingly painful for a classic abseil. The knotted sheets scenario is still by far your best better. Curtains could be used too.
In reply to Joe Friedman: maybe he could place several boulder mats and treat it like a high ball boulder problem?
In reply to Joe Friedman: Maybe the source of the rope could be in the house, perhaps they have roped off galleries or a rope bridge across a lake for guests, ropes to keep the boats moored on the lake, maybe garden netting to cover their strawberries; things which would need spares kept on the premises. You can see why I studied Ecology rather than literature cant you?
In reply to Joe Friedman:
It's great that you are bothering to research this. Philip Pullman may be critically acclaimed, but his references to climbing in The Amber Spyglass were cringe-makingly inaccurate - and any climber could have told him so.
Once your chapter is finished you might also considering posting again on here for volunteers to read it through for authenticity (particularly if it supposed to be in the voice of an experienced teen climber). I for one would do this (and even have access to an experienced teen climber of my own who would be thrilled to help).
It's great that you are bothering to research this. Philip Pullman may be critically acclaimed, but his references to climbing in The Amber Spyglass were cringe-makingly inaccurate - and any climber could have told him so.
Once your chapter is finished you might also considering posting again on here for volunteers to read it through for authenticity (particularly if it supposed to be in the voice of an experienced teen climber). I for one would do this (and even have access to an experienced teen climber of my own who would be thrilled to help).
In reply to pmagowan:
If there were sufficient sheets/curtains - and these could be cut/torn into strips as necessary (assuming he has some kind of penknife, perhaps with scissors?) he could also tie loops into the 'rope', with simple overhand knots. The rope could then be climbed down as a kind of rope ladder, and so avoid the need for either lowering or abseiling.
If there were sufficient sheets/curtains - and these could be cut/torn into strips as necessary (assuming he has some kind of penknife, perhaps with scissors?) he could also tie loops into the 'rope', with simple overhand knots. The rope could then be climbed down as a kind of rope ladder, and so avoid the need for either lowering or abseiling.
In reply to nell:
I'd be happy to email it to anybody who could be bothered to read it. I didn't originally propose this because I thought I was already trespassing enough on your hospitality. The climbing chapter will be near the end of the book and I'm hoping to get to it in the next 6 weeks. Then there will be rewriting so it might might be quite a while before they're in any shape to be read, though.
I'd be happy to email it to anybody who could be bothered to read it. I didn't originally propose this because I thought I was already trespassing enough on your hospitality. The climbing chapter will be near the end of the book and I'm hoping to get to it in the next 6 weeks. Then there will be rewriting so it might might be quite a while before they're in any shape to be read, though.
In reply to Swig: I've heard it can make or break your strawberry crop. :-P
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I'm beginning to see how the old cliche of climbing down sheets developed... I guess he could strip his bed and add the sheets to hers. If they didn't have duvets that would be two sheets a bed, four sheets in total...How thin could the strips off the sheet be?
I'm beginning to see how the old cliche of climbing down sheets developed... I guess he could strip his bed and add the sheets to hers. If they didn't have duvets that would be two sheets a bed, four sheets in total...How thin could the strips off the sheet be?
In reply to Joe Friedman:
BTW - I'm being serious - where do you live? If you are anywhere near Derbyshire, we could perhaps meet up with few other UKCers and actually do the thing for real. It could be great fun, and then as a writer you would have the full authenticity of the experience. We would use a safety rope in case the sheets broke ... All we need is the country house ... Mine isn't big enough to be of much use.
BTW - I'm being serious - where do you live? If you are anywhere near Derbyshire, we could perhaps meet up with few other UKCers and actually do the thing for real. It could be great fun, and then as a writer you would have the full authenticity of the experience. We would use a safety rope in case the sheets broke ... All we need is the country house ... Mine isn't big enough to be of much use.
In reply to Joe Friedman:
Well, you could certainly tear each sheet down the middle to double the length, and use curtains too, if necessary. I think my loop suggestion, above, is your best bet too, that that would need a much longer 'rope'.
Well, you could certainly tear each sheet down the middle to double the length, and use curtains too, if necessary. I think my loop suggestion, above, is your best bet too, that that would need a much longer 'rope'.
In reply to Joe Friedman: You could get about 12m in total if you ripped each sheet in two and deducted length as it would be taken up by the knots. How high is a 4 storey building?
In reply to mm548:
if you could use this idea in the story line it would work. My 10 yr old son climbed half way up the outside of an old church cos they had this kind of feature up the corners of the building... like a glorified step ladder...
needless to say i was not happy and had to persuade him to come down!
hehe
> (In reply to Joe Friedman)
>
> I know on some houses, with more modern brickwork, they make the bricks on the corners stick out slightly, as a feature
>
> I know on some houses, with more modern brickwork, they make the bricks on the corners stick out slightly, as a feature
if you could use this idea in the story line it would work. My 10 yr old son climbed half way up the outside of an old church cos they had this kind of feature up the corners of the building... like a glorified step ladder...
needless to say i was not happy and had to persuade him to come down!
hehe
In reply to Joe Friedman: as well as sheets, a rug could be used, a carpet perhaps and any tapestries the manor might have?
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
That's very generous. I live in North London so it's about 3 hours to Derbyshire. Not impossible on a weekend. As for country houses, we could research ones close to you (or somewhere between us). A more minor one might let us do it if they could make it into an "event" they could publicize... The problem with this is that they would probably want a long lead time...
That's very generous. I live in North London so it's about 3 hours to Derbyshire. Not impossible on a weekend. As for country houses, we could research ones close to you (or somewhere between us). A more minor one might let us do it if they could make it into an "event" they could publicize... The problem with this is that they would probably want a long lead time...
In reply to LewisDale:
The kidnappee's room will be quite bare, so all we'll get out of it will be sheets I think. Everything else he'll have to take up with him. Also, time will be a factor here and while I may have to try it I think ripping up anything other than sheets could be very time intensive...
The kidnappee's room will be quite bare, so all we'll get out of it will be sheets I think. Everything else he'll have to take up with him. Also, time will be a factor here and while I may have to try it I think ripping up anything other than sheets could be very time intensive...
In reply to ring ouzel:
The window in a 4-story building, even a big old country house, would only be about 40-45 feet up, and you could get a 'rope' of about 48-50 feet out of 8 strips of sheet (i.e 4 torn once lengthways).
The window in a 4-story building, even a big old country house, would only be about 40-45 feet up, and you could get a 'rope' of about 48-50 feet out of 8 strips of sheet (i.e 4 torn once lengthways).
In reply to Pauline:
It's good to know this actually happens... I think I'd prefer a drainpipe because you'd be very visible climbing an external wall at the corner -- and of course like in any good sub Bond book there will be guards walking around...
It's good to know this actually happens... I think I'd prefer a drainpipe because you'd be very visible climbing an external wall at the corner -- and of course like in any good sub Bond book there will be guards walking around...
In reply to Joe Friedman: Although the wisteria may help to hide the climber and, if he has read his Ladybird Book of Spies, he'll know to climb on a moonless night, failing that at dusk which is when peoples eyes are at their worst.
Gordon is in Derbyshire and its stuffed full of big houses, Chatsworth for a start.
Gordon is in Derbyshire and its stuffed full of big houses, Chatsworth for a start.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Are you just itching to try this out as well Gordon? )
In reply to Joe Friedman:
If we were to meet up we could get you climbing some drainpipes too. I used to be quite good at that. There are some useful techniques e.g. using toe jams between the pipe and the wall ... all we need is a suitable house. Any volunteers?
If we were to meet up we could get you climbing some drainpipes too. I used to be quite good at that. There are some useful techniques e.g. using toe jams between the pipe and the wall ... all we need is a suitable house. Any volunteers?
In reply to ring ouzel:
Yes, quite frankly It could be a hell of a laugh too.
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth) Are you just itching to try this out as well Gordon? )
Yes, quite frankly It could be a hell of a laugh too.
You guys are all amazing! how cool that someone can ask a question likes this one and get so many people helping them out!
.....and Joe make sure we all get to read the book when its written.
Sam Orange
In reply to toadwork:
There's plenty of modern walls with decorative, burglar-friendly brickwork, out there.
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-19000838.rsp for example.
http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=quoin
The technical term for bricks sticking out at the corners is a 'quoin' - these are usually pretty easy to get up, and as long as there's a balustrade at the top or a handy window or balcony or even a sturdy gutter to shin along our hero should have no trouble getting up or down.
> (In reply to Joe Friedman) no, an experienced climber couldn't go up a modern wall
There's plenty of modern walls with decorative, burglar-friendly brickwork, out there.
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-19000838.rsp for example.
http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=quoin
The technical term for bricks sticking out at the corners is a 'quoin' - these are usually pretty easy to get up, and as long as there's a balustrade at the top or a handy window or balcony or even a sturdy gutter to shin along our hero should have no trouble getting up or down.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I'd like to know if sheets are strong enough and would be happy to weight one.
With a safety rope.
> Yes, quite frankly It could be a hell of a laugh too.
I'd like to know if sheets are strong enough and would be happy to weight one.
With a safety rope.
In reply to Swig:
Of course. But I am certain sheets are easily strong enough .. in fact I feel I've done this for fun once in the dim and distant past.
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
>
> [...]
>
> I'd like to know if sheets are strong enough and would be happy to weight one.
>
> With a safety rope.
>
> [...]
>
> I'd like to know if sheets are strong enough and would be happy to weight one.
>
> With a safety rope.
Of course. But I am certain sheets are easily strong enough .. in fact I feel I've done this for fun once in the dim and distant past.
In reply to Swig: Good Egyptian cotton sheets, as used in all the best houses, would certainly be strong enough. We have just bought some but I think my wife would kill me if I proceeded to rip them up, especially as we live in a bungalow!
In reply to dcturner:
Ta for this. Quoins. Good word. Also I see you have have quoins up the middle of the building...
Ta for this. Quoins. Good word. Also I see you have have quoins up the middle of the building...
In reply to ring ouzel:
I'm hoping for a long discussion coming up about the best knot to join torn sheets with.
I'm hoping for a long discussion coming up about the best knot to join torn sheets with.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Damn! I was about to post sheet bend. I'm too slooooow.
In reply to Swig: What colour Swig? I would favour neutral or white, not a fan or coloured cotton. Yourself? What colour for shinning up and down country houses?
In reply to Joe Friedman:
They're probably not quoins in the middle of a wall - quoins are definitely to do with corners. (And I don't have them anywhere on my hovel, which isn't anything like as grand as that one). 'Decorative brickwork' is as far as my vocabulary goes for a feature like that in the middle of a wall. You can see, however, that there's a fairly obvious route up the corner of that building, then a small leap onto the portico; round the back you can very easily get onto the rear balcony too using the quoins.
You see quite a lot of climbable features on modern buildings, if you use your imagination. One of the commonest is where bricks (or whole courses) are recessed or protruding.
Not that I speak from experience or anything!
> (In reply to dcturner)
>
> Ta for this. Quoins. Good word. Also I see you have have
> quoins up the middle of the building...
>
> Ta for this. Quoins. Good word. Also I see you have have
> quoins up the middle of the building...
They're probably not quoins in the middle of a wall - quoins are definitely to do with corners. (And I don't have them anywhere on my hovel, which isn't anything like as grand as that one). 'Decorative brickwork' is as far as my vocabulary goes for a feature like that in the middle of a wall. You can see, however, that there's a fairly obvious route up the corner of that building, then a small leap onto the portico; round the back you can very easily get onto the rear balcony too using the quoins.
You see quite a lot of climbable features on modern buildings, if you use your imagination. One of the commonest is where bricks (or whole courses) are recessed or protruding.
Not that I speak from experience or anything!
In reply to Joe Friedman:
Remembering if he is an experienced climber he could easily climb down and find something in the garden to help the girl down with, maybe even a ladder although I think this would be cheating. He could have hidden a rope, depending on the circumstances. He could use garden netting or weed sheeting or summit. The idea of chimneying down would be good, you could get some real climbing in as well as an heroic rescue with sheets and stuff. Any ordinary sheet, even cut quite finely would work well i think. It could also be used to help an essentially novice climber i.e, he could guide her down the best route, taking some weight with the 'rope' and arresting any falls!
Remembering if he is an experienced climber he could easily climb down and find something in the garden to help the girl down with, maybe even a ladder although I think this would be cheating. He could have hidden a rope, depending on the circumstances. He could use garden netting or weed sheeting or summit. The idea of chimneying down would be good, you could get some real climbing in as well as an heroic rescue with sheets and stuff. Any ordinary sheet, even cut quite finely would work well i think. It could also be used to help an essentially novice climber i.e, he could guide her down the best route, taking some weight with the 'rope' and arresting any falls!
In reply to dcturner:
Rustification (sp?) I believe is the term. They normally do not go above first floor though. Quoins obviously go the whole way.
Rustification (sp?) I believe is the term. They normally do not go above first floor though. Quoins obviously go the whole way.
In reply to Joe Friedman: some one mentioned a sling earlier, a belt or even a strong scarf could be used to fashion one.
Watch The Bourne Identity. There's a nice bit with Bourne down-climbing off a building. Just imagine it happening in reverse.
He'll need a rope which he can probably find in the grounds of the country house (boathouse?). He carries it up, lowers the girl down and then slides down the rope.
He'll need a rope which he can probably find in the grounds of the country house (boathouse?). He carries it up, lowers the girl down and then slides down the rope.
In reply to Joe Friedman:
If he did want to smuggle a rope in, how about wraping it over his shoulder and then across his body? Under a jacket this could work?
(Before you had to take you coat off at airport security this would fool Easyjet)
If he did want to smuggle a rope in, how about wraping it over his shoulder and then across his body? Under a jacket this could work?
(Before you had to take you coat off at airport security this would fool Easyjet)
As a climber and a builder specialising in the renervation of houses, I can probaly answer most of your questions. But wouldn't it make a much better storey if you stayed up there with her, once rescued you may never get rid of her!
Plastic pipes forget about, these became popular in the 1960's, so cast is before that, although today especially in the renervation market for listed buildings a wide range of cast pipes are still available, Normally the only window a pipe is close to would be the bathroom, Climbing the vine is a much better option. There is no way you are going to carry her down, even with a ladder this is a very difficult task. You could lower her but do you have a harness? A rope tied around the body will cause at least much discomfort and if not tied properly can cause suffercation. You would need a lowering device fixed to somthing in the room.
I still leave her up there.
Plastic pipes forget about, these became popular in the 1960's, so cast is before that, although today especially in the renervation market for listed buildings a wide range of cast pipes are still available, Normally the only window a pipe is close to would be the bathroom, Climbing the vine is a much better option. There is no way you are going to carry her down, even with a ladder this is a very difficult task. You could lower her but do you have a harness? A rope tied around the body will cause at least much discomfort and if not tied properly can cause suffercation. You would need a lowering device fixed to somthing in the room.
I still leave her up there.
In reply to Joe Friedman:
Has anyone pointed out the difference between a corner and an arete yet? I think what you are calling a corner ie. the corner on the outside of a normal square house, we call an arete. To a climber a corner is the opostite of that and would most likley be the least visible place to climb the wall.
> (In reply to Pauline)
>
> It's good to know this actually happens... I think I'd prefer a drainpipe because you'd be very visible climbing an external wall at the corner -- and of course like in any good sub Bond book there will be guards walking around...
>
> It's good to know this actually happens... I think I'd prefer a drainpipe because you'd be very visible climbing an external wall at the corner -- and of course like in any good sub Bond book there will be guards walking around...
Has anyone pointed out the difference between a corner and an arete yet? I think what you are calling a corner ie. the corner on the outside of a normal square house, we call an arete. To a climber a corner is the opostite of that and would most likley be the least visible place to climb the wall.
In reply to Joe Friedman:
Thanks again to everyone for your help... as the idea of trying out my idea using sheets seems to have died a death, can anyone recommend a climbing wall near me in North London where I could get people to show me what's involved in abseiling...
Joe
Thanks again to everyone for your help... as the idea of trying out my idea using sheets seems to have died a death, can anyone recommend a climbing wall near me in North London where I could get people to show me what's involved in abseiling...
Joe
In reply to Joe Friedman: The castle, green lanes, N16 - is that near?
In reply to Richard Sutton:
I'm afraid I didn't understand your point Richard.. I'm understanding the corner (where the quoins are) to be the place where the two wall meet -- the far sides of the square. What do climbers mean by corner?
Joe
I'm afraid I didn't understand your point Richard.. I'm understanding the corner (where the quoins are) to be the place where the two wall meet -- the far sides of the square. What do climbers mean by corner?
Joe
In reply to Simon Cahill:
Simon
She's really a nice girl... I'm sure you wouldn't leave her behind. What would be the simplest harness you could use to lower her -- remembering now we're using sheets instead of rope...
Joe
Simon
She's really a nice girl... I'm sure you wouldn't leave her behind. What would be the simplest harness you could use to lower her -- remembering now we're using sheets instead of rope...
Joe
In reply to Joe Friedman:
Yep, I don't think I'm currently a member though. I will have to check. I am also very near to there, but am rather lapsed in my climbing.
The main downside is that the place is rather expensive for a climbing wall and full of posers, but it is probably the best in London.
Yep, I don't think I'm currently a member though. I will have to check. I am also very near to there, but am rather lapsed in my climbing.
The main downside is that the place is rather expensive for a climbing wall and full of posers, but it is probably the best in London.
In reply to Mr S. Man:
Ta! I will try to get over there this week sometime, maybe Saturday afternoon, though that may not be the best time... Would people be there during the week -- say Wednesday afternoon?
Ta! I will try to get over there this week sometime, maybe Saturday afternoon, though that may not be the best time... Would people be there during the week -- say Wednesday afternoon?
In reply to Joe Friedman: There will always be people there, it's rather busy.
In reply to Joe Friedman:
The simplest harness would be made out of a pillow and a pillow cover to look like helicopter rescue harness pictured here: http://www.atlasreed.co.uk/resources/Rescue-Harness-Irvin-GQ.jpg
Couldn't you throw a rope across the fence/hedge/wall, surrounding the house and in the night sneak out to fetch it? Your idea suggest he'll have to sneak out of the house anyway...
Another option: does he need to do the climbing thing? He could lower himself off from above her room window on a rope made out of his sheets. There could be a roof window or some "high altitude" climbing action involved with going up onto the roof from his room. Or a bathroom?
Getting down is simple on the rope made of the sheets as mentioned by someone else (his and hers combined).
She could be lowered in the helicopter harness tied on one end of the rope - the other would be wrapped couple of times around a radiator to give sufficient friction so the hero is able to hold her weight.
He could then use it in the way showed in this video: youtube.com/watch?v=ao0A-5-87Kw&
If he can leave the rope there (to be discovered and engage a pursuit) he could simply tie one end to the radiator and do the classic abseil technique (first in the video) on a single piece of rope. Otherwise he'll need length of twice the height - you see why?
I can see the romantic idea of him carrying her down but that, done with the classic abseil technique, would be extremely painful if not impossible (need to try...). That said - the pain could make it more "romantic" and having sheets instead of a rope could give more friction and softer touch. And it's not real story so you could improve the reality a bit...
Please do send me the copy of the chapter for corrections. I don't know how a book looks before rewriting but I suppose I'd get the general idea and the important climbing bits.
Should you want to try something out outside - our East Grinstead Climbing Club (to east from Gatwick) would surely be excited to do some action on Southern Sandstone or any houses around Just bring the sheets along.
The simplest harness would be made out of a pillow and a pillow cover to look like helicopter rescue harness pictured here: http://www.atlasreed.co.uk/resources/Rescue-Harness-Irvin-GQ.jpg
Couldn't you throw a rope across the fence/hedge/wall, surrounding the house and in the night sneak out to fetch it? Your idea suggest he'll have to sneak out of the house anyway...
Another option: does he need to do the climbing thing? He could lower himself off from above her room window on a rope made out of his sheets. There could be a roof window or some "high altitude" climbing action involved with going up onto the roof from his room. Or a bathroom?
Getting down is simple on the rope made of the sheets as mentioned by someone else (his and hers combined).
She could be lowered in the helicopter harness tied on one end of the rope - the other would be wrapped couple of times around a radiator to give sufficient friction so the hero is able to hold her weight.
He could then use it in the way showed in this video: youtube.com/watch?v=ao0A-5-87Kw&
If he can leave the rope there (to be discovered and engage a pursuit) he could simply tie one end to the radiator and do the classic abseil technique (first in the video) on a single piece of rope. Otherwise he'll need length of twice the height - you see why?
I can see the romantic idea of him carrying her down but that, done with the classic abseil technique, would be extremely painful if not impossible (need to try...). That said - the pain could make it more "romantic" and having sheets instead of a rope could give more friction and softer touch. And it's not real story so you could improve the reality a bit...
Please do send me the copy of the chapter for corrections. I don't know how a book looks before rewriting but I suppose I'd get the general idea and the important climbing bits.
Should you want to try something out outside - our East Grinstead Climbing Club (to east from Gatwick) would surely be excited to do some action on Southern Sandstone or any houses around Just bring the sheets along.
In reply to pmagowan:
I wonder how much rope you could get in wrapped around your body perhaps. Surely get 20m of 9mm in that way which might pass a visual inspection if you wore a loose top
I wonder how much rope you could get in wrapped around your body perhaps. Surely get 20m of 9mm in that way which might pass a visual inspection if you wore a loose top
In reply to Joe Friedman:
Another harness if you have more sheets to spare:
http://www.rigtechnology.co.uk/detail.aspx?intP_ID=124
Simply fold the corners and tie them together ignoring the fourth one...
Another harness if you have more sheets to spare:
http://www.rigtechnology.co.uk/detail.aspx?intP_ID=124
Simply fold the corners and tie them together ignoring the fourth one...
In reply to Different Steve:
40m if combined with baggy trousers
And if he could smuggle a carabiner (fashionable belt buckle or a bling?) he could make a comfy harness out of sheets and they could both go down in a pleasant loving embrace! YAY!
40m if combined with baggy trousers
And if he could smuggle a carabiner (fashionable belt buckle or a bling?) he could make a comfy harness out of sheets and they could both go down in a pleasant loving embrace! YAY!
In reply to Joe Friedman: I wouldve thought the simplist way would be for him to climb up using gaps in the stone/brickwork where mortar has been worn down or alternatively to bridging up a corner. The simplest way down with a rope would be to anchor(tie) the rope to a beam/bed etc (something really heavy) and use a body belay to lower the girl down then abseil down himself using a classic abseil (pictured here http://www.cavediggers.com/vertical/6DESCENT.pdf )
for an alternate method of descent as previously mentioned the girl gould hold herself onto the males torso whilts a classic abseil is performed.
none of the methods mentioned in this post require any specialist equipment other than rope.
for an alternate method of descent as previously mentioned the girl gould hold herself onto the males torso whilts a classic abseil is performed.
none of the methods mentioned in this post require any specialist equipment other than rope.
In reply to Joe Friedman: He could always stick 2 bolts in and work the route over several days...
In reply to Joe Friedman:
Instead of a rope, how about wrapping her waist (and his?) in a very very long silk "scarf" type thing, tying it off, and "rolling" out.
MAgda in the film of Octopussly does this after stealing the Faberge egg back from Bond, and it's done a lot in period Hong Kong action films (The LEgend of Fong Sai Yuk etc)
Look on youtube for variations on circus, silk and acrobatics.
I 've only skim-read the thread but a few people seem to suggest that taking a rope into the building is too bulky for some reason. Silk is rather less bulky. Admittedly this is something that is great to watch but perhaps difficult to describe in prose.
Instead of a rope, how about wrapping her waist (and his?) in a very very long silk "scarf" type thing, tying it off, and "rolling" out.
MAgda in the film of Octopussly does this after stealing the Faberge egg back from Bond, and it's done a lot in period Hong Kong action films (The LEgend of Fong Sai Yuk etc)
Look on youtube for variations on circus, silk and acrobatics.
I 've only skim-read the thread but a few people seem to suggest that taking a rope into the building is too bulky for some reason. Silk is rather less bulky. Admittedly this is something that is great to watch but perhaps difficult to describe in prose.
In reply to Joe Friedman:
The beauty about tradition english houses is all the little features which can be climbed. A drainpipe is the obvious choice (cast iron...not plastic), the quoin stones rising up the corners of the house and doorways, windows, etc. could be utilised, any columns and pentice roofs could be adopted, timber work (in the case of a wattle and daub facades), the cills and heads of windows (on old georgian and victorian houses), chimney stacks, etc etc.
There's a good book by R.W. Brunskill, called Tradional Buildings in Britain which may give you a little more insight into facade types and materials.
I hope this is of use.
Regards,
Mikey.
The beauty about tradition english houses is all the little features which can be climbed. A drainpipe is the obvious choice (cast iron...not plastic), the quoin stones rising up the corners of the house and doorways, windows, etc. could be utilised, any columns and pentice roofs could be adopted, timber work (in the case of a wattle and daub facades), the cills and heads of windows (on old georgian and victorian houses), chimney stacks, etc etc.
There's a good book by R.W. Brunskill, called Tradional Buildings in Britain which may give you a little more insight into facade types and materials.
I hope this is of use.
Regards,
Mikey.
In reply to Anonymous:
Time to start a new thread on the ethics of bolting country houses to avoid this one going off topic.
> (In reply to Joe Friedman) He could always stick 2 bolts in and work the route over several days...
Time to start a new thread on the ethics of bolting country houses to avoid this one going off topic.
In reply to Joe Friedman:
There are alternatives to just lowering the girl down, some of your fellow Americans have done animal experiments to prove the feasibility.
youtube.com/watch?v=dulRY3fdeME&
Or how about making parachutes out of the sheets, or use the bed frame too and make a hang glider.
But if you really want to use a rope, might I suggest if it is a stately home set in a large estate, that the lad might borrow a couple of bell ropes from the chapel, or if it hasn't got a chapel the church in the nearest village. A chapel is likely to have only one or two bells, but a village church could well have six or eight bells, that would give you enough rope to make a death slide, much more fun than a classic abseil and they could even come down together. Sometimes the brilliance of my ideas even amazes me.
There are alternatives to just lowering the girl down, some of your fellow Americans have done animal experiments to prove the feasibility.
youtube.com/watch?v=dulRY3fdeME&
Or how about making parachutes out of the sheets, or use the bed frame too and make a hang glider.
But if you really want to use a rope, might I suggest if it is a stately home set in a large estate, that the lad might borrow a couple of bell ropes from the chapel, or if it hasn't got a chapel the church in the nearest village. A chapel is likely to have only one or two bells, but a village church could well have six or eight bells, that would give you enough rope to make a death slide, much more fun than a classic abseil and they could even come down together. Sometimes the brilliance of my ideas even amazes me.
In reply to Vojta:
Vojta
I may take you up on the offer of the East Grinstead Club. Though it will probably not be until September. I'll bring sheets and a camcorder -- I can see a great youtube video of this -- and of course, the publicity would help the book...
Vojta
I may take you up on the offer of the East Grinstead Club. Though it will probably not be until September. I'll bring sheets and a camcorder -- I can see a great youtube video of this -- and of course, the publicity would help the book...
In reply to Joe Friedman:
Joe, If you want to do your research properly, try to see what climbing buildings is like at night rather than playing around on climbing walls. It's a different kind of process: moving quickly without being noticed, requiring minimal equipment and very fast climbing. If your character has a chance to prepare for the "rescue", get him to put knots in a rope: his rescuee and he can then both climb down easily even if she isn't very strong, and a rope can be carried up strapped to his back like a rucksack. Climbing up to roof level on buildings is almost always straightforward, the greater difficulty is finding your way round once inside, or heading imedaitely for the right window. Attic windows, dormer or velux, are very easy to get into from a roof.
Joe, If you want to do your research properly, try to see what climbing buildings is like at night rather than playing around on climbing walls. It's a different kind of process: moving quickly without being noticed, requiring minimal equipment and very fast climbing. If your character has a chance to prepare for the "rescue", get him to put knots in a rope: his rescuee and he can then both climb down easily even if she isn't very strong, and a rope can be carried up strapped to his back like a rucksack. Climbing up to roof level on buildings is almost always straightforward, the greater difficulty is finding your way round once inside, or heading imedaitely for the right window. Attic windows, dormer or velux, are very easy to get into from a roof.
In reply to Richard Hall:
How would a teenager be aware of these tecniques? I mean - where on earth would they have learned them from? They would have to have an old and creaky climbing mentor who explained about them and demonstrated them at some point in the past...
> (In reply to Joe Friedman) You would lower someone using a stance like in the 3rd picture here, allowing the rope to slide slowly though your hands.
>
> http://www.psychovertical.com/?bodybelay
>
> Your character would have to take a firm, bracing stance.
>
> Will look for a picture to demonstrate the abseil, but it is a similar principle.
>
> http://www.psychovertical.com/?bodybelay
>
> Your character would have to take a firm, bracing stance.
>
> Will look for a picture to demonstrate the abseil, but it is a similar principle.
How would a teenager be aware of these tecniques? I mean - where on earth would they have learned them from? They would have to have an old and creaky climbing mentor who explained about them and demonstrated them at some point in the past...
In reply to Joe Friedman:
I must say that your young heronine sounds particularly wishy washy. Couldn't she be a bit more active in effecting her own rescue? All this helplessness, and clinging onto him and stuff - blimy - if she was that pathetic, I would leave her in the locked room!
I must say that your young heronine sounds particularly wishy washy. Couldn't she be a bit more active in effecting her own rescue? All this helplessness, and clinging onto him and stuff - blimy - if she was that pathetic, I would leave her in the locked room!
In reply to tlm: My father taught me, before I was a teenager.
In reply to nightclimber:
What about a length of dyneema tape? much thinner, lighter, and more easily concealed than a rope, but strong enough for a static load.
Small bights could be tied off at regular intervals like a daisy chain to provide hand loops and it could be climbed down like a knotted rope?
> (In reply to Joe Friedman)
> a rope can be carried up strapped to his back like a rucksack.
> a rope can be carried up strapped to his back like a rucksack.
What about a length of dyneema tape? much thinner, lighter, and more easily concealed than a rope, but strong enough for a static load.
Small bights could be tied off at regular intervals like a daisy chain to provide hand loops and it could be climbed down like a knotted rope?
In reply to johnSD:
He'd need hell of a lot of dyneema slings but it would be perfect - just like a rope ladder!
He'd need hell of a lot of dyneema slings but it would be perfect - just like a rope ladder!
In reply to Joe Friedman:
September is perfect because we'd have time to arrange necessary details, time off for the ones involved...
I'll present the idea on our tonight's social.
I wonder if local Scientologists would let us use their manor...
September is perfect because we'd have time to arrange necessary details, time off for the ones involved...
I'll present the idea on our tonight's social.
I wonder if local Scientologists would let us use their manor...
In reply to edg:
I'm glad to hear that this really happens. In my story, the boys father is a climber and they go climbing together whenever he's around -- he works on the rigs in Scotland. I also have a late friend -- who learned to climb in Scotland and was climbing quite precarious and vertical places when he was 14.
I'm glad to hear that this really happens. In my story, the boys father is a climber and they go climbing together whenever he's around -- he works on the rigs in Scotland. I also have a late friend -- who learned to climb in Scotland and was climbing quite precarious and vertical places when he was 14.
In reply to edg:
To do a classic abseil? And how old are you? I just can't imagine many teenagers knowing how to do a classic abseil. There would need to be some explaination of how they learnt such a skill (such as their father teaching them...) They wouldn't exactly learn it down the climbing wall these days, would they?
> (In reply to tlm) My father taught me, before I was a teenager.
To do a classic abseil? And how old are you? I just can't imagine many teenagers knowing how to do a classic abseil. There would need to be some explaination of how they learnt such a skill (such as their father teaching them...) They wouldn't exactly learn it down the climbing wall these days, would they?
In reply to Joe Friedman:
I learnt to classic abseil when I was 11 - but that was quite a long time ago now!!!! It is an old fashioned technique, that is all I meant. Why would a teenage boy learn an old fashioned technique?
I learnt to classic abseil when I was 11 - but that was quite a long time ago now!!!! It is an old fashioned technique, that is all I meant. Why would a teenage boy learn an old fashioned technique?
In reply to tlm:
Because he had an old fashioned father?... Are you saying people abseil in different ways now and that they would never have learned the classic abseil, or are you saying people wouldn't learn abseiling at all now given that they mostly use climbing walls?
Joe
Because he had an old fashioned father?... Are you saying people abseil in different ways now and that they would never have learned the classic abseil, or are you saying people wouldn't learn abseiling at all now given that they mostly use climbing walls?
Joe
In reply to Joe Friedman:
It would be more likely that a boy today would have learnt the classic abseil technique from an older climber. The classic abseil pre-dates the use of harnesses. It is still taught as part of a mountain (walking) leader qualification for "security on steep ground" but it is usually assumed that a climber will have a harness and at least one karabiner(rather than a walker with only a rope for assistance). In fact many modern climbers are unaware of quite how much can be done with just a rope or if aware have never practiced the techniques which an old-timer would have considered second nature. This isn't a criticism, they generally have no need to do so.
For your story you might also add that a classic abseil is NOT comfortable in fact in non-padded clothes it can be dowright painful, with a girl hanging on to you, (probably best to have her face to face with your hero looking over his shoulder at the potential fall) the rope would be cutting right into your hero's shoulder back and inside thigh. Real pain and lasting weals! but faint heart never won... Holding another's weight would be very strenuous but perfectly possible for a short classic abseil.
It would be more likely that a boy today would have learnt the classic abseil technique from an older climber. The classic abseil pre-dates the use of harnesses. It is still taught as part of a mountain (walking) leader qualification for "security on steep ground" but it is usually assumed that a climber will have a harness and at least one karabiner(rather than a walker with only a rope for assistance). In fact many modern climbers are unaware of quite how much can be done with just a rope or if aware have never practiced the techniques which an old-timer would have considered second nature. This isn't a criticism, they generally have no need to do so.
For your story you might also add that a classic abseil is NOT comfortable in fact in non-padded clothes it can be dowright painful, with a girl hanging on to you, (probably best to have her face to face with your hero looking over his shoulder at the potential fall) the rope would be cutting right into your hero's shoulder back and inside thigh. Real pain and lasting weals! but faint heart never won... Holding another's weight would be very strenuous but perfectly possible for a short classic abseil.
In reply to The Crow:
Or as an enterprising youngster looked up the technique in any public library and practiced beforehand... It's usually included for completeness in modern guides and of course any library usually carries books well past their publishing date.
> It would be more likely that a boy today would have learnt the classic abseil technique from an older climber.
Or as an enterprising youngster looked up the technique in any public library and practiced beforehand... It's usually included for completeness in modern guides and of course any library usually carries books well past their publishing date.
In reply to Joe Friedman:
Exactly. The techniques used in modern climbing wall lessons all assume that you would be using a harness and a belay device and karabiners.
I think that classic abseils as a standard technique probably disappeared in the 70s.
So it would be fine to have him using one, but it is probably then a good idea to put something earlier in the book about how/why he learnt and practiced how to do one. It would seem odd if he went to a climbing wall for lessons a couple of times and then did one....
I think the idea of getting people here to read it when you have written it is ace - there are so many details that if you are not a climber yourself, it will show in some way or another. Getting a climber to read it will avoid all that stuff!
> (In reply to tlm)
>
> Because he had an old fashioned father?... Are you saying people abseil in different ways now and that they would never have learned the classic abseil, or are you saying people wouldn't learn abseiling at all now given that they mostly use climbing walls?
>
> Because he had an old fashioned father?... Are you saying people abseil in different ways now and that they would never have learned the classic abseil, or are you saying people wouldn't learn abseiling at all now given that they mostly use climbing walls?
Exactly. The techniques used in modern climbing wall lessons all assume that you would be using a harness and a belay device and karabiners.
I think that classic abseils as a standard technique probably disappeared in the 70s.
So it would be fine to have him using one, but it is probably then a good idea to put something earlier in the book about how/why he learnt and practiced how to do one. It would seem odd if he went to a climbing wall for lessons a couple of times and then did one....
I think the idea of getting people here to read it when you have written it is ace - there are so many details that if you are not a climber yourself, it will show in some way or another. Getting a climber to read it will avoid all that stuff!
In reply to tlm:
That's very helpful.
As I say, it will be a while before the two chapters are finished but I'll offer them for climbing criticism when they are.
Joe
That's very helpful.
As I say, it will be a while before the two chapters are finished but I'll offer them for climbing criticism when they are.
Joe
In reply to Joe Friedman:
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this before, but search Google for buildering. This is a sport all about climbing buildings. There is loads of stuff out there and lots of videos.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this before, but search Google for buildering. This is a sport all about climbing buildings. There is loads of stuff out there and lots of videos.
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