UKC

...might have missed something elsewhere on here but does anyone know what happened to the Indecent / Body Machine tree? It's been chopped.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=07&year=2008#n45209

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:

Blimey! That is going to ruin three good routes!

Has it been completely chopped?

Alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Yes - I called in this morning, its been chopped to about 3ft in height, sometime on Fri PM / Sat AM according to Stone (I think thats what he said).

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC: I haven't been to Raven yet but I think its a little bit naughty to be chopping trees used as belays and not telling the BMC about it. I hope someone is going to lose an arm over it? or maybe just their job?

I assume it was a professional job (rope access etc) if so why didn't they think it was a little wrong?

In reply to anthonyecc:

It was never any good as a belay: it's a bit too low.

In reply to anthonyecc:

It ain't a belay, it is the first 5m of three of the best sport routes in the Peak - Body Machine, The Prow and Indecent Exposure.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC: Blimey! That is going to ruin three good routes!

The start had been climbed before at 7b and Zippy has I think established another diagonal start leading into Body Machine and beyond at 7b+.

It is hard to believe that a climber would have chopped the tree but it is also hard to guess at the motivation for a non-climber doing it either.

Is this likely to cause a backlash from Derbyshire Wildlife or similar ?

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC: Bloody stupid thing to do. A few people have asked me if I did it. The short answer is no I bloody well didn't.

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:

So if the proper starts are 7b and 7b+ this can only be a good thing - like removing the chockstone from that other route..... now what's it called?

The Ent

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:

After reading this shocking thread, I have just been down for a look.

I am absolutely gutted and appalled.

If this was climbers, this was an act of such crass, selfish stupidity, you deserve disowning by your peers.

If this was non-climbers, god knows what we have done to precipitate such destruction.

These vandals have destroyed some of the best limestone climbs in Derbyshire.

I hope they rot in hell and for their sakes, that their names never become known to those who loved that place and loved those routes.

I was one....

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:
It seems that the tree was cut between 9pm on Friday night and 6:40am on Saturday morning. We arrived at the crag (yes 6:40am) to see a blue golf or ford car (did not pay much attention) and two people, one of which ‘the driver’ was wearing a blue / purple puffer jacket. They looked like climbers to me. As we arrived they very quickly got into their car and drove off. Just after this I saw that the tree had been chopped and that the people who were in the car had made a small fire down by ‘Out of my tree’.
I’m not accusing these two climbers but it seemed pretty suspect to me. And the cut looked very fresh.
Id like to add that Im very angry that the tree has been cut, not because its imposable to do the start, but because its always covered in slime.

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

Two or three years ago I turned up at the Tor very early Saturday morning to find a few local kids 'camping' out. They'd cut the trees underneith Chimes (the one pictued in the Lime section of Ru's bouldering guide) and other routes down for a fire during the night. Perhaps this is a repeat performance, but then again I can think of easier to reach firewood in the vicinity.

A real shame the tree is gone...

In reply to Enty:
The start remains wet for a very long period, much longer than the rest. The start is slimey and horrible even when 'dry' the only reason them being done was boredom with the rest of the tor.
Its a stupid, stupid thing to of been done.

In reply to Derbyshire Ben:

This seems like the most likely explanation to me. What possible reason could climbers have for doing this?

This action has not only ruined some great routes, it's removed a piece of history. It would have to be an extraordinarily ill informed climber to not know this and even still the question would have to be "why do it?".

The fact that there's been a fire lit there is pretty decent evidence that that has been the fate of the tree. This points to non climbers, I hope.

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:

I am completely gutted. That's so awful!!!

Indecent and Body Machine were 2 projects of mine that I was working on this summer. I loved that tree. It had such character, and was so useful on bypassing the ever-present slime to access those brilliant routes!

I hope whoever did it comes forward to explain themselves.

The other reason It looked a bit suss is that there looked to be fresh chalk on the starting moves of indicant. Like some one hand done the direct start some how, and come to a decision to end the trees life at the tore. Like the tree was only there for those routes or something.
The fire wood was from a big tree. They were burning logs.

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:

Haven't been there in a while so memory's a bit poor but is the first bolt above the slime reachable with an average stick clip?

In reply to seagull: I'm sure it was not done for firewood because the whole felled tree is still lying next to the stump. I agree that the people who left in a hurry at 6:40am are urgently wanted for questioning to help with our enquiries! It does not sound like the bonfire party brigade because unlike previous raven tor bonfire parties they did not leave bottles and cans. The bonfire on Saturday was a very small one (40cm across) and this tree was a full grown ash tree 10m tall. I can not see how this could benefit anyone. The tree did not get in the way when climbing from the ground, it just gave the option of starting the climbs higher up, above the section that is normally wet. Also all the climbs were historically started from the top of the tree. Irrespective of any climbing considerations, cutting down big ash trees is just beyond the pale.

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax: I think it is important to clarify that people have been climbing from the ground for years an an alternative option to climbing the tree. The bolts and chalk from climbing up from the ground have been there for years. You can stick clip to get to these routes when it is too wet to climb the start (people did that this weekend) but that is hardly the point.

In reply to stone:

Ah, was going to ask if it was still there but assumed from the earlier posts that it had been burnt. I still can't understand why a climber would do this.

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:

Words fail me............

I'm absolutely gutted!!

Body Machine's my current muse, removing the tree just makes no sense...

.........

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC: I just don't know what to say, especially as it seems to be just wanton vandalism. Seems a bit specific though, as there are plenty of other trees to fell round there. I'm absolutely gutted.
I don't really care if you can climb direct/aid off a pre-clipped bolt, the tree at the start of Indicent was a proper part of the route. I ticked it a few years back, and (bouyed up by Rab's recent lead) was hoping to tick Body Machine in my 50th year.
There are piles of logs all along the valley from forestry work if anyone wants to have a fire, and plenty of dead fallen stuff too. As I said earlier, this is too targeted, and I hope the party are identified.
B***o**s.

In reply to seagull:


A completely selfish act, not just because of the damage to the routes, but also to cut a live tree for fire wood is just wrong. It sounds like it was an easy solution to a problem, instead of scouting around for dead wood.

Let's hope they get what's due.

In reply to Hugh J:

Has it been cut for fire wood?

A few posts up Stone said that the whole tree is still there.

Alan

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC: This is an act of sacrellige. This was probably the most famous tree in UK climbing and an essential experience at the Tor. What next, a chainsaw attack at Chapel Head (shudders at the thought).

Andy F

In reply to Alan James - UKC: This should be a news thread IMHO. Very bad news thread at that...

Andy F

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:

Bad news - that is a shame.

In a similar discussion on UKB someone suggested a rope ladder be a solution to avoiding the wet starts (most of the year). This doesn't seem such a bad idea, perhaps those via ferrata type metal rungs installed up to the point where summer seepage stops?

I guess this may be a little controversial but at least it would maintain the affected routes characters and avoid clip sticking/swinging round on first bolts when the direct starts are wet (I'm not sure, but isn't the seepage in that area a problem most of the year)??

BMC involvement/opinion??

In reply to andy farnell:

we are just trying to get some pictures together

Alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

The whole tree was still there and didn't appear to have been chopped for firewood.

I turned up Saturday afternoon (1st time in 15 years!) and couldn't believe my eyes.

Perhaps this is the Peak version of that tree incident in Ogwen many years ago!

Dom

In reply to richard kirby: I'm doubtful about a via ferrata because that would detract so much from the "from the ground" starts that are fairly popular when dry. It would also quickly become covered in wet slime as would a knotted rope or whatever. I think bringing a clip stick or asking someone else at the crag for use of one is probably the safest/easiest solution when the start is wet.

In reply to stone:
Maybe we should put up a thread asking the two guys who sped off on saturday morning to come forward. (man hunt)
The driver looked to be wearing a tall fleese hat too.

In reply to stone:

Hi Stone,
Stick clipping it is possible of course, but climbing up to the bolt when the rock is gopping will still be an issue. Even if you snap up the rope you (& especially your boots) will get covered in slime.

I still don't quite believe what's happened.

In reply to stone:
We could always Glue the tree back with some good old resin!!!

In reply to Jus: Someone care to point me to a picture of the original routes with tree? Please.

In reply to Frank4short:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3081/2576359834_38c86cb58c.jpg?v=0

Not sure how old the shot is.


Chris

In reply to Jus:

It also makes the start seem contrived to say the least......

I can't remember a climbing issue that's left me this apalled for a long time (maybe this is because I've a vested interest in one of the routes affected, who knows....).

In reply to Alan James - UKC: Ron will be especially gutted as this tree saved his life back in the day.

The BMC Peak Area meeting is at 8.30pm this Wednesday at the Travellers Rest between Buxton and Leek - I'll make sure the tree issue is on the agenda - feel free to turn up and have your say on this and other issues.

The BMC has done a fair amount of work on woodland and vegetation management at crags over the past few years. This includes crag clean-ups at places like Tremadog, Chudleigh and Hoghton plus the production of this leaflet - http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Download.aspx?id=153 - on habitat managment on and around crags. Theres a time and a place for these things however.

Personally I find it hard to believe that climbers would have done this without a pretty strong consensus amongst Raven Tor regulars that it was the right thing to do. This would seem to point towards non-climbers but who knows - hopefully time will tell.

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:


what deranged people would agree to it?...its utterly senseless!

In reply to Simon: It was very busy there on Saturday and everyone seemed to view the situation with utter horror. I have never heard anyone express any view about that tree being somehow undesirable and I lurk around there more than is sensible. My totally groundless guess was that it was climbers who did it but climbers who's aim (for what ever reason) was to piss off other climbers. The people who left in a hurry at 6:40am are prime suspects and their leaving in a hurry suggests that they knew that felling the tree would be very unpopular.

In reply to stone:
In that case I guess the question to ask those who mentioned projects on the routes affected is "Do you have any enemies?"
Seems unreal but maybe it's the only sensible explanation. Unbelievable.

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:


...or plant a new tree!

In reply to gobsmacker:


Which would be climbed and damaged before it was strong enough.

Or one of those wooden posts you get in kid's playgrounds to climb - wouldn't have the problems of something attached to the rock. Could even have a memorial plaque. :-o

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Any know what grade Indecent and Body Machine get with the direct start?

I think Zippy said 7c+ for Body Machine?

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC: aint the prow a trad line?

In reply to Jus:
So Indecent Exposure is now a solid 7b+ or 7c?

In reply to Sean_J:

Oh yes, either take the stump right out or place a bolt near where he is.

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax: As far as I understand you can start Indecent from the ground at no change in grade, you can also start Body Machine (at no change in grade presumably) here to follow indecent then traverse right. The direct start to Body Machine takes a diagonal line up from the tree stump to gain the start of the 'up' bit on BM (passing the top of Jehova Kill I presume) - I think this was given 7c+ if used as the start to BM.
This may or may not be correct though - probably best to consult one of the locals.
The obvious problem is that the Indecent start and the BM direct start tend to be wet and minging for much of the year.
HTH.

In reply to Aly:

Both starts are pretty dirty, with going direct up the vague groove currently even harder due to the pocket by the peg being wet. This pocket always seems wet nowadays - it was what you used to pull onto the rock with, lately people made another move up the tree.

The diagonal r-hand line into BM is pretty fingery (I did most of the moves on this last night) and will probably bump BM up to 7c+. Certainly Proud Whore, which is harder than BM would justify 7c+ (though it's not very typical of a Peak 7c+, as it's a pumpfest!)

Climbing up the groove for Indecent needs a closer brush/look, but it's certainly going to be significantly harder. I always though Indecent was 7b, so whether the whole thing is now 7b+ or 7c, I don't know.

This is all pretty academic though as for most of the year this area of rock will be covered in wet slime : -(

In reply to Tom Briggs:

Is it possible that whoever cut down the tree did so in the belief that it would help that section dry out quicker ?

In reply to Tom Briggs:

I know you said you tried the diagonal BM start last night, but is the whole of Indecent groove dry enough at the moment to give it a brush and have a go?

Now might be the only time if it is before it gets all slimy again.

In reply to Jus:

Nope. It is still very wet on the crux section, and will probably remain so for some time.


As for the notion - expressed in the original News item, then later corrected, and expressed again a few posts back - that these routes are still climbable at no change in the grade - dream on!


There are two quite separate issues with the two starts behind the ex-tree:-

1 - They are both almost permanently wet.

2 - Both starts are extremely fingery and not particularly pleasant, and climbing any of the old classics - Indecent, Body Machine, Prow, Cruxifixtion, Proud Whore etc - via either start, will up the overall grade by a one or two notches.

That is why this incomprehensible action is so very sad....

Neil

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

I was the person in the blue car your on about and first of all we had nothing to do with this tree being chopped down.
We arrived at ravens about 9 at night and the place was pretty busy with boulderers, we had a look round then headed to anglers rest where we stayed till approx 11 or 12 ish at night, we then tried to sleep under powerband area but it pissed down pretty much all night, we had gotten up around 5ish to find our gear was soaked my coat and jumper were soaked through from being under my sleeping bag. we then made a fire from a pack of logs we'd bought at petrol station as we couldn't find any meths for sale for cooker that late had a brew and tried drying some of our kit, before you had turned up we had packed most our kit away we tried drying off but decided we were gonna head to matlock for some food. We never left suspiciously like you speculate we were pretty pissed off knackered and wet. Throughout our time staying at ravens we never noticed it bit to be honest i would't have been looking. The tree must have been cut before we were there or after as we never heard anything except the pissing rain all night.
I've been climbing for over 20 years do you think i'm stupid enough to do something like chop a tree down and ruin classic routes??
next to my kids climbing is my biggest pashion, i doubt very much this was done by climbers come on really what would it achieve?
I'm pissed off you've fabricated the truth making me out as looking suspicious as if we'd done it' speculations like that can get people in trouble.
Like i have said i have nothing to do with this incident your barking up the wrong tree with me i'm afraid (no pun intended)
I seriuosly doubt very much it had anything to do with climbers at all

In reply to dylan burgess: I guess Dylan has narrowed the time window down to 9pm friday to 12midnight friday because it is hard to believe a 10m tree falling wouldn't wake them even in the rain. Does anyone know who was last to leave on Friday night?

In reply to dylan burgess:

Dylan

Your post was very interesting, though unnecessarily defensive!

We all know that Raven Tor is popular, particularly at weekends, but nonetheless, if a climber arrives at 6.40 am (!) to be met by another car rapidly leaving the scene, and later discovers that a heinous crime was perpetrated that night, it is hardly surprising if he then speculates that the vanishing car might have been involved.

The fact it was actually just you guys beating a retreat from an uncomfortable night under Powerband certainly explains it, and I can confirm it was a very wet night as I only live 5 minutes away.

What seems especially ironic is that on the very night these morons committed their wanton act, climbers – who are the natural guardians of this place – were not only present until later than 9pm, but arrived before 7am the next morning, and were actually present through the night as well! – albeit at the other end of the crag.

And still these idiots slipped under the radar and did the deed.

I will still endeavour to find out who the culprits were, but it looks increasingly to me as though someone with a grudge – perhaps against climbers or the crag, maybe as a result of inconsiderate parking – has snuck in during Friday night, possibly whilst you guys were in the pub, and destroyed some of the best limestone pitches in the Peak.

And all on a night when we had one of the most comprehensive watches ever. It’s just we didn’t know we needed a watch, or what we should be looking for….

Neil

In reply to Neil Foster:

Got to agree Neil, this has to have been the work of someone with a grudge against the crag or the peak scene. Very strange.

In reply to Neil Foster:

where are people getting the 'we left the scene rapidly' from? That is why i'm being defensive because the truth has been stretched to make me sound like i was leaving because of guilt. We never rapidly left the scene we never even slightly fast left the scene it was more of a o god i'm shattered i'll drive steady from the scene. we were completely oblivious to what had happened to that tree, and it definately wasn't cut while we were there cuz i couldn't sleep at all!

In reply to dylan burgess:

Why don't you try and help sort out this mystery instead of just proclaiming you had nothing to do with it?

You state that the tree didn't fall while you were there but you left when Daimon arrived and discovered the tree was down. This means that it definitely happened some time between 9pm and 6ish when you left.

Do you think the tree was felled while you were in the pub and that you didn't notice because you never went to that end of the crag?

Alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC: yes definately

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Sorry Alan, but if I'd just had my description posted on a website together with 'left pretty quicky when we arrived' and 'looked pretty suspicious to me' I'd be less than chuffed to little mint balls.

In reply to Ridge: thanks ridge.

In reply to Ridge:

Well I think several people have stated why the posts have been worded like that, and I think Dylan has done a semi-decent job of defending himself. What we are all keen on now though is finding out who did it and why.

Alan

In reply to Ridge:

Come on Ridge - keep up!

Have you actually read the posts since Dylan first posted? No-one is accusing him of any involvement...

Neil

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

I'm no expert, but that looks like a really smooth cut, that would be a real effort and quite skillful to do with a hand saw. Given you're now talking about a three hour time window do you reckon they had a chain saw? There doesn't seem to be a great deal of saw dust in the photos either.

There's no chance some boulderer wanted to do a traverse there is there? - that'd be daft wouldn't it as you're better off landing against a whole tree with your head and body than on a stump with your spine

In reply to Paz:

I'm no expert but that is definitely a hand saw cut.

alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Oh right. Chain saws go in at an angle and take out wedges, don't they? Or is that axes?

In reply to Paz:

Believe me, this was a hand saw. The pattern of the cut - curved scar-lines as the cutter changed angle of cut - and the narrow miss-cuts on the left-hand side of the stump indicate this. Chain saws leave wide chain-width scars if they miss-cut, and blast straight through leaving dead straight scars.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

How come all the curved lines then - it not like any saw cut I have seen?


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

The saw experts on the crag last night (yes, there was more than one!) knew the type of hand saw which makes that pattern. But it wasn't one I was familiar with, and after a quick google, I haven't come up with an image of what they were describing to me.

But it sounded as though it might have taken 2 people on the saw, with perhaps a third to push the tree over, so it didn't trap the blade once you got so far through the trunk.

Definitely more than one person has been involved, and it definitely wasn't a chainsaw. It would have taken some effort too.

I'm sure Tom and Dave will be along later with a lesson on saws...

Neil

In reply to Neil Foster:

Unnecessary vandalism yes but the climbs are not destroyed are they? Take a ladder!

In reply to Neil Foster: "later discovers that a heinous crime was perpetrated that night"

Was there a Murder or something????

In reply to Neil Foster: deep breath....

Entirely from the posted pictures:
looks like they used a bow saw. Most builders will have one of these about, plus anyone who does any firewood/gardening/ landscaping. Not a technical / specialist tool. It isn't a big tree by any stretch, so 20 minutes work for one person. At the most. Cut it straight through,so probably not a pro, probably wouldn't have trapped the blade as it looked like there was enough of a lean away from the crag. The tree will probably recover just fine as a coppice/ low pollard

In reply to drunken monkey:
Don't try to trivialise it. This was far more serious than a murder!

In reply to Luke90:

Absolutely. This is far from being my favourite crag (and yes, I've spent my fair share of time wobbling about on that tree.) But cutting it down is such a dreadful, ugly, senseless act. I shudder at the mentality of those involved.

Mick (in sadness)

In reply to Mick Ward:

I agree that it's a terrible thing to have happened but I don't think we can be certain that it was done with malicious intent.

In reply to Neil Foster:

This is starting to sound like an episode of CSI! I hope the culprits are tracked down from their little calling card, then prodded with it.....vigourously. If not perhaps the tree could be made into a clipstick to be kept at the crag so future generations may be touched by its treely appendage.

In reply to Luke90: Surely this = some new route potential. Everyone should stop greetin, and get down there first!

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC: from the photo of dave and tom climbing, the stump like it could cause some serious rib injury if someone came off low down doing the direct start...

In reply to drunken monkey:

If you had read the other posts above you would have realised that this line has been climbed from the floor many times. However it's shit and always wet. If you had ever climbed this line you would realise how bad this situation really is

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:

Like many folk I'd been up that tree on countless occassions in the past to get onto the crag. But whether with the help of a saw or with old age trees come down.

Hopefully this is just a one off and not part of serial slaughter of helpful trees to climbers around the country.

Probably best now to resin in a small bolt ladder to the old start point that way it would allow when dry those who want to free climb to the same point.

Perhaps we should keep a watchful eye on the other classic trees. Android at Chapel Head and North Crag Eliminate at Castle Rock spring first to mind but I'm sure ther's lots I've forgotten.

In reply to Theclimbinglab: I'll be honest, I've never climbed there, and I've no intention of ever climbing there, but I cant see what the HUGE hoo-ha is about, when you need a tree to do this/these route/s. Like someone else has said, its bad that someone has decided to end this poor trees life prematurely, but it would have fallen down eventually.

Anyone fancy a wake in rememberance?

In reply to d8vehinton: "Probably best now to resin in a small bolt ladder to the old start point that way it would allow when dry those who want to free climb to the same point."

Is this a windup??

In reply to Alan James - UKC: and I think Dylan has done a semi-decent job of defending himself.

Semi-decent ? Does this mean his arguido status hasn't been officially lifted ? Whilst the McCann's might benefit from the investigative resources and eyes for detail of UKC the whodunnit in this matter should in reality be a matter of mild curiosity only and the loss of the tree should felt no more acutely than the loss of a squillion hectares of Amazonian rainforest -though it did provide an experience as close to tree-hugging as many climbers will ever get. Changeophobia is regularly dressed up as historical (whatever that means) preservation but to my mind if it hasn't messed up access to the Tor then any more than a 48 hour mourning period is indulgent. Lets move on - I'm looking forward to having a go at the start/s which will breathe new life and interest in these old routes.

I am as saddened as the next man about the loss of the tree, having climbed it too many times over the last 20 years, it feels like losing an old friend. I hope the culprit is never identified as it will save me getting done for giving them a savage beating...

I do however have to disagree with the rubbish about the starts from the floor being shit and always wet. While the always wet possibly does apply to the direct start, Zippys start to Body Machine can be surprisingly dry at odd times in the year. When i did it last year i thought it added quality as well as difficulty to Body Machine. It was not overly fingery or sharp and it made a change to be climbing unpolished rock at the Tor.

In reply to Neil Foster: Looks like a wire saw did it to me, the ones the Ray Mears types carry.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

That's not a bad suggestion, a rustic ladder, just the right size and kept under the overhangs until needed. Could be knocked up by some handy type.

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs: As a potential solution that is not so much of an eyesore, could a log with 'steps' cut into it not be used. It could then just be propped up when required. They use them over here at Shipley in the Blueys to protect a native plant that grows round the bases of a few of the routes. Doesn't need to be that thick so won't weigh a ton.

In reply to Carnage:
I've heard that there's just such a handly log currently lying around at the bottom of the crag.

In reply to Luke90: I heard it got burnt by some lads trying to shelter out of the rain

Just a reminder that this is on the menu for discussion at the BMC Peak Area meeting at the Travellers Rest, Quarnford at 8.30pm tonight. All welcome.

In reply to Simon Lee:
Stangely enough I do see comparisons here with a certain chockstone incident - people have got so used to cheating that they no longer see it as such.

I'm not sure if the suggestions above to create a bolt ladder or via ferrata are genuine or not - but they are ridiculous
(Mind you, seeing as how I'll never get up any of the routes on Raven Tor - can we have a VF all the way to the top please)

The main issue here is that someone, almost certainly a current or ex-climber, has taken it up themselves to go around chopping down trees as they see fit.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

>The main issue here is that someone, almost certainly a current or ex-climber,

Not necessarily.. it could've been some locals wanting to take the piss.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

I can see how this may appear to those who have never climbed there, however I can assure you that once you have done these routes, the significance of the tree is much more apparent.

These are routes that many climbers do - some on each visit, others several times a year and others once in their lifetime, but the routes get climbed and enjoyed because they are the best routes of their grade in the Peak.

Without the tree that will no longer be the case. The lower section will be unclimbable for much of the time. When it is climbable it will be dirty and unpleasant. Those who used to do the routes on each visit won't be able to, and there aren't many alternatives at the crag. Those who aspired to do them will be frequently foiled by conditions.

The suggestion of a ladder of some description, be it fixed to the highest bolt or just stored at the crag, is not as daft as it sounds. It is just climbers trying to think of some system to recreate the superb climbing experience offered by the routes which used to start up this tree. A climbing experience which has now been taken away.

Imagine someone dumping a load of cow shit at the bottom of your favourite grit solos, cow shit which you couldn't control the appearance of. In such circumstances you would probably put down some big planks of wood in order to get on the rock. It is a poor compromise but at least the route is preserved. That is the case here. The analogy isn't perfect since the slimy rock is on the crag in this case, not the ground, however for most climbers the route didn't start at the base of the crag, it started when you stepped off the tree.

Alan

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC: I cant believe what I'm reading! Just because some tree has been chopped, some people are advocating BOLTING A LADDER to make the starts easier???

Why dont we bolt the whole place and be done with it?? Totally ridiculous.

In reply to drunken monkey:

The whole place is virtually totally bolted.

A bolt ladder, for aid and free climbing, is a good idea.

For those in the know, how many bolts would it take?

In reply to Alan James - UKC: There is no chance that the tree not being there will improve the condition of the lower section of the wall then?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Would a movable ladder (aluminium so it wouldn't rust), attached to the rock yet able to be swung away if someone did want to do the crud covered start, be a viable option? I know it's not the tree and takes away that wobbly first move onto the rock, but it could be a solution...

Andy F

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Could you not make some form of ladder from the tree which has been cut?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I think he's taking the piss. Nicely done.


At least I hope so.

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC: I hope the important discussion on what to do about pegs in the Peak doesn’t fall by the wayside so we can all take turns to express outrage at the mindless act of a maverick lunatic. It's an unfathomable and stupid thing for someone to have done, but I doubt any discussion will either bring the culprit to justice or prevent loons from taking maverick action in the future.
It’s like the discussions about acts of chipping that go on at BMC meetings. What’s the point?! Chippers are by nature mad as badgers, don’t go to BMC meetings and don’t abide by decisions made at them.
Idiots do stupid things and no amount of discussion by committees will affect that. Rather we should be getting to the bottom of something we can do something about i.e. the peg situation.

In reply to Richard Bradley:

There is a slight chance that the wall might dry out quicker, but to be honest the reason why it's slimy is due to cronic seepage - not a bit of shade.

In reply to drunken monkey:

Erm, have you even been to the Tor?

In reply to Richard Bradley:


No.
It wasn't a substantial tree in that it didn't have many branches and therefore didn't block out the sun. The wet conditions are due to seepage from within a very substantail lump of limestone and don't clear up easily. Even a blow torch would only keep the seepage at bay for a few minutes i expect.

In reply to The Purple Pimpernel:

Thermally decomposing the rock whilst drying it out...

Not a good plan.

Andy F

In reply to The Purple Pimpernel: Could try to fill the seepage points with resin to divert the water elsewhere. It worked on the Revelations pocket, although it did make the hold a a lot worse. I guess it depends on how discrete the seepage points are.

In reply to Alan James - UKC:
I know what you are saying, but there is an issue here about changing routes so that they are of consistent difficulty and quality - it's an argument which has been used to justify chipping in the past

If we're going to start equipping crags so as to overcome awkward starts, can I request a ladder is left underneath Verandah Buttress ?

Yes I know it's a poor analogy

I can't see a ladder surviving very long - quite apart from the visual aspect it would be nicked in no time. So maybe a bolt ladder would be the best approach

In reply to Jus: If you read the whole topic, you'll see that I have stated that I've never climbed there, and have no intention of climbing there. But I still find it quite amusing the massive furore over this. With people suggesting BOLTING fricking ladders, because the starts are a wee bit dirty!

In reply to drunken monkey:

So in otherwords you are completely clueless about the whole issue.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell: Why? I think its all quite clear for all and sundry to see. Even via the internet.

Anyway, i'm off to bolt a ladder on the TD gap. Its getting a bit shiny and difficult nowadays.

In reply to drunken monkey: Sigh...

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

Clearly.

But the ignorant are allowed to comment just as the informed.

Hopefully readers can differentiate between the two.

In reply to drunken monkey:

Your post is unnecessary - it is completely obvious you have never climbed there.

And though you are certainly entitled to your opinion, it will only ever be based on your own imagination and speculation. In this particular case, because this crag suffers from very unusual conditions, such speculation falls way short of what is needed to make a rational informed comment...

Neil

In reply to Neil Foster:
I Second that Neil!

In reply to Neil Foster:

Thirded - this is the typical knee jerk reaction to an obvious issue relating to climbing by the great ill informed that gives this site a bad name.

In reply to Duncan Disorderly:

I'll pick up on this Duncan.

Unfortunately to some, this is not an 'obvious issue', for both good and bad. To many it is and for very good reasons.

You'll have to accept that as climbers we have different values, experiences and knowledge, and our attitudes are molded by them. We aren't all on the same page.

The forums at UKClimbing.com express these differences (not the site as a whole). It sometimes isn't pretty.

Most, as seen by the responses to drunken monkey above (and those that don't post), can comprehend this.

Hopefully that poster will also learn that to many this vandalism is heart breaking, again for the reasons written above.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Oh my...What have I done. I realise that the removal of this tree has made life difficult for people climbing these routes.

I'm not trying to upset/wind people up. I've no interest in this crag/route.

I'm just dumfounded that people feel the need to discuss bolting ladders to replace a tree so you can gain what?? 10ft max?

Anyway, I'll leave you all to it. Good luck.

In reply to drunken monkey: Its not about 'gaining' anything, its about salavaging/preserving some of the experience and history of the original method of starting these routes, which will now, with the start in its often wet/slimey/minging/unsecure state will detract from what awaits above, which as Neil pointed out earlier are some of the best routes at the grade on Peak Limestone.....thats why people care & would like an alternative to the now deceased tree.

In reply to all:

I've used the tree plenty of times to start (although never finish!) Indecent and am saddened to see that it has been chopped. However, I do think bolting a ladder to the start is a daft idea because it would look very unsightly from the road and I can see why Drunken Monkey is thinking WTF?

Another less unsightly option could be a caving ladder, bolted to the base so it couldn't be nicked that could be stick clipped to the old start and removed when stripping the route rendering it invisible to passers by, anglers etc.

Never been to this crag, but have been reading this thread out of mild interest/boredom. Can i just say that when someone says "bolt ladder" I think of a line of bolts that you can ascend using slings. I get the impression that some (and apologies if I'm wrong) think that people are suggesting bolting an actual ladder to the rock, and this may be causing more arguments than necessary!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
OK, I'll bite

I have never climbed on Raven Tor, but I am well aware of the importance of the crag and of these routes in British climbing, though I have to admit I never realised that a tree was required for an ascent.

Yes I understand the outrage at this vandalism, and the sense of loss

However some of the suggestions raised do seem like vandalism in themselves. And just because we don't climb there, does that mean we shouldn't voice concerns about such actions?

Bear in mind how close this crag is to the road - the actions of climbers here are very visible

In reply to drunken monkey:

I quite like this one too: 'The loss of this tree is an incredibly sad development'...

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Oh yes it is. The phrase 'laughing-stock' comes to mind. Please mister, I cannae do the hard bit, can I get a wee ladder up to the easy bits?

Is it possibly the work of a pissed-off angler?

Is this the Brit climbing ethic going down the drain??

In reply to Chris the Tall: Hi, I'm gutted about the loss of the tree but firmly in the WTF camp regarding the ladder idea. I completely understand why climbing up the tree was a more aesthetic experience than aiding up to the same place but I'm baffled why climbing a ladder would be. Raven tor is covered in bolts and so the shameless (which includes almost anyone who goes there) can aid any which way across it avoiding slime patches at will. I've not done the "from the ground" version of indecent but have done the "from the ground" body machine start which I kind of enjoyed (despite cutting a fingertip on it). Until a couple of years ago the tree did not reach so high and so the starting place was on rock which now stays as wet as the diagonal "from the ground" body machine start. I think the dire seepage situation is a fairly recent phenomenon. Seepage lines seem to move around like river channels in an estuary. I think that patch of slime will just have to be tolerated until the cracks deep in the rocks get silted up and the the water starts to ooze out of some other classic route, hopefully with a nearby tree!.

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:
Obviously shabby vandalism by whoever-climber, disgruntled non-climber or plain and simple vandal. This must be discouraged as it would be shameful for people to think it ok to cut other trees.
However, let's face it, it was going to happen naturally at some point just like the chapel head branch will go soon. The rock parts of the routes starting up the (ex-)tree have changed over time due to polish and holds falling off/ changing and we accept that.

However we've now got various options including: 1 a bolt ladder at old grade 2)two harder starts which are condition dependent 3) ab in from trees at the top-this has some symmetry with a sea-cliff route at high tide : ) (or from an adjacent route) 4) re-plant a tree for the long term 'benefit' of climbers-sturdy oak perhaps?

Let's move on and embrace the new but damn anyone who copies the act.

Matt

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Chris - and the other "outraged of Milton Keynes" posters - you really shouldn't worry yourselves!

No-one is seriously suggesting installing a via ferrata on Raven Tor. People have tossed ideas around on this thread, but that's all they are - ideas.

The regular Raven Tor habituees would be just as effective at preventing such a move, if someone tried. But no-one will, so they won't need to bother, and you don't need to worry.

But what does remain troubling to those who regularly climbed these classic routes is that aiding your way up a bolt ladder (by bolt ladder, I mean protection bolts, which could be clipped with a stick - and therefore no different to other routes here) with plastic bags over your rockshoes (and that is what you would need to do, since the gunge which covers this wall for 10-11 months of each year is sadly not merely water), just wouldn't be the same.

That is why people are upset.

That is why people are trying to think of acceptable, sustainable alternatives.

Neil

In reply to Matt Clifton:

If we can cure the seepage we'd be sorted.

In reply to everyone:

I get the sense that a lot of people here don't know what a bolt ladder is; they seem to be under the impression that it's a ladder bolted to the rock (which of course would be ridiculous here).

In reply to WillinLA: I'm still not sure what is meant here. In Yosemite I've aided up those bolt ladders with bolts 1m apart so you can get up without using the rock or a stick. I can't see a benefit of such a thing at the start of indecent anymore than I can see a benefit in a real ladder bolted to the rock. Either would become slimy and get in the way of the free climbing when that is dry and in any case it is possible to stick clip up there or up the clean dry rock to the right as it is. The loss of the tree is a big loss to climbing just as the Bonatti Pillar falling down was or those classic Pembroke routes falling down. I just think we should now just let it be and not make it worse.

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

>Imagine someone dumping a load of cow shit at the bottom of your favourite grit solos, cow shit which you couldn't control the appearance of.

As opposed to the type of cow shit you can control the appearance of ?? What are you on about ?

>The suggestion of a ladder of some description, be it fixed to the highest bolt or just stored at the crag, is not as daft as it sounds.

Yes it is as daft as it sounds and a solution to something that isnt even a problem. It doesnt need a ladder or anything other than a bit of frigging or stick clipping (an art well practiced by most sport climbers) to get past the start if it is wet or you want to start at the same point where you used to step off the tree.

In reply to Peter Bradwell: Are you absolutely insane, have you ever tried cutting anything with a wiresaw? it would take a week to cut a tree that big with a wiresaw!

In reply to Matt Clifton:

Funny isn't it: we get all worked up over the odd tree being felled at some cliffs yet equally outraged if natural succession starts shading routes out amidst call for them to be cleared?

In reply to thustler:

Srry I was just enjoying the cluedo aspect and broght up saws , but even I know wiresaw's are only good for cutting Cheese!

In reply to Paz: Yeh sorry I probably overreacted, after rereading your thread I think I can detect a hint of sarcasm

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC: is it just a coincidence that the last people at the crag were boulderers?

In reply to Neil Foster: I keep coming back to this thread and shaking my head and feeling sickened that someone would do this. I aspire(d) to climb Indecent and have every intention of getting strong enough to do so. Talk about pissing on people's dreams.

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC: Perhaps a small via ferrata would be appropriate?

In reply to thustler: A weeks a bit of an exaggeration, but maybe between 9pm and 6am. If you look at the picture you'll see a total lack of consistency in the cuts made by the saw, no rigid bladed saw would do this, all the cuts are roughly semicircular as though somebody was sitting at the rear using a wire saw.

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC: What was said at the BMC Meeting last night?

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:


The BMC are going to hire a Cherry Picker until such time as an escalator can be fitted to the base of the crag.

In reply to Peter Bradwell:

What sort of tree was it - out of interest?

In reply to Anonymous:

One of those Thora Hird Stanage Stairlifts?

*disclaimer* - I know it's a piece of history and people are upset!*

In reply to Bulls Crack:

About 4c on a dry day

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Think it was an Ash tree, from what I remember.

In reply to craig h:

I had a little ash tree
But nothing would it bear
But a skinny climber
Near Sheffield, there.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

I think someone last night said it was Ash - definately not Sycamore

One of the proposals that came up last night was to investigate the source of the seepage - Neil Foster reckons that there has been significant changes in the amount and nature of the seepage and wondered if changes at the farm above may have caused this.

Apparently the Derbyshire caving group has a few hydrologists on tap (a terrible pun) who may be able to help

Yours sincerely
Outraged of Milton Keynes

Are we any closer to finding the perpetrators of this act?

Is there any kind of 'formal' investigation on behalf of the BMC/UKC/other?

In reply to Anonymous:

Can't see trying to dust the tree for fingerprints being a useful exercise: "You've got some explaining to do, Mr Fawcett"

In reply to Anonymous:

I'm sure there is.. Better start warming up the tar and stocking feathers, plus naturally sharpening the pitchfork...

In reply to Chris the Tall:

I must admit that I was quite shocked last night when Neil and I popped in at Raven Tor before the BMC meeting. Not so much by the tree, which I was prepared for, but by the state of the seepage which is so much worse than it ever used to be.

The route Ayatollah used to be the 6c+ warm-up. It now has 2 inch thick of moss growing over its lower section. The point where I pulled onto Indecent when I did it a (longish) while ago is still completely wet (in July) and you couldn't possibly have pulled on there before the tree was chopped. All the routes to the left of the ex-tree are currently unclimbable.

The solution of stick-clipping your way onto the route is also pretty much a non-starter. The line below the route is just such a mess that even with plastic bags on your feet, you are going to end up absolutely filthy by the time you get on the route. There is a dry pillar to the left that could have frigging bolts added to it, but it will not be climbable at a reasonable grade and it is likely to be wet for a lot of the year anyway even though it is dry now.

Because of the current seepage the removal of this tree is made even worse. These routes simply won't get climbed any more. People just aren't going to bother with the faff of frigging up the lower wall.

Very sad indeed. I think a wooden ladder stored under the crag is probably the best solution. However it will probably be nicked, and it will need to be a very long ladder.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC:


Bolt-ons + stick clip?

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

If the tree is still there can't the log be trimmed a bit, then propped up at an angle and fastened at each end somehow. Shouldn't be too hard and you'd still climb the tree to get on the routes.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Don't even dream about bolt ons at the Tor!
Like everybody I am aghast at the loss of the tree. (It had those wonderful foot marks that we had all worn into it and was part of the history of climbing -- like many others I had known it since it was young!)
It is just possible that I did the last tree incorporated ascents of Indecent and Body Machine on the Thursday - I treasure the memory.
The routes will be climbed -- yes there is horrendous gloop on them but you can clean your boots from the bolt for goodness sake!
Also the 7b+start to Body Machine is excellent and the actual holds are dry even when the route looks wet. Body Machine becomes 7c+ and Proud Whore probably stays the same at 7c+? I prefer this start to these routes to the original.
Indecent will be spoilt for ever as starting from a bolt is not the same as from that wonderful tree.
Having thought about it for days I think the sad likelihood is that it was probably climbers.

In reply to John Hart:

"Having thought about it for days I think the sad likelihood is that it was probably climbers."

On what basis?

Think about it, who is going to have a saw with them? Carrying a saw suggests it was a premeditated act. Why would a climber make a route harder or more awkward? The tree was hardly 'in the way' of the routes - (the traditional reason for 'gardening').

Maybe boulderers might do it (!), but given the seepage of the rock and the nasty stump which remains, you would think that a) the rock is not worth bouldering on, and b) they'd have cut the stump nearer the base to prevent spinal impalement.

I'd say that a pissed of angler might have done it, or some local youths or kids from the Youth Hostel - simply cocking about. In fact, given the rarity of Youth Hostelers and/or anglers going around armed with a saw, local kids might be the most likely culprit - I mean didn't the school holidays start last Friday (for some schools)?

I personally think it is unlikely a climber did it. I know I commited acts of mindless vandalism (including tree-sawing and arson) as a kid, bored with the summer holidays. I dare say little has changed since my youth.

In reply to Anonymous:


Why that particular tree though? It is very specific.

Could you also register at UKClimbing.com?

Cheers,

Mick

In reply to John Hart:

Fear not, John! No-one is seriously suggesting that.

Indeed any form of in situ solution is a non-starter, as far as I can see.

But whether we can stash a wooden ladder, or some such thing, just so you can lean it against the crag to bypass the (almost) perpetual wetness, then that might be more realistic.

Last night, in the humid conditions, the properly wet patch reached all the way down to the ground....

Neil

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Only if you know its history. Otherwise it's just a tree - if enough random kids chop down enough random trees then sooner or later they'll pick one that's important to someone.

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:

Ok, so i have not been there or read the whole thread so it might have been mentioned but might the removal of the tree allow the crag to dry out? More sun and wind should be able to get to the rock (depending on the orientation of the crag).

Just a thought.

In reply to KarlH:
That thought was mentioned and the consensus seemed to be that it probably wouldn't make much difference.

I don't buy the random kid chopping down a random tree hypothesis. It is a fair way away from where anyone lives and you have to go past more obvious trees even if just walking from the road let alone from Buxton or where-ever. The anglers always seem extremely friendly towards the climbers. I think some of the Litton Mill residents may be on a mission to get parking neatened up at raven tor. One of the anglers said he got a parking ticket in the raventor laybye after complaints to the police from Litton Mill residents that if a fire engine were rushing to Litton Mill then the raven tor laybye might be needed as a passing place around cars traveling along the road! However some kind of obnoxious climber seems more likely to me than a disgruntled resident.

In reply to John Hart:

I'm impressed by the depth of feeling you have towards sports routes - however famous/historic; I've never managed to attach that much emotion to them. But, that being said, the routes are still there. I can't even remember the tree on Indecent when I was on it - unlike great trad trees I've known - Android, North Crag Eliminate etc.

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Allow me to make a radical suggestion which worked well at Beaume Rouse why not fix some bolt ons to reach the "proper start" trying to emulate as much as possible the awkward step off the tree!! I am preparing myself for the inevitable howls of rage!

In reply to Grimpeur ancien:

John Hart may not be happy.

See above:



Who in their right mind would put resin bolt ons on a natural cliff!!!!!!!!!!

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

An other option would be one of these http://tinyurl.com/6fs6kv

Kill 2 birds with 1 stone, provide an alternative timber start, and prevent any further damage to the adjacent trees!

In reply to Alphin:

Looks like a siege tower - wouldn't that blow the onsight?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

>Who in their right mind would put resin bolt ons on a natural cliff!!!!!!!!!!

Nigel Slater and Nic Sellers spring to mind as doing something similar. As for the natural cliff bit -the crag is half limestone/half sica already. In any case the starts have been free climbed already so its all a bit academic.

>John Hart may not be happy.

So whats new ? (Hi John)

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Didn't you sika one onto Love Sculpture at Yew Cogar? Or is that just a vicious rumor?

Hi Ian,

Don't think so, but it would be there for when you did blow the onsight and adopt different techniques

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

err..some might ask why put resin bolts on a natural cliff?

ladders is your best bet - makes he start almost trad!

In reply to Bulls Crack:
Combined tactics are the way forward; a rickety human pyramid of Al Austin, Rab, Zippy, and Simon Lee. Might just support the weight of Ru...

In reply to Boy:

Yes of course I did.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I really think that a ladder is the best option! wooden or metal. Or get a professional to remove the tree completely and put something in its place. Maybe speak to the national park people or who ever owns it, see what they think.
Still would like to here what happened at the meeting.

In reply to Alphin:

You're probably right - I blew the onsight about twenty years ago and had to redpoint!

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

Like a memorial?!

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:


A sawn-off telegraph pole?

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

To repeat one of my earlier posts:

One of the proposals that came up last night was to investigate the source of the seepage - Neil Foster reckons that there has been significant changes in the amount and nature of the seepage and wondered if changes at the farm above may have caused this.

Apparently the Derbyshire caving group has a few hydrologists on tap (a terrible pun) who may be able to help

In reply to Chris the Tall:


You'll be wanting hydro-geologists though not hydrologists, if investigating seepage, etc.

In reply to Anonymous (please identitfy yourself):
The suggestion came from a caver who implied they have much experience in this area - sounds like a common problem and not impossible to resolve.

Would certainly rather see the BMC fund that sort of an inquiry than hire a private investigator to find the tree-fella

From what Neil said, entire routes have been lost to mucky seepage (Ayatollah being one), so it's not just the start to Indecent Exposure

In reply to Chris the Tall:
I'd like to see the BMC fund better initiatives than that. Can we not put the seepage down to global unwarming and move on?

In reply to kidcakes:
And before you take me too seriously - my funding candidate would be to investigate seepage at Cheedale cornice

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC: The best solution to the problem of gaining the old start point has got to be by climbing up the rock! If this is a given might it be worth hiring some jet washing kit, thoroughly cleaning the crud off the lower section and attempting to block/divert the seepage outlets? If successful this could greatly extend the period of the year in which the bottom stays dry.
It might seem a radical solution to drill out and resin fill the outlets, but this is a sport crag with hundreds of drill holes and a lot of resin on it already and this situation is a rather exceptional case. If done carefully the visual impact would be minimal.
Even without the filling I think the jet washing would be beneficial and fairly quick and cheap to implement.

In reply to Boy:
Good point well made - if my car is parked up underneath can you get that too?

In reply to Boy:
My only concern with sealing the seepage outlets is that the water behind them is still going to have go somewhere; we might just shift the problem elsewhere.

In reply to Boy:

Although there will be a further implication from altering the drainage pattern.


We should not take altering drainage patterns for our own reasons lightly.

Regards,
Chris.

In reply to Serpico:

You beat me to it!

Chris

In reply to Serpico: The main thrust of the seepage is to the left. The break on Indecent is the right extremity of a line of seeping breaks. I reckon any blockage would probably divert seepage leftwards onto routes which are pretty poor and currently so filthy as to be unclimbable.

In reply to kidcakes:
Please don't jump to far ahead - I'm not saying the BMC will be funding anything. So far, someone has offered to talk to someone else, nothing more

In reply to Anonymous: The scale of this is very minimal. There are many many points of outlet for water leftwards of Indecent. It'd be like blocking one hole in a sieve.

In reply to Boy: If against all odds the blockage did cause a river to flow down Revelations it would be easy enough to reinstate the the original state of affairs.

In reply to Boy:

The quality of the route affected is not the real issue. The real issue is the long term impact on the structural integrity crag of focusing seepage and so erosion in to a specific area. You can't hope to change natural drainage without some potentially unfavourable consequence.

Just because we can, doesn't mean we should...!

Chris

In reply to Boy:
I think you're entirely correct but I just have visions of old Looney Toons cartoons - probably Yosemite Sam - going through my head !

In reply to Anonymous: Structural integrity of the crag!? Increased erosion!? Back in the real world we're talking about a very small volume of water shifting direction by a metre or two. I'm hardly proposing the damming of the Wye valley. Compared to what cavers routinely get up to underground this idea in laughably minute, I hardly think the crag is going to fall over.

In reply to Anonymous:


I'm talking about a modest bead of sealant, not fusing the head of a goat onto the body of a child!

I've got no experience of anything like this but common sense would suggest that redirecting the water would be pretty unpredictable.

In reply to Boy:

Lol - this is the best idea yet - we could call him goat boy...

In reply to Luke90: Have you been to Raven Tor and seen the area in question? Common sense would say blocking one hole in a sieve will make water come out of the hole next door. Hardly unpredictable.

In reply to Duncan Disorderly:
His friends call him Franco...

In reply to Boy:
No, I've never been but is it really as simple as a sieve? There must be all sorts of different channels for the water to flow through and I can't see that there's any guarantee that the hole you propose blocking will be most closely connected to the closest hole on the surface.

In reply to Boy:

I know it sounds dramatic but the pressures applied by freeze thaw and the impace of solution etc... can weaken the rock.

There was a recent case (Terbush v. U.S.) that centered on whether the Yosemite park service cause the indirect death of a climber by their action of diverting waste water down Glacier Point - so influencing erosion (freeze thaw etc...). The case was thrown out of court as Yosemite was deemed to have an immunity based upon ranger discretion w.r.t when and where to warn of danger.

Just something to bare in mind.

Cheers,
Chris

Also, if you bloke one hole to a given depth, water might flow out at an increasing rate ABOVE where you blocked it.

I guess we can 'suck it and see' but I think less is more. There are reasonable non-invasive alternatives.

Chris

...that should read "block" not 'bloke' above!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

And wasn't it was a proper off-the-shelf bolt on hold at Giggleswick on The Sound of One Hand Slapping...?

(Is this the most-read UKC thread ever yet?)

In reply to Guy Maddox:

I'm sure there was at one point, and was it placed by Mr Ryan as well?

Andy F

In reply to Anonymous:

FFS!

maybe we can get the BMC to stop the drainpipe crack on Cloggy seeping too!

Maybe folk could take a step back and see things in perspective?

In reply to Duncan Disorderly:

..and in the winter he could get a job as a waiter in a cafe in Fontainbleau...!

;0)

In reply to Guy Maddox:

Yes, on the unclimbed finish. That took some time Guy ; o )

In reply to kevin stephens: I agree!!!FFS It is really montypythonesque this talk of the seepage. Has anyone been down to Chee Dale cornice in the last week -- water is pouring over and through it! It is hardly surprising that the left side of the Tor is wet. There are still patches of damp on the right side low down.

In reply to John Hart: I think John has got a point about the "from the ground" starts being in condition more often then people are making out. Last December the body machine "from the ground" start was clean and dry. I don't think it is so obvious that plugging the break with sika wouldn't cause some kind of irreversible micro dam burst deep in the cliff leading to water spouting out of ben's roof or whatever. Kristian pointed out that if you look at the black streaks on the cliff you can see that over the years there has been persistent seepage in areas that are always dry now. Cracks eventually get silted up naturally and then the seepage moves to a new spot.

In reply to stone:

Having had chapter verse on the seepage situation from Neil Foster at the crag earlier this week, plus having had a go at Body Machine last night and spending c.20 mins trying to clip the first bolt (20ft up with wet feet), it does seem to me that some sort of 'solution' - other than simply waiting for it to dry out - would be good.

From what Neil said its possible that the significant change in seepage over the past 10 yrs has perhaps been caused by some sort of change in farming activities or field drainage at the Farm above the crag (other side of the road); I'd agree that it'd be worth asking a friendly climber/hydrologist to make an assessment and give a view on this; actually being able to do anything about the problem would I suspect be a whole different matter however.

As to the 'problem' we now have of the first 25ft there would seem to be several immediate options:

1. Do nothing. i.e. live with whats we've got and people make do with it. Usual sort of clip stick action if necessary, then a choice of aiding up to the old 'take-off' point from the tree or climbing the start section if its sufficiently dry.

2. Ladder idea. Stashing a long ladder somewhere nearby would be an easy thing to do and wouldn't have any impact on the crag.

3. Extra bolts / bolt ladder. Doesn't seem too good an idea to me. Could spoil the existing direct starts (which I'm told are good when/if dry). Wouldn't overcome the problem of getting your boots covered in gunge.

4. Plant a new tree. Impossible - the old one was pretty much growing out of bedrock.

5. Other realistic ideas. Are there any? Suspending some sort of caving ladder from the 3rd or 4th bolt? Some other sort of wooden structure rested up against the crag? Or how about dragging the cut tree back up to the crag and somehow wedging it in position / leaning it against the rock?

I suggest we leave it to the people who are really concerned about Raven Tor and who climb there regularly to work out what's best. As a fairly infrequent visitor - I for one feel the character of the routes have been quite badly affected by demise of the tree. The left hand direct start is definitely unclimbably wet and I find it hard to see how the right hand way can be done keeping your feet dry. That said there is chalk on it so I could well be wrong.

Anyway - the BMC is prepared to help out with this in some way if that's what people want.

Dave

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:
This option combined with option 3 is the best IMHO. The start from the ground for Indecent needs a couple of bolts as it has never been properly bolted. Zippys start to body machine is fine as it is. If the rock is wet what is wrong with aiding up and drying your boots on a rag before starting to climb? seems better than ladders and wooden structures.

Use a rag (see above)


None of these are realistic.

In reply to Dave Turnbull:

Get a plank - whack some wooden holds on it - store it in the cave & use it for the starts for whomever wants to use it... I'm not sure if its ethical or not - but was using the tree in the first place & who really gave a frogs fart?

...If someone slips & falls from it - well that's another thing, these days no one takes things seriously do they? (I hope not) Install a ball pool underneath & fun can be had by all...

...just to say some of the posts on here make me want to take up golf - and thats a distinct possibility with the half arsed ideologies & attitudes some people have these days... didn't climbing used to have a modicum of humour in it?

...they call me Jacqusie.... thats not my name...!

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:

IMHO the tree was a 'cheating tree'. We love ROCK climbing - "ROCK"! it's in the name. Don't lose heart over loss of a piece of aid - there are many diferent forms of aid to use. I refer you to B&Q's website. I admire the strong and patient who train hard in true Spartan style, waiting for the day when the route is dry and then conquering the route from the ground.

Let us place this issue in context! The loss of the tree is unbelievably trivial compared to humanitarian disasters that continue to unfold in this troubled world of ours. A sense of proportion is desparately needed.

On a lighter note, I looked at the photo of the tree stump and wow! I didn't see the face of Jesus, but it does remind me of one of those big Yosemite walls. Speaking of which is it possible to get a leg up onto The Nose from one of those them there Gargantuan Redwood Trees.

Take care my friends.

The Meister

In reply to Meister:
I have a sense of deja vu about this post...

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:

Deja entendu peut etre?



Le monsieur

In reply to Meister: About time someone said this. The tree (or should I say use of) was an embassament to the UK climbing scene. When foriegn visitors came to the crag they always questioned why we used the tree when there was perfectly good rock underneath. "What is all that about?"

Its just a pity the stump is still there as it still acts as a leg up still. I'll have to finish the job off!

What is more it will open up a whole new bouldering area! Boulderers are poorly represented at any crag since they can only use the bottom 10ft of any area.

Can't wait, Pinches Wall 2 The Sequel to Pinches Wall. Looking forward to hundreds of hours spent working out wicked problems using 5 holds in different sequences.

In reply to WuDavid:

Best troll answer I've seen for ages.

If there was a medal, you'd win hands down.

In reply to Simon:

I've patented the ladder idea (I think I mentioned it first hmm hmm) £5 for onsight flash thence increasing in price - should encourage better performances from the Peak brigade.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

It's not a troll, it's an 'embassament' of a post.

Alan

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:

Little has moved me to post on this site for ages (sorry Alan). Anyway, I'm very saddened by this strange act of vandalism and pointless destruction. I can understand those (most of whom will have never visited the cliff nor enjoyed its routes, which is fair enough) who claim it was only a tree, but it was much more than that; it was an intrinsic part of the history of one of the great eras of Peak climbing. What a sad day.

I'm afraid most of the proposed solutions look worse than the problem to me, though I also know the rock start is horrible; sharp and often wet. I remember, back in the day, there was a plank in Cressbrook, used for drying holds and the occasional emergency retreat; I guess something similar could work, but it will never be as satisfying as the tree.

I'm unconvinced it was climbers - perhaps I'm an idealist? Anyway, hadn't the crag habitues better be on the alert for other such acts? And, God forbid, on other crags too...

Sigh

Malcolm