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Chris Sharma has named and graded his recently completed mega-project at Clark Mountain (California).
The name, Jumbo Love, with a proposed grade of French 9b or 5.15b
Is this the world's hardest sport route?
What other routes come close?
Who stands a chance of repeating it?
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=09&year=2008#n45317
The name, Jumbo Love, with a proposed grade of French 9b or 5.15b
Is this the world's hardest sport route?
What other routes come close?
Who stands a chance of repeating it?
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=09&year=2008#n45317
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Angle of the Monastery...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=68500
Angle of the Monastery...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=68500
In reply to andrew sandercock:
Who knows?
This however may give you a clue as to his priorities....
"In Spain this past spring he bolted four top-end projects and redpointed two of them before the season ended; Gancho Perfecto (9a, repeated by Ramonet), and Papi Chulo (9a , unrepeated). Chris thinks the other two projects, Golpe Estado and Neandertal, which are featured in Dosage Volume 5, are both about 9b as well. "
And this:
"He's still driven entirely by his sense of aesthetics and personal progression."
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> i wonder if he'll have a go at akira?
>
> i wonder if he'll have a go at akira?
Who knows?
This however may give you a clue as to his priorities....
"In Spain this past spring he bolted four top-end projects and redpointed two of them before the season ended; Gancho Perfecto (9a, repeated by Ramonet), and Papi Chulo (9a , unrepeated). Chris thinks the other two projects, Golpe Estado and Neandertal, which are featured in Dosage Volume 5, are both about 9b as well. "
And this:
"He's still driven entirely by his sense of aesthetics and personal progression."
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
McClure needs to get in on this!
McClure needs to get in on this!
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I would have thought Chilam Balam would have been maore of a target than Akira.
Just to add to the contreversy if he climbed it!!
I would have thought Chilam Balam would have been maore of a target than Akira.
Just to add to the contreversy if he climbed it!!
In reply to vincentvega:
I would love CB to be climbed but after all the controversy surrounding I wonder whether anybody will do it. A bit like the John Dunne 9a at Malham perhaps in this regard (except that one has a broken hold0.
I would love CB to be climbed but after all the controversy surrounding I wonder whether anybody will do it. A bit like the John Dunne 9a at Malham perhaps in this regard (except that one has a broken hold0.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Do you know what Sharma's hardest onsight/flash is?
In reply to kareylarey:
8b+ - I think he has done several. Maybe 8b+/8c if you take the highest grade for some things he has done.
8b+ - I think he has done several. Maybe 8b+/8c if you take the highest grade for some things he has done.
In reply to teddy: And is the hardest ever 8c+? Maybe he should try and catch up in that game.
In reply to vincentvega:
yes that's what it was graded. I think in this context Mick is refering to all climbs graded 9b and above.
yes that's what it was graded. I think in this context Mick is refering to all climbs graded 9b and above.
In reply to kareylarey:
yes Chris is a little behind Paxti in terms of the onsight. Maybe he is not motivated by this style? A lot of luck is involved and chris strikes me as liking to be in control of as many things as possible - perhaps the redpoint suits him better?
yes Chris is a little behind Paxti in terms of the onsight. Maybe he is not motivated by this style? A lot of luck is involved and chris strikes me as liking to be in control of as many things as possible - perhaps the redpoint suits him better?
In reply to vincentvega:
No. A grade was proposed. This ascent has a big question mark next to it. This is not unusual in the world of climbing and mountaineering. Claims are made. Sometimes that claim is disputed.
Because of the nature of our sport (no judges, often no witnesses, ascents and difficulty self-assessed and proclaimed ), you make a claim at the cutting edge of difficulty and like it or not, that claim will be scrutinised by your peers....whether it is a route, a boulder problem or an alpine route.
That's how it is, and how it always has been, and rightly so.
> (In reply to teddy)
>
> and wasnt CB apparently graded 5.15c (9b+)?
>
> and wasnt CB apparently graded 5.15c (9b+)?
No. A grade was proposed. This ascent has a big question mark next to it. This is not unusual in the world of climbing and mountaineering. Claims are made. Sometimes that claim is disputed.
Because of the nature of our sport (no judges, often no witnesses, ascents and difficulty self-assessed and proclaimed ), you make a claim at the cutting edge of difficulty and like it or not, that claim will be scrutinised by your peers....whether it is a route, a boulder problem or an alpine route.
That's how it is, and how it always has been, and rightly so.
In reply to vincentvega:
Yes, but who knows. Chris and Dani tried the route like 2 years ago, with a 100mt long rope and and long quickdraws. They didn't link it. I haven't seen the route in person, so I can't comment on it.
I doubt Chris will ever try or project Akira, I don't think he's interested. He's tried some of hard routes in Ali-baba, but hasn't projected them, that says it all IMO.
Now that he's keen in getting Spanish citizenship, and with the vast amounts of unclimbed rock, I think he'll focus in finding new lines around Lleida.
Yes, but who knows. Chris and Dani tried the route like 2 years ago, with a 100mt long rope and and long quickdraws. They didn't link it. I haven't seen the route in person, so I can't comment on it.
I doubt Chris will ever try or project Akira, I don't think he's interested. He's tried some of hard routes in Ali-baba, but hasn't projected them, that says it all IMO.
Now that he's keen in getting Spanish citizenship, and with the vast amounts of unclimbed rock, I think he'll focus in finding new lines around Lleida.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Yes and the proposed grade of 9b+ for Chilam Balam should stay until a repeat is made. Only then would anybody be in a position to say it goes down to 9b. All else is speculation.
> (In reply to vincentvega)
> [...]
>
> No. A grade was proposed.
> [...]
>
> No. A grade was proposed.
Yes and the proposed grade of 9b+ for Chilam Balam should stay until a repeat is made. Only then would anybody be in a position to say it goes down to 9b. All else is speculation.
In reply to teddy:
No.
The emphasis is on the first ascensionist to make the grade stick. They'd better assess the grade they proposed properly, have a track record to prove their ability and have proof for the actual claim that the route has been ascended.....especially and in particular for routes that propose a new grade, and for last great problems in both the mountains, on the cliffs and at the boulders.
If they don't, they will be doubted.
This is what is evolving these days. It's no longer good enough to just make a claim without any substantial evidence and record.
Most know this these days.
Some proponents are very adept at manipulating the climbing media and climbing community for their own advantage.
The emphasis is on the claimant.
The climbing and mountaineering community has been stung too often for us to accept claims at face value.
It may get ugly but it is the climbing community that will be the judge these days, especially the elite and their peers.
We are no longer a community of gentlemen and lady climbers and mountaineers where everything is based on trust and good faith.
Unfortunate, but a reality.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
> Yes and the proposed grade of 9b+ for Chilam Balam should stay until a repeat is made. Only then would anybody be in a position to say it goes down to 9b. All else is speculation.
> [...]
>
> Yes and the proposed grade of 9b+ for Chilam Balam should stay until a repeat is made. Only then would anybody be in a position to say it goes down to 9b. All else is speculation.
No.
The emphasis is on the first ascensionist to make the grade stick. They'd better assess the grade they proposed properly, have a track record to prove their ability and have proof for the actual claim that the route has been ascended.....especially and in particular for routes that propose a new grade, and for last great problems in both the mountains, on the cliffs and at the boulders.
If they don't, they will be doubted.
This is what is evolving these days. It's no longer good enough to just make a claim without any substantial evidence and record.
Most know this these days.
Some proponents are very adept at manipulating the climbing media and climbing community for their own advantage.
The emphasis is on the claimant.
The climbing and mountaineering community has been stung too often for us to accept claims at face value.
It may get ugly but it is the climbing community that will be the judge these days, especially the elite and their peers.
We are no longer a community of gentlemen and lady climbers and mountaineers where everything is based on trust and good faith.
Unfortunate, but a reality.
In reply to teddy: is it the recent Summit interview where he goes into some detail about why he likes redpointing? wherever it was i read it, he seems to find more of a challenge in this.
In reply to teddy: as far as im aware the FA (if thats what he is) has "no" track record - how can he expect a proposed grade of 9b+ to be taken seriously?
In reply to ksjs:
I haven't read the whole summit interview as it takes 3 months to appear on the web, so I will have to wait until December, tightwad that I am!!
That's something I can believe Mr S saying tho.
I haven't read the whole summit interview as it takes 3 months to appear on the web, so I will have to wait until December, tightwad that I am!!
That's something I can believe Mr S saying tho.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Well what would you suggest then, that they proposed a grade that they did not think correct. I agree with teddy. All else is speculation.
In reply to ksjs:
He does have a track record though. He did a 9a+ in a big cave called 'Oroju' and did several 8c+'s. Possibly not the greatest track record in the world but still a track record.
It is not an ideal scenario I realise for the first ascentionist to be doubted as much as he is in this case. However, I still think that taking Bernabe's proposed grade is better than taking a journalist's interpretation of the grade when that journalist has probably never even visited the crag. Lets not forget that Bernabe spent many years of effort on this testpiece and then immediately retired from high level climbing.
He does have a track record though. He did a 9a+ in a big cave called 'Oroju' and did several 8c+'s. Possibly not the greatest track record in the world but still a track record.
It is not an ideal scenario I realise for the first ascentionist to be doubted as much as he is in this case. However, I still think that taking Bernabe's proposed grade is better than taking a journalist's interpretation of the grade when that journalist has probably never even visited the crag. Lets not forget that Bernabe spent many years of effort on this testpiece and then immediately retired from high level climbing.
In reply to kareylarey:
Often the speculation is in the grade proposed and sometimes if an actual ascent has actually taken place.
This isn't new. It's been going on for years. From cutting edge ascents to everyday first ascents.
Sometimes it is inflated grades to inflate the reputation of the climber - which quite often is exposed quickly, sometimes just out and out lies about an ascent.
We want proof, we want a track record - a pyramid of grades leading to the new grade proposed not just some wild claim, that's bullshit.
The truth always always comes out eventually, sometimes it may take some time.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com) Well what would you suggest then, that they proposed a grade that they did not think correct. I agree with teddy. All else is speculation.
Often the speculation is in the grade proposed and sometimes if an actual ascent has actually taken place.
This isn't new. It's been going on for years. From cutting edge ascents to everyday first ascents.
Sometimes it is inflated grades to inflate the reputation of the climber - which quite often is exposed quickly, sometimes just out and out lies about an ascent.
We want proof, we want a track record - a pyramid of grades leading to the new grade proposed not just some wild claim, that's bullshit.
The truth always always comes out eventually, sometimes it may take some time.
In reply to teddy:
Peers, not a journalist.
"Then there is Chilam Balam, a line in the south of Spain that is as long as Jumbo Love, and which Bernabe Fernandez claimed the first ascent of in 2003, grading it 9b (5.15c). There is serious doubt among the top climbers as to whether this route was actually climbed, and the general opinion seems to be a question mark at best. "
http://www.bigupproductions.com/#/blog/399/
The truth may out, I hope so.
> (In reply to ksjs)
>
>
> It is not an ideal scenario I realise for the first ascentionist to be doubted as much as he is in this case. However, I still think that taking Bernabe's proposed grade is better than taking a journalist's interpretation of the grade when that journalist has probably never even visited the crag.
Peers, not a journalist.
"Then there is Chilam Balam, a line in the south of Spain that is as long as Jumbo Love, and which Bernabe Fernandez claimed the first ascent of in 2003, grading it 9b (5.15c). There is serious doubt among the top climbers as to whether this route was actually climbed, and the general opinion seems to be a question mark at best. "
http://www.bigupproductions.com/#/blog/399/
The truth may out, I hope so.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Do you know the reasons behind the speculation behind whether Chilam Balam was actually climbed as I have never really heard why people doubt him so much?
I heard that his belayer was a random person he met in a bar who could never be found again to back up the story of the FA (convenient!) I also heard that the rock quality is not amazing up there and that subsequent people looking at the route pulled lots of rock off. That is about all I have heard though.
Do you know the reasons behind the speculation behind whether Chilam Balam was actually climbed as I have never really heard why people doubt him so much?
I heard that his belayer was a random person he met in a bar who could never be found again to back up the story of the FA (convenient!) I also heard that the rock quality is not amazing up there and that subsequent people looking at the route pulled lots of rock off. That is about all I have heard though.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Yes ofcourse, but we still cannot tell whether he is realy inflating the grade or not. Again the moto innocent until proven guilty needs applying.
Exactly, time until a repeat or two.
> (In reply to kareylarey)
> [...]
>
> Often the speculation is in the grade proposed and sometimes if an actual ascent has actually taken place.
>
Yes but who are we to know. Trust should be given. Innocent until proven guilty> [...]
>
> Often the speculation is in the grade proposed and sometimes if an actual ascent has actually taken place.
>
> Sometimes it is inflated grades to inflate the reputation of the climber - which quite often is exposed quickly, sometimes just out and out lies about an ascent.
Yes ofcourse, but we still cannot tell whether he is realy inflating the grade or not. Again the moto innocent until proven guilty needs applying.
>
> We want proof, we want a track record - a pyramid of grades leading to the new grade proposed not just some wild claim, that's bullshit.
>
The proof should come from a repeat ascent. He has only proposed a grade harder than he has done before, as Macleod did with E11, yet his claim was not so denied. Ok he had a better 'track record' but not massivly more than the first ascentionist in this case.> We want proof, we want a track record - a pyramid of grades leading to the new grade proposed not just some wild claim, that's bullshit.
>
> The truth always always comes out eventually, sometimes it may take some time.
Exactly, time until a repeat or two.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Yes I read this earlier today. Big up appear to have made an error in their blog as 9b is 5.15b and not 15c (9b+) as they report.
To me a journalist is anybody who reports something as news ie. the Big Up bloggers. I sincerely hope they have spoken to peers who know what they are talking about as the blog does not go into detailed analysis of Chilam Balam before slating it.
Yes I read this earlier today. Big up appear to have made an error in their blog as 9b is 5.15b and not 15c (9b+) as they report.
To me a journalist is anybody who reports something as news ie. the Big Up bloggers. I sincerely hope they have spoken to peers who know what they are talking about as the blog does not go into detailed analysis of Chilam Balam before slating it.
In reply to teddy:
In the end, we all make up our own minds in this fuzzy world of ascents.
Here's some more to chew on.
"And now we have 9b+ by little known Bernabe Fernandez. Just like way back in 1995 when Fred Rouhling claimed 9b with Akira, the World has sat up and cried bullshit. OK, so you can see why: Fernandez should be able to onsight 8c easily and crank 9a after lunch. And is he so much better than Sharma and Ramon? Well who knows –yet. Personally I’d like to think it is 9b+. The amount of time and effort he has put in is incredible; the route is on his home ground and in his favourite style. Maybe the route suited him perfectly. Maybe to him it’s only 9b, but to everyone else it will be 9b+? From what I hear it’s like running a marathon in 400 m sprints with no rest in between. This route is 80 metres long with 400 moves – try building that in your cellar! Whether its 9b+ or not you can be sure it’s not your average jog around the block."
http://www.freakclimbing.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid...
"This happened, for instance, with Orujo, redpointed in 1998 by Bernabe Fernandez, who proposed the grade 9a. In the reality Bernabe had climbed the route using three artificial holds, but he later discovered that they weren’t necessary. A year later he returned with fresh power and redpointed again the route, without using two of the three artificial holds. The fact caused a lot of criticism, especially among the Spanish climbers, and the route was downgraded right away, at least from the moral point of view."
http://www.lasportiva.com/Magazine/inglese/realizzazioni/evoluzioneArrampic...
In the end, we all make up our own minds in this fuzzy world of ascents.
Here's some more to chew on.
"And now we have 9b+ by little known Bernabe Fernandez. Just like way back in 1995 when Fred Rouhling claimed 9b with Akira, the World has sat up and cried bullshit. OK, so you can see why: Fernandez should be able to onsight 8c easily and crank 9a after lunch. And is he so much better than Sharma and Ramon? Well who knows –yet. Personally I’d like to think it is 9b+. The amount of time and effort he has put in is incredible; the route is on his home ground and in his favourite style. Maybe the route suited him perfectly. Maybe to him it’s only 9b, but to everyone else it will be 9b+? From what I hear it’s like running a marathon in 400 m sprints with no rest in between. This route is 80 metres long with 400 moves – try building that in your cellar! Whether its 9b+ or not you can be sure it’s not your average jog around the block."
http://www.freakclimbing.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid...
"This happened, for instance, with Orujo, redpointed in 1998 by Bernabe Fernandez, who proposed the grade 9a. In the reality Bernabe had climbed the route using three artificial holds, but he later discovered that they weren’t necessary. A year later he returned with fresh power and redpointed again the route, without using two of the three artificial holds. The fact caused a lot of criticism, especially among the Spanish climbers, and the route was downgraded right away, at least from the moral point of view."
http://www.lasportiva.com/Magazine/inglese/realizzazioni/evoluzioneArrampic...
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
More here also: http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/andalusiadream/
9b+ in Spain?
On July 4, Bernabé Fernández claimed the first ascent of Chilam-Balam near Málaga, Spain, proposing the grade of 9b+ (5.15c), two full grades above Chris Sharma’s acclaimed Realization at Ceuse, France, and Ramón Julián Puigblanc’s recent La Rambla Direct at Siurana, Spain.
Named after an ancient Mayan story, Chilam-Balam is a traversing, 270-foot super-pitch of overhanging stamina climbing on tufas and colonettes with several bouldering cruxes. Fernández spent three years working the 22-bolt line, using static lines and three-foot-long quickdraws to reduce rope drag and fall potential from the radically overhanging route.
Not surprisingly, the proposed grade has sparked an onslaught of online controversy around the world. “I cannot take Bernabé’s proposal seriously as I can’t see any references that would demonstrate his skills of climbing at such a high level — far above the rest of the world,” writes German Alexander Huber on the European spray-tracking website www.8a.nu.
When the Spanish climbing media asked Fernández to climb on the route in their presence, he declined, stating that if people doubted his claims, they could try the route themselves. “We explained to Fernández that he was claiming the most difficult ascent in the world, and that it had to be clear to all of the climbing community that he had climbed the route,” says Dario Rodriguez, editor at Desnivel Magazine. “But Fernández still refused.”
At least some top Spanish climbers are willing to give Fernández the benefit of the doubt. “I come from the old climbing world and have always been taught to respect the climber and his ascent,” says Josune Bereziartu. “I have no proof to confirm Fernández’s ascent, but I must believe him. Otherwise, all the history of climbing becomes invalid.”
Fernández, who climbed his first 8a at age 14 and established Hari Kiri, Spain’s first 8c, is no stranger to controversy. He rarely leaves his home sector in southern Spain to climb, avoiding the more high-profile climbing areas and climbers. He used several bolted-on holds on his route Orujo, 9a (5.14d). (It is interesting to ponder why Fernández’s bolt-on holds were so controvesial, while standard-setting routes from Mount Charleston to Buoux have gone uncontested in spite of their equally artificial qualities.)
As for grade claims, the “old climbing world” may need to give way to the new. Sponsorship dollars encourage top climbers not only to climb harder, but also to claim high grades for their climbs, and ascents like Chilam-Balam will provoke ever-greater debate and demands for verification. In the end however, says Bereziartu, Fernández’s new grade is “a proposition — just that. In the worst case, Fernandez could be very wrong, but as a climber, he has all my respect.”
More here also: http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/andalusiadream/
9b+ in Spain?
On July 4, Bernabé Fernández claimed the first ascent of Chilam-Balam near Málaga, Spain, proposing the grade of 9b+ (5.15c), two full grades above Chris Sharma’s acclaimed Realization at Ceuse, France, and Ramón Julián Puigblanc’s recent La Rambla Direct at Siurana, Spain.
Named after an ancient Mayan story, Chilam-Balam is a traversing, 270-foot super-pitch of overhanging stamina climbing on tufas and colonettes with several bouldering cruxes. Fernández spent three years working the 22-bolt line, using static lines and three-foot-long quickdraws to reduce rope drag and fall potential from the radically overhanging route.
Not surprisingly, the proposed grade has sparked an onslaught of online controversy around the world. “I cannot take Bernabé’s proposal seriously as I can’t see any references that would demonstrate his skills of climbing at such a high level — far above the rest of the world,” writes German Alexander Huber on the European spray-tracking website www.8a.nu.
When the Spanish climbing media asked Fernández to climb on the route in their presence, he declined, stating that if people doubted his claims, they could try the route themselves. “We explained to Fernández that he was claiming the most difficult ascent in the world, and that it had to be clear to all of the climbing community that he had climbed the route,” says Dario Rodriguez, editor at Desnivel Magazine. “But Fernández still refused.”
At least some top Spanish climbers are willing to give Fernández the benefit of the doubt. “I come from the old climbing world and have always been taught to respect the climber and his ascent,” says Josune Bereziartu. “I have no proof to confirm Fernández’s ascent, but I must believe him. Otherwise, all the history of climbing becomes invalid.”
Fernández, who climbed his first 8a at age 14 and established Hari Kiri, Spain’s first 8c, is no stranger to controversy. He rarely leaves his home sector in southern Spain to climb, avoiding the more high-profile climbing areas and climbers. He used several bolted-on holds on his route Orujo, 9a (5.14d). (It is interesting to ponder why Fernández’s bolt-on holds were so controvesial, while standard-setting routes from Mount Charleston to Buoux have gone uncontested in spite of their equally artificial qualities.)
As for grade claims, the “old climbing world” may need to give way to the new. Sponsorship dollars encourage top climbers not only to climb harder, but also to claim high grades for their climbs, and ascents like Chilam-Balam will provoke ever-greater debate and demands for verification. In the end however, says Bereziartu, Fernández’s new grade is “a proposition — just that. In the worst case, Fernandez could be very wrong, but as a climber, he has all my respect.”
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Cheers Mick, interesting reading. I think I have read most before but good to have it all in one place. there seem to be a lot of jealous people out there! Alex Huber especially seems pissed. I guess if its their life they are talking about, they have a right to!
Cheers Mick, interesting reading. I think I have read most before but good to have it all in one place. there seem to be a lot of jealous people out there! Alex Huber especially seems pissed. I guess if its their life they are talking about, they have a right to!
In reply to teddy:
Jealousy and ambition are perhaps two reasons why some climbers make false claims.
It does generate a lot of bad feeling.
In an ideal world we wouldn't give a cutting edge route a grade until it had had several repeats and those ascensionists could agree on a consensus grade.
But that isn't going to happen is it?
Everyone wants the grade.....us punters and journos, the magazines and websites and their editors and readers, the dvd makers and the dvd watchers, climbing companies, guidebook writers and other professional climbers.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> Cheers Mick, interesting reading. I think I have read most before but good to have it all in one place. there seem to be a lot of jealous people out there!
>
> Cheers Mick, interesting reading. I think I have read most before but good to have it all in one place. there seem to be a lot of jealous people out there!
Jealousy and ambition are perhaps two reasons why some climbers make false claims.
It does generate a lot of bad feeling.
In an ideal world we wouldn't give a cutting edge route a grade until it had had several repeats and those ascensionists could agree on a consensus grade.
But that isn't going to happen is it?
Everyone wants the grade.....us punters and journos, the magazines and websites and their editors and readers, the dvd makers and the dvd watchers, climbing companies, guidebook writers and other professional climbers.
In reply to teddy:
Huber sounded very doubting (to put it lightly) when the guys from some US magazine (Climbing?) interviewed him and also spoke to Rhouling about Akira too. They left with the definite impression he had done it, from watching him link huge sequences of it together, them pointing and telling him where to start and where to finish. They took this to Huber who basically told them they were wrong to their faces by all accounts.....
AJM
Huber sounded very doubting (to put it lightly) when the guys from some US magazine (Climbing?) interviewed him and also spoke to Rhouling about Akira too. They left with the definite impression he had done it, from watching him link huge sequences of it together, them pointing and telling him where to start and where to finish. They took this to Huber who basically told them they were wrong to their faces by all accounts.....
AJM
In reply to AJM:
I think there is no doubt about Akira and Rouhling now. Have you seen the video of him linking a huge section of it? Its totally sick how he does most of it footless. I think the poor dude has come in for an incredibly bad rap.
I think there is no doubt about Akira and Rouhling now. Have you seen the video of him linking a huge section of it? Its totally sick how he does most of it footless. I think the poor dude has come in for an incredibly bad rap.
In reply to teddy:
youtube.com/watch?v=dSSxk71e-2k&
> (In reply to AJM)
>
> I think there is no doubt about Akira and Rouhling now. Have you seen the video of him linking a huge section of it? I
>
> I think there is no doubt about Akira and Rouhling now. Have you seen the video of him linking a huge section of it? I
youtube.com/watch?v=dSSxk71e-2k&
In reply to teddy: im sorry but not track record enough. if he wants his claim to be taken seriously he needs to go and climb (and be seen climbing) established 9a/+ routes in other areas / countries. if, because of principle or whatever, he feels this shouldnt be necessary then he must surely recognise that to external, objective observers it does appear that here is a large credibility gap here.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Amazing effort - but it has to be said "Jumbo Love"!? Crappy name Chris! Is that how he pulls the beautiful senoritas?
In reply to ksjs:
I agree with you to a certain extent. Unfortunately we live in much more cynical times now than in 2003. Perhaps Bernabe was being naive about his ascent and thought that everybody would believe him about his ascent. Lets not forget that he was quite old then and at the end of his career. His values were probably from an earlier school of honesty where people are taken at their word. Josune seemed to believe him.
Basically now, if you do not do anything on video, you have not done it!! Sad but true.
I agree with you to a certain extent. Unfortunately we live in much more cynical times now than in 2003. Perhaps Bernabe was being naive about his ascent and thought that everybody would believe him about his ascent. Lets not forget that he was quite old then and at the end of his career. His values were probably from an earlier school of honesty where people are taken at their word. Josune seemed to believe him.
Basically now, if you do not do anything on video, you have not done it!! Sad but true.
In reply to ksjs:
The record for the 100m sprint is 9.69 s.
What if someone claimed 9.5 s. No witnesses, no judge, no time keeper.
It was claimed by someone who hadn't even ran 9.7 s, but had, again with no witnesses claimed 100m in 9.8 s
Would we believe them?
> (In reply to teddy) im sorry but not track record enough. if he wants his claim to be taken seriously he needs to go and climb (and be seen climbing) established 9a/+ routes in other areas / countries. if, because of principle or whatever, he feels this shouldnt be necessary then he must surely recognise that to external, objective observers it does appear that here is a large credibility gap here.
The record for the 100m sprint is 9.69 s.
What if someone claimed 9.5 s. No witnesses, no judge, no time keeper.
It was claimed by someone who hadn't even ran 9.7 s, but had, again with no witnesses claimed 100m in 9.8 s
Would we believe them?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Until someone is strong enough to repeat violent new breed then we are never going to know.
> Is this the world's hardest sport route?
>
>
Until someone is strong enough to repeat violent new breed then we are never going to know.
In reply to superfurrymonkey:
Now you are talking?
I want the T-shirt!
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
> Until someone is strong enough to repeat violent new breed then we are never going to know.
> [...]
>
> Until someone is strong enough to repeat violent new breed then we are never going to know.
Now you are talking?
I want the T-shirt!
In reply to ksjs:
Yep he said that he could go around climbing numerous 8cs but this holds no appeals as he wants to push the limits of what he is capable off.
Yep he said that he could go around climbing numerous 8cs but this holds no appeals as he wants to push the limits of what he is capable off.
In reply to Bulls Crack:
It is actually a great name. Well chosen.
The neighbouring route is called "Jumbo Pumping Hate"..... I can imagine why that route was so called, young Leavitt being totally in bulk on the route and the effort of driving from San Diego, 200 miles away every weekend, then an hour hike uphill.
TobyFK has a good take on it too,
"Nice contrast implied in these names between the snarly competitive 80s/ early 90s era and mellow mutually-supportive hippie 00s. Time for a backlash against the backlash perhaps?"
Maybe not as good as 'Stone Love'
Jumbo Love......... a big all encompassing love of life and climbing, sums it all up for me.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> Great achievement - cr*p name
>
> Great achievement - cr*p name
It is actually a great name. Well chosen.
The neighbouring route is called "Jumbo Pumping Hate"..... I can imagine why that route was so called, young Leavitt being totally in bulk on the route and the effort of driving from San Diego, 200 miles away every weekend, then an hour hike uphill.
TobyFK has a good take on it too,
"Nice contrast implied in these names between the snarly competitive 80s/ early 90s era and mellow mutually-supportive hippie 00s. Time for a backlash against the backlash perhaps?"
Maybe not as good as 'Stone Love'
Jumbo Love......... a big all encompassing love of life and climbing, sums it all up for me.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: 100 ft falls!
At truely great achievement though!
Has Sharma done any trad?
At truely great achievement though!
Has Sharma done any trad?
In reply to james oswald:
I think he has done a bunch. He did Moonlight Buttress 12d or E6 in King Lines and he has done some hard cracks in the Valley years ago.
I think he has done a bunch. He did Moonlight Buttress 12d or E6 in King Lines and he has done some hard cracks in the Valley years ago.
In reply to teddy:
maybe he should do more if he is prepared to take 100ft falls!?
maybe he should do more if he is prepared to take 100ft falls!?
In reply to james oswald:
No. He's not a 'real' climber!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just a pretend one.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> Has Sharma done any trad?
No. He's not a 'real' climber!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just a pretend one.
No disrespect meant to Dave Macleod here, but I don't think even he would consider himself a contender for a repeat of this would he? Surely you need to have a stack of 9a+'s under your belt to be on that very elite list. He's clearly an exceptional climb er, but his inclusion on a list of the top 5 or 10 sport climbers in the world might raise some eyebrows.
That said, I'm sure if he devoted himself fully to sport climbing he may be capable of reaching that sort of level. But we're really talking Olympic final standard here aren't we...
That said, I'm sure if he devoted himself fully to sport climbing he may be capable of reaching that sort of level. But we're really talking Olympic final standard here aren't we...
In reply to teddy: maybe
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Shouldn't that be he soloed an 8b/8b+ with the crux 15 foot off the ground but the moves higher up are piss in comparison
Shouldn't that be he soloed an 8b/8b+ with the crux 15 foot off the ground but the moves higher up are piss in comparison
In reply to teddy: ....and then climbed 8c++ unprotected on the Ben. Sounds like you are talking from personal experiance of the route. if this is so- i apologize unreservadly. if not....
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Each to their own!
And actually better than the neighbouring routes' name
> (In reply to Bulls Crack)
> [...]
>
> It is actually a great name. Well chosen.
>
> The neighbouring route is called "Jumbo Pumping Hate"..... I can imagine why that route was so called, young Leavitt being totally in bulk on the route and the effort of driving from San Diego, 200 miles away every weekend, then an hour hike uphill.
>
> TobyFK has a good take on it too,
>
> "Nice contrast implied in these names between the snarly competitive 80s/ early 90s era and mellow mutually-supportive hippie 00s. Time for a backlash against the backlash perhaps?"
>
> Maybe not as good as 'Stone Love'
>
> Jumbo Love......... a big all encompassing love of life and climbing, sums it all up for me.
> [...]
>
> It is actually a great name. Well chosen.
>
> The neighbouring route is called "Jumbo Pumping Hate"..... I can imagine why that route was so called, young Leavitt being totally in bulk on the route and the effort of driving from San Diego, 200 miles away every weekend, then an hour hike uphill.
>
> TobyFK has a good take on it too,
>
> "Nice contrast implied in these names between the snarly competitive 80s/ early 90s era and mellow mutually-supportive hippie 00s. Time for a backlash against the backlash perhaps?"
>
> Maybe not as good as 'Stone Love'
>
> Jumbo Love......... a big all encompassing love of life and climbing, sums it all up for me.
Each to their own!
And actually better than the neighbouring routes' name
In reply to thomasfoote:
I am only following the opinions of Chris Sharma and Dani Andrada about the route at Margalef.
I am only following the opinions of Chris Sharma and Dani Andrada about the route at Margalef.
In reply to thomasfoote & Mick Ryan:
Very impressive, but not that relevant to this debate, surely? Good head control is a good skill to have, but it doesn't necessarily help you when the moves get simply too hard.
As Ged said, its taken a man with however many 9a/9a+s under his belt (don't know, 10-15?), and who is also a world class boulderer on top, a long long time to get this. Dave hasn't done any 9a+s yet, as far as I know, and one 9a. He might have the potential to do it at some point, but I doubt its going to be immediate.
AJM
Very impressive, but not that relevant to this debate, surely? Good head control is a good skill to have, but it doesn't necessarily help you when the moves get simply too hard.
As Ged said, its taken a man with however many 9a/9a+s under his belt (don't know, 10-15?), and who is also a world class boulderer on top, a long long time to get this. Dave hasn't done any 9a+s yet, as far as I know, and one 9a. He might have the potential to do it at some point, but I doubt its going to be immediate.
AJM
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: dani andrada in the article in escalar mag 2006 suggested that CB was like 2 8c+ pitches linked together.Sharma thought at the time(pre mt clark?) that THIS was the hardest thing he had been on.So the challenge is still to climb the thing as a repeat or not.Has not Edu Marin been on it alot?.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
great achievement but crap name!
does this now mean that CS is grading his routes or is it a one off?
great achievement but crap name!
does this now mean that CS is grading his routes or is it a one off?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Jumbo Pumping Hate is so named cause it was four times as long as Pumping Hate, an earlier Leavitt route of the same steepness and climbing style at Joshua Tree.
Jumbo Pumping Hate is so named cause it was four times as long as Pumping Hate, an earlier Leavitt route of the same steepness and climbing style at Joshua Tree.
I like the name if only for the amusing contrast in names, and am v pleased for Sharma. He strikes me as potentially quite an interesting character, if you could get through some of that surfer dude veneer
Is McClure into stuff that steep? Honest question as he strikes me as being totally suited to what Sharma rather disparagingly called a hold ladder (albeit small and v steep) whereas the fiercely overhanging stuff doesn't seem quite so much his game. Could be 100% wrong however.
Is McClure into stuff that steep? Honest question as he strikes me as being totally suited to what Sharma rather disparagingly called a hold ladder (albeit small and v steep) whereas the fiercely overhanging stuff doesn't seem quite so much his game. Could be 100% wrong however.
In reply to JonC:
He is from Santa Cruz; some comment about the Pope and his religion comes to mind .
> He strikes me as potentially quite an interesting character, if you could get through some of that surfer dude veneer
He is from Santa Cruz; some comment about the Pope and his religion comes to mind .
In reply to GDes:
When I read thru the list of contenders, neither Yuji nor Dai were mentioned...would they not be up there as well?
When I read thru the list of contenders, neither Yuji nor Dai were mentioned...would they not be up there as well?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Sharma is one of those saying that Chilam Bilam was never done having been on it a lot. He also says the tops bit is naff, contrived and avoids the best looking line.
He also said that the reason he is now grading things is cos he had a 'chat' with himself a few years back (after realisation) and decided that he wanted to continue this climbing life and decided to work harder for his sponsors including being more open about stuff which a lot of the general public are after...
He also said that the reason he is now grading things is cos he had a 'chat' with himself a few years back (after realisation) and decided that he wanted to continue this climbing life and decided to work harder for his sponsors including being more open about stuff which a lot of the general public are after...
In reply to Nj:
Thats strange as he described it at as futuristic in an escalar mag in 2006...saying it was inspiring enough for him to train very hard for...on that visit I believe the article states he linked the first 8c+ 'pitch'. Peoples opinions change for sure.Some Americains last year who i was camping next to were talking about it at one point.They did say that doing the whole thing in 1 pitch was apart from the climbing,very hard to set up to 'work'-super long slings etc and maybe it was better as a 2 pitch rt?Just rumour mill stuff though.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com) Sharma is one of those saying that Chilam Bilam was never done having been on it a lot. He also says the tops bit is naff, contrived and avoids the best looking line.
>
> He also said that the reason he is now grading things is cos he had a 'chat' with himself a few years back (after realisation) and decided that he wanted to continue this climbing life and decided to work harder for his sponsors including being more open about stuff which a lot of the general public are after...
>
> He also said that the reason he is now grading things is cos he had a 'chat' with himself a few years back (after realisation) and decided that he wanted to continue this climbing life and decided to work harder for his sponsors including being more open about stuff which a lot of the general public are after...
Thats strange as he described it at as futuristic in an escalar mag in 2006...saying it was inspiring enough for him to train very hard for...on that visit I believe the article states he linked the first 8c+ 'pitch'. Peoples opinions change for sure.Some Americains last year who i was camping next to were talking about it at one point.They did say that doing the whole thing in 1 pitch was apart from the climbing,very hard to set up to 'work'-super long slings etc and maybe it was better as a 2 pitch rt?Just rumour mill stuff though.
In reply to Nj:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com) Sharma is one of those saying that Chilam Bilam was never done having been on it a lot. He also says the tops bit is naff, contrived and avoids the best looking line.
>
Where did you hear this nj?>
In reply to JonC:
Difficult to speak for the man without knowing him but isn't the main overhang at Kilnsey, where he just did Northern Star - his new 9a/+, more than 30 degrees. Plus his routes at Malham (Rainshadow, Overshadow) look like they tackle some pretty fierce overhanging sections!
> Is McClure into stuff that steep? Honest question as he strikes me as being totally suited to what Sharma rather disparagingly called a hold ladder (albeit small and v steep) whereas the fiercely overhanging stuff doesn't seem quite so much his game. Could be 100% wrong however.
Difficult to speak for the man without knowing him but isn't the main overhang at Kilnsey, where he just did Northern Star - his new 9a/+, more than 30 degrees. Plus his routes at Malham (Rainshadow, Overshadow) look like they tackle some pretty fierce overhanging sections!
In reply to teddy:
Chris stayed with me when he was on his tour. Really cool to sit back and chat with him about these things!
> (In reply to Nj)
> [...]
> Where did you hear this nj?
> [...]
> Where did you hear this nj?
Chris stayed with me when he was on his tour. Really cool to sit back and chat with him about these things!
Cool! Great to hear it from the horse's mouth if you will!
Regarding the general discussion above about CB, even though there are obviously huge question marks about the route, it seems such a shame that now a lot of people don't believe it was ever climbed.
Those photos in the magazines were amazing of Bernabe with huge arm muscles, evidently gained from years working this route, clambering over massive tufas on an insanely steep and long wall with superlong quickdraws dangling down all over the show.
If somebody were to fabricate an ascent such as this, why would they do it if they were immediately retiring afterwards? What would he stand to gain if they no longer needed the support of sponsors? Could they live with themselves for doing such a thing (I know I certainly couldn't)? I don't think Bernabe was a Si O'Connor, somebody who disgracefully invented ascents/ grades for his own personal ends. He was genuinely respected in the climbing world - fair enough he didn't venture much outside of his home patch. He had been climbing hard routes for so long, since the '80's I think. I just don't view his ascent as being false, can't see it, it just doesn't add up.
It may be overgraded but that is a different matter. Fair enough the route is a bit contrived at the top, so is Rhapsody! Sharma is renowned as a 'rock snob' so no wonder he turned his nose up at it.
People falsely accuse many climbers in the hope that mud will stick - look at Gaskins and Marcus Bock. It doesn't mean what they say is true. There are people out there who don't believe Violient New Breed was climbed because Gaskins did it alone on a self belaying device!! Look at what people said about Fred Rouhling back in the day about his 9b in '95. Ten years on he was totally exonerated, egg all over the face of the armchair critics.
Anyway, going back to CB, I reckon the truth will out sooner or later, interesting discussion.
Regarding the general discussion above about CB, even though there are obviously huge question marks about the route, it seems such a shame that now a lot of people don't believe it was ever climbed.
Those photos in the magazines were amazing of Bernabe with huge arm muscles, evidently gained from years working this route, clambering over massive tufas on an insanely steep and long wall with superlong quickdraws dangling down all over the show.
If somebody were to fabricate an ascent such as this, why would they do it if they were immediately retiring afterwards? What would he stand to gain if they no longer needed the support of sponsors? Could they live with themselves for doing such a thing (I know I certainly couldn't)? I don't think Bernabe was a Si O'Connor, somebody who disgracefully invented ascents/ grades for his own personal ends. He was genuinely respected in the climbing world - fair enough he didn't venture much outside of his home patch. He had been climbing hard routes for so long, since the '80's I think. I just don't view his ascent as being false, can't see it, it just doesn't add up.
It may be overgraded but that is a different matter. Fair enough the route is a bit contrived at the top, so is Rhapsody! Sharma is renowned as a 'rock snob' so no wonder he turned his nose up at it.
People falsely accuse many climbers in the hope that mud will stick - look at Gaskins and Marcus Bock. It doesn't mean what they say is true. There are people out there who don't believe Violient New Breed was climbed because Gaskins did it alone on a self belaying device!! Look at what people said about Fred Rouhling back in the day about his 9b in '95. Ten years on he was totally exonerated, egg all over the face of the armchair critics.
Anyway, going back to CB, I reckon the truth will out sooner or later, interesting discussion.
In reply to teddy:
Yes, as Mick commented a while back, it usually does. Let's hope he did do it - for all sorts of reasons, not least, as you note, his peace of mind.
Surely we owe him the benefit of the doubt...
Mick
> Anyway, going back to CB, I reckon the truth will out sooner or later...
Yes, as Mick commented a while back, it usually does. Let's hope he did do it - for all sorts of reasons, not least, as you note, his peace of mind.
Surely we owe him the benefit of the doubt...
Mick
In reply to teddy: One thing Sharma did say was that he believed CB was 9b+.
He had had some redpoint attempts, spent well over an hour on the route and was consdiering stashing food and water at one of the rests!!
He had had some redpoint attempts, spent well over an hour on the route and was consdiering stashing food and water at one of the rests!!
In reply to Nj:
From 8a.nu
The hardest routes in the world (20) 17/09
1. Es pontas, 9b Chris Sharma
2. Delincuente natural, 9b Dani Andrada
3. Jumbo Love, 9b Chris Sharma
4. Akira, 9b Fred Rouhling
5. Coup de grace, 9a+ Dave Graham
6. Northern Exposure, 9a+ Steve McClure
The grades and the list of the hardest possible climbs in the world are based on how much effort that have been spent by the best climbers for success and failure. We are of course speculating and 8a do not have the truth. We are excluding 'boulderroutes' and 'Poorly/Mainly chipped' routes.
From 8a.nu
The hardest routes in the world (20) 17/09
1. Es pontas, 9b Chris Sharma
2. Delincuente natural, 9b Dani Andrada
3. Jumbo Love, 9b Chris Sharma
4. Akira, 9b Fred Rouhling
5. Coup de grace, 9a+ Dave Graham
6. Northern Exposure, 9a+ Steve McClure
The grades and the list of the hardest possible climbs in the world are based on how much effort that have been spent by the best climbers for success and failure. We are of course speculating and 8a do not have the truth. We are excluding 'boulderroutes' and 'Poorly/Mainly chipped' routes.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Thats interesting. If there is another Sharma route rated above Jumbo Love, where does the claim for hardest in the world for JL originate ?
Thats interesting. If there is another Sharma route rated above Jumbo Love, where does the claim for hardest in the world for JL originate ?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Isn't Overshadow harder than NE, 9a+ as opposed to 9a/9a+ ?
Andy F
> (In reply to Nj)
> 6. Northern Exposure, 9a+ Steve McClure
Isn't Overshadow harder than NE, 9a+ as opposed to 9a/9a+ ?
Andy F
In reply to andy farnell:
Don't know. Haven't done either.....yet.
Apart from that the list I quoted is from 8a.nu....perhaps ask them.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Isn't Overshadow harder than NE, 9a+ as opposed to 9a/9a+ ?
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Isn't Overshadow harder than NE, 9a+ as opposed to 9a/9a+ ?
Don't know. Haven't done either.....yet.
Apart from that the list I quoted is from 8a.nu....perhaps ask them.
In reply to mallory45:
They are both rock climbs that you climb from the bottom to the top in one push.
Also, it is 'sport climb' not 'sports climb'.
> (In reply to GrahamD) perhaps because Es Pontas is a Deep Water Solo, while JL is a sports route.
They are both rock climbs that you climb from the bottom to the top in one push.
Also, it is 'sport climb' not 'sports climb'.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Didn't know you'd tried either of them... yet
Andy F
> (In reply to andy farnell)
> [...]
>
> Don't know. Haven't done either.....yet.
> [...]
>
> Don't know. Haven't done either.....yet.
Didn't know you'd tried either of them... yet
Andy F
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Guilty as charged
> (In reply to mallory45)
> Also, it is 'sport climb' not 'sports climb'.
Guilty as charged
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