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James' proposed grade certainly has had a lot of top climbers discussing grades.
Climbers like Neil Gresham, Gaz Parry, John Dunne and Pete Robins have been heard discussing this new grade and grades in general recently, and it is certainly a hot topic on the UKClimbing.com forums.
Grading something E12, a first, is not to be taken lightly, and quite rightly climbers want to discuss it, know more about it and analyse it.
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=10&year=2008#n45378
Climbers like Neil Gresham, Gaz Parry, John Dunne and Pete Robins have been heard discussing this new grade and grades in general recently, and it is certainly a hot topic on the UKClimbing.com forums.
Grading something E12, a first, is not to be taken lightly, and quite rightly climbers want to discuss it, know more about it and analyse it.
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=10&year=2008#n45378
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: A good read. Makes me think that the E12 headpoint is based on E11 headpoint based on E10 headpoint based on E9 headpoint. If someone came along and onsighted the E9 and downgraded it we could watch a pack of cards etc.
Anyway, not onsighted E9 so what do I know.
Anyway, not onsighted E9 so what do I know.
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat: Where are the quotes on E12 from the top climbers?
In reply to Richard Bradley: dunno - I'm just postulating
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:
Or its the best educated guess of grades for a route so hard only a few very talented climbers can do it, based on a wider consensus of the slightly easier routes that are still so hard no one has onsighted them. It's not like future climbers won't out the persistent publicity hungry overgraders of the present and where this isnt the case shame the doubting armchair critics. As a punter I'm glad some climbers are still pushing the envelope rather than putting down others.
Or its the best educated guess of grades for a route so hard only a few very talented climbers can do it, based on a wider consensus of the slightly easier routes that are still so hard no one has onsighted them. It's not like future climbers won't out the persistent publicity hungry overgraders of the present and where this isnt the case shame the doubting armchair critics. As a punter I'm glad some climbers are still pushing the envelope rather than putting down others.
Isn't that Mackenzie Crook?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I didn't know the groove was thought to be E11.
In reply to Liam Copley:
James has recently suggested an upgrade from E10 to E11... he has suggested E11. Read his blog.
You really need to read what James has written it is very interesting.
Read the news report: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=10&year=2008#n45378
and read James' blog.
Spend about an hour thinking, then post. Drink tea whilst you are doing this.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com) I didn't know the groove was thought to be E11.
James has recently suggested an upgrade from E10 to E11... he has suggested E11. Read his blog.
You really need to read what James has written it is very interesting.
Read the news report: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=10&year=2008#n45378
and read James' blog.
Spend about an hour thinking, then post. Drink tea whilst you are doing this.
Remember when i read the report on the groove thinking it was e11. You've got a 7b move (after already hard climbing) from which if you fell you'd probably hit the ground head first... crazy stuff!!
i've climbed e13 so i can justify my comments
i've climbed e13 so i can justify my comments
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
"Climbers like Neil Gresham, Gaz Parry, John Dunne and Pete Robins have been heard discussing this new grade and grades in general recently"
Where, who by? Seems a little vague.
"Climbers like Neil Gresham, Gaz Parry, John Dunne and Pete Robins have been heard discussing this new grade and grades in general recently"
Where, who by? Seems a little vague.
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:
You know jack. Each additional `theoretical E-grade' is about two sport grades harder (than one of the previous grade with equivalent pro) so far from coming down like a pack of cards, when any of these things are onsighted the actual E grades will if anything be higher (assuming no duff sequences etc.). Now they've ben rationalised (some of the old E10s been downgraded) the top end trad routes really are just that physically hard, before you even consider the prang potential.
The famous E9 Indian Face only has 7b+ slab climbing on it - in world terms that's basically a piece of piss, just f*cking impossible to onsight. It probably wouldn't get onsighted that often even if it was bolted, except by a proportion of the numbers trying it. But obviously the underbolting is an issue that puts people off.
Onsights of these trad routes will be so unbelievably impressive they'l realy be at a new level. If this did happen, you lot would just sit back and sup your pint and go: `ah do, about time too, that showed them top roping nancies' which would just illustrate that you don't have a clue.
You know jack. Each additional `theoretical E-grade' is about two sport grades harder (than one of the previous grade with equivalent pro) so far from coming down like a pack of cards, when any of these things are onsighted the actual E grades will if anything be higher (assuming no duff sequences etc.). Now they've ben rationalised (some of the old E10s been downgraded) the top end trad routes really are just that physically hard, before you even consider the prang potential.
The famous E9 Indian Face only has 7b+ slab climbing on it - in world terms that's basically a piece of piss, just f*cking impossible to onsight. It probably wouldn't get onsighted that often even if it was bolted, except by a proportion of the numbers trying it. But obviously the underbolting is an issue that puts people off.
Onsights of these trad routes will be so unbelievably impressive they'l realy be at a new level. If this did happen, you lot would just sit back and sup your pint and go: `ah do, about time too, that showed them top roping nancies' which would just illustrate that you don't have a clue.
In reply to Paz: Intersting reply - now go and re-read the word just before 'someone' then look up postulate in the dictionary.
Numpty!
Numpty!
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:
OK so you qualifed your rushed guess, but the E12 isn't just based on an overgraded E9 is it? It's got physical facts like how hard the climbing is and how good the gear is backing it up, before we even consider an onsight.
If this thing gets downgraded then it'll be Niall Grimes/ Seb Grieve on Parthian style `not having the good grace to die on an E10' etc. - i.e. someone will eventually say it's only E11 because James took a fall and lived.
OK so you qualifed your rushed guess, but the E12 isn't just based on an overgraded E9 is it? It's got physical facts like how hard the climbing is and how good the gear is backing it up, before we even consider an onsight.
If this thing gets downgraded then it'll be Niall Grimes/ Seb Grieve on Parthian style `not having the good grace to die on an E10' etc. - i.e. someone will eventually say it's only E11 because James took a fall and lived.
In reply to Richard Bradley:
Top climbers will not be quoted directly and on the record about the grades of other top climbers routes unless they have actually done them. Not usually.... I could be proven wrong.
They will however discuss them at length amongst themselves.
In fact I have video of two climbers, one living in London, one from North Wales discussing at length.... grades! On the London tube! I'll keep that clip to myself.
Grades are a universal discussion topic amongst all climbers, whatever grade they climb, and whether or not they are sitting in armchairs or not.
Mick
> (In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat) Where are the quotes on E12 from the top climbers?
Top climbers will not be quoted directly and on the record about the grades of other top climbers routes unless they have actually done them. Not usually.... I could be proven wrong.
They will however discuss them at length amongst themselves.
In fact I have video of two climbers, one living in London, one from North Wales discussing at length.... grades! On the London tube! I'll keep that clip to myself.
Grades are a universal discussion topic amongst all climbers, whatever grade they climb, and whether or not they are sitting in armchairs or not.
Mick
In reply to Paz:
Well indeed, Steve McClure has already said something similar.......
"The route is E11 if the fall could result in injury, E10 if it's safe. Sonny took numerous falls and I myself lobbed off from high up without even the slightest discomfort... but we were a good distance from the top. Had we dropped the last move and had the same feeling it would be E10 - but we didn't (thankfully). So I guess we don't know. Dave did, and hurt himself. He was however apparently using different belay tactics, a fixed belayer on the half height ledge reducing the rope paid out and thus increasing the fall factor and likelihood of swinging into the wall. Having the belayer on the ground increases the weight of rope carried up - but would perhaps make the fall from the top safer....perhaps.
Good fun this lark isn't it"
> . - i.e. someone will eventually say it's only E11 because James took a fall and lived.
Well indeed, Steve McClure has already said something similar.......
"The route is E11 if the fall could result in injury, E10 if it's safe. Sonny took numerous falls and I myself lobbed off from high up without even the slightest discomfort... but we were a good distance from the top. Had we dropped the last move and had the same feeling it would be E10 - but we didn't (thankfully). So I guess we don't know. Dave did, and hurt himself. He was however apparently using different belay tactics, a fixed belayer on the half height ledge reducing the rope paid out and thus increasing the fall factor and likelihood of swinging into the wall. Having the belayer on the ground increases the weight of rope carried up - but would perhaps make the fall from the top safer....perhaps.
Good fun this lark isn't it"
In reply to Paz:
Ha! Grades are comparative. That is fundamental to climbing grades. They are not measured by a machine, a stop watch or a tape measure, but a feeling........ and how hard theyb 'feel' to other routes the climber has done.
Fuzzy in the extreme.... but we like numbers don't we?
> (In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat)
>
> OK so you qualifed your rushed guess, but the E12 isn't just based on an overgraded E9 is it? It's got physical facts like how hard the climbing is and how good the gear is backing it up, before we even consider an onsight.
>
> OK so you qualifed your rushed guess, but the E12 isn't just based on an overgraded E9 is it? It's got physical facts like how hard the climbing is and how good the gear is backing it up, before we even consider an onsight.
Ha! Grades are comparative. That is fundamental to climbing grades. They are not measured by a machine, a stop watch or a tape measure, but a feeling........ and how hard theyb 'feel' to other routes the climber has done.
Fuzzy in the extreme.... but we like numbers don't we?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: The grade may well be E12, but the hardest grade you can enter on UKC is still E11
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Surely then you shouldn't be saying that they have made comments in the first place.
Surely then you shouldn't be saying that they have made comments in the first place.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Really interesting blog, and puts a lot of rubbish written here on UKC to shame. The whole subjective angle is one that people seem to completely miss, and I think James should be credited for such a thoughtful, insightful blog entry about a very difficult topic.
I think climbing in the UK has taken a couple of steps forward over the last couple of years, and think it might be a while before people move it on further.
Whatever the grade ends up being, I think its pretty obvious that the Walk of Life is an awesome, envelope-pushing climb and one done on an excellent ethical basis. This, if nothing else, will be remembered in the future. Great effort James.
Really interesting blog, and puts a lot of rubbish written here on UKC to shame. The whole subjective angle is one that people seem to completely miss, and I think James should be credited for such a thoughtful, insightful blog entry about a very difficult topic.
I think climbing in the UK has taken a couple of steps forward over the last couple of years, and think it might be a while before people move it on further.
Whatever the grade ends up being, I think its pretty obvious that the Walk of Life is an awesome, envelope-pushing climb and one done on an excellent ethical basis. This, if nothing else, will be remembered in the future. Great effort James.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
What do people think about this new "H" grade that a few people have been knocking about recenty when they've headpointed hard new routes? Could it have been that if James had been the person to use this for such a promininant climb and graded his new route H12, the climbing community would have accepted it more and it may have slowed, or possibly stopped the escelating "E" grades? Similar in the way that Dave McLeod hasn't graded Eco Wall. Dave Birkett has previously said that for him to grade a route E10, there has to be certain death from anywhere on the climb if you fall, and this isn't so on James' new line, so arguably this could have been given a "traditional" grade of E9...
Just one man's opinion, have a think about it.
What do people think about this new "H" grade that a few people have been knocking about recenty when they've headpointed hard new routes? Could it have been that if James had been the person to use this for such a promininant climb and graded his new route H12, the climbing community would have accepted it more and it may have slowed, or possibly stopped the escelating "E" grades? Similar in the way that Dave McLeod hasn't graded Eco Wall. Dave Birkett has previously said that for him to grade a route E10, there has to be certain death from anywhere on the climb if you fall, and this isn't so on James' new line, so arguably this could have been given a "traditional" grade of E9...
Just one man's opinion, have a think about it.
In reply to Creinu:
The H grade is not new. John Arran wrote about it at Planet Fear.
Also prior to that Neil Bentley, after his ascent of Equilibrium suggested something similar in an article in Climb magazine.
None of these suggestions have gained any momentum until now...
Now we have had multiple discussions at the UKC forums about this issue.... UKC News reports about grades here. These have been picked up by Jack Geldard, Adam Wainright (Climber mag), and Neil Gresham (Climber mag) who have all wrote articles about the E grade problem - indeed if there is one.
Dave MacLeod has also written about it, as has Steve McClure.
There are several alternatives to E - grades being discussed, mainly based on the American danger grades, R, R/X, X .... which was introduced in the 80's by the YMC with there P1, P2, P3...
Lots of food for thought Creinu.
I grading round table has been suggested recently, attended by those operating at the higher levels to discuss openly the grade issue.
Mick
The H grade is not new. John Arran wrote about it at Planet Fear.
Also prior to that Neil Bentley, after his ascent of Equilibrium suggested something similar in an article in Climb magazine.
None of these suggestions have gained any momentum until now...
Now we have had multiple discussions at the UKC forums about this issue.... UKC News reports about grades here. These have been picked up by Jack Geldard, Adam Wainright (Climber mag), and Neil Gresham (Climber mag) who have all wrote articles about the E grade problem - indeed if there is one.
Dave MacLeod has also written about it, as has Steve McClure.
There are several alternatives to E - grades being discussed, mainly based on the American danger grades, R, R/X, X .... which was introduced in the 80's by the YMC with there P1, P2, P3...
Lots of food for thought Creinu.
I grading round table has been suggested recently, attended by those operating at the higher levels to discuss openly the grade issue.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Don't forget the 'I dunno' grade for us idiots to understand too that I suggested!
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
........and let's not forget, in this rush for recognition and credit in the media for raising this issue, the austere Fell and Rock Climbing Club and their French grade next to the E grade in their Langdale guidebook.
Maybe that is one answer.
........and let's not forget, in this rush for recognition and credit in the media for raising this issue, the austere Fell and Rock Climbing Club and their French grade next to the E grade in their Langdale guidebook.
Maybe that is one answer.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I think guide books should make it more obvious that these grades are guesses and the first onsight ascent should be stated as a much more important thing. If james enjoys doing this than fair enough, good effort, but if it's detracting from the achievements of hard onsightists then i think we need to re-evalutate how these ascents are reported and recorded.
In reply to Franco Cookson: i find myself agreeing with you - strange feeling. anyway, i cant help but feel that the trad onsight is a far greater prize than the trad headpoint and should be far more widely reported and respected than seems to be the case.
James McCaffie springs to mind as a good example of someone who values the trad onsight highly, possibly above other ascent styles (i think he's well on his way to onsighting 50 E7s)?
the hard headpoints that are getting done are hugely impressive but they dont seem to capture the essence of trad (or the imagination) in the same way that an onsight of stuff like The Bells, The Bells!, Raped by Affection or Master's Edge does.
James McCaffie springs to mind as a good example of someone who values the trad onsight highly, possibly above other ascent styles (i think he's well on his way to onsighting 50 E7s)?
the hard headpoints that are getting done are hugely impressive but they dont seem to capture the essence of trad (or the imagination) in the same way that an onsight of stuff like The Bells, The Bells!, Raped by Affection or Master's Edge does.
In reply to ksjs: Another point that isn't really related is the reporting on here. that chap Ioan's E7 onsight wasn't reported at all where as that dodgey ascent of braille trail direct (at E9) was. Admittedly it was an FA, but still he was a year younger and E7 onsight is probably a greater achievement than E9 headpoint.
In reply to ksjs and franco:
the current ukb thread on the matter has some very good points on the 'these onsighters aren't getting the kudos they 'deserve'' issue.. can't link as my pc at home doesn't open ukb for some reason...
the current ukb thread on the matter has some very good points on the 'these onsighters aren't getting the kudos they 'deserve'' issue.. can't link as my pc at home doesn't open ukb for some reason...
In reply to abarro81: i'm having the same issueat home with UKB too.....annoying
In reply to ksjs: I would say that E8/E9 should be getting onsighted regularly if you look at the equivalent french grade of a lot of them....the problem is that the people climbing tyechnically much more difficult sport routes or bouldering just ain't interested....its a shame really.....Steve showed with his quick repeat of Rhapsody what someone who is climbing 8c/8c+ is capable of...
In reply to Franco Cookson: what E7 did Ioan onsight?
In reply to ksjs: A Wreath of Deadly Nightshade.
now forgive me if i'm wrong, but is that not one of the most news-worthy events this year? An 18 year old onsighting E7?
compare this to George ullrich, who i have nothing against- nice guy, helped us out ect, very good climber obviously. But reporting his E8/9 repeats is probably quite good- i am certainly interested that there has been some action in the lakes, but why did UKC miss such news as an E7 onsight?
now forgive me if i'm wrong, but is that not one of the most news-worthy events this year? An 18 year old onsighting E7?
compare this to George ullrich, who i have nothing against- nice guy, helped us out ect, very good climber obviously. But reporting his E8/9 repeats is probably quite good- i am certainly interested that there has been some action in the lakes, but why did UKC miss such news as an E7 onsight?
In reply to Franco Cookson:
At a guess because ioan couldn't be bothered reporting it.
> (In reply to ksjs) A Wreath of Deadly Nightshade.
> why did UKC miss such news as an E7 onsight?
> why did UKC miss such news as an E7 onsight?
At a guess because ioan couldn't be bothered reporting it.
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Yes, what with all these hard routes being headpointed, hardly anyone seems to have any interest in hearing about/watching/doing hard onsights anymore...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=324740&v=1#x4789408
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com) I think guide books should make it more obvious that these grades are guesses and the first onsight ascent should be stated as a much more important thing. If james enjoys doing this than fair enough, good effort, but if it's detracting from the achievements of hard onsightists then i think we need to re-evalutate how these ascents are reported and recorded.
Yes, what with all these hard routes being headpointed, hardly anyone seems to have any interest in hearing about/watching/doing hard onsights anymore...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=324740&v=1#x4789408
In reply to Franco Cookson: now im scraping my memory here but is "A Wreath..." not considered serious / tricky at E7 and has it not thwarted good climbers i.e. very definitely merits special mention? i guess though if Ioan hasnt reported it then its now going to be news. respect to Ioan.
In reply to alicia: iy, and how many films about headpointing are there?
In reply to ksjs:
i believe it's considered e6/7 (going on the gogarth wiki)
i believe it's considered e6/7 (going on the gogarth wiki)
In reply to north country boy: the fact that Steve made such short work of this and the fact that he is a world class sport climber raises many questions about the trad grades proposed. all the posts and speculation in the world wont though resolve these issues, it will take multiple repeats of the routes concerned and i guess thats not about to happen.
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Read the notice about the Onsight premiere, note the words "sell out", then think about whether or not that suggests that no-one cares about onsight ascents anymore.
> (In reply to alicia) iy, and how many films about headpointing are there?
Read the notice about the Onsight premiere, note the words "sell out", then think about whether or not that suggests that no-one cares about onsight ascents anymore.
In reply to abarro81: thanks for correction. maybe i was getting carried away by the name - very evocative
In reply to alicia: iy and i'm sure no other premieres of films have been sellouts. if you cant fill a room full of people to watch a film it isn't going to do very well when it's released.
In reply to Franco Cookson:
what's your point? if a hard onsighter wants kudos/recognition/fame/sponsorship etc they'll report all their ascents to the mags and websites, write a nice mini-article or blog post about it and go back for high quality photos.. if not then they wont do any of this and they'll get less publicity. It works the same for headpointers and onsighters.
what's your point? if a hard onsighter wants kudos/recognition/fame/sponsorship etc they'll report all their ascents to the mags and websites, write a nice mini-article or blog post about it and go back for high quality photos.. if not then they wont do any of this and they'll get less publicity. It works the same for headpointers and onsighters.
In reply to alicia:
Alicia
I'll just correct you there. Please don't take this in a personal way.
The number of replys on a thread does not indicate how popular or well read a thread is, particularly when it is associated with a News item.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=10&year=2008#n45381
Our news page gets about 5,000 views a day on average.
Readers of this site in the majority do not post.
I'll guarantee that the Onsight Premiere will be sold out or nearly because of the exposure it gets on on UKClimbing.com AND also because of the anticipation of this film.
This premiere has not only been announced on the forums, but the News page as linked above.
In Premier Posts http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=322108 and in last weeks newsletter... http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/weekly.html
There are only a few of us who actually understand how this site works.
Mick
Collectively the Onsight premiere messages have had over 70,000 eyeballs on them ... not all unique .. but I'm sure you get the jist...
> (In reply to Franco Cookson)
> [...]
>
> Yes, what with all these hard routes being headpointed, hardly anyone seems to have any interest in hearing about/watching/doing hard onsights anymore...
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=324740&v=1#x4789408
> [...]
>
> Yes, what with all these hard routes being headpointed, hardly anyone seems to have any interest in hearing about/watching/doing hard onsights anymore...
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=324740&v=1#x4789408
Alicia
I'll just correct you there. Please don't take this in a personal way.
The number of replys on a thread does not indicate how popular or well read a thread is, particularly when it is associated with a News item.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=10&year=2008#n45381
Our news page gets about 5,000 views a day on average.
Readers of this site in the majority do not post.
I'll guarantee that the Onsight Premiere will be sold out or nearly because of the exposure it gets on on UKClimbing.com AND also because of the anticipation of this film.
This premiere has not only been announced on the forums, but the News page as linked above.
In Premier Posts http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=322108 and in last weeks newsletter... http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/weekly.html
There are only a few of us who actually understand how this site works.
Mick
Collectively the Onsight premiere messages have had over 70,000 eyeballs on them ... not all unique .. but I'm sure you get the jist...
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
no sarcasm detector today mick?
no sarcasm detector today mick?
In reply to abarro81:
My sarcasm detector knows no bounds ; o )
Next question.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> no sarcasm detector today mick?
> no sarcasm detector today mick?
My sarcasm detector knows no bounds ; o )
Next question.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Hi Mick,
I wasn't actually talking about the number of views or replies to the thread. I was being sarcastic and making the point that selling out all (or nearly all) of the tickets to a film that is entirely about onsighting suggests that, contrary to what Franco was saying, there may indeed yet be some interest among British climbers in onsighting.
Alicia
Hi Mick,
I wasn't actually talking about the number of views or replies to the thread. I was being sarcastic and making the point that selling out all (or nearly all) of the tickets to a film that is entirely about onsighting suggests that, contrary to what Franco was saying, there may indeed yet be some interest among British climbers in onsighting.
Alicia
In reply to Franco Cookson: I like the purity angle on onsighting which has an interesting resonance on the yankie culture where trad is onsight free or other wise (think ground up on Big cliffs)
Its worth baring in mind that onsights are possible because someone has cleaned/brushed the rock and demonstrated the routes possibility psychologically that is a big step...
Its worth baring in mind that onsights are possible because someone has cleaned/brushed the rock and demonstrated the routes possibility psychologically that is a big step...
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
What about the people with only one eye?
ALC
>
> Collectively the Onsight premiere messages have had over 70,000 eyeballs on them ... not all unique .. but I'm sure you get the jist...
> Collectively the Onsight premiere messages have had over 70,000 eyeballs on them ... not all unique .. but I'm sure you get the jist...
What about the people with only one eye?
ALC
In reply to a lakeland climber:
Or blind people using a screen reader?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_Access_With_Speech
Or blind people using a screen reader?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_Access_With_Speech
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Who bumped this thread? Anyway now that it's been bumped...
A couple of points for the record with regards to Steve McClure on Rhapsody (which Steve has acknowledged but others seem to have missed).
While I have no doubt that he could have climbed Rhapsody in the same style, with a similar sequence, as Macleod or Trotter if he'd spent a little more time on it...
Steve didn't place the gear on the lead like Sonnie, his ascent was more like doing a sport route missing the last two clips. Placing the gear would probably have made no difference and I understand why he didn't bother but it would have been nice to know for sure.
(For those that don't know Dave place the gear on the lead and down climbed to the start of the route to rest a while before climbing the whole route to the top with the gear and rope in place. Sonnie placed the gear on the lead and climbed to the top in one push with a prolonged shake-out at the last gear and good holds.)
The photographs I've seen suggest Steve finished the route to the left of where Dave and Sonnie finished. This may have been a harder sequence or it may have been an easier sequence - I don't know - it was different and that along with the gear placing may be why he didn't feel like he got the E11 experience.
Dave’s belayer was on the ground in the position used by Sonnie and Steve on the day he climbed the route, so he too climbed the route with the extra weight of rope but luckily did get the benifit on the fall.
Yes, I know this has no bearing on James' E12 but just goes to show the comparing different ascents of even the same climb is like comparing apples with oranges (gram for gram apples have more calories).
Who bumped this thread? Anyway now that it's been bumped...
A couple of points for the record with regards to Steve McClure on Rhapsody (which Steve has acknowledged but others seem to have missed).
While I have no doubt that he could have climbed Rhapsody in the same style, with a similar sequence, as Macleod or Trotter if he'd spent a little more time on it...
Steve didn't place the gear on the lead like Sonnie, his ascent was more like doing a sport route missing the last two clips. Placing the gear would probably have made no difference and I understand why he didn't bother but it would have been nice to know for sure.
(For those that don't know Dave place the gear on the lead and down climbed to the start of the route to rest a while before climbing the whole route to the top with the gear and rope in place. Sonnie placed the gear on the lead and climbed to the top in one push with a prolonged shake-out at the last gear and good holds.)
The photographs I've seen suggest Steve finished the route to the left of where Dave and Sonnie finished. This may have been a harder sequence or it may have been an easier sequence - I don't know - it was different and that along with the gear placing may be why he didn't feel like he got the E11 experience.
Dave’s belayer was on the ground in the position used by Sonnie and Steve on the day he climbed the route, so he too climbed the route with the extra weight of rope but luckily did get the benifit on the fall.
Yes, I know this has no bearing on James' E12 but just goes to show the comparing different ascents of even the same climb is like comparing apples with oranges (gram for gram apples have more calories).
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