UKH

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

A curious article with some inconsistencies e.g. the TD Gap is described as both Severe and V.Diff (when really it is generally agreed to be the former). Also the recommendation of a north-south traverse in the summer is strange. Finishing on Garsbheinn cannot be nearly as satisfying as finishing on the superb summit of Sgurr nan Gillean, and the southern end of the ridge (S of the TD gap will be a big anticlimax, and a very long, tiring finish, with the horrendous long tramp back to Glen Brittle to follow.) Also, it misses out most of the best rock pitches on the route.

Also, I for one - and am sure many will agree - don't like the recent re-naming of Collie's Ledge as Hart's Ledge (even if the latter really did do it a year before Collie). It's a bit like suddenly saying that Kelly's Overhang should be renamed Wood's Overhang (because Morley Wood made the first ascent and Kelly had merely tried it)

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Agree about the choice of direction, also the suggestion to approach the ridge, then head along the ridge to Sgurr nan Gillean only to come back seems less satisfying than starting on the first peak & traversing to the last. I also not convinced about two days rather than one day with a light sac - I wasn't especially fit when I managed the traverse in a day


and he doesn't mention your book

In reply to Doug:

I don't mind about that at all - it's out of print now, for one thing (though another reprint is presently being discussed)

Yes, general consensus is that a one-day push is the best bet with optional classic bivvy on Gars-bheinn (i.e. go up the evening before, and bivvy for a few hours until first light using a v lightweight sleeping bag that can be compressed into the bottom of your smallish sack.)

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
>Finishing on Garsbheinn cannot be nearly as satisfying as finishing on >the superb summit of Sgurr nan Gillean

I agree. Standing on the summit of Sgurr nan Gillean at the end of the traverse was perhaps the best moment out of the very best day I have ever had in the mountains.

Cheers
Mark

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Hmmm, he mentions Severe exactly twice (once as a general guide to ability for the traverse, and once for the pitch up the short side, which seems consistent with currently accepted practice?). But think you might like the new SMC guide...


Agreed, but not 'wrong'.


Not me! So I'm with the SMC here in seeing Hart as a significant and very capable contributer (for this, amongst other things) who deserves his due when Collie generally receives his.

In reply to Mark Westerman:
Standing on the summit of Sgurr nan Gillean at the end of the traverse was perhaps the best moment out of the very best day I have ever had in the mountains.


Ditto! But the long trudge down in the dark towards the distant lights of Sligachan (which never seemed to get any closer) was monotous and tiring, particularly as I developed a terrible thirst!!

In reply to petestack:

He also says the standard of the ridge is never more than V Diff and near the end of the article says explicitly tht the TD Gap is V Diff.

Re. new guide. I think the very polished TD Gap should be given (at least) Hard Severe, so hope that's what you mean ...

Agreed

It just seems a pity to change such a long-standing traditional name.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Better be careful what I say when I've only just met the author (Noel Williams and myself dropped in on Mike Lates after a day out on Blaven last Thursday with a recent ascent of King's Chimney amongst other things in mind), but can't see any harm in suggesting that his own downloadable PDF should give you some idea of what to expect:

http://www.skyeguides.co.uk/Downloads/2007_Ridge_Download.pdf

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

North to South is easier to guide, because many of the difficulties are abseiled and the guide can solo down. But south to north is easier for those who are not good rock climbers. Personally I prefer keeping Collie's Ledge

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: i think it all depends on the weather you get ,when I was on it it was 80 degrees and blue sky for 2 days, i know it sounds far fetched , but it is true,and i,m sure not many would have done it in the one day in those conditions..water was the biggest problem,,solved by a tongue of snow just down the ridge a little way from the Inn Pin..this was in June about 10 years ago

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
is the shop at the campsite at Glen Brittle really always open? as in 24 hours?

In reply to chiz: no

On my attempt (aborted at the Bhasteir Tooth due to snowfall) we carried a pair of rock shoes for the leader. I was only a VS leader then, so climbing polished, potentially wet basalt in big boots would have been a slow & steady job. I figured that the time saving and reduction of difficulty/risk afforded by being able to climb the TD Gap very fast outweighed the time lost slipping them on and then off again. It worked for me - I think I probably put them on for one of the other rock pitches too.

What cost us a lot of time (half an hour!) was some beardy old guy having a dump in the middle of a gully that we had to down-climb. He didn't seem aware of us, and we didn't want to just climb over him whilst he was squatting there blocking the path, but unfortunately he seemed to be having a lot of trouble going....

In reply to drunken monkey:
thought not!

The idea of North - South is bizarre. The idea that you wouldnt finish with a few pints of Red Cuillin is beyond me.

Seems to be several different opinions.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Agree with the direction - it should be compulsory to start on Garsbheinn as all the good climbing is in this direction. The TD gap is (Scottish)V Diff going this way & you abseil down the Severe side. Finishing at the Sligachan before closing time is a bonus! I vote to stick with Collie's ledge.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

great article Jon, makes me want it to be spring right now and head up there

In reply to Trangia:

Although a few pints of Cuillin Conqueror in the Sligachan managed to cure my first.
cheers
mark

In reply to petemeads:

As Andy Nisbet states, and as is mentioned in the article, it is supposedly easier to guide a party going from N - S. This article, in a different form, has been on the web for a while now and it was fairly obvious from the original that it was about guided parties. I've not seen many non-guided parties take helmets for example.

Thus the recommendation to take two days and the comment about this having a higher success rate than one day attempts. Most outside the guiding profession would reckon that the success ratio was higher for one day attempts, no figures to back this up of course but a search on here for threads about the ridge certainly gives this impression. (I'm not a statistician so won't comment on the representational nature of this UKC sample)

Otherwise the basic tenets of the piece are about right: get fit; get mentally prepared and get lucky with the weather.

ALC

PS. He forgot a camera from the kit list!

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Ah happy memories.

Twenty years ago I "accidentally" did a S to N traverse.

A good friend of mine (Dave Wynne-Jones) and I went up to Skye for a week of climbing and scrambling at Whit Week. We arrived very late in the evening and of course slept in the next morning. When we did get up it was a fantastic sunny day - not a common occurrence in that part of the world! So we decided to go and explore the ridge to get accustomed to the environment.

We climbed to the top of Gars-bheinn about lunch time and thought we'd go north for a few hours to get a feel for how we were going. We had day hill food and water and no bivi gear at all. Equipment wise we had a single 45m 9mm and two slings and Karabiners each, of which two were HMS.

Anyway, to cut a long and potentially boring story short, we made it as far as the In-Pinn by about 8pm. After abseiling off we looked at each other and agreed that we felt well and the weather looked good. The only problem was we were very short of water and we had only a little food left. Despite this we decided to press on for a while rather than descend to our tent at Glen Brittle. Soon after we stopped just north of Sgurr Thormaid. We then "endured" a very cold bivi in just the clothes we had with us. I don't think I slept at all sitting upright leaning against a small rock face.

The dawn came mercifully early at around 3:30am and we ate the last of our food, in my case three digestive biscuits and a Kraft Cheese slice!! The last of the water went down too.

On we went reaching An Dorus soon where we found a small amount of hard old snow. We pushed this into our water bottles and then put them down our jackets to melt.

The rest of the ridge is a bit of a blur due to being dehydrated and hungry!

We finally arrived at Sgurr nan Gillean at 09:00ish, just in time to meet some early day walkers arriving.

On the way down we guzzled gallons (or so it felt) of water from a burn and arrived exhausted at Sligachan. I remember celebrating with a pint and being so hungry it went straight to my head and I had to sit down! Dave hitched a lift back to Glen Brittle to collect the car and come and get me.

So, our little adventure was successful, but I recognise that it was certainly "on a knife edge". I wouldn't recommend anyone going with that little kit, food or water!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Oh I don't know - I think finishing on Gars Bheinn could be wonderful. From the TD Gap/Dubhs all the difficulties would be behind you, so you could relax and enjoy your achievement and the rest of the traverse knowing it is pretty much in the bag. Also, you face out to sea, with space, mountains and water all around, and walk until there is no more ridge to walk, and only the islands and blue horizon ahead. In my experience (e.g. after the Dubh slabs/ridge) it's given an exhilarating, optimistic and uplifting finish to the day. (Admittedly, descending Gars Bheinn is not particularly nice).

Re getting back to Glenbrittle, you could stay at Coruisk (hut or camping).

In reply to Jimmy D:

You could leave your kit at the col at the head of Coire Ghrunnda (sp?), nip along to Gars Bheinn then return. A much nicer descent than the screes of Gars Bheinn and the coire has some great glacial scenery.

ALC

In reply to Jimmy D:

Yes, the descent is not so good .... But I agree with you that the southern end of the ridge makes a superb finish to the Dubhs ridge - we did exactly as you describe and then bivvied on Gars Bheinn so that I could take pictures of the dawn.

But re the main ridge, I am sure a lot of it would feel 'the wrong way round' taken N-S compared with the way the best rock pitches come up when it's done the conventional summer way from S-N: e.g the ascent of King's chimney, then the ascent of An Stac culminating in the In Pin and the ab down the west ridge to the summit of Sgurr Dearg. Then much later there's the stupendous Naismith's Route up the Basteir Tooth then on to the summit of Am Basteir. Then the very fitting finale up the elegant west ridge of SNG (one of the very best summits in Britain, I think).

Indeed, then it would make a lot more sense.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Yes, the usual way is much better from a climbing point of view and would, on balance, be my own preferred choice.

In reply to Jimmy D:

North-south certainly starts with a bit of a jolt with Gilean, and doesn't really let up in scrambling terms for any distance til Bannadich, but the proper climbing is 'backwards' or missed out. It would give you a more relaxing end to the day though, whereas Naismiths and Gilean could be the last straw.

Is there a way of going north-south without a rope without having to solo-downclimb the TD gap? we couldn't work out a way past Alasdair/TD gap except via reversing the Bad Step or the chimney, and I didn't think they'd be too easy to find from above?

I'd also have mentioned the spring above Coir' a Grundha as a potential water source -either for a pre-attempt evening bivvy, or after the TD gap if going north-south. I think its normally live, was in may when half the burns were dry and the lochan was half empty. If going north-south with your last water at Bannadich (or potentially Fion Coir) it could be good to know about.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


the monster that is UKC - never one way or opinion for anything is there ...

good reading though !

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: To be honest I find the article disappointing. Its a very difficult job to do something like this well especially as like most alpine length expeditions moving fast and light is much more important than people realise (being tired on unprotected scrambles with a big pack is not clever). You certainly don't need to be fit (I wasn't and that was on a single day push onsight and I was carrying a knee injury as well) although climbing fitness and an ability to solo VD in approach shoes is a big benefit. The advice I got from you and others on this site about how to be fast & lightweight was invaluable. Oh and I think the TD gap is VD on the easy side (maybe he means severe going south) although I couldn't feel my fingers when I climbed it.

In reply to Andy Nisbet: I'd say its essential, not a preference. The names important routes have should stay put, albeit with the corrected FA info added.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
Everyone I have ever spoken to about the traverse has different advice to offer. I have been reliably informed by a Skye Guide (think it was Mike Patterson) that a 30m length of rope is enough to do everything if you're canny. Or was it 40m? God my memory's terrible!

In reply to Offwidth:

I agree with all you say (especially the bit about my 'invaluable advice' ), except the bit about the TD gap. We've argued about this before, I know. Either it's about the hardest V Diff in the world or I was having a very bad day.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Shouldn't you all be involved in a dialogue rather than an argument? In a dialogue or even a discussion joint conclusions can be reached. In an argument all you get is willy waiving.....and bad feeling.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Seems like well-informed discussion to me, much more that most threads. Anyways, when was the last time we had a discussion leading to a conclusion on UKC? Seriously, I'd like to know.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Mick, you've completely misjudged that post. I am a very good friend of Steve, meet up with him quite frequently, and have spent quite few days on the crag with him. We are not really 'arguing' at all. Simply disagreeing about a rather trivial point. Typically with Steve I am in about 99% agreement with him.

In reply to jhenryb:

As you say, a constructive, well-informed discussion all round, and good-natured with it. And BTW, since when was admitting you found a v diff hard 'willy waving', ffs? !! The only person on the thread so far who seems to be doing any willy waving is Mick, with his rather uncalled-for admonishment.

In reply to jhenryb:

Actually, Mick might be right after all, because I see he's spelt it willy waiving which presumably means something like 'forgetting or ignoring the fact that you've got any balls' - which is probably why I found the TD gap quite hard for 'V Diff' ... )

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Great new concept - willy waiving! If I do it hard enough will they let me in the Pinnacle Club?

In reply to jhenryb:

Yes, but to be sure of success, be very gentle and unobtrusive - think floppy and soft. Forget the word hard.

In reply to a lakeland climber: I had not picked up a bias towards guided traverses from the article, although the references to avoiding the technical sections by abseil did not escape me. I suspect it would be easier to guide a party down the Indian Face than up it using this technique!
One thing I would add is that hopefuls should practise climbing in trainers or Walshes (fell-running shoes) in order to save the hassle (weight, discomfort, slowness) associated with boots. Otherwise I agree it is a good piece, and helpful if it makes candidates think about just how much water needs to be carried.

In reply to Offwidth:

Why?


In case someone can't find it, or what? That might make it your preference, but it's clearly not essential or it wouldn't have been renamed.

In reply to petestack:

Er, names don't work that way. One or two people have tried to rename it. We'll just have to see what happens, because at the end of the day a name is an identifying label, and most people couldn't care a damn why something is called what it is, providing it is consistently called what it is, to avoid confusion. Therein lies the rub.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

>and most people couldn't care a damn why something is called what it is, providing it is consistently called what it is, to avoid confusion

Try telling Donald Morris that, he wants everything back in old Gaelic.

Now what is Pinnacle Ridge in Gaelic?

In reply to sutty:

i am more or less certain that it has no name in Gaelic. Also (though I'm just going off the top of my head, from what I can remember), that 'Sgurr nan Gillean' was quite a modern invention in Victorian times i.e. it was more or less a nameless peak up until then. It means 'Peak of the Young Men/Gillies' and the strong implication is that the Gillies referred to were Forbes and his mates who made the first ascent c.1840.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Nope, it's a bit more than that, it's now the 'approved' SMC version (as in their Skye Scrambles and forthcoming rock guide revision) and has also made its way into the new edition of Classic Rock. But I know who started it, and I'm with him all the way here...


Yep, fair point.


But I can think of other similar cases, like some of Ken Johnson's routes at Polldubh that got inadvertently claimed and renamed by Klaus Schwartz for his guides and have since been restored. So, like you say, let's see what happens.

In reply to petestack:

I think a) it's likely to cause a huge amount of confusion (what arrogance indeed to think that all visitors will necessarily herewith come armed with the latest guidebook), and b) it's arrogance indeed to think that a guidebook is some kind of normative guru as a opposed to being an honest reporter.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

So who are you accusing of arrogance, Gordon? Me, the person who started the Hart's Ledge thing, the SMC or all of us?

I like it, you don't, but I'd never dream of accusing you of arrogance! :-/

In reply to petestack:

Oh, phewee. I'm not remotely interested in reducing this to a personal level. Just simply saying that any act of renaming (whoever does it) is 'arrogant'. The word 'arrogant' quite simply means, in its Latin derivation, 'claiming for oneself'.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

OK, maybe I misunderstood you, but neither am I, so let's leave it there.

In reply to petestack:

Gordon is right, you can't go renaming something that has another name in all preceding guides and maps, unless you also rename it on the maps as well. Sometimes you have to let sleeping dogs lie.

In reply to Will Hunt:



Perhaps because the 'best' way to do the traverse will differ according to your strengths.

The original article has possibly reasonable advice for strong hill-walkers who are weak climbers. If I had followed its advice I’d have failed. Two days slog carrying all that cr*p (leather gloves… WTF!), no thanks...

I mostly did the opposite: went South to North, soloed, wore Walshes, took no kit other than a pacamac (if it rains you're going to bail and it's only a couple of hours to the road), and I'd never been on the ridge before. The main thing I would agree with is to take lots of water: I had 4 litres and it wasn’t enough for me.

This style worked for me as it minimised my weakness (negligible hill fitness) by carrying nothing and played to my strengths (happy soloing all day). My tactics wouldn’t work for people needing to hire an instructor that the original article seems to have been aimed at.

Think about what style will work best for you.

Have fun, it’s a great day out.

In reply to petestack:

I'll give you a case in point: at Wharncliffe about 100 routes were established by 1900 and yet only a handful retain their original name. The current names contain much history, humour and intelligence aside from Gordon's point of familiarity (which is the most important).

In my view climbing names are sort of community owned: the climbs give rise to experiences latched for ever in tandem with their names in peoples brains. So guidebook commitees playing with names out of some kind of historical political correctness is to me anything in a range from silly to infuriating. Of course FA lists should always be ammended accordingly. Also correct established names in earlier guides are often best restored (maybe best with a joint name if both sets were well known)

So think on the thousands who have climbed Collie's Ledge and consider what they will feel about the name change.

In reply to petestack:

There is no SMC approved version. It's just up to the author of each guide. If Hart's Ledge becomes the common usage, then it will stick. If Collie's Ledge is used, then it will re-appear

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Note the quote marks round 'approved'.


Fair enough.

In reply to victorclimber: Remember it well !!!

This article was originally published in 2008. It's been revamped for 2011, and includes some stunning photographs from the UKC user gallery.

Cheers, Sarah