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That's a first - must be grim up there !
In reply to indalo:
Good grief!... There's a weather warning in force for Cumbria tonight. It's only going to get worse by the sounds of it.
...Still, bunch of bloody pansies; I'd have made them do it in wetsuits.
I wonder if anybody's told Lummox and MJH?
Good grief!... There's a weather warning in force for Cumbria tonight. It's only going to get worse by the sounds of it.
...Still, bunch of bloody pansies; I'd have made them do it in wetsuits.
I wonder if anybody's told Lummox and MJH?
In reply to indalo:
Sounds horrendous, the car park at the TOP of Honister under water, wonder how many competitors cars will be under water in the valley?
Loking at the weather map it looks like the rain will get worse overnight and nobody will be able to escape till tomorrow night at least. The epic may only just be starting.
Sounds horrendous, the car park at the TOP of Honister under water, wonder how many competitors cars will be under water in the valley?
Loking at the weather map it looks like the rain will get worse overnight and nobody will be able to escape till tomorrow night at least. The epic may only just be starting.
In reply to sutty:
Alas, poor Lummox, we knew him well... At the going down of the sun and the retreating of the waters we will remember him.
Alas, poor Lummox, we knew him well... At the going down of the sun and the retreating of the waters we will remember him.
In reply to Clauso:
LOL, serves him right;
Saturday 25 October WEATHER WARNING Heavy rain and Severe gales will affect northern Britain today. Western Scotland, northwest England and northwest Wales will have the heaviest rain with 40 to 60mm falling here and even more over the hills. Driving conditions will be dangerous and local flooding is possible.
The strongest winds, with gusts of up to 70-80mph, are expected over the Highlands, Northern and Western Isles and may cause disruption. The potentially damaging winds may spread to other northern areas during the day. Valid until 2300BST.
They will do a roaring trade hiring the rowing boats off Derwentw*ter to get people out of the valley.
Do the AA and RAC have boats to go out to people in floods?
LOL, serves him right;
Saturday 25 October WEATHER WARNING Heavy rain and Severe gales will affect northern Britain today. Western Scotland, northwest England and northwest Wales will have the heaviest rain with 40 to 60mm falling here and even more over the hills. Driving conditions will be dangerous and local flooding is possible.
The strongest winds, with gusts of up to 70-80mph, are expected over the Highlands, Northern and Western Isles and may cause disruption. The potentially damaging winds may spread to other northern areas during the day. Valid until 2300BST.
They will do a roaring trade hiring the rowing boats off Derwentw*ter to get people out of the valley.
Do the AA and RAC have boats to go out to people in floods?
In reply to sutty:
I've just been on to the mountain rescue to request, should they happen to locate him, that they put Lummox out of his misery by administering a lethal injection. It's for the best.
I've just been on to the mountain rescue to request, should they happen to locate him, that they put Lummox out of his misery by administering a lethal injection. It's for the best.
In reply to indalo: Bad news. Two guys from our club were after winning the Elite and becoming the first pair ever to win the Elite categories at all the major MM's. They'll be gutted, but sounds like Jen Longbottom had no option really.
In reply to sutty: thats sounds mental the conditions the guys were taking part in, however the sunny side of the story can prob seen in uk rivers guide book
In reply to IainRUK:
I guess a lot of teams will be gutted, I'm sure many would have completed but as you say - probably the only way to go.
I guess a lot of teams will be gutted, I'm sure many would have completed but as you say - probably the only way to go.
In reply to eirenutter:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7691020.stm
This was the other day, and that is the road out of the valley;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7688737.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7691020.stm
This was the other day, and that is the road out of the valley;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7688737.stm
In reply to Clauso:
Alas, poor Lummox, we knew him well... At the going down of the sun and the retreating of the waters we will find him.
> (In reply to sutty)
>
> Alas, poor Lummox, we knew him well... At the going down of the sun and the retreating of the waters we will remember him.
>
> Alas, poor Lummox, we knew him well... At the going down of the sun and the retreating of the waters we will remember him.
Alas, poor Lummox, we knew him well... At the going down of the sun and the retreating of the waters we will find him.
In reply to sutty: Sorry for making light out of something, Thats madness. I hope the teams aired on the side of sense and carried extra food. water doesnt seem to be an issue. :P
In reply to eirenutter:
LOL, did you not read the other thread where they were told to bring their own water for the hill as they did not think they would have enough in the bowsers?
LOL, did you not read the other thread where they were told to bring their own water for the hill as they did not think they would have enough in the bowsers?
In reply to indalo: reached bbc news 24, the via ferrata guy was suggesting locals with buses to phone him to help get people off the mountain.
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:
BBC now saying 300 people sheltering at Honister Slate Mine!
> (In reply to indalo) reached bbc news 24, the via ferrata guy was suggesting locals with buses to phone him to help get people off the mountain.
BBC now saying 300 people sheltering at Honister Slate Mine!
In reply to JB:
I reckon the Youth hostels that are not flooded will be busy tonight, and the other high lying places taking in locals as well. just said 40mm in last 24 hours and 70mm expected overnight on the tv.
I reckon the Youth hostels that are not flooded will be busy tonight, and the other high lying places taking in locals as well. just said 40mm in last 24 hours and 70mm expected overnight on the tv.
In reply to indalo:
The weather was horrific this morning when I left the HQ, and that's before it really came in.
Got a lot of close family and friends doing it this year and to be honest I'm a wee bit concerned for them
Would appreciate it if any one could share news if they hear anything
C x
The weather was horrific this morning when I left the HQ, and that's before it really came in.
Got a lot of close family and friends doing it this year and to be honest I'm a wee bit concerned for them
Would appreciate it if any one could share news if they hear anything
C x
In reply to indalo:
I've just been watching the BBC News 24 coverage. They seem to be desperate to get a competitor to say it should never have gone ahead! The people they spoke to seemed to disappoint them. The owner of the slate mine was very obliging though - he was full of condemnation. I'm sure every single competitor would take responsibility for themselves. It would be a shame if the mine owner's views hold sway.
I've just been watching the BBC News 24 coverage. They seem to be desperate to get a competitor to say it should never have gone ahead! The people they spoke to seemed to disappoint them. The owner of the slate mine was very obliging though - he was full of condemnation. I'm sure every single competitor would take responsibility for themselves. It would be a shame if the mine owner's views hold sway.
In reply to caroleb:
Reports of some people being taken to hospital with hypothemia are coming through. Let's hope everyone is ok. If the event had to be hit by weather this bad then the Lakes is as good as any for it to happen, you are never too far from a road.
Reports of some people being taken to hospital with hypothemia are coming through. Let's hope everyone is ok. If the event had to be hit by weather this bad then the Lakes is as good as any for it to happen, you are never too far from a road.
In reply to jonnie: The news coverage has wound me up big time, they're desperate to see someone swing for it.
In reply to JB:
Last I heard the hospitals were treating a grand total of, erm, 1 person.
Luckily, most people who take part in these sorts of things are pretty experienced and know how to look after themselves. I wonder if they'd have chosen to go out in those conditions without the OMM though?
Last I heard the hospitals were treating a grand total of, erm, 1 person.
Luckily, most people who take part in these sorts of things are pretty experienced and know how to look after themselves. I wonder if they'd have chosen to go out in those conditions without the OMM though?
In reply to JB:
Just had a phone call from my other half who has found refuge in a pub! I suspect a large bar bill!
To quote: "the weather is totally bonkers!"
Just had a phone call from my other half who has found refuge in a pub! I suspect a large bar bill!
To quote: "the weather is totally bonkers!"
In reply to indalo: Just heard Shane Ohly on the news. Legend.
In reply to indalo: Sounds horrendous. Having said which the BBC website story is pretty poor reporting and shows a lot of ignorance.
We (me and Fat Matt) didn't even make it to the start as my flight from Brussels to Manchester got cancelled. I was so p*ssed off last night, now feel quite relieved!
Hope everyone is OK.
We (me and Fat Matt) didn't even make it to the start as my flight from Brussels to Manchester got cancelled. I was so p*ssed off last night, now feel quite relieved!
Hope everyone is OK.
In reply to MJH: Just watched the 8pm news, the reporting is gradually getting a bit more balanced!
In reply to MJH:
Hm, he seemed keen to try and persuade the Ambulance Service member to say that she thought it shouldn't have gone ahead - wasn't what she said at all. The last few photos on SM look grim though.
I'm looking forward to people letting us know they're ok. I'm so pleased with my decision to pull out at the last minute.
> (In reply to indalo) Sounds horrendous. Having said which the BBC website story is pretty poor reporting and shows a lot of ignorance.
Hm, he seemed keen to try and persuade the Ambulance Service member to say that she thought it shouldn't have gone ahead - wasn't what she said at all. The last few photos on SM look grim though.
I'm looking forward to people letting us know they're ok. I'm so pleased with my decision to pull out at the last minute.
In reply to MJH:
Seems the OMM is a "Charity Run" (bbc).
It's probably unrealistic to expect the media and the public at large to understand an event like the omm/kimm - 'why go running in the mountains in appaling weather' ?
Hope everyone's ok and the fuss soon dies down.
Seems the OMM is a "Charity Run" (bbc).
It's probably unrealistic to expect the media and the public at large to understand an event like the omm/kimm - 'why go running in the mountains in appaling weather' ?
Hope everyone's ok and the fuss soon dies down.
In reply to indalo:
If anyone gets news, please post! I'm sure there is no real reason to be anxious, they are a tough lot, and 300 odd in a barn should be cosy-ish, but I'm still worried. Anyone know of other forums that might have news, I can't seem to find any? Not that rumour and supposition on the internet is ever reassuring, though it is a damn sight lot better than the chuffing BBC.
If anyone gets news, please post! I'm sure there is no real reason to be anxious, they are a tough lot, and 300 odd in a barn should be cosy-ish, but I'm still worried. Anyone know of other forums that might have news, I can't seem to find any? Not that rumour and supposition on the internet is ever reassuring, though it is a damn sight lot better than the chuffing BBC.
In reply to chicken: The FRA forum is chatting about it with odds and sods of news - lots of comment on the BBC reporting too!
In reply to indalo:
The KIMM would NEVER have been called off!!
The KIMM would NEVER have been called off!!
In reply to indalo:
Yeah! Galloways circa 1988(?) rings a bell!
> (In reply to Padraig)
>
> Yes but the weather was always fine for the KIMM.
>
> Yes but the weather was always fine for the KIMM.
Yeah! Galloways circa 1988(?) rings a bell!
In reply to indalo:
ta for the forum link, not sure how i missed it. I'm sure they are all holed up with a grim night ahead, and I'm not going to find out anything new tonight, best go away and do something else instead.
ta for the forum link, not sure how i missed it. I'm sure they are all holed up with a grim night ahead, and I'm not going to find out anything new tonight, best go away and do something else instead.
In reply to indalo: Some guy's getting very the up on the Sleepmonsters forum. Some random guy who's upset that his taxes are funding our idiocy. <sarcasm> Seems like a reasonable chap. </sarcasm>
In reply to Padraig:
If everything, including the organisers campsite and vehicles had been floating away then any event would be called off. There may be a lot of written off vehicles in the valley, look at the road here;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/
If everything, including the organisers campsite and vehicles had been floating away then any event would be called off. There may be a lot of written off vehicles in the valley, look at the road here;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/
In reply to Beowulf:
The chap from the Honister Slate mine managed to get in some excellent free advertising for the via ferrata on his BBC interview. I'm sure that wouldn't have influenced his sensationalism.
The chap from the Honister Slate mine managed to get in some excellent free advertising for the via ferrata on his BBC interview. I'm sure that wouldn't have influenced his sensationalism.
In reply to sutty:
For me the most amazing thing so far about this whole episode is that the via ferrata bloke at Honister is saying to the BBC that he cancelled £2500 worth of business on his vf today.
Can we extrapolate that he is coining quarter of a millions pound a year out of this blot on the landscape?
For me the most amazing thing so far about this whole episode is that the via ferrata bloke at Honister is saying to the BBC that he cancelled £2500 worth of business on his vf today.
Can we extrapolate that he is coining quarter of a millions pound a year out of this blot on the landscape?
In reply to Jonathan Lagoe - UKC: His interview did nothing to change my opinions that the via ferratta should be ripped off the hillside, rather the opposite in fact.
In reply to steveP:
Didn't take him long....
http://www.honister-slate-mine.co.uk/honister_slate_mine.asp
> (In reply to Beowulf)
>
> The chap from the Honister Slate mine managed to get in some excellent free advertising for the via ferrata on his BBC interview. I'm sure that wouldn't have influenced his sensationalism.
>
> The chap from the Honister Slate mine managed to get in some excellent free advertising for the via ferrata on his BBC interview. I'm sure that wouldn't have influenced his sensationalism.
Didn't take him long....
http://www.honister-slate-mine.co.uk/honister_slate_mine.asp
In reply to Jonathan Lagoe - UKC:
He will have made 300x £5 maybe off competitors sheltering there and having brews and food so will not be out of pocket. He would have got zilch today if the race had not been on as the road is closed from Keswick.
He will have made 300x £5 maybe off competitors sheltering there and having brews and food so will not be out of pocket. He would have got zilch today if the race had not been on as the road is closed from Keswick.
In reply to Padraig:
"A run"! He quotes it as a feckin' 'run'????!!! He obviously has no idea what the event is about!!
> (In reply to steveP)
> [...]
> [...]
"A run"! He quotes it as a feckin' 'run'????!!! He obviously has no idea what the event is about!!
In reply to dinkypen: I think he obviously has no idea, period.
In reply to Beowulf:
But he does have 'the first via ferrata in britain', and a helicopter, in a hanger so he's more than qualified to comment!!
But he does have 'the first via ferrata in britain', and a helicopter, in a hanger so he's more than qualified to comment!!
In reply to dinkypen:
I know! He his however, doing a nice "I sheltered at VF during the OMM 2008" T shirt cheap!
p
> (In reply to Padraig)
> "A run"! He quotes it as a feckin' 'run'????!!! He obviously has no idea what the event is about!!
I know! He his however, doing a nice "I sheltered at VF during the OMM 2008" T shirt cheap!
p
This is a audio interview with Honister Slate Mine Manager Mark Weir
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/us_elections_2008/7691209.stm
He's talking sense, It would not be difficult for a few hardy mountain walkers to survive the weather, I've gone out in worse and loved every minute of it. But allowing 2000 runners with *minimalist* gear out in that weather is silly. Even though the majority will be able to take care of themselves, the sheer numbers mean that any difficulties are going to overwhelm the emergency services.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/us_elections_2008/7691209.stm
He's talking sense, It would not be difficult for a few hardy mountain walkers to survive the weather, I've gone out in worse and loved every minute of it. But allowing 2000 runners with *minimalist* gear out in that weather is silly. Even though the majority will be able to take care of themselves, the sheer numbers mean that any difficulties are going to overwhelm the emergency services.
In reply to sutty:
no he didnt - he was selling tea at 1 quid a mug and very welcome it was.
people were brewing up on their own stoves inside the cafe and eating their own food as well as tucking into sarnies and pannini and soup.
We were just about to walk down the road to the overnight stop at gatesgarth when we were told it was off. Not by any marhall though
The weather was BAD bit we didnt see anone in trouble (other than my partnre with cramp) but alot of miserable peeps.
the worst is that the road to seathwaute farm was a 2ft river with some cars parked on the side being flooded. We havent even been back as we knew
we couldnt get out. Luckily picked up by friends and at their warm house (in fleece and thermals with stuff drying)
> (In reply to Jonathan Lagoe - UKC)
>
> He will have made 300x £5 maybe off competitors sheltering there and having brews and food so will not be out of pocket. He would have got zilch today if the race had not been on as the road is closed from Keswick.
>
> He will have made 300x £5 maybe off competitors sheltering there and having brews and food so will not be out of pocket. He would have got zilch today if the race had not been on as the road is closed from Keswick.
no he didnt - he was selling tea at 1 quid a mug and very welcome it was.
people were brewing up on their own stoves inside the cafe and eating their own food as well as tucking into sarnies and pannini and soup.
We were just about to walk down the road to the overnight stop at gatesgarth when we were told it was off. Not by any marhall though
The weather was BAD bit we didnt see anone in trouble (other than my partnre with cramp) but alot of miserable peeps.
the worst is that the road to seathwaute farm was a 2ft river with some cars parked on the side being flooded. We havent even been back as we knew
we couldnt get out. Luckily picked up by friends and at their warm house (in fleece and thermals with stuff drying)
In reply to Anonymous: That's rubbish. Look at the Highlander MM each year. Bad weather on the OMM/KIMM is legendary.
This was forecast. Runners would have been prepared, the lack of casualties suggests this was the case.
They had a go, it couldn't happen, good call to cancel, but good call to have a go, that's what MM's are about.
I've been criticised in the past for speaking out against race organisers cancelling events, but in this instance I think they were right; however, that doesn't mean I think they were wrong to have a go.
This was forecast. Runners would have been prepared, the lack of casualties suggests this was the case.
They had a go, it couldn't happen, good call to cancel, but good call to have a go, that's what MM's are about.
I've been criticised in the past for speaking out against race organisers cancelling events, but in this instance I think they were right; however, that doesn't mean I think they were wrong to have a go.
In reply to Anonymous:
Why are you anonymous? Have you ANY idea what mountain marathons are about? If you have, you won't be ashamed to back your post up with your name.
> This is a audio interview with Honister Slate Mine Manager Mark Weir
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/us_elections_2008/7691209.stm
>
> He's talking sense, It would not be difficult for a few hardy mountain walkers to survive the weather, I've gone out in worse and loved every minute of it. But allowing 2000 runners with *minimalist* gear out in that weather is silly. Even though the majority will be able to take care of themselves, the sheer numbers mean that any difficulties are going to overwhelm the emergency services.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/us_elections_2008/7691209.stm
>
> He's talking sense, It would not be difficult for a few hardy mountain walkers to survive the weather, I've gone out in worse and loved every minute of it. But allowing 2000 runners with *minimalist* gear out in that weather is silly. Even though the majority will be able to take care of themselves, the sheer numbers mean that any difficulties are going to overwhelm the emergency services.
Why are you anonymous? Have you ANY idea what mountain marathons are about? If you have, you won't be ashamed to back your post up with your name.
In reply to IainRUK:
Yes I agree, utter rubbish. I'd hardly call a tent, sleeping bags, stove and food "minimalist" for a day out in the Lakes.
Yes I agree, utter rubbish. I'd hardly call a tent, sleeping bags, stove and food "minimalist" for a day out in the Lakes.
In reply to Anonymous:
what was wierder was the people not on the omm going up onpt the fells
and heading up onto the ridges. saw about 4 or 5 people out near Dale Head
(and one white shaggy dog - lost)
the guy serving food had told them they were mad but not us, not a word of critcism from him
what was wierder was the people not on the omm going up onpt the fells
and heading up onto the ridges. saw about 4 or 5 people out near Dale Head
(and one white shaggy dog - lost)
the guy serving food had told them they were mad but not us, not a word of critcism from him
In reply to all: I've set up a page to try and encourage donations to the rescue teams in the Lakes after this years OMM - the details are here:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=326166
Hopefully some others will think this is a good idea, please at least give it some thought.
Nick
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=326166
Hopefully some others will think this is a good idea, please at least give it some thought.
Nick
In reply to indalo:
I've just come back from Langdale, having failed in an attempt to get to my club hut near Blea Tarn. I managed to get as far as the New DG before encountering a flood that I wasn't prepared to risk trying to drive through and then just about managed to get back to the motorway so I could escape and come home. The flooding is looking pretty bad even right near to the motorway. Hope everyone is OK up there - it's looking grim.
I've just come back from Langdale, having failed in an attempt to get to my club hut near Blea Tarn. I managed to get as far as the New DG before encountering a flood that I wasn't prepared to risk trying to drive through and then just about managed to get back to the motorway so I could escape and come home. The flooding is looking pretty bad even right near to the motorway. Hope everyone is OK up there - it's looking grim.
In reply to cathsullivan:
the flood waters where i am (near cockermouth) are receeding. It's
predicted to stop raining sometime tonight - many people are hoping it
will otherwise there'll be a few people off work on monday stuck in
field and trying to get their cars down the lane/river!
the flood waters where i am (near cockermouth) are receeding. It's
predicted to stop raining sometime tonight - many people are hoping it
will otherwise there'll be a few people off work on monday stuck in
field and trying to get their cars down the lane/river!
In reply to dinkypen:
I concur mate.
It seems that everyone is underplaying it all...good work. In a world where so many people look to overplay/over dramatise everything, it's great that the competitors interviewed were really level headed. It just seems that the bloke from the slate mine is the one out for the headlines/publicity.
The huge majority of people taking part (I have been for the last 6 years) know what the event is all about and have a good idea how to look after each other in the hills.
I concur mate.
It seems that everyone is underplaying it all...good work. In a world where so many people look to overplay/over dramatise everything, it's great that the competitors interviewed were really level headed. It just seems that the bloke from the slate mine is the one out for the headlines/publicity.
The huge majority of people taking part (I have been for the last 6 years) know what the event is all about and have a good idea how to look after each other in the hills.
In reply to IainRUK:
"Two guys from our club were after winning the Elite and becoming the first pair ever to win the Elite categories at all the major MM's."
Slightly off-topic Iain, but IIRC a couple of Rossendale guys done that in the late 80's/early 90's??
Can't recall names, BUT they won EVERY MM going for a fair few years. Granted the LAMM wasn't around then.
p
p.s. taking nought away fae from Tim & Chris.
"Two guys from our club were after winning the Elite and becoming the first pair ever to win the Elite categories at all the major MM's."
Slightly off-topic Iain, but IIRC a couple of Rossendale guys done that in the late 80's/early 90's??
Can't recall names, BUT they won EVERY MM going for a fair few years. Granted the LAMM wasn't around then.
p
p.s. taking nought away fae from Tim & Chris.
In reply to Anonymous: Are you Mark Weir?
Do you have any idea what a MM is about? Doesn't sound like it.
Put bluntly everyone who went out today should have been well-prepared for the weather.
Do you have any idea what a MM is about? Doesn't sound like it.
Put bluntly everyone who went out today should have been well-prepared for the weather.
> (In reply to IanRUK
I disagree with you.
The wealthy London types will have been ok, properly attired with the latest in wicking fabrics and breathable outer layers but... There will inevitably be a lot of poor northerners, especially folk from Sheffield who only own one pair of cotton Prana trousers, a sweatshit and an army surplus raincoat, they will have been in trouble, they are the ones you need to think about in advance under these circumstances.
In reply to mat_galvin:
I think we should all post him a 'comment' through his 'Contact Us' page
http://www.honister-slate-mine.co.uk/contact%20us.asp
I think we should all post him a 'comment' through his 'Contact Us' page
http://www.honister-slate-mine.co.uk/contact%20us.asp
In reply to Anonymous:
Slopes? Is that you??!! Aw, I miss you <smooch>
> [...]
> The wealthy London types will have been ok, properly attired with the latest in wicking fabrics and breathable outer layers but... There will inevitably be a lot of poor northerners, especially folk from Sheffield who only own one pair of cotton Prana trousers, a sweatshit and an army surplus raincoat, they will have been in trouble, they are the ones you need to think about in advance under these circumstances.
Slopes? Is that you??!! Aw, I miss you <smooch>
In reply to Padraig: Didn't know that, cheers, maybe it was with the addition of the LAMM then, they also won one of the Euro MM's, either the Swizz MM, or the Euro KIMM, both were won by Eryri (half) teams this year, but I forget which one Tim and Chris won.
In reply to Anonymous: You forget that Northerners are innately more tolerant of cold weather being brought up in cold terraced houses with no heating with outside lavvies.
In reply to IainRUK:
Would have been the Swiss.
Once upon a time the prize for winning the KIMM was an entry and expenses to the Swiss MM and vice versa.
Competed once (badly) in the Swiss as the instructions/checkpoint descriptions were in German!, there was a mass start on day 1, & the temps were in the high 30's!!
p
Would have been the Swiss.
Once upon a time the prize for winning the KIMM was an entry and expenses to the Swiss MM and vice versa.
Competed once (badly) in the Swiss as the instructions/checkpoint descriptions were in German!, there was a mass start on day 1, & the temps were in the high 30's!!
p
the road must now be open as friends have just phoned and are in buttermere
so have got their car out. Sounds good, water must be receeding there ....
In reply to IainRUK:
Haha, wicking? layering? fancy footwear?. Clogs and a couple of woolie jumpers.
> (In reply to Anonymous) You forget that Northerners are innately more tolerant of cold weather being brought up in cold terraced houses with no heating with outside lavvies.
Haha, wicking? layering? fancy footwear?. Clogs and a couple of woolie jumpers.
In reply to Padraig: Yeah, just checked it was. Quite fancy doing a few MM's with the missus, thinking about the Highlander next year, need to check on dog sitters..
One of the British Champs clashes with the WHW (that I've entered) so need to make a call this weekend on that. This 'new' (old) format is 3 from 4 so I can't afford to miss that one.
One of the British Champs clashes with the WHW (that I've entered) so need to make a call this weekend on that. This 'new' (old) format is 3 from 4 so I can't afford to miss that one.
In reply to lithos:
Glad it's easing off. The A591 was looking fairly dire as I made my escape but hopefully the rain will stop soon.
> (In reply to cathsullivan)
>
> the flood waters where i am (near cockermouth) are receeding. It's
> predicted to stop raining sometime tonight - many people are hoping it
> will otherwise there'll be a few people off work on monday stuck in
> field and trying to get their cars down the lane/river!
>
> the flood waters where i am (near cockermouth) are receeding. It's
> predicted to stop raining sometime tonight - many people are hoping it
> will otherwise there'll be a few people off work on monday stuck in
> field and trying to get their cars down the lane/river!
Glad it's easing off. The A591 was looking fairly dire as I made my escape but hopefully the rain will stop soon.
In reply to IainRUK:
"Quite fancy doing a few MM's with the missus"
Trust me you'll only do one. (with the missus that is)
p
"Quite fancy doing a few MM's with the missus"
Trust me you'll only do one. (with the missus that is)
p
In reply to Padraig: Yeah not sure our relationship is strong enough to make that step yet
In reply to Anonymous:
Smelly northern oiks...
Meanwhile, if you can't survive on t'hill with an army surplus waterproof, tent, food, survival bag and Mark Weir's amazing slate mine then it's going to take more than the organisers telling you it's a bit shite out there to keep you safe.
> [...]
> a sweatshit
> a sweatshit
Smelly northern oiks...
Meanwhile, if you can't survive on t'hill with an army surplus waterproof, tent, food, survival bag and Mark Weir's amazing slate mine then it's going to take more than the organisers telling you it's a bit shite out there to keep you safe.
In reply to psd:
Everyone left on the hill is clinging onto his via ferrata to escape the flood waters, I can see the pictures in the News of the World now :-O
Everyone left on the hill is clinging onto his via ferrata to escape the flood waters, I can see the pictures in the News of the World now :-O
In reply to IainRUK:
Bolleaux
> (In reply to Padraig) Yeah not sure our relationship is strong enough to make that step yet
Bolleaux
In reply to indalo:
I'm sure my mate's knees will be grateful, at least! Glad I didn't let him talk me into taking his place!
I'm sure my mate's knees will be grateful, at least! Glad I didn't let him talk me into taking his place!
In reply to indalo: saw the ITV news which i guess was ok-ish
much as i sort of think that bad weather is just par for the course, if they are right that "hundreds" are still unaccounted for then i hope they're all ok obviously
much as i sort of think that bad weather is just par for the course, if they are right that "hundreds" are still unaccounted for then i hope they're all ok obviously
In reply to rich: I agree, but this isn't a normal fell race. As a Fell runner when you come across a flooded stream you have 2 options 1. cross 2. find another route, MMers have a 3rd option of stay where they are.
I'm hoping that is the only reason why many are unaccounted for.
I'm hoping that is the only reason why many are unaccounted for.
In reply to IainRUK: oh sure - the picture i have is people trying to hold tents together and (sort of) laughing rather than something more grim but still
In reply to rich: Yeah, know what you mean, still very worrying.
In reply to IainRUK: Thoughts are with all the guys and gals out in the Lakes tonight. Hope they all get down safely tomorrow, wet and bedraggled maybe, humour and characters, kit and skills, tested to the max, but safe all the same.
In reply to IainRUK:
As a paddler. If it comes above my knees I am not crossing it. End of!
> (In reply to rich) I agree, but this isn't a normal fell race. As a Fell runner when you come across a flooded stream you have 2 options 1. cross 2. find another route, MMers have a 3rd option of stay where they are.
>As a paddler. If it comes above my knees I am not crossing it. End of!
In reply to Bingly Bong:
I think the pix on Sleepmonsters sum the situation up...look at the grins on those faces! Loving it in a masochistic kinda way :-D
http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/racereport.php?page_action=gal&gallery_i...
I think the pix on Sleepmonsters sum the situation up...look at the grins on those faces! Loving it in a masochistic kinda way :-D
http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/racereport.php?page_action=gal&gallery_i...
In reply to dinkypen:
I like the last one, with the guys reading the timetable at the bus stop! busted
> (In reply to Bingly Bong)
>
> I think the pix on Sleepmonsters sum the situation up...look at the grins on those faces! Loving it in a masochistic kinda way :-D
>
> http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/racereport.php?page_action=gal&gallery_i...
>
> I think the pix on Sleepmonsters sum the situation up...look at the grins on those faces! Loving it in a masochistic kinda way :-D
>
> http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/racereport.php?page_action=gal&gallery_i...
I like the last one, with the guys reading the timetable at the bus stop! busted
In reply to winhill: Pic 18 just needs a boat and the scene would be complete for a day's outing on a river
In reply to Bingly Bong:
ha ha - it does look a bit wet in that one eh?
> (In reply to winhill) Pic 18 just needs a boat
ha ha - it does look a bit wet in that one eh?
In reply to winhill:
Love 18 also on sleepmonsters http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/racereport.php?page_action=gal&gallery_i...
Love 18 also on sleepmonsters http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/racereport.php?page_action=gal&gallery_i...
In reply to Neil Kazimierz Sheridan:
"I paid £3000 for fishing rights on this river"
> (In reply to Bingly Bong)
>
> haha. can't upset the anglers at least!
>
> haha. can't upset the anglers at least!
"I paid £3000 for fishing rights on this river"
In reply to Neil Kazimierz Sheridan:
Headline in local paper. Walker arrested for poaching a Salmon in the road.
Will people be sending their boots back complaining they let water in?
Headline in local paper. Walker arrested for poaching a Salmon in the road.
Will people be sending their boots back complaining they let water in?
In reply to indalo:
I'm not a runner so don't know the details. What was the route of the race. I go to a hut in the far end of the valley near the farm at Seathwaite (where people set off to go up to Styhead Tarn. It is reserved for members this week because it is half term. Some travel a long way so I hope they got through okay, it's a very cosy and well equipped hut so they will be alright once they are there. It's more than likely that they would take people in if need be. We do some marshalling at one of the fell runs in the summer.
Actually it can't have been much fun standing around marshalling, if you didn't have warm enough gear you would really suffer yet feel obliged to stay.
I'm not a runner so don't know the details. What was the route of the race. I go to a hut in the far end of the valley near the farm at Seathwaite (where people set off to go up to Styhead Tarn. It is reserved for members this week because it is half term. Some travel a long way so I hope they got through okay, it's a very cosy and well equipped hut so they will be alright once they are there. It's more than likely that they would take people in if need be. We do some marshalling at one of the fell runs in the summer.
Actually it can't have been much fun standing around marshalling, if you didn't have warm enough gear you would really suffer yet feel obliged to stay.
In reply to Knitting Norah:
on all the mm's i've done the marshalls have tents set up so that they aren't just standing alone against the elements on some lonely mountainside.
> (In reply to indalo)
>
>
> Actually it can't have been much fun standing around marshalling, if you didn't have warm enough gear you would really suffer yet feel obliged to stay.
on all the mm's i've done the marshalls have tents set up so that they aren't just standing alone against the elements on some lonely mountainside.
In reply to Knitting Norah:
It's a MM. For the score event there is no 'route'. For the 'races' the route is only known once you set off.
> (In reply to indalo)
>
> I'm not a runner so don't know the details. What was the route of the race.
>
> I'm not a runner so don't know the details. What was the route of the race.
It's a MM. For the score event there is no 'route'. For the 'races' the route is only known once you set off.
In reply to Knitting Norah:
depends. there are various classes that mean you have to visit certain coordinates in order - but by any route you chose, and then there are the 'score' classes which allow you to visit as many designated points as you can by whichever route you choose - as long as you are back within a certain time.
the word 'race', despite appearing in the news, doesn't really fit the MM format too well.
> (In reply to indalo)
>
> I'm not a runner so don't know the details. What was the route of the race.
>
> I'm not a runner so don't know the details. What was the route of the race.
depends. there are various classes that mean you have to visit certain coordinates in order - but by any route you chose, and then there are the 'score' classes which allow you to visit as many designated points as you can by whichever route you choose - as long as you are back within a certain time.
the word 'race', despite appearing in the news, doesn't really fit the MM format too well.
In reply to Knitting Norah:
ps. good effort. without people willing to marshall - neither fell running or MM's would be viable.
thank you! x
> (In reply to indalo)
>
> We do some marshalling at one of the fell runs in the summer.
>
> We do some marshalling at one of the fell runs in the summer.
ps. good effort. without people willing to marshall - neither fell running or MM's would be viable.
thank you! x
In reply to satori:
Thanks for the explanations. It will make it even more difficult to trace where people are if they don't arrive safely tomorrow. I know the marshalls won't be alone and the mountain rescue usually have a shelter or tent too. I would think it will be a tent at this time of year.
Just hope there are people at our hut and that they realise people will need shelter. We are used to seeing people passing on the path at the bottom of our land in all sorts of weather. Mind you if anyone has gone out they will know the river is flooded.
Thanks for the explanations. It will make it even more difficult to trace where people are if they don't arrive safely tomorrow. I know the marshalls won't be alone and the mountain rescue usually have a shelter or tent too. I would think it will be a tent at this time of year.
Just hope there are people at our hut and that they realise people will need shelter. We are used to seeing people passing on the path at the bottom of our land in all sorts of weather. Mind you if anyone has gone out they will know the river is flooded.
In reply to satori:
Most runners take the trouble to say thanks as they pass the marshalls which is nice and makes you feel appreciated.
Most runners take the trouble to say thanks as they pass the marshalls which is nice and makes you feel appreciated.
In reply to Knitting Norah: There was an MR man inv on BBC this morning, dont know how out of date the report was but he said there were up to 700 still missing.
In reply to Al Evans:
I suspect that part of the problem is that many competitors will have made the descision to abort and gone back to their cars without informing the organisers. Being knackered they could well be asleep now, not listening to the radio and unaware of the scale of the situation.
> (In reply to Knitting Norah) There was an MR man inv on BBC this morning, dont know how out of date the report was but he said there were up to 700 still missing.
I suspect that part of the problem is that many competitors will have made the descision to abort and gone back to their cars without informing the organisers. Being knackered they could well be asleep now, not listening to the radio and unaware of the scale of the situation.
In reply to Trangia: I'm hoping thats the case, the worst consequences don't bear thinking about.
In reply to Al Evans:
What, lots of very fit people with full bivi gear having to spend a night out in very foul weather?
> , the worst consequences don't bear thinking about.
What, lots of very fit people with full bivi gear having to spend a night out in very foul weather?
In reply to kevin stephens: There are already several people in hospital with Hypothermia, the lightweight gear you carry on an MM would be hard pressed to survive a storm of this magnitude.
In reply to kevin stephens: By the way they dont have full bivi gear in the OMM you have to carry a tent, not bivi gear.
In reply to kevin stephens:
You could have said the same about the Fastnet Race disaster.
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> [...]
>
>
> What, lots of very fit people with full bivi gear having to spend a night out in very foul weather?
> [...]
>
>
> What, lots of very fit people with full bivi gear having to spend a night out in very foul weather?
You could have said the same about the Fastnet Race disaster.
In reply to Al Evans:
Well you do have to carry a bivi bag, sleeping bag, mattress and food? Not sure what else constitutes bivi gear?
Well you do have to carry a bivi bag, sleeping bag, mattress and food? Not sure what else constitutes bivi gear?
In reply to Alex Roddie:
5Live has just suggested that the runners have spent a night 'in the open', which implies they're all huddled up next to rocks...perhaps we should all start emailing them.
I'm awaiting the OMM '08 tent review, as I contemplate my own lightweight purchase.
5Live has just suggested that the runners have spent a night 'in the open', which implies they're all huddled up next to rocks...perhaps we should all start emailing them.
I'm awaiting the OMM '08 tent review, as I contemplate my own lightweight purchase.
In reply to Al Evans: The main issue here is the size of the OMM. It's too big an event and should be reduced in size IMO. When something goes wrong it overwhelms rescue services, but not only that it puts huge pressure on the environment in that area.
In reply to IainRUK: good coverage on radio 4 broadcasting house at the moment
In reply to pog100:
You never used to have to carry a bivi bag, in fact bivvis were not allowed, it had to be a proper tent
> (In reply to Al Evans)
>
> Well you do have to carry a bivi bag, sleeping bag, mattress and food? Not sure what else constitutes bivi gear?
>
> Well you do have to carry a bivi bag, sleeping bag, mattress and food? Not sure what else constitutes bivi gear?
You never used to have to carry a bivi bag, in fact bivvis were not allowed, it had to be a proper tent
In reply to Al Evans: No, still need a tent, but I think a survival bag may be part of the kit list, can't remember.
In reply to IainRUK: Survival bag is required, but only a foil one.
In reply to indalo:
I withdraw my ill-considered quip made much earlier on the thread, and hope that I don't come to really regret it. MODS, I'd prefer that you deleted it.
R4 just had it as 1700 still unnaccounted for this morning (emergency service/mrt sourced figures), though its reckoned that many have simply just gone home. Fingers crossed for all still there, it would have been difficult staying dry in a tent in Holyrood Park last night; it must have been horrendous in the Lakes.
I withdraw my ill-considered quip made much earlier on the thread, and hope that I don't come to really regret it. MODS, I'd prefer that you deleted it.
R4 just had it as 1700 still unnaccounted for this morning (emergency service/mrt sourced figures), though its reckoned that many have simply just gone home. Fingers crossed for all still there, it would have been difficult staying dry in a tent in Holyrood Park last night; it must have been horrendous in the Lakes.
In reply to indalo:
Sky has pretty good coverage.
figures on the sky news pages..I tried to post the link but the url was too big.
Sky has pretty good coverage.
figures on the sky news pages..I tried to post the link but the url was too big.
In reply to indalo:
Grim it was, just got back home. We had a late start time and happened upon somebody in Rossthwaite who told us it had been cancelled. Had to wade through streams up to our thighs to get back to the HQ and that was at 2:00. Others turned up later saying they'd had to crawl over a gale-strewn Honistor and then wade through water up to their waste, and that's just the people who managed to get back.
Grim it was, just got back home. We had a late start time and happened upon somebody in Rossthwaite who told us it had been cancelled. Had to wade through streams up to our thighs to get back to the HQ and that was at 2:00. Others turned up later saying they'd had to crawl over a gale-strewn Honistor and then wade through water up to their waste, and that's just the people who managed to get back.
In reply to Spready: Only 25 unnacounted for now thank god, more Hypothermia cases admitted to Hospital though, some have been transferred to a different hospital (not sure why) and I cant remember the names of the hospital. Is that not bad enough for you guys saying 'fit people with good gear' that this is something out of the ordinary, the first tme the OMM or KMM has been called off in 41 years.
In reply to Al Evans:
How many times have you seen so many roads flooded in the Lake district? It was a one off storm, much like the Hull and Sheffield floods day and there was nothing anyone could do about it.
Have you read the comments of competitors here and on other sites, one mentions only getting as far as Stonethwaite and deciding to make for Gatescarth on the road and couldn't even manage that. It must have been bad;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7691338.stm
How many times have you seen so many roads flooded in the Lake district? It was a one off storm, much like the Hull and Sheffield floods day and there was nothing anyone could do about it.
Have you read the comments of competitors here and on other sites, one mentions only getting as far as Stonethwaite and deciding to make for Gatescarth on the road and couldn't even manage that. It must have been bad;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7691338.stm
In reply to dinkypen:
Why the vitriol towards Mark Weir?
This from the Honister slate mine website:
“The mine has worked tirelessly in awful conditions to do absolutely everything it can to help everyone involved and will continue to do so".
Whether the fell race should have gone ahead is a matter for those involved.
And then this:
“We are just glad to know, that no-one, as far as we aware, has been seriously injured or worse.”
According to a previous post, they charged people £1.00 for a mug of tea, but allowed people to brew up using their own stoves and eat food that they'd brought themselves. Sounds like the slate mine did ok. Or, am I missing something?
Fingers crossed that it all ends well for all involved.
Why the vitriol towards Mark Weir?
This from the Honister slate mine website:
“The mine has worked tirelessly in awful conditions to do absolutely everything it can to help everyone involved and will continue to do so".
Whether the fell race should have gone ahead is a matter for those involved.
And then this:
“We are just glad to know, that no-one, as far as we aware, has been seriously injured or worse.”
According to a previous post, they charged people £1.00 for a mug of tea, but allowed people to brew up using their own stoves and eat food that they'd brought themselves. Sounds like the slate mine did ok. Or, am I missing something?
Fingers crossed that it all ends well for all involved.
In reply to jcharles:
Yes, you are missing the fact that he said to the BBC that the organisers should be shot.
Yes, you are missing the fact that he said to the BBC that the organisers should be shot.
In reply to indalo: sorry but i have absolutley no sympathy with anyone who are supposed to be 'seasoned mountaineers' going out on a mountain marathon, carrying next to no equipment getting hyperthermia... The weather forecaset was very clear. It should have been postponed. seems to me these supposedly elite runners have egos bigger than there brains.
In reply to jcharles: the people that organise fell races and thngs like toh OMM do so in an a tricky public / commerical / legal environment - it's kinda organised self-reliance - you're putting on an event in which *the whole point* (for some) is that you don't look after the partipants - they look after themselves
in 'this day and age' i reckon it's a tricky line to tread - so any criticism of those that put their neck on the block as it were is likely to provoke a strong reaction from people that care about this sort of thing
that's my feeling about the situation anyway
in 'this day and age' i reckon it's a tricky line to tread - so any criticism of those that put their neck on the block as it were is likely to provoke a strong reaction from people that care about this sort of thing
that's my feeling about the situation anyway
In reply to scottculyer:
> (In reply to indalo) sorry but i have absolutley no sympathy
if i was doing it, i wouldn't be remotely interested in your sympathy :¬)> It should have been postponed.
i disagreeIn reply to scottculyer:
It's fell running, that's what they do, and sometimes, like mountaineers, the weather catches them out. I've been told by people before that I am stupid, selfish, irresponsible etc for going into the hills. Usually by beer swollen wisdom-of-the-pub types who haven't seen their own knob for 20 years.
It's fell running, that's what they do, and sometimes, like mountaineers, the weather catches them out. I've been told by people before that I am stupid, selfish, irresponsible etc for going into the hills. Usually by beer swollen wisdom-of-the-pub types who haven't seen their own knob for 20 years.
In reply to Jonathan Lagoe - UKC:
Really? Is that on-line somewhere? Heard his 'phone in' interview on last nights news and didn't hear him say that. If he did say that, he should know better.
> (In reply to jcharles)
>
> Yes, you are missing the fact that he said to the BBC that the organisers should be shot.
>
> Yes, you are missing the fact that he said to the BBC that the organisers should be shot.
Really? Is that on-line somewhere? Heard his 'phone in' interview on last nights news and didn't hear him say that. If he did say that, he should know better.
In reply to scottculyer:
it might be a good investment of your time to get some facts before you sound off like this in future.
For example OMM participants carry a tent, sleeping bags, stoves, full waterproofs, sleeping mats, hats gloves, torches etc etc. - this is not "carrying next to no equipment" by any sensible definition.
it might be a good investment of your time to get some facts before you sound off like this in future.
For example OMM participants carry a tent, sleeping bags, stoves, full waterproofs, sleeping mats, hats gloves, torches etc etc. - this is not "carrying next to no equipment" by any sensible definition.
In reply to IainRUK: sounds grim when i heard on the news there, a few things worry me, the weather was extreme here in glasgow last night, usually an indicator of how bad the lakes will have been or going to be..MUCH colder this morning, looks like the wind has swung round to the NW... fell runners may be fit but the fell runners physique is not suited to keeping the cold out particularly with minimalsist clothing and having so many people out on the hills in one group at this time of year is a recipe for disaster, rescue logistics are too huge to even comprehend.
fingers crossed for all involved.
BTW the early part of this thread should be deleted
fingers crossed for all involved.
BTW the early part of this thread should be deleted
In reply to jcharles:
Yes he definitely said it - and it was broadcast many times. BBC may have decided to edit it out now
Yes he definitely said it - and it was broadcast many times. BBC may have decided to edit it out now
In reply to Jonathan Lagoe - UKC: a tent is next to useless in the dark in weather like that and when your suffering from exposure
In reply to indalo: Just heard from Tony the Blade - he and Harry the Owl are safe and on their way home. Apparently it was 'pretty scary and a real epic!'. He sounds chirpy though!
In reply to Erik B: Exactly, a proper bivvi bag would be more useful, how on earth are you supposed to even pitch a lightweight tent in conditions like that, that was my point about them not having 'full bivvi' gear.
In reply to scottculyer:
On the contrary, I'd suggest that most of them would count amongst the most thoughtful and well-prepared hill goers you'll find. But I wouldn't expect you to know that if you've never experienced the sheer exhilaration of travelling fast and light in the hills with appropriate equipment!
> seems to me these supposedly elite runners have egos bigger than there brains.
On the contrary, I'd suggest that most of them would count amongst the most thoughtful and well-prepared hill goers you'll find. But I wouldn't expect you to know that if you've never experienced the sheer exhilaration of travelling fast and light in the hills with appropriate equipment!
In reply to Jonathan Lagoe - UKC:
I heard it several times now.
Oh and he (the slate mine guy) seems to be milking the story it for all the publicity he can get via his website as well. (Just an opinion, mind)
> (In reply to jcharles)
>
> Yes he definitely said it - and it was broadcast many times. BBC may have decided to edit it out now
>
> Yes he definitely said it - and it was broadcast many times. BBC may have decided to edit it out now
I heard it several times now.
Oh and he (the slate mine guy) seems to be milking the story it for all the publicity he can get via his website as well. (Just an opinion, mind)
In reply to Jonathan Lagoe - UKC:
Still there, at about 3.40;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7691338.stm
Still there, at about 3.40;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7691338.stm
In reply to Ghastly Rubberfeet:
I'm sure he is! Priceless publicity for his business. Can you really slate him for that? Shame on him for the 'they should be shot' comment. But, they seem to have done the the right thing at the mine. Making available the facilities and not ripping people off.
> (In reply to Jonathan Lagoe - UKC)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Oh and he (the slate mine guy) seems to be milking the story it for all the publicity he can get via his website as well. (Just an opinion, mind)
I'm sure he is! Priceless publicity for his business. Can you really slate him for that? Shame on him for the 'they should be shot' comment. But, they seem to have done the the right thing at the mine. Making available the facilities and not ripping people off.
In reply to Ghastly Rubberfeet:
just looked at that - i mean fair enough, like, but that seems a touch overdone to me
>
> Oh and he (the slate mine guy) seems to be milking the story it for all the publicity he can get via his website as well. (Just an opinion, mind)
> Oh and he (the slate mine guy) seems to be milking the story it for all the publicity he can get via his website as well. (Just an opinion, mind)
just looked at that - i mean fair enough, like, but that seems a touch overdone to me
In reply to Ghastly Rubberfeet: Agreed. I heard him say the organisers should be shot several times also.
In reply to Ghastly Rubberfeet:
Well done to the guys at the mine for sheltering people. But I would have called his website not just milking it, but shameless, opportunistic self-promotion!!
Well done to the guys at the mine for sheltering people. But I would have called his website not just milking it, but shameless, opportunistic self-promotion!!
In reply to sutty:
Is that the correct link?
> (In reply to Jonathan Lagoe - UKC)
>
> Still there, at about 3.40;
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7691338.stm
>
> Still there, at about 3.40;
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7691338.stm
Is that the correct link?
In reply to Ghastly Rubberfeet: yes it is, Ive witnesed 30+ top of the range tents being blown away at glen level in glencoe, i culdnt even contemplate how utterly desperate it would be to PITCH a tent in such wild weather up on the hill, in the dark when your gubbed.
Im amazed that the organisers havent taken into account the extremes of weather we have been experiencing at this time of year in recent years..
unfortunately I fear this episode will have ramifications for all of us mountaineers in the UK
Im amazed that the organisers havent taken into account the extremes of weather we have been experiencing at this time of year in recent years..
unfortunately I fear this episode will have ramifications for all of us mountaineers in the UK
In reply to jcharles:
>But, they seem to have done the the right thing at the mine. Making available the facilities and not ripping people off
Yes, good PR, my comment about him making some money will still stand, but that will cover his costs of getting people down the valley in his bus etc. I doubt anyone will complain about buying a brew and butty in the warmth when they can sit it out there. Just a pity he went off the deep end at the organisers.
>But, they seem to have done the the right thing at the mine. Making available the facilities and not ripping people off
Yes, good PR, my comment about him making some money will still stand, but that will cover his costs of getting people down the valley in his bus etc. I doubt anyone will complain about buying a brew and butty in the warmth when they can sit it out there. Just a pity he went off the deep end at the organisers.
In reply to indalo:
Perhaps we ought to also spare a thought for the locals who will probably have been dealing with floods in their own properties while trying to help others. Also there will have been quite a lot of damage to the roads so they will also have to contend with that, then there will be lifestock.
Weather like this is beyond anyones control and if we didn't risk anything we would never do anything. Most of the people who actually go out to perform the rescues are volunteers who join Mountain Rescue because they want others to enjoy the countryside. It's a bit like cavers, only other cavers can rescue them and they are usually quite happy to do this. Anyone is entitled to an ambulance. For goodness sake how many people put themselves at risk doing stupid things in all sorts of weather conditions on the roads.
Perhaps we ought to also spare a thought for the locals who will probably have been dealing with floods in their own properties while trying to help others. Also there will have been quite a lot of damage to the roads so they will also have to contend with that, then there will be lifestock.
Weather like this is beyond anyones control and if we didn't risk anything we would never do anything. Most of the people who actually go out to perform the rescues are volunteers who join Mountain Rescue because they want others to enjoy the countryside. It's a bit like cavers, only other cavers can rescue them and they are usually quite happy to do this. Anyone is entitled to an ambulance. For goodness sake how many people put themselves at risk doing stupid things in all sorts of weather conditions on the roads.
In reply to sutty:
Can't argue with any of that Sutty. So, I won't!
Hope everyone is now accounted for, and all safe and sound.
> (In reply to jcharles)
>>
> Yes, good PR, my comment about him making some money will still stand, but that will cover his costs of getting people down the valley in his bus etc. I doubt anyone will complain about buying a brew and butty in the warmth when they can sit it out there. Just a pity he went off the deep end at the organisers.
> Yes, good PR, my comment about him making some money will still stand, but that will cover his costs of getting people down the valley in his bus etc. I doubt anyone will complain about buying a brew and butty in the warmth when they can sit it out there. Just a pity he went off the deep end at the organisers.
Can't argue with any of that Sutty. So, I won't!
Hope everyone is now accounted for, and all safe and sound.
In reply to Erik B:
While it's hard to imagine it having no impact on future mountain marathon-type events, I'm not really sure that it can have too many ramifications to mountaineers at a more personal level (as in your own freedom to come and go, wild camp etc.).
> unfortunately I fear this episode will have ramifications for all of us mountaineers in the UK
While it's hard to imagine it having no impact on future mountain marathon-type events, I'm not really sure that it can have too many ramifications to mountaineers at a more personal level (as in your own freedom to come and go, wild camp etc.).
In reply to Erik B:
Exactly. We had to take a bunch of folk into our bunkhouse years ago (when you were allowed to camp outside the Clach on the grass) after their tents, quasars and all, had been flattened and soaked through. Lightweight backpacking/racing tents would be useless last night.
I second that the mods remove the early part of thread too.
Exactly. We had to take a bunch of folk into our bunkhouse years ago (when you were allowed to camp outside the Clach on the grass) after their tents, quasars and all, had been flattened and soaked through. Lightweight backpacking/racing tents would be useless last night.
I second that the mods remove the early part of thread too.
In reply to Knitting Norah: I concur, however this was an organized event of massive amounts of participants, somewhat different to a team of two climbers going climbing in a full on blizzard in the mountains with only themselves to worry about and look out for and survive.
The whole thing is a mess and will have far reaching repurcussions for the 'ordinary' mountaineer, begs the moral question, is it ethically correct to organize such SPORTING events in the mountains?
The whole thing is a mess and will have far reaching repurcussions for the 'ordinary' mountaineer, begs the moral question, is it ethically correct to organize such SPORTING events in the mountains?
In reply to jcharles:
Still 25 missing according to Sky News, helicopers out. Can anybody doing it who is ok let us all know, I'm not going to mention names for obvious reasons but I know several posters who were intending to do it and it would be good to know they are ok (thanks TtB and HtO).
> (In reply to sutty)
> Hope everyone is now accounted for, and all safe and sound.
> Hope everyone is now accounted for, and all safe and sound.
Still 25 missing according to Sky News, helicopers out. Can anybody doing it who is ok let us all know, I'm not going to mention names for obvious reasons but I know several posters who were intending to do it and it would be good to know they are ok (thanks TtB and HtO).
In reply to petestack: I saw a quote recently, cant remember who it was unfortunately who reckons climbing as we know it will be dead and buried within 10 years due to politcal correctness and the nanny state,
its this sort of episode this weekend which will make it impossible to enjoy the freedom of the mountains except for the most anarchistic amongst us.
its this sort of episode this weekend which will make it impossible to enjoy the freedom of the mountains except for the most anarchistic amongst us.
In reply to Al Evans: 'net' and her partner (not a UKCer I think) are fine and home and warm. I'm sure she won't mind me saying that she thinks running again today would have been good!
They were able to drive out of Borrowdale this morning.
They were able to drive out of Borrowdale this morning.
In reply to Removed User: aye it was the clach camp spot where i witnessed the tents thing, maybe the same one? circa early 90's. I was up winter climbing that day, WILD!
In reply to Removed User:
Didn't see that, why? Can you please explain?
> (In reply to Removed UserErik B)
> I second that the mods remove the early part of thread too.
Didn't see that, why? Can you please explain?
In reply to Al Evans:
There are a couple of attempts at humour (including one by me) which are inappropriate and insensitive given the potential seriousness of the situation.
There are a couple of attempts at humour (including one by me) which are inappropriate and insensitive given the potential seriousness of the situation.
In reply to Erik B:
So where do you draw the line? Trail racing, hill racing, the Ben Nevis Race, the OMM?
It's the same in yacht racing and other adventurous sports when things go wrong, and the trouble is that there's either no line or that it's different for everybody. So should you deny some people the chance to test themselves just because that test is clearly beyond others, or isn't that partly the point for the participants?
Might add that I've also got some personal misgivings about things (not talking *organised* sport here) like Cuillin Ridge records, but recognise that you're operating with different margins if you're as good as Es! So who's to say what's right or wrong when there are no easy answers and no one-size-fits-all solutions?
> begs the moral question, is it ethically correct to organize such SPORTING events in the mountains?
So where do you draw the line? Trail racing, hill racing, the Ben Nevis Race, the OMM?
It's the same in yacht racing and other adventurous sports when things go wrong, and the trouble is that there's either no line or that it's different for everybody. So should you deny some people the chance to test themselves just because that test is clearly beyond others, or isn't that partly the point for the participants?
Might add that I've also got some personal misgivings about things (not talking *organised* sport here) like Cuillin Ridge records, but recognise that you're operating with different margins if you're as good as Es! So who's to say what's right or wrong when there are no easy answers and no one-size-fits-all solutions?
In reply to indalo:
Just found out a friend of mine was in the OMM but is safe and sound.
Still 44 missing however. With luck the weather will improve.
Just found out a friend of mine was in the OMM but is safe and sound.
Still 44 missing however. With luck the weather will improve.
In reply to Removed User:
I think a lot of us have ended up in a hut at times when tents have blown down or been flooded out. In weather similar to yesterdays a lake district warden told me off for camping on a mound in this area when all the campsites were flooded. I asked where we should go and was told Keswick but that was already 4" deep in water so he left us alone.
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=318260&Y=516265&A=Y&...
Been flooded out at Langdale, Llanberis by the Cromlech, down the Gwynant campsite and had tent torn to shreds in Idwal. Just part of being out in the hills a lot.
I think a lot of us have ended up in a hut at times when tents have blown down or been flooded out. In weather similar to yesterdays a lake district warden told me off for camping on a mound in this area when all the campsites were flooded. I asked where we should go and was told Keswick but that was already 4" deep in water so he left us alone.
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=318260&Y=516265&A=Y&...
Been flooded out at Langdale, Llanberis by the Cromlech, down the Gwynant campsite and had tent torn to shreds in Idwal. Just part of being out in the hills a lot.
In reply to Erik B:
Sorry but that's just rubbish!
It won't affect our ability to enjoy the freedom of the mountains by a hundredth of a percent, much less eradicate it entirely as you seem to think. Funnily enough, I expect that if I step out into the lakes next weekend with some lightweight camping gear and a plan to camp above 2000 ft, no one will bat an eyelid.
>
> its this sort of episode this weekend which will make it impossible to enjoy the freedom of the mountains except for the most anarchistic amongst us.
> its this sort of episode this weekend which will make it impossible to enjoy the freedom of the mountains except for the most anarchistic amongst us.
Sorry but that's just rubbish!
It won't affect our ability to enjoy the freedom of the mountains by a hundredth of a percent, much less eradicate it entirely as you seem to think. Funnily enough, I expect that if I step out into the lakes next weekend with some lightweight camping gear and a plan to camp above 2000 ft, no one will bat an eyelid.
In reply to sutty: When I was on Lundy in Sept with Jack Street, as we arrived there were a load of people kipping in the garage, courtesy of Landmark Trust, because their tents had been flattened on the campsite. This is a comparatively shelterd site and the weather was nothing like as bad as that experienced on this years OMM.
Interestingly, Jacks Arctic Guinea which I had last kipped in in 1969 in Chamonix survived intact, and stayed dry even without a flysheet which Jack hadn't bothered to bring!
Of course you would never run the OMM with an AG, and never put it up in those conditions.
Interestingly, Jacks Arctic Guinea which I had last kipped in in 1969 in Chamonix survived intact, and stayed dry even without a flysheet which Jack hadn't bothered to bring!
Of course you would never run the OMM with an AG, and never put it up in those conditions.
44 still missing with an RAF helo searching.
At least one person is seriously ill in hospital with hypothermia after being washed away in a swollen stream (she was recued by other competitors).
I hope this has a happy outcome, but I fear it may not.
Either way it is worth pointing out that the Met Office issued a Flash Warning for Cumbria at 0530 on Saturday, forecasting 80 mm of rain on the hills. I know we all love to sneer at weather forecasts but, well, maybe we shouldn't.
Will have no impact on the sport though, and nor should it. People know the risks; nobody made them go.
At least one person is seriously ill in hospital with hypothermia after being washed away in a swollen stream (she was recued by other competitors).
I hope this has a happy outcome, but I fear it may not.
Either way it is worth pointing out that the Met Office issued a Flash Warning for Cumbria at 0530 on Saturday, forecasting 80 mm of rain on the hills. I know we all love to sneer at weather forecasts but, well, maybe we shouldn't.
Will have no impact on the sport though, and nor should it. People know the risks; nobody made them go.
In reply to Erik B:
Twaddle! Hopefully all those who have been out on the hills have brains and are accountable to no one but themselves. I hope all come back safely but the onus is on us not someone or something else.
> (In reply to petestack) I saw a quote recently, cant remember who it was unfortunately who reckons climbing as we know it will be dead and buried within 10 years due to politcal correctness and the nanny state,
>
> its this sort of episode this weekend which will make it impossible to enjoy the freedom of the mountains except for the most anarchistic amongst us.
>
> its this sort of episode this weekend which will make it impossible to enjoy the freedom of the mountains except for the most anarchistic amongst us.
Twaddle! Hopefully all those who have been out on the hills have brains and are accountable to no one but themselves. I hope all come back safely but the onus is on us not someone or something else.
In reply to Erik B:
Sorry but that is total and utter bollocks.
In fact, I am convinced that you are trolling. If you seriously believe the bilge you just wrote then I feel sorry for you.
> (In reply to petestack) I saw a quote recently, cant remember who it was unfortunately who reckons climbing as we know it will be dead and buried within 10 years due to politcal correctness and the nanny state,
>
> its this sort of episode this weekend which will make it impossible to enjoy the freedom of the mountains except for the most anarchistic amongst us.
>
> its this sort of episode this weekend which will make it impossible to enjoy the freedom of the mountains except for the most anarchistic amongst us.
Sorry but that is total and utter bollocks.
In fact, I am convinced that you are trolling. If you seriously believe the bilge you just wrote then I feel sorry for you.
In reply to petestack: There is a line to draw and it is a very clear one here pete. It is one of risk and liability... Having seen close up adventure races from an organisational side it is a balance between offering the feel of a risk and actually putting people in danger. Now the financial pressures of cancelling a race, sponsorship , next years sales are all factors that will influence a decision wether to cancell a race or not as the weather forcasts spoke for themselves....
In reply to indalo: sky news saying only 3 left unaccounted.
In reply to cringeworthy:
Have to agree with you. Whether or not the organisers should have cancelled it I, my partner and all other competitors were aware of the forecast and chose to go out. Personally I did so with an acceptance that we may bail if it got really bad, though the decision was made for us in the end.
Have to agree with you. Whether or not the organisers should have cancelled it I, my partner and all other competitors were aware of the forecast and chose to go out. Personally I did so with an acceptance that we may bail if it got really bad, though the decision was made for us in the end.
In reply: Said in the paper this morning that people had to hand in their mobile phones before starting - is that correct? And is that in order to stop people being able to use GPS phones to help with navigating? I'd have thought that a non-GPS mobile would be ok. I wonder how many people aren't able to call in to say they're ok because their phone's sat in a cardboard box at race HQ?
In reply to andy:
You do know there is virtually no reception in the fells, don't you?
> In reply: Said in the paper this morning that people had to hand in their mobile phones before starting - is that correct? And is that in order to stop people being able to use GPS phones to help with navigating? I'd have thought that a non-GPS mobile would be ok. I wonder how many people aren't able to call in to say they're ok because their phone's sat in a cardboard box at race HQ?
You do know there is virtually no reception in the fells, don't you?
In reply to andy:
There is little or no mobile phone reception. If they had been carried they would have been of no use! That's the trouble with reading and believing newspapers!
> In reply: Said in the paper this morning that people had to hand in their mobile phones before starting - is that correct? And is that in order to stop people being able to use GPS phones to help with navigating? I'd have thought that a non-GPS mobile would be ok. I wonder how many people aren't able to call in to say they're ok because their phone's sat in a cardboard box at race HQ?
There is little or no mobile phone reception. If they had been carried they would have been of no use! That's the trouble with reading and believing newspapers!
In reply to cringeworthy: in normal circumstances you are right, but this was an organized event
In reply to Dan G 11:
Of course it will, but it won't (and shouldn't) stop it. So let's hope there's no really bad news (hope you all know what I mean without having to spell it out), but think 1979 Fastnet Race Inquiry if the worst comes to the worst. Lessons were learned and recommendations made, but the Fastnet is quite properly still running.
Same arguments came up with the Fastnet and 1998 Sydney–Hobart Race (so yes I'm talking about yachting, but the principles are exactly the same), and still get discussed every time there's a major sporting happening of this kind. So you can say the organisers should cancel (when they're damned for nannying) or you can say they shouldn't (when they're damned for not nannying), but ultimately they pretty well have to leave the choice up to the competitors if they're not going to be accused of saying 'this is safe' or 'we guarantee your safety' (which they clearly can't do).
> Will have no impact on the sport though, and nor should it.
Of course it will, but it won't (and shouldn't) stop it. So let's hope there's no really bad news (hope you all know what I mean without having to spell it out), but think 1979 Fastnet Race Inquiry if the worst comes to the worst. Lessons were learned and recommendations made, but the Fastnet is quite properly still running.
> People know the risks; nobody made them go.
Same arguments came up with the Fastnet and 1998 Sydney–Hobart Race (so yes I'm talking about yachting, but the principles are exactly the same), and still get discussed every time there's a major sporting happening of this kind. So you can say the organisers should cancel (when they're damned for nannying) or you can say they shouldn't (when they're damned for not nannying), but ultimately they pretty well have to leave the choice up to the competitors if they're not going to be accused of saying 'this is safe' or 'we guarantee your safety' (which they clearly can't do).
In reply to Alex Roddie: maybe i am just older, wiser and far more experienced than you, i have seen a huge change in attitudes from the general public towards us mountaineers in the last 20 years, particularly so in the last 10 years.
what makes you think im talking utter bollocks?
are you aware of the huge ramifications the cairngorm disaster had on the mountaineering culture in the UK?
what makes you think im talking utter bollocks?
are you aware of the huge ramifications the cairngorm disaster had on the mountaineering culture in the UK?
In reply to petestack: mountaineering is looked on far worse and more unforgivingly than yacht racing by the UK general public
In reply to Masquerade: I hope your right, I take no pleasure in analyzing what might happen in the next 10 years
In reply to Erik B:
Fair enough, there will be an impact on public opinion (although I'm not convinced there will be a big impact). But why should public opinion matter? We're not going to stop climbing just because some people think it's irresponsible.
This argument is as old as the hills and if anything, taking the long view, I think the public is MORE accepting of mountaineering than in the past. Alpinism, for example, is no longer thought of as inherently highly dangerous. More people go walking and climbing than ever before. I severely doubt that a bit of tut-tutting by a few armchair mountaineers is going to have any impact on us whatsoever.
> (In reply to Alex Roddie) maybe i am just older, wiser and far more experienced than you, i have seen a huge change in attitudes from the general public towards us mountaineers in the last 20 years, particularly so in the last 10 years.
Fair enough, there will be an impact on public opinion (although I'm not convinced there will be a big impact). But why should public opinion matter? We're not going to stop climbing just because some people think it's irresponsible.
This argument is as old as the hills and if anything, taking the long view, I think the public is MORE accepting of mountaineering than in the past. Alpinism, for example, is no longer thought of as inherently highly dangerous. More people go walking and climbing than ever before. I severely doubt that a bit of tut-tutting by a few armchair mountaineers is going to have any impact on us whatsoever.
In reply to Alex Roddie:
I suspect Erik's forgotten more about mountaineering than you may ever know, so I'd go easy on the "talking bollocks" stuff if I were you.
Goes without saying that I share the general concern for anyone still out there and unaccounted for. Here's hoping for the safe return of all concerned.
I suspect Erik's forgotten more about mountaineering than you may ever know, so I'd go easy on the "talking bollocks" stuff if I were you.
Goes without saying that I share the general concern for anyone still out there and unaccounted for. Here's hoping for the safe return of all concerned.
In reply to Erik B:
Which means that the risks are managed, but not removed.
Erik, I disagree with what you have said, but you are entitled to your opinion, however you are a very experienced mountaineer and I am surprised that you have been caught up in the sensationalism of the news reporting! Tomorrow it will be yesterday's news and the news jackals will have moved onto something else and forgotten this entirely.
> (In reply to cringeworthy) in normal circumstances you are right, but this was an organized event
Which means that the risks are managed, but not removed.
Erik, I disagree with what you have said, but you are entitled to your opinion, however you are a very experienced mountaineer and I am surprised that you have been caught up in the sensationalism of the news reporting! Tomorrow it will be yesterday's news and the news jackals will have moved onto something else and forgotten this entirely.
In reply to andy:
No, you didn't have to hand in your phones. However, they weren't permitted. Regardless, there was bugger all reception at Seathwaite anyway and as others have pointed out, not much on rest of fells.
No, you didn't have to hand in your phones. However, they weren't permitted. Regardless, there was bugger all reception at Seathwaite anyway and as others have pointed out, not much on rest of fells.
In reply to Erik B:
No, not really.
I know the ramifications it had on leaders/organisers of school and youth groups, but I don't think it had any ramifications on the mountaineering culture in general.
Maybe I'm viewing it too simplisticly.
Perhaps you could enlighten me?
> are you aware of the huge ramifications the cairngorm disaster had on the mountaineering culture in the UK?
No, not really.
I know the ramifications it had on leaders/organisers of school and youth groups, but I don't think it had any ramifications on the mountaineering culture in general.
Maybe I'm viewing it too simplisticly.
Perhaps you could enlighten me?
In reply to Winston Ingram:
I am not questioning the fact that Erik obviously has a lot more experience than me--I'm just saying that I think it's pretty self-evident that people will continue to enjoy the mountains no matter what the public thinks of us.
> I suspect Erik's forgotten more about mountaineering than you may ever know, so I'd go easy on the "talking bollocks" stuff if I were you.
I am not questioning the fact that Erik obviously has a lot more experience than me--I'm just saying that I think it's pretty self-evident that people will continue to enjoy the mountains no matter what the public thinks of us.
In reply to Erik B:
Are you sure about that? (Might ask you again after the next, hopefully never-to-happen, organised yacht racing disaster...)
> (In reply to petestack) mountaineering is looked on far worse and more unforgivingly than yacht racing by the UK general public
Are you sure about that? (Might ask you again after the next, hopefully never-to-happen, organised yacht racing disaster...)
In reply to Erik B:
I think we're quite safe from h&e officers crawling the cairngorms in the middle of feb in search of unlicensed/uninsured climbers.
I think we're quite safe from h&e officers crawling the cairngorms in the middle of feb in search of unlicensed/uninsured climbers.
In reply to Erik B:
If you're thinking things like compulsory certification/insurance and the nanny state, think back to my point about drawing the line...
So how many of the folk who start clamouring for these things every time something big hits the news stop to think about their own 'lines' and how such restrictions might impinge on their own freedoms? When does a walk in the park become a country walk become a hill walk become a mountaineering expedition? And should we be regulating walks in the park?
> (In reply to Masquerade) I hope your right, I take no pleasure in analyzing what might happen in the next 10 years
If you're thinking things like compulsory certification/insurance and the nanny state, think back to my point about drawing the line...
So how many of the folk who start clamouring for these things every time something big hits the news stop to think about their own 'lines' and how such restrictions might impinge on their own freedoms? When does a walk in the park become a country walk become a hill walk become a mountaineering expedition? And should we be regulating walks in the park?
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:
Depends where you are - if you're up fairly high the reception's generally not too bad - bottom of Borrowdale isn't great, but on the tops there's a reasonable signal on most networks.
> (In reply to andy)
> [...]
>
> You do know there is virtually no reception in the fells, don't you?
> [...]
>
> You do know there is virtually no reception in the fells, don't you?
Depends where you are - if you're up fairly high the reception's generally not too bad - bottom of Borrowdale isn't great, but on the tops there's a reasonable signal on most networks.
In reply to petestack:
And should we be regulating walks in the park?
Probably.
I bet more people get injured/mugged/stabbed/assaulted/etc in parks than get injured on the hills every year!
And should we be regulating walks in the park?
Probably.
I bet more people get injured/mugged/stabbed/assaulted/etc in parks than get injured on the hills every year!
In reply to jonnie: what do you disagree with? its not an opinion of mine, its just an analysis
In reply to niallk:
There's bugger all at Seathwaite, but you don't have to be too high up to start to get a signal. It's not a criticism at all - I was just interested if the event had specifically banned/collected them.
Anyway - Given the amount of self-righteous whinging you see on here about "punters" calling out rescue teams on mobiles you'd think it was 5 bars everywhere...
> (In reply to andy)
>
> No, you didn't have to hand in your phones. However, they weren't permitted. Regardless, there was bugger all reception at Seathwaite anyway and as others have pointed out, not much on rest of fells.
>
> No, you didn't have to hand in your phones. However, they weren't permitted. Regardless, there was bugger all reception at Seathwaite anyway and as others have pointed out, not much on rest of fells.
There's bugger all at Seathwaite, but you don't have to be too high up to start to get a signal. It's not a criticism at all - I was just interested if the event had specifically banned/collected them.
Anyway - Given the amount of self-righteous whinging you see on here about "punters" calling out rescue teams on mobiles you'd think it was 5 bars everywhere...
In reply to andy: Actually, this year mobile phones were to be sealed and only used in an emergency - read the kitlist on the website. Most people won't have taken them though, as they traditionally not been allowed. This is increasingly common on events like this - if the black bag with your phone in is unsealed at the end you're disqualified.
In reply to petestack:
IIRC the American magazine, Trail Runner, carries a warning along the lines that the activities discussed (er, trail running)are dangerous and potentially life threatening - they should only be undertaken by professionally qualified and/or trained personnel...
I would go so far as to suggest it's our duty to resist this risk-averse attitude at every cost. Events like the OMM are essential in this day and age and represent some very basic right to choose risk and self-reliance...
IIRC the American magazine, Trail Runner, carries a warning along the lines that the activities discussed (er, trail running)are dangerous and potentially life threatening - they should only be undertaken by professionally qualified and/or trained personnel...
I would go so far as to suggest it's our duty to resist this risk-averse attitude at every cost. Events like the OMM are essential in this day and age and represent some very basic right to choose risk and self-reliance...
In reply to FrankBooth:
>
depends where ye park yer car!
> (In reply to Erik B)
>
> I think we're quite safe from h&e officers crawling the cairngorms in the middle of feb in search of unlicensed/uninsured climbers.
>
> I think we're quite safe from h&e officers crawling the cairngorms in the middle of feb in search of unlicensed/uninsured climbers.
>
depends where ye park yer car!
In reply to Erik B:
Sorry if I came across as too forthright - you have much greater competence from which to comment than myself - but basically nothing absolves us from making decisions for ourselves unless those in question are not adults and not able to make such decisions. I came across a thread on another forum about a walker who had died and the grieved party seemed to want to shift the responsibility elsewhere other than the mistake (or possible heart-attack) of the person involved and those who pointed out the situation were understandably not listened to. I do think the organisers probably got it wrong but I am sure most of us understand the pressures they are under. If we look back to the past from tragedies in the Peak District, deaths from canoeing, sailing tragedies as mentioned, very few have lasting effects other than to improve matters or just impact locally. The general trend has been for more outdoor experiences of all sorts other than perhaps the school environment where responsibility is the major issue because of legal issues.
> (In reply to cringeworthy) in normal circumstances you are right, but this was an organized event
Sorry if I came across as too forthright - you have much greater competence from which to comment than myself - but basically nothing absolves us from making decisions for ourselves unless those in question are not adults and not able to make such decisions. I came across a thread on another forum about a walker who had died and the grieved party seemed to want to shift the responsibility elsewhere other than the mistake (or possible heart-attack) of the person involved and those who pointed out the situation were understandably not listened to. I do think the organisers probably got it wrong but I am sure most of us understand the pressures they are under. If we look back to the past from tragedies in the Peak District, deaths from canoeing, sailing tragedies as mentioned, very few have lasting effects other than to improve matters or just impact locally. The general trend has been for more outdoor experiences of all sorts other than perhaps the school environment where responsibility is the major issue because of legal issues.
In reply to FrankBooth:
We may one day see another mass tresspass, this time to assert our right to assess our own risks in the hills.
> (In reply to petestack)
>
> I would go so far as to suggest it's our duty to resist this risk-averse attitude at every cost. Events like the OMM are essential in this day and age and represent some very basic right to choose risk and self-reliance...
>
> I would go so far as to suggest it's our duty to resist this risk-averse attitude at every cost. Events like the OMM are essential in this day and age and represent some very basic right to choose risk and self-reliance...
We may one day see another mass tresspass, this time to assert our right to assess our own risks in the hills.
In reply to Nick - South Wales: Seems an eminently sensible solution - quick check of a couple of mobile operators' websites suggests that as you'd expect the bottom end of Borrowdale and the Honister end of Buttermere are blackspots, but as is my experience reception improves as you get higher up - so for an emergency I'd have thought it wise to carry one. If there's no reception you're no worse off, and if there is you're significantly better off.
In reply to Erik B:
...is what I disagree with.
And events are analysed from a subjective view and are opinion. Just as I have analysed events and arrived at an opinion, so have you.
> The whole thing is a mess and will have far reaching repurcussions for the 'ordinary' mountaineer
...is what I disagree with.
> its not an opinion of mine, its just an analysis
And events are analysed from a subjective view and are opinion. Just as I have analysed events and arrived at an opinion, so have you.
In reply to jonnie: you know what I mean...
In reply to jonnie: when was the last time an incident in the UK mountains gained international news coverage for such a sustained period of time?
In reply to Erik B:
Aye, I do ). Sorry, I was being a smart arse!
> (In reply to jonnie) you know what I mean...
Aye, I do ). Sorry, I was being a smart arse!
In reply to andy:
I would think that carrying a mobile phone, sealed in its bag would be a good idea, then a text to HQ communications to say you were safe would save a lot of problems. Too many people change their plans and do not let others know they are safe while a MRT may be looking for them.
If there are any competitors reading this who have NOT checked in with the organisers, could they do it now via the website or on here.
I would think that carrying a mobile phone, sealed in its bag would be a good idea, then a text to HQ communications to say you were safe would save a lot of problems. Too many people change their plans and do not let others know they are safe while a MRT may be looking for them.
If there are any competitors reading this who have NOT checked in with the organisers, could they do it now via the website or on here.
In reply to Erik B:
The Ten Tors expedition gets fairly annual coverage for reasons of foul weather. There have been fatalities in this event, but it has not affected it being run every year, nor do I detect any change in culture or attitude to hillwalkers.
But then looked at from another angle, to the news services the OMM is just another flood/severe weather story of which there are many, many examples. And they move on from them to the next one.
The BBC were trying very hard yesterday to get competitors to say that the event shouldn't go ahead and failed miserably. All they got were people grinning at the camera. They had to refocus the direction of their reports because of it.
The Ten Tors expedition gets fairly annual coverage for reasons of foul weather. There have been fatalities in this event, but it has not affected it being run every year, nor do I detect any change in culture or attitude to hillwalkers.
But then looked at from another angle, to the news services the OMM is just another flood/severe weather story of which there are many, many examples. And they move on from them to the next one.
The BBC were trying very hard yesterday to get competitors to say that the event shouldn't go ahead and failed miserably. All they got were people grinning at the camera. They had to refocus the direction of their reports because of it.
In reply to indalo:
Just seen the sleepmonstors footage on the sky news page - Bloody hell!
Hope the '3' surface unscathed.
Just seen the sleepmonstors footage on the sky news page - Bloody hell!
Hope the '3' surface unscathed.
In reply to Spready:
according to 2 friends who finished in the top ten organisers PREVENTED people from checking in via their tags.
THE organisers have failed to appear before cameras and latest news is can't be contacted. Where were they when some kind of leadership was required???
I have just got back from Borrowdale having managed to get through to take two friends to their cars. Obviously things have improved but it is a complete mess down there. The lack of organisation is astounding. Cars that were flooded out are still there and the field where people were parked is thick with mud.
NO ORGANISATION WHATSOEVER!!!!! to marshall the retrieval of cars bar two farmers who have kindly volunteered their own time to help.
helicopters remain very busy in the valley.
The school now seems quiet which is just as well given it flooded last week.
The whole cost of this fiasco should be billed directly to the organisers.
I just really really hope nobody dies. All this plucky Britishness ignores the fact that rivers in flood kill irrespective of skill.
according to 2 friends who finished in the top ten organisers PREVENTED people from checking in via their tags.
THE organisers have failed to appear before cameras and latest news is can't be contacted. Where were they when some kind of leadership was required???
I have just got back from Borrowdale having managed to get through to take two friends to their cars. Obviously things have improved but it is a complete mess down there. The lack of organisation is astounding. Cars that were flooded out are still there and the field where people were parked is thick with mud.
NO ORGANISATION WHATSOEVER!!!!! to marshall the retrieval of cars bar two farmers who have kindly volunteered their own time to help.
helicopters remain very busy in the valley.
The school now seems quiet which is just as well given it flooded last week.
The whole cost of this fiasco should be billed directly to the organisers.
I just really really hope nobody dies. All this plucky Britishness ignores the fact that rivers in flood kill irrespective of skill.
In reply to Simon Overton:
Also very clear when the police knocked on our door last night that the emergency services in workington had no idea what people were doing up in the mountains. They thought it was all crazy walkers got lost.
Complete shambles, no contingency plan- all for pure profit.
Also very clear when the police knocked on our door last night that the emergency services in workington had no idea what people were doing up in the mountains. They thought it was all crazy walkers got lost.
Complete shambles, no contingency plan- all for pure profit.
In reply to Simon Overton: "All for pure profit"
Missing the mark wider than a drunk blindfolded darts player from 500 yards.
Missing the mark wider than a drunk blindfolded darts player from 500 yards.
In reply to Simon Overton:
and cars that did start later breaking down blocking the road out of borrowdale. Road blocked with AA recovery trucks.
Any organisers about making sure everything goes smoothly- no!!!
Although when my friends did get to hand their tags in they did get a voucher for Wilfs- oh joy.
What about laying straw to help vehicles get out of the field???
Frieze OMM assets using anti-terror legislation and give the OMM money to the RAF and emergency services. Perhaps they might organise it in future to raise much needed funds??? They'd do a much better job!!
and cars that did start later breaking down blocking the road out of borrowdale. Road blocked with AA recovery trucks.
Any organisers about making sure everything goes smoothly- no!!!
Although when my friends did get to hand their tags in they did get a voucher for Wilfs- oh joy.
What about laying straw to help vehicles get out of the field???
Frieze OMM assets using anti-terror legislation and give the OMM money to the RAF and emergency services. Perhaps they might organise it in future to raise much needed funds??? They'd do a much better job!!
In reply to Simon Overton: Seems i wasnt able to stop you.
In reply to Nick - South Wales:
So they do it for charity and out of the kindness of their hearts- I apologise.
So they do it for charity and out of the kindness of their hearts- I apologise.
In reply to Simon Overton: Will you shut your gob!
In reply to Simon Overton: Largely - yes.
In reply to indalo:
I don't think I have missed the mark. Flooding has been so bad locally BEFORE the event that Cockermouth School was flooded and part of the building closed.
The organisers knew the forecast yet still went ahead.
They had no plan whatsoever for this kind of event. On local radio last night one person was begging for anyone with a coach to go up to Honister. The emergency services were so over stretched locally that police from North Wales had to be called in. North Wales police patrol cars parked at sheep and wool centre last night.
Anyway I've done my bit as requested by the police so...
Rant over and off for a bacon butty.
I don't think I have missed the mark. Flooding has been so bad locally BEFORE the event that Cockermouth School was flooded and part of the building closed.
The organisers knew the forecast yet still went ahead.
They had no plan whatsoever for this kind of event. On local radio last night one person was begging for anyone with a coach to go up to Honister. The emergency services were so over stretched locally that police from North Wales had to be called in. North Wales police patrol cars parked at sheep and wool centre last night.
Anyway I've done my bit as requested by the police so...
Rant over and off for a bacon butty.
In reply to Simon Overton:
Blimy, I've read some drivel on UKC forums over the years, but there were obviously new depths to plumb....
Neil
Blimy, I've read some drivel on UKC forums over the years, but there were obviously new depths to plumb....
Neil
In reply to Mooncat:
Hmmm, it sounds more like he's expressing a different opinion to me, that's all.
Hmmm, it sounds more like he's expressing a different opinion to me, that's all.
In reply to Spready:
How could there be '3' this is run in pairs?
> (In reply to indalo)
> Just seen the sleepmonstors footage on the sky news page - Bloody hell!
> Hope the '3' surface unscathed.
> Just seen the sleepmonstors footage on the sky news page - Bloody hell!
> Hope the '3' surface unscathed.
How could there be '3' this is run in pairs?
In reply to indalo: it beggars belief how it was allowed to start, given the forecasts
In reply to Removed User: Its nice to see that he has done his bit and blamed everyone else though. Im pleased for the guy. At least all his life is going to be lived knowing how right he is.
In reply to Removed User: I agree
In reply to indalo:
You mean the facts on the ground- I was there, I do live locally.
Bacon butty time.
I do expect to be flamed for my little rant, but I have done my best to describe what I actually saw and I have also discussed this with two runners who finished in the "top ten". I'll look back later tonight. It will be amusing to read the opinions of people who weren't actually there.
Anyone who lives locally and was there and disagrees fair enough.
You mean the facts on the ground- I was there, I do live locally.
Bacon butty time.
I do expect to be flamed for my little rant, but I have done my best to describe what I actually saw and I have also discussed this with two runners who finished in the "top ten". I'll look back later tonight. It will be amusing to read the opinions of people who weren't actually there.
Anyone who lives locally and was there and disagrees fair enough.
In reply to Simon Overton:
I see your tourettes has not responded to treatment Simon.
The organisers, if you had read the thread and the OMM webpage were cut off themselves, their vehicles are in the water as well. Now would they have put them there if they thought they would be flooded?
I see your tourettes has not responded to treatment Simon.
The organisers, if you had read the thread and the OMM webpage were cut off themselves, their vehicles are in the water as well. Now would they have put them there if they thought they would be flooded?
In reply to Simon Overton: thanks for giving some much needed reality to this thread, I have taken a bit of a beating for my postings so glad you have posted your uncensored thoughts
In reply to Simon Overton: try and get that butty stuck
In reply to Erik B:
Sorry Erik, but few Fell runners are that skinny, in fact at OMM's I think you see the full span of appearances.
> (In reply to IainRUK) fell runners may be fit but the fell runners physique is not suited to keeping the cold
Sorry Erik, but few Fell runners are that skinny, in fact at OMM's I think you see the full span of appearances.
In reply to andy: "If there's no reception you're no worse off, and if there is you're significantly better off."
Im afraid thats just where you are wrong. You carried a signficant of extra and totally useless weight. Neither my partner and I carried a phone in last years OMM and I wouldn't in the future.
I'm greatfull that I didn't enter this year, but its just the luck of the draw!
Im afraid thats just where you are wrong. You carried a signficant of extra and totally useless weight. Neither my partner and I carried a phone in last years OMM and I wouldn't in the future.
I'm greatfull that I didn't enter this year, but its just the luck of the draw!
In reply to Simon Overton:
Ah, yes. I believe he had had some kind of tragedy that meant his via ferrata had had to be cancelled for the day and was surviving on sales of cups of tea. I rather got the impression he was trying to mention his tourist attraction at every opportunity. Thing is, I can't think of any conceivable publicity reason that he might have wanted to be a drama queen and get himself onto every broadcast going as the Cassandra of the Lakes. Can you?
Meanwhile, total cost to the taxpayer is roughly the same as any other flooding incident. Mountain Rescue is a charity that people may choose to support (how much has MR cost you recently?) and the RAF write it off as training - it gives their pilots vital search and rescue experience in a real-world environment with genuine pressure, rather than going into potential warzones without any experience. The ambulance service was saying yesterday that they had three vehicles on site as a precaution and that they had at no point been overstretched - this also seems to be an invention of Cassandra.
In short, don't believe everything you see in the media...
> (In reply to indalo)
> On local radio last night one person was begging for anyone with a coach to go up to Honister.
Ah, yes. I believe he had had some kind of tragedy that meant his via ferrata had had to be cancelled for the day and was surviving on sales of cups of tea. I rather got the impression he was trying to mention his tourist attraction at every opportunity. Thing is, I can't think of any conceivable publicity reason that he might have wanted to be a drama queen and get himself onto every broadcast going as the Cassandra of the Lakes. Can you?
Meanwhile, total cost to the taxpayer is roughly the same as any other flooding incident. Mountain Rescue is a charity that people may choose to support (how much has MR cost you recently?) and the RAF write it off as training - it gives their pilots vital search and rescue experience in a real-world environment with genuine pressure, rather than going into potential warzones without any experience. The ambulance service was saying yesterday that they had three vehicles on site as a precaution and that they had at no point been overstretched - this also seems to be an invention of Cassandra.
In short, don't believe everything you see in the media...
In reply to psd: Police and the RAF confirmed that all missing runners were located after hundreds had been left stranded in the Honister Pass area of the Lake District.
sky news website
sky news website
In reply to davefount: " carried a signficant of extra and totally useless weight."
Not if it worked, you didn't - it might have saved your life - and with the average mobile phone weighing about 100g it's hardly "significant", is it?
Not if it worked, you didn't - it might have saved your life - and with the average mobile phone weighing about 100g it's hardly "significant", is it?
In reply to indalo:
Meanwhile, and the reason I popped on, is
SKY NEWS NOW REPORT ALL RUNNERS ACCOUNTED FOR.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/58wv9o
Meanwhile, and the reason I popped on, is
SKY NEWS NOW REPORT ALL RUNNERS ACCOUNTED FOR.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/58wv9o
In reply to indalo:
I referenced the '3' due to this on sky news.com
Sky's North of England correspondent Mike McCarthy said:"There are three people still not accounted for, which when you consider there were 2,500 taking part in this event, is not entirely unexpected."
I referenced the '3' due to this on sky news.com
Sky's North of England correspondent Mike McCarthy said:"There are three people still not accounted for, which when you consider there were 2,500 taking part in this event, is not entirely unexpected."
In reply to IainRUK:
The event this year was as well run as always, there was endless soup and tea the HQ to keep people warm, most of us slept in our cars, those whose cars were flooded slept in the barn.
There was no comms and the HQ was cut off, that made life hard for the organisers, but they coped.
On the way to the event the Marshalls were telling people to park on the field NOT on the verges. The cars parked on the field were a bit stuck in the mud for a bit (though could be pushed out) only those on the verges got flooded. If people had listened to the marshalls then their cars would have stayed dry.
The weather was quite bad, we got to honister before being told it was off, to be honest we were gutted as we were going well. Both warm and both dry because we read the weather forecast and packed accordingly. No one made us go up the hill in those conditions, the event is about taking personal responsibility. The organisers are going to get flak, most of it unwarranted, I for one am looking forward to next year.
The event this year was as well run as always, there was endless soup and tea the HQ to keep people warm, most of us slept in our cars, those whose cars were flooded slept in the barn.
There was no comms and the HQ was cut off, that made life hard for the organisers, but they coped.
On the way to the event the Marshalls were telling people to park on the field NOT on the verges. The cars parked on the field were a bit stuck in the mud for a bit (though could be pushed out) only those on the verges got flooded. If people had listened to the marshalls then their cars would have stayed dry.
The weather was quite bad, we got to honister before being told it was off, to be honest we were gutted as we were going well. Both warm and both dry because we read the weather forecast and packed accordingly. No one made us go up the hill in those conditions, the event is about taking personal responsibility. The organisers are going to get flak, most of it unwarranted, I for one am looking forward to next year.
In reply to Simon Overton:
I strongly recommed that you run the OMM before you comment so negativly against it.
It is easy to be so judjemental with hindsight. Im sure the organisers will learn from this years event, and apply the lessons in the future. You must remember how many years the event has been running. I doubt anyone could have run the event any better.
Having looked at the forcast it was each individuals choice to turn up to the event on friday and to start the race (or not) on saterday. The people who are responsible for the cars being stuck are the car drivers. The people who are responsible for being stuck on the fell, or being cold or wet are the runners themselves.
I strongly recommed that you run the OMM before you comment so negativly against it.
It is easy to be so judjemental with hindsight. Im sure the organisers will learn from this years event, and apply the lessons in the future. You must remember how many years the event has been running. I doubt anyone could have run the event any better.
Having looked at the forcast it was each individuals choice to turn up to the event on friday and to start the race (or not) on saterday. The people who are responsible for the cars being stuck are the car drivers. The people who are responsible for being stuck on the fell, or being cold or wet are the runners themselves.
In reply to indalo:
Interestingly, the number of people who went to hospital seems to only be about 2-3 times higher (relatively speaking) than the figures I've dragged up for the 2003 London marathon (58 from 32,000). Considering the difference in terrain and conditions, it's surprising that it's that close.
Interestingly, the number of people who went to hospital seems to only be about 2-3 times higher (relatively speaking) than the figures I've dragged up for the 2003 London marathon (58 from 32,000). Considering the difference in terrain and conditions, it's surprising that it's that close.
In reply to andy: Im not sure how effective a phone alone could be at saving my life, in poor weather. The weight issue depends on the individuals way of thinking. It's a personal choice, akin to whether you fry or grill your bacon!
In reply to davefount: i don't be to be flipent by my analogy
In reply to KeithWakeley:
Thanks for providing a balanced report and for grounding it in reality. Much appreciated. Hopefully one or two with a talent for amateur dramatics have read it too.
Thanks for providing a balanced report and for grounding it in reality. Much appreciated. Hopefully one or two with a talent for amateur dramatics have read it too.
In reply to steveP:
it's put me right off him, flying to work in his helicopter WTF!
and can't even afford a decent web designer- his site sucks!
> (In reply to Beowulf)
>
> The chap from the Honister Slate mine managed to get in some excellent free advertising for the via ferrata on his BBC interview. I'm sure that wouldn't have influenced his sensationalism.
>
> The chap from the Honister Slate mine managed to get in some excellent free advertising for the via ferrata on his BBC interview. I'm sure that wouldn't have influenced his sensationalism.
it's put me right off him, flying to work in his helicopter WTF!
and can't even afford a decent web designer- his site sucks!
In reply to all: As ever, people looked after people they had never met, helped eachother out, got through it together. Teamwork from everyone is my abiding memory of this year's event. The weather was foul, and my understanding is that it was called off cos MRTs were swamped with OMM folk and other missing folk too. A fair decision. The organisation of it all was phenomenal.
If any armchair health and safety fecker tries to say the OMM places people in unjustifiable situations of risk, he should stay well and truly in his armchair cosy at night while those who are prepared to get out into the ulu when the elements are against them do so. People got through the event in tough conditions by helping eachother out and through the amazing organisation. Long live the OMM!!
If any armchair health and safety fecker tries to say the OMM places people in unjustifiable situations of risk, he should stay well and truly in his armchair cosy at night while those who are prepared to get out into the ulu when the elements are against them do so. People got through the event in tough conditions by helping eachother out and through the amazing organisation. Long live the OMM!!
In reply to nickinscottishmountains: While I agree, I think the size of the OMM needs looking at.
In reply to IainRUK: Yes, a fair point.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
>People got through the event in tough conditions by helping each other out
I really can't be bothered to get mixed in with this, but just suffice it to say 'hear, hear' to nick. As someone who has done about 20 MM, I agree totally.
>People got through the event in tough conditions by helping each other out
> and through the amazing organisation. Long live the OMM!!
I really can't be bothered to get mixed in with this, but just suffice it to say 'hear, hear' to nick. As someone who has done about 20 MM, I agree totally.
In reply to indalo: I thought these OMMs were for hard people? how come they cancelled it?
In reply to Erik B: Erik, there was a big hue and cry ("Fools on the Hill!" in the Record) in the bad winter in, maybe, 94/95 where something like 40 people died that winter in Scotland. But a sport popular with middle class white blokes is never going to get banned. I actually wrote a thesis on the coverage of mountain rescue stories in the Scottish press that year - I got interviewed by BBC Scotland and all! Anyway - it was called "the failed construction of a moral panic" and anyone who has studied sociology will know where I knicked the title from. I remember a lecturer at Glasgow asking me rhetorically why the RAF don't send free helicopters into Drumchapel to pick up ODs - after all that is just as much a risk inherent in the junkies' hobby. It's a cheap point but a tricky one to answer.
Cairngorm was what 30 years ago? The impact was on what schools could do, just like the Lyme Bay thing ten or so years back. Not on individuals.
Cairngorm was what 30 years ago? The impact was on what schools could do, just like the Lyme Bay thing ten or so years back. Not on individuals.
In reply to niallk:
Crux Flak jacket. Stayed bone dry (though my pockets filled with water).
I also took ski goggles, a wise move I thought as I could see when walking into the wind.
> (In reply to KeithWakeley)
>
> What sort of cags were you wearing as mine had completely wetted out?
>
> What sort of cags were you wearing as mine had completely wetted out?
Crux Flak jacket. Stayed bone dry (though my pockets filled with water).
I also took ski goggles, a wise move I thought as I could see when walking into the wind.
Ah....but it gets better. He is now pushing for a National Mountain Centre (could be that there's an ideal site at Honister perhaps????) so that we can learn to respect the Lake District peaks and prevent these things from happening.
http://www.honister-slate-mine.co.uk/honister_slate_mine.asp
And perhaps this has to be the best line on the page-
"In order to educate people about the dangers and the geography of the area, Mr Weir operates a Via Ferrata experience, which is the only one of its kind in the UK".
http://www.honister-slate-mine.co.uk/honister_slate_mine.asp
And perhaps this has to be the best line on the page-
"In order to educate people about the dangers and the geography of the area, Mr Weir operates a Via Ferrata experience, which is the only one of its kind in the UK".
In reply to IainRUK:
yeah, i was amazed by the thousands missing in the lakes headlines- i didn't realise the scale of such events
> (In reply to nickinscottishmountains) While I agree, I think the size of the OMM needs looking at.
yeah, i was amazed by the thousands missing in the lakes headlines- i didn't realise the scale of such events
In reply to jan.a:
>
Thankfully.
>
> "[...] Mr Weir operates a Via Ferrata experience, which is the only one of its kind in the UK".
Thankfully.
In reply to Franco Cookson:
If you read the posts above, you'll see this question has been answered.
> (In reply to indalo) I thought these OMMs were for hard people? how come they cancelled it?
If you read the posts above, you'll see this question has been answered.
In reply to TRNovice: That there is one at all is a disgrace, let alone one in a national park.
In reply to KeithWakeley:
Saw a couple of peeps in goggles at the HQ afterwards (possibly you) and thought a wise move. I had a lightweight Lowe job, anticipating being able to move faster. In retrospect I should have used my XCR, but that said my partner's wetted through as did our pac-lite troos.
Saw a couple of peeps in goggles at the HQ afterwards (possibly you) and thought a wise move. I had a lightweight Lowe job, anticipating being able to move faster. In retrospect I should have used my XCR, but that said my partner's wetted through as did our pac-lite troos.
In reply to Franco Cookson: i guess this is a light breeze compared with your T3 experiences
http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/racereport.php?page_action=rep&race_id=6...
http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/racereport.php?page_action=rep&race_id=6...
In reply to TobyA: a lot has changed in society since the mid 90's, ask any primary school teacher
In reply to psd: Do you think those folks in the MRT's would rather have been at home or outside in such foul weather???? Ans so far as the Organisation for this situation to occur someone failed, wether it be underestimating the weather or not forseeing the shortcomings of the location or infrastructure.
The lessons that have to be learned from here are more along the lines of how utterly lucky they have been. Just envisage how much worse this could have been. Thankfully everyone is now accounted for.A few more minor factors could have made this a potential disaster.Not all racers are in peak condition.
The lessons that have to be learned from here are more along the lines of how utterly lucky they have been. Just envisage how much worse this could have been. Thankfully everyone is now accounted for.A few more minor factors could have made this a potential disaster.Not all racers are in peak condition.
In reply to TobyA:
of course not, but it could get regulated more- like climbing permits etc
> (In reply to Erik B) But a sport popular with middle class white blokes is never going to get banned.
of course not, but it could get regulated more- like climbing permits etc
In reply to davefount: "Im not sure how effective a phone alone could be at saving my life, in poor weather."
Don't be such a nob - if you were hurt, stuck or otherwise incapacitated being able to call for help could save hours in case of rescue. If you've seen how fast someone can deteriorate with hypothermia then you'd know that time is of the essence. The difference between someone having to get off the hill before calling for help and being able to do it from the scene is potentially significant.
"The weight issue depends on the individuals way of thinking."
Hardly - it's a trade off between potentially being able to get help quicker if required, compared with less than 100g of extra weight. You could probably save that weight by pushing a bit harder when you go for your pre-start poo.
Don't be such a nob - if you were hurt, stuck or otherwise incapacitated being able to call for help could save hours in case of rescue. If you've seen how fast someone can deteriorate with hypothermia then you'd know that time is of the essence. The difference between someone having to get off the hill before calling for help and being able to do it from the scene is potentially significant.
"The weight issue depends on the individuals way of thinking."
Hardly - it's a trade off between potentially being able to get help quicker if required, compared with less than 100g of extra weight. You could probably save that weight by pushing a bit harder when you go for your pre-start poo.
In reply to sutty: Sorry, what have i said that you are unable to understand. How can i simplify it for you???
Someone F***ed up..
everyone is safe thankfully...
Who didnt pull the plug when they should have.
Someone F***ed up..
everyone is safe thankfully...
Who didnt pull the plug when they should have.
In reply to all:
Quite interesting to read all the comments.
Just sorting out my stuff having got home just afetr midday. Finished our course and were told it was cancelled and told to wait in the barn next to the campsite (which had flooded). Spent a very convivial and relatively comfy night in the windy and damp barn then walked back to HQ this morning, jumped in the van and drove out of the field and headed home.
The media has made made the whole event into something it was not. Evryone knew the forecast and had (hopefully) had packed accordingly. I was quite surprised at the amout of warm clothing "elite" runners had and was told they new it was going to be wet, then get cold.
It waqs my first event, loved it and will be signing up for next year's event. Now where can I get a balloon bed from.....
Quite interesting to read all the comments.
Just sorting out my stuff having got home just afetr midday. Finished our course and were told it was cancelled and told to wait in the barn next to the campsite (which had flooded). Spent a very convivial and relatively comfy night in the windy and damp barn then walked back to HQ this morning, jumped in the van and drove out of the field and headed home.
The media has made made the whole event into something it was not. Evryone knew the forecast and had (hopefully) had packed accordingly. I was quite surprised at the amout of warm clothing "elite" runners had and was told they new it was going to be wet, then get cold.
It waqs my first event, loved it and will be signing up for next year's event. Now where can I get a balloon bed from.....
In reply to muppetfilter:
Anything Else We Should Know
I will not sleep while one person remains on the internet i believe to be wrong.....
Anything Else We Should Know
I will not sleep while one person remains on the internet i believe to be wrong.....
In reply to muppetfilter:
In reply to petestack:
> Who didnt pull the plug when they should have.
In reply to petestack:
> So you can say the organisers should cancel (when they're damned for nannying) or you can say they shouldn't (when they're damned for not nannying), but ultimately they pretty well have to leave the choice up to the competitors if they're not going to be accused of saying 'this is safe' or 'we guarantee your safety' (which they clearly can't do).
In reply to pog100:
Yep, you're not the first to cite that in discussions here!
> (In reply to muppetfilter)
>
> Anything Else We Should Know
> I will not sleep while one person remains on the internet i believe to be wrong.....
>
> Anything Else We Should Know
> I will not sleep while one person remains on the internet i believe to be wrong.....
Yep, you're not the first to cite that in discussions here!
> (In reply to muppetfilter)
>
> Anything Else We Should Know
>
> Anything Else We Should Know
In reply to pog100 I have seen 1 severe case of hypothermia and three people on their way to it this year in only 3 races in lowland settings..
The severe case was being towed cycling and collapsed.
That help ?
In reply to muppetfilter: Damn right sunshine. I think the same logic should be applied to stop idiots trying to climb up vertical pieces of rock. I went past a place called Stanage Edge last weekend (some of you may have heard of it) and there were people climbing it! In the rain!! Someone needs to ban them before anyone gets hurt.
In reply to Anonymous:
Slopes, play nicely now.
>
> of course not, but it could get regulated more- like climbing permits etc
> of course not, but it could get regulated more- like climbing permits etc
Slopes, play nicely now.
In reply to petestack:
I don't think many of the so called 'disussions' around this thread are really worth the energy. I will go and clean the bog, it is more productive.
> (In reply to pog100)
> [...]
>
> Yep, you're not the first to cite that in discussions here!
> [...]
>
> Yep, you're not the first to cite that in discussions here!
I don't think many of the so called 'disussions' around this thread are really worth the energy. I will go and clean the bog, it is more productive.
In reply to Alyson: Sorry alison but it isnt the same, if we make a personal choice to go out and climb a vdiff it is totally different to asking people to come to an event we organise because we then have to accept responsibility for them......
A majority of the racers i have had the pleasure of meeting are seasoned and experienced . Some aren't and they are the ones that maybe cant make the most informed decisions
A majority of the racers i have had the pleasure of meeting are seasoned and experienced . Some aren't and they are the ones that maybe cant make the most informed decisions
In reply to muppetfilter:
At 3am this morning in the barn at Gatesgarth, i was thinking the same thing. From me and my partners perspective we were allowed to arrive at midway camp having completed our course, pitch the tent and get our heads down for 30 minutes before being told the event had been cancelled. Information coming through was contradictory and we set off over Honister in conditions i have never seen the like of before. At Honister we were told to get in the cafe at the mines from where Mark Weir was giving out free tea and coffee. The use of his landrovers and other vehicles helped get cold, tired runners back down to Buttermere. Very generous, considering he seemed very pissed off with the organisers. We were then instructed to go back to Gatescarth farm to await coaches out to Cockermouth. This never materialised and we spent the night with around 200 other folk in an open barn. After an uncomfortable night we were told at 6am that the roads were now open. As someone pointed out on another forum we weren't told on arrival at the HQ that the media had grabbed the story as headline news and that worried relatives might want to be informed of our welfare straight away. Anyway bollocks to it all, we had a good crack, it was my birthday yesterday and i spent it in the best way possible, covered in shite! Thanks for another interesting event.
> (In reply to sutty) Sorry, what have i said that you are unable to understand. How can i simplify it for you???
>
> Someone F***ed up..
>
> everyone is safe thankfully...
>
> Who didnt pull the plug when they should have.
>
> Someone F***ed up..
>
> everyone is safe thankfully...
>
> Who didnt pull the plug when they should have.
At 3am this morning in the barn at Gatesgarth, i was thinking the same thing. From me and my partners perspective we were allowed to arrive at midway camp having completed our course, pitch the tent and get our heads down for 30 minutes before being told the event had been cancelled. Information coming through was contradictory and we set off over Honister in conditions i have never seen the like of before. At Honister we were told to get in the cafe at the mines from where Mark Weir was giving out free tea and coffee. The use of his landrovers and other vehicles helped get cold, tired runners back down to Buttermere. Very generous, considering he seemed very pissed off with the organisers. We were then instructed to go back to Gatescarth farm to await coaches out to Cockermouth. This never materialised and we spent the night with around 200 other folk in an open barn. After an uncomfortable night we were told at 6am that the roads were now open. As someone pointed out on another forum we weren't told on arrival at the HQ that the media had grabbed the story as headline news and that worried relatives might want to be informed of our welfare straight away. Anyway bollocks to it all, we had a good crack, it was my birthday yesterday and i spent it in the best way possible, covered in shite! Thanks for another interesting event.
In reply to muppetfilter: Its Alyson. With a Y. And do you not take personal responsibility for your safety at a climbing wall, even though someone else has provided the facility?
At one point did anyone taking part in the OMM not make an informed decision? Or do you have some stats about bodies littering the fells that the rest of us haven't heard?
Everyone who enters the race takes responsibility for themselves, that's part of the appeal of it. Now crawl back under thy bridge.
At one point did anyone taking part in the OMM not make an informed decision? Or do you have some stats about bodies littering the fells that the rest of us haven't heard?
Everyone who enters the race takes responsibility for themselves, that's part of the appeal of it. Now crawl back under thy bridge.
In reply to muppet:
No doubt, the organisers will learn lessons, just as they have learnt lessons in every successive year and they will take these lessons onto next year just as they have always done.
To understand that is not exactly rocket science is it?
There. Was that simple enough for *you*?
The competitors that have posted on here have praised the organisation and taken full responsibility for their own decision to be on the fells.
Lots of people on the fells got soaked yesterday, unlike several people on this forum that just seem to have wet knickers!!
> (In reply to sutty) Sorry, what have i said that you are unable to understand. How can i simplify it for you???
No doubt, the organisers will learn lessons, just as they have learnt lessons in every successive year and they will take these lessons onto next year just as they have always done.
To understand that is not exactly rocket science is it?
There. Was that simple enough for *you*?
The competitors that have posted on here have praised the organisation and taken full responsibility for their own decision to be on the fells.
Lots of people on the fells got soaked yesterday, unlike several people on this forum that just seem to have wet knickers!!
In reply to muppetfilter:
Are you saying the organisers forced them to take part?
If you make a personal choice to climb a VDiff, how is entering and taking part in an OMM any different?
> (In reply to Alyson) Sorry alison but it isnt the same, if we make a personal choice to go out and climb a vdiff it is totally different to asking people to come to an event we organise because we then have to accept responsibility for them......
>
> A majority of the racers i have had the pleasure of meeting are seasoned and experienced . Some aren't and they are the ones that maybe cant make the most informed decisions
>
> A majority of the racers i have had the pleasure of meeting are seasoned and experienced . Some aren't and they are the ones that maybe cant make the most informed decisions
Are you saying the organisers forced them to take part?
If you make a personal choice to climb a VDiff, how is entering and taking part in an OMM any different?
In reply to muppetfilter:
i think you've got this the wrong way around
i used to help set-up, organise and marshall car rallys - you know the sort of thing - mk2 escorts round welsh forests
the feel and intent of the thing wasn't 'we are providing an event and encouraging people to turn up' - it was 'people want to do this activity - if someone isn't prepared to organise stuff nobody will be able to' - i imagine that the organisers of events like the OMM are much the same
> (In reply to Alyson) totally different to asking people to come to an event we organise because we then have to accept responsibility for them......
i think you've got this the wrong way around
i used to help set-up, organise and marshall car rallys - you know the sort of thing - mk2 escorts round welsh forests
the feel and intent of the thing wasn't 'we are providing an event and encouraging people to turn up' - it was 'people want to do this activity - if someone isn't prepared to organise stuff nobody will be able to' - i imagine that the organisers of events like the OMM are much the same
In reply to muppetfilter: Sorry I disagree. You enter a race, you aren't forced to enter or carry on. I dropped out of a race in France (in fact I think I was in Switzerland at the time) this year, I was dehydrated. I don't blame the organisers for holding an event in 30 Deg heat. I knew what was coming, tried and failed. But it was my call to still try to run.
In reply to Erik B: But in terms of climbing in the UK what has changed exactly? Besides it's more popular than ever and more and more a significant part of the leisure economy?
I don't think there is any evidence that middle class white blokes have any less social capital than in the mid-90s, although it would be nice to think this might be so.
I don't think there is any evidence that middle class white blokes have any less social capital than in the mid-90s, although it would be nice to think this might be so.
In reply to pog100:
>. I will go and clean the bog, it is more productive
LOL, I went and painted round my window, now the leaves have blown off the tree outside the curtains need putting back up.
>. I will go and clean the bog, it is more productive
LOL, I went and painted round my window, now the leaves have blown off the tree outside the curtains need putting back up.
In reply to TobyA: Im talking more about the public perception of dangerous sports and how this could ultimately impact our freedom to enjoy such sports
In reply to Erik B:
I posted a BBC news link to the Ten Tors challenge in which 2,100 youngsters (16 - 20 year olds) were evacuated by helicopters in 2007 due to bad weather, I don't know whether you saw it?
The event took place again this year and they are accepting entries for next year.
There has been no negative impact on the challenge in general of taking to the hills and backpacking as a result of the Ten Tors incident, and none to the TT Challenge itself. I suspect the media will bore of the OMM by tomorrow and there will be no repercussions in respect of MM's either.
I posted a BBC news link to the Ten Tors challenge in which 2,100 youngsters (16 - 20 year olds) were evacuated by helicopters in 2007 due to bad weather, I don't know whether you saw it?
The event took place again this year and they are accepting entries for next year.
There has been no negative impact on the challenge in general of taking to the hills and backpacking as a result of the Ten Tors incident, and none to the TT Challenge itself. I suspect the media will bore of the OMM by tomorrow and there will be no repercussions in respect of MM's either.
In reply to Erik B: one possible solution which could have avoided much of carnage due to the conditions, may have been to only allow the elite athletes to compete?
In reply to all: i will respond later, at the moment i'm on a nice warm train with a can of old speckled. all and i mean all my kit will take about a month to dry and is stinking up the train right nowand too worn at to go into it but thanks to the nice lad who after my friend dropped me at penrith ST with a 3 hour wait for just asking me which way you going,then dropping me at preston meaning ididn't have to wait and now will get home an hour and half earlier to my bed and dry warm clothes!!!!!!
Is this Mark Weir chappie deliberately stirring it?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7691893.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7691893.stm
In reply to jonnie:
<Coffee/keyboard interface!>
Yes, that just about sums it up.
;~)
>
> Lots of people on the fells got soaked yesterday, unlike several people on this forum that just seem to have wet knickers!!
> Lots of people on the fells got soaked yesterday, unlike several people on this forum that just seem to have wet knickers!!
<Coffee/keyboard interface!>
Yes, that just about sums it up.
;~)
In reply to sutty:
and a bottle of laudenum.. Coleridge mananged Ambleside to Keswick and ablutions in time for early luncheon..
> (In reply to Anonymous)
>
> would that mean only those who had a cigar cutter in their kit then?
>
> would that mean only those who had a cigar cutter in their kit then?
and a bottle of laudenum.. Coleridge mananged Ambleside to Keswick and ablutions in time for early luncheon..
In reply to indalo:
Quotes from the Honister Mine man:
"On a good day, this place is heaven on earth. In extreme freak weather like this, it is hell."
"We have come within inches of turning the Lake District mountains into a morgue. We need to learn from it."
Sounds like somebody enjoys the sound of his own voice. He's going to stick his foot in something nasty, mouthing off like that.
Quotes from the Honister Mine man:
"On a good day, this place is heaven on earth. In extreme freak weather like this, it is hell."
"We have come within inches of turning the Lake District mountains into a morgue. We need to learn from it."
Sounds like somebody enjoys the sound of his own voice. He's going to stick his foot in something nasty, mouthing off like that.
In reply to Alex Roddie:
Feckin' muppet! I think the latest report on sleepmonsters provides a slightly more accurate summary of the weekend's events!
http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/racereport.php?race_id=6846&article_id=5...
Feckin' muppet! I think the latest report on sleepmonsters provides a slightly more accurate summary of the weekend's events!
http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/racereport.php?race_id=6846&article_id=5...
To quote the last paragraph of Rob Howard's report "When the BBC interviewed OMM Director Mike Parsons it was as though they were speaking two different languages. The presenter became more and more confused as each question was met by an unexpected answer, until she eventually asked; “You mean there was no emergency here?” Mike’s answer was, “No, not really.” "
Sums it all up really!
Sums it all up really!
In reply to Niall: it's opium tincture these days- know any supplies?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Laudanum.jpeg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Laudanum.jpeg
In reply to dinkypen: Exactly! Having listened to news reports all day the BBC have been running around trying to get someone to condemn it, they should have interviewed the outraged muppetfilter and Simon Overton (who also seemed amazed that people who arent local should be allowed to run around his fells even though I cant stop him running down my street)
In reply to Fawksey: just remove their tags, and much incentive would be lost..
In reply to Removed User:
The Danish equivalent of BBC have been writing about the hundreds of missing extreme runners in England since yesterday.......
> (In reply to Removed Userindalo)
>
> This has just made the National news in Canada!
>
> This has just made the National news in Canada!
The Danish equivalent of BBC have been writing about the hundreds of missing extreme runners in England since yesterday.......
In reply to Anonymous: some people got wet, the fly boys got some air time and the MR got to play out, everyones a winner. Oh and some people got outraged and fell out of their armchairs.
In reply to Anonymous: You would think the BBC would be more inetrested in Mandy reducing aluminium taxes for his rich Russian friend.
In reply to Fawksey:
The money shot! Spot on!
> (In reply to Anonymous) some people got wet, the fly boys got some air time and the MR got to play out, everyones a winner. Oh and some people got outraged and fell out of their armchairs.
The money shot! Spot on!
In reply to Fawksey: i don't think the insurance guys are too happy, or maybe acts of God aren't covered?
In reply to Fawksey:
That completely creased me up!
> (In reply to Anonymous) some people got wet, the fly boys got some air time and the MR got to play out, everyones a winner. Oh and some people got outraged and fell out of their armchairs.
That completely creased me up!
In reply to Anonymous: Im sure they will come out winners in the end. I always thought it was wrong to gamble. (Ive just double checked, my heart isnt bleeding)
Ive paid car and/or bike insurance for nearly 30 years and never claimed. House insurance for 17 years and never claimed. They wont insure my life without a silly premium. So Ive no sympathy, theyve taken from me and never given back anything
Ive paid car and/or bike insurance for nearly 30 years and never claimed. House insurance for 17 years and never claimed. They wont insure my life without a silly premium. So Ive no sympathy, theyve taken from me and never given back anything
In reply to Stew.G:
You can buy 'old speckled hen' in cans? Ye gads, it worst than I thought.
> (In reply to all) i will respond later, at the moment i'm on a nice warm train with a can of old speckled.
You can buy 'old speckled hen' in cans? Ye gads, it worst than I thought.
In reply to indalo: BBC news now
I wonder if the media realise that the OMM's a two-day event - i.e. the competitors are SUPPOSED to be spending a night in the mountains...
In reply to indalo:
Just got home from the Lakes. Wasn't racing this year, but kind of wish I'd been involved in all the excitement! .
The roads were very, very flooded, and we were only round the Grizedale Forest area.
I can't believe how it is being reported - I actually got a text from my mum to tell me it had been called off and it had been all over the news!
It didn't stop raining all day yesterday where we were - had to get back in the car soaking wet after going for a run in the rain as it was still chucking it down and any attempt to get changed outside the car would have been futile. Husband was most distressed about his car!
Just got home from the Lakes. Wasn't racing this year, but kind of wish I'd been involved in all the excitement! .
The roads were very, very flooded, and we were only round the Grizedale Forest area.
I can't believe how it is being reported - I actually got a text from my mum to tell me it had been called off and it had been all over the news!
It didn't stop raining all day yesterday where we were - had to get back in the car soaking wet after going for a run in the rain as it was still chucking it down and any attempt to get changed outside the car would have been futile. Husband was most distressed about his car!
In reply to Alex Roddie: An Owl, two blades and a West Ham fan all managed to survive a traumatic night together in the camper van... Ran out of whiskey a bit sooner than we wanted but hey... that's Mountain Marathoning for you... !
As for the Honister Mine comments... what a prick. It was no worse really than expected, as we all expected hurricane winds, severe storms and flooding. Most people took extra provisions/clothing/care and sorted themselves out. Me and Blade aided two bust ankles but hey, that's what its all about. I feel sorry for the peoples whose cars flooded but that's what insurance is for. It's a massive event, a brilliant event, a proper event and an event which pokes the eye of the risk averse crowd who, quite frankly, are boring as hell.
OMM Forever!
As for the Honister Mine comments... what a prick. It was no worse really than expected, as we all expected hurricane winds, severe storms and flooding. Most people took extra provisions/clothing/care and sorted themselves out. Me and Blade aided two bust ankles but hey, that's what its all about. I feel sorry for the peoples whose cars flooded but that's what insurance is for. It's a massive event, a brilliant event, a proper event and an event which pokes the eye of the risk averse crowd who, quite frankly, are boring as hell.
OMM Forever!
In reply to Fawksey:Im not outraged, i am just glad things didnt go as badly as the potential was there for. After all why bother with BA when there might not be gas?? someone will drag you out when you are unconcious
same surely.....
same surely.....
In reply to Harry The Owl: heres me thinking it was a tough event, just goes to show the pish folk spout on here!
In reply to muppetfilter:
Hasn't the water gone down enough for you to get back under your bridge yet?
Hasn't the water gone down enough for you to get back under your bridge yet?
In reply to muppetfilter: But we dont do that. We carry an oxygen regeneration set and a couple of like minded people stay in reserve with BA sets just in case.
A bit like mountain marathon runners and their like minded freinds in MR really. : )
A bit like mountain marathon runners and their like minded freinds in MR really. : )
In reply to HC~F:
I know another audi owner who gets his knickers in a knot if you do anything in/to the car that makes it look less than pristine....
Has it got leather seats?
> (In reply to indalo)
>
> Husband was most distressed about his car!
>
> Husband was most distressed about his car!
I know another audi owner who gets his knickers in a knot if you do anything in/to the car that makes it look less than pristine....
Has it got leather seats?
In reply to Anonymous:
A bit eliminate though surely.
> (In reply to TRNovice) you can still scramble for free on honister crag, presumably?
A bit eliminate though surely.
In reply to the thread: I was relieved to hear that everyone who took part has been accounted for. OMMers are a tough bunch.
In reply to Fawksey:
I have a sneaking suspicion that lobbying may well soon begin to make inroads with regards insurance being a prerequisite to the utilisation of the outdoors for recreation purposes. Holiday insurance is seen as normal, recreation insurance will inevitably follow.... the door is half open anyway.
I have a sneaking suspicion that lobbying may well soon begin to make inroads with regards insurance being a prerequisite to the utilisation of the outdoors for recreation purposes. Holiday insurance is seen as normal, recreation insurance will inevitably follow.... the door is half open anyway.
In reply to jim robertson: Haven't particularly read all the reports, but did MRT or the choppers rescue many folk? Or did they, as you would expect, on the whole get themselves off the hill with no fuss?
In reply to jim robertson: where do you start? Two 15 year olds with an ASDA bag containg twix's and cans of Fanta on Striding edge? A woman walking her dog on the far side of Rydal water? Who needs the insurance? Who rescues the woman walking her dog when she's not really on the hill or taking part in hillwalking as a recreation and yet the access is so difficult the ambulance cant get her off and it needs MR.
Whats the insurance for? If the ambulance takes you youve paid for it with taxes, if the MR get you then youve paod for it with your voluntary contributions.
Whats the insurance for? If the ambulance takes you youve paid for it with taxes, if the MR get you then youve paod for it with your voluntary contributions.
In reply to andy:
Complete media hype. We completed day one of Elite, got to the overnight camp and heard it was cancelled and were disappointed. Only found out about this alleged rescue operation later. Conditions were bad, but most people took it in good spirits and took some shelter, either in their tents or some barns that were offered or retired to hotels and pubs.
Of course they were unaccounted for on Saturday, because that's usually the case until Sunday evening when the race is finished!
Complete media hype. We completed day one of Elite, got to the overnight camp and heard it was cancelled and were disappointed. Only found out about this alleged rescue operation later. Conditions were bad, but most people took it in good spirits and took some shelter, either in their tents or some barns that were offered or retired to hotels and pubs.
Of course they were unaccounted for on Saturday, because that's usually the case until Sunday evening when the race is finished!
In reply to Toby S:
It gets him on the radio and telly to tell everyone about his extremely daring metalwork thingummy. Which is apparently a vital educational tool for explaining geology and the danger of the hills, rather than a device for extracting 20 quid a pop from danger-averse thrill-hunters who want to delegate their personal responsibility to one M Weir, slate-magnate and expert helicopter valet.
I'm sure he isn't presenting himself as the voice of outrage just because it buys him publicity. Honest...
> Is this Mark Weir chappie deliberately stirring it?
It gets him on the radio and telly to tell everyone about his extremely daring metalwork thingummy. Which is apparently a vital educational tool for explaining geology and the danger of the hills, rather than a device for extracting 20 quid a pop from danger-averse thrill-hunters who want to delegate their personal responsibility to one M Weir, slate-magnate and expert helicopter valet.
I'm sure he isn't presenting himself as the voice of outrage just because it buys him publicity. Honest...
In reply to andy:
Of course they did. Bad weather at the OMM is like a flaming chip pan at a firefighters' conference. I think a few people need to untwist their knickers.
> Or did they, as you would expect, on the whole get themselves off the hill with no fuss?
Of course they did. Bad weather at the OMM is like a flaming chip pan at a firefighters' conference. I think a few people need to untwist their knickers.
In reply to Fawksey: Good point - most of the MRT rescues the Dales teams do seem to involve sheep (and that's not the post-incident entertainment) or pensioners on bus trips.
In reply to psd:
Do you think he's lying about being a helicopter pilot?
You're wrong, he is!
> (In reply to Toby S)
> [...]
>
> and expert helicopter valet.
> [...]
>
> and expert helicopter valet.
Do you think he's lying about being a helicopter pilot?
>
> I'm sure he isn't presenting himself as the voice of outrage just because it buys him publicity. Honest...
> I'm sure he isn't presenting himself as the voice of outrage just because it buys him publicity. Honest...
You're wrong, he is!
In reply: How disappointing to see some of the OTT reaction to what has happened - you expect it from the media, but I expected better from many on here.
Fact is if you haven't got the relevant experience (entries are vetted for experience) or equipment (which is often checked) then you shouldn't be out there. We (like many others) tailor what we take to suit the conditions...if we had made it to the start then we would have had different kit and clothes compared to if the weather had been more gentle.
You expect the weather to be dreadful on the KIMM/OMM (it is more difficult to predict weather for the LAMM in June - one year we had pretty hot weather, next year snow and floods).
Personally I hope that the OMM doesn't change a bit.
I am genuinely shocked that climbers are displaying such ignorance about this given that the risks are so similar in many ways. We would rightly complain if people tried to impose restrictions on our ability to go out in the hills climbing - why should fell running be different? Many of the skills are hugely complimentary.
Mike
Fact is if you haven't got the relevant experience (entries are vetted for experience) or equipment (which is often checked) then you shouldn't be out there. We (like many others) tailor what we take to suit the conditions...if we had made it to the start then we would have had different kit and clothes compared to if the weather had been more gentle.
You expect the weather to be dreadful on the KIMM/OMM (it is more difficult to predict weather for the LAMM in June - one year we had pretty hot weather, next year snow and floods).
Personally I hope that the OMM doesn't change a bit.
I am genuinely shocked that climbers are displaying such ignorance about this given that the risks are so similar in many ways. We would rightly complain if people tried to impose restrictions on our ability to go out in the hills climbing - why should fell running be different? Many of the skills are hugely complimentary.
Mike
In reply to MJH:
This is the most perceptive comment on the Daily Mail site. Has anyone on here ever trampled on a toddler whilst for a run?
These runners are a menace - wearing away the Lake District, in danger of trampling on toddlers and pets, and ruining the quietness of the place. High time that mass events such as this were banned for the interests of all but a tiny minority. Mountain bikers are worse, of course.
- David Bachauer, Manchester UK, 26/10/2008 12:20
This is the most perceptive comment on the Daily Mail site. Has anyone on here ever trampled on a toddler whilst for a run?
These runners are a menace - wearing away the Lake District, in danger of trampling on toddlers and pets, and ruining the quietness of the place. High time that mass events such as this were banned for the interests of all but a tiny minority. Mountain bikers are worse, of course.
- David Bachauer, Manchester UK, 26/10/2008 12:20
In reply to MJH: Mike, try not to be too upset or annoyed, it was mainly two people on here. The vast majority wish the competitors of the OMM well and wish you all the best next year.
In reply to JB: ha ha ha - brilliant :¬)
In reply to jcharles:
No - I'm sure he can fly the thing. It's just that in interviews yesterday he seemed more pleased with the fact he could park it.
Anyone else feel sorry for the bloke married to "Laura", who has plagued several media organisations with her tale of woe? Asking us to "think of those left behind" - and with no news for 12 hours, all because of "their cheap thrills". Two questions. 1) How the hell has he resisted the urge not to check in, assume a false identity and start a new life? and 2) has she seen the price of gear these days? Cheap thrills my arse...
> (In reply to psd)
> [...]
>
> Do you think he's lying about being a helicopter pilot?
> [...]
>
> Do you think he's lying about being a helicopter pilot?
No - I'm sure he can fly the thing. It's just that in interviews yesterday he seemed more pleased with the fact he could park it.
Anyone else feel sorry for the bloke married to "Laura", who has plagued several media organisations with her tale of woe? Asking us to "think of those left behind" - and with no news for 12 hours, all because of "their cheap thrills". Two questions. 1) How the hell has he resisted the urge not to check in, assume a false identity and start a new life? and 2) has she seen the price of gear these days? Cheap thrills my arse...
In reply to indalo: I will never watch the telly again, I'm so miffed at the skewed reporting coming out of the Lakes. On the other hand, I'm not nearly as miffed as my brother was, lying comfortable and warm in his tent in Gatescarth, leading the race. The race being cancelled came as a bit of a surprise. He walked back over Honister, got in his van, waited for the water to drop a bit, and came home. Nae drama.
In reply to psd:
Could explain why she's not heard from him!
> (In reply to jcharles)
> [...]
>
>
>
> Anyone else feel sorry for the bloke married to "Laura", who has plagued several media organisations with her tale of woe? Asking us to "think of those left behind" - and with no news for 12 hours, all because of "their cheap thrills". Two questions. 1) How the hell has he resisted the urge not to check in, assume a false identity and start a new life?
> [...]
>
>
>
> Anyone else feel sorry for the bloke married to "Laura", who has plagued several media organisations with her tale of woe? Asking us to "think of those left behind" - and with no news for 12 hours, all because of "their cheap thrills". Two questions. 1) How the hell has he resisted the urge not to check in, assume a false identity and start a new life?
Could explain why she's not heard from him!
In reply to psd: I'm sure she also said he was in the forces - how did he marry this woman??
In reply to psd:
Post of this, and many another, week!!
> Anyone else feel sorry for the bloke married to "Laura", who has plagued several media organisations with her tale of woe? Asking us to "think of those left behind" - and with no news for 12 hours, all because of "their cheap thrills". Two questions. 1) How the hell has he resisted the urge not to check in, assume a false identity and start a new life? and 2) has she seen the price of gear these days? Cheap thrills my arse...
Post of this, and many another, week!!
In reply to psd:
http://www.honister-slate-mine.co.uk/
Oh my giddy aunt - I didn't manage to read it all the way through the first time, so I missed this bit:
"In order to help educate people about the unique geography of the area, the mine already operates a “Via Ferrata” experience.
It involves groups of visitors in harnesses and safety helmets being attached to a perilous cliff-face thousands of feet up the side of a mountain next to the mine and then led by fully-trained mountaineers. The experience has been devised as an introduction to both high mountain walking, basic climbing and gives a secure insight into what it must have been like for fell runners stuck on an exposed mountain side."
Wow. I mean just... <speechless>
http://www.honister-slate-mine.co.uk/
Oh my giddy aunt - I didn't manage to read it all the way through the first time, so I missed this bit:
"In order to help educate people about the unique geography of the area, the mine already operates a “Via Ferrata” experience.
It involves groups of visitors in harnesses and safety helmets being attached to a perilous cliff-face thousands of feet up the side of a mountain next to the mine and then led by fully-trained mountaineers. The experience has been devised as an introduction to both high mountain walking, basic climbing and gives a secure insight into what it must have been like for fell runners stuck on an exposed mountain side."
Wow. I mean just... <speechless>
In reply to deepsoup: It's at times like this I wish I was an accomplished website hacker. Anyone know one?
In reply to Anonymous:
No, but I know an inscrutable fella with a long white moustache who could point you in the right direction. Ah, proper old-school decadence eh?
> (In reply to Niall) it's opium tincture these days- know any supplies?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Laudanum.jpeg
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Laudanum.jpeg
No, but I know an inscrutable fella with a long white moustache who could point you in the right direction. Ah, proper old-school decadence eh?
In reply to indalo: I'm enjoying the comments from the UKCers who've checked in after their OMM ordeal. So far we've had 'the weather was quite bad' and the tragic story of someone running out of whisky a bit sooner than expected. Have they no respect for the enormity of the crisis?
In reply to galpinos:
Now where can I get a balloon bed from.....
just google balloon bed.
They really are the dog's danglies.
Now where can I get a balloon bed from.....
just google balloon bed.
They really are the dog's danglies.
yes made it home!!!!!! made sure i called the girls on the way to say all is fine. had to wait to find a call box, mobile screen now only suitable for housing gold fish.
In reply to deepsoup:
Got the number for the Advertising Standards Authority anyone???
> (In reply to psd)
> http://www.honister-slate-mine.co.uk/
> Oh my giddy aunt - I didn't manage to read it all the way through the first time, so I missed this bit:
>
> "In order to help educate people about the unique geography of the area, the mine already operates a “Via Ferrata” experience.
>
> It involves groups of visitors in harnesses and safety helmets being attached to a perilous cliff-face thousands of feet up the side of a mountain next to the mine and then led by fully-trained mountaineers. The experience has been devised as an introduction to both high mountain walking, basic climbing and gives a secure insight into what it must have been like for fell runners stuck on an exposed mountain side."
>
> Wow. I mean just... <speechless>
> http://www.honister-slate-mine.co.uk/
> Oh my giddy aunt - I didn't manage to read it all the way through the first time, so I missed this bit:
>
> "In order to help educate people about the unique geography of the area, the mine already operates a “Via Ferrata” experience.
>
> It involves groups of visitors in harnesses and safety helmets being attached to a perilous cliff-face thousands of feet up the side of a mountain next to the mine and then led by fully-trained mountaineers. The experience has been devised as an introduction to both high mountain walking, basic climbing and gives a secure insight into what it must have been like for fell runners stuck on an exposed mountain side."
>
> Wow. I mean just... <speechless>
Got the number for the Advertising Standards Authority anyone???
In reply to Alyson:
i sense you are not taking this subject as seroiusly as is warranted- people could have died out there this weekend..
> (In reply to indalo) Have they no respect for the enormity of the crisis?
i sense you are not taking this subject as seroiusly as is warranted- people could have died out there this weekend..
In reply to deepsoup:
Modest ain't he? I think he should get loads of medals and be made King of the World. And Life President of the all new Honister Dedicated Mountain Centre of Excellence and Slate or whatever it'll be called.
Modest ain't he? I think he should get loads of medals and be made King of the World. And Life President of the all new Honister Dedicated Mountain Centre of Excellence and Slate or whatever it'll be called.
In reply to all:
Glad everyone is now accounted for.
'Laura' may well be feeling like a right t*t now - maybe kinder not to rub it in?
As I think somebody commented above, I just hope that there isn't too much damage to property and livestock in Cumbria after this. That's probably much more of an issue really.
Glad everyone is now accounted for.
'Laura' may well be feeling like a right t*t now - maybe kinder not to rub it in?
As I think somebody commented above, I just hope that there isn't too much damage to property and livestock in Cumbria after this. That's probably much more of an issue really.
In reply to Anonymous:
I think she is putting it in perspective.
That's just my opinion, obviously not yours though.
> (In reply to Alyson)
> [...]
>
> i sense you are not taking this subject as seroiusly as is warranted- people could have died out there this weekend..
> [...]
>
> i sense you are not taking this subject as seroiusly as is warranted- people could have died out there this weekend..
I think she is putting it in perspective.
That's just my opinion, obviously not yours though.
In reply to Alyson: My worst problem was that I didn't go for a wee before getting in my car on Saturday afternoon, and didn't want to get out because it was quite wet out, so I was quite glad when it stopped raining on Sunday morning. Urm. So yeah. Oh, and cos I had wet hands for a while yesterday, I got a flapper on my hand from doing overhanging problems at the wall this afternoon. Er...
In reply to Anonymous:
Meanwhile, 2 kids died in a crash with a bus in London yesterday. When is someone going to force London Transport to stop providing people with an excuse to go on these vehicles?
For the record, nobody died on the infamous Honister Nordwand yesterday. People could have died, but luckily enough they were all equipped for a mountain marathon and so didn't. Which makes a rather more boring headline, eh?
> (In reply to Alyson)
> [...]
>
> i sense you are not taking this subject as seroiusly as is warranted- people could have died out there this weekend..
> [...]
>
> i sense you are not taking this subject as seroiusly as is warranted- people could have died out there this weekend..
Meanwhile, 2 kids died in a crash with a bus in London yesterday. When is someone going to force London Transport to stop providing people with an excuse to go on these vehicles?
For the record, nobody died on the infamous Honister Nordwand yesterday. People could have died, but luckily enough they were all equipped for a mountain marathon and so didn't. Which makes a rather more boring headline, eh?
In reply to Stew.G:
I hope you've contacted the BBC to have your harrowing experience added to the website.
> mobile screen now only suitable for housing gold fish.
I hope you've contacted the BBC to have your harrowing experience added to the website.
In reply to psd:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1080406/Floods-turned-mountains-mor...
I know of someone who's probably on the blower right now complaining bitterly that they spelt his name wrong. He's an accomplished helicopter pilot and professional bad-weather pundit you know.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1080406/Floods-turned-mountains-mor...
I know of someone who's probably on the blower right now complaining bitterly that they spelt his name wrong. He's an accomplished helicopter pilot and professional bad-weather pundit you know.
In reply to deepsoup: that website is so bad, it doesn't need hacking
In reply to psd:
I notice the plane crash in Ireland, in yesterday's bad weather, which killed four also didn't get the airtime the OMM did.
Condolences to the family and friends of the victims of that tragedy.
I notice the plane crash in Ireland, in yesterday's bad weather, which killed four also didn't get the airtime the OMM did.
Condolences to the family and friends of the victims of that tragedy.
In reply to KeithW: when i finally cam across my mate and hes parter this morning, and the bloke who gave me a lift said the same thing, both were more p**sed off it was stopped. both teams kept going to the overnight. and only found out when they got there
In reply to Niall: green funerals @ honister- now that's an idea..
In reply to Niall:
‘Commenting on reports from Sky News that all of the runners have now been accounted for, Mr Weir said: "We have come within inches of turning the Lake District mountains into a morgue."’
Can't claim to know much about mountain marathons, but I've certainly been on the hills in traditional British weather. Based on this vast experience, I'd suggest the above being something of a non-sequitur: "all fine, but hundreds could have died*", would seem to be his logic.
I'd say that Mr Weir is perhaps confused about how long an inch is. A sad comment on the British Education system really.
* There was one report about a severly hypothermic woman taken to hospital - I'm hoping that the comments about all be OK includes her as well.
‘Commenting on reports from Sky News that all of the runners have now been accounted for, Mr Weir said: "We have come within inches of turning the Lake District mountains into a morgue."’
Can't claim to know much about mountain marathons, but I've certainly been on the hills in traditional British weather. Based on this vast experience, I'd suggest the above being something of a non-sequitur: "all fine, but hundreds could have died*", would seem to be his logic.
I'd say that Mr Weir is perhaps confused about how long an inch is. A sad comment on the British Education system really.
* There was one report about a severly hypothermic woman taken to hospital - I'm hoping that the comments about all be OK includes her as well.
In reply to Niall:
If the photo in that article is the one opposite the Lodore Hotel, then someone should let the paper know it floods about every other time it rains.
Ohhhh silly me.....
They aren't interested in FACTS!
Ho-hum.
:~/
> (In reply to psd)
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1080406/Floods-turned-mountains-mor...
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1080406/Floods-turned-mountains-mor...
If the photo in that article is the one opposite the Lodore Hotel, then someone should let the paper know it floods about every other time it rains.
Ohhhh silly me.....
They aren't interested in FACTS!
Ho-hum.
:~/
In reply to Stew.G:
The participants experiences - check out Clyde Mitchell's account...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7691338.stm
The participants experiences - check out Clyde Mitchell's account...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7691338.stm
In reply to Humphrey Jungle:
That is actually pretty inspiring and humbling - maybe there is hope for me yet!
That is actually pretty inspiring and humbling - maybe there is hope for me yet!
In reply to Niall:
How very Daily Mail. I'm sure the MRT's are chuffed that Mr Weir is speaking on behalf of the 'rescue operation' now.
According to the Washington Times:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/oct/26/british-mountain-race-runne...
The OMM takes place over mountains as high as 7054 feet.
Think there'll be a hollywood blockbuster made out of this? Something along the lines of Vertical Limit perhaps? Who's going to play Mark Weir (the hero, natch)?
How very Daily Mail. I'm sure the MRT's are chuffed that Mr Weir is speaking on behalf of the 'rescue operation' now.
According to the Washington Times:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/oct/26/british-mountain-race-runne...
The OMM takes place over mountains as high as 7054 feet.
Think there'll be a hollywood blockbuster made out of this? Something along the lines of Vertical Limit perhaps? Who's going to play Mark Weir (the hero, natch)?
In reply to deepsoup:
.
Brian Blessed?
.
>
> Think there'll be a hollywood blockbuster made out of this? Something along the lines of Vertical Limit perhaps? Who's going to play Mark Weir (the hero, natch)?
> Think there'll be a hollywood blockbuster made out of this? Something along the lines of Vertical Limit perhaps? Who's going to play Mark Weir (the hero, natch)?
Brian Blessed?
In reply to indalo:
Could I, as someone who was there (Long Score), ask for what reason/s do people think the decision to cancel the event before midday on Saturday was based on or taken for?
Could I, as someone who was there (Long Score), ask for what reason/s do people think the decision to cancel the event before midday on Saturday was based on or taken for?
In reply to brt:
I would guess the organisers were worried about people not being able to get out of the valley when the cars were under water and not so much about what it was like on the hill.
If you do know then please let us know as there is too much speculation and armchair procrastination going on.
<hangs head guiltily>
I would guess the organisers were worried about people not being able to get out of the valley when the cars were under water and not so much about what it was like on the hill.
If you do know then please let us know as there is too much speculation and armchair procrastination going on.
<hangs head guiltily>
In reply to Ghastly Rubberfeet:
Sylvester Stallone, of course!
> (In reply to deepsoup)
> Brian Blessed?
> Brian Blessed?
Sylvester Stallone, of course!
In reply to Ghastly Rubberfeet:
I know what I was told (which was little).
There is a point to to my question which unfortunately borders on the critical of the organisers.
No, I don't think it was overwhelmingly about hill conditions, but...
I know what I was told (which was little).
There is a point to to my question which unfortunately borders on the critical of the organisers.
No, I don't think it was overwhelmingly about hill conditions, but...
In reply to petestack:
No way!
He hasn't got the pomposity of BB
Though he is hammy enough.
> (In reply to Ghastly Rubberfeet)
> [...]
>
> Sylvester Stallone, of course!
> [...]
>
> Sylvester Stallone, of course!
No way!
He hasn't got the pomposity of BB
Though he is hammy enough.
In reply to brt:
Critical that it was cancelled or critical that it was started?
> (In reply to Ghastly Rubberfeet)
>
> There is a point to to my question which unfortunately borders on the critical of the organisers.
>
> There is a point to to my question which unfortunately borders on the critical of the organisers.
Critical that it was cancelled or critical that it was started?
In reply to brt:
The reason I saw given was that MRT were overwhelmed. A scan of the various MRT sites shows there were a number of shouts not related to the OMM, so they were having a busy day in worsening conditions. The OMM wasn't going to help ease that!!
What are your thoughts brt?
The reason I saw given was that MRT were overwhelmed. A scan of the various MRT sites shows there were a number of shouts not related to the OMM, so they were having a busy day in worsening conditions. The OMM wasn't going to help ease that!!
What are your thoughts brt?
In reply to jonnie:
Haven't heard that cited as a reason.
My thoughts? Can I keep my own counsel for a while? Thanks.
Haven't heard that cited as a reason.
My thoughts? Can I keep my own counsel for a while? Thanks.
In reply to brt: Safely ensconced in my armchair, but having heard from competitors, hill conditions don't seem to have been much worse than the Horrible Howgills, or Glorious Galloway. Similarly the overnight campsite was not too disastrous (I camped under water in the Howgills), although it's worth remembering that in days of yore the camps were separate, and so greater numbers in one place this weekend would have a much larger impact. A large number of runners were looking forward to better weather and a good day's running on Sunday.
And so....why was it called off? Must be something to do with Borrowdale HQ surely; and the fact that the event centre was isolated, and looked like it would be for a while, must be a factor. It's all very well having an emergency plan, but if the hub is isolated that plan could get very messy very quickly. Otherwise the best course is surely to let retirements occur at their natural rate, rather than precipitate (hmmm) a crisis.
Having said that, I think it was a brave decision, and any decision must be better than no decision at all. It's just a pity the Meeja needed something with which to fill their empty little lives.
And so....why was it called off? Must be something to do with Borrowdale HQ surely; and the fact that the event centre was isolated, and looked like it would be for a while, must be a factor. It's all very well having an emergency plan, but if the hub is isolated that plan could get very messy very quickly. Otherwise the best course is surely to let retirements occur at their natural rate, rather than precipitate (hmmm) a crisis.
Having said that, I think it was a brave decision, and any decision must be better than no decision at all. It's just a pity the Meeja needed something with which to fill their empty little lives.
In reply to brt:
Lots of people seem to have viewed the topic since I posted the question. Not many offered an opinion (as yet).
Easy question...
given that there were there were three flood warnings and nine flood watches for that area and the weather that was forecast (gales and rain; lots of it)... how many people would have ventured out? Be honest.
Lots of people seem to have viewed the topic since I posted the question. Not many offered an opinion (as yet).
Easy question...
given that there were there were three flood warnings and nine flood watches for that area and the weather that was forecast (gales and rain; lots of it)... how many people would have ventured out? Be honest.
In reply to indalo: conditions looked fun. but at least there is some sense on t'internet to refer the muppets onto; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7691338.stm
The latest news bulletin has the organisers saying there was an over-reaction from the emergency services. If anything might change for future events, then it may be to scale the numbers down if weather conditions are that serious again.
Remember don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!
The latest news bulletin has the organisers saying there was an over-reaction from the emergency services. If anything might change for future events, then it may be to scale the numbers down if weather conditions are that serious again.
Remember don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!
In reply to Ghastly Rubberfeet:
Just thought he's got the perfect pedigree after Cliffhanger!
> (In reply to petestack)
> No way!
>
> He hasn't got the pomposity of BB
>
> Though he is hammy enough.
> No way!
>
> He hasn't got the pomposity of BB
>
> Though he is hammy enough.
Just thought he's got the perfect pedigree after Cliffhanger!
In reply to brt:
Plenty of answers to that question on this thread:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=325667
> (In reply to brt)
>
>
> Easy question...
>
> given that there were there were three flood warnings and nine flood watches for that area and the weather that was forecast (gales and rain; lots of it)... how many people would have ventured out? Be honest.
>
>
> Easy question...
>
> given that there were there were three flood warnings and nine flood watches for that area and the weather that was forecast (gales and rain; lots of it)... how many people would have ventured out? Be honest.
Plenty of answers to that question on this thread:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=325667
In reply to brt:
Conditions weren't as bad here, but we generally go out in any weather, every weekend. This weekend I had the Snowdonia Marathon but my wife ran up Garn yesterday, didn't quite make the summit as the dogs were getting battered by the wind.
http://sarzmountainrun.blogspot.com/2008/10/tiring-dogs-out.html
But we normally try to do something every weekend, just pick the route to suit conditions.
> (In reply to brt)
>
>
> given that there were there were three flood warnings and nine flood watches for that area and the weather that was forecast (gales and rain; lots of it)... how many people would have ventured out? Be honest.
>
>
> given that there were there were three flood warnings and nine flood watches for that area and the weather that was forecast (gales and rain; lots of it)... how many people would have ventured out? Be honest.
Conditions weren't as bad here, but we generally go out in any weather, every weekend. This weekend I had the Snowdonia Marathon but my wife ran up Garn yesterday, didn't quite make the summit as the dogs were getting battered by the wind.
http://sarzmountainrun.blogspot.com/2008/10/tiring-dogs-out.html
But we normally try to do something every weekend, just pick the route to suit conditions.
In reply to indalo:
Just spoken to a mate who was taking part this year - it was his partners first MM. They both had a good day, weren't really looking forward to a soggy night, but were prepared and in no danger at all.
Having said that, I don't think he was HUGELY upset that it got binned.
Says every competitor he's chatted to was of the same mind - it was grim, but they were prepared for it. After all, they're not school children, they weren't being forced to do it or anything.
They spent the night at Cockermouth (school I assume) and said that when the BBC crew came in in the evening (after the people there had all seen some of the rubbish reporting of the event) that there was a bit of a rush to get them to sod off.
Had already been in touch via text and knew they were both ok, but good to hear how cheerful they both were and that their car started ok!
Seems to have been massively overhyped by the media. Guess we shouldn't be too surprised though.
Si
Just spoken to a mate who was taking part this year - it was his partners first MM. They both had a good day, weren't really looking forward to a soggy night, but were prepared and in no danger at all.
Having said that, I don't think he was HUGELY upset that it got binned.
Says every competitor he's chatted to was of the same mind - it was grim, but they were prepared for it. After all, they're not school children, they weren't being forced to do it or anything.
They spent the night at Cockermouth (school I assume) and said that when the BBC crew came in in the evening (after the people there had all seen some of the rubbish reporting of the event) that there was a bit of a rush to get them to sod off.
Had already been in touch via text and knew they were both ok, but good to hear how cheerful they both were and that their car started ok!
Seems to have been massively overhyped by the media. Guess we shouldn't be too surprised though.
Si
In reply to Alyson:
Hey... Running out of whiskey early is only half the tragedy. As a group consisting of two experienced teams, we also got pretty stuck on finding suitable Qs in our Dunkirk spirit A to Z of 80s pop groups...
> (In reply to indalo) I'm enjoying the comments from the UKCers who've checked in after their OMM ordeal. So far we've had 'the weather was quite bad' and the tragic story of someone running out of whisky a bit sooner than expected. Have they no respect for the enormity of the crisis?
Hey... Running out of whiskey early is only half the tragedy. As a group consisting of two experienced teams, we also got pretty stuck on finding suitable Qs in our Dunkirk spirit A to Z of 80s pop groups...
In reply to jonnie:
Ah, you've already posted on that thread brt, so you already know the answer to the question!
So, what's on your mind?
Ah, you've already posted on that thread brt, so you already know the answer to the question!
So, what's on your mind?
In reply to Harry The Owl: Quo Vardis?
In reply to jonnie: maybe hes a policeman? or a journo?
In reply to jonnie: Q Tips?
In reply to brt: Yeah and I think the runners at the OMM did.
At this weekends marathon 500 runners didn't turn up. 1200 did. So rightly so the organisers decided that those 1200 knew the forecast and wanted to run, if they hadn't they wouldn't have turned up. Even though this was just a marathon and conditions weren't as bad, I think the same still stands for the OMM.
At this weekends marathon 500 runners didn't turn up. 1200 did. So rightly so the organisers decided that those 1200 knew the forecast and wanted to run, if they hadn't they wouldn't have turned up. Even though this was just a marathon and conditions weren't as bad, I think the same still stands for the OMM.
In reply to brt: KIMM result?
In reply to brt: Where the he'll were you lot in our hour of need? Huh? Excuse me but I must go get some post traumatic survivors counselling...
In reply to IainRUK: Tim was gutted. He was only out for just over 4 hours, and he said the planning was excellent. On a different note, if the organisers call it off, who is the winner?
In reply to control freak: my ignorance, I couldnt run for a bus
In reply to jonnie:
My mind?
The line that seems to be trotted out is that we're all adults, able to make a decision; a choice. Except when we pay to enter a race we have an interesting psychological shift. We have a buy in. In this case (the OMM) we have rather less of a choice once we accept that buy in.
For one we're going "after" a series of check points. Suddenly our choices are rather less. Ah, but we could have simply have not started. Except I've spent £85.00 (any chance of a refund if I decide not to race because it looks a bit hairy?) and an even larger amount in training and getting there. The advice given was stay of the high ground and avoid the rivers. Look at a map and try that and get the checkpoints based on that advice?
My mind?
The line that seems to be trotted out is that we're all adults, able to make a decision; a choice. Except when we pay to enter a race we have an interesting psychological shift. We have a buy in. In this case (the OMM) we have rather less of a choice once we accept that buy in.
For one we're going "after" a series of check points. Suddenly our choices are rather less. Ah, but we could have simply have not started. Except I've spent £85.00 (any chance of a refund if I decide not to race because it looks a bit hairy?) and an even larger amount in training and getting there. The advice given was stay of the high ground and avoid the rivers. Look at a map and try that and get the checkpoints based on that advice?
In reply to dmhigg: Bet he must be, was gutted for him. Sounded like there was a few teams within a few minutes of each other so it would have been a classic final day. Unfortunately I doubt they'll announce a winner this year.
In reply to dmhigg:
Sorry, reads badly. ("Fellrunning/Honister Slate mine was the winner") Who won? The leader after day one? (giggles mischievously)
> (In reply to IainRUK) Tim was gutted. He was only out for just over 4 hours, and he said the planning was excellent. On a different note, if the organisers call it off, who is the winner?
Sorry, reads badly. ("Fellrunning/Honister Slate mine was the winner") Who won? The leader after day one? (giggles mischievously)
In reply to Fawksey:
http://www.theomm.com/results/2006/omm06resl2.html
was my previous.
Before that Ullswater, before that, Brecon.... you can do the rest.
Once you've sussed the name check the RAB and the SLMM.
http://www.theomm.com/results/2006/omm06resl2.html
was my previous.
Before that Ullswater, before that, Brecon.... you can do the rest.
Once you've sussed the name check the RAB and the SLMM.
In reply to brt: I disagree there. DNFing is an option. I spent over £500 on a race in the alps this year, ran in very hot temps, I overheated and opted to drop out after 70 miles. The money was never really part of my thinking.
I knew that was a risk when I entered. No doubt you know that if you enter an event which covers mountainous terrain in October you have a very real chance of bad weather. However OMM still have to spend money on food, provisions, radios, planning, maps etc, so they still have the outlays, regardless of the fact that the event may not be completed or held at all.
I knew that was a risk when I entered. No doubt you know that if you enter an event which covers mountainous terrain in October you have a very real chance of bad weather. However OMM still have to spend money on food, provisions, radios, planning, maps etc, so they still have the outlays, regardless of the fact that the event may not be completed or held at all.
In reply to brt: The other thing that folk are passing over is that the OMM/KIMM is preserving a tradition...41(?) years without a cancellation (despite some horrendous weather in the past). That's a hell of an albatross around your neck when it comes to Saturday morning and a poor forecast. "Ah, Jen. The one who cancelled the OMM." As I said before, an incredibly brave decision.
In reply to IainRUK:
Of course you can. But they took that option from me when they abandoned the race at lunch time. I guess where I'm going is they should have postponed/cancelled earlier or let it run its course. As yours was.
Of course you can. But they took that option from me when they abandoned the race at lunch time. I guess where I'm going is they should have postponed/cancelled earlier or let it run its course. As yours was.
In reply to brt: all part of the event surely, and there were plenty folks up for the challenge. you weren't and thats that. I assume you're not 14 years old?
In reply to brt: I don't know. If the event HQ was cut off then maybe they had no other option. The fact is noone got seriously hurt. It must have been an incredibly tough decision to make.
In reply to brt: you'll have to dumb it down for me (a lot)
In reply to IainRUK:
Very difficult. The nub of my reasoning is that they must have had a "critical" point at which they said enough is enough. However from all reports those conditions were the same two days previous to the event starting.
Very difficult. The nub of my reasoning is that they must have had a "critical" point at which they said enough is enough. However from all reports those conditions were the same two days previous to the event starting.
In reply to brt: There does seem to have been an unprecedented amount of water in the valley! I think they did well, but communications is going to figure large in next year's risk assessment.
In reply to dmhigg: The OMM management should also draw great comfort from this weekend: whatever happened at base and behind the scenes, the vetting systems, the safety checks, the competitors especially, didn't let them down. What an extraordinary safety record for the weekend.
In reply to brt:
in agreement with all you've said (i was med score, told it was over before finishing)
and questions you've asked. I too question the organisation and the
'emergency planning' they did and why they called it off 4 hours into the race.
We prolly would have retired (my partner was wasted but not really conditions dependent)
IanR i think there was significant pressure to start,many of people choose
to abandon when out there but most/95% (my guess) wouldn't have been on the
hill in the areas without the OMM. Its easy to say you can choose but that fails
to see the bigger picture of the mind set of people. once in the hills,
people begin to act more independently (as they are for 2 days) and
decisively . for example i wouldn't have even bothered going over to the
lakes this w/e if it had not been for the omm
I dont support the media or police comments etc
but *NONE* of it was a surprise to them
- read the sleepmonsters reports about thurs conditions.
BTW i had a blast and was enjoying it, shame my partner suffered but i was going ok if slow.
in agreement with all you've said (i was med score, told it was over before finishing)
and questions you've asked. I too question the organisation and the
'emergency planning' they did and why they called it off 4 hours into the race.
We prolly would have retired (my partner was wasted but not really conditions dependent)
IanR i think there was significant pressure to start,many of people choose
to abandon when out there but most/95% (my guess) wouldn't have been on the
hill in the areas without the OMM. Its easy to say you can choose but that fails
to see the bigger picture of the mind set of people. once in the hills,
people begin to act more independently (as they are for 2 days) and
decisively . for example i wouldn't have even bothered going over to the
lakes this w/e if it had not been for the omm
I dont support the media or police comments etc
but *NONE* of it was a surprise to them
- read the sleepmonsters reports about thurs conditions.
BTW i had a blast and was enjoying it, shame my partner suffered but i was going ok if slow.
In reply to IainRUK:
I absolutely agree.
It's only been a great media event, because somebody made it into one. Most people had a good time, took it in good spirits and made it safely back to camp. The organisers and volunteers did as much as they could.
I don't know what all the fuss is about. It's typical media hype, slow news weekend in combination with a blame culture.
If people sign up for the event they have to accept responsibility for their own actions. If the weather is not acceptable, you turn back.
I absolutely agree.
It's only been a great media event, because somebody made it into one. Most people had a good time, took it in good spirits and made it safely back to camp. The organisers and volunteers did as much as they could.
I don't know what all the fuss is about. It's typical media hype, slow news weekend in combination with a blame culture.
If people sign up for the event they have to accept responsibility for their own actions. If the weather is not acceptable, you turn back.
In reply to lithos:
You do realise they'll burn us at the stake?! Heretic
It was a pity. One of our (team) strengths is a stupid doggedness and good navigation. From what I can gather we were doing well.
You do realise they'll burn us at the stake?! Heretic
It was a pity. One of our (team) strengths is a stupid doggedness and good navigation. From what I can gather we were doing well.
In reply to dmhigg:
I got the impression, I could be wrong, that a woman was swept away crossing a burn and was nearly drowned.
I would urge against complacency, with a little less luck the tone of this thread could have been a lot different.
I agree with brt and the last poster. When you join an organised event the dynamics change. Yes we're all adults but when you're part of a large organised event the organisers have a duty of care to the participants.
> (In reply to dmhigg) What an extraordinary safety record for the weekend.
I got the impression, I could be wrong, that a woman was swept away crossing a burn and was nearly drowned.
I would urge against complacency, with a little less luck the tone of this thread could have been a lot different.
I agree with brt and the last poster. When you join an organised event the dynamics change. Yes we're all adults but when you're part of a large organised event the organisers have a duty of care to the participants.
In reply to lithos and brt:
Shit happens. would you have asked for your money back if they had cancelled before the start? That may have resulted in last years being the last one ever, after the organisers went broke.
How often have you gone away for a weekends climbing and done very little due to conditions, quite a lot if you are average. The organisers were in a cleft stick, let people start and hope the weather did not deteriorate too much or say it was too bad to start and cancel on the day?
I have gone on car rallies that came to a halt in the middle due to deep snow, spent a lot of money getting ready for the RAC international rally and then had it cancelled due to foot and mouth, half the entry fee was returned but the hotels booked and maps and insurance had to be paid for. It is just one of those things, force majeure .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure
Shit happens. would you have asked for your money back if they had cancelled before the start? That may have resulted in last years being the last one ever, after the organisers went broke.
How often have you gone away for a weekends climbing and done very little due to conditions, quite a lot if you are average. The organisers were in a cleft stick, let people start and hope the weather did not deteriorate too much or say it was too bad to start and cancel on the day?
I have gone on car rallies that came to a halt in the middle due to deep snow, spent a lot of money getting ready for the RAC international rally and then had it cancelled due to foot and mouth, half the entry fee was returned but the hotels booked and maps and insurance had to be paid for. It is just one of those things, force majeure .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure
In reply to brt: From the reports I have seen from Sleepmonsters it seems to have been a combination of factors rather than one critical point. Factors including: amount of water at start/finish; increasing risk to competitors from MORE water than expected; stress on MRTs (not just from OMM).
I am sure it must have been frustrating to not get much info but that is hardly surprising given the problems that the OMM team had.
I am sure it must have been frustrating to not get much info but that is hardly surprising given the problems that the OMM team had.
In reply to lithos: Sorry, but I don't agree. With any event you enter outside you can't choose the conditions, so you train for it (in hopefully good weather), but know full well that the weather may be rubbish come the event. You still have the choice (and responsibility) as to whether you decide to start or not.
In reply to MJH:
Bin finkin.
Now if the route had not gone via Honister but over towards Thirlmere, would the media have ever known about it? Has the slate man done all the damage with his hype?
Bin finkin.
Now if the route had not gone via Honister but over towards Thirlmere, would the media have ever known about it? Has the slate man done all the damage with his hype?
In reply to Removed User:
Eric - be very careful with that reasoning, the whole point of MMs is about self-sufficiency. Go down that route of duty of care and you will soon include climbing in that where you have a more experienced and less experienced pair.
> (In reply to Removed Userdmhigg)
> I agree with brt and the last poster. When you join an organised event the dynamics change. Yes we're all adults but when you're part of a large organised event the organisers have a duty of care to the participants.
> I agree with brt and the last poster. When you join an organised event the dynamics change. Yes we're all adults but when you're part of a large organised event the organisers have a duty of care to the participants.
Eric - be very careful with that reasoning, the whole point of MMs is about self-sufficiency. Go down that route of duty of care and you will soon include climbing in that where you have a more experienced and less experienced pair.
In reply to Removed User:
You're absolutely right. One of the reasons (old, lazy etc.) that I don't do the OMM any more is the sheer size of the event: there is a huge range of competitors and abilities. I preferred the days of smaller camp sites, and of pretending (until the last couple of miles) that you were in a smaller race. Under the conditions this weekend, the safety record is remarkable. I agree entirely that I'm hiding behind statistics, but that small number of injuries in such a large event in such weather is extraordinary.
We do also, however, have a duty to the organisers as participants, that our own actions and expectations reflect the best judgements we can possibly make under the circumstances. That decision might be made in a B and B early on Saturday morning, at the start, or two hours into the race. Or even standing on the side of a swollen river. My missus and I lost our race in the Howgills avoiding crossing the "tiny" beck which might have drowned us. But it's a decision I stand by today.
> (In reply to Removed Userdmhigg)
> [...]
>
> I got the impression, I could be wrong, that a woman was swept away crossing a burn and was nearly drowned.
>
> I would urge against complacency, with a little less luck the tone of this thread could have been a lot different.
>
> I agree with brt and the last poster. When you join an organised event the dynamics change. Yes we're all adults but when you're part of a large organised event the organisers have a duty of care to the participants.
> [...]
>
> I got the impression, I could be wrong, that a woman was swept away crossing a burn and was nearly drowned.
>
> I would urge against complacency, with a little less luck the tone of this thread could have been a lot different.
>
> I agree with brt and the last poster. When you join an organised event the dynamics change. Yes we're all adults but when you're part of a large organised event the organisers have a duty of care to the participants.
You're absolutely right. One of the reasons (old, lazy etc.) that I don't do the OMM any more is the sheer size of the event: there is a huge range of competitors and abilities. I preferred the days of smaller camp sites, and of pretending (until the last couple of miles) that you were in a smaller race. Under the conditions this weekend, the safety record is remarkable. I agree entirely that I'm hiding behind statistics, but that small number of injuries in such a large event in such weather is extraordinary.
We do also, however, have a duty to the organisers as participants, that our own actions and expectations reflect the best judgements we can possibly make under the circumstances. That decision might be made in a B and B early on Saturday morning, at the start, or two hours into the race. Or even standing on the side of a swollen river. My missus and I lost our race in the Howgills avoiding crossing the "tiny" beck which might have drowned us. But it's a decision I stand by today.
In reply to MJH:
I'm just home from the event...
To me the biggest problem / issue was the flooding at the HQ car park area. I initially wondered why they had called it off, but the flowing waist-deep water at near the car park explained it all.
For what it's worth, I've had some really worried people phone and text me today due to some pretty poor reporting from the BBC
I'm just home from the event...
To me the biggest problem / issue was the flooding at the HQ car park area. I initially wondered why they had called it off, but the flowing waist-deep water at near the car park explained it all.
For what it's worth, I've had some really worried people phone and text me today due to some pretty poor reporting from the BBC
In reply to sutty: I don't think he has helped, but it would have got out some how.
The media were clearly desperate for voices of condemnation. Still interesting that most of the competitors haven't criticised, just outside sources.
Not that I needed any confirmation, but the mine owner has long been considered a twonk.
The media were clearly desperate for voices of condemnation. Still interesting that most of the competitors haven't criticised, just outside sources.
Not that I needed any confirmation, but the mine owner has long been considered a twonk.
In reply to sutty:
The video clips of folks wading might have done it. Didn't even see Mark Weir (if that's his name..) on the last C4 news. I guess it was a just slow news weekend hence many led with it.
> (In reply to MJH)
[..]> Now if the route had not gone via Honister but over towards Thirlmere, would the media have ever known about it? Has the slate man done all the damage with his hype?
The video clips of folks wading might have done it. Didn't even see Mark Weir (if that's his name..) on the last C4 news. I guess it was a just slow news weekend hence many led with it.
In reply to oui oui:
Me too, the bad news (read 'distorted news') even made it to Germany where it was almost unrecognisable (like lots of competitors had to be housed in make shift shelters whilst other nearly escaped death in the torrents of the Lake District)
My phone has been non-stop since I have got home.
Me too, the bad news (read 'distorted news') even made it to Germany where it was almost unrecognisable (like lots of competitors had to be housed in make shift shelters whilst other nearly escaped death in the torrents of the Lake District)
My phone has been non-stop since I have got home.
In reply to Harry The Owl:
Would you count Queen as 80s? Sounds horribly traumatic. Still, the nightmare is over now. Phew!
> (In reply to Alyson)
> [...]
>
> Hey... Running out of whiskey early is only half the tragedy. As a group consisting of two experienced teams, we also got pretty stuck on finding suitable Qs in our Dunkirk spirit A to Z of 80s pop groups...
> [...]
>
> Hey... Running out of whiskey early is only half the tragedy. As a group consisting of two experienced teams, we also got pretty stuck on finding suitable Qs in our Dunkirk spirit A to Z of 80s pop groups...
Would you count Queen as 80s? Sounds horribly traumatic. Still, the nightmare is over now. Phew!
In reply to oui oui:
Unfortunately it's the nature of the beast: "Hundreds of well-equipped hill experts remain jolly throughout adverse weather" just isn't a headline that'll sell newspapers.
> For what it's worth, I've had some really worried people phone and text me today due to some pretty poor reporting from the BBC
Unfortunately it's the nature of the beast: "Hundreds of well-equipped hill experts remain jolly throughout adverse weather" just isn't a headline that'll sell newspapers.
In reply to sutty:
Errr, did you read the whole article sutty?
"However, force majeure is not intended to excuse negligence or other malfeasance of a party, as where non-performance is caused by the usual and natural consequences of external forces (e.g., predicted rain stops an outdoor event), or where the intervening circumstances are specifically contemplated."
Sorry
Errr, did you read the whole article sutty?
"However, force majeure is not intended to excuse negligence or other malfeasance of a party, as where non-performance is caused by the usual and natural consequences of external forces (e.g., predicted rain stops an outdoor event), or where the intervening circumstances are specifically contemplated."
Sorry
In reply to Niall:
to be charitable they have seen the newsflash about x hundred unaccounted for and by the time they realised the devil is in the detail already reserved the pages.
or to be less charitable as you say it sells.
> Unfortunately it's the nature of the beast: "Hundreds of well-equipped hill experts remain jolly throughout adverse weather" just isn't a headline that'll sell newspapers.
to be charitable they have seen the newsflash about x hundred unaccounted for and by the time they realised the devil is in the detail already reserved the pages.
or to be less charitable as you say it sells.
In reply to indalo: Just heard on the radio: "000's led to safety...". Then an interview with someone saying "We thought we were going over the edge, we just had to press on".
There were three brief comments from people in a negative way, then one guy quickly at the end saying "you expect this kind of thing". Have the BBC have totally got the wrong end of this?
There were three brief comments from people in a negative way, then one guy quickly at the end saying "you expect this kind of thing". Have the BBC have totally got the wrong end of this?
In reply to indalo:
as of 11pm the narrative is "police condemn mountain marathon" and the media have found two women who were "Scared and terrified" by the conditions.
Police claim organisers were asked several days in advance to cancel event.
one woman " I was blown repeatedly off my feet and knocked about"
Organisers to face questioning for refusing to cancel against police advice.
Locally I was told that: emergency services were completely overwhelmed with police drafted in from North Wales (North Wales patrol cars at Sheep and Wool centre). Workington police were verbally very critical of the organisers to me personally. Haven't spoken to folk I know in the mountain rescue services from Cockermouth.
The OMM is finished.
as of 11pm the narrative is "police condemn mountain marathon" and the media have found two women who were "Scared and terrified" by the conditions.
Police claim organisers were asked several days in advance to cancel event.
one woman " I was blown repeatedly off my feet and knocked about"
Organisers to face questioning for refusing to cancel against police advice.
Locally I was told that: emergency services were completely overwhelmed with police drafted in from North Wales (North Wales patrol cars at Sheep and Wool centre). Workington police were verbally very critical of the organisers to me personally. Haven't spoken to folk I know in the mountain rescue services from Cockermouth.
The OMM is finished.
In reply to Simon Overton:
Oh and yes I was on the ground and did have friends who finished in the top ten. They thought the whole thing ws pretty shambolic. No contingency. Nobody in Keswick with access to fax, mobile and internet. Instead HQ was on the "battlefield" with no mobile reception. No, the OMM is over. The local police will never see it back in the Lakes at any rate.
Oh and yes I was on the ground and did have friends who finished in the top ten. They thought the whole thing ws pretty shambolic. No contingency. Nobody in Keswick with access to fax, mobile and internet. Instead HQ was on the "battlefield" with no mobile reception. No, the OMM is over. The local police will never see it back in the Lakes at any rate.
In reply to Simon Overton: Can you be "scared and terrified"? Is that not the same as "running and sprinting"? It sounds as if they did an awful lot of looking before they found those two. I'll read it on my chips at the weekend.
In reply to Simon Overton:
With all due respect to the plods, what do they know about MMs? Possibly as much as they've seen on the over-hyped news (cont pg 94).
With all due respect to the plods, what do they know about MMs? Possibly as much as they've seen on the over-hyped news (cont pg 94).
In reply to Simon Overton:
As you seem friendly with the police, would you tell them that they should close roads when there is the risk of flooding, snow more than an inch deep, black ice, block off the mountain tracks in inclement weather, or.
SHUT THE FECK UP.
As you seem friendly with the police, would you tell them that they should close roads when there is the risk of flooding, snow more than an inch deep, black ice, block off the mountain tracks in inclement weather, or.
SHUT THE FECK UP.
In reply to Simon Overton:
Advice is advice, but AFAIK there's not yet a law against the OMM.
I sincerely hope you're as wrong as you think you're right!
> for refusing to cancel against police advice.
Advice is advice, but AFAIK there's not yet a law against the OMM.
> The OMM is finished.
I sincerely hope you're as wrong as you think you're right!
In reply to Simon Overton: How do they know they're in the top ten? Are there any results up?
In reply to indalo:
Oh well, 12 hypothermia casualties I gather. From what I remember 12 injuries is about normal for the KIMM OMM what with slips, trips and sprains. A few of years ago a couple of poor lassies were quite badly burnt when their tent caught fire, I never heard quite how well they recovered, we were all very concerned.
Mark Weir seems to have done right by the competitors but rather exploited the situation, which is pretty distasteful, "within an inch of turning the fells into a morgue" for goodness sake! Nice of him to help, misguided of him to capitalise.
I think the OMM organisers should probably make some sort of financial and public gesture of thanks to the MR teams that've helped them out, likewise the air-support. It's the done thing where MR are concerned even though most of the teams I've met don't begrudge helping in fine weather, much less unusual conditions like we had this weekend.
Glad everyone seems to be alright.
Oh well, 12 hypothermia casualties I gather. From what I remember 12 injuries is about normal for the KIMM OMM what with slips, trips and sprains. A few of years ago a couple of poor lassies were quite badly burnt when their tent caught fire, I never heard quite how well they recovered, we were all very concerned.
Mark Weir seems to have done right by the competitors but rather exploited the situation, which is pretty distasteful, "within an inch of turning the fells into a morgue" for goodness sake! Nice of him to help, misguided of him to capitalise.
I think the OMM organisers should probably make some sort of financial and public gesture of thanks to the MR teams that've helped them out, likewise the air-support. It's the done thing where MR are concerned even though most of the teams I've met don't begrudge helping in fine weather, much less unusual conditions like we had this weekend.
Glad everyone seems to be alright.
In reply to Simon Overton:
Yes, about the only thing the organisers and participants can do now is have whip-round and at least give some money back to help pay for the cost of this totally unnecessary fiasco, which showed such a deep contempt for the mountains and the weather conditions (their own proclaimed 'expertise' being shown to be so glaringly inept).
Yes, about the only thing the organisers and participants can do now is have whip-round and at least give some money back to help pay for the cost of this totally unnecessary fiasco, which showed such a deep contempt for the mountains and the weather conditions (their own proclaimed 'expertise' being shown to be so glaringly inept).
In reply to Simon Overton: Oh grow up Simon. Your kind of ill-informed speculation helps no one. If you read the Supt comments on the Beeb website it does not say what you are saying.
In reply to Wrongfoot: It will be interesting to find out how many people were actually rescued vs walking off under their own steam.
The Beeb is reporting that most of the casualties have been discharged.
The Beeb is reporting that most of the casualties have been discharged.
In reply to dmhigg: they do tend to win, normally 2nd. Or 3rd. Thank you gordon. Yes, contempt.
In reply to dmhigg:
>I'll read it on my chips at the weekend.
Fair point, the Great British Public will have something else they know little about to pontificate on by Tuesday.
>I'll read it on my chips at the weekend.
Fair point, the Great British Public will have something else they know little about to pontificate on by Tuesday.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
made up statistics
this weekend 200,000 people played rugby
about 0.5% of them will have picked up an injury on the park that required a trip to A&E
that's rather a big bill for the NHS, should they have a whip around?
made up statistics
this weekend 200,000 people played rugby
about 0.5% of them will have picked up an injury on the park that required a trip to A&E
that's rather a big bill for the NHS, should they have a whip around?
In reply to Simon and Gordon et al: Perhaps you might care to read a different report of the event. As of late Saturday night there were 44 pairs unaccounted for not the 1000+ people reported by the media.
http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/racereport.php?page_action=rep&race_id=6...
Personally I think Mike Parsons' comment at the end of the piece sums it up - Beeb: "You mean there was no emergency here?” Mike’s answer was, “No, not really.”
http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/racereport.php?page_action=rep&race_id=6...
Personally I think Mike Parsons' comment at the end of the piece sums it up - Beeb: "You mean there was no emergency here?” Mike’s answer was, “No, not really.”
In reply to indalo: Everybody should remember that NOTHING on TV is real! That's right, not even the news. I was at Lehmans last month, the news reporting was a joke. The press waited ages for someone with a box to leave the building then they all pounced on him. When I was at school some of my friends were 'told' what to say for some news cameras. All this news coverage will do is highlight to more people how poor the media is.
In my limited experience of running small events, you have to rely on reports of people in the feild to decide whether or not to call it a day. I would imagine if the HQ is having problems, seeing people coming down off the hill in numbers and getting bad reports from people on the hill, the decision has got to be pretty simple. If you can't run the HQ then the event has to be called off.
Surely we've all been in similar situations when the weather has been bad and we've have epics on the hill.
In my limited experience of running small events, you have to rely on reports of people in the feild to decide whether or not to call it a day. I would imagine if the HQ is having problems, seeing people coming down off the hill in numbers and getting bad reports from people on the hill, the decision has got to be pretty simple. If you can't run the HQ then the event has to be called off.
Surely we've all been in similar situations when the weather has been bad and we've have epics on the hill.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Gordon. Visit a race. Almost all races donate to MRT's. Fell runners will contribute more than most other sectors.
Of course it's unneccessary. It isn't neccessary to go out into the hills at all.
> (In reply to Simon Overton)
>
> Yes, about the only thing the organisers and participants can do now is have whip-round and at least give some money back to help pay for the cost of this totally unnecessary fiasco, which showed such a deep contempt for the mountains and the weather conditions (their own proclaimed 'expertise' being shown to be so glaringly inept).
>
> Yes, about the only thing the organisers and participants can do now is have whip-round and at least give some money back to help pay for the cost of this totally unnecessary fiasco, which showed such a deep contempt for the mountains and the weather conditions (their own proclaimed 'expertise' being shown to be so glaringly inept).
Gordon. Visit a race. Almost all races donate to MRT's. Fell runners will contribute more than most other sectors.
Of course it's unneccessary. It isn't neccessary to go out into the hills at all.
In reply to indalo: unfortunately the bcc seems to have settled on 'police have criticised . . .'
In reply to IainRUK: Are you sure Gordon was being serious, my initial reading of his post took it to be ironic. Now I'm not so sure - Gordon please confirm - serious or irony?
In reply to rich: i notice how quick the police were to come out and say "we warned them". It seems to me that they did that because the police thought the media were going to blame someone, and it was probably going to be them. But of course not the actions of the 2000 people that could have, at any point decided "this is too bad, i'm quitting".
Perhaps I am naive, but isn't this the way the country is headed (or already there?) where we try to blame "somebody" rather than taking the blame for our own actions?
Perhaps I am naive, but isn't this the way the country is headed (or already there?) where we try to blame "somebody" rather than taking the blame for our own actions?
In reply to Michael Hood: I took as being ironic, given the experience he has.
In reply to no-one in particular: It's interesting that the most balanced bit of reporting I've read was in today's Otago Daily Times, NZ's finest provincial voice (circulation 3 people, some bored penguins, and a small dog) and read along the lines of "bad weather causes lots of well equipped and experienced people minor discomfort at their own volition". Mr Weir got a line but nothing too dramatic.
FFS, to those above if you need the OMM organisers to hold your hand and tell you it will be alright you're doing the wrong sport. Next time I want unsolicited police criticism about something they don't understand I'll ask. If the MRTs are critical - and given half the teams in the land work on about 50% capacity during these events as they're all off competing - then fair game.
I do however agree with those who feel the OMM is getting unwieldy - and have always preferred the LAMM for that very reason - which makes communication more of a challenge, but I'm reminded of the RyanAir spokesman asked to comment on the decompression of one of their planes (which dived rapidly to a safe altitude, and landed safely). An irate passenger said how terrible the communication had been and how they hadn't been told anything other than that they were landing. The RyanAir guy pointed out that the pilots were probably busy flying and using their breathing circuits and perhaps that was the greatest priority. Now I'm no apologist for RyanAir but when I'm using them as an example of reason when all around is hysteria it shows just how bad things are.
Ben B
FFS, to those above if you need the OMM organisers to hold your hand and tell you it will be alright you're doing the wrong sport. Next time I want unsolicited police criticism about something they don't understand I'll ask. If the MRTs are critical - and given half the teams in the land work on about 50% capacity during these events as they're all off competing - then fair game.
I do however agree with those who feel the OMM is getting unwieldy - and have always preferred the LAMM for that very reason - which makes communication more of a challenge, but I'm reminded of the RyanAir spokesman asked to comment on the decompression of one of their planes (which dived rapidly to a safe altitude, and landed safely). An irate passenger said how terrible the communication had been and how they hadn't been told anything other than that they were landing. The RyanAir guy pointed out that the pilots were probably busy flying and using their breathing circuits and perhaps that was the greatest priority. Now I'm no apologist for RyanAir but when I'm using them as an example of reason when all around is hysteria it shows just how bad things are.
Ben B
In reply to brt:
The BBC website said it was called off because 'MR were overwhelmed'. It has since been reported (again going off BBC site) that both the police and MR asked for it not to go ahead in the first place.
The BBC website said it was called off because 'MR were overwhelmed'. It has since been reported (again going off BBC site) that both the police and MR asked for it not to go ahead in the first place.
In reply to dmhigg:
That's the thing that's struck me, (cosy in armchair), coming through loud and clear between the lines of news, despite Mr Slate Mine's hype. What a lot of people getting themselves safely through appalling conditions! I think it speaks volumes about how knowledge, preparation and the right gear can keep people safe in the hills.
No comment as to whether they should've cancelled before/not cancelled etc, that's a debate for people who were there.
> Under the conditions this weekend, the safety record is remarkable.
That's the thing that's struck me, (cosy in armchair), coming through loud and clear between the lines of news, despite Mr Slate Mine's hype. What a lot of people getting themselves safely through appalling conditions! I think it speaks volumes about how knowledge, preparation and the right gear can keep people safe in the hills.
No comment as to whether they should've cancelled before/not cancelled etc, that's a debate for people who were there.
In reply to gingerkate: I think that the BBC coverage got progressively better through the day as they worked out what they were talking about. Not even the BBC is going to have a "fell running correspondent" who can swoop in a give and expert and nuanced view of the situation, so local stringers get sent out with no idea what it is that they are really reporting on. 1,700 or whatever it was "unaccounted for" sounds really bad if you take a worst case scenario not knowing there is likely to be a best. People have quite unrealistic expectations of the media, particularly in the short term, expertise just isn't available on everything.
The report on the BBC now http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/cumbria/7691893.stm is much more balanced. The police boss say Mr. Slate Mine is exaggerating, but clearly thinks life would have been easier if the race hadn't gone ahead. That's fair enough, but he doesn't criticise that much because he knows the event was legal and well organized and therefore the police are obliged to help out as much as if a school trip bus went off the road in bad weather.
The report on the BBC now http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/cumbria/7691893.stm is much more balanced. The police boss say Mr. Slate Mine is exaggerating, but clearly thinks life would have been easier if the race hadn't gone ahead. That's fair enough, but he doesn't criticise that much because he knows the event was legal and well organized and therefore the police are obliged to help out as much as if a school trip bus went off the road in bad weather.
In reply to simoniphone:
From what I've heard, the top elite teams seem to have been surprised that it was called off, since most were in the half way camp by lunch time.
> (In reply to dmhigg) they do tend to win, normally 2nd. Or 3rd.
From what I've heard, the top elite teams seem to have been surprised that it was called off, since most were in the half way camp by lunch time.
In reply to indalo:
BBC Breakfast just had a competitor, Steven Collier - a barrister (Sloper?) on to discuss the OMM. They were desperate for him to condmen the organization and event - Bill Turnbull tried to get him to be negative and critical and failed miserably.
BBC Breakfast just had a competitor, Steven Collier - a barrister (Sloper?) on to discuss the OMM. They were desperate for him to condmen the organization and event - Bill Turnbull tried to get him to be negative and critical and failed miserably.
In reply to Simon Overton:
So what? It's not as if the Lakes are the only place they can run the OMM. I'd imagine the local BnB business might have something to say if the police do something as daft and kneejerk as you suggest.
> No, the OMM is over. The local police will never see it back in the Lakes at any rate.
So what? It's not as if the Lakes are the only place they can run the OMM. I'd imagine the local BnB business might have something to say if the police do something as daft and kneejerk as you suggest.
In reply to indalo:
I wouldn't go a whole bundle on what the police say. I've lost all respect for their reaction to these sorts of things since this year's Bulldog Bash, where it was clear that the police had thrown their toys out of the pram and were determined to piss off local people by making movement around Warwickshire a nightmare. Why would they do this? Because they wanted the event banned and needed to try and create some public support for their own position. Less charitably, they were pissed off that it went ahead and decided that they'd damn well take it out on the people who voted for the local council. I fear something similar is happening here in an attempt to make sure that they don't have to go out in the cold and rain in future.
I wouldn't go a whole bundle on what the police say. I've lost all respect for their reaction to these sorts of things since this year's Bulldog Bash, where it was clear that the police had thrown their toys out of the pram and were determined to piss off local people by making movement around Warwickshire a nightmare. Why would they do this? Because they wanted the event banned and needed to try and create some public support for their own position. Less charitably, they were pissed off that it went ahead and decided that they'd damn well take it out on the people who voted for the local council. I fear something similar is happening here in an attempt to make sure that they don't have to go out in the cold and rain in future.
In reply to Simon Overton:
BTW, are you the Simon Overton who collapsed in the Tien Shan? If so, what's your feeling about people with neurological conditions going off to remote mountain ranges? My personal feeling is that it's their own risk,they know what they're doing and good luck to them. What's yours?
BTW, are you the Simon Overton who collapsed in the Tien Shan? If so, what's your feeling about people with neurological conditions going off to remote mountain ranges? My personal feeling is that it's their own risk,they know what they're doing and good luck to them. What's yours?
In reply to brt:
I've just come across the source of the 'Mountain Rescue overwhelmed' quote. It's a section of video, that you can see here:
http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/racereport.php?page_action=rep&race_id=6...
I've just come across the source of the 'Mountain Rescue overwhelmed' quote. It's a section of video, that you can see here:
http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/racereport.php?page_action=rep&race_id=6...
In reply to gingerkate:
Excellent summary!
> (In reply to dmhigg)
> [...]
>
> That's the thing that's struck me, (cosy in armchair), coming through loud and clear between the lines of news, despite Mr Slate Mine's hype. What a lot of people getting themselves safely through appalling conditions! I think it speaks volumes about how knowledge, preparation and the right gear can keep people safe in the hills.
>
> [...]
>
> That's the thing that's struck me, (cosy in armchair), coming through loud and clear between the lines of news, despite Mr Slate Mine's hype. What a lot of people getting themselves safely through appalling conditions! I think it speaks volumes about how knowledge, preparation and the right gear can keep people safe in the hills.
>
Excellent summary!
I think Mr. Honister Via Ferratai should be billed by OMM for this wonderful marketing opportunity!
And what's with this "Mountain Center" he's on about? To be located at Honister Slate Mines no doubt.
Jeez - so American to make a marketing/business opportunity out of this!
What has happened to the UK - stiff upper lip and all that?
In reply to TobyA:
I've just thought ... the press don't just arrive en masse to report a (non) story ... someone must've called them in.
Anyone happen to know who?
I know who my money would be on!
I've just thought ... the press don't just arrive en masse to report a (non) story ... someone must've called them in.
Anyone happen to know who?
I know who my money would be on!
In reply to Michael Hood:
wouldn't it be a pity if one's (possibly) trolling, ironic insider in-joke was used in an article in a national (even internationl) newspaper like so
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/article5019756.ece
A fierce debate is being pursued on the event’s website . . . One contributor was “appalled and dumbfounded” that it had taken place. “I sincerely hope the organisers are held to account for making such an irresponsible decision in continuing with the race,” he said.
> (In reply to IainRUK) Are you sure Gordon was being serious, my initial reading of his post took it to be ironic. Now I'm not so sure - Gordon please confirm - serious or irony?
wouldn't it be a pity if one's (possibly) trolling, ironic insider in-joke was used in an article in a national (even internationl) newspaper like so
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/article5019756.ece
A fierce debate is being pursued on the event’s website . . . One contributor was “appalled and dumbfounded” that it had taken place. “I sincerely hope the organisers are held to account for making such an irresponsible decision in continuing with the race,” he said.
In reply to indalo: I was ambivalent about this yesterday, as it was hard to get a clear picture of what was going on... but it now seems like the emergency that never was.
In reply to indalo:
No doubt more OMM T-shirts and car stickers and will be sold from this year than there were competitors ......... be like Stone Roses at Spike Island or the gig when someone shouted Judas at Bob Dylan ......
"I was there I was there" they'll all want to shout!!!
No doubt more OMM T-shirts and car stickers and will be sold from this year than there were competitors ......... be like Stone Roses at Spike Island or the gig when someone shouted Judas at Bob Dylan ......
"I was there I was there" they'll all want to shout!!!
In reply to indalo:
I think it was reported that in the end 13 people needed "treatment" including mild hypothermia, and cuts and bruises. It didn't specify a breakdown of the injuries, nor what "needed treatment" meant. Maybe putting sticking plaster on a grazed knee qualified?
I would be not suprised if even in excellent weather a dozen or so competitors out of that number would suffer some minor cuts and grazes needing "treatment".
What utter hype.
I think it was reported that in the end 13 people needed "treatment" including mild hypothermia, and cuts and bruises. It didn't specify a breakdown of the injuries, nor what "needed treatment" meant. Maybe putting sticking plaster on a grazed knee qualified?
I would be not suprised if even in excellent weather a dozen or so competitors out of that number would suffer some minor cuts and grazes needing "treatment".
What utter hype.
In reply to Trangia:
Why should we expect the media to allow truth and facts to get in the way of a good story? Was it me or did the media in general seem 'dissapointed' that no one died! From the initail reports on Saturday, they managed to build themselves up into a frenzy of expectation of bodies littering the mountains!
I expect they a bit hacked off that the story didn't pan out the way they expected.
Why should we expect the media to allow truth and facts to get in the way of a good story? Was it me or did the media in general seem 'dissapointed' that no one died! From the initail reports on Saturday, they managed to build themselves up into a frenzy of expectation of bodies littering the mountains!
I expect they a bit hacked off that the story didn't pan out the way they expected.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
As someone said on 'sleepmonsters' - self-reliance is no longer a popular concept in Britain. Not even on 'the premier UK climbing & mountaineering website'.
> What has happened to the UK - stiff upper lip and all that?
As someone said on 'sleepmonsters' - self-reliance is no longer a popular concept in Britain. Not even on 'the premier UK climbing & mountaineering website'.
In reply to 'Hilda':
I had experience of this a couple of months ago. The British press (so-called "quality" papers too) either failed to verify, or fabricated wholesale, an incident I was involved in.
> Why should we expect the media to allow truth and facts to get in the way of a good story?
I had experience of this a couple of months ago. The British press (so-called "quality" papers too) either failed to verify, or fabricated wholesale, an incident I was involved in.
In reply to rich: Sensible piece in the Times from Simon Barnes on the same page as the main article. Also includes that lengthy "morgue" quote from that tit from the mines.
Did you notice there's a feedback form on his website?
Did you notice there's a feedback form on his website?
In reply to andy:
I might have a read of that. Simon Barnes is one of the most thoughtful journalists around.
> (In reply to rich) Sensible piece in the Times from Simon Barnes on the same page as the main article.
I might have a read of that. Simon Barnes is one of the most thoughtful journalists around.
In reply to 'Hilda': The Beeb made it look pretty horrific this morning. Anyone actually do it on here?
In reply to MJH:
yep and the choice to retire at any point but im not involved in the decision to cancel.
But if you believe that there is no 'pressure' involved then we shall have
to agree to disagree. I wonder how many people start a marathon cos they
have invested heavily in it (training, sponsoship, kit, mental
preparation, expectation, hopes ...) when they shouldn't or only to retire injured.
That's what i am getting at. I am not saying it comes from the OMM organisers but from within.
> (In reply to lithos) Sorry, but I don't agree. ....
>You still have the choice (and responsibility) as to whether you decide to start or not.yep and the choice to retire at any point but im not involved in the decision to cancel.
But if you believe that there is no 'pressure' involved then we shall have
to agree to disagree. I wonder how many people start a marathon cos they
have invested heavily in it (training, sponsoship, kit, mental
preparation, expectation, hopes ...) when they shouldn't or only to retire injured.
That's what i am getting at. I am not saying it comes from the OMM organisers but from within.
In reply to sutty:
I'm kinda uneasy on the subject of the police telling the organisers of the OMM that it shouldn't go ahead. Yes, all the competitors were capable of looking after themselves. However, the emergency services in Cumbria had enough on their plate (roads flooded, Cockermouth flooded, etc.) without having to worry about 2000 fell runners indulging in their hobby. Perhaps the organisers should have thought about the responsibilities of the emergency services to the inhabitants of Cumbria before they took the decision to continue the race.
I'm kinda uneasy on the subject of the police telling the organisers of the OMM that it shouldn't go ahead. Yes, all the competitors were capable of looking after themselves. However, the emergency services in Cumbria had enough on their plate (roads flooded, Cockermouth flooded, etc.) without having to worry about 2000 fell runners indulging in their hobby. Perhaps the organisers should have thought about the responsibilities of the emergency services to the inhabitants of Cumbria before they took the decision to continue the race.
In reply to alessandro di guglielmo:
no - thin end of the wedge
should shopping centres have closed for the same reason?
cinemas?
football matches?
>
> Perhaps the organisers should have thought about the responsibilities of the emergency services to the inhabitants of Cumbria before they took the decision to continue the race.
> Perhaps the organisers should have thought about the responsibilities of the emergency services to the inhabitants of Cumbria before they took the decision to continue the race.
no - thin end of the wedge
should shopping centres have closed for the same reason?
cinemas?
football matches?
In reply to Simon Overton:
0/10
In reply to others:
Anyone with a greater understanding about such things think there are grounds for a complaint to the press complaints commission about irresponsible reporting by media organisations?
On the grounds of cost etc surely the weekly cost(to the public purse) of policing football matches is a far greater than for this weekend in the Lakes?
0/10
In reply to others:
Anyone with a greater understanding about such things think there are grounds for a complaint to the press complaints commission about irresponsible reporting by media organisations?
On the grounds of cost etc surely the weekly cost(to the public purse) of policing football matches is a far greater than for this weekend in the Lakes?
In reply to alessandro di guglielmo: Part of the problem (understatement alert) is that on this, as on most other relevant forums, the discussion is between runners/defenders of the event, who seem to have a handle on what is/was going on, and those dependant on Meedja reports (MRT overstretched, thousands unaccounted for, helicopters searching, police warning organisers etc). How much of this reporting is in any way factually correct? Were the MRT massively involved? How many helicopters? What part did the police play in proceedings? Until a decent factual report is published sensible discussion of organisation is difficult. The organisers might have been unaware of the emergency around them: that might well have been because there wasn't one.
In reply to lithos: Do you feel the same pressure to climb if say you have gone to the Alps and spent months preparing physically and financially - I hope not.
Why people can't take responsibility for themselves is beyond me - and yes, I have made the difficult decision to bin a MM (half way through and despite doing quite well).
Why people can't take responsibility for themselves is beyond me - and yes, I have made the difficult decision to bin a MM (half way through and despite doing quite well).
In reply to dmhigg:
I agree - I think this is a crucial point.
> (In reply to alessandro di guglielmo) Part of the problem (understatement alert) is that on this, as on most other relevant forums, the discussion is between runners/defenders of the event, who seem to have a handle on what is/was going on, and those dependant on Meedja reports (MRT overstretched, thousands unaccounted for, helicopters searching, police warning organisers etc). How much of this reporting is in any way factually correct? Were the MRT massively involved?
I agree - I think this is a crucial point.
In reply to MJH:
If this weekend was like any other weekend, then there will have been about 200 deaths due to road traffic incidents - most of them aren't "accidents", because most are caused by neglect.
How much media attention did this get?
I suspect the people who make the sensationalist news stories have their own cars.
If this weekend was typical, there were more deaths due to alcohol and tobacco than deaths caused by illegal drugs. More by a couple of orders of magnitude.
Yet where is the outrage about all these avoidable deaths due to alcohol?
I suspect the people deciding what goes in the headlines also enjoy a drink or three.
If this weekend was like any other weekend, then there will have been about 200 deaths due to road traffic incidents - most of them aren't "accidents", because most are caused by neglect.
How much media attention did this get?
I suspect the people who make the sensationalist news stories have their own cars.
If this weekend was typical, there were more deaths due to alcohol and tobacco than deaths caused by illegal drugs. More by a couple of orders of magnitude.
Yet where is the outrage about all these avoidable deaths due to alcohol?
I suspect the people deciding what goes in the headlines also enjoy a drink or three.
In reply to indalo: How does the OMM compare to the Allendale Challenge? I do that one in some pretty horrendous conditions that look akin to the OMM footage I've seen. I'm assuming the OMM is harder despite the weather?
In reply to indalo:
In response to the people having a go at the Police.
Someone mentioned that cops on the ground were critical of the organisers. Hadi been dragged out of bed/offduty or been made to get out of my nice warm car and get soaking wet and cold i would have had a grumble too.
The public statements by the Police seem to fall short of outright criticism. The BBC radio clip of a Superintendent didn't even have him saying they thought it was the wrong decision. He spoke about them being well equipped and experienced mountaineers from all over the country.
A small force like Cumbria ( 2nd biggest geographically + 2nd smallest staff wise ) will struggle to help out on a scale like this. Especially on the first weekend of 1/2 term and the flooding that was going on elsewhere. That and the fact it was Saturday night so you've still got the usual policing to do.But they ( and all the other services too ) did it.
It's no surprise that they were not too keen on it going ahead. Do you know why ? It will have cost them ( for that read us ) a fortune in overtime payments, kit and time.
That combined with the general incomprehension of most people to follow why 2500 people wanted to do such a crazy thing will have a negative effect i feel.
In response to the people having a go at the Police.
Someone mentioned that cops on the ground were critical of the organisers. Hadi been dragged out of bed/offduty or been made to get out of my nice warm car and get soaking wet and cold i would have had a grumble too.
The public statements by the Police seem to fall short of outright criticism. The BBC radio clip of a Superintendent didn't even have him saying they thought it was the wrong decision. He spoke about them being well equipped and experienced mountaineers from all over the country.
A small force like Cumbria ( 2nd biggest geographically + 2nd smallest staff wise ) will struggle to help out on a scale like this. Especially on the first weekend of 1/2 term and the flooding that was going on elsewhere. That and the fact it was Saturday night so you've still got the usual policing to do.But they ( and all the other services too ) did it.
It's no surprise that they were not too keen on it going ahead. Do you know why ? It will have cost them ( for that read us ) a fortune in overtime payments, kit and time.
That combined with the general incomprehension of most people to follow why 2500 people wanted to do such a crazy thing will have a negative effect i feel.
In reply to lithos: Any Lithos, understand what you are saying. I understand there is pressure, and it wouldn't have been an easy call to make. I just think the stick thrown at the OMM organisers is unfair. They had a go, didn't work out, but noone died. I've and many debates about dropping out of events since my DNF in the alps this year, I honestly felt embarrassed, but people are right when sometimes it takes more balls to say enough is enough, than ploughing on and risking your life. The main thing that I think should come out of this is the size of the OMM, almost everyone I've spoken to has said it's too big, and that is where the dangers/issues lie.
Anyway this next bit is a reply to the thread, not to you
There's a quote in a paper this morning by a Tony Johnson. 'I don't think it should have gone ahead. We just went along with it because we thought the organisers knew what they were doing'.
I've now changed my mind. If that's the sort of person who does the OMM then it should be a smaller event, over safer terrain, in summer, in good weather. The OMM, like the long fell races, is about total self reliance. I hope he's aproproately ridiculed by his running companions.
It's a scary view. One that I honestly did not think people who entered the OMM had. Total passing responsibility onto the organisers.
What has annoyed me is this attitude of runners gets rescued, his fault for taking risks, therefore he should pay for rescue. Smokers, drinkers, overweight people aren't charged for heart attacks and other health conditions. So why should outdoors folk be charged. People moan about a sedentary lifestyle. We have this cracking environment in the UK, people should get out and enjoy it, be challenged. Ok occassionally they may get in trouble, some may have to be rescued. But I'd rather that than have an obese sedentary population. Touch wood, I've not required an MRT yet, but we've had a few serious injuries in our time running and climbing from puncture wounds, torn ligaments, broken bones but we've always got ourselves off the hill, but I'd rather be pushing the boundaries of what's possible for me than staying at home and sniping away which seems to be a UK past time at the moment.
Anyway this next bit is a reply to the thread, not to you
There's a quote in a paper this morning by a Tony Johnson. 'I don't think it should have gone ahead. We just went along with it because we thought the organisers knew what they were doing'.
I've now changed my mind. If that's the sort of person who does the OMM then it should be a smaller event, over safer terrain, in summer, in good weather. The OMM, like the long fell races, is about total self reliance. I hope he's aproproately ridiculed by his running companions.
It's a scary view. One that I honestly did not think people who entered the OMM had. Total passing responsibility onto the organisers.
What has annoyed me is this attitude of runners gets rescued, his fault for taking risks, therefore he should pay for rescue. Smokers, drinkers, overweight people aren't charged for heart attacks and other health conditions. So why should outdoors folk be charged. People moan about a sedentary lifestyle. We have this cracking environment in the UK, people should get out and enjoy it, be challenged. Ok occassionally they may get in trouble, some may have to be rescued. But I'd rather that than have an obese sedentary population. Touch wood, I've not required an MRT yet, but we've had a few serious injuries in our time running and climbing from puncture wounds, torn ligaments, broken bones but we've always got ourselves off the hill, but I'd rather be pushing the boundaries of what's possible for me than staying at home and sniping away which seems to be a UK past time at the moment.
In reply to MJH:
nope - not quite the same though is it
hmm im bored of this already - you win the ping pong
> (In reply to lithos) Do you feel the same pressure to climb if say you have gone to the Alps and spent months preparing physically and financially - I hope not.
nope - not quite the same though is it
> Why people can't take responsibility for themselves is beyond me - and yes, I have made the difficult decision to bin a MM (half way through and despite doing quite well).
hmm im bored of this already - you win the ping pong
In reply to IainRUK:
plonker.
its very celar in the OMM literature etc about responsibility lying with the team and self sufficiency
I tool think its too big - but the LAMM 'aint exactly small ! the advantage of bigger events is there will be people worse than use, very small and we'll be out of our league
>
> Anyway this next bit is a reply to the thread, not to you
> Anyway this next bit is a reply to the thread, not to you
> There's a quote in a paper this morning by a Tony Johnson. 'I don't think it should have gone ahead. We just went along with it because we thought the organisers knew what they were doing'.
plonker.
> It's a scary view. One that I honestly did not think people who entered the OMM had. Total passing responsibility onto the organisers.
its very celar in the OMM literature etc about responsibility lying with the team and self sufficiency
I tool think its too big - but the LAMM 'aint exactly small ! the advantage of bigger events is there will be people worse than use, very small and we'll be out of our league
I've never done a Mountain Marathon, though I quite fancy it, (my navigation and general backpacking experience would have to be quite a lot better than it is now). Can I ask a couple of questions?
1) How exactly do they check that entrants have the relevant experience?
2) Under normal circumstances, is there some sort of check at the overnight campsite that everyone is accounted for?
I don't have an agenda with these questions, just curious.
1) How exactly do they check that entrants have the relevant experience?
2) Under normal circumstances, is there some sort of check at the overnight campsite that everyone is accounted for?
I don't have an agenda with these questions, just curious.
In reply to fimm:
1) most events ask you to state previous experience (not necessarily limited to mtn marathons)
2) events use electronic timing chips with the final check point being when you arrive at the overnight camp. The difficulties occur when people don't finish the day and don't tell the organisers (this happens alot).
1) most events ask you to state previous experience (not necessarily limited to mtn marathons)
2) events use electronic timing chips with the final check point being when you arrive at the overnight camp. The difficulties occur when people don't finish the day and don't tell the organisers (this happens alot).
In reply to fimm:
1) You list your experience. AL's completed (AL is a category of fell race, L = long, A = so many feet / mile), or MM's and other experience.
2) yes, now with the timing chips you know where all the teams are, especially on the 'race' sections of the OMM. The score event is a more of a logistical nightmare.
> I've never done a Mountain Marathon, though I quite fancy it, (my navigation and general backpacking experience would have to be quite a lot better than it is now). Can I ask a couple of questions?
>
> 1) How exactly do they check that entrants have the relevant experience?
> 2) Under normal circumstances, is there some sort of check at the overnight campsite that everyone is accounted for?
>
> I don't have an agenda with these questions, just curious.
>
> 1) How exactly do they check that entrants have the relevant experience?
> 2) Under normal circumstances, is there some sort of check at the overnight campsite that everyone is accounted for?
>
> I don't have an agenda with these questions, just curious.
1) You list your experience. AL's completed (AL is a category of fell race, L = long, A = so many feet / mile), or MM's and other experience.
2) yes, now with the timing chips you know where all the teams are, especially on the 'race' sections of the OMM. The score event is a more of a logistical nightmare.
For what it’s worth, my take on what I saw this weekend:
Despite fairly challenging conditions on the hills, I didn’t see anyone struggling to get off the mountain and needing ‘rescuing’ by the emergency services.
At no point did I see anyone, let alone hundreds of people being led to safety by the Police or MRT anywhere.
The sheets with people’s names at the HQ was a sea of blue highlighter marks of people accounted for, with literally one or two names per sheet not highlighted off (where did that figure of 1400 people unaccounted for come from??)
I didn’t meet or hear anyone scared or traumatised by what had happened.
Everyone seemed in good spirits under the circumstances
Other than flood damage to some peoples cars on a section road near the HQ and the cars at the HQ being unable get out, this was a complete non-story. There was no mass-rescue by the emergency services.
Despite fairly challenging conditions on the hills, I didn’t see anyone struggling to get off the mountain and needing ‘rescuing’ by the emergency services.
At no point did I see anyone, let alone hundreds of people being led to safety by the Police or MRT anywhere.
The sheets with people’s names at the HQ was a sea of blue highlighter marks of people accounted for, with literally one or two names per sheet not highlighted off (where did that figure of 1400 people unaccounted for come from??)
I didn’t meet or hear anyone scared or traumatised by what had happened.
Everyone seemed in good spirits under the circumstances
Other than flood damage to some peoples cars on a section road near the HQ and the cars at the HQ being unable get out, this was a complete non-story. There was no mass-rescue by the emergency services.
In reply to oui oui: yeh
from my chair here it seems that the (perceived) problems were 'caused' by the logistics of recovering the situation after the cancellation - if the race had carried on the people 'taking shelter' would still have been participants - once the event was cancelled they strangely became either trapped or retreating victims - odd
from my chair here it seems that the (perceived) problems were 'caused' by the logistics of recovering the situation after the cancellation - if the race had carried on the people 'taking shelter' would still have been participants - once the event was cancelled they strangely became either trapped or retreating victims - odd
In reply to fimm:
I have not done a MM, but talking to those that have, I think the following is true. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong.
1) How exactly do they check that entrants have the relevant experience?
The application form asks for prior experience of events entered and times/placings. Kit is subject to random inspection.
2) Under normal circumstances, is there some sort of check at the overnight campsite that everyone is accounted for?
I think they use the Smartident digital tagging system and this reports which control points have been visited. Competitors will also dib their tags at the o/n campsite. I have used the system on other events and it is a fast and efficient system.
I have not done a MM, but talking to those that have, I think the following is true. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong.
1) How exactly do they check that entrants have the relevant experience?
The application form asks for prior experience of events entered and times/placings. Kit is subject to random inspection.
2) Under normal circumstances, is there some sort of check at the overnight campsite that everyone is accounted for?
I think they use the Smartident digital tagging system and this reports which control points have been visited. Competitors will also dib their tags at the o/n campsite. I have used the system on other events and it is a fast and efficient system.
Mark Weir, what a tw*t. In today's Metro (of course, well known for its accurate, timely and balanced reporting. Sometimes they even sneak some news in for a laugh!):
"'... were close to turning the hills into a morgue', said rescuer and mine owner Mark Weir." I did chuckle. What a nobber.
"'... were close to turning the hills into a morgue', said rescuer and mine owner Mark Weir." I did chuckle. What a nobber.
In reply to indalo:
Maybe the greatest failure was the events PR team didn't respond quick enough with a press release to all the major news outlets explaining the nature of the event and the actual situation on the ground. Surely the organisers knew the communication difficulties in the area and could have gathered relevant info into a press package and nipped the ridiculous publicity in the bud.
Have UKC received a press release from anyone connected to the event?
Maybe the greatest failure was the events PR team didn't respond quick enough with a press release to all the major news outlets explaining the nature of the event and the actual situation on the ground. Surely the organisers knew the communication difficulties in the area and could have gathered relevant info into a press package and nipped the ridiculous publicity in the bud.
Have UKC received a press release from anyone connected to the event?
In reply to James Jackson:
Ah, here it is:
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?Flood-hit_peaks_could_have_become_...
'We have come within inches of turning the Lake District mountains into a morgue. We need to learn from it,' said rescuer and slate mine owner Mark Weir.
Ah, here it is:
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?Flood-hit_peaks_could_have_become_...
'We have come within inches of turning the Lake District mountains into a morgue. We need to learn from it,' said rescuer and slate mine owner Mark Weir.
In reply to Henry Iddon:
Once the press attention kicked off, and the organisers realised how the event was being reported (and that could certainly not have been predicted), no news release would have halted the juggernaut. Sounds like the organisers did everything they could in terms of presenting a sensible message. Unfortunately, once a 'major story' label is stuck on something, the genie is out of the bottle, and whoever shouts loudest gets the column inches.
> (In reply to indalo)
>
> Maybe the greatest failure was the events PR team didn't respond quick enough with a press release to all the major news outlets explaining the nature of the event and the actual situation on the ground. Surely the organisers knew the communication difficulties in the area and could have gathered relevant info into a press package and nipped the ridiculous publicity in the bud.
>
> Have UKC received a press release from anyone connected to the event?
>
> Maybe the greatest failure was the events PR team didn't respond quick enough with a press release to all the major news outlets explaining the nature of the event and the actual situation on the ground. Surely the organisers knew the communication difficulties in the area and could have gathered relevant info into a press package and nipped the ridiculous publicity in the bud.
>
> Have UKC received a press release from anyone connected to the event?
Once the press attention kicked off, and the organisers realised how the event was being reported (and that could certainly not have been predicted), no news release would have halted the juggernaut. Sounds like the organisers did everything they could in terms of presenting a sensible message. Unfortunately, once a 'major story' label is stuck on something, the genie is out of the bottle, and whoever shouts loudest gets the column inches.
In reply to IainRUK:
With more than a passing knowledge of the sport-ident system you know where and when competitors have been and that is only once you download the swipe box onto a laptop.
> 2) yes, now with the timing chips you know where all the teams are, especially on the 'race' sections of the OMM.
With more than a passing knowledge of the sport-ident system you know where and when competitors have been and that is only once you download the swipe box onto a laptop.
In reply to lithos:
I'd be interested to see what any of the legal types on here make of OMMs statements about responsibility and self sufficiency - do they actually have any legal basis?
I'm guessing that that they do have a duty of care as people have paid and OMM probably need to carryout a full formal risk assesment, have a crisis management system in place and insurance to cover potential claims.
An organised event that you pay for is different to us bimbling off into the boonies to throw ourselves off crags.
I'd be interested to see what any of the legal types on here make of OMMs statements about responsibility and self sufficiency - do they actually have any legal basis?
I'm guessing that that they do have a duty of care as people have paid and OMM probably need to carryout a full formal risk assesment, have a crisis management system in place and insurance to cover potential claims.
An organised event that you pay for is different to us bimbling off into the boonies to throw ourselves off crags.
this is more like the reporting we want to see
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/running-stupid-20081027...
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/running-stupid-20081027...
We saw the weather forecast was s***e. We decided not to go, as we felt a bit crap already. It would have pissed me off if someone else had made that decision for me, as I am a grown up and like to decide things for myself.
From what I can see everyone who _decided_ to set off did a marvellous job of surviving, which is kind of the point of the event, whether or not the media decide to intervene and judge it. On a LAMM I did a few years back people were in hospital with head injuries, 'minor injuries' (who doesnt have a minor injury after doing loads of MMs?) and hypothermia. Not that that is a good thing, but it's not actually that unusual.
Please stop this ill-thought-out chat about banning things and letting the police decide which (legal) things are allowed to happen. MR teams exclusively deal with people who have decided to go out on the hills of their own accord and get into trouble. That is (I assume) partly why they are not funded by the taxpayer. I will be making a donation here as a result... (how many people were actually evacuated? Does anyone know?)
http://www.justgiving.com/theomm08-mrtdonation
'Inches from a morgue'? What a tw*t...
From what I can see everyone who _decided_ to set off did a marvellous job of surviving, which is kind of the point of the event, whether or not the media decide to intervene and judge it. On a LAMM I did a few years back people were in hospital with head injuries, 'minor injuries' (who doesnt have a minor injury after doing loads of MMs?) and hypothermia. Not that that is a good thing, but it's not actually that unusual.
Please stop this ill-thought-out chat about banning things and letting the police decide which (legal) things are allowed to happen. MR teams exclusively deal with people who have decided to go out on the hills of their own accord and get into trouble. That is (I assume) partly why they are not funded by the taxpayer. I will be making a donation here as a result... (how many people were actually evacuated? Does anyone know?)
http://www.justgiving.com/theomm08-mrtdonation
'Inches from a morgue'? What a tw*t...
In reply to Martin76:
Fair comment, maybe they should have got hold of a megaphone then and drowned out the clown from the slate mine!!!
Fair comment, maybe they should have got hold of a megaphone then and drowned out the clown from the slate mine!!!
In reply to James Jackson: I love the Metro. "2500 people now" and the fact they just say "one blogger said 'When the total cost of this fiasco is added up, I wonder if the bill for the efforts of all agencies involved will be sent to the organisers?" "
What fiasco? I would love to know where they got that!
What fiasco? I would love to know where they got that!
In reply to indalo: http://www.honister-slate-mine.co.uk/
Scroll down and read the statement. Was it really that bad?
Scroll down and read the statement. Was it really that bad?
In reply to biscuit:
In the light of what happened hours before the race in the Honister area one does wonder whether it should have been reconsidered.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7688737.stm
That was a pretty clear indication of the conditions threatening travellers at that time and perhaps the fact that MrHonister was involved in that rescue might have coloured his comments on the later event.
I think there is an issue, not with people taking responsibility for their own safety in the hills, but with allowing an event to start when it is pretty obvious there will be a major call on rescue resources when the county may need them elsewhere
In the light of what happened hours before the race in the Honister area one does wonder whether it should have been reconsidered.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7688737.stm
That was a pretty clear indication of the conditions threatening travellers at that time and perhaps the fact that MrHonister was involved in that rescue might have coloured his comments on the later event.
I think there is an issue, not with people taking responsibility for their own safety in the hills, but with allowing an event to start when it is pretty obvious there will be a major call on rescue resources when the county may need them elsewhere
In reply to James Jackson:
Mark Weir worked solidly to assist Police and rescue workers with the "evacuation" of runners from Honister. He was efficient and organised. The organisers were not.
Very few people posting on this forum have had any regard for local opinion.
Also I do think the organisers should have had some PR machine- office space in Keswick in KEadventure for example with free promotion of KE (just a thought). I cite below list of people who are not happy
1) North Wales police- for having to come through to Cumbria
2) All the mountain rescue teams including a friend of ours who oh so enjoyed looking for thousands of missing people in flash flood conditions. That was the assumption they were given to work with by the police.
3) Workington Police who thought the organiser had lost the plot when they discovered he had organised a race given the weather conditions
Folk have to appreciate that the world does not see mountaineering or mountain marathons as we do. The lack of a PR machine to deal with authorities who are naturally going to see the OMM going ahead "against police advice" (BBC News 24) as negligent is in itself one very good reason why the OMM needs a radical re-structuring in terms of organisation.
Mark Weir worked solidly to assist Police and rescue workers with the "evacuation" of runners from Honister. He was efficient and organised. The organisers were not.
Very few people posting on this forum have had any regard for local opinion.
Also I do think the organisers should have had some PR machine- office space in Keswick in KEadventure for example with free promotion of KE (just a thought). I cite below list of people who are not happy
1) North Wales police- for having to come through to Cumbria
2) All the mountain rescue teams including a friend of ours who oh so enjoyed looking for thousands of missing people in flash flood conditions. That was the assumption they were given to work with by the police.
3) Workington Police who thought the organiser had lost the plot when they discovered he had organised a race given the weather conditions
Folk have to appreciate that the world does not see mountaineering or mountain marathons as we do. The lack of a PR machine to deal with authorities who are naturally going to see the OMM going ahead "against police advice" (BBC News 24) as negligent is in itself one very good reason why the OMM needs a radical re-structuring in terms of organisation.
In reply to Simon Overton:
indeed, - given the conditions the MRT, police and RAF could hardly have said "It's all OK, we won't deploy as everyone will be fine. We'll hold ourselves ready for normal operations."
indeed, - given the conditions the MRT, police and RAF could hardly have said "It's all OK, we won't deploy as everyone will be fine. We'll hold ourselves ready for normal operations."
In reply to all:
Someone reading this must know journalists at the BBC or elsewhere. Who started the hype, where did the story come from?
Looking back at the earliest reports, the mine owner is the person being quoted.
He'd had dealings with the media the preceding week hadn't he. Here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7688737.stm
Latest BBC report has the organisers saying that MR did not say it should be cancelled, and that even the police didn't say it should be cancelled.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7692727.stm
Someone reading this must know journalists at the BBC or elsewhere. Who started the hype, where did the story come from?
Looking back at the earliest reports, the mine owner is the person being quoted.
He'd had dealings with the media the preceding week hadn't he. Here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7688737.stm
Latest BBC report has the organisers saying that MR did not say it should be cancelled, and that even the police didn't say it should be cancelled.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7692727.stm
In reply to Simon Overton:
Who are you to decide that? The OMM has been held in Wales, Scotland and the Peak, and maybe Dartmoor, the Lakes is not indespensible. As said above, I think the money generated for the local economy far outweighs the occaisional (well handled) exceptional conditions.
> (In reply to James Jackson)
the OMM needs a radical re-structuring in terms of organisation.Who are you to decide that? The OMM has been held in Wales, Scotland and the Peak, and maybe Dartmoor, the Lakes is not indespensible. As said above, I think the money generated for the local economy far outweighs the occaisional (well handled) exceptional conditions.
In reply to Anonymous:
Was anyone actually "rescued" from the fells as a result of this? I've read a lot about people being offered shelter, and some patchy information about minor injuries, but I'm not sure what that adds up to.
Was anyone actually "rescued" from the fells as a result of this? I've read a lot about people being offered shelter, and some patchy information about minor injuries, but I'm not sure what that adds up to.
In reply to gingerkate:
The likeliest scenario in my experience is that the Cumbria team at the BBC would have already been covering the consequences of the weather, and through conversations with police and other emergency services, focused on the OMM. Without Mr Weir, the story may well have developed in a slightly different way, but he does give excellent quote, doesn't he?
> (In reply to all)
>
> Someone reading this must know journalists at the BBC or elsewhere. Who started the hype, where did the story come from?
>
> Someone reading this must know journalists at the BBC or elsewhere. Who started the hype, where did the story come from?
The likeliest scenario in my experience is that the Cumbria team at the BBC would have already been covering the consequences of the weather, and through conversations with police and other emergency services, focused on the OMM. Without Mr Weir, the story may well have developed in a slightly different way, but he does give excellent quote, doesn't he?
In reply to Al Evans:
How does it generate money for the local economy?? Where does most of the money go??? Can we see the accounts please???
I think you are correct- the Lakes will not host the event again WITH THE SAME ORGANISERS the police, RAF and MR will not stomach it.
As I have also tried to point out it is these folk along with Martin Weir who have the greatest voice locally. Doesn't matter what you or I think.
Even the fact that the school had to be opened when it had been flooded a few days earlier thus putting additional pressure on the local flood evacuation centre will be discussed at county level.
How does it generate money for the local economy?? Where does most of the money go??? Can we see the accounts please???
I think you are correct- the Lakes will not host the event again WITH THE SAME ORGANISERS the police, RAF and MR will not stomach it.
As I have also tried to point out it is these folk along with Martin Weir who have the greatest voice locally. Doesn't matter what you or I think.
Even the fact that the school had to be opened when it had been flooded a few days earlier thus putting additional pressure on the local flood evacuation centre will be discussed at county level.
In reply to Simon Overton:
As any farmer or resident of the Lakes should do without a moment's thought if the knock came on the door in foul weather.
As any farmer or resident of the Lakes should do without a moment's thought if the knock came on the door in foul weather.
In reply to Martin76:
Yes, whatever one thinks of Mr. Weir he's got quotable quotes down to a fine art.
Yes, whatever one thinks of Mr. Weir he's got quotable quotes down to a fine art.
In reply to Simon Overton:
Was anyone missing? Even one single person? I suspect everyone concerned knew exactly where they were and will have been unaware that they were being looked for. As someone else has pointed out, it was when the event was cancelled that well-prepared participants suddenly and inexplicably became 'missing people'.
> 2) All the mountain rescue teams including a friend of ours who oh so enjoyed looking for thousands of missing people in flash flood conditions.
Was anyone missing? Even one single person? I suspect everyone concerned knew exactly where they were and will have been unaware that they were being looked for. As someone else has pointed out, it was when the event was cancelled that well-prepared participants suddenly and inexplicably became 'missing people'.
In reply to IainRUK:
ligaments, broken bones but we've always got ourselves off the hill, but I'd rather be pushing the boundaries of what's possible for me than staying at home and sniping away which seems to be a UK past time at the moment.
That's fine as long as the only person you are putting at risk is yourself. This fiasco has rather highlighted the point that if 1000s of people get in to trouble together it puts other people at risk. The police effort put in to sorting out the OMM meant other incidents would have got less attention. The organisers need to address that. Dividing the numbers taking part in future by ten would seem appropriate I would have thought with similar restrictions on other mass events.
ligaments, broken bones but we've always got ourselves off the hill, but I'd rather be pushing the boundaries of what's possible for me than staying at home and sniping away which seems to be a UK past time at the moment.
That's fine as long as the only person you are putting at risk is yourself. This fiasco has rather highlighted the point that if 1000s of people get in to trouble together it puts other people at risk. The police effort put in to sorting out the OMM meant other incidents would have got less attention. The organisers need to address that. Dividing the numbers taking part in future by ten would seem appropriate I would have thought with similar restrictions on other mass events.
In reply to some: I just finished a very apt chapter in a book called "Feet in the Clouds" by Richard Askwith only a couple of days before the OMM. The chapter was about risk and responsibility and recounts a few stories of tragedy and repercussions in the hills. It couldn't be more pertinent to this thread.
The whole book is very accessible to the non-fell racer/MM participant and would give an insight into why some people take part in these things. I suggest that one or two contributors to this thread should read it before condemning the race organisers.
I'm also sure that many participants in the OMM are the sort of people who contribute regularly to Mountain Rescue teams. Perhaps members of these teams occasionally take part in these sorts of events too. I'm also sure that people contribute because they anticipate needing the Mountain Rescue at some point. And, as it turned out, some did. I'm not sure what the problem is. It's a mountain marathon for goodness sake, not a children's bouncy castle party.
And the police? Well, I pay my taxes. If they don't like having to help people now and again, they can always get another job.
The whole book is very accessible to the non-fell racer/MM participant and would give an insight into why some people take part in these things. I suggest that one or two contributors to this thread should read it before condemning the race organisers.
I'm also sure that many participants in the OMM are the sort of people who contribute regularly to Mountain Rescue teams. Perhaps members of these teams occasionally take part in these sorts of events too. I'm also sure that people contribute because they anticipate needing the Mountain Rescue at some point. And, as it turned out, some did. I'm not sure what the problem is. It's a mountain marathon for goodness sake, not a children's bouncy castle party.
And the police? Well, I pay my taxes. If they don't like having to help people now and again, they can always get another job.
In reply to Alyson:
Were you there? Do you live locally? Did any of the police speak to you personally?
Were you there? Do you live locally? Did any of the police speak to you personally?
In reply to Alyson:
Seems like a remarkable number of these "missing" people were in a barn at Gatesgarth. Now, where was the overnight camp due to be?
ALC
Seems like a remarkable number of these "missing" people were in a barn at Gatesgarth. Now, where was the overnight camp due to be?
ALC
In reply to Martin76:
what i was told (came from radio reports so who knows accuracy ???) that helicopter did rescue a
few people (7 ?) after one had been in the river and was pulled out by other runners. I've no evidence that any of this is true
been asked to talk to local press (in York!)
what i was told (came from radio reports so who knows accuracy ???) that helicopter did rescue a
few people (7 ?) after one had been in the river and was pulled out by other runners. I've no evidence that any of this is true
been asked to talk to local press (in York!)
In reply to lithos:
Don't bother, is my professional advice, unless you actually know the journalist and can de-sensationalise his copy for him.
> (In reply to Martin76)
>
>
> been asked to talk to local press (in York!)
>
> been asked to talk to local press (in York!)
Don't bother, is my professional advice, unless you actually know the journalist and can de-sensationalise his copy for him.
In reply to Al Evans:
It isn't held in Snowdonia anymore is it? Thought the NPA 'banned' it here?
> (In reply to Simon Overton)
> [...]
> the OMM needs a radical re-structuring in terms of organisation.
>
>
> Who are you to decide that? The OMM has been held in Wales, Scotland and the Peak, and maybe Dartmoor, the Lakes is not indespensible. As said above, I think the money generated for the local economy far outweighs the occaisional (well handled) exceptional conditions.
> [...]
> the OMM needs a radical re-structuring in terms of organisation.
>
>
> Who are you to decide that? The OMM has been held in Wales, Scotland and the Peak, and maybe Dartmoor, the Lakes is not indespensible. As said above, I think the money generated for the local economy far outweighs the occaisional (well handled) exceptional conditions.
It isn't held in Snowdonia anymore is it? Thought the NPA 'banned' it here?
In reply to Martin76:
yeah i have been burnt once before - we (local mountaineering club) are contemplating a written statement to stop them hassling our Sec. - but i suggested a no comment and it'd 'blow over'
by tommorrow
yeah i have been burnt once before - we (local mountaineering club) are contemplating a written statement to stop them hassling our Sec. - but i suggested a no comment and it'd 'blow over'
by tommorrow
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Where it belongs - in a Telegraph Editorial. Damn fine chaps and chappesses, these OMM types what!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/10/27/dl270...
> What has happened to the UK - stiff upper lip and all that?
Where it belongs - in a Telegraph Editorial. Damn fine chaps and chappesses, these OMM types what!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/10/27/dl270...
Simon O - you have been posting on this thread simce 9pm on Saturday, precisely when all this trauma was supposedly happening. If you are local and were there, what were you doing chatting on UKC forums?
In reply to lithos:
Don't 'No comment'. Just don't return the call! It always makes people sound churlish when they no comment.
> (In reply to Martin76)
>
> yeah i have been burnt once before - we (local mountaineering club) are contemplating a written statement to stop them hassling our Sec. - but i suggested a no comment and it'd 'blow over'
> by tommorrow
>
> yeah i have been burnt once before - we (local mountaineering club) are contemplating a written statement to stop them hassling our Sec. - but i suggested a no comment and it'd 'blow over'
> by tommorrow
Don't 'No comment'. Just don't return the call! It always makes people sound churlish when they no comment.
In reply to MG:
Did 1000's get into trouble?
>
>
> That's fine as long as the only person you are putting at risk is yourself. This fiasco has rather highlighted the point that if 1000s of people get in to trouble together it puts other people at risk. The police effort put in to sorting out the OMM meant other incidents would have got less attention. The organisers need to address that. Dividing the numbers taking part in future by ten would seem appropriate I would have thought with similar restrictions on other mass events.
>
> That's fine as long as the only person you are putting at risk is yourself. This fiasco has rather highlighted the point that if 1000s of people get in to trouble together it puts other people at risk. The police effort put in to sorting out the OMM meant other incidents would have got less attention. The organisers need to address that. Dividing the numbers taking part in future by ten would seem appropriate I would have thought with similar restrictions on other mass events.
Did 1000's get into trouble?
In reply to lithos: ha ha ha
i always forget to check this
'BANKS TO LEND YOU YOUR OWN MONEY' was funny too
i always forget to check this
'BANKS TO LEND YOU YOUR OWN MONEY' was funny too
In reply to fishyfishfish:
I believe, based on posts from way back when, that Simon has legitimate reasons for not being out wandering the hills.
Not that I'm condoning (or condemning) what he's saying - I'm reading the whole thread with interest.
> Simon O - you have been posting on this thread simce 9pm on Saturday, precisely when all this trauma was supposedly happening. If you are local and were there, what were you doing chatting on UKC forums?
I believe, based on posts from way back when, that Simon has legitimate reasons for not being out wandering the hills.
Not that I'm condoning (or condemning) what he's saying - I'm reading the whole thread with interest.
In reply to IainRUK:
Depends what you mean by trouble but hardly the point. If police were being brought from N Wales, the event was clearly affecting others in a disproportinate manner.
> (In reply to MG)
> [...]
>
>
> Did 1000's get into trouble?
> [...]
>
>
> Did 1000's get into trouble?
Depends what you mean by trouble but hardly the point. If police were being brought from N Wales, the event was clearly affecting others in a disproportinate manner.
In reply to Martin76:
"Was anyone actually "rescued" from the fells as a result of this"
local radio/TV has been covering flood stories over the past months and weeks as they have been numerous. In the run up to the event there was amazing film of the conditions re the school party on Thursday
Yes, reports of several people airlifted from a scene where a competitor fell into a stream and was hypothermic + head injuries. Reports of hospitals treating hypothermia cases I think in the teens. Plus reports over many hours of MRTs being active accounting for people
this seems to me to be a bit like the millennium bug legend, that there was never a problem because not much happened on the day. In reality many people worked to prevent the problems, so what would have happened here if there hadn't been the big emergency effort?
"Was anyone actually "rescued" from the fells as a result of this"
local radio/TV has been covering flood stories over the past months and weeks as they have been numerous. In the run up to the event there was amazing film of the conditions re the school party on Thursday
Yes, reports of several people airlifted from a scene where a competitor fell into a stream and was hypothermic + head injuries. Reports of hospitals treating hypothermia cases I think in the teens. Plus reports over many hours of MRTs being active accounting for people
this seems to me to be a bit like the millennium bug legend, that there was never a problem because not much happened on the day. In reality many people worked to prevent the problems, so what would have happened here if there hadn't been the big emergency effort?
In reply to Simon Overton:
Flipping heck you're going to have to do better than that. Can't even be bothered to bite, sorry.
> (In reply to Alyson)
>
> Were you there? Do you live locally? Did any of the police speak to you personally?
>
> Were you there? Do you live locally? Did any of the police speak to you personally?
Flipping heck you're going to have to do better than that. Can't even be bothered to bite, sorry.
In reply to Anonymous: That's the thing, though: they're all "reports", and as we've seen over the last two days many things being "reported" are agenda driven falsehoods.
In reply to MG: I've said the size of the event needs looking at. Not as drastically as you. but football games draft in extra police. Very suprising to see so many climbers play the safety at all costs cards.
So what if people did need rescuing? Is that such an issue. If people didn't eat, drink and smoke so much the emergency services wouldn't be under so much pressure.
So what if people did need rescuing? Is that such an issue. If people didn't eat, drink and smoke so much the emergency services wouldn't be under so much pressure.
In reply to Tall Clare:
1) I have mobility problems as I have a generalised dysautonomia. A lot of the time I use a wheelchair.
2) Whilst travelling back from Barnard Castle we heard on the news about the event with pleas from presumably martin weir for buses- this was on radio 4
3) I have two friends who normally win events like this- so concerned given news report
4) On arriving home the police were desperately looking for our house using a search light. Officer got out of van and asked who we were. Complete chaos, told they were totally overwhelmed etc, etc. asked to go through to sheep and wool centre to collect friends.
1) I have mobility problems as I have a generalised dysautonomia. A lot of the time I use a wheelchair.
2) Whilst travelling back from Barnard Castle we heard on the news about the event with pleas from presumably martin weir for buses- this was on radio 4
3) I have two friends who normally win events like this- so concerned given news report
4) On arriving home the police were desperately looking for our house using a search light. Officer got out of van and asked who we were. Complete chaos, told they were totally overwhelmed etc, etc. asked to go through to sheep and wool centre to collect friends.
In reply to Simon4:
nice comments though
is this parody? genuine? irony? post-modernism? meta-parody?
i can' t tell anymore . . .
I have nothing but contempt for them and the BBC which made it their main news story . A bunch of fools. I hope the event is banned .
There are people dying in Iraq and Afghanistan because of Blair and these twits are prancing about the moors . Why dont they devote some of their copius energy to helping the elderly.
Posted by Simon Marsh on October 27, 2008 9:49 AM
>
> Where it belongs - in a Telegraph Editorial. Damn fine chaps and chappesses, these OMM types what!
> Where it belongs - in a Telegraph Editorial. Damn fine chaps and chappesses, these OMM types what!
nice comments though
is this parody? genuine? irony? post-modernism? meta-parody?
i can' t tell anymore . . .
I have nothing but contempt for them and the BBC which made it their main news story . A bunch of fools. I hope the event is banned .
There are people dying in Iraq and Afghanistan because of Blair and these twits are prancing about the moors . Why dont they devote some of their copius energy to helping the elderly.
Posted by Simon Marsh on October 27, 2008 9:49 AM
In reply to rich:
it sounds a bit speakyourbranes-ish (http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com/)
> (In reply to Simon4)
> [...]
>
> nice comments though
>
> is this parody? genuine? irony? post-modernism? meta-parody?
>
> i can' t tell anymore . . .
>
> I have nothing but contempt for them and the BBC which made it their main news story . A bunch of fools. I hope the event is banned .
> There are people dying in Iraq and Afghanistan because of Blair and these twits are prancing about the moors . Why dont they devote some of their copius energy to helping the elderly.
> Posted by Simon Marsh on October 27, 2008 9:49 AM
> [...]
>
> nice comments though
>
> is this parody? genuine? irony? post-modernism? meta-parody?
>
> i can' t tell anymore . . .
>
> I have nothing but contempt for them and the BBC which made it their main news story . A bunch of fools. I hope the event is banned .
> There are people dying in Iraq and Afghanistan because of Blair and these twits are prancing about the moors . Why dont they devote some of their copius energy to helping the elderly.
> Posted by Simon Marsh on October 27, 2008 9:49 AM
it sounds a bit speakyourbranes-ish (http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com/)
In reply to Tall Clare: indeed
What a great day out on the hill... ok it was a bit wet and wild, and quite possibly one of my hardest single days in the UK hills, but other than that a thoroughly enjoyable time. I was personally gutted when told the event had been cancelled.
Harry and I assisted with two suspected broken ankles, we helped erect their tent, took grid ref's and told others to report asap, made them safe and warm and left them comfortableish. They were in no immediate danger as visiblity was ok, they had survival equipment and enough food, water and gas for two days, also thier location was on one of the main 'thoroughfares'.
We were informed of the event being cancelled as we arrived at the Honister mine, we didn't hang about as the place was full, so we dropped down to Seatoller where our camper was situated. We'd had the foresight to park in the village car-park rather than risk going down the lane to the farm where the registration site was. This proved to be a wise choice as we found when returning our 'dibber' to registration, we had to wade in the waist deep water that now covered the road. We quickly returned to the warmth of our camper and stayed the night as we knew that the roads were flooded.
It wasn't until later that evening as one of our party used the village call box to call home that we reaslised we were in the middle of a major news story, we turned on the radio and couldn't believe what we were hearing! Most of those interviewed spoke great sense, however there were a few that went for the sentational angle - it really didn't need that!
All-in-all no-one died, everyone has a tale to tell, I wished it hadn't been pulled as yesterday was much much bettr - but I understand why it was.
Hope this helps as you dissect the news items etc.
TtB
In reply to Simon Overton:
I think I may know your friends, as you've mentioned them before, 2 brothers, scottish, ran with one of them in a similar event in the same area and there's few harder runners out there. The guy eats dried museli while running - nuff said! I'd have thought they'd have lapped it up. In fact it may have moistened his muesli.
> (In reply to Tall Clare)
>
> 1) I have mobility problems as I have a generalised dysautonomia. A lot of the time I use a wheelchair.
> 2) Whilst travelling back from Barnard Castle we heard on the news about the event with pleas from presumably martin weir for buses- this was on radio 4
> 3) I have two friends who normally win events like this- so concerned given news report
> 4) On arriving home the police were desperately looking for our house using a search light. Officer got out of van and asked who we were. Complete chaos, told they were totally overwhelmed etc, etc. asked to go through to sheep and wool centre to collect friends.
>
> 1) I have mobility problems as I have a generalised dysautonomia. A lot of the time I use a wheelchair.
> 2) Whilst travelling back from Barnard Castle we heard on the news about the event with pleas from presumably martin weir for buses- this was on radio 4
> 3) I have two friends who normally win events like this- so concerned given news report
> 4) On arriving home the police were desperately looking for our house using a search light. Officer got out of van and asked who we were. Complete chaos, told they were totally overwhelmed etc, etc. asked to go through to sheep and wool centre to collect friends.
I think I may know your friends, as you've mentioned them before, 2 brothers, scottish, ran with one of them in a similar event in the same area and there's few harder runners out there. The guy eats dried museli while running - nuff said! I'd have thought they'd have lapped it up. In fact it may have moistened his muesli.
In reply to lithos:
Point out the fact that nobody was unaccounted for when they said over 1000 were. They would have been able to say that only of the people who were still on the hills on Saturday night and not checked in anywhere.
Heli was called to person who had been in river and had to be rescued by others first, the pilot was on radio last night. Hypothermia suspected, but needing help when totally immersed not surprising.
Ask which MRT advised the organisers not to run the event, pointing out they had a lot of members competing. Should they be drummed out of their team for starting?
Point out the fact that nobody was unaccounted for when they said over 1000 were. They would have been able to say that only of the people who were still on the hills on Saturday night and not checked in anywhere.
Heli was called to person who had been in river and had to be rescued by others first, the pilot was on radio last night. Hypothermia suspected, but needing help when totally immersed not surprising.
Ask which MRT advised the organisers not to run the event, pointing out they had a lot of members competing. Should they be drummed out of their team for starting?
In reply to Simon Overton: As has been said above, there still seems to be conflict about what the emergency services were doing, about who alerted them, about what task they were given, and about whether the organisers had called in the scale of response that you suggest.
There is definitely a conflict between "reported" stories, like yours, because you weren't on site, and those of the competitors. I realise that some have been found scared and terrified, but lots more seem to have gone back to their cars, pushed each other out of the fields and gone home without major incident.
Who are your two friends? Were they concerned for themselves? I've not seen a single negative comment from any elite teams.
There is definitely a conflict between "reported" stories, like yours, because you weren't on site, and those of the competitors. I realise that some have been found scared and terrified, but lots more seem to have gone back to their cars, pushed each other out of the fields and gone home without major incident.
Who are your two friends? Were they concerned for themselves? I've not seen a single negative comment from any elite teams.
In reply to rich:
Nothing much any website (including this one) can do about comments, other than those supposedly open sites that censor views they don't approve of. Whats wrong with having contempt for the Biased Broadcasting Corporation though? Sounds entirely appropriate (not about having contempt for the OMM participants).
> nice comments though ...
> I have nothing but contempt for them and the BBC which made it their main news story . A bunch of fools. I hope the event is banned .
Nothing much any website (including this one) can do about comments, other than those supposedly open sites that censor views they don't approve of. Whats wrong with having contempt for the Biased Broadcasting Corporation though? Sounds entirely appropriate (not about having contempt for the OMM participants).
In reply to Simon Overton:
Supposition and your opinion...hardly fact.
Oh come off it - I grew up in Cumbria, it will have not mattered one jot the vast majority of people in Cumbria. As for your implication that local opinion counts more...nonsense.
Ain't hindsight wonderful - I bet the OMM organisers wish they had someone in a better location for communications now.
Well done - how about if I get a list of people who were happy...what does it prove???
Actually I agree with you to a point, there is definitely a lesson to be learned about communication and educating other parties involved. Doesn't take a radical re-structuring though.
> (In reply to James Jackson)
>
> Mark Weir worked solidly to assist Police and rescue workers with the "evacuation" of runners from Honister. He was efficient and organised. The organisers were not.
>
> Mark Weir worked solidly to assist Police and rescue workers with the "evacuation" of runners from Honister. He was efficient and organised. The organisers were not.
Supposition and your opinion...hardly fact.
> Very few people posting on this forum have had any regard for local opinion.
Oh come off it - I grew up in Cumbria, it will have not mattered one jot the vast majority of people in Cumbria. As for your implication that local opinion counts more...nonsense.
> Also I do think the organisers should have had some PR machine- office space in Keswick in KEadventure for example with free promotion of KE (just a thought).
Ain't hindsight wonderful - I bet the OMM organisers wish they had someone in a better location for communications now.
> I cite below list of people who are not happy
Well done - how about if I get a list of people who were happy...what does it prove???
>
> Folk have to appreciate that the world does not see mountaineering or mountain marathons as we do. The lack of a PR machine to deal with authorities who are naturally going to see the OMM going ahead "against police advice" (BBC News 24) as negligent is in itself one very good reason why the OMM needs a radical re-structuring in terms of organisation.
> Folk have to appreciate that the world does not see mountaineering or mountain marathons as we do. The lack of a PR machine to deal with authorities who are naturally going to see the OMM going ahead "against police advice" (BBC News 24) as negligent is in itself one very good reason why the OMM needs a radical re-structuring in terms of organisation.
Actually I agree with you to a point, there is definitely a lesson to be learned about communication and educating other parties involved. Doesn't take a radical re-structuring though.
In reply to almost sane:
That's overstated by a factor of about ten, if you're referring to just the UK.
> If this weekend was like any other weekend, then there will have been about 200 deaths due to road traffic incidents
That's overstated by a factor of about ten, if you're referring to just the UK.
In reply to IainRUK:
For me its a question of proportionality. If one running event can swamp an entire police force when things don't go to plan then I think there is something pretty wrong.
> So what if people did need rescuing? Is that such an issue. If people didn't eat, drink and smoke so much the emergency services wouldn't be under so much pressure.
For me its a question of proportionality. If one running event can swamp an entire police force when things don't go to plan then I think there is something pretty wrong.
In reply to Simon Overton: Fair enough. But, if you heard about the Honister events on the radio, you arn't really in any better position to comment than anyone else. Everyone is fine. Chill out.
In reply to Simon4:
Great comments, specially liked this one for going off track;
At times of burst water pipes, a plumber is of more use than a runner, anyday!
Great comments, specially liked this one for going off track;
At times of burst water pipes, a plumber is of more use than a runner, anyday!
In reply to fishyfishfish:
Let's not allow trifling matters like that to stand in the way of wild conjecture
> Everyone is fine. Chill out.
Let's not allow trifling matters like that to stand in the way of wild conjecture
In reply to IainRUK:
Is anyone saying that? The problem is the organisers and runners relied overly on residents and police to provide backup and shelter, thus inconveniencing others (OK, Mark Weir has done OK but only by luck).
> Very suprising to see so many climbers play the safety at all costs cards.
>
>
Is anyone saying that? The problem is the organisers and runners relied overly on residents and police to provide backup and shelter, thus inconveniencing others (OK, Mark Weir has done OK but only by luck).
In reply to MG: It is still important to establish what level of police involvement was required and what number of people *needed* rescuing.
In reply to MJH:
Why?
What was the level of police involvement in the Great South Run held at Portsmouth yesterday? How many people needed St. John's assistance?
> (In reply to MG) It is still important to establish what level of police involvement was required and what number of people *needed* rescuing.
Why?
What was the level of police involvement in the Great South Run held at Portsmouth yesterday? How many people needed St. John's assistance?
In reply to MG:
No they didn't - assistance kindly offered is one thing, but needing it is something completely different. Any team out there should have been in a position to look after themselves (accidents apart) - that is part of the rules and ethos of a MM.
> (In reply to IainRUK)
> [...]
>
> Is anyone saying that? The problem is the organisers and runners relied overly on residents and police to provide backup and shelter, thus inconveniencing others (OK, Mark Weir has done OK but only by luck).
> [...]
>
> Is anyone saying that? The problem is the organisers and runners relied overly on residents and police to provide backup and shelter, thus inconveniencing others (OK, Mark Weir has done OK but only by luck).
No they didn't - assistance kindly offered is one thing, but needing it is something completely different. Any team out there should have been in a position to look after themselves (accidents apart) - that is part of the rules and ethos of a MM.
In reply to MG:
I'm not sure they did. I just think this is an inherent risk with holding a big event. I think people should look at the positives, locals helping out, runners coping. Bloody hell in North Wales locals would be bolting their doors!
Is this really such a big story. 12, TWELVE, hospitalised. That's about as much as in this years Snowdon race.
> (In reply to IainRUK)
> [...]
>
> Is anyone saying that? The problem is the organisers and runners relied overly on residents and police to provide backup and shelter, thus inconveniencing others (OK, Mark Weir has done OK but only by luck).
> [...]
>
> Is anyone saying that? The problem is the organisers and runners relied overly on residents and police to provide backup and shelter, thus inconveniencing others (OK, Mark Weir has done OK but only by luck).
I'm not sure they did. I just think this is an inherent risk with holding a big event. I think people should look at the positives, locals helping out, runners coping. Bloody hell in North Wales locals would be bolting their doors!
Is this really such a big story. 12, TWELVE, hospitalised. That's about as much as in this years Snowdon race.
In reply to IainRUK: and now there will be some lively debate on Jeremy Vine this afternoon. This should be interesting.
In reply to Tony the Blade: Because detractors are making such a big thing about it. If for example there were 5 police on duty and they were overwhelmed then saying the entire Cumbiran police force was overwhelmed is misleading. Likewise saying the MRTs were overwhelmed without knowing the facts.
I agree with you the total number (and proportion) of injuries at the GSR will probably have been greater.
I agree with you the total number (and proportion) of injuries at the GSR will probably have been greater.
Ah, just be glad Willie's new barn at Gatesgarth wasn't quite finished and so wasn't full of livestock......it'd have been pretty crowded then!
In reply to MJH: Vine has posed the question. "Who foots the bill for the £10 000 rescue?"
In reply to MG: "The police effort put in to sorting out the OMM meant other incidents would have got less attention."
Or replace OMM with Sunderland V Newcastle etc etc.
Or replace OMM with Sunderland V Newcastle etc etc.
In reply to MJH:
The only mention so far on MRT websites seems to be this;
http://www.wasdale-mountain-rescue.org.uk/callouts~2008.htm
The only mention so far on MRT websites seems to be this;
http://www.wasdale-mountain-rescue.org.uk/callouts~2008.htm
In reply to sutty: you should put on radio2. absolutely stupid!
In reply to sutty:
Yes, don't know why it's not on the Cockermouth website yet - think a wedding yesterday probably took priority! Should be up in the next few days, I'd think. Keswick were also heavily involved.
Yes, don't know why it's not on the Cockermouth website yet - think a wedding yesterday probably took priority! Should be up in the next few days, I'd think. Keswick were also heavily involved.
In reply to Chris H: Or check out the ambulance call outs for idiot bikers in the North Tyne every sunday
In reply to Carolyn: The Times says that the leader of Cockermouth MRT was competing.
In reply to Carolyn:
I never said that.
> (In reply to dmhigg)
>
> Goodness, there has been some accurate reporting, then
>
>
> Goodness, there has been some accurate reporting, then
>
I never said that.
In reply to Carolyn:
There was a request yesterday on the fell runner forums from The Times for someone to present a balanced view from a runner's perspective.
http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/showthread.php?t=5702
And for a similar thread to this: http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/showthread.php?t=5133
ALC
There was a request yesterday on the fell runner forums from The Times for someone to present a balanced view from a runner's perspective.
http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/showthread.php?t=5702
And for a similar thread to this: http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/showthread.php?t=5133
ALC
In reply to Chris H:
Who pay rather large sums to the police for their presence.
> (In reply to MG) "The police effort put in to sorting out the OMM meant other incidents would have got less attention."
>
> Or replace OMM with Sunderland V Newcastle etc etc.
>
> Or replace OMM with Sunderland V Newcastle etc etc.
Who pay rather large sums to the police for their presence.
In reply to Tree:
...idiot bikers needing ambulances, idiot fell runners needing helicopters...
About this cost thing. Perhaps this happens already but my take on it is that this event is just another organised sporting event, no different from a football match (to those with no interest in either sport). The additional cost of policing a football match is met by the football clubs, I'm not sure about first aid but I presume people like St John's ambulance don't turn up for nothing either. I'd expect that the organisers of the OMM should likewise foot the bill for any costs incurred by the public purse as a result of the event they have organised. Presumably they could take out insurance for this sort of thing.
If I go out onto the hill by myself in bad weather the chances of me having to get rescued might be 1000 to 1. If I organise an event which sends 2500 people into the hills in bad weather who have the same odds of needing rescued as I do, the chances are that 2 or 3 people will need rescued. Therefore my expectation when starting the event is that a number of rescues will be required, I should anticipate this and be prepared to pay for it.
> (In reply to Chris H) Or check out the ambulance call outs for idiot bikers in the North Tyne every sunday
...idiot bikers needing ambulances, idiot fell runners needing helicopters...
About this cost thing. Perhaps this happens already but my take on it is that this event is just another organised sporting event, no different from a football match (to those with no interest in either sport). The additional cost of policing a football match is met by the football clubs, I'm not sure about first aid but I presume people like St John's ambulance don't turn up for nothing either. I'd expect that the organisers of the OMM should likewise foot the bill for any costs incurred by the public purse as a result of the event they have organised. Presumably they could take out insurance for this sort of thing.
If I go out onto the hill by myself in bad weather the chances of me having to get rescued might be 1000 to 1. If I organise an event which sends 2500 people into the hills in bad weather who have the same odds of needing rescued as I do, the chances are that 2 or 3 people will need rescued. Therefore my expectation when starting the event is that a number of rescues will be required, I should anticipate this and be prepared to pay for it.
In reply to Removed User: Eric fell runners raise £1000's a year for MRT's. I doubt there is another sector in outdoor sports that formally raises money week in week out at races like fell running. If MRT's want to start charging races for rescuing that's fair enough. What race organisers would do then is save that money and use it to pay fro any necessary MRT costs at an event. I'd guarentee the MRT's would lose money if this was to happen.
MRT's are so much a part of fell running, races organised by them, for them, many run. It'd be interesting to find an MRT member wanting their team to charge RO's?
MRT's are so much a part of fell running, races organised by them, for them, many run. It'd be interesting to find an MRT member wanting their team to charge RO's?
In reply to IainRUK:
Well perhaps Ian, perhaps not.
What about the cost of police overtime and the other incidental costs incurred by the public purse as a result of this event?
> (In reply to Eric9Points) Eric fell runners raise £1000's a year for MRT's. I doubt there is another sector in outdoor sports that formally raises money week in week out at races like fell running. If MRT's want to start charging races for rescuing that's fair enough. What race organisers would do then is save that money and use it to pay fro any necessary MRT costs at an event. I'd guarentee the MRT's would lose money if this was to happen.
>
>
Well perhaps Ian, perhaps not.
What about the cost of police overtime and the other incidental costs incurred by the public purse as a result of this event?
In reply to Removed User:
Nope - they are volunteers.
Why? How is it any different to when you go out in the hills? Ultimately the people who pay are the participants, not the organisers (they will just pass costs) - would you be happy to pay a fee to go climbing on the chance you might be rescued.
> (In reply to Removed UserTree)
> I'm not sure about first aid but I presume people like St John's ambulance don't turn up for nothing either.
> I'm not sure about first aid but I presume people like St John's ambulance don't turn up for nothing either.
Nope - they are volunteers.
> I'd expect that the organisers of the OMM should likewise foot the bill for any costs incurred by the public purse as a result of the event they have organised. Presumably they could take out insurance for this sort of thing.
>
> If I go out onto the hill by myself in bad weather the chances of me having to get rescued might be 1000 to 1. If I organise an event which sends 2500 people into the hills in bad weather who have the same odds of needing rescued as I do, the chances are that 2 or 3 people will need rescued. Therefore my expectation when starting the event is that a number of rescues will be required, I should anticipate this and be prepared to pay for it.
>
> If I go out onto the hill by myself in bad weather the chances of me having to get rescued might be 1000 to 1. If I organise an event which sends 2500 people into the hills in bad weather who have the same odds of needing rescued as I do, the chances are that 2 or 3 people will need rescued. Therefore my expectation when starting the event is that a number of rescues will be required, I should anticipate this and be prepared to pay for it.
Why? How is it any different to when you go out in the hills? Ultimately the people who pay are the participants, not the organisers (they will just pass costs) - would you be happy to pay a fee to go climbing on the chance you might be rescued.
In reply to Removed User:
There is little doubt about it!
Until we actually have clearer information then is there really any point in carrying on this self-defeating line? You may not think so, but you can guarantee that the general public will see little difference between mountaineering and mtn marathons.
> (In reply to Removed UserIainRUK)
> [...]
>
> Well perhaps Ian, perhaps not.
> [...]
>
> Well perhaps Ian, perhaps not.
There is little doubt about it!
> What about the cost of police overtime and the other incidental costs incurred by the public purse as a result of this event?
Until we actually have clearer information then is there really any point in carrying on this self-defeating line? You may not think so, but you can guarantee that the general public will see little difference between mountaineering and mtn marathons.
In reply to Removed User:
Well lets do that for all events. I am hugely dissapointed in people speaking out about people wanting to get out in the hills. So what there was a cost. the cost of obesity is far far higher. Do fat people get charged more?
Personally I'd just sign a disclaimer saying if I don't come back on X leave me. I'd not want fees to rise anymore pricing people out of compeition like has happened to road racing. yet the same muppets moan about inactive people.
Hugely dissapointed.
> (In reply to Removed UserIainRUK)
> [...]
>
> Well perhaps Ian, perhaps not.
>
> What about the cost of police overtime and the other incidental costs incurred by the public purse as a result of this event?
> [...]
>
> Well perhaps Ian, perhaps not.
>
> What about the cost of police overtime and the other incidental costs incurred by the public purse as a result of this event?
Well lets do that for all events. I am hugely dissapointed in people speaking out about people wanting to get out in the hills. So what there was a cost. the cost of obesity is far far higher. Do fat people get charged more?
Personally I'd just sign a disclaimer saying if I don't come back on X leave me. I'd not want fees to rise anymore pricing people out of compeition like has happened to road racing. yet the same muppets moan about inactive people.
Hugely dissapointed.
I have just heard Mike Whatsisface, organiser of the OMM on the radio twice in the last 15 minutes. Once on the Jeremy Vine show and then a few minutes later on You and Yours on Radio 4. Alas, the softly spoken Lancastrian didn't come across very well against hard edged media types who interviewed him. My conclusions about this event are therefore as follows:
- 1500 people didn't need to be rescued
- The police have done that thing they always do - "If only we had listerned to them blah blah blah." I reckon they have to say this otherwise they would look irresponsible. Of course if the whole thing had passed off without incident, whether they had said anything or not would have been irrelivant.
- The media storm on Sunday was much worse than the real storm
- The OMM really have to up their game from the media point of view and fight their corner a bit better. Not that I expected them to be any good at it in the first place (I reckon their skill is in organising marathons) but maybe in the future, it will be one more contingency plan that needs to be put in place i.e. fighting off the b@stard media.
- 1500 people didn't need to be rescued
- The police have done that thing they always do - "If only we had listerned to them blah blah blah." I reckon they have to say this otherwise they would look irresponsible. Of course if the whole thing had passed off without incident, whether they had said anything or not would have been irrelivant.
- The media storm on Sunday was much worse than the real storm
- The OMM really have to up their game from the media point of view and fight their corner a bit better. Not that I expected them to be any good at it in the first place (I reckon their skill is in organising marathons) but maybe in the future, it will be one more contingency plan that needs to be put in place i.e. fighting off the b@stard media.
In reply to Jon Dittman:
I disagree here. I think, rightly so, OMM's organisers were paying attention to making sure everyone was off the hill, rather than their 'public face'.
I'd just leave it. Storm in a tea cup that will disapear very quickly.
> I have just heard Mike Whatsisface, organiser of the OMM on the radio twice in the last 15 minutes. Once on the Jeremy Vine show and then a few minutes later on You and Yours on Radio 4. Alas, the softly spoken Lancastrian didn't come across very well against hard edged media types who interviewed him. My conclusions about this event are therefore as follows:
>
> - 1500 people didn't need to be rescued
> - The police have done that thing they always do - "If only we had listerned to them blah blah blah." I reckon they have to say this otherwise they would look irresponsible. Of course if the whole thing had passed off without incident, whether they had said anything or not would have been irrelivant.
> - The media storm on Sunday was much worse than the real storm
> - The OMM really have to up their game from the media point of view and fight their corner a bit better. Not that I expected them to be any good at it in the first place (I reckon their skill is in organising marathons) but maybe in the future, it will be one more contingency plan that needs to be put in place i.e. fighting off the b@stard media.
>
> - 1500 people didn't need to be rescued
> - The police have done that thing they always do - "If only we had listerned to them blah blah blah." I reckon they have to say this otherwise they would look irresponsible. Of course if the whole thing had passed off without incident, whether they had said anything or not would have been irrelivant.
> - The media storm on Sunday was much worse than the real storm
> - The OMM really have to up their game from the media point of view and fight their corner a bit better. Not that I expected them to be any good at it in the first place (I reckon their skill is in organising marathons) but maybe in the future, it will be one more contingency plan that needs to be put in place i.e. fighting off the b@stard media.
I disagree here. I think, rightly so, OMM's organisers were paying attention to making sure everyone was off the hill, rather than their 'public face'.
I'd just leave it. Storm in a tea cup that will disapear very quickly.
In reply to Removed User:
And this was really caused by the weather. It's important to remember that it's about additonal costs though. Let's assume that the event added to the police costs it's important to remember that we don't necessarily know by how much. Also, if they called it off on Friday night, the problems of people trying to get through to the motorway would still have happened presumably. Seems to me that flooded roads were one of the biggest problems (although there must also be a big issue with property damage, livestock etc. which shouldn't be forgotten).
The policing of football matches is different and is largely to do with crowd control, surely? OK, this event may have placed some burden on the police but it's nowhere near the same burden as a large and potentially violent football crowd.
> (In reply to Removed UserIainRUK)
> [...]
>
> Well perhaps Ian, perhaps not.
>
> What about the cost of police overtime and the other incidental costs incurred by the public purse as a result of this event?
> [...]
>
> Well perhaps Ian, perhaps not.
>
> What about the cost of police overtime and the other incidental costs incurred by the public purse as a result of this event?
And this was really caused by the weather. It's important to remember that it's about additonal costs though. Let's assume that the event added to the police costs it's important to remember that we don't necessarily know by how much. Also, if they called it off on Friday night, the problems of people trying to get through to the motorway would still have happened presumably. Seems to me that flooded roads were one of the biggest problems (although there must also be a big issue with property damage, livestock etc. which shouldn't be forgotten).
The policing of football matches is different and is largely to do with crowd control, surely? OK, this event may have placed some burden on the police but it's nowhere near the same burden as a large and potentially violent football crowd.
In reply to cathsullivan:
Additionally I'm not sure that money-spinning football matches are a fair comparison for the OMM which I would guess makes very little profit.
With football, some people stand to make an awful lot of money but to do so will put a drain on collective resources regardless of whether there's a major and unfortunate incident. Police will be required purely for crowd control and to dissuade anybody from starting anything.
The OMM (probably) makes very little money and only required use of collective resources in extenuating circumstances.
Whilst police will have been paid a sum for crowd control etc at the Manchester - Glasgow match, were they paid the additional balance for all the trouble caused that night?
Additionally I'm not sure that money-spinning football matches are a fair comparison for the OMM which I would guess makes very little profit.
With football, some people stand to make an awful lot of money but to do so will put a drain on collective resources regardless of whether there's a major and unfortunate incident. Police will be required purely for crowd control and to dissuade anybody from starting anything.
The OMM (probably) makes very little money and only required use of collective resources in extenuating circumstances.
Whilst police will have been paid a sum for crowd control etc at the Manchester - Glasgow match, were they paid the additional balance for all the trouble caused that night?
In reply to IainRUK:
I agree totally on this point. I didn't expect them to be good with media types. Like you say, the organisers were doing a fantastic job, doing what they had to do. I have no reason to suspect otherwise.
I agree that the media will move on, but one needs to be vigilant in a world where the health and safety rubber stamping, desk pushing, blotter jotters seem to have more say over things they don't understand than they should. If the OMM were to be held in the Lakes again next year for example, it would only take someone like Mr Honistor Mines shouting from the rafters of a local council meeting to get the licence for such an event revoked.
> I disagree here. I think, rightly so, OMM's organisers were paying attention to making sure everyone was off the hill, rather than their 'public face'.
I agree totally on this point. I didn't expect them to be good with media types. Like you say, the organisers were doing a fantastic job, doing what they had to do. I have no reason to suspect otherwise.
> I'd just leave it. Storm in a tea cup that will disapear very quickly.
I agree that the media will move on, but one needs to be vigilant in a world where the health and safety rubber stamping, desk pushing, blotter jotters seem to have more say over things they don't understand than they should. If the OMM were to be held in the Lakes again next year for example, it would only take someone like Mr Honistor Mines shouting from the rafters of a local council meeting to get the licence for such an event revoked.
In reply to Removed User:
You must be a serious risk, I would not place the odds on myself requiring rescue at anything like 1000 to 1. I doubt most climbers or runners would either.
> (In reply to Removed UserTree)
> [...]
If I go out onto the hill by myself in bad weather the chances of me having to get rescued might be 1000 to 1. > [...]
You must be a serious risk, I would not place the odds on myself requiring rescue at anything like 1000 to 1. I doubt most climbers or runners would either.
In reply to IainRUK:
Fine in principle but you well know that large numbers of people will never be left to die on a hillside. Whatever the scenario there will always be rescue efforts. I really don't think people are suggesting your shouldn't be free to take what ever risks you want if they effect only you. It is the possible implications for everyone else that are the issue. Deliberately concentrating large numbers risk takers in one location (e.g. by organising a fell race or a football crowd) carries responsibilities as the consequences of any problem are magnified and felt people not directly involved in the event. Having contingency plans for bad weather and limiting the numbers to manageable level seem realistic options in the case of the OMM.
> Personally I'd just sign a disclaimer saying if I don't come back on X leave me. I'd not want fees to rise anymore pricing people out of compeition like has happened to road racing. yet the same muppets moan about inactive people.
>
> Hugely dissapointed.
>
> Hugely dissapointed.
Fine in principle but you well know that large numbers of people will never be left to die on a hillside. Whatever the scenario there will always be rescue efforts. I really don't think people are suggesting your shouldn't be free to take what ever risks you want if they effect only you. It is the possible implications for everyone else that are the issue. Deliberately concentrating large numbers risk takers in one location (e.g. by organising a fell race or a football crowd) carries responsibilities as the consequences of any problem are magnified and felt people not directly involved in the event. Having contingency plans for bad weather and limiting the numbers to manageable level seem realistic options in the case of the OMM.
In reply to MG: I've said the size of the OMM needs addressing. Contingency plans? Like what postponing, cancelling or shortening the routes, all were considered or done.
In reply to niallk:
http://www.met.police.uk/foi/pdfs/other_information/archive/2005/cost_of_po...
That shows the met costs about £4million more to police matches in the premier than they get paid off the teams.
Will the farmers get bills for the rescue of sheep and cattle, or is that not in the emergency services remit.
http://www.met.police.uk/foi/pdfs/other_information/archive/2005/cost_of_po...
That shows the met costs about £4million more to police matches in the premier than they get paid off the teams.
Will the farmers get bills for the rescue of sheep and cattle, or is that not in the emergency services remit.
In reply to IainRUK:
I would add what to do when the weather makes camping impossible/dangerous, which is hardly an unpredictable scenario.
I think we broadly agree but you are coming over as very defensive which I don't think is necessary, particularly on this forum.
Incidentally the size problem doesn't only relate to safety. I happened to be walking on the same day as the OMM(?) around Haweswater a few years ago and the competitors had had a really noticeable effect on the state of all the paths. Erosion and conservation are also issues exacerbated by concentrating large numbers in one area.
> (In reply to MG) I've said the size of the OMM needs addressing. Contingency plans? Like what postponing, cancelling or shortening the routes, all were considered or done.
I would add what to do when the weather makes camping impossible/dangerous, which is hardly an unpredictable scenario.
I think we broadly agree but you are coming over as very defensive which I don't think is necessary, particularly on this forum.
Incidentally the size problem doesn't only relate to safety. I happened to be walking on the same day as the OMM(?) around Haweswater a few years ago and the competitors had had a really noticeable effect on the state of all the paths. Erosion and conservation are also issues exacerbated by concentrating large numbers in one area.
just seen KMC representative on the local news.
In no un-certain terms he said he would have called it off prior if he was in charge and had told the OMM that too. Mainly due to the fact that Seathwaite had been underwater on Thursday and was very likely to flood again with the forecast weather.
The police seem un-able to make their minds up whether they did say cancel it or not :0)
KMC fella also said that if OMM were to change anything they should have an effective emergency plan in place.
Another good point made was how many local MR members were out as competitors and thus un-able to help. I hadn't thought of that.
In no un-certain terms he said he would have called it off prior if he was in charge and had told the OMM that too. Mainly due to the fact that Seathwaite had been underwater on Thursday and was very likely to flood again with the forecast weather.
The police seem un-able to make their minds up whether they did say cancel it or not :0)
KMC fella also said that if OMM were to change anything they should have an effective emergency plan in place.
Another good point made was how many local MR members were out as competitors and thus un-able to help. I hadn't thought of that.
In reply to MG: You wonder why people are defensive when we get stupid comments???
Erosion - fine, but at what point is their a critical mass? Again be really careful taking that line of reasoning - the logical conclusion is no one allowed on the paths/hills.
Erosion - fine, but at what point is their a critical mass? Again be really careful taking that line of reasoning - the logical conclusion is no one allowed on the paths/hills.
In reply to sutty:
Teams pay for policing in the ground. Outside the ground it is down to your generous taxpayer to foot the bill.That's why clubs have stewards nowadays and Police free games sometimes. It is also why we have support units on standby outside the grounds ready to run in if needed and specials in the ground to off set the cost of those outside the ground.
Most of the police work goes on outside of the ground.
If i was ever stationed inside the ground we used to get knocked off about 30 mins after the whistle ( if there was no trouble ) as they didn't want to keep us on because as soon as we went outside we started costing money.
Football does not earn the police anything.
Teams pay for policing in the ground. Outside the ground it is down to your generous taxpayer to foot the bill.That's why clubs have stewards nowadays and Police free games sometimes. It is also why we have support units on standby outside the grounds ready to run in if needed and specials in the ground to off set the cost of those outside the ground.
Most of the police work goes on outside of the ground.
If i was ever stationed inside the ground we used to get knocked off about 30 mins after the whistle ( if there was no trouble ) as they didn't want to keep us on because as soon as we went outside we started costing money.
Football does not earn the police anything.
In reply to sutty:
That's pretty much my point (sorry sutty, not sure whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with me).
Hopefully that'll put paid to all the cries of football pays so why doesn't fell running.
Alternatively the Police could send bills to the kin of those that caused and died in car crashes and anybody else needing to call on them...
That's pretty much my point (sorry sutty, not sure whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with me).
Hopefully that'll put paid to all the cries of football pays so why doesn't fell running.
Alternatively the Police could send bills to the kin of those that caused and died in car crashes and anybody else needing to call on them...
In reply to indalo:
Inspector Iain Clark on Border News:
"The event went ahead against police advice"
and
"Foolhardy in the extreme"
Inspector Iain Clark on Border News:
"The event went ahead against police advice"
and
"Foolhardy in the extreme"
In reply to biscuit: What about policing town centres on Fri/Sat night? Do bar owners contribute anything?
In reply to MJH:
A matter of judgement. 2500 people on one muddy, upland path in a day I think is too many.
Again be really careful taking that line of reasoning - the logical conclusion is no one allowed on the paths/hills.
So if me and my mates want to drive our challenger tanks all over the lake district fells that's fine by you? You have to have some management of the what takes place in delicate environments. Its not a case of nothing or everything being allowed.
> Erosion - fine, but at what point is their a critical mass?
A matter of judgement. 2500 people on one muddy, upland path in a day I think is too many.
Again be really careful taking that line of reasoning - the logical conclusion is no one allowed on the paths/hills.
So if me and my mates want to drive our challenger tanks all over the lake district fells that's fine by you? You have to have some management of the what takes place in delicate environments. Its not a case of nothing or everything being allowed.
In reply to MG:
> (In reply to MJH)
>
> [...]
>
> A matter of judgement. 2500 people on one muddy, upland path in a day I think is too many.
>
I thought half the point of these events was that routes didn't follow paths? >
> [...]
>
> A matter of judgement. 2500 people on one muddy, upland path in a day I think is too many.
>
In reply to indalo:
Ok. Back to the important questions. Which tents coped best? Which waterproofs were about as much use as a string vest?
Ok. Back to the important questions. Which tents coped best? Which waterproofs were about as much use as a string vest?
In reply to Papillon:
There was a move a while ago when the 24 hr drinking got brought in but i don't think anything came of it. They wanted to make licenses much more expensive to offset the cost of extended policing.
There was a move a while ago when the 24 hr drinking got brought in but i don't think anything came of it. They wanted to make licenses much more expensive to offset the cost of extended policing.
In reply to tony:
I don't know. All the competitors in this event seemed to be.
> (In reply to MG)
> [...]
> I thought half the point of these events was that routes didn't follow paths?
> [...]
> I thought half the point of these events was that routes didn't follow paths?
I don't know. All the competitors in this event seemed to be.
In reply to IainRUK:
maybe some sort of carbon tax based on how far you have travelled to compete? to go back into the local community (excluding mr slate mine)
> (In reply to Eric9Points)
>
> Well lets do that for all events. I am hugely dissapointed in people speaking out about people wanting to get out in the hills. So what there was a cost. the cost of obesity is far far higher. Do fat people get charged more?
>
>
> Well lets do that for all events. I am hugely dissapointed in people speaking out about people wanting to get out in the hills. So what there was a cost. the cost of obesity is far far higher. Do fat people get charged more?
>
maybe some sort of carbon tax based on how far you have travelled to compete? to go back into the local community (excluding mr slate mine)
In reply to Papillon:
What exactly is 'a burden on the Police' in any case ? are they not supposed to be an emergency service ?
What exactly is 'a burden on the Police' in any case ? are they not supposed to be an emergency service ?
In reply to Simon Overton:
Again, everyone is fine. Chill out.
Policemen, despite their natty uniforms, are not necessarily always right.
MMers do not all use the same path. This is elementary. Do keep up.
Again, everyone is fine. Chill out.
Policemen, despite their natty uniforms, are not necessarily always right.
MMers do not all use the same path. This is elementary. Do keep up.
In reply to fishyfishfish:
It does not matter whether the police are right or wrong.
What matters is that they are the police and have the power to prevent future events.
It does not matter whether the police are right or wrong.
What matters is that they are the police and have the power to prevent future events.
In reply to biscuit:
I knew all that, just could not find any figures apart from those given.
Something not mentioned on here is how many people get rescued doing the three peaks race. A lot more than on this event yet the press ignores that detail, much as they ignore the equivalent of 6 jumbo jets crashing every year.
I knew all that, just could not find any figures apart from those given.
Something not mentioned on here is how many people get rescued doing the three peaks race. A lot more than on this event yet the press ignores that detail, much as they ignore the equivalent of 6 jumbo jets crashing every year.
In reply to Simon Overton:
So we have a contradiction then because Jim Whatisface, organiser of the OMM says that the police did not say they should call the event off. He says the notified the organisers of the weather warning. He also said that the police do not have the experience to make such a call.
Not sure what to make of all that, but I reckon the police in a covering-their-arse-for-all-eventualities move, would say things like "Foolhardy in the extreme"
> (In reply to indalo)
>
> Inspector Iain Clark on Border News:
>
> "The event went ahead against police advice"
>
> and
>
> "Foolhardy in the extreme"
>
> Inspector Iain Clark on Border News:
>
> "The event went ahead against police advice"
>
> and
>
> "Foolhardy in the extreme"
So we have a contradiction then because Jim Whatisface, organiser of the OMM says that the police did not say they should call the event off. He says the notified the organisers of the weather warning. He also said that the police do not have the experience to make such a call.
Not sure what to make of all that, but I reckon the police in a covering-their-arse-for-all-eventualities move, would say things like "Foolhardy in the extreme"
In reply to GrahamD: I was only asking as I was curious..... wrt to fir/sat nights it seems sensible that licenced premises should pay extra through their licences, it's not really an emergency... they know there will be trouble every weekend. wrt the race.... it all seems overblown, what did the police do?
In reply to Alyson:
The Simon Barnes article mentioned earlier in the thread is here:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5019723.ece
The Simon Barnes article mentioned earlier in the thread is here:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5019723.ece
In reply to Papillon: We didn't see any police, only MR teams from all bases in cumbria, including RAF MR.
In reply to fimm: Thanks fimm, much appreciated.
how has the number of competitors varied over the years?
i'd like to know where we are on the logistics curve..
i'd like to know where we are on the logistics curve..
In reply to Simon Overton:
Love it. I'm saving the thread for this classic comment alone. Society should be structured on sensible premises such as these!
> (In reply to fishyfishfish)
>
> It does not matter whether the police are right or wrong.
>
> It does not matter whether the police are right or wrong.
Love it. I'm saving the thread for this classic comment alone. Society should be structured on sensible premises such as these!
In reply to biscuit:
The police is not a business so does not seek to make a profit, but does sell its services to external bodies. The 1986 Police Act allows both private and public bodies to purchase police services.
> (In reply to sutty)
>
> Teams pay for policing in the ground. Outside the ground it is down to your generous taxpayer to foot the bill.That's why clubs have stewards nowadays and Police free games sometimes. It is also why we have support units on standby outside the grounds ready to run in if needed and specials in the ground to off set the cost of those outside the ground.
>
This is no longer true. A recent ruling allows the police to claim for the cost of policing outside football grounds as well as within them. Not all police authorities will pursue this but some will. >
> Teams pay for policing in the ground. Outside the ground it is down to your generous taxpayer to foot the bill.That's why clubs have stewards nowadays and Police free games sometimes. It is also why we have support units on standby outside the grounds ready to run in if needed and specials in the ground to off set the cost of those outside the ground.
>
>
> Football does not earn the police anything.
> Football does not earn the police anything.
The police is not a business so does not seek to make a profit, but does sell its services to external bodies. The 1986 Police Act allows both private and public bodies to purchase police services.
In reply to biscuit:
I'm repeating myself a bit but there are also police teams of warranted officers funded by business groups. To quote one chief supt,
'If they (the businesses in the town centre) want the police to focus on crime affecting them, then they must pay.'
> (In reply to Papillon)
>
> There was a move a while ago when the 24 hr drinking got brought in but i don't think anything came of it. They wanted to make licenses much more expensive to offset the cost of extended policing.
>
> There was a move a while ago when the 24 hr drinking got brought in but i don't think anything came of it. They wanted to make licenses much more expensive to offset the cost of extended policing.
I'm repeating myself a bit but there are also police teams of warranted officers funded by business groups. To quote one chief supt,
'If they (the businesses in the town centre) want the police to focus on crime affecting them, then they must pay.'
In reply to Mike Highbury:
Apologies, 1996 Police act
> The police is not a business so does not seek to make a profit, but does sell its services to external bodies. The 1986 Police Act allows both private and public bodies to purchase police services.
Apologies, 1996 Police act
In reply to MG: I'm bring defensive because the sport I love has been badly affected recently. This year I travelled 6 hrs for a race that was shortened to a 16 minute sprint because of some mild rain. A joke. Caused by people getting to worried about all this sort of rubbish.
Another race shortened because of cloud and runners couldn't see where they were going. rubbish.
I agree re erosion by OMM. See my comment re Snowdonia. Why don't you think it's held here any more?
I spoke with one of the organisers for Snowdonia Marathon yesterday, asked him did they consider cancelling. He said they did but thought 500 hadn't turned up, 1200 did. They surmised that 1200 knew the forecast and opted to run, and 500 knew the forecast and didn't want to run, therefore everyone who started knew what they were facing. Good view.
Another race shortened because of cloud and runners couldn't see where they were going. rubbish.
I agree re erosion by OMM. See my comment re Snowdonia. Why don't you think it's held here any more?
I spoke with one of the organisers for Snowdonia Marathon yesterday, asked him did they consider cancelling. He said they did but thought 500 hadn't turned up, 1200 did. They surmised that 1200 knew the forecast and opted to run, and 500 knew the forecast and didn't want to run, therefore everyone who started knew what they were facing. Good view.
In reply to Jon Dittman: Do people realise that the organiser of EVERY road race in the country is advised that 'the police do not advise holding an event on public roads'. Advising that an event is not held is standard from the police.
In reply to MG:
Except this reveals your lack of knowledge of MMs - different courses and different routes for all. There is no way that you would get 2500 over the same path (or even a high percentage of that).
So what is acceptable then...and what makes your version of acceptable more valid than someone else's?
> (In reply to MJH)
>
> [...]
>
> A matter of judgement. 2500 people on one muddy, upland path in a day I think is too many.
>
> [...]
>
> A matter of judgement. 2500 people on one muddy, upland path in a day I think is too many.
Except this reveals your lack of knowledge of MMs - different courses and different routes for all. There is no way that you would get 2500 over the same path (or even a high percentage of that).
> So if me and my mates want to drive our challenger tanks all over the lake district fells that's fine by you? You have to have some management of the what takes place in delicate environments. Its not a case of nothing or everything being allowed.
So what is acceptable then...and what makes your version of acceptable more valid than someone else's?
In reply to MG:
Of course there is management. Areas want big events held there, it brings in money, routes choice will no doubt be made with the consultation of the NPA's and land owners.
> (In reply to MJH)
>
> [...]
>
> You have to have some management of the what takes place in delicate environments. Its not a case of nothing or everything being allowed.
>
> [...]
>
> You have to have some management of the what takes place in delicate environments. Its not a case of nothing or everything being allowed.
Of course there is management. Areas want big events held there, it brings in money, routes choice will no doubt be made with the consultation of the NPA's and land owners.
In reply to IainRUK:
I was going to say that .... back in the days when I was sometimes involved in organising demonstrations, the police _always_ asked us not to. That's normal.
> Advising that an event is not held is standard from the police.
I was going to say that .... back in the days when I was sometimes involved in organising demonstrations, the police _always_ asked us not to. That's normal.
In reply to Carolyn:
But warmer
> Ah, just be glad Willie's new barn at Gatesgarth wasn't quite finished and so wasn't full of livestock......it'd have been pretty crowded then!
>
>
>
>
But warmer
In reply to fimm:
Eek - now I've agreed wholeheartedly with editorials in both the Times and the Telegraph. I feel dirty.
Eek - now I've agreed wholeheartedly with editorials in both the Times and the Telegraph. I feel dirty.
In reply to IainRUK:
I know. I was disagreeing MJH who seemed think for only options were a free- for-all or no one on the hills.
> (In reply to MG)
> [...]
>
> Of course there is management. Areas want big events held there, it brings in money, routes choice will no doubt be made with the consultation of the NPA's and land owners.
> [...]
>
> Of course there is management. Areas want big events held there, it brings in money, routes choice will no doubt be made with the consultation of the NPA's and land owners.
I know. I was disagreeing MJH who seemed think for only options were a free- for-all or no one on the hills.
In reply to iain roberto:
I saw police on sunday when retrieving our car. A squad car with sgt in it and a transit van with two police officers in it arriving just ahead of us - about 13:00 ish. The transit was stopping cars going down to the event centre from seatoller as it was a narrow road.
However , there was only 1 car per 10 mins coming out so no porblem there. Touch of the stable door.
We were with people who know the Cockermouth teams and they said many of them were competeing so they hardly likely to condem the start!
I saw police on sunday when retrieving our car. A squad car with sgt in it and a transit van with two police officers in it arriving just ahead of us - about 13:00 ish. The transit was stopping cars going down to the event centre from seatoller as it was a narrow road.
However , there was only 1 car per 10 mins coming out so no porblem there. Touch of the stable door.
We were with people who know the Cockermouth teams and they said many of them were competeing so they hardly likely to condem the start!
In reply to Al Evans:
In reply to Carolyn:
But warmer
Willie's warmer...
<snigger>
In reply to Carolyn:
> Ah, just be glad Willie's new barn at Gatesgarth wasn't quite finished and so wasn't full of livestock......it'd have been pretty crowded then!
>
>
>
>
But warmer
Willie's warmer...
<snigger>
In reply to Alyson:
I'm saving the thread for this classic comment alone..
> (In reply to Simon Overton)
> [...]
>
> Love it. I'm saving the thread for this classic comment alone. Society should be structured on sensible premises such as these!
> [...]
>
> Love it. I'm saving the thread for this classic comment alone. Society should be structured on sensible premises such as these!
I'm saving the thread for this classic comment alone..
In reply to IainRUK:
Iain the damage has been done to the sport. The organisers should have considerd this before the start. You hold a big event in England's most popular great outdoor venue and things turn to shite, people are going to get to know very quickly. You can't even fart in a bottle in the lakes without someone complaining. Birdwatchers complain about climbers, fishermen about kayakers and so on. More people are using the outdoors to satisfy their own needs. It seems that more and more large scale events are taking place each year. This years Merida biking event that churned up the fells locally to us, but nobody cared too much about that, because it's not a popular area, it didn't rain and it wasn't windy and nobody could have died. If the omm had gone ahead in a less popular mountain area would it have even made the news under the same circumstances? I doubt it. I think tomorrow people will have forgotten and moved on. Don't worry.
> (In reply to MG) I'm bring defensive because the sport I love has been badly affected recently. This year I travelled 6 hrs for a race that was shortened to a 16 minute sprint because of some mild rain. A joke. Caused by people getting to worried about all this sort of rubbish.
>
> Another race shortened because of cloud and runners couldn't see where they were going. rubbish.
>
> I agree re erosion by OMM. See my comment re Snowdonia. Why don't you think it's held here any more?
>
> I spoke with one of the organisers for Snowdonia Marathon yesterday, asked him did they consider cancelling. He said they did but thought 500 hadn't turned up, 1200 did. They surmised that 1200 knew the forecast and opted to run, and 500 knew the forecast and didn't want to run, therefore everyone who started knew what they were facing. Good view.
>
> Another race shortened because of cloud and runners couldn't see where they were going. rubbish.
>
> I agree re erosion by OMM. See my comment re Snowdonia. Why don't you think it's held here any more?
>
> I spoke with one of the organisers for Snowdonia Marathon yesterday, asked him did they consider cancelling. He said they did but thought 500 hadn't turned up, 1200 did. They surmised that 1200 knew the forecast and opted to run, and 500 knew the forecast and didn't want to run, therefore everyone who started knew what they were facing. Good view.
Iain the damage has been done to the sport. The organisers should have considerd this before the start. You hold a big event in England's most popular great outdoor venue and things turn to shite, people are going to get to know very quickly. You can't even fart in a bottle in the lakes without someone complaining. Birdwatchers complain about climbers, fishermen about kayakers and so on. More people are using the outdoors to satisfy their own needs. It seems that more and more large scale events are taking place each year. This years Merida biking event that churned up the fells locally to us, but nobody cared too much about that, because it's not a popular area, it didn't rain and it wasn't windy and nobody could have died. If the omm had gone ahead in a less popular mountain area would it have even made the news under the same circumstances? I doubt it. I think tomorrow people will have forgotten and moved on. Don't worry.
In reply to Alyson:
you miss the point. The point is not over whether it is morally right for truth to be an objective point of reference for policing but that de facto it does not matter given the fact that in these cirumstances they are the "authority" and the organisers are not.
you miss the point. The point is not over whether it is morally right for truth to be an objective point of reference for policing but that de facto it does not matter given the fact that in these cirumstances they are the "authority" and the organisers are not.
In reply to iain roberto: I know, but the Lakes will always draw these events back because it is very much (IMO) the spiritual home of fell running. I love racing there, coming back through the blands farm, seeing Joss on the fells, I don't know but there is something special about fell running in the lakes, more so than around here.
In reply to IainRUK: I remember one particularly bad day in a blizzard on the Kentmere round, it was so bad I decided to stick with Andrea because it was so bad. The first dozen or so runners in were all disqualified for not checking the first checkpoint. We'd all got there before the marshall, we confirmed to each other we were in the right spot and carried on. Andrea would easily have won the ladies race, it was a championship race too and only about 50% 0f the runners finished, but that still wrankles after all these years.
In reply to Simon Overton:
err you have just been quoting them to back you arguements. Be Consistent!!!
If the police are wrong then surely they have no grounds on which to oppose something.
> (In reply to fishyfishfish)
>
> It does not matter whether the police are right or wrong.
>
> It does not matter whether the police are right or wrong.
err you have just been quoting them to back you arguements. Be Consistent!!!
If the police are wrong then surely they have no grounds on which to oppose something.
In reply to MG: I pointed out you were starting from a false premise ie that 2500 runners over one path which answers your point about management - that was one of the reasons that score classes were introduced precisely to reduce erosion.
Then I said where do you draw the line at acceptability of erosion.
Then I said where do you draw the line at acceptability of erosion.
In reply to Simon Overton:
In need of info here: are you right that the police can just ban an event like this if they want? I didn't think they had the power to do that. They certainly didn't used to be able to, but have I missed the introduction of some draconian new powers???
In need of info here: are you right that the police can just ban an event like this if they want? I didn't think they had the power to do that. They certainly didn't used to be able to, but have I missed the introduction of some draconian new powers???
In reply to SFM:
grrrrrr!!- the whole strand of what I have said has not been voicing any opinion of mine. Instead I have tried to present what other people have said and what I saw or others saw. That is pretty consistent.
My only opinion is that the authorities will see the weekend as a screw up by the organisers and stop the event. Do you think I really want to see legislation spoil a sport I used to love and in which friends take great delight????
grrrrrr!!- the whole strand of what I have said has not been voicing any opinion of mine. Instead I have tried to present what other people have said and what I saw or others saw. That is pretty consistent.
My only opinion is that the authorities will see the weekend as a screw up by the organisers and stop the event. Do you think I really want to see legislation spoil a sport I used to love and in which friends take great delight????
In reply to Simon Overton:
Of course it matters if they are then going round saying that they asked the organisers not to run the event. Incidentally Mike Parsons, one of the organisers of the OMM (and former CEO? of Karrimor), disputes that: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7692727.stm
There is a good post on the OMM forum which asks what expertise the Police have anyway to judge whether such an event should go ahead.
Still so much crucial information that we just don't know the answer to, but as ever the nay sayers are quite happy to jump on a band wagon and condemn without evidence or knowledge.
> (In reply to fishyfishfish)
>
> It does not matter whether the police are right or wrong.
>
> It does not matter whether the police are right or wrong.
Of course it matters if they are then going round saying that they asked the organisers not to run the event. Incidentally Mike Parsons, one of the organisers of the OMM (and former CEO? of Karrimor), disputes that: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7692727.stm
There is a good post on the OMM forum which asks what expertise the Police have anyway to judge whether such an event should go ahead.
Still so much crucial information that we just don't know the answer to, but as ever the nay sayers are quite happy to jump on a band wagon and condemn without evidence or knowledge.
In reply to MJH: All the classes take different routes, I can only remember being on paths 50% of the time max when I was doing them. Except perhaps at the start fewer than 500 of the 2500 will be following the same route.
In reply to MJH:
and then you sadi "Again be really careful taking that line of reasoning - the logical conclusion is no one allowed on the paths/hills."
Meaning you think it illogical to set down any limits, which is nonsense.
>
> Then I said where do you draw the line at acceptability of erosion.
> Then I said where do you draw the line at acceptability of erosion.
and then you sadi "Again be really careful taking that line of reasoning - the logical conclusion is no one allowed on the paths/hills."
Meaning you think it illogical to set down any limits, which is nonsense.
In reply to Simon Overton:
only if we let them :O)
> (In reply to SFM)
>
>
>
> My only opinion is that the authorities will see the weekend as a screw up by the organisers and stop the event. Do you think I really want to see legislation spoil a sport I used to love and in which friends take great delight????
> My only opinion is that the authorities will see the weekend as a screw up by the organisers and stop the event. Do you think I really want to see legislation spoil a sport I used to love and in which friends take great delight????
only if we let them :O)
In reply to Al Evans:
I don't know the exact numbers but I was walking "against the flow" on High St and passed at least several hundred competitors all on the main path which was getting quite cut up. It is a real problem that in this instance at least had not been well handled.
> (In reply to MJH) All the classes take different routes, I can only remember being on paths 50% of the time max when I was doing them. Except perhaps at the start fewer than 500 of the 2500 will be following the same route.
I don't know the exact numbers but I was walking "against the flow" on High St and passed at least several hundred competitors all on the main path which was getting quite cut up. It is a real problem that in this instance at least had not been well handled.
In reply to Simon Overton:
Hmmm, unless you're totally sure that you're right they can ban it, I doubt you are right.
Because:
a) That would be an absolutely huge infringement of civil liberties that had passed me by, and I doubt I'm quite that sleepy (I may be wrong there....!) and
b) If they could've banned it, surely they would've????
I think they can only ban stuff when they fear for public order... so they can stop the racists demonstrating in the heart of Bradford, say, but they can't stop you from running up a mountain in the rain.
Hmmm, unless you're totally sure that you're right they can ban it, I doubt you are right.
Because:
a) That would be an absolutely huge infringement of civil liberties that had passed me by, and I doubt I'm quite that sleepy (I may be wrong there....!) and
b) If they could've banned it, surely they would've????
I think they can only ban stuff when they fear for public order... so they can stop the racists demonstrating in the heart of Bradford, say, but they can't stop you from running up a mountain in the rain.
In reply to Simon Overton:
Have you read back on what you wrote last night?? No? Here ya go then...(and just the first couple I could be bothered to cut and paste...)
Certainly looks like *your* opinion...
by - Simon Overton on - 13:49 Sun
In reply to Spready:
according to 2 friends who finished in the top ten organisers PREVENTED people from checking in via their tags.
THE organisers have failed to appear before cameras and latest news is can't be contacted. Where were they when some kind of leadership was required???
I have just got back from Borrowdale having managed to get through to take two friends to their cars. Obviously things have improved but it is a complete mess down there. The lack of organisation is astounding. Cars that were flooded out are still there and the field where people were parked is thick with mud.
NO ORGANISATION WHATSOEVER!!!!! to marshall the retrieval of cars bar two farmers who have kindly volunteered their own time to help.
helicopters remain very busy in the valley.
The school now seems quiet which is just as well given it flooded last week.
The whole cost of this fiasco should be billed directly to the organisers.
by - Simon Overton on - 13:53 Sun
In reply to Simon Overton:
Also very clear when the police knocked on our door last night that the emergency services in workington had no idea what people were doing up in the mountains. They thought it was all crazy walkers got lost.
Complete shambles, no contingency plan- all for pure profit.
by - Simon Overton on - 13:59 Sun
In reply to Simon Overton:
and cars that did start later breaking down blocking the road out of borrowdale. Road blocked with AA recovery trucks.
Any organisers about making sure everything goes smoothly- no!!!
Although when my friends did get to hand their tags in they did get a voucher for Wilfs- oh joy.
What about laying straw to help vehicles get out of the field???
Frieze OMM assets using anti-terror legislation and give the OMM money to the RAF and emergency services. Perhaps they might organise it in future to raise much needed funds??? They'd do a much better job!!
by - Simon Overton on - 14:13 Sun
In reply to indalo:
You mean the facts on the ground- I was there, I do live locally.
Bacon butty time.
I do expect to be flamed for my little rant, but I have done my best to describe what I actually saw and I have also discussed this with two runners who finished in the "top ten". I'll look back later tonight. It will be amusing to read the opinions of people who weren't actually there.
> (In reply to SFM)
>
> grrrrrr!!- the whole strand of what I have said has not been voicing any opinion of mine. Instead I have tried to present what other people have said and what I saw or others saw. That is pretty consistent.
>
????>
> grrrrrr!!- the whole strand of what I have said has not been voicing any opinion of mine. Instead I have tried to present what other people have said and what I saw or others saw. That is pretty consistent.
>
Have you read back on what you wrote last night?? No? Here ya go then...(and just the first couple I could be bothered to cut and paste...)
Certainly looks like *your* opinion...
by - Simon Overton on - 13:49 Sun
In reply to Spready:
according to 2 friends who finished in the top ten organisers PREVENTED people from checking in via their tags.
THE organisers have failed to appear before cameras and latest news is can't be contacted. Where were they when some kind of leadership was required???
I have just got back from Borrowdale having managed to get through to take two friends to their cars. Obviously things have improved but it is a complete mess down there. The lack of organisation is astounding. Cars that were flooded out are still there and the field where people were parked is thick with mud.
NO ORGANISATION WHATSOEVER!!!!! to marshall the retrieval of cars bar two farmers who have kindly volunteered their own time to help.
helicopters remain very busy in the valley.
The school now seems quiet which is just as well given it flooded last week.
The whole cost of this fiasco should be billed directly to the organisers.
by - Simon Overton on - 13:53 Sun
In reply to Simon Overton:
Also very clear when the police knocked on our door last night that the emergency services in workington had no idea what people were doing up in the mountains. They thought it was all crazy walkers got lost.
Complete shambles, no contingency plan- all for pure profit.
by - Simon Overton on - 13:59 Sun
In reply to Simon Overton:
and cars that did start later breaking down blocking the road out of borrowdale. Road blocked with AA recovery trucks.
Any organisers about making sure everything goes smoothly- no!!!
Although when my friends did get to hand their tags in they did get a voucher for Wilfs- oh joy.
What about laying straw to help vehicles get out of the field???
Frieze OMM assets using anti-terror legislation and give the OMM money to the RAF and emergency services. Perhaps they might organise it in future to raise much needed funds??? They'd do a much better job!!
by - Simon Overton on - 14:13 Sun
In reply to indalo:
You mean the facts on the ground- I was there, I do live locally.
Bacon butty time.
I do expect to be flamed for my little rant, but I have done my best to describe what I actually saw and I have also discussed this with two runners who finished in the "top ten". I'll look back later tonight. It will be amusing to read the opinions of people who weren't actually there.
In reply to gingerkate:
The criminal justice act (formerly the criminal justice bill) to name a pretty powerfull piece of legislaton that allows the police to prevent people gathering.
I am sure there are a few in the new so called anti terror laws as well....
> In need of info here: are you right that the police can just ban an event like this if they want? I didn't think they had the power to do that. They certainly didn't used to be able to, but have I missed the introduction of some draconian new powers???
The criminal justice act (formerly the criminal justice bill) to name a pretty powerfull piece of legislaton that allows the police to prevent people gathering.
I am sure there are a few in the new so called anti terror laws as well....
In reply to gingerkate:
I suspect if the event is considered a danger to public health. There are ways. I'm not a lawyer. Ask a lawyer.
There is also the risk of byelaw legislation, parish council involvement. Lots of ways to stop an event. Which is not what we want.
I suspect if the event is considered a danger to public health. There are ways. I'm not a lawyer. Ask a lawyer.
There is also the risk of byelaw legislation, parish council involvement. Lots of ways to stop an event. Which is not what we want.
In reply to muppetfilter:
But they're not gathering, they're dispersing up a mountain?
But they're not gathering, they're dispersing up a mountain?
In reply to Bingly Bong:
lol- you obviously have more time than me. Do think the organisers should be billed. Do think it was a fiasco.
lol- you obviously have more time than me. Do think the organisers should be billed. Do think it was a fiasco.
In reply to gingerkate: How i laugh at the draconian infringement of our civil liberties......
In reply to Simon Overton: Funnily enough, no I don't. It literally took 2 mins to find, cut and paste those messages (a lot less time than you have spent writing them)
In reply to Simon Overton:
Based on what - inaccurate media reporting and speculation?
> (In reply to Bingly Bong)
>
> Do think the organisers should be billed. Do think it was a fiasco.
>
> Do think the organisers should be billed. Do think it was a fiasco.
Based on what - inaccurate media reporting and speculation?
In reply to
I have competed in many kimm, lamm, etc events. The only thing about this years event that rankles me is that OMM is a private, profit making venture, albeit run by enthusiasts, it relies on volunteers (MRT) to pick up the pieces when things go wrong.
There is big money involved in these events nowadays, just look at the entry fees, pushing £100 a team, that's some turn over and more than likely some profit. Volunteers were out there risking their necks to ensure the safety of the competitors. I do not know what, if any sum is donated to the mrts by the omm organisers. I hope it is a large amount
I have competed in many kimm, lamm, etc events. The only thing about this years event that rankles me is that OMM is a private, profit making venture, albeit run by enthusiasts, it relies on volunteers (MRT) to pick up the pieces when things go wrong.
There is big money involved in these events nowadays, just look at the entry fees, pushing £100 a team, that's some turn over and more than likely some profit. Volunteers were out there risking their necks to ensure the safety of the competitors. I do not know what, if any sum is donated to the mrts by the omm organisers. I hope it is a large amount
In reply to indalo: Is the OMM the same as what used to be the Karrimor? Or is it a different thing? I used to do the Karrimor. I remember the 1988 one was pretty harsh. Nowt like this though. Harsh enough for me to say bugger it and drop out on the Sunday though. I do think that the people who enter these events are generally equipped and experienced enough to be able to cope with wind and rain, even when it's extreme, as here, or to make a sensible decision to drop out when things are getting too much. The media portrayal of gung-ho competitors throwing themselves into watery hell, and the witless organisers having no idea of the reality, is outrageous really. It's the sort of baying hysteria that used to crop up whenever there was a caving fatality in a flooding pot somewhere.
In reply to BrianT: yeah, OMM = KIMM
There is this quote
Mr Carradice [Wasdale Mountain Rescue Team leader] said of the decision to run the OMM: “I think the forecast was pretty dire. With the benefit of hindsight, it doesn’t look like the best decision to go ahead with the event.”
from here:
http://www.grough.co.uk/view/2008/10/25/hundreds-stranded-as-floods-hit-mou...
I have no idea if that is a reliable site or not.
Mr Carradice [Wasdale Mountain Rescue Team leader] said of the decision to run the OMM: “I think the forecast was pretty dire. With the benefit of hindsight, it doesn’t look like the best decision to go ahead with the event.”
from here:
http://www.grough.co.uk/view/2008/10/25/hundreds-stranded-as-floods-hit-mou...
I have no idea if that is a reliable site or not.
In reply to Jon Dittman:
I heard the You and Yours interview and he did seem to get slightly ambushed. By the end the interviewer was implying that the fact that everyone was so disappointingly well-equipped was a matter of luck. 'But what would have happened if they hadn't been?' Unfortunately, he wasn't really given a chance to give the obvious reply that they simply wouldn't have been allowed to take part, and that luck had nothing to do with it.
> I have just heard Mike Whatsisface, organiser of the OMM on the radio twice in the last 15 minutes. Once on the Jeremy Vine show and then a few minutes later on You and Yours on Radio 4. Alas, the softly spoken Lancastrian didn't come across very well against hard edged media types who interviewed him.
I heard the You and Yours interview and he did seem to get slightly ambushed. By the end the interviewer was implying that the fact that everyone was so disappointingly well-equipped was a matter of luck. 'But what would have happened if they hadn't been?' Unfortunately, he wasn't really given a chance to give the obvious reply that they simply wouldn't have been allowed to take part, and that luck had nothing to do with it.
In reply to 3leggeddog:
Are you sure that is right? Putting on this sort of event can't be cheap.
It has long relied on volunteers to marshal the race - hard to believe that many people give their free time for someone else to make profit.
> In reply to
>
> I have competed in many kimm, lamm, etc events. The only thing about this years event that rankles me is that OMM is a private, profit making venture, albeit run by enthusiasts, it relies on volunteers (MRT) to pick up the pieces when things go wrong.
>
> I have competed in many kimm, lamm, etc events. The only thing about this years event that rankles me is that OMM is a private, profit making venture, albeit run by enthusiasts, it relies on volunteers (MRT) to pick up the pieces when things go wrong.
Are you sure that is right? Putting on this sort of event can't be cheap.
It has long relied on volunteers to marshal the race - hard to believe that many people give their free time for someone else to make profit.
In reply to fimm: with the benefit of hindsight i.e. he doesnt say that he wouldnt have started the race if he was in charge. Thats a long way form "MRT condemns OMM organisers"
In reply to ceri:
Correct.
I just posted it as it is an actual quote from an actual Mountain Rescue person, and such quotes have been a bit thin on the ground so far (perhaps because they have better things to do than speak to the media, I don't know).
Correct.
I just posted it as it is an actual quote from an actual Mountain Rescue person, and such quotes have been a bit thin on the ground so far (perhaps because they have better things to do than speak to the media, I don't know).
In reply to Dave Garnett:
available online...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/items/03/2008_44_mon.shtml
> (In reply to Jon Dittman)
> [...]
>
> I heard the You and Yours interview
> [...]
>
> I heard the You and Yours interview
available online...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/items/03/2008_44_mon.shtml
This has been reported on the OMM forum as being part of the Keswick MRT press release:
First Police Call at 12.27pm - 2 People with possible head and leg injuries.
MRT first call came in before midday - 2 casualties with Hypothermia above Rigg Head.
As they started to repond reports of 3 more in Borrowdale, Gillercombe and Sty-Head. 2 of which had suspected broken legs and third with head injuries.
MRT then calls in more teams to assist.
Quote "During the day a total of 11 casualties were rescued; 2 with suspected fractured ankles, 6 with suspected hypothermia and 2 with facial injuries." (Maths?) 5 Casualties were rescued in total by the RAF helicopter.
Quote "Fortunately all the competitors in the event were experienced mountaineers and were all carrying sufficient food and equipment for an overnight camp so were able to shelter from the elements until rescued"
Quote "Despite experiencing the extreme weather earlier in the week at Seathwaite, the event organisers chose to continue with the event on the basis of the experience of the competitors, but despite local advice"
The reporter is still trying to find who the 'local advice' was and what they actually said.
First Police Call at 12.27pm - 2 People with possible head and leg injuries.
MRT first call came in before midday - 2 casualties with Hypothermia above Rigg Head.
As they started to repond reports of 3 more in Borrowdale, Gillercombe and Sty-Head. 2 of which had suspected broken legs and third with head injuries.
MRT then calls in more teams to assist.
Quote "During the day a total of 11 casualties were rescued; 2 with suspected fractured ankles, 6 with suspected hypothermia and 2 with facial injuries." (Maths?) 5 Casualties were rescued in total by the RAF helicopter.
Quote "Fortunately all the competitors in the event were experienced mountaineers and were all carrying sufficient food and equipment for an overnight camp so were able to shelter from the elements until rescued"
Quote "Despite experiencing the extreme weather earlier in the week at Seathwaite, the event organisers chose to continue with the event on the basis of the experience of the competitors, but despite local advice"
The reporter is still trying to find who the 'local advice' was and what they actually said.
How about this one? On Radio Cumbria news, the Director of Public Health for Cumbria, Mr John Ashton has suggested that the weather report should carry a legal liability, on the part of the end-user. ie, you'll be legally liable to pay the full costs of a rescue, should u go out when the weather is 'unsuitable'.
In reply to MJH:
THANK GOD NO ONE DIED
Is the reasoned discussion on the event, courtesy of the News and Star. Lots of quotes from the readership about 'Fell running is a daft and dangerous thing to do, but in this weather' plus an editorial about how those who have dared to say it's been all blown out of proportion should hang their heads in shame...
I particularly enjoyed the column by noted 'Outdoors Expert' Mark Weir of Honister Slate Mine. Apparently the event "Nearly turned the Lake District into a morgue". Quite what Saint Mark of Honister knows about the outdoors, (apart from how to charge people £25 quid to walk up a path) is possibly debatable, but you'll all be pleased to know this can all be prevented by having a 'dedicated Mountain Centre' to teach competitors about how to survive on the fells. (I suspect Honister might be a handy location).
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/
> (In reply to Simon Overton)
> [...]
>
> Still so much crucial information that we just don't know the answer to, but as ever the nay sayers are quite happy to jump on a band wagon and condemn without evidence or knowledge.
> [...]
>
> Still so much crucial information that we just don't know the answer to, but as ever the nay sayers are quite happy to jump on a band wagon and condemn without evidence or knowledge.
THANK GOD NO ONE DIED
Is the reasoned discussion on the event, courtesy of the News and Star. Lots of quotes from the readership about 'Fell running is a daft and dangerous thing to do, but in this weather' plus an editorial about how those who have dared to say it's been all blown out of proportion should hang their heads in shame...
I particularly enjoyed the column by noted 'Outdoors Expert' Mark Weir of Honister Slate Mine. Apparently the event "Nearly turned the Lake District into a morgue". Quite what Saint Mark of Honister knows about the outdoors, (apart from how to charge people £25 quid to walk up a path) is possibly debatable, but you'll all be pleased to know this can all be prevented by having a 'dedicated Mountain Centre' to teach competitors about how to survive on the fells. (I suspect Honister might be a handy location).
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/
In reply to sheep:
An excellent idea. By my reckoning that should make, ummm, 362.5 days a year when it's 'unsafe' to venture onto the fells.
> How about this one? On Radio Cumbria news, the Director of Public Health for Cumbria, Mr John Ashton has suggested that the weather report should carry a legal liability, on the part of the end-user. ie, you'll be legally liable to pay the full costs of a rescue, should u go out when the weather is 'unsuitable'.
An excellent idea. By my reckoning that should make, ummm, 362.5 days a year when it's 'unsafe' to venture onto the fells.
In reply to IainRUK:
There's a lot of respect and admiration for fell runners in the lakes and I don't think this will diminish that, Joss Naylor would certainly make the grade as one of the top 5 greatest Cumbrians.
I'm not sure if anyone could genuinely complain about a once a year event that is in the quiter season.
The real complaint I have is that "if" the initial reports had been accurate, then the organisers look from where I am to have been unprepared to manage the crisis, and they need learn some pretty serious lessons before the next OMM.
There's a lot of respect and admiration for fell runners in the lakes and I don't think this will diminish that, Joss Naylor would certainly make the grade as one of the top 5 greatest Cumbrians.
I'm not sure if anyone could genuinely complain about a once a year event that is in the quiter season.
The real complaint I have is that "if" the initial reports had been accurate, then the organisers look from where I am to have been unprepared to manage the crisis, and they need learn some pretty serious lessons before the next OMM.
In reply to Ridge:
His comment from Thursday when the coaches got stuck, he does like his hyperbole;
Mr Weir usually flies to and from his business in a helicopter but left it at home because of the atrocious weather and flying conditions.
He added: "The only way to get to Honister Slate Mine right now is by speedboat. We are now officially an island at the top of a mountain, but it'll be gone tomorrow, I'm sure.
His comment from Thursday when the coaches got stuck, he does like his hyperbole;
Mr Weir usually flies to and from his business in a helicopter but left it at home because of the atrocious weather and flying conditions.
He added: "The only way to get to Honister Slate Mine right now is by speedboat. We are now officially an island at the top of a mountain, but it'll be gone tomorrow, I'm sure.
In reply to muppetfilter:
I don't think it is quite intended for stopping people gathering for a private sporting event. It stops people gathering for demonstrations etc. where people may cause trouble or get up to no good - or if it bothers Tony Blair's beauty sleep.
I was wondering about the police involvement in this. How are they able to say realistically whether the event should go ahead ? Are they experts in weather/mountains etc ? Surely they would just be guided by the MR ? If they said go ahead and it turned out bad would people be saying " you said it would be safe !"
> (In reply to gingerkate)
>
> [...]
>
> The criminal justice act (formerly the criminal justice bill) to name a pretty powerfull piece of legislaton that allows the police to prevent people gathering.
> I am sure there are a few in the new so called anti terror laws as well....
>
> [...]
>
> The criminal justice act (formerly the criminal justice bill) to name a pretty powerfull piece of legislaton that allows the police to prevent people gathering.
> I am sure there are a few in the new so called anti terror laws as well....
I don't think it is quite intended for stopping people gathering for a private sporting event. It stops people gathering for demonstrations etc. where people may cause trouble or get up to no good - or if it bothers Tony Blair's beauty sleep.
I was wondering about the police involvement in this. How are they able to say realistically whether the event should go ahead ? Are they experts in weather/mountains etc ? Surely they would just be guided by the MR ? If they said go ahead and it turned out bad would people be saying " you said it would be safe !"
In reply to sutty:
He does that. I quite respect what he's done at Honister, and the boost it gives to tourism in the area, but he does come across as a bit of an arse...
> (In reply to Ridge)
>
> he does like his hyperbole
>
> he does like his hyperbole
He does that. I quite respect what he's done at Honister, and the boost it gives to tourism in the area, but he does come across as a bit of an arse...
In reply to Ridge:
i would describe him as direct and single minded ;0)
Have met him a few times and he came across as perfectly OK.
Heard lots of stories though and is obviously a shameless self publicist - or successful businessman as they are also called.
i would describe him as direct and single minded ;0)
Have met him a few times and he came across as perfectly OK.
Heard lots of stories though and is obviously a shameless self publicist - or successful businessman as they are also called.
In reply to biscuit: There seems to be somewhat of a backlash building. I wonder if he might not have covered himself in glory this weekend. (That'll be the "blame" aspect of the media thing kicking in.)
In reply to indalo:
All these media types wanting to know who was going to foot the bill for the rescue should instead be asking themselves how much fat people cost our country every year. Or smokers. Bet there were few fat smokers on the hills this weekend. If you see my point.
Basically, its only the lakes, and the omm is full of people who are quite able to cope in the lake district. Julia f*cking Bradbury might tell the world that in wet weather the lakes is a dangerous place ra ra ra but come on, anyone with a bit of common sense and fitness could look after themselves in them there hills.
Most people are numpties who think the lake district is a wild and dangerous place and they cost the mrt far far more every year by getting lost, panicking and being pathetic than this omm would have.
This whole thing has been ridiculous. The weather looked mental, the event looked mint and its only made me want to enter next year even more.
All these media types wanting to know who was going to foot the bill for the rescue should instead be asking themselves how much fat people cost our country every year. Or smokers. Bet there were few fat smokers on the hills this weekend. If you see my point.
Basically, its only the lakes, and the omm is full of people who are quite able to cope in the lake district. Julia f*cking Bradbury might tell the world that in wet weather the lakes is a dangerous place ra ra ra but come on, anyone with a bit of common sense and fitness could look after themselves in them there hills.
Most people are numpties who think the lake district is a wild and dangerous place and they cost the mrt far far more every year by getting lost, panicking and being pathetic than this omm would have.
This whole thing has been ridiculous. The weather looked mental, the event looked mint and its only made me want to enter next year even more.
In reply to MG and Mr Overton (who I can't be arsed quoting):
Read this;
http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/racereport.php?page_action=rep&race_id=6...
> This fiasco has rather highlighted the point that if 1000s of people get in to trouble together it puts other people at risk
Read this;
http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/racereport.php?page_action=rep&race_id=6...
Note in particular the bottom of page 2;
"There was also a major rescue undertaken by the Kendal team who sent me this comment;
Whilst the media were hyping up the search for missing people that never was in the Borrowdale/Honister/Gatesgarth area, across the way in Langdale the real search was on for three genuine missing, under equipped walkers in upper Oxendale/Red Tarn area. Both Langdale, Ambleside & Kendal MRT's were involved all night. The walkers were found by a search dog at about 3am cut off by a raging torrent in Crinkle Ghyll, tired, cold, wet and frightened. It took Kendal MRT's full swift water rescue squad to get to them and bring them to safety in the dark. When we got home and reported it to the media they were not interested! Your "missing" 1700 was a much better story than one of Kendal MRT's most technical rescues for a long time. Long Live The OMM!
P.S. The Police had asked us to bring our Land Rovers to Honister to help with the evacuation to the sheep and wool centre but after talking with Keswick MRT we decided to stay at home where we were really needed!"
"There was also a major rescue undertaken by the Kendal team who sent me this comment;
Whilst the media were hyping up the search for missing people that never was in the Borrowdale/Honister/Gatesgarth area, across the way in Langdale the real search was on for three genuine missing, under equipped walkers in upper Oxendale/Red Tarn area. Both Langdale, Ambleside & Kendal MRT's were involved all night. The walkers were found by a search dog at about 3am cut off by a raging torrent in Crinkle Ghyll, tired, cold, wet and frightened. It took Kendal MRT's full swift water rescue squad to get to them and bring them to safety in the dark. When we got home and reported it to the media they were not interested! Your "missing" 1700 was a much better story than one of Kendal MRT's most technical rescues for a long time. Long Live The OMM!
P.S. The Police had asked us to bring our Land Rovers to Honister to help with the evacuation to the sheep and wool centre but after talking with Keswick MRT we decided to stay at home where we were really needed!"
In reply to dinkypen:
good report .. but this bit is contradicted on the omm forums (by a person
who got the heli ride)
>The press accounts of 13 injuries may have been inflated by being combined
>with other incidents not related to the race, but the full details on this
>have yet to come out. Cockermouth MRT told me they attended two fractured
>ankles and one marshal with mild Hypothermia, and the female competitor
>rescued after being washed downstream was helicoptered out with other
>walkers (not competitors) who were in difficulties.
http://www.theomm.com/forum/index.php?topic=731.msg4578#msg4578
>the casualty was winched to safety in a RAF Sea King helicoptor. The four
>competitors who assisted were also winched out. This was, for me, a
>fairly terrifying experience. Others were actually observed smiling! Two
>members of the Mtn Rescue Team were also winched out to avoid a
>potentially risky re-crossing of the torrent. All rescuers showed superb >
>technical skills and resourcefulness in their actions. They were also
>friendly and humorous men and women.
so 7 in the Helicopter 5 competitors and 2 MR peeps
good report .. but this bit is contradicted on the omm forums (by a person
who got the heli ride)
>The press accounts of 13 injuries may have been inflated by being combined
>with other incidents not related to the race, but the full details on this
>have yet to come out. Cockermouth MRT told me they attended two fractured
>ankles and one marshal with mild Hypothermia, and the female competitor
>rescued after being washed downstream was helicoptered out with other
>walkers (not competitors) who were in difficulties.
http://www.theomm.com/forum/index.php?topic=731.msg4578#msg4578
>the casualty was winched to safety in a RAF Sea King helicoptor. The four
>competitors who assisted were also winched out. This was, for me, a
>fairly terrifying experience. Others were actually observed smiling! Two
>members of the Mtn Rescue Team were also winched out to avoid a
>potentially risky re-crossing of the torrent. All rescuers showed superb >
>technical skills and resourcefulness in their actions. They were also
>friendly and humorous men and women.
so 7 in the Helicopter 5 competitors and 2 MR peeps
In reply to lithos:
And one of the casualties was a helper blown over on the start line, not a competitor.
And one of the casualties was a helper blown over on the start line, not a competitor.
I work for Cumbria Ambulance Service (now NWAS), and was working this weekend, based in Keswick. I also had friends in the event. Here's what I wrote on a similar thread on an ambulance forum. May help add some info for people to make their judgements from. I am undecided as to how I feel about it all at the moment. My personal involvement was: 2 mild hypothermia, 1 facial injury ?broken jaw, 1 broken ankle. We couldn't get an ambulance up to Seathwaite farm before the floods due to parking issues (car just got through). :
"This is my neck of the woods, and the flip side to these arguments is the additional burden this event placed on pretty scarce resources. Cumbria Ambulance service dealt with >15 emergency calls to this event, tying up, at various times of the day, 7 or 8 NHS vehicles for hours at a time due to difficult access etc. Cumbria has approximately 25 vehicles active at any given time, so the extra work removed services from the rest of the population, and it was fortunate that the monopolising of ambulances by running the event in these conditions on saturday didn't lead to greater problems elsewhere. Crews attended from as far as Millom and egremont (wasdale), flimby, carlisle and penrith. The local services were not amused by the absence of any provision by the organisers for 1st aid treatment and evacuation procedures given the entirely predictable flooding that occurred. Crews were out all day and all night, later on helping Cockermouth's elderly residents evacuate their homes."
Comments regarding the great contribution to the local economy are a little overstated, I think. It's half-term, relatively easy money-making for the tourist industry this week. Most competitors will have arrived Friday p.m. or Saturday morning, camped at the event and then left on Sunday. Not a great extra input.
Hope this is useful.
"This is my neck of the woods, and the flip side to these arguments is the additional burden this event placed on pretty scarce resources. Cumbria Ambulance service dealt with >15 emergency calls to this event, tying up, at various times of the day, 7 or 8 NHS vehicles for hours at a time due to difficult access etc. Cumbria has approximately 25 vehicles active at any given time, so the extra work removed services from the rest of the population, and it was fortunate that the monopolising of ambulances by running the event in these conditions on saturday didn't lead to greater problems elsewhere. Crews attended from as far as Millom and egremont (wasdale), flimby, carlisle and penrith. The local services were not amused by the absence of any provision by the organisers for 1st aid treatment and evacuation procedures given the entirely predictable flooding that occurred. Crews were out all day and all night, later on helping Cockermouth's elderly residents evacuate their homes."
Comments regarding the great contribution to the local economy are a little overstated, I think. It's half-term, relatively easy money-making for the tourist industry this week. Most competitors will have arrived Friday p.m. or Saturday morning, camped at the event and then left on Sunday. Not a great extra input.
Hope this is useful.
In reply to bomb:
Smokers aren't a good example - they pay lots of extra tax and then die young, more than compensating the treasury for a bit of extra healthcare along the way.
> Or smokers.
Smokers aren't a good example - they pay lots of extra tax and then die young, more than compensating the treasury for a bit of extra healthcare along the way.
In reply to deepsoup: not so longa go there was some figures suggesting smokers paid in about £6 billion and cost the health service a billion, not to mention they dont usually live long enough to pick up their pension.
Im not sure if there are any figures for outraged armchair viewers having siezures.
Im not sure if there are any figures for outraged armchair viewers having siezures.
In reply to Tom the tall: hmm - a reasonably point obviously from a position of some authority
i used the analogy of motor rallys earlier that i used to help organise and you've reminded me that even on quite a minor event we'd have our 'own' ambulance(s) and a doctor
hmm
i used the analogy of motor rallys earlier that i used to help organise and you've reminded me that even on quite a minor event we'd have our 'own' ambulance(s) and a doctor
hmm
In reply to rich: I have been deeply irritated by the manipulation of this event by the Meedja and (possibly) other individuals. Now that these individuals are beginning to crawl back under their stones, Tom's posting is a timely reminder that this was not a perfect event. Everyone (who wants to) is going to learn from this weekend.
My training starts tomorrow.
My training starts tomorrow.
In reply to dmhigg: In terms of media coverage, this is much better than most, from the always iconoclastic Mick Hume :
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/mick_hume/article502616...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/mick_hume/article502616...
In reply to indalo:
This even got a mention on the Wright Stuff this morning.. Matthew Wright was quite sensible about it but heard the usual predictable stuff from guests...
This even got a mention on the Wright Stuff this morning.. Matthew Wright was quite sensible about it but heard the usual predictable stuff from guests...
In reply to rich: He is always interesting, sometimes vividly illustrating the the main point in pithy, lucid language, sometimes wildly nonsensical. One never knows which way he will jump in a given column, if it will be vibrant commonsense or patent rubbish.
Much more interesting than the Polly Pravdas or other totally predictable droids that pass for columists in the Guardian/BBC.
Much more interesting than the Polly Pravdas or other totally predictable droids that pass for columists in the Guardian/BBC.
In reply to Simon4:
Simon Barnes was also good:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5019723.ece
Simon Barnes was also good:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5019723.ece
It does seem, as a former competitor (Brecon Beacons, 2004) that the BBC and other media bodies remain shamefully clueless about mountain sports. (Then again, perhaps we could have deduced that from the Julia Bradbury series.)
Anyway, for those sufficiently riled and license-fee paying (that's me out since last year) people, here is an address for venting of spleen:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/
Apologies if this is a duplicate posting - 600+ posts was a lot to take in!
Anyway, for those sufficiently riled and license-fee paying (that's me out since last year) people, here is an address for venting of spleen:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/
Apologies if this is a duplicate posting - 600+ posts was a lot to take in!
In reply to Snorkers:
Good idea. People should complain, these people are responsible for reporting the "facts" to an entire population and beyond, and when shit like this comes spouting out they should be accountable.
Good idea. People should complain, these people are responsible for reporting the "facts" to an entire population and beyond, and when shit like this comes spouting out they should be accountable.
In reply to Postmanpat:
Yes he was. Might have to start getting the times as an ex-guardian reader
> (In reply to Simon4)
>
> Simon Barnes was also good:
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5019723.ece
>
> Simon Barnes was also good:
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5019723.ece
Yes he was. Might have to start getting the times as an ex-guardian reader
In reply to Simon4: Crikey I am surprised (though perhaps I shouldn't be) - nice piece by Mick Hume, until the last few paragraphs anyway...
In reply to MJH: More sensible comment from half a world away geographically (and much closer in terms of responsibilty and acceptance of risk) - the Otago Daily Times again (circulation has now increased to 5 people, another dog and a passing albatross):
http://www.odt.co.nz/sport/other-sport/29241/central-man-survives-extreme-w...
Cut & paste:
"Where else can you be on top of a mountain in a life-threatening situation and an hour later be having a beer in a pub?
That's the question posed by former Central Otago man Ken Jaquiery, after he survived an elite mountain race in Britain's Lake District.
About 2500 athletes were competing in the Original Mountain Marathon when high winds, heavy rain and flooding caused organisers to call off the two-day race during the weekend.
Media reports suggested more than 1700 competitors were unaccounted for at that stage of the race but organisers said only 44 were missing and, given the nature of the race, it was normal for competitors to camp out or take shelter where they could.
"It's fantastic to be somewhere like that on top of a mountain in an absolute gale, in a life-threatening situation, and an hour later be sitting in a pub having a beer," Mr Jaquiery, younger brother of Otago Daily Times illustrations editor Stephen, said.
Mr Jaquiery (45), who lives in Ilkley near Leeds, described conditions as "quite hazardous" but despite that said the experience was a "good day out".
"Every competitor was gutted it was called off."
About 80cm of rain had fallen in the area in the past week and rain was predicted for Sunday, so the forecast was accurate, he said.
Organisers shortened the course as a result, but winds rose to about 111kmh, with gusts of 166kmh on the top of the hills.
One person described the rain as being like "needles being thrown at you", he said.
"A good part of the time, I was holding my visor in front of my face so I could see at least 2 feet in front of me to take my next step.
You couldn't look further forward than that."
While conditions were severe, each participant was fully equipped with safety gear and provisions for 36 hours, and they were experienced fell [large hill] racers, Mr Jaquiery said.
"The whole idea behind these races is to pit your skills against the elements, to get out there in adverse weather conditions."
Back at base, rumour had it, the organisers knew things were getting bad when the portable toilets they had delivered started to float down the paddock, he said.
His team had decided to camp after finishing its six-hour course, when it found out the event had been cancelled and chose to head back over a mountain pass road to the start.
"There was an inch of water flowing down over the road, plus the wind was strong enough that you couldn't walk against it. You had to stand and lean into it."
When the team reached the starting camp, it had been closed because of flooding, but a nearby lodge offered them a place to stay.
"We were really happy considering the conditions. Our strategy and planning worked really well. Every competitor I saw at the end of the race had a smile on their face."
One woman was seriously injured when she was washed down a stream and a few experienced hypothermia."
Ben B
http://www.odt.co.nz/sport/other-sport/29241/central-man-survives-extreme-w...
Cut & paste:
"Where else can you be on top of a mountain in a life-threatening situation and an hour later be having a beer in a pub?
That's the question posed by former Central Otago man Ken Jaquiery, after he survived an elite mountain race in Britain's Lake District.
About 2500 athletes were competing in the Original Mountain Marathon when high winds, heavy rain and flooding caused organisers to call off the two-day race during the weekend.
Media reports suggested more than 1700 competitors were unaccounted for at that stage of the race but organisers said only 44 were missing and, given the nature of the race, it was normal for competitors to camp out or take shelter where they could.
"It's fantastic to be somewhere like that on top of a mountain in an absolute gale, in a life-threatening situation, and an hour later be sitting in a pub having a beer," Mr Jaquiery, younger brother of Otago Daily Times illustrations editor Stephen, said.
Mr Jaquiery (45), who lives in Ilkley near Leeds, described conditions as "quite hazardous" but despite that said the experience was a "good day out".
"Every competitor was gutted it was called off."
About 80cm of rain had fallen in the area in the past week and rain was predicted for Sunday, so the forecast was accurate, he said.
Organisers shortened the course as a result, but winds rose to about 111kmh, with gusts of 166kmh on the top of the hills.
One person described the rain as being like "needles being thrown at you", he said.
"A good part of the time, I was holding my visor in front of my face so I could see at least 2 feet in front of me to take my next step.
You couldn't look further forward than that."
While conditions were severe, each participant was fully equipped with safety gear and provisions for 36 hours, and they were experienced fell [large hill] racers, Mr Jaquiery said.
"The whole idea behind these races is to pit your skills against the elements, to get out there in adverse weather conditions."
Back at base, rumour had it, the organisers knew things were getting bad when the portable toilets they had delivered started to float down the paddock, he said.
His team had decided to camp after finishing its six-hour course, when it found out the event had been cancelled and chose to head back over a mountain pass road to the start.
"There was an inch of water flowing down over the road, plus the wind was strong enough that you couldn't walk against it. You had to stand and lean into it."
When the team reached the starting camp, it had been closed because of flooding, but a nearby lodge offered them a place to stay.
"We were really happy considering the conditions. Our strategy and planning worked really well. Every competitor I saw at the end of the race had a smile on their face."
One woman was seriously injured when she was washed down a stream and a few experienced hypothermia."
Ben B
In reply to MJH: Hume is bonkers and an (ex-?) trot which might be of interest to Simon (although all the ex-trots seem to end up as a stereotype neocons these days). But even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day.
In reply to dmhigg:
Don't worry about it, I have not heard anyone discuss this outside of this message board. I bet it is forgotten about already.
At work yesterday the discussions centred around the usual football, economy, US election and whether Russell Brand is a prized tw*t........not one mention of the hundreds who nearly died in the Lake District.
> (In reply to rich) I have been deeply irritated by the manipulation of this event by the Meedja and (possibly) other individuals. Now that these individuals are beginning to crawl back under their stones, Tom's posting is a timely reminder that this was not a perfect event. Everyone (who wants to) is going to learn from this weekend.
Don't worry about it, I have not heard anyone discuss this outside of this message board. I bet it is forgotten about already.
At work yesterday the discussions centred around the usual football, economy, US election and whether Russell Brand is a prized tw*t........not one mention of the hundreds who nearly died in the Lake District.
In reply to Simon22:
I think we should all donate to the Ross-Brand duo for deliberately taking the flak off the OMM, very thoughtful and prescient of them.
Steve
> (In reply to dmhigg)
> [...]
>
>
> Don't worry about it, I have not heard anyone discuss this outside of this message board. I bet it is forgotten about already.
>
> At work yesterday the discussions centred around the usual football, economy, US election and whether Russell Brand is a prized tw*t........not one mention of the hundreds who nearly died in the Lake District.
> [...]
>
>
> Don't worry about it, I have not heard anyone discuss this outside of this message board. I bet it is forgotten about already.
>
> At work yesterday the discussions centred around the usual football, economy, US election and whether Russell Brand is a prized tw*t........not one mention of the hundreds who nearly died in the Lake District.
I think we should all donate to the Ross-Brand duo for deliberately taking the flak off the OMM, very thoughtful and prescient of them.
Steve
In reply to Simon22:
Tom the Tall's posting is (IMO) one of the most useful on this thread because it deals entirely with facts.
Tom the Tall's posting is (IMO) one of the most useful on this thread because it deals entirely with facts.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: indeed. I do wonder, however, how many call outs they'd expect from an event this size in perfect weather.
In reply to Ridge:
Lol. I like the emphasis on the Honister pass being "a narrow mountain pass" , as if it's the South Col or something, and the Honister Youth Hostel being "remote". So remote, you can drive your Mondeo right up to the door, in fact!
As you've suggested, I think Mr Mark 'outdoor expert' Weir smells potential revenue arising from this.
Isn't it time we banned the reckless and irresponsible 'yomps' which result in so many young military trainees having to be rescued and hospitalised every year in the treacherous and remote Brecon Beacons? The name itself, which is welsh for "Mountains of Death", should be warning enough to the foolhardy organisers of such events, who should hang their heads in shame at putting our brave boys in such needless danger, when they could be out proudly serving the country in Afghanistan and Iraq.
> (In reply to MJH)
> [...]
>
> I particularly enjoyed the column by noted 'Outdoors Expert' Mark Weir of Honister Slate Mine. Apparently the event "Nearly turned the Lake District into a morgue". Quite what Saint Mark of Honister knows about the outdoors, (apart from how to charge people £25 quid to walk up a path) is possibly debatable, but you'll all be pleased to know this can all be prevented by having a 'dedicated Mountain Centre' to teach competitors about how to survive on the fells. (I suspect Honister might be a handy location).
>
> http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/
> [...]
>
> I particularly enjoyed the column by noted 'Outdoors Expert' Mark Weir of Honister Slate Mine. Apparently the event "Nearly turned the Lake District into a morgue". Quite what Saint Mark of Honister knows about the outdoors, (apart from how to charge people £25 quid to walk up a path) is possibly debatable, but you'll all be pleased to know this can all be prevented by having a 'dedicated Mountain Centre' to teach competitors about how to survive on the fells. (I suspect Honister might be a handy location).
>
> http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/
Lol. I like the emphasis on the Honister pass being "a narrow mountain pass" , as if it's the South Col or something, and the Honister Youth Hostel being "remote". So remote, you can drive your Mondeo right up to the door, in fact!
As you've suggested, I think Mr Mark 'outdoor expert' Weir smells potential revenue arising from this.
Isn't it time we banned the reckless and irresponsible 'yomps' which result in so many young military trainees having to be rescued and hospitalised every year in the treacherous and remote Brecon Beacons? The name itself, which is welsh for "Mountains of Death", should be warning enough to the foolhardy organisers of such events, who should hang their heads in shame at putting our brave boys in such needless danger, when they could be out proudly serving the country in Afghanistan and Iraq.
In reply to andy:
I imagine far fewer.
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth) indeed. I do wonder, however, how many call outs they'd expect from an event this size in perfect weather.
I imagine far fewer.
In reply to Ridge:
Is he the bloke that was responsible for the 'via ferrago' that was put up a bit since?
> (In reply to sutty)
> [...]
>
> He does that. I quite respect what he's done at Honister, and the boost it gives to tourism in the area, but he does come across as a bit of an arse...
> [...]
>
> He does that. I quite respect what he's done at Honister, and the boost it gives to tourism in the area, but he does come across as a bit of an arse...
Is he the bloke that was responsible for the 'via ferrago' that was put up a bit since?
In reply to BrianT: Yup.
In reply to dinkypen: Not quite sure what you want me to take from your link. It, and Tom the Tall's post, seem to underline my point, which is that events which may need a disproportionately large response from the emergency services should have more careful planning and be limited to a manageable size. It is unreasonable to expect others to have a reduced service so you can go running.
In reply to MG:
Take it back to obesity though. Is it unreasonable that if I ring an ambulance I may have a wait because ambulances are taken up treating self inflicted heart attacks? OK it's not on mass, but poor health due to smoking, drinking and poor diet ties up millions of the NHS's budget.
How is this any different?
Active people will save the government millions a year. The Aussies appreciate this so much that some of their health insurance policies even pay for your running shoes to get you out running.
So what if it did tie up resources for a day. That's a small cost for the government to pay to support an active population.
Also re me being defensive. Thought about it last night and I guess the reason I am is that we are in real danger of losing the most memorable days of our sport, the highlights. Ask any runner of his most memorable day on the fells and 90% will talk about a race held in bad weather. Ro's are now scared of the flack they get that many races are shortened or cancelled which just shouldn't have been. I guess I am worried that this will just make it even worse.
> (In reply to dinkypen) Not quite sure what you want me to take from your link. It, and Tom the Tall's post, seem to underline my point, which is that events which may need a disproportionately large response from the emergency services should have more careful planning and be limited to a manageable size. It is unreasonable to expect others to have a reduced service so you can go running.
Take it back to obesity though. Is it unreasonable that if I ring an ambulance I may have a wait because ambulances are taken up treating self inflicted heart attacks? OK it's not on mass, but poor health due to smoking, drinking and poor diet ties up millions of the NHS's budget.
How is this any different?
Active people will save the government millions a year. The Aussies appreciate this so much that some of their health insurance policies even pay for your running shoes to get you out running.
So what if it did tie up resources for a day. That's a small cost for the government to pay to support an active population.
Also re me being defensive. Thought about it last night and I guess the reason I am is that we are in real danger of losing the most memorable days of our sport, the highlights. Ask any runner of his most memorable day on the fells and 90% will talk about a race held in bad weather. Ro's are now scared of the flack they get that many races are shortened or cancelled which just shouldn't have been. I guess I am worried that this will just make it even worse.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: 15 call outs for 2000 people? Not sure - what does seem clear is that each callout took longer because of access difficulties - but it doesn't look to me like the actual event had a larger number of casualties than you'd expect because of the weather.
In reply to andy: I agree. Look at this years Snowdon race. Nothing was said but there were quite a few hospitalised, needed a heli evacuation, paramedics, yet not one mention of tieing up resources. I think there muist ahev been nearly 10 people in A&E that night from the race of 500 runners.
In reply to andy:
1. I am sure that a large proportion of the injuries, and all the hypothermia cases, were a result of the conditions. 2. As MG and others have said, 2000 entries for an event of this kind is far too many.
1. I am sure that a large proportion of the injuries, and all the hypothermia cases, were a result of the conditions. 2. As MG and others have said, 2000 entries for an event of this kind is far too many.
In reply to IainRUK:
I think it is different because of the concentrated effect of large events. Fat people having heart attacks are evenly distributed and the emergency services are set up to deal with them. You won't have to wait when you ring for an ambulance because someone is having a heart attack.
I see your point here and agree it would be a great pity if fell races (and climbing) were curtailed simply because they are risky when all the participants are happy to take the risk. I think though that ensuring risk taking doesn't effect the rest of the population is an important way of preventing unreasonable limits being placed on events. This event did swallow up a disproportionate fraction of the Cumbria's emergency services (its not just exaggerated reporting claiming this) and therefore directly affected others. Organisers in future need to avoid this being possible or society will quite reasonably want more limits on placed on events.
> (In reply to MG)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> How is this any different?
I think it is different because of the concentrated effect of large events. Fat people having heart attacks are evenly distributed and the emergency services are set up to deal with them. You won't have to wait when you ring for an ambulance because someone is having a heart attack.
>
> Also re me being defensive. Thought about it last night and I guess the reason I am is that we are in real danger of losing the most memorable days of our sport, the highlights. Ask any runner of his most memorable day on the fells and 90% will talk about a race held in bad weather. Ro's are now scared of the flack they get that many races are shortened or cancelled which just shouldn't have been. I guess I am worried that this will just make it even worse.
> Also re me being defensive. Thought about it last night and I guess the reason I am is that we are in real danger of losing the most memorable days of our sport, the highlights. Ask any runner of his most memorable day on the fells and 90% will talk about a race held in bad weather. Ro's are now scared of the flack they get that many races are shortened or cancelled which just shouldn't have been. I guess I am worried that this will just make it even worse.
I see your point here and agree it would be a great pity if fell races (and climbing) were curtailed simply because they are risky when all the participants are happy to take the risk. I think though that ensuring risk taking doesn't effect the rest of the population is an important way of preventing unreasonable limits being placed on events. This event did swallow up a disproportionate fraction of the Cumbria's emergency services (its not just exaggerated reporting claiming this) and therefore directly affected others. Organisers in future need to avoid this being possible or society will quite reasonably want more limits on placed on events.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: "1. I am sure that a large proportion of the injuries, and all the hypothermia cases, were a result of the conditions."
Why? Of course hypothermia is always a result of "the conditions" - but that suggests that you should never run a MM in anything other than perfect weather.
There's far, far too much being wise after the event going on here. Cumbria Police are saying (carefully) that they "wouldn't have recommended the event goes ahead" - well they never do, and that suggests they didn't advise against it beforehand. Same with MRT (who, despite being generally good eggs, do contain a fair smattering of people who like to provide a soundbite).
This is a big event - they will by definition cause some extra burden on local services. I suspect that this event over the years has contributed far, far more to MRT than this weekend's events cost.
Said it before and will say it again - it looks like the actual event itself went off pretty much as you'd expect - no more casualties than you'd expect for this type of thing, and everyone got themselves on and off the hill fine. Someone fell in a beck (well bugger me - I seem to recall doing that once or twice. Maybe we should ban slippy rocks?), a few people got cold and needed some help. If 2,000 is too many for such an event then maybe someone could suggest what's the right number? The numbers themselves were nothing to do with the events of the weekend - as less than 1% of the field needed any help - so what would be acceptable?
Why? Of course hypothermia is always a result of "the conditions" - but that suggests that you should never run a MM in anything other than perfect weather.
There's far, far too much being wise after the event going on here. Cumbria Police are saying (carefully) that they "wouldn't have recommended the event goes ahead" - well they never do, and that suggests they didn't advise against it beforehand. Same with MRT (who, despite being generally good eggs, do contain a fair smattering of people who like to provide a soundbite).
This is a big event - they will by definition cause some extra burden on local services. I suspect that this event over the years has contributed far, far more to MRT than this weekend's events cost.
Said it before and will say it again - it looks like the actual event itself went off pretty much as you'd expect - no more casualties than you'd expect for this type of thing, and everyone got themselves on and off the hill fine. Someone fell in a beck (well bugger me - I seem to recall doing that once or twice. Maybe we should ban slippy rocks?), a few people got cold and needed some help. If 2,000 is too many for such an event then maybe someone could suggest what's the right number? The numbers themselves were nothing to do with the events of the weekend - as less than 1% of the field needed any help - so what would be acceptable?
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: I agree re the numbers, I think most people do. I think it should be reduced by half. 7 or so events (elite,A,B, Score classes etc, each with ~150 people in, would be manageable IMO. In many ways this was always going to happen because the OMM had got too big. I know many serious runners who now won't do the OMM but would rather do the HMM, LAMM, Rab, GL3D etc. It's got a bit of a cult following though, I think fueled by the belief that this is the MM, I read somewhere that 'the OMM is only for the cream of fell runners', which frankly isn't true. I'm not saying the top class guys don't do it, they do, but many don't, and the lower classes mean it is accessible for anyone. I'd say a good third at a guess, won't be runners.
In reply to IainRUK: I've got some sympathy with that, but mainly because of things like parking etc.
The numbers were nothing to do with what happened at the weekend - and the miniscule % of people that actually needed help is testament to the type of people who were there.
The numbers were nothing to do with what happened at the weekend - and the miniscule % of people that actually needed help is testament to the type of people who were there.
In reply to andy:
% of people that actually needed help is testament to the type of people who were there.
Its the absolute number that is important not the percentage.
% of people that actually needed help is testament to the type of people who were there.
Its the absolute number that is important not the percentage.
In reply to andy: Yeah, that's my main issue really, clogging up an area, minor roads. Also erosion. That was why it was banned in Snowdonia, supposedly, after the Rhinogs event I think, there were also large erosion scars from after the event in the Dark Peak. But parking, access and sanitation are the main issues (but I think toilets are now the norm).
In reply to andy: In the circumstances the numbers are pretty remarkable that they were so low.
Without wishing to be critical of the Cumbrian emergency services - the question has to be asked as to what level of emergencies overwhelm them as 13-15 seems remarkably low (given that it wasn't 13-15 individual people but some groups).
Another good piece in the Independent: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/others/the-extreme-world-of-moun...
Without wishing to be critical of the Cumbrian emergency services - the question has to be asked as to what level of emergencies overwhelm them as 13-15 seems remarkably low (given that it wasn't 13-15 individual people but some groups).
Another good piece in the Independent: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/others/the-extreme-world-of-moun...
In reply to MJH:
That is an excellent read.
What is striking (to me, at least) is the that the numbers involved now (2000) are huge. The logistics of handling this sort of number is exactly what makes the "three peaks challenge" so unpopular and is, I suspect, part of the difficulty here - rather than the race itself.
That is an excellent read.
What is striking (to me, at least) is the that the numbers involved now (2000) are huge. The logistics of handling this sort of number is exactly what makes the "three peaks challenge" so unpopular and is, I suspect, part of the difficulty here - rather than the race itself.
In reply to MJH:
> Another good piece in the Independent: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/other...
That is an excellent article (it is by Richard Askwith, author of "Feet in the Clouds" which is about fell-running).
I particularly like this bit:
Reports that hundreds were "forced to spend the night on a mountainside" missed the point entirely: the only ones whose plans were disrupted were the disappointed hundreds who were forced not to spend the night on a mountainside.I have yet to speak to a single competitor who felt that he or she had been the victim of an emergency. "You'd have loved it, Richard," one of them told me. "Incredibly violent conditions – but a true test of mountaincraft."
That is an excellent article (it is by Richard Askwith, author of "Feet in the Clouds" which is about fell-running).
I particularly like this bit:
Reports that hundreds were "forced to spend the night on a mountainside" missed the point entirely: the only ones whose plans were disrupted were the disappointed hundreds who were forced not to spend the night on a mountainside.I have yet to speak to a single competitor who felt that he or she had been the victim of an emergency. "You'd have loved it, Richard," one of them told me. "Incredibly violent conditions – but a true test of mountaincraft."
In reply to MG: The absolute number is important in terms of parking, pressure on the local area, agreed - but if you cut the numbers in half that would save the ambulance service half a dozen incidents - seems they must be pretty stretched if their service falls over because of 6 call outs.
In reply to indalo:
Wow cannot believe there has been so much talk about it!
I was in elite, raced all day 1 and wasn't until we finished the day and ran in to dib that we were told it was cancelled. Previous to that I had not given it a thought about cancellation. We could make forward progress, nav was easy and the routes had been changed to take us away from really high ground and exposed crags. Why cancel?
We were all ready to find that dry bit of field and get ready for day 2. Yes it was windy, yes we got wet. But we also knew what the weather was like at packed accordingly. Looking around and speaking to people,so did everyone else.
I think Mark Weir was the first to break the story when screaming about his via ferrat.... I mean asking for buses to get these wet people out of his mine. instead of the police or even the bus service to ask for buses and help. He chose BBC radio! Obvious choice really? Tw@t.
As for comments by Simon Overton on what does the OMM do to local communities. Well anyone in Keswick on Friday? Loads of the gear shops doing a brisk trade, loads of B&Bs and hotels booked up, food places and pubs will all got increased trade. Other people will have seen the lakes for first time and come back on holiday again. Farmers get paid for use of land/fields etc etc Really people need to think before they type.
Shame really but I respect the organisers desicions at all points. Think they did a good job in difficult circumstances and was warmer and dryer this year than I was at Lowther last year.
The wise words of the great contempory poet, Chuck D rings in my head "Don't believe the hype!"
Wow cannot believe there has been so much talk about it!
I was in elite, raced all day 1 and wasn't until we finished the day and ran in to dib that we were told it was cancelled. Previous to that I had not given it a thought about cancellation. We could make forward progress, nav was easy and the routes had been changed to take us away from really high ground and exposed crags. Why cancel?
We were all ready to find that dry bit of field and get ready for day 2. Yes it was windy, yes we got wet. But we also knew what the weather was like at packed accordingly. Looking around and speaking to people,so did everyone else.
I think Mark Weir was the first to break the story when screaming about his via ferrat.... I mean asking for buses to get these wet people out of his mine. instead of the police or even the bus service to ask for buses and help. He chose BBC radio! Obvious choice really? Tw@t.
As for comments by Simon Overton on what does the OMM do to local communities. Well anyone in Keswick on Friday? Loads of the gear shops doing a brisk trade, loads of B&Bs and hotels booked up, food places and pubs will all got increased trade. Other people will have seen the lakes for first time and come back on holiday again. Farmers get paid for use of land/fields etc etc Really people need to think before they type.
Shame really but I respect the organisers desicions at all points. Think they did a good job in difficult circumstances and was warmer and dryer this year than I was at Lowther last year.
The wise words of the great contempory poet, Chuck D rings in my head "Don't believe the hype!"
In reply to Tonyfryer:
I now imagine lots of teams trying to stare each other down over the small dry bit of grass, until someone suggests settling it by a gmae of thumb wars.
>
> We were all ready to find that dry bit of field
> We were all ready to find that dry bit of field
I now imagine lots of teams trying to stare each other down over the small dry bit of grass, until someone suggests settling it by a gmae of thumb wars.
>
> The wise words of the great contempory poet, Chuck D rings in my head "Don't believe the hype!"
> The wise words of the great contempory poet, Chuck D rings in my head "Don't believe the hype!"
In reply to Tonyfryer: Great to hear from someone that was actually there - glad you had fun!
genuine question not criticsm ...
what were the police *doing* (other than co-ording MRT) for the event ?
what were the police *doing* (other than co-ording MRT) for the event ?
In reply to Tonyfryer:
They are always booked up at half-term. Or do you think the Lakes are empty when the OMM is not on???? Keswick is generally very busy as anyone who has tried to park there on any day of the year will tell you.
These are however of course generalisations. The fact is that the organiser had a duty of care to the participants and the image of the sport.
1) To the 4 people swept down river and winched by the RAF to safety, they failed.
2) With regard to the image of the sport the increasing media spin over the weekend supported by police statements that it was "foolhardy in the extreme" and participants who stated to camera they were scared and nearly blown over cliffs has damaged the sport in the eyes of the wider public and in the eyes of the authorities.
"Don't believe the hype" well of course, but also "Be aware of the power of hype"
They are always booked up at half-term. Or do you think the Lakes are empty when the OMM is not on???? Keswick is generally very busy as anyone who has tried to park there on any day of the year will tell you.
These are however of course generalisations. The fact is that the organiser had a duty of care to the participants and the image of the sport.
1) To the 4 people swept down river and winched by the RAF to safety, they failed.
2) With regard to the image of the sport the increasing media spin over the weekend supported by police statements that it was "foolhardy in the extreme" and participants who stated to camera they were scared and nearly blown over cliffs has damaged the sport in the eyes of the wider public and in the eyes of the authorities.
"Don't believe the hype" well of course, but also "Be aware of the power of hype"
In reply to Simon Overton:
http://www.theomm.com/assets/files/eventinfo/kit_check_2008.pdf
read the bottom paragraph, directly above the boxes where people sign to accept the above declaration.
> (In reply to Tonyfryer)
>
> The fact is that the organiser had a duty of care to the participants
>
> The fact is that the organiser had a duty of care to the participants
http://www.theomm.com/assets/files/eventinfo/kit_check_2008.pdf
read the bottom paragraph, directly above the boxes where people sign to accept the above declaration.
In reply to Simon Overton: Rubbish. People have died in races. Are you saying the RO is responsible?
Read the quote by Selwyn Wright, I totally agree with his views.
So what about being scared. I was shitting myself descending off the last pap of Jura in the fell race, bloody terrified, highlight of my year for me. If people can't cope they shouldn't enter.
What I hope has happened is people have woken up to the fact that it is THEIR responsibility to navigate the course safely. If they can't they should drop out. I hope most of those moaning are lost to the sport; rather than the sport that we all know and love is changed to accomodate people without the apropriate skills to cope.
I suggest you read a bit about past events and the history of fell running.
Read the quote by Selwyn Wright, I totally agree with his views.
So what about being scared. I was shitting myself descending off the last pap of Jura in the fell race, bloody terrified, highlight of my year for me. If people can't cope they shouldn't enter.
What I hope has happened is people have woken up to the fact that it is THEIR responsibility to navigate the course safely. If they can't they should drop out. I hope most of those moaning are lost to the sport; rather than the sport that we all know and love is changed to accomodate people without the apropriate skills to cope.
I suggest you read a bit about past events and the history of fell running.
In reply to IainRUK: Yep, with you completely Iain. Take responsibility away from the competitors and bestow on the RO and you will lose most of the beauty of MMs.
In reply to MJH:
A brilliant piece of writing. pretty much says it all, imo.
> (
> Another good piece in the Independent: >http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/others/the-extreme-world-of->...
> Another good piece in the Independent: >http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/others/the-extreme-world-of->...
A brilliant piece of writing. pretty much says it all, imo.
In reply to Simon Overton:
1 person swept down , 4 competitors rescued her , all 5 plus 2 MR were helicoptered to hospital
> 1) To the 4 people swept down river and winched by the RAF to safety, they failed.
1 person swept down , 4 competitors rescued her , all 5 plus 2 MR were helicoptered to hospital
In reply to lithos:
This posted on the FRA site:
"I was involved in the Wasdale incident on the Saturday, when we found a lady who had been washed down Spouthead Gill for about 100m. Her partner saw her disappear and she went for assistance- found some walkers (what were they doing there?!) who had a phone. They called MRT.
We (my running partner and her father and sister who were also competing as a sepearate team (and what are the odds on them being there ?!))managed to get to the lady (stuck on a narrow island mid torrent) and stabilise her, get her into a tent and sort of safe. However, the river was still rising ....
About 3 hrs later Wasdale MRT turned up with white water technicians (who had just been about to go kayaking, so were all kitted up!).
With ropes 2 MRT members reached us. A helicopter had been called but seemed unlikely to be able to fly in the conditions, but amazingly did. It winched all 7 of us from the now threatened island.
The casualty had suspected pelvic/ femur injuries and was hypothermic. Sister and Dad also very cold. All were flown to Whitehaven hospital."
ALC
This posted on the FRA site:
"I was involved in the Wasdale incident on the Saturday, when we found a lady who had been washed down Spouthead Gill for about 100m. Her partner saw her disappear and she went for assistance- found some walkers (what were they doing there?!) who had a phone. They called MRT.
We (my running partner and her father and sister who were also competing as a sepearate team (and what are the odds on them being there ?!))managed to get to the lady (stuck on a narrow island mid torrent) and stabilise her, get her into a tent and sort of safe. However, the river was still rising ....
About 3 hrs later Wasdale MRT turned up with white water technicians (who had just been about to go kayaking, so were all kitted up!).
With ropes 2 MRT members reached us. A helicopter had been called but seemed unlikely to be able to fly in the conditions, but amazingly did. It winched all 7 of us from the now threatened island.
The casualty had suspected pelvic/ femur injuries and was hypothermic. Sister and Dad also very cold. All were flown to Whitehaven hospital."
ALC
Can someome point me to Selwyn Wrights commments.
In reply to Eeeerm:
In the excellent article in the Independent, mentioned by several posters above. Selwyn's comments are quite a long way down, but it's a good read all the way.
www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/others/the-extreme-world-of-%3Emountain-marathons-975372.html
> Can someome point me to Selwyn Wrights commments.
In the excellent article in the Independent, mentioned by several posters above. Selwyn's comments are quite a long way down, but it's a good read all the way.
www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/others/the-extreme-world-of-%3Emountain-marathons-975372.html
In reply to Eeeerm:
About 2/3rds the way down this page: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/others/the-extreme-world-of-moun...
ALC
About 2/3rds the way down this page: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/others/the-extreme-world-of-moun...
ALC
In reply to a lakeland climber: Thanks. Yes, very good. He used to say, if you can get to the race, then its on.
I don't know if its been said, but my view is that we should increasingly be putting on local races for local people. If fell racing is generating the amount of traffic and Co2 footprint that this event obviously has, then heaven help us. As we begin our journey towardss using 20% of the enrgy that we do today in 2050, then we need to begin to make a shining example of our sport. Driving up from the south coast to do an overnight race, and then getting your car flooded out.....
I don't know if its been said, but my view is that we should increasingly be putting on local races for local people. If fell racing is generating the amount of traffic and Co2 footprint that this event obviously has, then heaven help us. As we begin our journey towardss using 20% of the enrgy that we do today in 2050, then we need to begin to make a shining example of our sport. Driving up from the south coast to do an overnight race, and then getting your car flooded out.....
In reply to Snorkers:
I decided to sent them a rant anyway. What the hell, I paid licence fees for 20 years and was angered by their sneering Londonite self-serving attitude for several of them. While I was at it I had a rant about the Adrian Chiles/Nicole Cook thing too - well, it made me feel better!
I decided to sent them a rant anyway. What the hell, I paid licence fees for 20 years and was angered by their sneering Londonite self-serving attitude for several of them. While I was at it I had a rant about the Adrian Chiles/Nicole Cook thing too - well, it made me feel better!
In reply to Snorkers: "While I was at it I had a rant about the Adrian Chiles/Nicole Cook thing too"??
Missed that - what was it?
Missed that - what was it?
In reply to Simon Overton: Simon, it is mainly you generating the hype on this page, and I am angry with myself for letting you wind me up, but I think it is very very important that everyone reaslies that the ROs do not have a responsibility of care.
Can you think for yourself through what would happen if the organisers of outdoor events had any responsibility of care as a matter of course? Not only the unspeakable litigation problems, but also encouraging people inequipped to look after themselves to go into the hills thinking someone will look out for them if it goes wrong.
Can you think for yourself through what would happen if the organisers of outdoor events had any responsibility of care as a matter of course? Not only the unspeakable litigation problems, but also encouraging people inequipped to look after themselves to go into the hills thinking someone will look out for them if it goes wrong.
In reply to fishyfishfish:
To me, the whole point of any adventurous outdoor pursuit (whatever it might be), is to escape the nannying, wrap them up in cotton wool mentality of everyday life.
The whole attraction of events like the OMM is that there ISN’T someone on the hills making sure you’re ok… Otherwise, what’s the point?
To me, the whole point of any adventurous outdoor pursuit (whatever it might be), is to escape the nannying, wrap them up in cotton wool mentality of everyday life.
The whole attraction of events like the OMM is that there ISN’T someone on the hills making sure you’re ok… Otherwise, what’s the point?
In reply to anyone:
Is it true what I heard on the news - that someone actually completed the course? Good effort whoever that was!
Is it true what I heard on the news - that someone actually completed the course? Good effort whoever that was!
In reply to Paz:
On Sky One tonight "Britains Hardest Missing Man"
On Sky One tonight "Britains Hardest Missing Man"
In reply to Eeeerm:
There's a thread for you somewhere else on this forum...!
Seriously, the lake district has been putting on local fell races for pretty much longer than anywhere else I can think of. It's the very heart and home of fellrunning and is still making local heroes to this very day. It's just not true to say that fellrunning is a national sport that needs to become more localised, but as with any sport there will be people who want to compete against the best from the rest of the country.
>
> I don't know if its been said, but my view is that we should increasingly be putting on local races for local people.
> I don't know if its been said, but my view is that we should increasingly be putting on local races for local people.
There's a thread for you somewhere else on this forum...!
Seriously, the lake district has been putting on local fell races for pretty much longer than anywhere else I can think of. It's the very heart and home of fellrunning and is still making local heroes to this very day. It's just not true to say that fellrunning is a national sport that needs to become more localised, but as with any sport there will be people who want to compete against the best from the rest of the country.
In reply to andy:
<rant> Sports Personaility Of The Year - they awarded the prize to Zara Palmer-Phillipson for being a royal celebrity and (purely coincidentally) a participant in one of only three (?) sports to which they had just agreed to provide exclusive coverage of over the coming year. Before that on the show, however, Adrian Chiles 'interviewed' Nicole Cook about her cycling. He clearly had no concept of the sport, had done no research, and managed to patronise her quite extraordinarily with questions like 'do you fall off your bike much?'. Fast-forward 18 months. British cyclists have swept the board at the Olympics (fantastic!), British equestrians have....erm, not. The BBC is now falling over itself to lick any backside that's just left a plastic saddle and seems unaware of its own laughability. Having seen the way they treated a World Champion at one sport not (generally) dominated by what the BBC considers to be the cream of society (rich celebrities), it doesn't suprise me to see the same contempt extended to another (fell running/MM). <end rant>
>
> Missed that - what was it?
> Missed that - what was it?
<rant> Sports Personaility Of The Year - they awarded the prize to Zara Palmer-Phillipson for being a royal celebrity and (purely coincidentally) a participant in one of only three (?) sports to which they had just agreed to provide exclusive coverage of over the coming year. Before that on the show, however, Adrian Chiles 'interviewed' Nicole Cook about her cycling. He clearly had no concept of the sport, had done no research, and managed to patronise her quite extraordinarily with questions like 'do you fall off your bike much?'. Fast-forward 18 months. British cyclists have swept the board at the Olympics (fantastic!), British equestrians have....erm, not. The BBC is now falling over itself to lick any backside that's just left a plastic saddle and seems unaware of its own laughability. Having seen the way they treated a World Champion at one sport not (generally) dominated by what the BBC considers to be the cream of society (rich celebrities), it doesn't suprise me to see the same contempt extended to another (fell running/MM). <end rant>
In reply to Paz:
I dont see how he could, they never handed out the second day courses did they? Unless he was in score of course, maybe then it was possible.
> (In reply to anyone)
>
> Is it true what I heard on the news - that someone actually completed the course? Good effort whoever that was!
>
> Is it true what I heard on the news - that someone actually completed the course? Good effort whoever that was!
I dont see how he could, they never handed out the second day courses did they? Unless he was in score of course, maybe then it was possible.
In reply to Snorkers:
He's a cyclist like me, who probably also like me, nonetheless doesn't really give a shit about the sport (but would watch it if it was on TV).
> Adrian Chiles 'interviewed' Nicole Cook about her cycling. He clearly had > no concept of the sport,
He's a cyclist like me, who probably also like me, nonetheless doesn't really give a shit about the sport (but would watch it if it was on TV).
In reply to Paz:
Hmm, I see what you are saying, but I'm a motorist who doesn't care about F1 or superbikes, and doesn't watch it on TV. If I was interviewing someone who was World Champion at a motorsport, on TV, when they were up for a prestigious award, I would do them the courtesy of trying to ask them something intelligent, that might not publicly insult their achievements. Until that evening I was under the impression that would be part of his job description, but it seems not.
Hmm, I see what you are saying, but I'm a motorist who doesn't care about F1 or superbikes, and doesn't watch it on TV. If I was interviewing someone who was World Champion at a motorsport, on TV, when they were up for a prestigious award, I would do them the courtesy of trying to ask them something intelligent, that might not publicly insult their achievements. Until that evening I was under the impression that would be part of his job description, but it seems not.
In reply to Paz: hi james,how's it going?? came across ginger Tom up there on the Sunday morning
In reply to Snorkers: Was she World Champ at that point? I didn't think she was, where as Zara Phillips had just become the eventing world champion...
In reply to Al Evans:
Most people did complete day 1, it was when they arrived at the over-night camp to find the event cancelled and the many mixed messages about where to report to, the chaos started. If you look on the OMM site there are many threads for each class where people are comparing times etc.. to try and work out roughly won.
> (In reply to Paz)Finished courses?
> [...]>
> I dont see how he could, they never handed out the second day courses did they? Unless he was in score of course, maybe then it was possible.
> [...]>
> I dont see how he could, they never handed out the second day courses did they? Unless he was in score of course, maybe then it was possible.
Most people did complete day 1, it was when they arrived at the over-night camp to find the event cancelled and the many mixed messages about where to report to, the chaos started. If you look on the OMM site there are many threads for each class where people are comparing times etc.. to try and work out roughly won.
In reply to MJH: I think she may have been both recent world champ in more than one event, and winner of a couple of other major events that year. Although my real point is that Chiles was rude to her, rather than questioning the integrity of the award process.
Here we are though:
http://nicolaswebb.blogspot.com/2006/12/nicole-cooke-sports-personality-of-...
http://www.roadcyclinguk.com/news/article/mps/uan/1524
Here we are though:
http://nicolaswebb.blogspot.com/2006/12/nicole-cooke-sports-personality-of-...
http://www.roadcyclinguk.com/news/article/mps/uan/1524
In reply to Snorkers: Point taken, but it's a prime time entertainment program, and falling off your bike is something we plebs'd all wonder about.
But yes, the important point is that Xara who takes the credit for her horse's hard work and injuries, who noone had heard of until she won that title obviously had some friends in high places other than the palace, or they had a lot of free minutes that could be used on phone in lines.
In reply to Stew: Fine thankyou. Yourself? You have fun up there then?!
But yes, the important point is that Xara who takes the credit for her horse's hard work and injuries, who noone had heard of until she won that title obviously had some friends in high places other than the palace, or they had a lot of free minutes that could be used on phone in lines.
In reply to Stew: Fine thankyou. Yourself? You have fun up there then?!
In reply to fishyfishfish:
Are you posting this as a legal opinion or just your desire for it not to be the case - because if it is the latter it's not helpful.
The litigation isn't unspeakable, it's likely to be very much in your face as some organisations have found out to their cost very recently http://www.cumberland-news.co.uk/1.259575
Are you posting this as a legal opinion or just your desire for it not to be the case - because if it is the latter it's not helpful.
The litigation isn't unspeakable, it's likely to be very much in your face as some organisations have found out to their cost very recently http://www.cumberland-news.co.uk/1.259575
In reply to Snorkers & MJH:
Yeah but we have to draw the line somewhere. There was a bloody world conkers championship held somewhere the other week.
Much as I would love to see the BBC Sports personality of The Year Award go to a 99-er Horsechestnut, they should be concentrating on proper sports.
> Was she world champ (In reply to MJH) I think she may have been both >recent world champ in more than one event,
Yeah but we have to draw the line somewhere. There was a bloody world conkers championship held somewhere the other week.
Much as I would love to see the BBC Sports personality of The Year Award go to a 99-er Horsechestnut, they should be concentrating on proper sports.
In reply to indalo:
It would be interesting to find out who called in the MR and the police. Obviously it is documented that the help for the woman hurt in the stream was raised by other member of her group (and rightly so) but what about in Borrowdale? Was it the all singing, all dancing Mr Weir? Fair does he did what he could to help but then put his foot in it by over stepping the mark with his feelings and comments.
As has already been said, there were MR members taking part in the marathon, perhaps they will at some point make their thoughts known. Sometimes it is not those involved in an event who put these systems into motion and once started thay can be difficult to stop, especially with organisations such as the police who would (in more ways than one be out of their depth). What role did they take? Was it organising moving vehicles, actually going onto the fells looking for people or helping ferry people away from the area? As I said earlier, only like minded and like skilled people can rescue someone in events such as the OMM. One pile up on the M6 can result in a few or lots of casualties but it doesn't mean the number of users is restricted.
Most of us on here will regularly contribute to the MR and tha Air Ambulance and we contribute to the RAF, the Police and the NHS on a compulsoraly frequent basis. Some of these services are rarely used and that's the way we want it to stay but we contribute because we need to know they are there for us if we need them. It is because they are in existence that we can take risks. One of the big things when we are being trained to work with children is to allow them to be able to take risks. In schools the health and safety issues have limited the risks that can be taken and our kids no longer get to do the things we did. I just hope that this does not limit the risks that we as adults can take.
The people concerned were not missing and the number of those air lifted was increased because the group was lifted off rather than just those needing hospital care. Although it would only be in very extreme conditions that the MR would say 'enough is enough' they do have that option.
It would be interesting to find out who called in the MR and the police. Obviously it is documented that the help for the woman hurt in the stream was raised by other member of her group (and rightly so) but what about in Borrowdale? Was it the all singing, all dancing Mr Weir? Fair does he did what he could to help but then put his foot in it by over stepping the mark with his feelings and comments.
As has already been said, there were MR members taking part in the marathon, perhaps they will at some point make their thoughts known. Sometimes it is not those involved in an event who put these systems into motion and once started thay can be difficult to stop, especially with organisations such as the police who would (in more ways than one be out of their depth). What role did they take? Was it organising moving vehicles, actually going onto the fells looking for people or helping ferry people away from the area? As I said earlier, only like minded and like skilled people can rescue someone in events such as the OMM. One pile up on the M6 can result in a few or lots of casualties but it doesn't mean the number of users is restricted.
Most of us on here will regularly contribute to the MR and tha Air Ambulance and we contribute to the RAF, the Police and the NHS on a compulsoraly frequent basis. Some of these services are rarely used and that's the way we want it to stay but we contribute because we need to know they are there for us if we need them. It is because they are in existence that we can take risks. One of the big things when we are being trained to work with children is to allow them to be able to take risks. In schools the health and safety issues have limited the risks that can be taken and our kids no longer get to do the things we did. I just hope that this does not limit the risks that we as adults can take.
The people concerned were not missing and the number of those air lifted was increased because the group was lifted off rather than just those needing hospital care. Although it would only be in very extreme conditions that the MR would say 'enough is enough' they do have that option.
In reply to Paz:
yeah it was fun,will tell you about it next time we go for a pint
>
>
> In reply to Stew: Fine thankyou. Yourself? You have fun up there then?!
>
> In reply to Stew: Fine thankyou. Yourself? You have fun up there then?!
yeah it was fun,will tell you about it next time we go for a pint
In reply to Paz:
I don't think they gave out any Olympic medals for conkers this year though Paz ;-p
They certainly haven't given any to dear Zara - or her horse. I read last week that the latest poor nag she rides was shot after she drove it into a fence....it's a dangerous game, this horse-conkers malarkey!
I don't think they gave out any Olympic medals for conkers this year though Paz ;-p
They certainly haven't given any to dear Zara - or her horse. I read last week that the latest poor nag she rides was shot after she drove it into a fence....it's a dangerous game, this horse-conkers malarkey!
In reply to Knitting Norah:
It seems to be Weir that initiated it, and the police compounded it by closing the road to people trying to get back to Borrowdale. you can hear him on this link;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7691020.stm
It seems to be Weir that initiated it, and the police compounded it by closing the road to people trying to get back to Borrowdale. you can hear him on this link;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7691020.stm
Excuse me for coming over a bit Oxbridge old boy network, nudge nudge, type bollocks, but does anyone know if Conkers has got quarter blue status or owt? Hasn't tiddly winks? And if not, then dammit why not? Would international competitions either contravene contraband regulations or give the home team an unfair advantage?
In reply to James Jackson:
Three day event a proper sport? Not as much as cycling where there's a pretty obvious goal - to go fast (I didn't understand that points lapping sport mind, nor green jersey (some sort of poisonous potatoe?) and King of The Mountains).
The lacrosse fast galloping bit was fun to watch, a bit like a horseback really, but come on the dressage's really pushing the line between art and sport (in the sense of which council you'd apply to funding for) - it's at best like ballet on horses and at worse a fashion show/ equine crufts - and the horse should get the medal. Maybe I don't know much about it?
And if you're not related to the queen then just like how are you supposed to get into it anyway? Get a job at a stable and work your way up?
Conkers and cycling, well any 6 year old's an expert on the former, and you wouldn't get a story like Graeme Obree building his own trial bike out of a child's bike and a washing machine gasket and setting a world hour record on it in 3 daying would you?
Any fool can get a conker or a bike or a canoe for free and do something moderately cool and slightly illegal.
That's a bit unfair to put it down directly to how easy it is to get into, cos I like F1, but given the tour de france bikes are available in the shops for only O(£2000) ish (which is a snip for a small business sponsor), there're as a consequence a lot more competitors in the world of cycling than there are in a 3 day event, so becoming world champion in that is automatically harder, because you're champion over more people wou could actually compete with you.
I probably do sound terribly working class or something, but there's no practical reason in the world why anyone can't compete with me on the rock, (or dominate me on plastic) - I've given people equipment to help them overcome the slight barrier there. And I've got a bike, but it's plain to me that Nicole whats her face is probably a lot faster than me on hers. And I can get a conker, and I've got a canoe. But how exactly am I supposed to compete against Zara?
In reply to James Jackson:
Three day event a proper sport? Not as much as cycling where there's a pretty obvious goal - to go fast (I didn't understand that points lapping sport mind, nor green jersey (some sort of poisonous potatoe?) and King of The Mountains).
The lacrosse fast galloping bit was fun to watch, a bit like a horseback really, but come on the dressage's really pushing the line between art and sport (in the sense of which council you'd apply to funding for) - it's at best like ballet on horses and at worse a fashion show/ equine crufts - and the horse should get the medal. Maybe I don't know much about it?
And if you're not related to the queen then just like how are you supposed to get into it anyway? Get a job at a stable and work your way up?
Conkers and cycling, well any 6 year old's an expert on the former, and you wouldn't get a story like Graeme Obree building his own trial bike out of a child's bike and a washing machine gasket and setting a world hour record on it in 3 daying would you?
Any fool can get a conker or a bike or a canoe for free and do something moderately cool and slightly illegal.
That's a bit unfair to put it down directly to how easy it is to get into, cos I like F1, but given the tour de france bikes are available in the shops for only O(£2000) ish (which is a snip for a small business sponsor), there're as a consequence a lot more competitors in the world of cycling than there are in a 3 day event, so becoming world champion in that is automatically harder, because you're champion over more people wou could actually compete with you.
I probably do sound terribly working class or something, but there's no practical reason in the world why anyone can't compete with me on the rock, (or dominate me on plastic) - I've given people equipment to help them overcome the slight barrier there. And I've got a bike, but it's plain to me that Nicole whats her face is probably a lot faster than me on hers. And I can get a conker, and I've got a canoe. But how exactly am I supposed to compete against Zara?
In reply to Paz:
>But how exactly am I supposed to compete against Zara?
You could try winning Big Brother.
>But how exactly am I supposed to compete against Zara?
You could try winning Big Brother.
In reply to indalo:
Cumbria's director of public health is on lookaround calling for tighter regulations of mountain marathons in the lake district. Mike Parsons pretty much incoherent. Parsons accused of selfishness. Parsons asked to cough up cost to the emergency services. Told he has contributed nothing to the local economy. There is a naivety about this a naivety I find now even more worrying.
Parsons has undermined fell running as the sport it should be- well done.
Cumbria's director of public health is on lookaround calling for tighter regulations of mountain marathons in the lake district. Mike Parsons pretty much incoherent. Parsons accused of selfishness. Parsons asked to cough up cost to the emergency services. Told he has contributed nothing to the local economy. There is a naivety about this a naivety I find now even more worrying.
Parsons has undermined fell running as the sport it should be- well done.
In reply to Simon Overton:
"There is a naivety about this a naivety I find now even more worrying."- director of public health.
"There is a naivety about this a naivety I find now even more worrying."- director of public health.
In reply to Paz:
You mean the cross country? The bit with the big jumps made of trees and stuff? Yeah, it's fantastic fun.
Yeah, I think that's the case It takes years to train a dressage horse correctly - for both gymnastic (i.e. physical) and mental development. The knowledge and ability to do that is why it's worthwhile - think of the time you've spent developing the same for climbing.
Well, if me doing a lowly science PhD can afford to keep two horses, one of which is a very nice well bred warmblood, I can't see that the barrier is too high financially. It also requires an aweful lot of time and willingness to learn. Knowing people helps, but I only know people by being willing to jump on any horse and school it for people!
You can pick up a horse for O(£2000) ish. Some top event horses have come off the racetrack as 2 year olds and sold for peanuts as they were rubbish at racing. A proven event horse will cost you O(£250000), so the key is in being able to school young horses and sometimes you strike lucky.
> The lacrosse fast galloping bit was fun to watch, a bit like a horseback really
You mean the cross country? The bit with the big jumps made of trees and stuff? Yeah, it's fantastic fun.
> But come on the dressage's really pushing the line between art and sport (in the sense of which council you'd apply to funding for) - it's at best like ballet on horses and at worse a fashion show/ equine crufts - and the horse should get the medal. Maybe I don't know much about it?
Yeah, I think that's the case It takes years to train a dressage horse correctly - for both gymnastic (i.e. physical) and mental development. The knowledge and ability to do that is why it's worthwhile - think of the time you've spent developing the same for climbing.
> And if you're not related to the queen then just like how are you supposed to get into it anyway? Get a job at a stable and work your way up?
Well, if me doing a lowly science PhD can afford to keep two horses, one of which is a very nice well bred warmblood, I can't see that the barrier is too high financially. It also requires an aweful lot of time and willingness to learn. Knowing people helps, but I only know people by being willing to jump on any horse and school it for people!
> That's a bit unfair to put it down directly to how easy it is to get into, cos I like F1, but given the tour de france bikes are available in the shops for only O(£2000) ish (which is a snip for a small business sponsor), there're as a consequence a lot more competitors in the world of cycling than there are in a 3 day event, so becoming world champion in that is automatically harder, because you're champion over more people wou could actually compete with you.
You can pick up a horse for O(£2000) ish. Some top event horses have come off the racetrack as 2 year olds and sold for peanuts as they were rubbish at racing. A proven event horse will cost you O(£250000), so the key is in being able to school young horses and sometimes you strike lucky.
In reply to Simon Overton: do you know if the people making the phone calls are sufficiently capable of offering a valid opinion or are they just local?
In reply to Simon Overton:
This is what I feel uncomfortable about. OMM is a profit making organisation, yet it relies on volunteers to help it out of a hole. In the early days of kimm, it was a shoestring affair, tuppence hapenny entry fee, volunteer marshalls and a small field. The current event has an increased field and increased entry fee, ramped up no doubt to match other "adventure races". The turnover is huge with entry fees approaching £100. Yet it still relies on volunteer marshalls and expects volunteers to risk themselves (mrts) to protect its profits!
OMM will suffer as a result of this years events but the real victims will be the smaller events, those which still really need volunteers and that are run on a shoestring without 3 figure entry fees. I can forsee these events (the grass roots of the sport) being pushed out.
> (In reply to indalo)
>
> Cumbria's director of public health is on lookaround calling for tighter regulations of mountain marathons in the lake district. Mike Parsons pretty much incoherent. Parsons accused of selfishness. Parsons asked to cough up cost to the emergency services. Told he has contributed nothing to the local economy.
>
> Cumbria's director of public health is on lookaround calling for tighter regulations of mountain marathons in the lake district. Mike Parsons pretty much incoherent. Parsons accused of selfishness. Parsons asked to cough up cost to the emergency services. Told he has contributed nothing to the local economy.
This is what I feel uncomfortable about. OMM is a profit making organisation, yet it relies on volunteers to help it out of a hole. In the early days of kimm, it was a shoestring affair, tuppence hapenny entry fee, volunteer marshalls and a small field. The current event has an increased field and increased entry fee, ramped up no doubt to match other "adventure races". The turnover is huge with entry fees approaching £100. Yet it still relies on volunteer marshalls and expects volunteers to risk themselves (mrts) to protect its profits!
OMM will suffer as a result of this years events but the real victims will be the smaller events, those which still really need volunteers and that are run on a shoestring without 3 figure entry fees. I can forsee these events (the grass roots of the sport) being pushed out.
In reply to Fawksey:
annoyed of flimby mostly I suspect. See above that post though. Sorry didn't catch public health chap's name.
annoyed of flimby mostly I suspect. See above that post though. Sorry didn't catch public health chap's name.
In reply to Simon Overton: Just seen on look north, a donation will be made to the mrts. Very good but this should be a matter of course when the event chooses its area for the years race. Claims that £3k has been raised already, no mention of where from, I suspect from competitors.
If someone can assure me with evidence that omm and other high budget adventure races already donate a significant proportion of their profit to the relevent mrts then I will happily eat crow!
If someone can assure me with evidence that omm and other high budget adventure races already donate a significant proportion of their profit to the relevent mrts then I will happily eat crow!
In reply to a lakeland climber:
This is the sort of thing that could happen on any mountain, anywhere, any time. It happened on Dartmoor last year, remember? It's a dramatic rescue, but not in-and-of-itself a result of anything the organisers did or didn't do. Mostly though, well done to the people on the scene for the effort. Excellent stuff.
> (In reply to lithos)
>
> This posted on the FRA site:
>
> "I was involved in the Wasdale incident on the Saturday, when we found a lady who had been washed down Spouthead Gill for about 100m. Her partner saw her disappear and she went for assistance- found some walkers (what were they doing there?!) who had a phone. They called MRT.
> We (my running partner and her father and sister who were also competing as a sepearate team (and what are the odds on them being there ?!))managed to get to the lady (stuck on a narrow island mid torrent) and stabilise her, get her into a tent and sort of safe. However, the river was still rising ....
> About 3 hrs later Wasdale MRT turned up with white water technicians (who had just been about to go kayaking, so were all kitted up!).
> With ropes 2 MRT members reached us. A helicopter had been called but seemed unlikely to be able to fly in the conditions, but amazingly did. It winched all 7 of us from the now threatened island.
> The casualty had suspected pelvic/ femur injuries and was hypothermic. Sister and Dad also very cold. All were flown to Whitehaven hospital."
>
> ALC
>
> This posted on the FRA site:
>
> "I was involved in the Wasdale incident on the Saturday, when we found a lady who had been washed down Spouthead Gill for about 100m. Her partner saw her disappear and she went for assistance- found some walkers (what were they doing there?!) who had a phone. They called MRT.
> We (my running partner and her father and sister who were also competing as a sepearate team (and what are the odds on them being there ?!))managed to get to the lady (stuck on a narrow island mid torrent) and stabilise her, get her into a tent and sort of safe. However, the river was still rising ....
> About 3 hrs later Wasdale MRT turned up with white water technicians (who had just been about to go kayaking, so were all kitted up!).
> With ropes 2 MRT members reached us. A helicopter had been called but seemed unlikely to be able to fly in the conditions, but amazingly did. It winched all 7 of us from the now threatened island.
> The casualty had suspected pelvic/ femur injuries and was hypothermic. Sister and Dad also very cold. All were flown to Whitehaven hospital."
>
> ALC
This is the sort of thing that could happen on any mountain, anywhere, any time. It happened on Dartmoor last year, remember? It's a dramatic rescue, but not in-and-of-itself a result of anything the organisers did or didn't do. Mostly though, well done to the people on the scene for the effort. Excellent stuff.
So Shane only completed the first day course, as did others? Effort anyway. I'd have stayed at home.
In reply to James Jackson:
> (In reply to Paz)
>
> You mean the cross country?
>
> You mean the cross country?
Yep. I meant a `horseback rally', not a `horseback `really'. It's too late now, I know...
> think of the time you've spent developing the same for climbing.
Yes but I don't strut around showing off my muscles in front of cameras. Much. And then only if I'm made to. I do strictly action shots. And on video I only belay.
>
> Well, if me doing a lowly science PhD can afford to keep two horses, one of which is a very nice well bred warmblood,
> Well, if me doing a lowly science PhD can afford to keep two horses, one of which is a very nice well bred warmblood,
The studentships went up by 50% since I started mine in 1902 .
Good knowledge anyway.
In reply to Simon Overton: I can't believe I'm getting into posting here, but I am so incensed by your pathetic comments I need to know what sports you actually do? I can't believe you are a mountaineer, or fell runner or trad climber, so that leaves bolts. Is this true?
I say this because there is no way any free spirited member of the aforementioned sprots would write the utter drivel you have spouted on this forum. Go back to your couch and watch the telly.
I say this because there is no way any free spirited member of the aforementioned sprots would write the utter drivel you have spouted on this forum. Go back to your couch and watch the telly.
In reply to Simon Overton:
Having experienced the fine spectacle that is the Flimby Terrier and Lurcher show I suspect Mrs Angry of Flimby needs to worry more about inbred genetic diseases in her relatives than the effect of the OMM on local services....I digress.
Chap in question is Prof Dr John Ashton, who appears to be several stone overweight and a prime candidate for burdening Cumbria's helath services in the next few years.
Interestingly he seems to think "hundreds of competitors had to be escorted off the fells" , and is under the impression that Mountain Rescue services are actually provided by Cumbria Primary Health Trust. You'll also be pleased to know that he's advocating that anyone having an accident on the fells when it's a bit wet should be charged, perhaps by means of compulsory insurance for anyone walking more than 100yards from the tea shop.
I fell an angry, ranty e-mail coming on...
> (In reply to Fawksey)
>
> annoyed of flimby mostly I suspect. See above that post though. Sorry didn't catch public health chap's name.
>
> annoyed of flimby mostly I suspect. See above that post though. Sorry didn't catch public health chap's name.
Having experienced the fine spectacle that is the Flimby Terrier and Lurcher show I suspect Mrs Angry of Flimby needs to worry more about inbred genetic diseases in her relatives than the effect of the OMM on local services....I digress.
Chap in question is Prof Dr John Ashton, who appears to be several stone overweight and a prime candidate for burdening Cumbria's helath services in the next few years.
Interestingly he seems to think "hundreds of competitors had to be escorted off the fells" , and is under the impression that Mountain Rescue services are actually provided by Cumbria Primary Health Trust. You'll also be pleased to know that he's advocating that anyone having an accident on the fells when it's a bit wet should be charged, perhaps by means of compulsory insurance for anyone walking more than 100yards from the tea shop.
I fell an angry, ranty e-mail coming on...
In reply to Simon22:
Hmmm...I got berated with it at work, at my circuits class, and at a non-outdoors forum that I use. So I guess it depends who you talk to outside these Forums.
> (In reply to dmhigg)
> [...]
>
>
> Don't worry about it, I have not heard anyone discuss this outside of this message board. I bet it is forgotten about already.
>
> At work yesterday the discussions centred around the usual football, economy, US election and whether Russell Brand is a prized tw*t........not one mention of the hundreds who nearly died in the Lake District.
> [...]
>
>
> Don't worry about it, I have not heard anyone discuss this outside of this message board. I bet it is forgotten about already.
>
> At work yesterday the discussions centred around the usual football, economy, US election and whether Russell Brand is a prized tw*t........not one mention of the hundreds who nearly died in the Lake District.
Hmmm...I got berated with it at work, at my circuits class, and at a non-outdoors forum that I use. So I guess it depends who you talk to outside these Forums.
In reply to tetley: Yeah great contribution there, really adding something to the debate. Whydo you deduce that hes a sport climber? ive not read all of his posts i doubt you have either. He just seems to be asking worthwile questions. Loads of masochists clad in spandex and space age fleeces driving in by car and spending little money in the lakes isn't beneficial to the economy. I dont have a clue about the insurance aspect and all that but its clear that the organisers need to consider people other than themselves when organising the event, the programme needs to be one in which people are much more likely to aid the local economy. If people are willing to spend big money on entry to an event where all you get is free parking and a few cups of sunsip squash (or whatever free drinks entails) then surely given the opportunity theyd spend lots in local shops pubs.
In reply to 3leggeddog: I would imagine most sporting events rely heavily on voluntary help. In the vast majority of cases these will be sports that generate/pay huge sums of money to competitors/teams etc. especially when compared with the relatively tiny amount generated by OMM. This is certainly the case with most motorsports. Infact, for some events there are waiting lists for marshalling roles etc.
Being a "local" it's been fascinating watching/reading this thread and the related articles news links etc. The most irresponsible people seem to be those least equipped to offer opinion on the event i.e Cumbria constabulary(which most certainly ain't no beacon of management skills!), matey from Honister(who has a love of media and theatrical performance) and the BBC who appear to have completely misunderstood the event/situation and reported abysmally.
The opinions of some plonkers on here, including the oh so sensitive "please remove my post" brigade is quite funny. As ever with MRT's, speaking from experience, most would be only to willing to help and would not begrudge their involvement. Again, as ever with UKC, it is those who have little or no real knowledge who jump up and down and complain. If you don't like the risks don't accept the challenge, no one would or should think any the less of you. However, some do not mind/enjoy the involement and willingly give there time to help. Don't answer for them. The fact that a number of competitors were members of MRT's speaks volumes, as mentioned numerous times previously Fell races and MR are closely linked and I know that people in this area would be unhappy if events like this were lost to the Lakes because of the "hand wringing, we're all doomed" brigade.
That approx 10 people out of 1700 required hospital treatment following this event, irrespective of the weather, is absolutely incredible and a testament to the skills of those who took part. If only the rest of the whinging onlookers were half as self reliant!
Cheers
Iain
Being a "local" it's been fascinating watching/reading this thread and the related articles news links etc. The most irresponsible people seem to be those least equipped to offer opinion on the event i.e Cumbria constabulary(which most certainly ain't no beacon of management skills!), matey from Honister(who has a love of media and theatrical performance) and the BBC who appear to have completely misunderstood the event/situation and reported abysmally.
The opinions of some plonkers on here, including the oh so sensitive "please remove my post" brigade is quite funny. As ever with MRT's, speaking from experience, most would be only to willing to help and would not begrudge their involvement. Again, as ever with UKC, it is those who have little or no real knowledge who jump up and down and complain. If you don't like the risks don't accept the challenge, no one would or should think any the less of you. However, some do not mind/enjoy the involement and willingly give there time to help. Don't answer for them. The fact that a number of competitors were members of MRT's speaks volumes, as mentioned numerous times previously Fell races and MR are closely linked and I know that people in this area would be unhappy if events like this were lost to the Lakes because of the "hand wringing, we're all doomed" brigade.
That approx 10 people out of 1700 required hospital treatment following this event, irrespective of the weather, is absolutely incredible and a testament to the skills of those who took part. If only the rest of the whinging onlookers were half as self reliant!
Cheers
Iain
In reply to Ridge: The tragedy is that if they want to save tax payers money on emergency services, they would be better introducing prohibition in Cumbria and encouraging fell running! The costs of this event compared to the bill racked up every weekend of the year by the counties numpties in most town centres I'm sure would be tiny.
Iain
Iain
In reply to Removed User: Its ridiculous that it even made the news, Shock horror runners get wet, what's the next news story man goes to the shop for a pint of milk!
In reply to Removed User: Have you any idea the amount of tax there is on alchohol? You wanna be a bit more freindly to the pissed masses in carlisle next time your there its their booze spending thats putting your kids through school/paying for your healthcare/bailing out HBOS and stopping the economy from going into quite as bad a recession as it would have done. At least the last one should effect you even if the others dont.
In reply to johnj:
How about this?
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/opinion/our_view/1.261132
> (In reply to IainFP) Its ridiculous that it even made the news, Shock horror runners get wet, what's the next news story man goes to the shop for a pint of milk!
How about this?
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/opinion/our_view/1.261132
In reply to Removed User:
I agree the whole thing was poorly reported, you can't expect much else. Fell running is a minority sport and long may it stay so, Mr & Mrs average brek into a sweat just driving up honister!
Mark is a well known self publicist and this has contributed to the success of his business up in "honnywood".
I have friends who competed in and who rescued casualties from the event, spent both friday and sunday in their company. All were happy to donate their time to help out, even the bridegroom. I believe large profit making events should fund the mrts proactively rather than reactively.
All the best
I agree the whole thing was poorly reported, you can't expect much else. Fell running is a minority sport and long may it stay so, Mr & Mrs average brek into a sweat just driving up honister!
Mark is a well known self publicist and this has contributed to the success of his business up in "honnywood".
I have friends who competed in and who rescued casualties from the event, spent both friday and sunday in their company. All were happy to donate their time to help out, even the bridegroom. I believe large profit making events should fund the mrts proactively rather than reactively.
All the best
In reply to Ridge:
Well it makes sense, the rescue folk do a first class job, maybe travel insurance should relate to the great outdoors too
Well it makes sense, the rescue folk do a first class job, maybe travel insurance should relate to the great outdoors too
In reply to Ridge:
>
It amazes me that a local paper can be so ignorant and out of touch with local issues...
>
It amazes me that a local paper can be so ignorant and out of touch with local issues...
In reply to Ridge:
FFS, theres tea dripping down the laptop now!
> (In reply to johnj)
> [...]
>
> How about this?
>
> http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/opinion/our_view/1.261132
> [...]
>
> How about this?
>
> http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/opinion/our_view/1.261132
FFS, theres tea dripping down the laptop now!
In reply to 3leggeddog:
Referring to this perhaps:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=326166
> Claims that £3k has been raised already, no mention of where from, I suspect from competitors.
Referring to this perhaps:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=326166
In reply to johnSD: that is absolutely extraordinary. Up there with the skipton councillor questioning the building of a climbing wall said "it's all well and good building this facility, but who's going to want to use it on a cold wet night in November?"
Is there a way of responding to the news and star?
Is there a way of responding to the news and star?
In reply to deepsoup: With gift aid we are now nearer 4k. £ 3,240.00 donated, £868.72 giftaid.
http://www.justgiving.com/theomm08-mrtdonation
http://www.justgiving.com/theomm08-mrtdonation
In reply to indalo: Here's an interesting post from the OMM forum:
"Hi there,
Firstly i would like to say I am in your corner regarding your sport and what happened over the weekend. When i first heard of this event i thought it was a charity run, but after reading a little about your sport and looking at the video clips of the competitors you all looked prepared for the event. I think you should be in the next olympics !
Now regarding Mr Wear I live in west Cumbria and the guy is known for his big gob and self publicity. A little information for you guys, he lives in a small hamlet called Mockerkin which is just outside the western lakes beside Lamplugh village and is no greater than a 15 minute drive to his Honister slate quarry. why does he need to fly to work i ask ?
I look forward to reading your forum and good luck for next years event in west Cumbria.
Thanks from a true marra
Chris"
"Hi there,
Firstly i would like to say I am in your corner regarding your sport and what happened over the weekend. When i first heard of this event i thought it was a charity run, but after reading a little about your sport and looking at the video clips of the competitors you all looked prepared for the event. I think you should be in the next olympics !
Now regarding Mr Wear I live in west Cumbria and the guy is known for his big gob and self publicity. A little information for you guys, he lives in a small hamlet called Mockerkin which is just outside the western lakes beside Lamplugh village and is no greater than a 15 minute drive to his Honister slate quarry. why does he need to fly to work i ask ?
I look forward to reading your forum and good luck for next years event in west Cumbria.
Thanks from a true marra
Chris"
In reply to Beowulf:
Thanks - great post
"I think you should be in the next olympics !"
If orienteering and or hill running were Olympic sports, I expect the story would have been reported rather differently - especially by that local paper hell bent on destroying a few local livelihoods.
Just imagine if we all stayed away from the Lakes (well actually I don't go there too often because of the gouging) What would happen? Oh it has been tried. 2001 was a catastrophe, not only for the poor sods trying to farm.
Thanks - great post
"I think you should be in the next olympics !"
If orienteering and or hill running were Olympic sports, I expect the story would have been reported rather differently - especially by that local paper hell bent on destroying a few local livelihoods.
Just imagine if we all stayed away from the Lakes (well actually I don't go there too often because of the gouging) What would happen? Oh it has been tried. 2001 was a catastrophe, not only for the poor sods trying to farm.
In reply to Paz:
I don't think I've ever seen "action" in your climbing Paz
Even more than that now! And, did you know, the new kids this year get 3.5 years of funding allround! Slackers.
> I do strictly action shots. And on video I only belay.
I don't think I've ever seen "action" in your climbing Paz
> The studentships went up by 50% since I started mine in 1902
Even more than that now! And, did you know, the new kids this year get 3.5 years of funding allround! Slackers.
In reply to Alyson: I just see globalisation as a part of the problem and localisation as a part of the solution for so many of our problems. Sure, there are people from London who want to run the Ben Nevis race. Okay on a small scale, but when 2,500 descend on Borrowdale then I would say things are changing for the worse. I'll agree to differ in you want, but the times of travelling anywhere at the drop of a hat because we want to.....for a race....are numbered in my opinion.
From:
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/opinion/our_view/1.261132
a side-headline caught my eye.
-Carlisle is ‘race hate capital of Cumbria’
Well, there you are. They dislike the OMM more in Carlisle than anywhere - and that's official! Can you guess where this rag is published? (No prizes on offer.)
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/opinion/our_view/1.261132
a side-headline caught my eye.
-Carlisle is ‘race hate capital of Cumbria’
Well, there you are. They dislike the OMM more in Carlisle than anywhere - and that's official! Can you guess where this rag is published? (No prizes on offer.)
In reply to Simon Overton:
Absolute shite. Cancelling events, changing routes, undermines the sport.
> (In reply to indalo)
>
>
>
> Parsons has undermined fell running as the sport it should be- well done.
>
>
>
> Parsons has undermined fell running as the sport it should be- well done.
Absolute shite. Cancelling events, changing routes, undermines the sport.
In reply to IainRUK:
I was just waiting for the overwhelming logic of the expletive.
The point was that he failed to defend the sport effectively on lookaround to the wider public.
I was just waiting for the overwhelming logic of the expletive.
The point was that he failed to defend the sport effectively on lookaround to the wider public.
In reply to Simon Overton: He doesn't have to defend the sport. The sport is maybe too open, too accessible. I'm all for making it open to everyone, but they enter knowing the risks. If they can't cope, quit, don't moan. I've quite in races before now. I couldn't cope, I dropped out.
ALl these competitors saying: 'I was scared' 'The race shouldn't have been held', what rubbish. They set off knowing the weather, knowing the race would cover mountainous terrain. If they didn' think it should have been held, they simply should not have set off. Hopefully they have been lost to the sport.
I think fell running should be for all, but I also think the sport shouldn't be changed. If people can't cope, tough. Fell running is about freedom, so much freedom that you can get yourself killed, but that's why we love it. It's about going as fast as you can, but safe, going quick, while picking safe routes, coping with the weather.
A few weeks back I woke up ready for a long race, looked out the window, saw heavy rain and wind, low cloud, and thought sod it, not today, so went and did a XC race instead. I knew it would have been a battle. As it was the race was shortened. As usual a group ran the full route alone.
ALl these competitors saying: 'I was scared' 'The race shouldn't have been held', what rubbish. They set off knowing the weather, knowing the race would cover mountainous terrain. If they didn' think it should have been held, they simply should not have set off. Hopefully they have been lost to the sport.
I think fell running should be for all, but I also think the sport shouldn't be changed. If people can't cope, tough. Fell running is about freedom, so much freedom that you can get yourself killed, but that's why we love it. It's about going as fast as you can, but safe, going quick, while picking safe routes, coping with the weather.
A few weeks back I woke up ready for a long race, looked out the window, saw heavy rain and wind, low cloud, and thought sod it, not today, so went and did a XC race instead. I knew it would have been a battle. As it was the race was shortened. As usual a group ran the full route alone.
In reply to Simon Overton: Is that a problem? The "public" dislike fellrunners - I would have thought they would be fairly low down on the list of hatred a long way behind bankers, Russel Brand etc
In reply to IainRUK: Yes but when you open such events up to the masses they don't have the experience that you have, how do they get to learn?
In reply to johnj: There's 100's of events each year, mini-mountain marathons, one cay score events, orienteering, fell races, marked fell races, navigation courses. There's also many categories in the OMM. The list is endless. There are so many routes into the sport.
I myself run heavily discounted navigation courses (2 per year) for the Welsh Fell Runners Association as I feel we should put our money where our mouth is and help runners to be self sufficient in the hills.
I myself run heavily discounted navigation courses (2 per year) for the Welsh Fell Runners Association as I feel we should put our money where our mouth is and help runners to be self sufficient in the hills.
In reply to IainRUK:
he had to defend the sport against public health people, uneducated public, the police, local councillors, the ambulance service, in fact any glimmer of "risk assessment culture" impinging on risk taking in the mountains.
he had to defend the sport against public health people, uneducated public, the police, local councillors, the ambulance service, in fact any glimmer of "risk assessment culture" impinging on risk taking in the mountains.
In reply to IainRUK:
but that comes from entering events like this one and working it out, it's like the chicken and the egg, do you think all those newbies driving up to the lakes on mass caused their own chaos style weather system?
> I myself run heavily discounted navigation courses (2 per year) for the Welsh Fell Runners Association as I feel we should put our money where our mouth is and help runners to be self sufficient in the hills.
but that comes from entering events like this one and working it out, it's like the chicken and the egg, do you think all those newbies driving up to the lakes on mass caused their own chaos style weather system?
In reply to 3leggeddog:
http://www.justgiving.com/theomm08-mrtdonation
From many and various people, some who were indeed competitors who were there and who didn't require their services but who, nonetheless appreciate their role in the hills - read the comments
Many fellrunners do that as a matter of course throughout the year. Can you give all of us an idea of exactly what 'profit' the OMM organisation makes per annum please? Obviously you are sure that a profit is made, otherwise you would not have posted the comment that you did.....?? I am sure we would all be interested to hear.
> (In reply to Simon Overton) Claims that £3k has been raised already, no mention of where from, I suspect from competitors.
http://www.justgiving.com/theomm08-mrtdonation
From many and various people, some who were indeed competitors who were there and who didn't require their services but who, nonetheless appreciate their role in the hills - read the comments
> If someone can assure me with evidence that omm and other high budget adventure races already donate a significant proportion of their profit to the relevent mrts then I will happily eat crow!
Many fellrunners do that as a matter of course throughout the year. Can you give all of us an idea of exactly what 'profit' the OMM organisation makes per annum please? Obviously you are sure that a profit is made, otherwise you would not have posted the comment that you did.....?? I am sure we would all be interested to hear.
In reply to johnj:
They do them and talk to people who have done them.
These events aren't heavily advertised or publicised - before this weekend probably 99.9999% of the population was unaware of their existence. So to even consider entering you must somehow be aware of reality of what the events are like, probably by word of mouth from people who have done them before.
On the off chance that you enter one in complete ignorance, then there is plenty of information from the race organisers: and anybody with no prior knowledge will tend to err on the side of caution regarding kit lists and things because mountain marathons are made to sound like pretty daunting challenges (which they can be).
And if things are harder than you thought they might be, or if your kit isn't adequate for the conditions or your strength, then you drop out, turn back, learn the lessons, and consider whether you fancy giving it another shot next year....
> (In reply to IainRUK) Yes but when you open such events up to the masses they don't have the experience that you have, how do they get to learn?
They do them and talk to people who have done them.
These events aren't heavily advertised or publicised - before this weekend probably 99.9999% of the population was unaware of their existence. So to even consider entering you must somehow be aware of reality of what the events are like, probably by word of mouth from people who have done them before.
On the off chance that you enter one in complete ignorance, then there is plenty of information from the race organisers: and anybody with no prior knowledge will tend to err on the side of caution regarding kit lists and things because mountain marathons are made to sound like pretty daunting challenges (which they can be).
And if things are harder than you thought they might be, or if your kit isn't adequate for the conditions or your strength, then you drop out, turn back, learn the lessons, and consider whether you fancy giving it another shot next year....
In reply to johnj:
Same way as most people learn to get around the hills, I suppose. I learnt to read a map sat in the back of my parents' car, learnt to use a compass off a teacher at school and then went out and made my own mistakes on stuff that was unlikely to kill me before trying the same stuff on things that just might. Somewhere along that line I've picked up other useful skills and a fair bit of experience.
Watching the OMM footage this weekend, the penny finally dropped that not only had I been through similar, I'd also got myself out of it safely.
The outdoors doesn't have a neat, linear development curve with carefully defined checkpoints. Nor should it.
> (In reply to IainRUK) Yes but when you open such events up to the masses they don't have the experience that you have, how do they get to learn?
Same way as most people learn to get around the hills, I suppose. I learnt to read a map sat in the back of my parents' car, learnt to use a compass off a teacher at school and then went out and made my own mistakes on stuff that was unlikely to kill me before trying the same stuff on things that just might. Somewhere along that line I've picked up other useful skills and a fair bit of experience.
Watching the OMM footage this weekend, the penny finally dropped that not only had I been through similar, I'd also got myself out of it safely.
The outdoors doesn't have a neat, linear development curve with carefully defined checkpoints. Nor should it.
In reply to johnSD: To me something like the OMM is like a walk to the shop to get a bag of spuds, but that's not the point, lots of new people sign up each year, if you get weather like this and stick camera's in peoples faces you're going to get this result, that's the way it is, whatever you're trying to tell me is lost on me.
In reply to johnj:
What result? I don't follow your point, sorry
> (In reply to johnSD) , but that's not the point, lots of new people sign up each year, if you get weather like this and stick camera's in peoples faces you're going to get this result, that's the way it is,
What result? I don't follow your point, sorry
In reply to psd: likewise this is how they learn, my point being how do they get to learn if once they do this and this happens, people start throwing their toys in the air, just a big storm in a teacup nothing more
In reply to Simon Overton: No he doesn't.
In reply to johnj:
Those that enjoyed it (or got some form of positive experience/impression of mountain marathons) will take this weekend into account and may try another one at some point. Some people may never do another mountain marathon again, having learned that it's not for them/they're not for it. But that's nothing unique to this year - I'm sure loads of people try their their first and last event every year, and likewise loads try their first of many. And so inexperienced people learn one way of the other.
Those that enjoyed it (or got some form of positive experience/impression of mountain marathons) will take this weekend into account and may try another one at some point. Some people may never do another mountain marathon again, having learned that it's not for them/they're not for it. But that's nothing unique to this year - I'm sure loads of people try their their first and last event every year, and likewise loads try their first of many. And so inexperienced people learn one way of the other.
In reply to johnSD:
But I think that wasn't the point you were making... Which I get now, reading over your reply to Iain again...
But I think that wasn't the point you were making... Which I get now, reading over your reply to Iain again...
In reply to johnSD: Yes indeed the good thing on the whole is that the contestants coped well, in my eyes the thing than is pretty ridiculous really is the media's involvement
In reply to johnj:
But that is still the nub of the argument; at the point when the event was cancelled, or just before, somebody called in the media and the police. The injuries sustained seem to have centred around a nasty river crossing incident and the subsequent hypothermia. The hundreds missing, needing rescuing, needing a place to stay, these seem to have been fictional, and yet these are the aspects of the news that Mike Parsons is trying to defend. And he cannot get his point across because his attackers are still working on the increasingly shaky Weir/constabulary version of events. There is a good deal of evidence now that competitors were strongly discouraged (stopped) from returning to their cars, Wilfs and event HQ by the police and mine staff, who told them that Borrowdale was impassable (when it wasn't-lots of people drove home when the water receded on Saturday night: many more slept in their cars.)
Whatever the efforts of the "rescuers", their alliance with the hysteria of the media seem to have made the whole situation a lot worse. At the time when Mr Weir produced his impassioned plea on the radio to "bring buses" because the sky was falling in, competitors were walking back to their cars, and might have continued to do so. I have nothing but praise for the enthusiasm of the rescue, but it seems to have royally scuppered the traditional rescue plan of any fell race/mountain marathon: you must report to event HQ.
Mike Parsons should not need to be defending himself against a lie-fuelled lynch mob. He could be spending more valuable time with the MR and local ambulance service discussing how to make the next event better and safer. The police need to explain what brought them to Honister and what expert advice they followed. They should also bring forward the mystery copper who told the organisers not to go ahead. The MR have already said they gave no such warning.
> (In reply to johnSD) Yes indeed the good thing on the whole is that the contestants coped well, in my eyes the thing than is pretty ridiculous really is the media's involvement
But that is still the nub of the argument; at the point when the event was cancelled, or just before, somebody called in the media and the police. The injuries sustained seem to have centred around a nasty river crossing incident and the subsequent hypothermia. The hundreds missing, needing rescuing, needing a place to stay, these seem to have been fictional, and yet these are the aspects of the news that Mike Parsons is trying to defend. And he cannot get his point across because his attackers are still working on the increasingly shaky Weir/constabulary version of events. There is a good deal of evidence now that competitors were strongly discouraged (stopped) from returning to their cars, Wilfs and event HQ by the police and mine staff, who told them that Borrowdale was impassable (when it wasn't-lots of people drove home when the water receded on Saturday night: many more slept in their cars.)
Whatever the efforts of the "rescuers", their alliance with the hysteria of the media seem to have made the whole situation a lot worse. At the time when Mr Weir produced his impassioned plea on the radio to "bring buses" because the sky was falling in, competitors were walking back to their cars, and might have continued to do so. I have nothing but praise for the enthusiasm of the rescue, but it seems to have royally scuppered the traditional rescue plan of any fell race/mountain marathon: you must report to event HQ.
Mike Parsons should not need to be defending himself against a lie-fuelled lynch mob. He could be spending more valuable time with the MR and local ambulance service discussing how to make the next event better and safer. The police need to explain what brought them to Honister and what expert advice they followed. They should also bring forward the mystery copper who told the organisers not to go ahead. The MR have already said they gave no such warning.
In reply to dmhigg:
Yeah I saw it on the news and i said "why is this on the news they all have safety gear, most of the folk they're searching for are probably watching this on the telly from some pub somewhere"
Mike Parsons doesn't need to defend himself, he did his best in a bad situation! it just needs a clear and concise press release putting together with the facts, not the hype, and all the media's concerned have a responsibility to print that press release
Yeah I saw it on the news and i said "why is this on the news they all have safety gear, most of the folk they're searching for are probably watching this on the telly from some pub somewhere"
Mike Parsons doesn't need to defend himself, he did his best in a bad situation! it just needs a clear and concise press release putting together with the facts, not the hype, and all the media's concerned have a responsibility to print that press release
In reply to johnj: So 13 people hospitalised out of, say, 2500 involved (including marshalls, passing policemen, slate mine owners and rabid journalists) over a 36 hour period is just over 6900 hours of participation per A&E attendance.
Compares favourably with, say, horse riding with 250 hours participation per attendance at A&E.
The total number of 'mishaps' is still less I suspect than the Assynt LAMM, where a good friend spent a whole evening stitching wounds up in a midge infested field.
I say ban these irresponsible horse riders immediately. Long live MMs, and all those who accept that they are happy to take sole charge of their safety!
Ben B
Compares favourably with, say, horse riding with 250 hours participation per attendance at A&E.
The total number of 'mishaps' is still less I suspect than the Assynt LAMM, where a good friend spent a whole evening stitching wounds up in a midge infested field.
I say ban these irresponsible horse riders immediately. Long live MMs, and all those who accept that they are happy to take sole charge of their safety!
Ben B
In reply to indalo:
The hut I use is very close to the farm at Seathwaite and when I am not setting off somewhere myself I often notice many people setting off to go up to the tarn and then on to Great Gable or Scafell or over to Wastw*ter etc. Many times there will be hundreds and hundreds in the course of the day and into the evening. As we already know this area has the highest rainfall in the country and often there are still lots of people heading on up in atrocious conditions. I never think of this as wrong or stupid, I just think 'been there and done that' but now I am a bit older and don't want to be bothered with the bad weather unless I am caught out. But my point is that in any one day there will be a lot of people heading into these same fells, it isn't just on days of such events as the OMM. Because they are not all setting off at once or there hasn't been all this hype no one notices how many there are.
The hut I use is very close to the farm at Seathwaite and when I am not setting off somewhere myself I often notice many people setting off to go up to the tarn and then on to Great Gable or Scafell or over to Wastw*ter etc. Many times there will be hundreds and hundreds in the course of the day and into the evening. As we already know this area has the highest rainfall in the country and often there are still lots of people heading on up in atrocious conditions. I never think of this as wrong or stupid, I just think 'been there and done that' but now I am a bit older and don't want to be bothered with the bad weather unless I am caught out. But my point is that in any one day there will be a lot of people heading into these same fells, it isn't just on days of such events as the OMM. Because they are not all setting off at once or there hasn't been all this hype no one notices how many there are.
In reply to Simon Overton:
Pot Kettle Black - go figure.
No in fact don't, because the tale you espouse is poisonous. The fact is you’re stuck in your wheelchair for half your life looking back on a past time you used to have a minor involvement in, daring to suggest some degree of credibility is conferred to your argument because you are a local.
Obviously your knowledge of these activities is immense – way beyond the 2500 participants, of which the majority (clearly not the two who where top 3 in a mountain marathon event with 60 odd competitors.) are misled by commercial interest.
If you check on the OMM forum you will see that “St” Mark Weir who, according to you “worked solidly to assist Police and rescue workers with the "evacuation" of runners from Honister. He was efficient and organised” actually caused a lot of the confusion telling competitors the wrong information regarding the cancellation of the event and what steps they should take.
Finally your statement that “The point is not over whether it is morally right for truth to be an objective point of reference for policing but that de facto it does not matter given the fact that in these cirumstances they are the "authority" and the organisers are not.” Is fundamentally wrong in English Law. A Police Officer had an opinion that is the only true fact you have stated, the Police or the local authorities will not prevent the OMM being held in the lakes in the future. A fact proteted by English and European law which any individual, with an open mind and an interest in personal challenge should welcome.
> (In reply to Simon Overton)
>
> If Parsons had been more articulate it would have really helped.
>
> If Parsons had been more articulate it would have really helped.
Pot Kettle Black - go figure.
No in fact don't, because the tale you espouse is poisonous. The fact is you’re stuck in your wheelchair for half your life looking back on a past time you used to have a minor involvement in, daring to suggest some degree of credibility is conferred to your argument because you are a local.
Obviously your knowledge of these activities is immense – way beyond the 2500 participants, of which the majority (clearly not the two who where top 3 in a mountain marathon event with 60 odd competitors.) are misled by commercial interest.
If you check on the OMM forum you will see that “St” Mark Weir who, according to you “worked solidly to assist Police and rescue workers with the "evacuation" of runners from Honister. He was efficient and organised” actually caused a lot of the confusion telling competitors the wrong information regarding the cancellation of the event and what steps they should take.
Finally your statement that “The point is not over whether it is morally right for truth to be an objective point of reference for policing but that de facto it does not matter given the fact that in these cirumstances they are the "authority" and the organisers are not.” Is fundamentally wrong in English Law. A Police Officer had an opinion that is the only true fact you have stated, the Police or the local authorities will not prevent the OMM being held in the lakes in the future. A fact proteted by English and European law which any individual, with an open mind and an interest in personal challenge should welcome.
In reply to pat m:
Whilst Simon has taken a contrary view to most on here, which he is entitled to do - I'm appalled by the pure unpleasantness of your post. Having relatives and friends who are disabled I am more than aware of the challenges this imposes and for you to make a nasty little side swipe at someones lack of mobility is beneath contempt.
Whilst Simon has taken a contrary view to most on here, which he is entitled to do - I'm appalled by the pure unpleasantness of your post. Having relatives and friends who are disabled I am more than aware of the challenges this imposes and for you to make a nasty little side swipe at someones lack of mobility is beneath contempt.
In reply to Beowulf:
No he does not! I'm not looking forward to 100's of skinny men in lycra wandering around, looking for someone to lynch. Upsets the dogs, not enough meat on these fell runner types. Leave sleepy mockerkin out of it.
>
A little information for you guys, he lives in a small hamlet called Mockerkin No he does not! I'm not looking forward to 100's of skinny men in lycra wandering around, looking for someone to lynch. Upsets the dogs, not enough meat on these fell runner types. Leave sleepy mockerkin out of it.
In reply to IainRUK:
I watched it and it was unfortunate, Mike Parsons looked pretty defensive and was faced with professional managers and talkers - he was always going to come off second best and I'm fairly sure Border TV knew exactly what they were doing.
All sports have to engage the public in a positive way - climbing and shooting worked this out (the two main sports I'm engaged in) hence the BMC's and BASC's efforts.
Fell running would seem to be an obvious good thing - getting people outside, a bit of self reliance, making them fit, with a good dose of competition thrown in, yet these big events seem to be having a negative impact on the public perception of the sport, as you've pointed out the events have been banned in Snowdonia, I'd guess the final outcome of this weekend is still in the balance but there's a risk they are banned from the LDNP as well.
It's not enough for you to feel you're doing the right things - you have to demonstrate it and take Joe Public, the authorities and the media along with you. Being an amateur in a professional world is a tough act - I reckon if you want MM's to continue its worth thinking about how to manage the PR and HSE of what you are doing.
I watched it and it was unfortunate, Mike Parsons looked pretty defensive and was faced with professional managers and talkers - he was always going to come off second best and I'm fairly sure Border TV knew exactly what they were doing.
All sports have to engage the public in a positive way - climbing and shooting worked this out (the two main sports I'm engaged in) hence the BMC's and BASC's efforts.
Fell running would seem to be an obvious good thing - getting people outside, a bit of self reliance, making them fit, with a good dose of competition thrown in, yet these big events seem to be having a negative impact on the public perception of the sport, as you've pointed out the events have been banned in Snowdonia, I'd guess the final outcome of this weekend is still in the balance but there's a risk they are banned from the LDNP as well.
It's not enough for you to feel you're doing the right things - you have to demonstrate it and take Joe Public, the authorities and the media along with you. Being an amateur in a professional world is a tough act - I reckon if you want MM's to continue its worth thinking about how to manage the PR and HSE of what you are doing.
In reply to cander: Going by this level of exposure MM have a long and healthy future, all that is needed is a forward facing person to deal with the media, whilst the existing team can do what they do best, a storm in a tea cup really!
In reply to cander:OMM statements and liability
from my course on delictual (tort in england) liability a little while ago....
OMM have responsibility that no amount of waivers removes. The law does not let you sign away your own health and safety. End of story. Particularly important for people in dangerous jobs eg most industry 40-50 years ago.
OMM have a duty of care to competitors, this generally comes down to a reasonableness test. Were the decisions reasonable (which is not to say perfect)? did they follow best practise?
If for instance they were instructed by the police to cancel due to overstretched MR and police and refused.... I wouldn't like to be there insurer.
Taking money off people massively changes your duty of care, which is why instructors have insurance which I assume is occasionally claimed against.
i look forward to Slopers or other comments?!
from my course on delictual (tort in england) liability a little while ago....
OMM have responsibility that no amount of waivers removes. The law does not let you sign away your own health and safety. End of story. Particularly important for people in dangerous jobs eg most industry 40-50 years ago.
OMM have a duty of care to competitors, this generally comes down to a reasonableness test. Were the decisions reasonable (which is not to say perfect)? did they follow best practise?
If for instance they were instructed by the police to cancel due to overstretched MR and police and refused.... I wouldn't like to be there insurer.
Taking money off people massively changes your duty of care, which is why instructors have insurance which I assume is occasionally claimed against.
i look forward to Slopers or other comments?!
In reply to alasdair19:
If they were instructed by the Police through the correct channels yes, not if some random plod tried to run the show
> If for instance they were instructed by the police to cancel due to overstretched MR and police and refused.... I wouldn't like to be there insurer.
If they were instructed by the Police through the correct channels yes, not if some random plod tried to run the show
In reply to 3leggeddog:
As I said before - are you sure about that?
>The current event has an increased field and increased entry fee, ramped up no doubt to match other "adventure races".
Compared to what? The LAMM is £74 compared to the OMM's £85 (both for a pair). London marathon entry is around £50.
>entry fees approaching £100.
Well if you class £85 as approaching £100 then you are correct. Your cr*p about 3 figure entrance fees is just completely uninformed.
>Yet it still relies on volunteer marshalls and expects volunteers to risk themselves (mrts) to protect its profits!
Complete utter nonsense.
> (In reply to Simon Overton)
> [...]
>
> This is what I feel uncomfortable about. OMM is a profit making organisation,
> [...]
>
> This is what I feel uncomfortable about. OMM is a profit making organisation,
As I said before - are you sure about that?
>The current event has an increased field and increased entry fee, ramped up no doubt to match other "adventure races".
Compared to what? The LAMM is £74 compared to the OMM's £85 (both for a pair). London marathon entry is around £50.
>entry fees approaching £100.
Well if you class £85 as approaching £100 then you are correct. Your cr*p about 3 figure entrance fees is just completely uninformed.
>Yet it still relies on volunteer marshalls and expects volunteers to risk themselves (mrts) to protect its profits!
Complete utter nonsense.
In reply to pat m:
"If you check on the OMM forum you will see that “St” Mark Weir who, according to you “worked solidly to assist Police and rescue workers with the "evacuation" of runners from Honister. He was efficient and organised” actually caused a lot of the confusion telling competitors the wrong information regarding the cancellation of the event and what steps they should take"
should you be asserting that as fact or are you reporting what has been said on that site?
"If you check on the OMM forum you will see that “St” Mark Weir who, according to you “worked solidly to assist Police and rescue workers with the "evacuation" of runners from Honister. He was efficient and organised” actually caused a lot of the confusion telling competitors the wrong information regarding the cancellation of the event and what steps they should take"
should you be asserting that as fact or are you reporting what has been said on that site?
In reply to Anonymous: It does seem to be the view of many of the competitors, who, I think, were there.
In reply to alasdair19:
What makes you think Sloper has answered on here?
> (In reply to cander)OMM statements and liability
i look forward to Slopers or other comments?!What makes you think Sloper has answered on here?
In reply to johnj: In reply to johnj: Knowing many of those involved in the MRT and emergency services the position is this.
The police asked for the event to be cancelled as Borrowdale was flooding and the influx of 2000 people was not going to help.Eventually a large number of vehicles have been flooded and there removal has caused much damage to the fields in Seathwaite.
Clearly when the police asked for this event to be cancelled it was so their major operation in a flood area was not further hindered ,and no lives were put at risk from the serious floods,on the fells and in the valleys,it was nothing to do with peoples freedom to go in the hills.
I have my doubts if those taking part were very experienced ,if they were why leave their vehicles in an already flooding area,why attempt to run in conditions where you cant standup.All the local MRT memebers who had booked to take part withdrew because it was clearly not sensible to go ahead.
The organisers should have cancelled because the subsequent operation to remove 50 or 60 abandoned flooded vehicles greatly hindered police operations for that weekend.
The whole area was on the brink of flooding and emergency resources were stretched to the limit for all emergency services.
Both MRT teams advised the organisers to cancel the event.
I cant say much more, who with any sense would have the main car park and reception centre in a a flooding area which eventually ended up under several feet of water.
I dont think this was responsible.
The organisers were so disorganised they were unable to tell the police who was on the hill and who wasnt,this is not acceptable in terms of safety for an organised event.
However I do think the local garages and recovery agents have had a very profitable weekend !!
The police asked for the event to be cancelled as Borrowdale was flooding and the influx of 2000 people was not going to help.Eventually a large number of vehicles have been flooded and there removal has caused much damage to the fields in Seathwaite.
Clearly when the police asked for this event to be cancelled it was so their major operation in a flood area was not further hindered ,and no lives were put at risk from the serious floods,on the fells and in the valleys,it was nothing to do with peoples freedom to go in the hills.
I have my doubts if those taking part were very experienced ,if they were why leave their vehicles in an already flooding area,why attempt to run in conditions where you cant standup.All the local MRT memebers who had booked to take part withdrew because it was clearly not sensible to go ahead.
The organisers should have cancelled because the subsequent operation to remove 50 or 60 abandoned flooded vehicles greatly hindered police operations for that weekend.
The whole area was on the brink of flooding and emergency resources were stretched to the limit for all emergency services.
Both MRT teams advised the organisers to cancel the event.
I cant say much more, who with any sense would have the main car park and reception centre in a a flooding area which eventually ended up under several feet of water.
I dont think this was responsible.
The organisers were so disorganised they were unable to tell the police who was on the hill and who wasnt,this is not acceptable in terms of safety for an organised event.
However I do think the local garages and recovery agents have had a very profitable weekend !!
In reply to Gael Force:
I see, so the organisation staff dropped a major clanger, but even in the fubar situtation at the end of the day all coped well
what do they say, something like
'experience is only the sum of your mistakes'
I see, so the organisation staff dropped a major clanger, but even in the fubar situtation at the end of the day all coped well
what do they say, something like
'experience is only the sum of your mistakes'
In reply to James Jackson:
You're looking at my climbing over far too short a time scale.
Is this 3.5 year nation wide? Anyway yeah, they back dated the rule to me! They've always had doctoral training funds, which as long as your advisor doesn't pilfer as a `bench fee' as in Chemisty, or spend on sending you to Hawaii, they can spend on what they want, like extending your studies.
You're looking at my climbing over far too short a time scale.
Is this 3.5 year nation wide? Anyway yeah, they back dated the rule to me! They've always had doctoral training funds, which as long as your advisor doesn't pilfer as a `bench fee' as in Chemisty, or spend on sending you to Hawaii, they can spend on what they want, like extending your studies.
In reply to Gael Force:
Sorry, I haven't got the time to reply to this in detail just, but a lot of the things you are saying here are wrong and ill-informed and are sweeping statements. I will reply to some of them later when I have some time.
Just in case anyone takes your word for gospel.
Heike
Sorry, I haven't got the time to reply to this in detail just, but a lot of the things you are saying here are wrong and ill-informed and are sweeping statements. I will reply to some of them later when I have some time.
Just in case anyone takes your word for gospel.
Heike
In reply to Gael Force:
This was posted on the OMM forum:
Just to let you know that I have spoken to Cumbria Police in my MR regional capacity and as far as I am concerned the Police did not advise that the event should be cancelled - they did advise of the incoming adverse weather. They do not have the powers to cancel events such as the OMM and therefore can only respond to the emergency '999' calls as they come in - this they do pretty effectively and MRT are brought in very quickly - we work very closely with the Police and they are happy to task MRT when our skills a re required (particularly flood and swift water rescue).
I hope that this clears it up - MR stance on the topic remains the same - MR do not advise event organisers to cancel such events. That is their call based on the information they have.
Kind regards
Richard Warren
Chairman LDSAMRA
> (In reply to johnj) In reply to johnj: Knowing many of those involved in the MRT and emergency services the position is this.
> The police asked for the event to be cancelled
> The police asked for the event to be cancelled
This was posted on the OMM forum:
Just to let you know that I have spoken to Cumbria Police in my MR regional capacity and as far as I am concerned the Police did not advise that the event should be cancelled - they did advise of the incoming adverse weather. They do not have the powers to cancel events such as the OMM and therefore can only respond to the emergency '999' calls as they come in - this they do pretty effectively and MRT are brought in very quickly - we work very closely with the Police and they are happy to task MRT when our skills a re required (particularly flood and swift water rescue).
I hope that this clears it up - MR stance on the topic remains the same - MR do not advise event organisers to cancel such events. That is their call based on the information they have.
Kind regards
Richard Warren
Chairman LDSAMRA
In reply to oui oui: Supt Slater said: "We were disappointed that the event went ahead despite the advice of ourselves and the mountain rescue teams.
"Up until Thursday and Friday, police and mountain rescue advised that with the atrocious weather and the fact that the terrain is poor at the best of times, the event really should not go ahead.
"Everybody is just relieved we did not have any serious injuries."
Quote from the BBC ,what planet are you on Mr Warren
"Up until Thursday and Friday, police and mountain rescue advised that with the atrocious weather and the fact that the terrain is poor at the best of times, the event really should not go ahead.
"Everybody is just relieved we did not have any serious injuries."
Quote from the BBC ,what planet are you on Mr Warren
In reply to Gael Force:
If they needed to ask such a question like that maybe they're an alien from planet Zarg, who asked this question?
> (In reply to oui oui)
>
> Quote from the BBC ,what planet are you on Mr Warren
>
> Quote from the BBC ,what planet are you on Mr Warren
If they needed to ask such a question like that maybe they're an alien from planet Zarg, who asked this question?
In reply to oui oui: Thanks for posting that.
In reply to Gael Force: Which has been subsequently denied by MRT and the OMM organisers...
In reply to Gael Force:
That's an interesting statement! The parking fields did not flood. You have to demonstrate your experience of long distance events to enter the event. You could stand up in those conditions. There were plenty of MR members still out competing on saturday. Were you there or is this just heresay?
> (In reply to johnj) In reply to johnj:
> I have my doubts if those taking part were very experienced ,if they were why leave their vehicles in an already flooding area,why attempt to run in conditions where you cant standup.All the local MRT memebers who had booked to take part withdrew because it was clearly not sensible to go ahead.
> I have my doubts if those taking part were very experienced ,if they were why leave their vehicles in an already flooding area,why attempt to run in conditions where you cant standup.All the local MRT memebers who had booked to take part withdrew because it was clearly not sensible to go ahead.
That's an interesting statement! The parking fields did not flood. You have to demonstrate your experience of long distance events to enter the event. You could stand up in those conditions. There were plenty of MR members still out competing on saturday. Were you there or is this just heresay?
In reply to Gael Force:
When did they ask for it to be cancelled? According to Mike Parsons they didn't.
I am not sure why you doubt people's experience, but many reports on the OMM forums state that those who parked where they were supposed to had muddy conditions but no flooded cars and that the flooded cars were where people were asked not park (particularly on road verges).
>why attempt to run in conditions where you cant standup.
Except hundreds of pairs did manage to run and finish the day.
Not according to the chair of MRT association for the Lakes.
Which just displays your lack of understanding of such an event.
> > The police asked for the event to be cancelled as Borrowdale was flooding and the influx of 2000 people was not going to help.Eventually a large number of vehicles have been flooded and there removal has caused much damage to the fields in Seathwaite.
When did they ask for it to be cancelled? According to Mike Parsons they didn't.
> I have my doubts if those taking part were very experienced ,if they were why leave their vehicles in an already flooding area,
I am not sure why you doubt people's experience, but many reports on the OMM forums state that those who parked where they were supposed to had muddy conditions but no flooded cars and that the flooded cars were where people were asked not park (particularly on road verges).
>why attempt to run in conditions where you cant standup.
Except hundreds of pairs did manage to run and finish the day.
> Both MRT teams advised the organisers to cancel the event.
Not according to the chair of MRT association for the Lakes.
> The organisers were so disorganised they were unable to tell the police who was on the hill and who wasnt,this is not acceptable in terms of safety for an organised event.
Which just displays your lack of understanding of such an event.
In reply to Gael Force:
So much incorrect with this I don't know where to start but you weren't there were you?
">why attempt to run in conditions where you cant standup"
If that was the case how did I (and many many others) reach the overnight camp after safely completing our courses. In my and my partners case 6 hours on the long course
">I cant say much more, who with any sense would have the main car park and reception centre in a a flooding area which eventually ended up under several feet of water" ">operation to remove 50 or 60 abandoned flooded vehicles"
Not true. I was at Seathwaite late Saturday afternoon and Sunday and at most a dozen cars parked on the road were flooded. NONE of the cars parked on the field were affected by flooding, indeed the field remained relatively dry.
I could go on but to be honest your post is utter sh*te.
> (In reply to johnj) In reply to johnj: Knowing many of those involved in the MRT and emergency services the position is this.
> The police asked for the event to be cancelled as Borrowdale was flooding and the influx of 2000 people was not going to help.Eventually a large number of vehicles have been flooded and there removal has caused much damage to the fields in Seathwaite.
> Clearly when the police asked for this event to be cancelled it was so their major operation in a flood area was not further hindered ,and no lives were put at risk from the serious floods,on the fells and in the valleys,it was nothing to do with peoples freedom to go in the hills.
>
> I have my doubts if those taking part were very experienced ,if they were why leave their vehicles in an already flooding area,why attempt to run in conditions where you cant standup.All the local MRT memebers who had booked to take part withdrew because it was clearly not sensible to go ahead.
> The organisers should have cancelled because the subsequent operation to remove 50 or 60 abandoned flooded vehicles greatly hindered police operations for that weekend.
> The police asked for the event to be cancelled as Borrowdale was flooding and the influx of 2000 people was not going to help.Eventually a large number of vehicles have been flooded and there removal has caused much damage to the fields in Seathwaite.
> Clearly when the police asked for this event to be cancelled it was so their major operation in a flood area was not further hindered ,and no lives were put at risk from the serious floods,on the fells and in the valleys,it was nothing to do with peoples freedom to go in the hills.
>
> I have my doubts if those taking part were very experienced ,if they were why leave their vehicles in an already flooding area,why attempt to run in conditions where you cant standup.All the local MRT memebers who had booked to take part withdrew because it was clearly not sensible to go ahead.
> The organisers should have cancelled because the subsequent operation to remove 50 or 60 abandoned flooded vehicles greatly hindered police operations for that weekend.
> The whole area was on the brink of flooding and emergency resources were stretched to the limit for all emergency services.
> Both MRT teams advised the organisers to cancel the event.
> I cant say much more, who with any sense would have the main car park and reception centre in a a flooding area which eventually ended up under several feet of water.
> I dont think this was responsible.
> The organisers were so disorganised they were unable to tell the police who was on the hill and who wasnt,this is not acceptable in terms of safety for an organised event.
> However I do think the local garages and recovery agents have had a very profitable weekend !!
> Both MRT teams advised the organisers to cancel the event.
> I cant say much more, who with any sense would have the main car park and reception centre in a a flooding area which eventually ended up under several feet of water.
> I dont think this was responsible.
> The organisers were so disorganised they were unable to tell the police who was on the hill and who wasnt,this is not acceptable in terms of safety for an organised event.
> However I do think the local garages and recovery agents have had a very profitable weekend !!
So much incorrect with this I don't know where to start but you weren't there were you?
">why attempt to run in conditions where you cant standup"
If that was the case how did I (and many many others) reach the overnight camp after safely completing our courses. In my and my partners case 6 hours on the long course
">I cant say much more, who with any sense would have the main car park and reception centre in a a flooding area which eventually ended up under several feet of water" ">operation to remove 50 or 60 abandoned flooded vehicles"
Not true. I was at Seathwaite late Saturday afternoon and Sunday and at most a dozen cars parked on the road were flooded. NONE of the cars parked on the field were affected by flooding, indeed the field remained relatively dry.
I could go on but to be honest your post is utter sh*te.
In reply to Richard123: The field remained relatively dry ??
Are you joking ?
Are you joking ?
In reply to Gael Force:
Well it was dry enough to camp in.
Me and my partner did on the saturday night.
Can I ask, were you actually there?
> (In reply to Richard123) The field remained relatively dry ??
> Are you joking ?
> Are you joking ?
Well it was dry enough to camp in.
Me and my partner did on the saturday night.
Can I ask, were you actually there?
In reply to Gael Force: Actually having just looked at your profile i can't believe what you have written. So badly informed, assumption and you are an outdoorsy type too. It's no wonder the uniformed layman/journos jumped upon this and ran with it if folk like you are coming out with such utter tripe. For the zillionth time, nothing actually happened. If anything the whole weekend just demostrates that the event has got too big and needs stripping down to something more in keeping with the traditions of fell running events. Low key.
In reply to Gael Force:
No. I spent the night in the field and compared to the surrounding areas it was "relatively" dry (you do understand what relative means?). There was no more than an inch of patchy standing water on it during Saturday evening and this had all dissipated come 7.00am Sunday.
> (In reply to Richard123) The field remained relatively dry ??
> Are you joking ?
> Are you joking ?
No. I spent the night in the field and compared to the surrounding areas it was "relatively" dry (you do understand what relative means?). There was no more than an inch of patchy standing water on it during Saturday evening and this had all dissipated come 7.00am Sunday.
In reply to oui oui:
That's not actually true. In a race last year a MRT advised a race be changed. They were on the summit at the time, the RO was in the field at the start, rightly so, he changed the route. This is one of the few times I've agreed with a race shortened. Mainly because good relations with MRT's is important for fell running, they supprot many events, so to ignore a person of standing when they are on the summit and you were in the field in the valley would be fool hardy. Had a person been killed I think the RO would have taken a hammering at any inquest.
> (In reply to Gael Force)
> [...]
>
> - MR stance on the topic remains the same - MR do not advise event organisers to cancel such events. That is their call based on the information they have.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Richard Warren
> Chairman LDSAMRA
> [...]
>
> - MR stance on the topic remains the same - MR do not advise event organisers to cancel such events. That is their call based on the information they have.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Richard Warren
> Chairman LDSAMRA
That's not actually true. In a race last year a MRT advised a race be changed. They were on the summit at the time, the RO was in the field at the start, rightly so, he changed the route. This is one of the few times I've agreed with a race shortened. Mainly because good relations with MRT's is important for fell running, they supprot many events, so to ignore a person of standing when they are on the summit and you were in the field in the valley would be fool hardy. Had a person been killed I think the RO would have taken a hammering at any inquest.
In reply to iain roberto: No of course nothing happened and it was sunny all weekend ,and everybody was sunbathing.
I agree with you re the event being too big,cant understand why any climber would want to take part,its not why i go out on the hills .
Maybe you arent a climber though ,do you just take part in these events and wear nice shiny lycra
I agree with you re the event being too big,cant understand why any climber would want to take part,its not why i go out on the hills .
Maybe you arent a climber though ,do you just take part in these events and wear nice shiny lycra
In reply to Gael Force:
Right out of the Mystery Toad school of insults, Superb!
But yes, wearing lycra is one of the pleasures of fell running. A few times I've walked into a pub for a pint after a run, 2 steps in, people look, and you think 'Shit forgot I'm wearing lyrca'.
> (
> Maybe you arent a climber though ,do you just take part in these events and wear nice shiny lycra
> Maybe you arent a climber though ,do you just take part in these events and wear nice shiny lycra
Right out of the Mystery Toad school of insults, Superb!
But yes, wearing lycra is one of the pleasures of fell running. A few times I've walked into a pub for a pint after a run, 2 steps in, people look, and you think 'Shit forgot I'm wearing lyrca'.
In reply to IainRUK:
I am assuming you mean the Borrowdale? If so, the MRT weren't a local team but from the Peak District. But yes, the organiser was recommended/advised that he alter the course (Esk Hause direct to Sty Head rather than via the summit of Scafell Pike). As it happened, by the time the race started, conditions had improved so it could have been OK for the normal course to be run.
ALC
I am assuming you mean the Borrowdale? If so, the MRT weren't a local team but from the Peak District. But yes, the organiser was recommended/advised that he alter the course (Esk Hause direct to Sty Head rather than via the summit of Scafell Pike). As it happened, by the time the race started, conditions had improved so it could have been OK for the normal course to be run.
ALC
In reply to iain roberto:
For the zillionth time, nothing actually happened.
Yes it did!! Even if the reporting had been entirely wrong (and it wasn't), the fact it was reported means something happened. At the absolute minimum fell running should see that it needs to communicate better. The way it interacts with everyone else will determine whether it is allowed to continue in the way it has in past. I just listened to the organiser on Radio 2. He was appalling - defensive, limp and inarticulate.
If anything the whole weekend just demostrates that the event has got too big and needs stripping down to something more in keeping with the traditions of fell running events. Low key.
Yes.
For the zillionth time, nothing actually happened.
Yes it did!! Even if the reporting had been entirely wrong (and it wasn't), the fact it was reported means something happened. At the absolute minimum fell running should see that it needs to communicate better. The way it interacts with everyone else will determine whether it is allowed to continue in the way it has in past. I just listened to the organiser on Radio 2. He was appalling - defensive, limp and inarticulate.
If anything the whole weekend just demostrates that the event has got too big and needs stripping down to something more in keeping with the traditions of fell running events. Low key.
Yes.
In reply to Gael Force: You've just put the debate back three days. If you are taking what the press (and, it seems, the police) as gospel,then you can not have any serious understanding of what happened. Please talk to some of the competitors and read what the organisers and mountain rescue people say before posting again. The situation as portrayed in the media simply did not occur, and much more important and interesting issues are being clouded by having to go over old ground.
In reply to MG:
How do you know? were you there?
The reason people are getting their knickers in a twist, is because with the exception of a handful of flooded cars and a couple of people getting into trouble, the media reported on a non-story.
When I heard someone at the HQ payphone saying the event had made the national news, my reaction was "Eh? Why??".
There was no mass rescue of people in the Lakes this weekend.
> (In reply to iain roberto)
> For the zillionth time, nothing actually happened.
>
>
> Yes it did!!
> For the zillionth time, nothing actually happened.
>
>
> Yes it did!!
How do you know? were you there?
The reason people are getting their knickers in a twist, is because with the exception of a handful of flooded cars and a couple of people getting into trouble, the media reported on a non-story.
When I heard someone at the HQ payphone saying the event had made the national news, my reaction was "Eh? Why??".
There was no mass rescue of people in the Lakes this weekend.
In reply to MG:
Interestingly the other organiser (Jen ?) was being interviewed on R5 yesterday and put her points across very well. So well that the interviewer, who was so well informed that they called the OMM the "Official" Mountain Marathon, was beginning to sound extremely embarrassed and cut the interview. One question was about making a donation to MRT to cover the "hundreds of thousands of pounds that the rescue cost" - the answer was that the OMM did make such a donation anyway but that this year the donation would be larger.
Is the OMM too big? *I* think so but others might not.
Should the event have gone ahead? Debatable, depends on whether you are adventure minded or prefer to be wrapped up in cotton wool.
Has there been a lot of ill informed debate and opinion spouted? Definitely!!
ALC
Interestingly the other organiser (Jen ?) was being interviewed on R5 yesterday and put her points across very well. So well that the interviewer, who was so well informed that they called the OMM the "Official" Mountain Marathon, was beginning to sound extremely embarrassed and cut the interview. One question was about making a donation to MRT to cover the "hundreds of thousands of pounds that the rescue cost" - the answer was that the OMM did make such a donation anyway but that this year the donation would be larger.
Is the OMM too big? *I* think so but others might not.
Should the event have gone ahead? Debatable, depends on whether you are adventure minded or prefer to be wrapped up in cotton wool.
Has there been a lot of ill informed debate and opinion spouted? Definitely!!
ALC
In reply to MG:
At the absolute minimum fell running should see that it needs to communicate better. The way it interacts with everyone else will determine whether it is allowed to continue in the way it has in past.
I sort of agree, but it makes me very uncomfortable that I should have to defend my sport because others have misrepresented or misunderstood it. Maybe there should be equal onus on them to find out some facts before spouting off.
At the absolute minimum fell running should see that it needs to communicate better. The way it interacts with everyone else will determine whether it is allowed to continue in the way it has in past.
I sort of agree, but it makes me very uncomfortable that I should have to defend my sport because others have misrepresented or misunderstood it. Maybe there should be equal onus on them to find out some facts before spouting off.
In reply to a lakeland climber:
yeah. I know conditions improved but I think Scoffer had to go with the call from the MRT on the summit.
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>
> I am assuming you mean the Borrowdale? If so, the MRT weren't a local team but from the Peak District. But yes, the organiser was recommended/advised that he alter the course (Esk Hause direct to Sty Head rather than via the summit of Scafell Pike). As it happened, by the time the race started, conditions had improved so it could have been OK for the normal course to be run.
>
> ALC
>
> I am assuming you mean the Borrowdale? If so, the MRT weren't a local team but from the Peak District. But yes, the organiser was recommended/advised that he alter the course (Esk Hause direct to Sty Head rather than via the summit of Scafell Pike). As it happened, by the time the race started, conditions had improved so it could have been OK for the normal course to be run.
>
> ALC
yeah. I know conditions improved but I think Scoffer had to go with the call from the MRT on the summit.
In reply to oui oui:
Read my post. My whole point was that this is irrelevant given the reporting and lack clear explanation from the organisers.
Although there clearly was quite a mess whatever you claim, someone up thread pointed out the large proportion of Cumbria emergency service vehicles involved. Actively denying problems that actually occurred is doing fell running (and associated activities) no favours.
> (In reply to MG)
>>
> There was no mass rescue of people in the Lakes this weekend.
> There was no mass rescue of people in the Lakes this weekend.
Read my post. My whole point was that this is irrelevant given the reporting and lack clear explanation from the organisers.
Although there clearly was quite a mess whatever you claim, someone up thread pointed out the large proportion of Cumbria emergency service vehicles involved. Actively denying problems that actually occurred is doing fell running (and associated activities) no favours.
In reply to IainRUK: Being too big, the same could be said about many other large sporting event?
Ian.
Ian.
In reply to dmhigg:
You want the press to report facts?!
What planet are you on? The story is more important than the facts.
ALC
> Maybe there should be equal onus on them to find out some facts before spouting off.
You want the press to report facts?!
What planet are you on? The story is more important than the facts.
ALC
In reply to dmhigg:
>
That's life. There is actually another option - drastically reduce the size of the event so it wouldn't attract attention - which most people seem to support for a variety of reasons.
>
> I sort of agree, but it makes me very uncomfortable that I should have to defend my sport because others have misrepresented or misunderstood it. Maybe there should be equal onus on them to find out some facts before spouting off.
That's life. There is actually another option - drastically reduce the size of the event so it wouldn't attract attention - which most people seem to support for a variety of reasons.
In reply to indalo:
what is find most amusing is that so many "outdoors" people thought is would be ok to park their cars in the wettest vally in the UK, when it had been raining hard for 2 days with rivers almost bursting....and a month of rain forecast in the next 24 hours.....
what is find most amusing is that so many "outdoors" people thought is would be ok to park their cars in the wettest vally in the UK, when it had been raining hard for 2 days with rivers almost bursting....and a month of rain forecast in the next 24 hours.....
In reply to joe king: It was okay. Read the posts. Those who parked on the verge against the organisers' instructions were flooded. The vast majority parked in the fields and were fine.
In reply to MG:
You're right. Like many others I'm not an OMM fan because of its size. But nor do I feel that I should have to defend myself ice climbing, winter mountaineering, mountain bike racing, all of which events have been in the past reported as irresponsible by outside agencies.
> (In reply to dmhigg)
> [...]
>
> That's life. There is actually another option - drastically reduce the size of the event so it wouldn't attract attention - which most people seem to support for a variety of reasons.
> [...]
>
> That's life. There is actually another option - drastically reduce the size of the event so it wouldn't attract attention - which most people seem to support for a variety of reasons.
You're right. Like many others I'm not an OMM fan because of its size. But nor do I feel that I should have to defend myself ice climbing, winter mountaineering, mountain bike racing, all of which events have been in the past reported as irresponsible by outside agencies.
In reply to MG: They'll support it as long as they get their entry accepted. Which most wouldn't if the race was reduced in size. It'd be like trying to get an entry to the HPM - i.e. flipping impossible!
In reply to MG:
Lets put it this way; earlier in the year my brother's street had more flood damage than what occured at the OMM, and that never made regional news let alone national news.
> (In reply to oui oui)
> [...]
>
> Although there clearly was quite a mess whatever you claim,
> [...]
>
> Although there clearly was quite a mess whatever you claim,
Lets put it this way; earlier in the year my brother's street had more flood damage than what occured at the OMM, and that never made regional news let alone national news.
In reply to dmhigg:
I think they do need defending, whether we like it or not. This means we have to be rather careful about what we are defending though. They are only really defensible if they are sustainable and do not unduly affect the rest of society. This brings us back to issues like the size of mass events, where 4x4s should be allowed and who pays for footpath repairs.
> (In reply to MG)
But nor do I feel that I should have to defend myself ice climbing, winter mountaineering, mountain bike racing, all of which events have been in the past reported as irresponsible by outside agencies.I think they do need defending, whether we like it or not. This means we have to be rather careful about what we are defending though. They are only really defensible if they are sustainable and do not unduly affect the rest of society. This brings us back to issues like the size of mass events, where 4x4s should be allowed and who pays for footpath repairs.
In reply to MG: If one thing is to be taken from this, mistakes at all levels were made, surely to learn from this and put the correct procedures in place will only make the event much better in future years.
In reply to johnj:
Agreed. I think others should adopt that view, rather than the macho "we are all really experienced and nothing happened, honest" type attitude.
> (In reply to MG) If one thing is to be taken from this, mistakes at all levels were made, surely to learn from this and put the correct procedures in place will only make the event much better in future years.
Agreed. I think others should adopt that view, rather than the macho "we are all really experienced and nothing happened, honest" type attitude.
In reply to Gael Force: I just read your post for the first time.
"The police asked for the event to be cancelled as Borrowdale" - this is hotly debated - some in the police say this is not the case, and they are not a position to advise this.
"All the local MRT memebers who had booked to take part withdrew because it was clearly not sensible to go ahead."
I'd love to know what you base this statement on? The leader of cockermouth MRT completed day one of the race!
"Both MRT teams advised the organisers to cancel the event."
Both? Which teams? Wasdale certainly didn't? Cockermouth clearly didn't as their leader was racing?
"The police asked for the event to be cancelled as Borrowdale" - this is hotly debated - some in the police say this is not the case, and they are not a position to advise this.
"All the local MRT memebers who had booked to take part withdrew because it was clearly not sensible to go ahead."
I'd love to know what you base this statement on? The leader of cockermouth MRT completed day one of the race!
"Both MRT teams advised the organisers to cancel the event."
Both? Which teams? Wasdale certainly didn't? Cockermouth clearly didn't as their leader was racing?
In reply to MG:
But what if those vehicles were called in unnecessarily eg from over-hyped slate mine owners?
More to the point do you not actually find it disturbing that a whole county should be overwhelmed by an event requiring 13 rescued?
> Although there clearly was quite a mess whatever you claim, someone up thread pointed out the large proportion of Cumbria emergency service vehicles involved. Actively denying problems that actually occurred is doing fell running (and associated activities) no favours.
But what if those vehicles were called in unnecessarily eg from over-hyped slate mine owners?
More to the point do you not actually find it disturbing that a whole county should be overwhelmed by an event requiring 13 rescued?
In reply to MJH:
I am not sure that changes anything.
I do slightly, yes.
> (In reply to MG)
> [...]
>
> But what if those vehicles were called in unnecessarily eg from over-hyped slate mine owners?
> [...]
>
> But what if those vehicles were called in unnecessarily eg from over-hyped slate mine owners?
I am not sure that changes anything.
>
> More to the point do you not actually find it disturbing that a whole county should be overwhelmed by an event requiring 13 rescued?
> More to the point do you not actually find it disturbing that a whole county should be overwhelmed by an event requiring 13 rescued?
I do slightly, yes.
In reply to IainRUK:
That's why you have to carry the MOntane Featherlite Trousers you know. You can almost get away with them being normal trousers if you don't cinch down the legs
Regards
djb
> But yes, wearing lycra is one of the pleasures of fell running. A few times I've walked into a pub for a pint after a run, 2 steps in, people look, and you think 'Shit forgot I'm wearing lyrca'.
That's why you have to carry the MOntane Featherlite Trousers you know. You can almost get away with them being normal trousers if you don't cinch down the legs
Regards
djb
In reply to MG:
Is there a point at which it would be more dangerous to have fewer people. Given there are 2500 making their way from x to y, even over different routes, then there are likley to be a number of people in a given area to assist other competitors should there be a problem. With many fewer, there could be no-one around for several miles. Did having 4 people being able to assist the runner who was injured and in difficulty on the scene very quickly assist or diminish safety? Your first backup for safety is your partner. Quite a lot else comes from other competitors around you...
Regards
djb
Is there a point at which it would be more dangerous to have fewer people. Given there are 2500 making their way from x to y, even over different routes, then there are likley to be a number of people in a given area to assist other competitors should there be a problem. With many fewer, there could be no-one around for several miles. Did having 4 people being able to assist the runner who was injured and in difficulty on the scene very quickly assist or diminish safety? Your first backup for safety is your partner. Quite a lot else comes from other competitors around you...
Regards
djb
In reply to Anonymous:
That's really not he issue for me. People choose to take part knowing the risks. That's up to them. It is the effects on others and environment that concern me.
> (In reply to MG)
>
> Is there a point at which it would be more dangerous to have fewer people. Given there are 2500 making their way from x to y, even over different routes, then there are likley to be a number of people in a given area to assist other competitors should there be a problem. With many fewer, there could be no-one around for several miles. Did having 4 people being able to assist the runner who was injured and in difficulty on the scene very quickly assist or diminish safety? Your first backup for safety is your partner. Quite a lot else comes from other competitors around you...
>
> Is there a point at which it would be more dangerous to have fewer people. Given there are 2500 making their way from x to y, even over different routes, then there are likley to be a number of people in a given area to assist other competitors should there be a problem. With many fewer, there could be no-one around for several miles. Did having 4 people being able to assist the runner who was injured and in difficulty on the scene very quickly assist or diminish safety? Your first backup for safety is your partner. Quite a lot else comes from other competitors around you...
That's really not he issue for me. People choose to take part knowing the risks. That's up to them. It is the effects on others and environment that concern me.
> Regards
>
> djb
>
> djb
In reply to Al Evans: i was just conscious that he occasionally posts and he or somebody else may correct my interpretation of english law which i would find interesting
In reply to MG:
E.g.
The effect on other might be based on whether the MR attends someone in a MM who would otherwise be helped to safety by other competitors, or someone who is out by themselves. The ability of other around you may therefore have an effect on others. Part of the risk equation comes from the size of the event and the number of others around you. You don't rely on it, but it has to be part of the equation. Otherwise walking to the pole by yourself would be no more dangerous than doing it as a pair or indeed walking down the street with others milling around you.
I don't know enough about the environment issues to comment. Would having two different events on the same weekend at different locations be more or less environmentally sound? Would having the same event, but in a smaller format two weekends running be more or less environmentally sound.
E.g.
The effect on other might be based on whether the MR attends someone in a MM who would otherwise be helped to safety by other competitors, or someone who is out by themselves. The ability of other around you may therefore have an effect on others. Part of the risk equation comes from the size of the event and the number of others around you. You don't rely on it, but it has to be part of the equation. Otherwise walking to the pole by yourself would be no more dangerous than doing it as a pair or indeed walking down the street with others milling around you.
I don't know enough about the environment issues to comment. Would having two different events on the same weekend at different locations be more or less environmentally sound? Would having the same event, but in a smaller format two weekends running be more or less environmentally sound.
In reply to oui oui:
interesting
We asked Mark Weir from Honister Slate Mine not to transport competitors down to Cockermouth but he continued to do so under his own initiative. This made it more difficult for us to account for them. He had also complained that competitors were taking shelter in his café, eating their own food and preventing his other customers from getting access to the cafe. We offered, there and then, to pay for all food and drink consumed by competitors.
Was he trying to make space for paying customers then?
interesting
We asked Mark Weir from Honister Slate Mine not to transport competitors down to Cockermouth but he continued to do so under his own initiative. This made it more difficult for us to account for them. He had also complained that competitors were taking shelter in his café, eating their own food and preventing his other customers from getting access to the cafe. We offered, there and then, to pay for all food and drink consumed by competitors.
Was he trying to make space for paying customers then?
of course, all this could have been sorted had the competitors been wearing personal locator beacons
In reply to Nevis-the-cat: Next year everyone should be issued with a giant arrow with "HERE" written on it, to be carried overhead pointing downwards at all times.
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:
you mean like wet OMM competitors?... or other people out for a pleasant day in the Lakes?
Due to their £10 minimum purchase policy on debit card transactions, me and my partner got a very expensive cuppa from his cafe. I'm sure we weren't the only ones.
For those interested, the OMM site has now posted times for all classes. I think a few split times are due to go on though.
> (In reply to oui oui)
> [...]
>
>
> Was he trying to make space for paying customers then?
> [...]
>
>
> Was he trying to make space for paying customers then?
you mean like wet OMM competitors?... or other people out for a pleasant day in the Lakes?
Due to their £10 minimum purchase policy on debit card transactions, me and my partner got a very expensive cuppa from his cafe. I'm sure we weren't the only ones.
For those interested, the OMM site has now posted times for all classes. I think a few split times are due to go on though.
In reply to oui oui:
Yes, but you've paid - now sod off!
> (In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat)
> [...]
>
> you mean like wet OMM competitors?... or other people out for a pleasant day in the Lakes?
>
> Due to their £10 minimum purchase policy on debit card transactions, me and my partner got a very expensive cuppa from his cafe. I'm sure we weren't the only ones.
> [...]
>
> you mean like wet OMM competitors?... or other people out for a pleasant day in the Lakes?
>
> Due to their £10 minimum purchase policy on debit card transactions, me and my partner got a very expensive cuppa from his cafe. I'm sure we weren't the only ones.
Yes, but you've paid - now sod off!
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:
The quote from the OMM statement that interests me is this one:
"Thanks to the SI system, by the end of Saturday night we knew the whereabouts of all but about 30 teams"
So where did the BBC get the figure of over 1000 'not accounted for' from??..... Clearly not from the OMM organisers.
The quote from the OMM statement that interests me is this one:
"Thanks to the SI system, by the end of Saturday night we knew the whereabouts of all but about 30 teams"
So where did the BBC get the figure of over 1000 'not accounted for' from??..... Clearly not from the OMM organisers.
In reply to oui oui:
I had a thought of where - but I've SLATED it.
> (In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat)
>
> The quote from the OMM statement that interests me is this one:
>
> "Thanks to the SI system, by the end of Saturday night we knew the whereabouts of all but about 30 teams"
>
> So where did the BBC get the figure of over 1000 'not accounted for' from??..... Clearly not from the OMM organisers.
>
> The quote from the OMM statement that interests me is this one:
>
> "Thanks to the SI system, by the end of Saturday night we knew the whereabouts of all but about 30 teams"
>
> So where did the BBC get the figure of over 1000 'not accounted for' from??..... Clearly not from the OMM organisers.
I had a thought of where - but I've SLATED it.
In reply to Beowulf: i'm still in favour of every team having to take a lightweight portable slate mine.
In reply to Snorkers:
I've been sufficiently riled and have spent the last 10 minutes crafting a five point complaint about the low quality of BBC journalism in this event on the BBC site. I feel much better now.
> It does seem, as a former competitor (Brecon Beacons, 2004) that the BBC and other media bodies remain shamefully clueless about mountain sports. (Then again, perhaps we could have deduced that from the Julia Bradbury series.)
>
> Anyway, for those sufficiently riled and license-fee paying (that's me out since last year) people, here is an address for venting of spleen:
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/
>
>
> Anyway, for those sufficiently riled and license-fee paying (that's me out since last year) people, here is an address for venting of spleen:
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/
>
I've been sufficiently riled and have spent the last 10 minutes crafting a five point complaint about the low quality of BBC journalism in this event on the BBC site. I feel much better now.
In reply to Duncan I:
Nice one. Although I suspect that the anger of a few hundred people whose relatives were led by the BBC to believe they might be dying on a hillside somewhere over the weekend will take second place to binning over 2000 complaints (and counting) about the uber-juvenile Woss and Bland.
(OK, so I'm extrapolating wildly - that's three complaints re. the OMM that I personally know of, against over 2000 for Woss and his buddy reported on the BBC news website.)
Nice one. Although I suspect that the anger of a few hundred people whose relatives were led by the BBC to believe they might be dying on a hillside somewhere over the weekend will take second place to binning over 2000 complaints (and counting) about the uber-juvenile Woss and Bland.
(OK, so I'm extrapolating wildly - that's three complaints re. the OMM that I personally know of, against over 2000 for Woss and his buddy reported on the BBC news website.)
In reply to Snorkers:
>
Isn't it more like 20 000 now?
> (In reply to Duncan I)
>
>binning over 2000 complaints (and counting) about the uber-juvenile Woss and Bland.>
>
Isn't it more like 20 000 now?
In reply to oui oui: 2008:63 25/10/08 (2.20 p.m.) - Saturday http://www.wasdale-mountain-rescue.org.uk/callouts~2008.htm
Telephone call from Keswick MRT after they had been contacted by Ambulance control (Keswick were already dealing with 3 incidents related to the same event ( Original Mountain Marathon). Female competitor in a team of two had been swept away down the swollen Spouthead Gill where it met with Lingmell Beck (Wasdale side of Styhead Pass).
The team were immediately called out and approximately 20 team members attended. Unprecedented rainfall and high winds had flooded the valleys and swollen the rivers. The missing walker was located on an island in the middle of the raging gill. She was located on a very small island with a number of injuries. A further 4 walkers had gone to assist her but were also stranded. 4 Wasdale swift water technicians managed to get to the location and two got across to the island using ropes. A Sea King helicopter that had been called in to assist in the search for the lost walker was brought in to winch all 7 off the island which was quickly becoming engulfed. The injured and hypothermic female was stretcher winched. All were flown to Whitehaven Hospital. Incident closed at around 6.30 p.m.
As you can see here lifted from the Wasdale MRT site ,they were quite busy,I understand this lady was lucky to survive and has serious injuries.
This doesnt quite fit with the OMM and competitors version of nothing happened and there was no flooding ,but maybe the team is part of the conspiracy.........
Fortunately no team members injured.
Telephone call from Keswick MRT after they had been contacted by Ambulance control (Keswick were already dealing with 3 incidents related to the same event ( Original Mountain Marathon). Female competitor in a team of two had been swept away down the swollen Spouthead Gill where it met with Lingmell Beck (Wasdale side of Styhead Pass).
The team were immediately called out and approximately 20 team members attended. Unprecedented rainfall and high winds had flooded the valleys and swollen the rivers. The missing walker was located on an island in the middle of the raging gill. She was located on a very small island with a number of injuries. A further 4 walkers had gone to assist her but were also stranded. 4 Wasdale swift water technicians managed to get to the location and two got across to the island using ropes. A Sea King helicopter that had been called in to assist in the search for the lost walker was brought in to winch all 7 off the island which was quickly becoming engulfed. The injured and hypothermic female was stretcher winched. All were flown to Whitehaven Hospital. Incident closed at around 6.30 p.m.
As you can see here lifted from the Wasdale MRT site ,they were quite busy,I understand this lady was lucky to survive and has serious injuries.
This doesnt quite fit with the OMM and competitors version of nothing happened and there was no flooding ,but maybe the team is part of the conspiracy.........
Fortunately no team members injured.
In reply to Gael Force:
This is an incident that, in and of itself, could have happened on any other mountain day (as the three idiots in Langdale proved). Indeed, with less people on the hills the chances of her being looked after quite so well may well have been reduced. With so many people having travelled over to race, a decision to call it off could well have resulted in 2,500 people doing their own thing anyway, and dispersing across the entire Lakes - making matters much worse for the MRT.
>
> This doesnt quite fit with the OMM and competitors version of nothing happened and there was no flooding ,but maybe the team is part of the conspiracy.........
This is an incident that, in and of itself, could have happened on any other mountain day (as the three idiots in Langdale proved). Indeed, with less people on the hills the chances of her being looked after quite so well may well have been reduced. With so many people having travelled over to race, a decision to call it off could well have resulted in 2,500 people doing their own thing anyway, and dispersing across the entire Lakes - making matters much worse for the MRT.
In reply to Gael Force:
I did consider taking a small digital camera to the OMM, god, I wish I had now.
but then people like you would no doubt still come out with "you Photoshopped that"
A section of the road to Seathwaite Farm DID flood, thats the only part of this 'big story' that is true. However, it was the car park that didn't flood, you claimed it did (despite not being there).
I don't even know why I'm bothering to reply to you.
Yeah, over a thousand people need rescuing... That's what the BBC was reporting. Somehow, two mountain rescue teams rescues us all... Aren't we all a bunch of incompetent fools? yeah, we all got together in the marquee and discussed our conspiracy before leaving the event... all very realistic, isn't it?.
> This doesnt quite fit with the OMM and competitors version of nothing happened and there was no flooding ,but maybe the team is part of the conspiracy.........
I did consider taking a small digital camera to the OMM, god, I wish I had now.
but then people like you would no doubt still come out with "you Photoshopped that"
A section of the road to Seathwaite Farm DID flood, thats the only part of this 'big story' that is true. However, it was the car park that didn't flood, you claimed it did (despite not being there).
I don't even know why I'm bothering to reply to you.
Yeah, over a thousand people need rescuing... That's what the BBC was reporting. Somehow, two mountain rescue teams rescues us all... Aren't we all a bunch of incompetent fools? yeah, we all got together in the marquee and discussed our conspiracy before leaving the event... all very realistic, isn't it?.
In reply to Gael Force:
See you've taken a very unsensationalised MR report and then felt the need to tag this little bit of your own imagination on to the end. The report said she had a number of injuries - these could be a cut cheek, a sprained thumb, a bruised shin. I haven't read a report ANYWHERE that suggests anyone was seriously injured (unless I count your specially fabricated report, which I don't). Fractured pelvis was the worst which has been reported.
> I understand this lady was lucky to survive and has serious injuries
See you've taken a very unsensationalised MR report and then felt the need to tag this little bit of your own imagination on to the end. The report said she had a number of injuries - these could be a cut cheek, a sprained thumb, a bruised shin. I haven't read a report ANYWHERE that suggests anyone was seriously injured (unless I count your specially fabricated report, which I don't). Fractured pelvis was the worst which has been reported.
In reply to Masquerade: She had a fractured pelvis and was lucky to survive,are you thick ?
In reply to Masquerade: and its not as if some (I dare say all) do it cos they love it.
In reply to Gael Force:
Where did it say she was lucky to survive.
> (In reply to Masquerade) She had a fractured pelvis and was lucky to survive,are you thick ?
Where did it say she was lucky to survive.
In reply to oui oui: if i was you i wouldn't bother replying. GF wasn't there and is talking out of their .... when i got back to registration on the Saturday everyone was in fine spirtits sitting around chatting smiling and drinking tea, the was not sence of panic or terror. yes MR and RAF MR were there but as one of MR said to someone who asked if they were going out, they said they were only there just in case. i mean i was standing around having a joke with one of the RAF blokes
In reply to Gael Force: that was mentioned that bit are you blind? Do you enjoy coming on here and insulting people who are debating an incident?
In reply to IainRUK: I think anybody who is washed down a river and smashes their pelvis is lucky to survive,but perhaps I am confused ,perhaps the Wasdale team were never called out and perhaps the floods they mention in their team report above never happened,perhaps Elvis took part in the OMM
In reply to Gael Force: Actually, one of the people who was with the lady in question has stated that she had suspected pelvic injuries which when she got to hospital were discovered to be 'lighter than expected'.
His statement is on here http://www.theomm.com/forum/index.php?topic=731.0 if you're interested in the facts, which I suspect you aren't.
His statement is on here http://www.theomm.com/forum/index.php?topic=731.0 if you're interested in the facts, which I suspect you aren't.
In reply to Fawksey: I see you are very experienced in mountain matters.I am just giving my opinion ,notat all bothered if competitors dont like it.
In reply to Gael Force: 'smashes their pelvis'? Excellent. Where on earth did you get that from? You have one of the greatest capacities for overstatement I've ever seen. I think there's a job for you at the Daily Mail.
In reply to Gael Force:
Oh good, at least you can admit that it's 'opinion' you're giving and not 'fact'.
> (In reply to Fawksey) I am just giving my opinion
Oh good, at least you can admit that it's 'opinion' you're giving and not 'fact'.
In reply to Gael Force: I think competitors (one of which I aint) are naturally dissapointed at the oversensationalised media coverage and those who are still today purveying it further.
I think not only does it bother some of us on that level but it also makes us despair at those people who read headlines and then run around like headless chickens startled by it all.
I personally, even though I couldnt run for a bus will give of my time and experience as a volunteer for next years OMM just to help ensure that the naysayers dont ever win.
I think not only does it bother some of us on that level but it also makes us despair at those people who read headlines and then run around like headless chickens startled by it all.
I personally, even though I couldnt run for a bus will give of my time and experience as a volunteer for next years OMM just to help ensure that the naysayers dont ever win.
In reply to Fawksey:
Extrapolating from that, it makes me wonder yet again how much of the BBC's coverage of world affairs can be trusted, when they just love to put their own agenda and self-importance before the facts. 'This is what we do'....
Extrapolating from that, it makes me wonder yet again how much of the BBC's coverage of world affairs can be trusted, when they just love to put their own agenda and self-importance before the facts. 'This is what we do'....
In reply to Snorkers: I think its possible to watch the BBC's content and feel OK, then you canw atch a current affairs programme and the news and know when someones pushing an agenda, their not too crafty one can usually read between the lines and see whats making the news and why.
Whieli think a lot of people are sophisticated enough to see through this kind of thing, its scary how many people arent. (I will be inflicting some self loathing upon myself later for having the audacity to think I may be in the former group and not the latter)
Whieli think a lot of people are sophisticated enough to see through this kind of thing, its scary how many people arent. (I will be inflicting some self loathing upon myself later for having the audacity to think I may be in the former group and not the latter)
In reply to MG:
I'm not enjoying a lot of the posts here or on the OMM site, but because of the polarisation of the argument (see Gael, above) I find it difficult to hold middle ground. Maybe we should start again from Sunday morning and run with:
"Thousands disappointed as UK's largest mountain marathon is forced to cancel. Mountain rescue perform skilful rescues in Wasdale and Langdale."
Or should we wait for:
"Scottish mountains bear brunt of Winter. As thousands of walkers head off into the hills, Mountain rescue are stretched to the limit as injured climber is helicoptered from an icy death. "The conditions are too treacherous for so many people who don't know the area" warns local businessman.
> (In reply to johnj)
> [...]
>
> Agreed. I think others should adopt that view, rather than the macho "we are all really experienced and nothing happened, honest" type attitude.
> [...]
>
> Agreed. I think others should adopt that view, rather than the macho "we are all really experienced and nothing happened, honest" type attitude.
I'm not enjoying a lot of the posts here or on the OMM site, but because of the polarisation of the argument (see Gael, above) I find it difficult to hold middle ground. Maybe we should start again from Sunday morning and run with:
"Thousands disappointed as UK's largest mountain marathon is forced to cancel. Mountain rescue perform skilful rescues in Wasdale and Langdale."
Or should we wait for:
"Scottish mountains bear brunt of Winter. As thousands of walkers head off into the hills, Mountain rescue are stretched to the limit as injured climber is helicoptered from an icy death. "The conditions are too treacherous for so many people who don't know the area" warns local businessman.
In reply to dmhigg: Not much slate north of the border.
In reply to Gael Force: I fractured my pelvis in four places - two years later I ran the Kimm - perhaps with your leaps of imaganation you should write for a paper.
In reply to pat m: I dont support the sensational stories which are obviously not true.
I just think it was foolish to continue after the local hospital casualty rang the police to ask the event to be cancelled after they were overwhelmed,and it became clear ambulances were being put in danger due to having to travel through floods.
The flooding situation was so bad a major incident was called by the county council,police etc due to the flooding in the Borrowdale,Buttermere valley.The last thing anybody needed on top of that was a mountain marathon and another two hundred cars in a flood zone.
I notice all you people who are suddenly on UKC have just registered ,are you all competitors ,are you all embarrassed.?
Patm your profile has just appeared,how coincidental !
Re your fractured pelvis,did you break yours in the middle of a river and require winching into a helicopter ?
Are you saying thats not life threatening ?
Does lycra protect you from injuries like this ?
Is it true next years event is to be called the OMR, Original Mountain Regatta ?
I just think it was foolish to continue after the local hospital casualty rang the police to ask the event to be cancelled after they were overwhelmed,and it became clear ambulances were being put in danger due to having to travel through floods.
The flooding situation was so bad a major incident was called by the county council,police etc due to the flooding in the Borrowdale,Buttermere valley.The last thing anybody needed on top of that was a mountain marathon and another two hundred cars in a flood zone.
I notice all you people who are suddenly on UKC have just registered ,are you all competitors ,are you all embarrassed.?
Patm your profile has just appeared,how coincidental !
Re your fractured pelvis,did you break yours in the middle of a river and require winching into a helicopter ?
Are you saying thats not life threatening ?
Does lycra protect you from injuries like this ?
Is it true next years event is to be called the OMR, Original Mountain Regatta ?
In reply to Gael Force:
Why not enter next years event and then you can see what it's all about?
Or are you too weak?
Why not enter next years event and then you can see what it's all about?
Or are you too weak?
In reply to KeithWakeley:
As he lives up there don't you think he'd probably do it on a quiet weekend in the middle of winter when there's limited amounts of daylight in the day, and away from next years new intake of brand new Chelsea tracker driving mountain marathon warrior?
Which brings me back to my original question, for anyone who's intrested
do you think now to the hypersensitive nature of the current climate, that the contestants brought this chaos style weather system on themselves, driving on mass to a wet part of the West in the West, induced a Butterfly effect doom filled micro weather storm; or was it just a normal day out ont fells, and this thread is the perfect example of a storm in a teacup?
As he lives up there don't you think he'd probably do it on a quiet weekend in the middle of winter when there's limited amounts of daylight in the day, and away from next years new intake of brand new Chelsea tracker driving mountain marathon warrior?
Which brings me back to my original question, for anyone who's intrested
do you think now to the hypersensitive nature of the current climate, that the contestants brought this chaos style weather system on themselves, driving on mass to a wet part of the West in the West, induced a Butterfly effect doom filled micro weather storm; or was it just a normal day out ont fells, and this thread is the perfect example of a storm in a teacup?
In reply to Gael Force:
All very interesting reading. The facts seems to be that 17 people needed rescuing. I know at most of the MMs I've been too, emergency services have been needed for something or another.
With the RAF side of things, correct me if I'm wrong, but they need to log a certain number of hours a week/month (?), and if they weren't involved in mountain rescue, they'd probably be flying exercises around the same areas.
17 out of 3000 odd, I don't think is that bad, considering the conditions
With the fractured pelvis, from the account of the lady who was rescued, it sounded like she was in a lot of pain, but there was no mention of a fractured pelvis. She said that she is struggling to walk properly at the moment, surely with a fractured pelvis you would be walking at all for a few days.
I wasn't there this year, due to family commitments, but I hope to be back again next year
Rob
All very interesting reading. The facts seems to be that 17 people needed rescuing. I know at most of the MMs I've been too, emergency services have been needed for something or another.
With the RAF side of things, correct me if I'm wrong, but they need to log a certain number of hours a week/month (?), and if they weren't involved in mountain rescue, they'd probably be flying exercises around the same areas.
17 out of 3000 odd, I don't think is that bad, considering the conditions
With the fractured pelvis, from the account of the lady who was rescued, it sounded like she was in a lot of pain, but there was no mention of a fractured pelvis. She said that she is struggling to walk properly at the moment, surely with a fractured pelvis you would be walking at all for a few days.
I wasn't there this year, due to family commitments, but I hope to be back again next year
Rob
In reply to oui oui: I can only presume Gael Force is talking about me. Surprisingly enough I didn't register this username a month before the OMM in the knowledge of what was about to happen and with the sole purpose of picking his ridiculous arguments to pieces, fun as it is turning out to be.
In reply to Gael Force:
.
"and it became clear ambulances were being put in danger due to having to travel through floods."
There was no requirement for Ambulances there?
"The last thing anybody needed on top of that was a mountain marathon and another two hundred cars in a flood zone."
Where were the 200 flooded cars?
You might be trying to play devils advocate, but you are coming across as something else.
.
> "I just think it was foolish to continue after the local hospital casualty rang the police to ask the event to be cancelled after they were overwhelmed."
Which local hospital ? I think you may find that the Wasdale casualties and the hypothermic casualties did not all go to the same hospital. Apart from which someone who requires only a blanket, a warm room and brew is not really stretching the NHS!"and it became clear ambulances were being put in danger due to having to travel through floods."
There was no requirement for Ambulances there?
"The last thing anybody needed on top of that was a mountain marathon and another two hundred cars in a flood zone."
Where were the 200 flooded cars?
You might be trying to play devils advocate, but you are coming across as something else.
In reply to Masquerade:
GF does have a point if he was refering the OMM forum, there are plenty on 'newbies' on there... strangely enough a lot of them stirring up trouble like him!
GF does have a point if he was refering the OMM forum, there are plenty on 'newbies' on there... strangely enough a lot of them stirring up trouble like him!
In reply to oui oui:
17 needed rescuing, and that included 5 in the helicopter involved in the ONE person who fell in the river rescue, dropping the total down to 12. I think half of those were not involved in the OMM so say 6, 7 including the woman in the river. If three hospitals were overwhelmed they had Better not have a bus or coach crash.
17 needed rescuing, and that included 5 in the helicopter involved in the ONE person who fell in the river rescue, dropping the total down to 12. I think half of those were not involved in the OMM so say 6, 7 including the woman in the river. If three hospitals were overwhelmed they had Better not have a bus or coach crash.
In reply to KeithWakeley: I am not keen on mass events in the mountains .However I was reading the entry requirements for next year and I am reconsidering,have you seen them....
Original Mountain Regatta Entry Rules
1.Only really tough people can apply.
2.Only the current years lycra may be worn.
3. No guffies will be allowed to enter.
4.Each team must carry an inflatable kayak,if the teams already own an inflatable full size doll ,this may be sustituted.
5.Anyone found not having deposited their litter on the fell ,will be made to leave it in the farmers fields or disqualified.
6.Anyone with previous experience of map reading will not be allowed to enter.
7.All participants will be given free entry to Honister slate mine and can eat as much as they like for nothing.
Original Mountain Regatta Entry Rules
1.Only really tough people can apply.
2.Only the current years lycra may be worn.
3. No guffies will be allowed to enter.
4.Each team must carry an inflatable kayak,if the teams already own an inflatable full size doll ,this may be sustituted.
5.Anyone found not having deposited their litter on the fell ,will be made to leave it in the farmers fields or disqualified.
6.Anyone with previous experience of map reading will not be allowed to enter.
7.All participants will be given free entry to Honister slate mine and can eat as much as they like for nothing.
In reply to sutty:
Aha, now I know where the BBC got that 1700 figure from – ‘17’ then add two zeros on the end, hey presto, ‘1700’.
As someone who’s had to defend mountaineering and climbing from uninformed morons coming out with that tired argument of “you idiots cost us taxpayers money to rescue each year”, I’m absolutely disgusted that the BBC News could broadcast this sh*te… and continue to do so long after the truth of the situation became apparent.
The coverage of this event in the media isn’t a MM or Fell Running issue, it applies to anyone who ventures out into the hills.
You could equally take a similar scenario to a busy winter climbing day on Ben Nevis – if someone spread a rumour of a mass rescue on the Ben to the media, no-one would be even aware of the story until they got back their car and phoned home to say they were heading home. By that time, the media would be in full swing reporting this ‘breaking story’ - that’s effectively the position people in this year’s OMM were in.
I’d love to see the reaction of certain people on this thread if this junk reporting was applied to a ‘major climbing incident’.
> (In reply to oui oui)
>
> 17 needed rescuing
>
> 17 needed rescuing
Aha, now I know where the BBC got that 1700 figure from – ‘17’ then add two zeros on the end, hey presto, ‘1700’.
As someone who’s had to defend mountaineering and climbing from uninformed morons coming out with that tired argument of “you idiots cost us taxpayers money to rescue each year”, I’m absolutely disgusted that the BBC News could broadcast this sh*te… and continue to do so long after the truth of the situation became apparent.
The coverage of this event in the media isn’t a MM or Fell Running issue, it applies to anyone who ventures out into the hills.
You could equally take a similar scenario to a busy winter climbing day on Ben Nevis – if someone spread a rumour of a mass rescue on the Ben to the media, no-one would be even aware of the story until they got back their car and phoned home to say they were heading home. By that time, the media would be in full swing reporting this ‘breaking story’ - that’s effectively the position people in this year’s OMM were in.
I’d love to see the reaction of certain people on this thread if this junk reporting was applied to a ‘major climbing incident’.
In reply to Gael Force:
"Patm your profile has just appeared,how coincidental !"
What are you talking about - I have been registered on UKC and posted since the late 90s - all through the days of JCT etc.
"Re your fractured pelvis,did you break yours in the middle of a river and require winching into a helicopter ?" No it was in the middle of a tunnel full of freeezing water
"Are you saying thats not life threatening ?" Yes
Does lycra protect you from injuries like this ? Dont know wasnt wearing lycra at the time - unless you count my thong
> >
"I notice all you people who are suddenly on UKC have just registered ,are you all competitors ,are you all embarrassed.?" No "Patm your profile has just appeared,how coincidental !"
What are you talking about - I have been registered on UKC and posted since the late 90s - all through the days of JCT etc.
"Re your fractured pelvis,did you break yours in the middle of a river and require winching into a helicopter ?" No it was in the middle of a tunnel full of freeezing water
"Are you saying thats not life threatening ?" Yes
Does lycra protect you from injuries like this ? Dont know wasnt wearing lycra at the time - unless you count my thong
In reply to pat m: Are you trying to chat me up on here !I will have you know I am a happily married man .
Was it black one?
Was it black one?
In reply to pat m:
You do realise that your accident overwhelmed three hospitals don't you?
Now if you had been properly equipped two hospitals may have just been on standby,
http://www.easierliving.com/ProductDetail.asp?style=88791W&source=googl...
You do realise that your accident overwhelmed three hospitals don't you?
Now if you had been properly equipped two hospitals may have just been on standby,
http://www.easierliving.com/ProductDetail.asp?style=88791W&source=googl...
In reply to Gael Force:
Now you're being ridiculous.
>
> ...
> 7.All participants will be given free entry to Honister slate mine and can eat as much as they like for nothing.
> ...
> 7.All participants will be given free entry to Honister slate mine and can eat as much as they like for nothing.
Now you're being ridiculous.
In reply to cathsullivan: Do you have any public underwear disclosures to make,if all you mountain regatta competitiors behave like this to strangers on the internet I may well enter next year !!.
I will just need to repair the puncture in my doll first.
Regards
GF
I can put a picture on my profile if you like ,yours is very nice.
I will just need to repair the puncture in my doll first.
Regards
GF
I can put a picture on my profile if you like ,yours is very nice.
In reply to Gael Force:
Strangely, no.
> (In reply to cathsullivan) Do you have any public underwear disclosures to make...
Strangely, no.
In reply to Gael Force:
Would I be correct in thinking that you are a prominent member of a well established Scottish climbing club who has on occasions drunk inflammable blue liquids?
Would I be correct in thinking that you are a prominent member of a well established Scottish climbing club who has on occasions drunk inflammable blue liquids?
In reply to Removed User: Now you're just being abusive.
In reply to pat m:
>....unless you count my thong
Shhhhh. Don't let Al hear you say that, he collects thongs!
> (In reply to Gael Force)
>....unless you count my thong
Shhhhh. Don't let Al hear you say that, he collects thongs!
In reply to Removed User: I have suffered burns to my face while drinking Sambuka.
I am not a member of a prominent Scottish climbing club as I have a conviction for beastiality with sheep,and so am disallowed,hence my exile here, and can only join the Fell and Rock.
Regards,
GF
I am not a member of a prominent Scottish climbing club as I have a conviction for beastiality with sheep,and so am disallowed,hence my exile here, and can only join the Fell and Rock.
Regards,
GF
In reply to indalo: Well I've had a snorting good read from this thread. Great to hear the OMM has generated so much interest from the climbing fraternity.
As several of my (and my partner's) posts from the OMM site and the FRA site have been quoted here, I thought I'd add a bit re. the lass swept down Spouthead Gill.
She has no pelvic or femur injury (I suspected not from the amount she didn't scream when we moved her!)but lots of bruising. She has a broken wrist, which was not suspected at the time. She had moderate hypothermia but is recovering well now.
Providing shelter for her on the threatened island was indeed a challenge, especially with half the stream blowing back at us, as if it wasn't raining hard enough.
Astounded that the helicopter reached us, it was touch and go but a text book rescue was effected. I can't praise the guys too highly, both MRT and RAF.
My experience of this OMM was indeed more dramatic than most yet apart from that, people were coping with the conditions and getting on with the racing, even enjoying themselves! The crisis reported was not the experience of the vast majority of competitors.
Roll on next year!
As several of my (and my partner's) posts from the OMM site and the FRA site have been quoted here, I thought I'd add a bit re. the lass swept down Spouthead Gill.
She has no pelvic or femur injury (I suspected not from the amount she didn't scream when we moved her!)but lots of bruising. She has a broken wrist, which was not suspected at the time. She had moderate hypothermia but is recovering well now.
Providing shelter for her on the threatened island was indeed a challenge, especially with half the stream blowing back at us, as if it wasn't raining hard enough.
Astounded that the helicopter reached us, it was touch and go but a text book rescue was effected. I can't praise the guys too highly, both MRT and RAF.
My experience of this OMM was indeed more dramatic than most yet apart from that, people were coping with the conditions and getting on with the racing, even enjoying themselves! The crisis reported was not the experience of the vast majority of competitors.
Roll on next year!
In reply to indalo: They should do a 'drunken mountain marathon' (DMM) where competitors have to navigate between a series of pubs and drink a pint or equivalent in each. Imagine getting from checkpoint 8 (the Kings Head at Kettlewell) to checkpoint 9 (the white lion at Cray)! WITHOUT using the roads!! Of course, there'll be checkpoint charlies along the roads to catch cheats.
That'd be ace. Imagine what the red-tops'd make of that. LRFLOL!
That'd be ace. Imagine what the red-tops'd make of that. LRFLOL!
In reply to BrianT: > (In reply to indalo) They should do a 'drunken mountain marathon' (DMM) where competitors have to navigate between a series of pubs and drink a pint or equivalent in each. ...
Sounds like this: http://www.gthhh.com/
Glad to hear an update about the woman who was rescued from the stream.
Sounds like this: http://www.gthhh.com/
Glad to hear an update about the woman who was rescued from the stream.
In reply to Tim Sparrow: What you mean her injuries were not life threatening? what will "pissing in the wind" have to say about this I wonder.
In reply to BrianT:
Ah, but the Scottish parliament are considering banning pub crawls, so you might not be able to hold it up here.
> (In reply to indalo) They should do a 'drunken mountain marathon'...
Ah, but the Scottish parliament are considering banning pub crawls, so you might not be able to hold it up here.
In reply to Clauso:
I`m touched by your concern old chap. Just my tuppeneth- conditions were a tad inclement.
Fetid merkins like GaelForce Trump, Overton and others on here should climb into bed and make jiggy with the scrotes from the meeja who wilfully misrepresented events,aided and abetted by the morgue boy from Honister.
I hope his via ferrata rusts.
Right I`m away for a run.
> (In reply to sutty)
>
> Alas, poor Lummox, we knew him well... At the going down of the sun and the retreating of the waters we will remember him.
>
> Alas, poor Lummox, we knew him well... At the going down of the sun and the retreating of the waters we will remember him.
I`m touched by your concern old chap. Just my tuppeneth- conditions were a tad inclement.
Fetid merkins like GaelForce Trump, Overton and others on here should climb into bed and make jiggy with the scrotes from the meeja who wilfully misrepresented events,aided and abetted by the morgue boy from Honister.
I hope his via ferrata rusts.
Right I`m away for a run.
In reply to indalo: Interview with organisers and police on radio4 now....
In reply to Gael Force:
Actually, I think that might be an entrance requirement for the club I was thinking of.
> I am not a member of a prominent Scottish climbing club as I have a conviction for beastiality with sheep,and so am disallowed
>
>
Actually, I think that might be an entrance requirement for the club I was thinking of.
In reply to lummox:
I think the MRT donations raised on justgiving site may well have been twisted by the BBC. Very poor as it may actally put people off doing such an act in future. Instead of trying to see it as a positive act they have incorrectly used it as an admittance of guilt.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7700628.stm
I saw the raising as a gesture of good will, not a 'thanks for saving us' which is how the BBC have spun it. Very poor sensationalist journalism, and you expect more from the BBC than this tabloid style we've seen over the past week.
Instead of backing down and starting to understand the situation like the Times et al have done, the BBC have twisted this good will gesture to further enhance their story.
The BBC have acted very poorly over the past week, for me I just want to see the end of TV licenses. If they want to pedal their ow views then they should compete for that right.
I think the MRT donations raised on justgiving site may well have been twisted by the BBC. Very poor as it may actally put people off doing such an act in future. Instead of trying to see it as a positive act they have incorrectly used it as an admittance of guilt.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7700628.stm
I saw the raising as a gesture of good will, not a 'thanks for saving us' which is how the BBC have spun it. Very poor sensationalist journalism, and you expect more from the BBC than this tabloid style we've seen over the past week.
Instead of backing down and starting to understand the situation like the Times et al have done, the BBC have twisted this good will gesture to further enhance their story.
The BBC have acted very poorly over the past week, for me I just want to see the end of TV licenses. If they want to pedal their ow views then they should compete for that right.
In reply to IainRUK:
They need to justify this comment, or another complaint should be sent by everyone;
All 2,500 entrants were accounted for, but not before hundreds of thousands of pounds was spent by emergency services.
They should be made to admit that it was the sheep that cried wolf that triggered all this off, and then the police compounded it by refusing the people access to Borrowdale but took it on themselves to make them go to Cockermouth.
They need to justify this comment, or another complaint should be sent by everyone;
All 2,500 entrants were accounted for, but not before hundreds of thousands of pounds was spent by emergency services.
They should be made to admit that it was the sheep that cried wolf that triggered all this off, and then the police compounded it by refusing the people access to Borrowdale but took it on themselves to make them go to Cockermouth.
In reply to sutty: Just very poor. It's now looking like the runners could have been pawns in Mr Weirs games to get publicity.
It's interesting looking at the results how many teams actually completed Day 1, so I've no idea where all this 1000+ missing came from.
It's interesting looking at the results how many teams actually completed Day 1, so I've no idea where all this 1000+ missing came from.
In reply to IainRUK:
Last Saturday they could just about be forgiven for getting carried away as details were scarce (especially given that their reporter was 50 miles away). But they're still coming out with the same demonstrably wrong 'facts', which is lazy at best.
> The BBC have acted very poorly over the past week
Last Saturday they could just about be forgiven for getting carried away as details were scarce (especially given that their reporter was 50 miles away). But they're still coming out with the same demonstrably wrong 'facts', which is lazy at best.
In reply to Toreador: Yeah, most papers changed their tune later in the week. Suprisingly the BBC have probably been the worst of all for sticking to the story, even using the donations to get the point across.
In reply to IainRUK:
like i've said before i think it was just semantics or something cloes to that - while the event was 'running' they were all just doing the event but once it was 'cancelled' they all underwent a strange change of state to 'unaccounted for' - quite interesting actually if not so annoying
>
> so I've no idea where all this 1000+ missing came from.
> so I've no idea where all this 1000+ missing came from.
like i've said before i think it was just semantics or something cloes to that - while the event was 'running' they were all just doing the event but once it was 'cancelled' they all underwent a strange change of state to 'unaccounted for' - quite interesting actually if not so annoying
In reply to IainRUK:
The BBC has laid a massive turd of a news story, and no matter how much they try and spray perfume around it, it’s still a turd…
Thanks to the internet, various forum sites and fell running / orienteering club websites are all pointing to the truth of this story, so the more the BBC try and cover up their mess, the less credible they look.
> (In reply to lummox)
>
> The BBC have acted very poorly over the past week, for me I just want to see the end of TV licenses. If they want to pedal their ow views then they should compete for that right.
>
> The BBC have acted very poorly over the past week, for me I just want to see the end of TV licenses. If they want to pedal their ow views then they should compete for that right.
The BBC has laid a massive turd of a news story, and no matter how much they try and spray perfume around it, it’s still a turd…
Thanks to the internet, various forum sites and fell running / orienteering club websites are all pointing to the truth of this story, so the more the BBC try and cover up their mess, the less credible they look.
In reply to oui oui:
Could you find out how much of the 'hundreds of thousands of pounds' were spent by your teams, then we can ask how many ambulances were used etc.
Could you find out how much of the 'hundreds of thousands of pounds' were spent by your teams, then we can ask how many ambulances were used etc.
In reply to sutty: im just going to email the BBC this thread. Tell them to have a good long read of it!
I think everybody should tell the BBC exactly what they think of their shite reporting;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ifs/hi/newsid_4000000/newsid_4000500/400054...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ifs/hi/newsid_4000000/newsid_4000500/400054...
In reply to 00spaw:
Feel free to mention it's had over 19000 views while you're at it.
> (In reply to sutty) im just going to email the BBC this thread. Tell them to have a good long read of it!
Feel free to mention it's had over 19000 views while you're at it.
In reply to oui oui: will do
In reply to dinkypen:
or even apply to go on newswatch and do it face to face
http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ifs/hi/newsid_3980000/newsid_3986900/398692...
or even apply to go on newswatch and do it face to face
http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ifs/hi/newsid_3980000/newsid_3986900/398692...
In reply to 00spaw:
http://www.theomm.com/forum/index.php?topic=829.msg5552#msg5552
I love the post by 'Podcast Bob'....
http://www.theomm.com/forum/index.php?topic=829.msg5552#msg5552
I love the post by 'Podcast Bob'....
In reply to Removed User: that is the form i used.
In reply to oui oui:
I have just sent this to them;
We have got increasingly annoyed at the misleading reporting of the OMM last weekend when it was a total non event. Your Cumbria website says that there were hundreds of thousands of pounds spent by the rescue services, can you justify that comment?
The real story is that ONE person started all this, Mark Weir, the owner of the slate mine and cafe. He, and then the police stopped people going back to Borrowdale. He asked for vehicles to take people to Cockermouth, away from their cars and dry clothes. HE was the person who made people 'unaccounted for', when in fact they were mostly happy in a barn or tent, unaware of all the false alarms.
Maybe you should read the organisers website for comments and the UKC forum about it and issue an apology on all the TV news programmes saying you are sorry you got it wrong due to misinformation by Mark Weir and the police.
Links here;
http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/racereport.php?page_action=rep&race_id=6...
http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/forum_fullthread_window.php?thread_id=5831&a...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=326132&v=1
I have just sent this to them;
We have got increasingly annoyed at the misleading reporting of the OMM last weekend when it was a total non event. Your Cumbria website says that there were hundreds of thousands of pounds spent by the rescue services, can you justify that comment?
The real story is that ONE person started all this, Mark Weir, the owner of the slate mine and cafe. He, and then the police stopped people going back to Borrowdale. He asked for vehicles to take people to Cockermouth, away from their cars and dry clothes. HE was the person who made people 'unaccounted for', when in fact they were mostly happy in a barn or tent, unaware of all the false alarms.
Maybe you should read the organisers website for comments and the UKC forum about it and issue an apology on all the TV news programmes saying you are sorry you got it wrong due to misinformation by Mark Weir and the police.
Links here;
http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/racereport.php?page_action=rep&race_id=6...
http://www.sleepmonsters.co.uk/forum_fullthread_window.php?thread_id=5831&a...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=326132&v=1
In reply to IainRUK:
Maybe complaints are sometimes listened to?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7702718.stm
'hundreds of thousands of pounds' has become 'thousands' and they've even updated the fund total and added a link to the donation page
Maybe complaints are sometimes listened to?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7702718.stm
'hundreds of thousands of pounds' has become 'thousands' and they've even updated the fund total and added a link to the donation page
In reply to Toreador:
That's very interesting. I complained about 15 minutes ago about the expression "runners sparked a huge rescue" and queried the source of their hundreds of thousands figure.
Both have changed since then..
That's very interesting. I complained about 15 minutes ago about the expression "runners sparked a huge rescue" and queried the source of their hundreds of thousands figure.
Both have changed since then..
In reply to Jonathan Lagoe - UKC: I do agree with the issue re poor reporting.However the issues on that weekend were why are the .......
1. The organisers encouraging more people into a flood area,two evacuation centres were opened locally,several houses flooded in Cockermouth.
2.The health service/emergency services were having difficulties with all associated problems,why increase the likelihood of a huge increase through this event taking place in very adverse conditions.
Bear in mind any injuries on the event would require ambulances to travel through deep flood water with the risk of engine damage and immobilisation.
3.The recovery problems linked to many vehilces being flooded in Borrowdale.
4.I would like to know who makes all the money from this event ,what is the entry cost ,is it £85 a head,how much of that is to be returned to the community for the 30 extra cops ,highways ,NH ,etc,all called out.
5.A real debate is required about the environmental damage to the fells caused by 2000 people running over the fells when they were sodden.Their are some quite serious litter issues surrounding this sadly.
6.I have got my blow up doll for safety boat for next year from some abandoned competitors equipment,much more pretty that my own,what should I call her ?
Regards,
GF
1. The organisers encouraging more people into a flood area,two evacuation centres were opened locally,several houses flooded in Cockermouth.
2.The health service/emergency services were having difficulties with all associated problems,why increase the likelihood of a huge increase through this event taking place in very adverse conditions.
Bear in mind any injuries on the event would require ambulances to travel through deep flood water with the risk of engine damage and immobilisation.
3.The recovery problems linked to many vehilces being flooded in Borrowdale.
4.I would like to know who makes all the money from this event ,what is the entry cost ,is it £85 a head,how much of that is to be returned to the community for the 30 extra cops ,highways ,NH ,etc,all called out.
5.A real debate is required about the environmental damage to the fells caused by 2000 people running over the fells when they were sodden.Their are some quite serious litter issues surrounding this sadly.
6.I have got my blow up doll for safety boat for next year from some abandoned competitors equipment,much more pretty that my own,what should I call her ?
Regards,
GF
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