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Toby Archer takes a good look at the Lofoten Rock guidebook from Rockfax.
He likes what he finds:
"The Lofoten Rockfax is one of those guidebooks that works well both on a purely functional level of giving you the information you need to get to the base of a route and then up it, but also on the perhaps more important level of inspiring you to go somewhere new and do great things...."
Read More: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=1412
He likes what he finds:
"The Lofoten Rockfax is one of those guidebooks that works well both on a purely functional level of giving you the information you need to get to the base of a route and then up it, but also on the perhaps more important level of inspiring you to go somewhere new and do great things...."
Read More: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=1412
In reply to UKC Gear:
I guess its been covered before but I think that E grades would have worked well here. E2 5b for Vestpillaren would have told an E1 leader what they were in for far more than 6 ever would (I'm sure world wide more people have an inkling of how UK grades work C/W Norwegian grades).
It really boils down to who the intended audience is and, if it is effectively the definitive guide then the local system should be adopted (which is at variance with the earlier Webster guide, of course, which used YDS)but that does NOT make it easier for visiting UK climbers.
I guess its been covered before but I think that E grades would have worked well here. E2 5b for Vestpillaren would have told an E1 leader what they were in for far more than 6 ever would (I'm sure world wide more people have an inkling of how UK grades work C/W Norwegian grades).
It really boils down to who the intended audience is and, if it is effectively the definitive guide then the local system should be adopted (which is at variance with the earlier Webster guide, of course, which used YDS)but that does NOT make it easier for visiting UK climbers.
In reply to GrahamD:
i disagree....makes more sense to use the local system....esp. if rockfax rightly want to appeal to a non-uk audience as well.
how hard can it be?
i disagree....makes more sense to use the local system....esp. if rockfax rightly want to appeal to a non-uk audience as well.
how hard can it be?
In reply to Morgan Woods:
I think it makes sense to use local grades for a definitive guide, I agree.
I was simply disagreeing with Toby's assertion that they would be of more use to a visiting British climber. I found the E grades of the old mini guide told me exactly what to expect of routes. This being UK climbing I was making a parochial point.
I think it makes sense to use local grades for a definitive guide, I agree.
I was simply disagreeing with Toby's assertion that they would be of more use to a visiting British climber. I found the E grades of the old mini guide told me exactly what to expect of routes. This being UK climbing I was making a parochial point.
In reply to GrahamD: I think of E2 5b being things like Brown's eliminate - 5b climbing with spaced, bad or no gear (maybe no gear gets E3...). You could aid Vestpillaren (if you had a few days) because the gear is so good.
And if long routes get an extra E grade, why aren't all the Nevis routes a grade harder than Stanage routes?
And if long routes get an extra E grade, why aren't all the Nevis routes a grade harder than Stanage routes?
In reply to GrahamD:
Don't forget Graham that the top 50 routes do have E grades in the guide and the vast majority of visitors will not stray too far from this top 50.
Alan
Don't forget Graham that the top 50 routes do have E grades in the guide and the vast majority of visitors will not stray too far from this top 50.
Alan
In reply to UKC Gear: The photography is brilliant. Some excellent models were drafted in.
Really good guide - i'm inspired to go back to Lofoten after seeing the guide and i've been twice and thought i'd done most of the classics from the webster one! A long-lasting masterpiece, well done Chris et al.
Really good guide - i'm inspired to go back to Lofoten after seeing the guide and i've been twice and thought i'd done most of the classics from the webster one! A long-lasting masterpiece, well done Chris et al.
In reply to TobyA:
If you were only using gritstone benchmarks to calibrate your expectations of the E grades you would be asking for trouble - as you would in this country.
If you looked at longer E2 5b 'stanards' like Central Pillar on Esk, Strand at Gogarth, any number of Pembroke E2s, Xanadu in Great Zawn you get a very good idea of what to expect.
If you were only using gritstone benchmarks to calibrate your expectations of the E grades you would be asking for trouble - as you would in this country.
If you looked at longer E2 5b 'stanards' like Central Pillar on Esk, Strand at Gogarth, any number of Pembroke E2s, Xanadu in Great Zawn you get a very good idea of what to expect.
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
I remember the discussion about this when the book was in preparation and I think you have taken the right compromise approach.
My comment was more directed to the assertion in Toby's review than the at the book itself.
I remember the discussion about this when the book was in preparation and I think you have taken the right compromise approach.
My comment was more directed to the assertion in Toby's review than the at the book itself.
In reply to TobyA:
In fact, routes on Gandalf are almost exactly like routes at Bosigran and the UK grades are very informative there.
In fact, routes on Gandalf are almost exactly like routes at Bosigran and the UK grades are very informative there.
In reply to GrahamD:
Well, my limited experience is based more on Scottish (and some Lakes and Welsh multipitch routes) and I don't remember VSs becoming HVSs for length at all - I don't think I've done a multipitch E1 in Britain except on the Culm Coast so it's not a very good reference set admittedly.
So are you saying the Strand is well protected but just long and sustained? If so that's going on my tick list!
> If you were only using gritstone benchmarks to calibrate your expectations of the E grades you would be asking for trouble - as you would in this country.
Well, my limited experience is based more on Scottish (and some Lakes and Welsh multipitch routes) and I don't remember VSs becoming HVSs for length at all - I don't think I've done a multipitch E1 in Britain except on the Culm Coast so it's not a very good reference set admittedly.
So are you saying the Strand is well protected but just long and sustained? If so that's going on my tick list!
In reply to UKC Gear: It's an adventurous holiday Lofoten so a different grading system is part of the fun..just as going to the US it is, and likewise people coming to the UK.
The E grades help in the comparison section but i think they were right to keep with local grades!
The E grades help in the comparison section but i think they were right to keep with local grades!
In reply to Mattyk:
Seemed logical - otherwise we would have been guessing the UK grades of all the routes we didn't do!
Chris
Seemed logical - otherwise we would have been guessing the UK grades of all the routes we didn't do!
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
It's a fine looking book - probably the best looking of all the RF guides I've got.
Good to see a bit of information about some of the 'walking' summits. These are almost exclusively half-day trips though, it'd have been nice to have something about longer excursions (I assume there must be one or two!)
Now, do we go next year, when it'll be full of people who bought the new guide, or the year after, when it'll be full of people who've delayed for a year hoping to avoid the people who've bought the new guide...
It's a fine looking book - probably the best looking of all the RF guides I've got.
Good to see a bit of information about some of the 'walking' summits. These are almost exclusively half-day trips though, it'd have been nice to have something about longer excursions (I assume there must be one or two!)
Now, do we go next year, when it'll be full of people who bought the new guide, or the year after, when it'll be full of people who've delayed for a year hoping to avoid the people who've bought the new guide...
In reply to TobyA:
The mini-guide gave Vestpillaren E2, despite virtually every move in its 550 metres being protectable and that the tech grade never being more than 5b. It was given E2 because it is long, but to me that might scare off competent E1 climbers who would be perfectly capable of climbing it safely if they just keep plugging away.
You're not still banging on about that! With respect, I think you can only be a judge of that if you'd done the route for the first time with another E1 climber.
The mini-guide gave Vestpillaren E2, despite virtually every move in its 550 metres being protectable and that the tech grade never being more than 5b. It was given E2 because it is long, but to me that might scare off competent E1 climbers who would be perfectly capable of climbing it safely if they just keep plugging away.
You're not still banging on about that! With respect, I think you can only be a judge of that if you'd done the route for the first time with another E1 climber.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Ding ding, being a foreigner who doesn't really get the E-dealio, using norwegian grades made everything a breese.... just more or less drop a + from everything to get the finnish grade.
E something doesn't tell me squat, but norwegian 6- means that I should be technically competent enough to OS it. And the amount/lack of gear, well that I can either see, guess or read the darn topo.
Ding ding, being a foreigner who doesn't really get the E-dealio, using norwegian grades made everything a breese.... just more or less drop a + from everything to get the finnish grade.
E something doesn't tell me squat, but norwegian 6- means that I should be technically competent enough to OS it. And the amount/lack of gear, well that I can either see, guess or read the darn topo.
In reply to tobyfk: I know, and have met on here, a few E1 climbers who have since done it - one sent me a very nice email saying how much fun they had had but also how my email describing how I had found it gave them the confidence to try. And don't you think E2 is more intimidating that Nor. 6?
Anyway it's all a rather moot point because the guide hasn't used UK grades.
Anyway it's all a rather moot point because the guide hasn't used UK grades.
In reply to UKC Gear:
There is indeed an error on Maurpillaren, despite the FA and FFA climbers getting a good look at the topo!!! The description is correct, but the top pitch on the topo should be up the next corner to the right. It was one of the first routes we did up there in May (just before the guides arrived on the islands) and I thought "bloody typical"! We will issue and update along with few new routes etc. some time before next season starts.
Chris
PS it is deffo Top 50 though!
There is indeed an error on Maurpillaren, despite the FA and FFA climbers getting a good look at the topo!!! The description is correct, but the top pitch on the topo should be up the next corner to the right. It was one of the first routes we did up there in May (just before the guides arrived on the islands) and I thought "bloody typical"! We will issue and update along with few new routes etc. some time before next season starts.
Chris
PS it is deffo Top 50 though!
In reply to TobyA:
The Strand will swallow more gear than you could possibly carry ! Norwegian 6 describes it perfectly
The Strand will swallow more gear than you could possibly carry ! Norwegian 6 describes it perfectly
In reply to Chris Craggs: Except that the norwegians generally stick a bolt in anything bolder than E2 5b.....
In reply to Alasdair Fulton:
..... don't say that in Lofoten, you'll get hung by the cod-racks!
Chris
> Except that the norwegians generally stick a bolt in anything bolder than E2 5b.....
..... don't say that in Lofoten, you'll get hung by the cod-racks!
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs: That's good news as I'm planning on heading out there this year for some - hopefully bolt free - adventurous trad action.
Is there still plenty scope for new routing?
Is there still plenty scope for new routing?
In reply to Chris Craggs:
About to discover the 'mistake' in the description of Maurpillaren, the two cracks are clearly visible near the top of the crag above the huge block you belay on.
http://www.pbase.com/chris_craggs/image/98400573
Chris
About to discover the 'mistake' in the description of Maurpillaren, the two cracks are clearly visible near the top of the crag above the huge block you belay on.
http://www.pbase.com/chris_craggs/image/98400573
Chris
In reply to Alasdair Fulton:
If you're willing to walk an hour or two... Yes, I'd say there's still quite a bit of climbing to be done.
If you're willing to walk an hour or two... Yes, I'd say there's still quite a bit of climbing to be done.
In reply to Alasdair Fulton:
Nah - the place is worked out!
Chris
PS http://www.pbase.com/chris_craggs/image/84310340
two routes on that, two on the buttress to the right, none on the stuff to the left!
> That's good news as I'm planning on heading out there this year for some - hopefully bolt free - adventurous trad action.
>
> Is there still plenty scope for new routing?
>
> Is there still plenty scope for new routing?
Nah - the place is worked out!
Chris
PS http://www.pbase.com/chris_craggs/image/84310340
two routes on that, two on the buttress to the right, none on the stuff to the left!
In reply to Chris Craggs:
... and here is the guide page
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=96283
You forgot to mention Chris that those walls are 14 pitches high.
Alan
> PS http://www.pbase.com/chris_craggs/image/84310340
>
> two routes on that, two on the buttress to the right, none on the stuff to the left!
>
> two routes on that, two on the buttress to the right, none on the stuff to the left!
... and here is the guide page
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=96283
You forgot to mention Chris that those walls are 14 pitches high.
Alan
In reply to UKC Gear:
It was us who got stuck with Pizza thief. We tried climbing the crack to the left which fades out. I'm surprised that it's a top 50 route. I haven't climbed 50 routes in Lofoten, but out of all the routes we did it was the only poor one. The first pitch is too uninspiring to make it a classic.
We also thought that the top 2 pitches of Bilberries were rather pointless. The climbing was easy, but loose and not as well protected as the previous pitches. I would have agreed with the Webster guide and abseiled off earlier. The climbing up to that was fantastic and some of the best granite I've seen.
The addition of the sports routes are excellent and the Paradiset routes a nice touch for rainy days. I also think that using Norwegean grades was the best approach. I know lots of foreign climbers and not one of them understands the British system.
It was us who got stuck with Pizza thief. We tried climbing the crack to the left which fades out. I'm surprised that it's a top 50 route. I haven't climbed 50 routes in Lofoten, but out of all the routes we did it was the only poor one. The first pitch is too uninspiring to make it a classic.
We also thought that the top 2 pitches of Bilberries were rather pointless. The climbing was easy, but loose and not as well protected as the previous pitches. I would have agreed with the Webster guide and abseiled off earlier. The climbing up to that was fantastic and some of the best granite I've seen.
The addition of the sports routes are excellent and the Paradiset routes a nice touch for rainy days. I also think that using Norwegean grades was the best approach. I know lots of foreign climbers and not one of them understands the British system.
In reply to TonyB:
Interesting - we too tried to get up that final corner before realising the error of our ways. Despite that I thought is a great route, interesting and varied. And full of ants at the start of the season!
Again - interesting, I thought the last pitch a bit weak, but the one before it excellent - weird eh!
Overall, sounds like you had a great trip though!
Chris
>
> It was us who got stuck with Pizza thief. We tried climbing the crack to the left which fades out. I'm surprised that it's a top 50 route. I haven't climbed 50 routes in Lofoten, but out of all the routes we did it was the only poor one. The first pitch is too uninspiring to make it a classic.
> It was us who got stuck with Pizza thief. We tried climbing the crack to the left which fades out. I'm surprised that it's a top 50 route. I haven't climbed 50 routes in Lofoten, but out of all the routes we did it was the only poor one. The first pitch is too uninspiring to make it a classic.
Interesting - we too tried to get up that final corner before realising the error of our ways. Despite that I thought is a great route, interesting and varied. And full of ants at the start of the season!
>
> We also thought that the top 2 pitches of Bilberries were rather pointless. The climbing was easy, but loose and not as well protected as the previous pitches. I would have agreed with the Webster guide and abseiled off earlier. The climbing up to that was fantastic and some of the best granite I've seen.
> We also thought that the top 2 pitches of Bilberries were rather pointless. The climbing was easy, but loose and not as well protected as the previous pitches. I would have agreed with the Webster guide and abseiled off earlier. The climbing up to that was fantastic and some of the best granite I've seen.
Again - interesting, I thought the last pitch a bit weak, but the one before it excellent - weird eh!
>
> The addition of the sports routes are excellent and the Paradiset routes a nice touch for rainy days. I also think that using Norwegean grades was the best approach. I know lots of foreign climbers and not one of them understands the British system.
> The addition of the sports routes are excellent and the Paradiset routes a nice touch for rainy days. I also think that using Norwegean grades was the best approach. I know lots of foreign climbers and not one of them understands the British system.
Overall, sounds like you had a great trip though!
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I'd agree. The last pitch was utter rubbish, but the second to last was interesting and fun.
The pitch-lenghts seem to be somewhat out of whack though... at least I had some difficulty in reaching the belays with my double 50m ropes. It is possible, that my ropes are shorter. But then again, I've used 'em on numerous other places in yurp sans problemo (up to 45m pitches).
> (In reply to TonyB)
> Again - interesting, I thought the last pitch a bit weak, but the one before it excellent - weird eh!
> Again - interesting, I thought the last pitch a bit weak, but the one before it excellent - weird eh!
I'd agree. The last pitch was utter rubbish, but the second to last was interesting and fun.
The pitch-lenghts seem to be somewhat out of whack though... at least I had some difficulty in reaching the belays with my double 50m ropes. It is possible, that my ropes are shorter. But then again, I've used 'em on numerous other places in yurp sans problemo (up to 45m pitches).
In reply to HeMa:
Yes deffo something odd about the lengths, we 'measured' them - (using the middle-mark on our 60m ropes) but maybe I got confused trying to remember them all whilst we got back to the base!
Chris
Yes deffo something odd about the lengths, we 'measured' them - (using the middle-mark on our 60m ropes) but maybe I got confused trying to remember them all whilst we got back to the base!
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs: Its not unusual! There are some very unusual estimations of pitch lengths in the Gå telemark guide to Nissedal... It just adds to the Norwegian experience of not knowing exactly what you are getting yourself into.
Grade six in Norway is in many ways like Scottish VS, in that it wasn't so many years since there were no routes given a grade over 6. I was talking to Nils Nielsen (Åndalsnes guide and alpinist, a bit famous here) one time about norwegian grades and he said "You just gotta know you can climb that grade, and a bit more, in any conditions and with any or no gear"
I think keeping the N grades combined with the comparison table was the right thing to do!
Congrats on a beautiful guidebook, It will be going with me on my one month climbing "Norges Ferie" next summer!
Dan
Grade six in Norway is in many ways like Scottish VS, in that it wasn't so many years since there were no routes given a grade over 6. I was talking to Nils Nielsen (Åndalsnes guide and alpinist, a bit famous here) one time about norwegian grades and he said "You just gotta know you can climb that grade, and a bit more, in any conditions and with any or no gear"
I think keeping the N grades combined with the comparison table was the right thing to do!
Congrats on a beautiful guidebook, It will be going with me on my one month climbing "Norges Ferie" next summer!
Dan
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