UKC

In reply to RupertD: someone should ask them.

In reply to Richard Bradley:

Yes. However, one wonders how polite they'd feel obliged to be.

In reply to MattH: I met the lads at Ilkley a while ago, i'm fully aware that they represent the true elite, especially with the combination of their extraordinary talent and cojones to match! To illustrate, didn't one of them get the third ascent of Cobra Crack before coming over here?

In reply to RupertD: Well I for one would want them to be both polite and truthful! Sounds like a job for our intrepid news editor.

I think they are the biggest story on grit for years and could be a very useful yardstick for up and coming UK climbers. I also think that not having a true 'understanding' of the British grading system has been a great help for them. I'm sure that many top British climbers would not have a go at some route simply because they are E10 or E11 and therefore too hard?

In reply to RupertD:
There's nothing wrong with them being polite, as long as they are honest with it....


Out of interest have they done Superstition? I don't remember hearing of them doing it yet it is mentioned in the blog.

London Wall onsight solo is staggering!!!

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
What are your opinions on whether an onsight solo should get a different grade to a lead? For instance could an onsight solo of a well protected E6 with the crux at the top be E7 or E8?

In reply to james oswald: No, because it is your choice to leave the gear on the floor?

In reply to Richard Bradley:
But surely it is totally different psychologically?

In reply to Sean_J:

Perhaps 'pissed all over' is a bit strong when one of them actually decked off Gaia? While it's obvious that they're among the best of the best, perhaps it also helps that:

1. The routes have been climbed before, so are known to be climbable?
2. They're coming to them without too many locally-influenced preconceptions about their grading and mystique?

In which case, while still gobsmackingly impressive, perhaps it shouldn't be such an enormous shock that they're sending them so comparatively quickly?

In reply to james oswald:

Sense of deja vu here... (as in hasn't this been discussed at UKC quite recently?)

In reply to james oswald: Absolutely, but you still have the choice. No extra E point but loads of respect.

In reply to petestack:
Yes i think it has actually.

In reply to james oswald:

No it would still be E6, but some E6s are easier to solo than other E6s (applies to all grades). That's why his onsight solo of London Wall at only E5 (I wish) is making people go wow because it's one of those routes that a lot of people fail to lead onsight.

Anyway, getting back onto the main thread topic, these lads are doing a superb job whilst over here - respect.

D's dad (can't be bothered to relogin as myself)

In reply to james oswald:

I think simon was joking...

In reply to petestack:

Recently??Seems like it's been discussed for feckin FOREVER!Please james, let's at least try keep this thread on topic, start a new one for another futile grade debate if you want.Again, nice one lads!Here's hoping the weather lets you guys make the most of time you have left.

In reply to DaveWarb:
You think!

In reply to john howard 1:

Seconded!

Chris

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: I was there today. It was busy so I left.

Just one question. What have they done on Limestone?

Andy F

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

I'm sorry to sound like a pedant, but surely the line of The Groove is that defined by the first ascentionist. The only moves James struggled on, on the day of the first ascent of The Groove, was the upper arete, which supprised him as he had previously thought this section easier than the groove section (at about E7 6c). Kevin Jorgeson got the groove moves fairly early on in his attempts on a rope, but couldn't do the upper arete, eventually deciding to settle for the finish up Fern Hill. Now it could be that he felt that there was no way he could morphologically do the moves on the upper arete and decided that he could never do them. But, does that mean that this counts as a second ascent of the route The Groove? Kevin himself is unsure in his blog and doesn't claim it as a definite second ascent. Could it be that the upper arete moves are harder than at first thought? A fantastic effort nevertheless, I just wished I'd known you couldn't hit the deck off the groove when I belayed James, I wouldn't have been quite so gripped!
Graham

I was wondering around with some mates in between some bouldering and came across Kevin's attempts on The Groove. First thing I saw was him trying to do what must be the first (very) hard move to get to the second break but unfortunately he came off from the position in the UKC photo. That was a fairly safe fall. Might have been the first time he had taken it as I think there was a comment along the lines of 'the gear holds'. He then decided to properly test the gear by pulling up on the photographer's rope to the second break, letting go of that rope and jumping off. He knew that the gear had held a smaller fall but still that took some balls! The fall was obviously bigger but relatively safe as he missed the starting ledge referred to on the blog and still had a couple of meters left to the ground.

At the time I got the impression that he hadn't led the climb at that stage; an hour or so later we saw his party walking out saying that he'd done it, so I assumed that he had just done it then, i.e. after testing the gear rather than before as the blog suggests. So I guess the impression I got was wrong. Anyway, the exact sequence of events doesn't really matter, what matters is that he did the route and was happy to jump off onto the gear (albeit after taking a smaller fall onto it). Respect!

Then one of his party (forget the name - Seagull?) showed the hordes attempting Jerry's Traverse (Font 7b) how it's done by sending it second go. We live and dream...

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Oh my sweet Lord!! Amazing.

jcm

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
This is all quite clearly the most impressive spell of trad climbing this country has ever seen. gobsmacked.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Great to see some very quick ascents of these routes. Wonder if anybody will now step up to the plate of Echo Wall or The Walk of Life?
It's interesting as a punter to watch the grades markets rise and fall with every ascent.....

In reply to Col Allott:
You got that right. Also seconding Wee Davie's comment.

In reply to Graham Hoey: I believe Kevin found the top moves on the upper arete hard as he is not as tall as James! I think he chose the Fern Hill exit as it was less eliminate than the upper arete where you could have you foot on a big break to the left.

In reply to Graham Hoey: I'm sorry to sound like a pedant, but surely the line of The Groove is that defined by the first ascentionist.


Plenty of examples of first ascentionists taking a line different to the way subsequently climbed for one reason or another. The groove of the Groove is the compelling feature/challenge here - visually at least.

In reply to Wee Davie:

I think Echo Wall could be a tricky one - especially at the moment!


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

>"I think Echo Wall could be a tricky one - especially at the moment!"

I was getting the vibe from bits and pieces that Mr Macleod might be thinking that it isn't out of the question as a scratching route. Seems implausible to me but the implausible doesn't seem to have stopped him so far.

In reply to JLS:

Could you explain the term "scratching route"? Sorry but just never heard it before.

Cheers,
S

In reply to telemarker:

Winter route that ruins a summer route with crampon and axe scratches.

In reply to JLS:

Sounds absolutely blinking horrifying to me! (But it's already so far beyond my comprehension that I could say the same about it as a rock climb...)

In reply to bentley's biceps:

Thanks for that.

In reply to Graham Hoey:

After reading Kevins report and watching committed II again, i still can't figure out how he could stop 5 feet off the ground. Would it be down to the fact that Kevin used a single rope and not double rope that James used? Even from the photo in the guide book it looks as tho you'd still hit the ground from the top of the groove.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

I'm sorry to spoil an otherwise perfectly friendly thread - but isn't it starting to get increasingly difficult to take JP's grading seriously? You'd think that by living at home he wouldn't need to over-inflate grades to pay the bills...

In reply to Ben Darvill:

>"isn't it starting to get increasingly difficult to take JP's grading seriously?"

I say no. "The Promise" and "The Groove" are hard climbs in anybody's money. One repeat does not consensus make. Especially when the value of the E grade seems to be dropping with the Pound and the exchange rate with YDS seems to be an unknown.

One thing I will say is - perhaps it was unintentional but he (JP) did, effectively, rubbish Rhapsody's line and difficulty and I see a bit of irony in what's now happening.

In reply to Ben Darvill:

He doesn't live at home.

In reply to Ben Darvill:

So you try The Groove and tell us, Ben?

[Spoiler Alert]

Don't want to spoil your on-sight, but that sequence with the double foot jiggle, pebble and slap looks well hard to me (not to mention the second crux?)...

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

beat me to it.

This whole situation does seem pretty unfortunate, if not ironic. But I think all parties are going to come out of it better informed and with the E grade system almost certainly going nowhere it will hopefully help it to be more thoroughly understood. And that won't be a bad thing.

In reply to Ben Darvill: Yeah but lots of very talented climbers had tried the cratcliffe groove, including people who had put up E9 grade routes, so it must be rock hard and credit to JP for being the first to lead it.

In reply: surely there's something wrong with the E10 grade if Kevin voluntarily fell on the pro?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

they've done loads in the peak

there's always.....

Countdown To Disaster....E8 6b..Rocky Valley
Heart Beat City..........E8 6c..?
Loaded...................E8 7a..Ilkley
Reservoir Dogs...........E8 7a..Widdop
Tender Homecoming........E8 7a..Brimham
Carmen Picasso...........E9 7a..Upper Gorple
Widdop Wall..............E9 7a..Widdop
French Duke..............E9 7a..Earl Crag

it'd be good to see some more repeats of these routes :0)

In reply to the inspiral carpet:

E8 now i think. Of little importance to anything though.

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

fair enough, still be good to see some repeats of the other routes though?

In reply to the inspiral carpet:

They've only had 6 weeks! Besides, they did New Statesman, Wellington Crack Solo and Deathwatch amongst others. I believe they even went to Almscliff.

In reply to andi turner:

while they up-graded new statesman and lowered parthian shot it does beg the question is the peak a marginaly softer touch in comparison to the yorkshire grades?


BTW this isn't meant to be the start of a debate but just ponderings

In reply to the inspiral carpet:

Not when both routes were graded by the same first ascentionist, surely!

Being a Yorkshireman myself and brought up on Yorkshire Grit, I'd like to think that the Peak is soft in comparison, however, it's simply not the case, they're all the same, generally, some tricky for the grade some soft.

We're talking about a couple of folks grade ideas here, there's bound to be some differing of opinion.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

I'm not a hard grit climber (never even climbed E1) but something about this line and the debate about its grade has got me thinking...

People have been climbing gritstone for well over 100 years. Puttrell climbed North Climb in 1890 according to my guide book. People have been climbing E9 on grit since the late 80s (Parthian Shot was first climbed in '89) and despite attempts from some of the best gritstone climbers over the last 25 years nobody has been able to lead The Grove at Cratcliffe. The first ascent of possibly the most obvious "last great problem" on grit is historic. Surely the fact that it has been tried before by other climbers for so long and remained unclimbed means that it is harder than any other route in the peak. Is there a rule about the E grade that states E10s must mean a ground fall is guaranteed from the crux. What if the climbing is so hard that it gets E10 based on technical difficulty rather than danger?

In reply to JLS: Just for the record James may of had his routes repeated but nobody has stopped to say great effort on establishing fantastic new lines.Thats what really matters.
Lets not forget James has done Equilibrium and very few others have.
I have trained with James over the last few weeks and believe me he is the real deal.

In reply to J Dunne:

Seconded!

In reply to J Dunne:
No disrespect but i assume you didn't see the thread when he made the FA ascent of his new lines?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: Still not sure I understand why people are surprised that someone who's bouldered highball V14 and climbed 9a is a pretty nifty climber. Astonishing achievements from a world class climber. Great to see that after a lot of moaning that the world's best never some to the UK, when they do come they have a good time!

In reply to james oswald:

James, I am sure John is aware of the shit that was thrown around!

I cant understand why this is a news item when he didnt do the line, "most of" is not really worth all this is it?

What do I know?

Sam

In reply to Tufas Mum:

>James, I am sure John is aware of the shit that was thrown around!

I don't think anybody has ever doubted James Pearson's climbing, Sam. Unfortunately though, he was the victim of poor journalism which meant the thread that might very well have celebrated his ascent of The Walk of Life actually focussed more on Dave Simmonite's partisan approach to the article.

>I cant understand why this is a news item when he didnt do the line

It is big news- someone has repeated the main part of a recently recorded 'last great problem'. It sounds obvious that the top section is open to interpretation.

James Pearson's reputation does not suffer in any of this.......

In reply to Wee Davie:

If that was the case then John would not have come on and said anything would he?

I am sorry but I dont agree, surely a line is a line?

It feels to me like the words pulled from his blog are very selective and designed to keep up this big grade saga!

Jack prove me wrong.

Sam

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

He seems to think the version of The Groove he did was E8.

Pic here also
http://www.momentumvm.com/cms/images/stories/groove2.jpg

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

First I am not dissing Kevin at all, he must be an amazing climber, but.....

....without the crux moves, as in the bit he could not do because he was the wrong size up to there its E8?

Did he jump off that bit as that is where he would have fallen from?


Sam

In reply to Tufas Mum:
But he did what Pearson considered to be the crux moves didn't he?

In reply to james oswald:

If Kevin couldnt do one section then that was HIS crux, not James.

In reply to james oswald:

Clearly that bit wasn't the crux for KJ, since he says it felt nearly impossible for him to do that bit.

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Interesting that they don't quote him... From his blog, "All in all, I’d say the route is technically the hardest bit of climbing I have done on the trip". Yet gets a lower E grade than other stuff he's done that's also safe? Doesn't make sense to me, I expect he'll say what he thinks on his blog at some point.

In reply to thomasadixon:
I got the E8 thing from Momentum who had obviously spoke with him.

In reply to Tufas Mum:
That didn't really answer my question did it.

In reply to thomasadixon:

Thats what I meant with "selective" reporting from Jack.

In reply to Tufas Mum:



That bit is safe as it has bomber cams and is much higher up than the groove bit.

In reply to teddy:

OK, thanks Teddy

In reply to thomasadixon:

Yet gets a lower E grade than other stuff he's done that's also safe? Doesn't make sense to me,

I just wondered which E9's that Kevin has done this trip that are also safe that you are referring to? If you mean Parthian, I think he also gave that E8.

In reply to lesleyann:
He definitely stopped 5 feet off the ground, I watched him do it. They had a single rope with gear in the break below Kevin and more gear just above ground level. The belayer was using a gri-gri and ran backwards as Kevin let go, the fact that he knew Kevin was coming off would have helped.

In reply to MD:

If he used a grigri and a single rope does that not increase the impact forces!

What was the piece of gear?

In reply to teddy:

He gives New Statesman E9 on his blog...although I guess it being what he calls boulder problem height (doesn't really look it to me!) doesn't make it safe.

In reply to thomasadixon:

Yes i guess his definition of 'safe' is probably somewhat different to ours! Cheers for clarifying.

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Just seems not to correlate with his blog...amazing stuff anyway, all far beyond me

In reply to Tufas Mum:


Well I'm sure the great UKC powers could change the title to 'Jorgeson establishes new variation on The Groove' but I'm not sure it matters.. Presumably it'll go in any future guide as a variation, and if it's more logical then it might become the more popular version..

In reply to Simon Lee:> Plenty of examples of first ascentionists taking a line different to the way subsequently climbed for one reason or another.

Correct, but I'm not sure being unable to do a section of a climb is a good enough reason and has led to a line being changed! (excepting rockfall, loss of holds etc etc). I can think of a few routes where I've done the crux and then failed on an 'easier' section higher up. I could, I suppose, have missed out this section and found an easier line, but I wouldn't have considered I'd repeated the route! Anyway, blame Neil Foster for the upper part, it was his idea!
Another point worth considering. How does hanging off a break and saying to your belayer, (for e.g.) "OK I'm going to fall off now, are you ready" (Belayer takes in rope, checks stance etc.) compare with someone falling off whilst actually climbing where the belayer is trying to pay out a certain amount of slack for a move?
Being the pedent that I am, I would say that the groove on The Groove has been climbed! A superb achievement in its own right.
Graham

In reply to Graham Hoey:

Interesting, it depends on what you mean by an 'easier line' that Kevin took. It seems to be totally eliminate the way the FA did it so I would call the way Kevin did it the true line (not seeking out difficulty for its own sake and avoiding nearby footledges in the process).

As regards the tester fall Kevin took, he says on his blog that his belayer did not even run back so even if slack was paid out for the climber actually climbing, it seems that a deckout would not be a possibility with an alert belayer: this would have a big consequent effect on the E grade (in terms of it being described as 'death', 'serious injury' or 'safe').

In reply to teddy:
His belayer moved backwards, about 3 feet. What it actually says in his blog was "Didn't need to have George run back after all"

In reply to Anonymous:

But of course JP was grading for an odd pair of shoes! :-P

In reply to Graham Hoey:

I agree with you, Graham, about the original line remaining unrepeated, and I suspect future ascents will aim to include James's finish rather than Kevin's. We must remember though that these guys are on holiday (essentially) with limited time and unpredictable weather, so I don't think anyone can blame him for taking the line he did post-groove if it meant getting something of a tick. If he had just done the first ascent would everyone on here be moaning that he'd avoided the challenge?

In reply to Tufas Mum:

Selective reporting?

Sorry - you are so far off the mark it is unbelievable. I have no connections to James Pearson or to Kevin Jorgeson or to the route of The Groove. I also wrote this news report within hours of Kevin's ascent, and within minutes of getting the information, so I'm sure it is 'incomplete' however to accuse me of being selective is quite offensive.

Perhaps you should bear in mind that you are friends with James Pearson, your partner belayed him on one of his new routes recently and he works for your business as a climbing coach, the success of which is built on his fame as a top climber. This may have an impact on your impartiality.

I'm not causing 'a big grade saga' - I haven't offered my opinion on any of the grades, as what would I know - I haven't done the routes.

I have however just recently defended James and Dave Simmonite in an email to a blogger after reading this: http://lifeinthevertical.blogspot.com/ which I thought was way out of order.

# News report says (most of) in the title (initial newsflash didn't, as we didn't have that info, but was changed as soon as we found that out - about an hour later).

# News report explains that he didn't climb the top section in the first paragraph.

# News report then goes on to directly discus the now difference in opinion in the danger aspect of the route.

# News report then goes on to compare that to another recent new route that we have a video for.

# News then goes on to quote Kevin saying how he compares it to other routes, and how great it is.

# Then I go on to make a comment about it being most important that Kevin had a great time on a great bit of rock.

# That is factual reporting. As soon as possible after the ascent, with an actual ascent photo.

If you don't think that a repeat (and possible change of grade) of 'most of' The Groove is news, then I'm glad you don't do my job.

Great effort Kevin, awesome looking route James, bad form Sam Mayfield.

Jack Geldard.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Bit like Sonnie Trotter climbing Direquiem as an alternative finish to Rhapsody; he obviously thought it was a more natural line.

He's made it pretty clear that he hasn't climbed exactly the same line as the FA; he's very much qualified the terms of the ascent. So what's the problem?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

First of all, well done to KJ for the tick - what an amazing performance!

Now my question: given the general feel of this thread and the terminnology of the reporting (not a dig against it, please note!) can I thrown another spanner in the works and ask that,
if KJ sent 'most' of The Groove, did SteMac send 'most' of Rhapsody? ....*tongue slightly in cheek*

In reply to MD:

OK, I said that his belayer did not have to run back so we are saying the same thing.

In reply to Fraser:


What do you mean? He climbed all of Rhapsody via the FA's line??

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
>


Exactly.

In reply to MD:

Well thats, well impressive, his belayer must be very very good and very very fast.
I'd never in a million years be able to climb anything like that, ever, but if i could i'd know i'd deck for sure!

In reply to teddy:

>"He climbed all of Rhapsody via the FA's line??"

More or less but from the photos I've seen it looks like he used a different sequence on the last couple of metres and finished perhaps a metre or two to the left of the finishing hold Macleod was coming off while racking up the air miles for E11.

It's would be hard to say if his new sequence was actually any easier but I'll be interested to see how it looks on Committed II.

In reply to lesleyann:

There is no risk of decking with a competant belayer according to Kevin

In reply to JLS:

Yes, he used a different sequence to the FA and Sonnie. He didn't finish a 'meter or two left of the finishing hold'. he just went with a different hand for the top of the crag I think - in my book this is not a different line. I'm also intrigued to see Committed 2.

In reply to JLS:



I'd better go back over all the routes I've climbed and make sure I used exactly the same sequence as the FA. If not - no ticks!!

I might end up finding that I haven't actually climbed anything at all, ever!

Surely with reference to The Groove we are talking about a completely different line here, not a different sequence like Rhapsody and The Promise.

Personally, I think the full on repeat is still up for grabs, even if the top of the line is a bit eliminate (the irony of this did jump out at me too after JP turned his nose up at Rhapsody!).

I remember Steve McClure saying of Rhapsody something along the lines of, "Dave has set us this challenge, and that is what I came here to climb regardless of it's escapability" - same still applies to The Groove.

Absolutely awesome climbing though when all's said and done - this is the big one everyone was waiting for really wasn't it?

In reply to chris_j_s:


Yes, I agree to what you are saying here. Good job we are not in America, otherwise the irony might have escaped everybody!!

In reply to teddy:

You are saying a sodding lot about this yet have no profile so we don't know if you are a teenage wizzkid, teenager with just opinions or someone actually worth listening to having walked the walk instead of just talking the talk.

Please let us know.

In reply to teddy: I would call the way Kevin did it the true line (not seeking out difficulty for its own sake and avoiding nearby footledges in the process).

Hi Teddy
If you look at the line of the groove at Cratcliffe, it does actually continue after the break, bearing leftwards then runs out part way up the arete. James followed this line.
Graham

In reply to Jon Read:
Hi Jon,
I'm very impressed with what these lads have achieved, but as you know I've spent over 20 years researching climbing history and I am unfortunately a pedant wrt historical accuracy. I certainly don't intend any criticism of Kevin's ascent, I'm just trying to be objective when it comes to recording ascents.
Cheers
Graham

In reply to Graham Hoey:

Oh right, I'm sure you know much more about this bit of rock than me so I'll bow to your superior knowledge. Cheers for the info.

In reply to sutty:

No need to get aggro. I didn't realise it was mandatory to have a profile to contribute to this debate. If it is I would be more than happy to fill one out. Otherwise, I am happy to continue as things are. Unfortunately, the internet is not like having a face to face debate.

In reply to Graham Hoey:

A bit of an aside - I wonder if the lads get pissed of being followed everywhere by 'the media' - shutters clicking, people abbing next to them, expectant hushes and smart-arsed comment?


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I doubt it seeing as that's how they make a living!

In reply to Chris Craggs:

maybe, but in this day and age, it's part and parcel of doing numerous historical ascents in such an accessable and popular area!

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Morning Jack

OK, where to start!

Firstly I am really sorry if you found what I put offensive, I didnt mean it to be. I would hate to do your job!

When I used the word selective, don´t you have to be selective, or you would just copy and paste the whole blog into the news item.

What I should have put was selective and balanced. To me it did not come across that way! I think a few others on the thread felt the same and said as much.

You say I am impartial because I know James, however I remember feeling the same way about Dave when the gang went and climbed the E11 (I dont know Dave), I just feel for all the climbers that put so much effort into a climb, grade it and this happens.

As a none climber living in your world maybe I see it through different eyes, I am not sure. The grade debate is way above my head as you would have heard when I spoke to Mick Ryan in the bar yesterday. I have way too simple a view about it.

OK, I stand corrected that it should be a news report, I was wrong.

I am looking forward to Dave Simmonites report in Climb as he has spent alot of time with these boys, will be good to read what he puts after watching them all climb.

Sam Mayfield

In reply to teddy:

Come on, Ted. That really is nonsense!

At the top of the groove section on The Groove is a horizontal break, traversed by Fernhill Indirect and Trick or Treat, John Allen's super reverse girdle.

Above this break, twin cracks lead straight up into a disappearing groove just right of the arete. I always felt this was the natural line as one feature is effectively a continuation of the other, and I was pleased that James apparently agreed (though I hadn't talked to him before he put up the route).

Avoiding this continuation involves hand traversing all the way across to the Ferhill crux, then all the way back left again on Ferhill (as Fernhill direct). That is great fun, but hardly "The True Line".

Interestingly both ascentionists of the groove (as opposed to The Groove) eschewed my proposed finish, straight out across the middle of the roof between Fernhill and Boothill. This is definitely on (I once went to Cratcliffe with John Allen when he spent much of the day hanging on an ab rope looking at this) and yes, it would be eliminate, but it would also make for a powerful and contrasting integrale.

That would just leave the final challenge on this particular wall:-

Thin seam right of the groove on The Groove (no gear), move right and layback up short flake above the Fernhill crux (perfect gear), then desperate thin moves up the wall to the wide crack on Renaissance.

Anyone fancy a challenge?

Neil

In reply to Neil Foster:

I do not know this wall much so I should stop talking about it and will bow to your superior knowledge, like with Graham! I think the very fact that the top crux can be circumvented on jugs is a shame and I would not blame the Yank for doing this, especially on a short holiday trip.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
if he keeps going like this in a few months he might be ready for the real thing @ almscliffe

well done kevin.

In reply to Neil Foster:

You are the All-Seeing Eye (for a line). Piece of cake compared to making sense of the Castellan area and coming away with a new route.

In reply to Jon Read: yes what would be the headpoint grade of Revelations?!?(1st ascent 1985- A le Menestral-though of course he had done nothing on gogarth...'real climbing').Ignoring all the grading debates that have gone on i think these achievements are awesome and cannot but w inspire talented folk to carry on pushing the standards here in the UK.If not in the peak perhaps in scotland how many lines are there up there i wonder(hundreds?thousands?)?

In reply to witnessthis: Can I just say, (as far as I know but probably earlier) when we started trying 'The Groove' way back in the 70's. (that 'we' is most of the top grit lads of the day BTW (I was just tagging along!) the 'Line' was always considered to be as Kevin did it. The left hand arete was regarded as an eliminate finish that was irrelevant to the 'line' of the 'last great problem on grit', we were aware of it but it was very much a variation to 'the line'.
Al

In reply to Al Evans:

Sometimes lines look a bit silly and eliminatish and it is only when you climb them that they feel worthwhile and independent. I was never inspired to do Right Wall because having seen other climbers on it the route seemed to go all over the shop without rhyme or reason and even into Lord. It was only when I did it that the line made sense. Like you say the groove is the main challenge but I don't think you can categorically say that Pearson/Foster finish is irrelevant unless you have climbed it. In a sense the groove itself was climbed in an eliminate way given that it wasn't bridged.