UKC

In reply to Anonymous:


Absolutely!

Who the hell are we to tell others how they should or should not behave?

Sometimes the need to rage against the machine is more than just an impulse. It's a matter of survival. The survival of the opportunity to live life in intensity.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Sorry mate I don't get your drift. We all feel like that sometimes don't we?

Anyway my post was directed at Joel not you. I don't mind you asking difficult questions.

In reply to Anonymous: I think you think too much. There you got me to judge. Oh and posting anonymously, I judge you for that too. I drive fast and wear whatever is mostly clean, care to judge me? Who cares???

In reply to AlisonS:

Get to bed, it's late!

Night.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Heehee. It is. Good night.

In reply to AlisonS:
No. i just suggested it may be a possibility, peoples actual opinions dont necessarily need to be the same as what they write on here. Im sorry you take it all so seriously, what can i say? Im obvously quite selfish. Id like to say i wouldn't do it again but that aint probably wont happen unfortunately. I would lke to point out though that the only time iver trolled on threads about climbing are those in which the subject of the thread is someone whos desired publicity. Ran Fiennes, Andy K errm i cant really think of lots more but its never been on a thread about anyone whoes purely going about doing there climbing and just happening to do newsworthy routes.

In reply to AlisonS:

I very much doubt that you are the sort of person who does not let people know when you are displeased with them and that you wish to alter their behaviour.

Enough said.

In reply to JoeL 90: Was holding back a little very rather than quite selfish might be more approriate.

In reply to JoeL 90:

That was a qualification of this, yes?

In reply to AlisonS:

Judgement is a loaded word anyway. I prefer 'influence', 'self expression', 'debate', it's stuff we all do all the time.

Commenting on Andy is somewhat similar to remarking on the best alpine kit but more philosophical and interesting for it. A comment on his actions should no more be taboo than any other comments on this web site.

In reply to Anonymous:
>

People having adventures and living life to the full is not something that is likely to displease me. Especially if they are competent and have assessed the risks wisely and responded to the conditions appropriately.

In reply to AlisonS: I thought it was worth adding firstly as its undoubtably true being a middle class climber, going to university with no job - not exactly making any contribution to society yet taking alot from it. Also just in case anyone though i really did beleive i though i was spreading happiness to those on UKC - i though it best to point out that the posting of such nonsense albeit valid and acceptable nonsense was in fact for my own entertainment and not theirs.

In reply to JoeL 90:

I think you should just go climbing a lot and have a good time; have loads of adventures and dump this class rubbish. It's just an illusion.

In reply to AlisonS: He bailed before the crux as he got tired. Doesn't seem particlerly well though through. Doesn't displease me either but you can still criticise things which dont displease you.
For example its possible to condemm Gorings decision to commit suicide on the eve of his excecution on religous grounds. However, doubt many people are displeased by his decision.

In reply to AlisonS:

Yeah maybe for a babyboomer (i dont know how old you are sorry if your not) but it still exists. Ive just started climbing regularly again actually its really good fun not sure why i stopped in the first place, unfortunately im now drawn to these forums and ive already looked at all the great pics and read everyones comments on the routes i want to do. Unfortunately rather than doing something constructive i then resorted to posting on this thread.

In reply to JoeL 90:

Deep, fresh snow is hard work, especially when hauling. It might not have been like that. Trouble is, you have to book your flight in advance and hope the conditions will be OK. Sometmes they aren't.

When did Goering climb the Eiger?

In reply to AlisonS:

I couldn't give you a date of the top of my head actually. In fact i wasn't even aware he did. Educations not as good as it was eh?

In reply to AlisonS:

>"And actually a very sensible, well researched and carefully thought out objective for the style of ascent and the risk factors involved."

In YOUR judgement!! So when you judge something to be good, that's OK. But when someone judges the same thing to be bad, that's not OK. Nice one.

ie. "Don't judge me = don't say things about me I don't like". But if what you say is 'nice', well then that's OK. So much for your aversion to the 'cotton wool' society, Alison.

Going unprepared to a notoriously dangerous face, trying to haul a portaledge up a route with too much snow on it (!) and clearly not understanding the psychological and emotional ramifications of having constant phone contact with loved ones during such an attempt does not smack of "sensible ... carefully thought out" etc.

Maybe Andy's ego and ambition got the better of him and, short of new material for next year's shows, he thought "what famously hard thing can I get on - and off - with just a few days free over the hols, then talk engagingly about in my shows as to what a silly man I was to have even tried?". Cue the well-known 'Eiger' brand. He's now garnered much publicity for "attempting the Eiger Direct solo in winter". Mission accomplished!

I know I'm being unfair to Andy here, because he can't argue back to my face, and I wasn't on the Eiger with him, but really I'm just using him here as a case in point, a point about climbers in general, having been stupid, egotistical, deluded and ill-prepared myself on more than a few climbs.

Too many people lionise famous climbers as if their motivations are always pure and righteous, or at the very least, logical. High end climbing is competitive, like it or not. To succeed in competition you need to be selfish, driven to prove something, and maybe a little dumb (so as not to be distracted by imagination or good sense) - no matter your IQ. A lot of what we read in the climbing media is just white lies and self-justification for this unsavoury (ie. basic human) behaviour - behaviour that is accepted, even encouraged, in other pursuits. But climbing is special, right? We don't want to admit our passion is less than pure.

Rational choice theory is bunk, as the current financial mess has proven once again. People are not logical. Famous climbers, like the rest of us, feel insecure about their lives and achievements, or lack thereof. They need to prove their strength to the tribe, like dumb boys. They get greedy. They feel the need to have their lives and choices validated. They care too much what others think. They succumb to the lure of money and, if they're 'lucky', fame. Eventually they get over it and settle for something else.

In other words, they're just like everybody else. To pretend they're not is naive and actually quite damaging to the climbing community. Delusion always is.

D

In reply to Damo:

What a very odd response.

Do you actually know what rationale I had for making my assessment; the one that you negatively judge so emphatically? Do you think it was not based on information, research and evidence?

I don't see how you can know that. Nevertheless, you are entitled to free speech.

But don't effing call me naive. Coz I'm confidently not.

In reply to AlisonS: You were passing judgement on the wisdom of choosing a winter solo of the Harlin as an objective. Have you climbed the North face of the eiger, or any ED routes, or any solos of aid routes in winter up 1800m of unstable limestone. Me neither, but i think your naive in the sense that you think you could make a judgement on how sensible the choice of this route was.
Other than people who are simply reporting facts and lets face it few on here have with a some very helpful and noteable exceptions everyone else is posting judgements/opinions dont try and pretent just because you are judging that it was a good idea or Andy K is the best thing since sliced bread and should be PM that it is not a judgement. Judging doesn't just refer to negative judgements about people.
Lets be honest on threads like this most of us have no idea what its like to do hard routes or train hard so all weve got is our ill informed opinions. I think if you didn't post judgements for a week then youd post maybe a twentieth of what you do and i nothing. If you stand by your statement that judgements shouldn't be allowed and act on it yourself then i wont post judgements either.

In reply to Damo:


What on earth makes you think climbers are strong or like to think they are? I think you must be believing your own internal ego hype! Physically in a particular way, well yes. Psychologically or intellectually, not necesarily at all. Climbers tend to be selfish, black and white people, controlling, obsessives (and often compulsives too); lacking in weakness and insecurity because of the strength of their own egos; "strong" only if you think these are positives.


I think this a question for Mick!


Don't bung UKC's flaws on me!


Of course! But what you are invoking is a mastery of the self which few of us have and which is a character trait that given I know i'm poor at myself, I don't expect in others. Empathy is usually the best place to start before orientating your criticism.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Yes.. ..i suppose some people are payed to ask Amy Winehouse a load of questions too (which isn't to equate Amy Winehouse with Andy K!).


Because we're selfish bastewards who get a kick out of it! There's no mystery there! Anyone who thinks there is is just deluding themselves. The reality is that a Paul Williams could happen to any of us any day - a hold breaks unexpectedly and we fall to our deaths. Or, unknown to us, some numpty above pulls down a ton of rock which makes the helmut we're wearing look like paper. You put yourself in the situation, you increase the probability, however little, of death or morbidity happening to you. Andy knows the situation, as does his wife only to well. And what they have decided between themselves, is precisely thay, between themselves, irrespective of any communication from Andy to the outside world. The fact we are all hypocrits makes us poor candidates for throwing stones. And don't suggest there is a difference between asking a question and making a judgement.. ...these sorts of questions always have answers in mind!

In reply to Jimbo W:

What a swindle?

"Lost so much much weight I think I'll need to buy some trousers tomorrow"

http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/

So that is what it was all about - a weight loss programme.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

seems better than the Atkins Mick! :0)

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: I have been reading Andy's book and the blog, as he climbed. In reading about his past experiences the blog resonates more strongly in terms of his motivation for climbing. I don't know him at all but I doubt he would be hurt by anything Mick or anyone else might say or ask on here. He writes extensively about his doubts in his ability, his guilt for his loved ones, his terror and his desperation.
He has always pushed himself beyond his ability, particularly in his early alpine experiences, but with luck and determination he has come through stronger. He has always struggled with leaving loved ones behind and risking his life, but cannot separate his urge to climb from who he is. When he is climbing his thoughts are constantly at home, when he is at home his thoughts are about climbing.
The sheer hard work and exhaustion of climbing and load hauling on a solo attempt is described in detail in his account of Reticent Wall in Yosemite. The mental fatigue and the consequences of even the smallest mistake when in those situations he talks about frankly. He seems constantly to be asking himself 'What am I doing here? I have no right to even consider I am good enough to do this. I should bail out now.' But in his greatest triumphs by total commitment and determination he has succeeded and that brief moment at the top of a climb is the answer to the question 'What am I doing here?' Very shortly after that the self doubt and the dreams of climbs not done, return.
In this climb on the Eiger I think that part of the reason he bailed may have been the texts from his wife and son that bring that guilt and self doubt into real-time as though they are there on the face with him as opposed to the mental turmoil and conflict that goes on in his head in previous climbs. He did say he thought the mobile was a mistake. Of course in thinking this I cannot take account of the conditions up there and it may well be that he would have bailed anyway. That is the question I would ask him. Perhaps you could Mick and let us know.

In reply to redsulike:


I've asked Andy to have a look. I think he's a bit busy shopping for new trousers.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

There seems to be a bit of arguing as to whether soloing the Eiger North Face in winter is a 'good idea' and to me this is rather missing the point. Climbing is, in its very essence, choosing to do things that might be deemed unwise - its just all relative and we pick where we go on the scale of difficulty. For someone like Andy a suitable mental and physical challenge is an attempt like this one, (for me it's probably more like a sketchy VS on an overcast day but that is hardly the main issue...)

Is part of the beauty of mountaineering not testing yourself against things most people would baulk at? I know Andy raises issues himself about how to justify doing dangerous things while your loved ones sit at home and so in that respect I don't think this kind of debate is wrong per se. I do feel a little uncomfortable though with a group of climbers (is that still what we are?) criticising other climbers for doing dangerous routes where the outcome is uncertain. In doing so are we not picking needlessly at beautiful irony (trying to do unsafe things safely) at the very heart of our own sport?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

May all the critics and doomsayers please read the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_Poppy_Syndrome

"... it is seen as a societal phenomenon in which people of genuine merit are criticized or resented because their talents or achievements elevate them above or distinguish them from their peers."

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

re: "
Andy K is one of our most talented and colourful alpinists..."

Really? On what do you base that judgement?

In reply to tim carruthers:


troll?

In reply to Postmanpat:
Do you mean he's done the Troll Wall?

Andy's reply....

Back on flat the flat again, and I think it’s time to do some explaining, both about the Eiger attempt and how I set about doing it (blog, filming etc), as it’s kicked up quite a lot of interest on various websites - primarily on UKC.

First off lets get one thing clear - I don’t consider rope soloing the Eiger direct any big thing beyond that of a personal goal. It’s been soloed many times before - including a 27 hour winter solo by the legendary Slavko Sveticic - and maybe even another fellow slow rope soloing brit Phil Thornhill (although I’m not 100% sure about that). It’s worth saying this as I can imagine proper climbers (Nick Bullock etc) grumbling that I’m making a big deal of this. Well I’m not, and never intended anyone to imagine this was a big deal (if you tried a second winter solo of the Young Spider it would).

Secondly was this a foolhardy attempt?

Lots more: http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Excellent. I think he has answered most if not all questions and any criticisms of him openly and honestly. No doubt some will choose to disagree and might even want to come back at some of the things he has said. Nevertheless, for a top climber (although he wouldn't agree) to answer questions from 'anybodies' the day after quitting a route is fantastic.
Its actually a testament to the internet, mobile phones and technology empowering 'us' and making communication more democratic; long may it continue and evolve.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

No,it's called Alpinism

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Thanks, I enjoyed reading that.

It's very decent of him to answer the questions people have been raising and I have to agree that the immediacy of the blogging is of interest to a lot of people. If anyone objects to the principal of Andy's blog may I respectfully suggest they don't read it...

In reply to Damo:

A well articulated argument.

In reply to Alyson:



Hear here... exactly my thoughts...

si

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Would you know if Andy will be setting dates for his next speaking event, I went on his blog and there was nothing on his upcoming events. I know he has a very hectic schedule, but, has he mentioned anything ?

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Whatever his motivations- hats off to Andy for yet another fantastic escapade in a life of endeavour most of us will only dream of!

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: some time ago i said WOW come back safe.

ok so there's some criticism on the forum - all of which andy seems to have answered.

my point is, he's done something more than i have done. if you consider him a "professional" climber, i'd kinda figure that taking what appears to others as a risk is part of the game. (i climb and my non-climbing friends think i'm mad).

ok, so he's used modern technology to keep us updated - the same technology that we all use to read this forum. i enjoyed reading his blogs - if you don't, then don't read them.

we all have choices, some people agree with us, others don't.

but most importantly, he's back safe.

Hey there my limey numb-nutz,

I really need to check out the British Forums more often. I shudder to think about all the fun I've been missing.

There's nothing wrong with the occasional live-feed alpine climb. Hell, even my uncorrupted, pure-as-the-driven snow countryman Mr. House has taken to making satellite phone calls from basecamp to keep the masses updated on his latest exploits. And remember Alex Lowe's dispatches from Great Trango?

Are there any meaningful differences between those media adventures and Mr. Kirkpatrick's shenanigans? (Other than the obvious fact that House and Lowe occasionally make it to the top of their climbs?) Where does one draw the line between a heart-felt desire to communicate the alpine experience and an attempt to, say... fabricate a false experience?

I must say there is an eery symmetry here between the Eiger attempt and a video I recently saw that featured Andy dragging his kit and video camera up the Torre Valley in terrible winter conditions. There's the obligatory suffering-in-the-bivy shot, and then they press on to the base of the difficulties in a nasty looking windstorm. Just when things start to get REALLY hairy, when the audience might assume that the boys are actually doing some proper climbing, I noticed something peculiar.

"Hmmm," I said to myself. "That doesn't look like Patagonia granite... "
A second later another shot flashed on the screen. "And that... that kind of looks like something on the Augille du Midi."

Those of you who shelled out 10 quid to own the movie, feel free to go grab the remote and check for yourself. Maybe you'll get a refund if you can name the two Euro routes standing in for the business on Exocet. (Think Gully #3 and easy telephrique access)

Anyways... I have no problem with people documenting their climbs however they choose. I just hope that when Andy edits his Eiger movie -- he keeps it to stuff that happened on the Eiger.

In reply to mr mills:

So you can listen to his profound insights such as "damp underwear are not very comfortable but they are desirable in a woman"

not my cup of tea, and have you seen the state of his house? He should have been doing some DIY not pratting about in the Eiger. My wife wouldn't tolerate a fat skiving git like that.

In reply to Joey Bag of Doughnuts:

Joey - will we see an expose at the Huffington Post?

Loving your work.

Mick

Nah... There's no money in it. But I can't resist taking the piss out of a mate when they push it a little too far. And I'd expect my mates to do the same to me.

-- FW

In reply to Anonymous: Maybe you need to loose the wife then

I had no idea we were blessed with such a host of talented alpinists on UKC. I hope some of you grizzled old keyboard warrior show Mr Kirkpatrick how it should be done. I'll be looking forward to you updates. Hopefully you'll shun this technological based media whoring and update your progress via a pygmy cleft-stick runner to Alpiglen.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:

Looking forward to Andy going for the winter accent of Walk of Life...

In reply to Joey Bag of Doughnuts:

Good work on the R+I K2 article .

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Rocktalk certainly is a treat this week...

In reply to Anonymous:

I suppose you have to sacrifice some things in life to be an Extreme Alpinist like Andy Kirkpatrick, the guy is at the top of his game and should be commended not riduculed.

P.s - I like his humor, very funny guy, down to earth ! Seen his talks before.
I think you should leave his personal life out of forums like this, but I`d be the first to defend you`r right to an opinion as Im a bit outspoken at times myself ! ho hum :o

In reply to Joey Bag of Doughnuts:

Geez Freddie, you're such a hater! Why can't we all just get along?

You're, like, so negative, brah!

:-D

In reply to Damo: You're absolutely right. Apologies. I just thought it should be part of the public discussion, that somehow a photo of me climbing in Scotland (and another shot of a different Yank in Chamonix) ended up in a movie about Andy climbing in Patagonia. Is that communicating reality? Who would have suspected that occasionally even Andy needs a stunt double? Must have learned about it from Bear Grylls.

I'm sure it was a simple mistake or merely used to convey the 'abstract' drama of winter climbing... But climbing and media is a slippery slope, and I just felt I had to bring it up, in the interest of keeping everybody honest.

Ironically, we've never met but I have the strong sense that Andy and I would get along swell. As he noted on his blog, the people you often clash with the most are frequently the most similar to you....

--Freddie Wilkinson (Andy's stunt double)

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC: What about his timing? I'm sure his kids wanted to know where Daddy was on Christmas morning.

In reply to aln: Was he there on Christmas morning? In the blog it says the 28th.

In reply to mr mills:

That Eiger jaunt wasn't extreme alpinism. He went camping on a snow slope for f**k sake!

In reply to Gasmerchant:

Hehe! Just gets me thinking of all those keyboard-alpinists in their 'mid-life' Merrells and Lidl soft shells. Andy might have bitten off more that he could chew this time? More likely he just wasn't feeling it. Happens to all of us. I wouldn't be the climber I am today if I hadn't failed on many an over-ambitious objective. I can't believe someone gets slated for backing off a route or even worse, attempting a route!! This is the first time I've used UKC for a long time and all the moaning with the odd joke to try and lift the atmosphere reminds me why I've stayed away. "It is not the critic who counts".

In reply to Joey Bag of Doughnuts:

It's not always practical to catch up with the people you film in abstract shots, and that's a pity because it's nice to be able to acknowledge them when you can. Why don't you email Andy and let him know that you were his "stunt double?" These forums are not the best place to convey private but helpful information of that sort.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
>

Well said Mick!... I suspect that you'll never get any closer to the truth than the question of "Why do we all dress up as massive owls." but good on ya all the same.

P.S. to be serious for a moment, I really do sleep in an owl suit. Is that any more reprehensible than Kirkpatrick backing off the Eyeger?.. I think not.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

seconded.

In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
nice one mr kirkpatrick. so long as you got what you went for - or didnt and will keep at it, im happy for you.

let all the wankers on the site fight over the ethics and nit-pickings, put words in other mouths and quote from books. never listen to anyone who hasnt been there themselves.
andys at the sharp end, for reasons all his own. i dont doubt hes taken into account aspects of his personal life.
no one has to justify why they do this stuff - and none of us know the minutea.

go hard mate, and may your next trip away be even wilder (in the best possible way)

In reply to tim carruthers:

Obviously my mistake then ! Think he has done other stuff hmmmm !!!

In reply to Joey Bag of Doughnuts:

Ironic considering the grief he gave Humar of such activities!

In reply to ice.solo:

exactly.

In reply to AKM -

"all the moaning with the odd joke to try and lift the atmosphere reminds me why I've stayed away."

Second that: although I suspect neither UKC nor Andy are particularly bothered about the attention this has caused.. who was it said there was no such thing as bad publicity....