UKC

Over on 8a.nu they are now slagging off RockFax for "stealing" from local climbers. Good grief, they are going rapidly downhill in their content. Surprised there has not been any comments from our RockFax friends here...

In reply to Nj:

I've just posted this there so I might as well post it here too. It is interesting that there is all this talk about 'stealing' yet the people making that accusation have never seen the book.


Posted on 8a.nu:

One of the problems many travelling climbers have when visiting crags in France is getting hold of the local information. The guidebooks cover very small areas and are usually only available in selected locations. The result of this is that climbers either just visit the main popular crags, or they visit the new crags without proper information, which can cause problems if they park in the wrong place, or climb there at the wrong time of year when the crag is closed for some reason.

The new Rockfax guides to France aim to help travelling climbers by bringing together lots of small crags, together with the more popular ones, into a few books. The books are being carefully researched so that we have good access information to avoid problems with local landowners. For most of the crags we will not be including all the sectors, just a few, we will then be pointing at local guidebooks where people can get extra information.

The information in these books is not copied from other books - in many cases that is impossible because it doesn't even exist in other guidebooks. All the photos and maps and information is being researched by the author. Of course we do use local guidebook for the route names, and we also use the local grades, although we do assess those ourselves as well.

There has always been a question about local climbers funding bolting by selling local guidebooks. In our extensive experience the net effect of an English-language guidebook offering broad coverage of an area is that more travelling climbers visit an area which results in a boost in local trade and an increase in local guidebook sales.

There is more information about the Rockfax policy on Access and Bolting here - http://www.rockfax.com/general/access.html

Alan James, Rockfax and UKClimbing.com

In reply to Nj:



never heard of it

is it a gay dating site?

In reply to The Pylon King:


It's certainly heading that way!

In reply to Nj:


better tell fiend then

In reply to Anonymous:

There is no reason to be anonymous here, even if you do live in France. Just register a User Profile and post. I have removed your post simply because we have a rule about no anonymous posters.

Your points are good ones but by leaving them up I would compromise our integrity.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Guidebook for France?? Where details please.

The long and the short of it is that Rockfax get their finger out, do the work PDQ, print guidebook. I was looking for guidebooks in France last summer for Toulon / Marseilles. £20.00 covered one limited area (very good though) but there wasn't on sale (in Decathlon at least) a 100 best type guide for the region, Which is what I needed as a visiting climber. Why oh why do guidebooks still use cartoons / sketches?? for route line info, wierd. Takes a photo job done. Keep up the good work I say.

In reply to andrew300169:

interesting editorial in Desnivel...

http://www.desnivel.com/object.php?o=18116

In reply to panyan:

My Bablefish translation isn't very good of that. Can anyone do a quick translation of the gist of it?

Alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Free guidebook of choice in it for someone..

Alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Google's language translator seems a tad better than the Babelfish Alan. You can grasp what they are on about mostly!

In reply to: Alan James - UKC:

'plagio' and 'parasitismo' don't sound too promising from my nil knowledge of Spanish.

In reply to Alan James - UKC: Your bit is

There are other cases in which the plagiarism or the pure parasitism goes at the time that the field of work. A well-known example is of the famous RockFax. In addition to researching (which sometimes yes is synonymous of pirating and in other ways not), partly the work is proper, and they contain their own errors, while they offer a information directed to covering the needs of a climber's profile - such as the foreign climber - that they know in their own limits. Without, perhaps for respecting this ethical relation of symbiosis between the local equiper/bolter and the person popularising the area when they are not the same person, sometimes offering better works than the original. For two reasons: to be wider on having ignored the particular restrictions imposed by the secretivos (?, locals access?) and sometimes having been more homogeneous on having offered a regradation of the routes beyond reproducing what the authors have said.

In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat: thinking about it -regradation seems to suggest regrading of routes or redescribing them pumpy/technical etc.

In reply to Alan James - UKC: best of luck with a better translation.

The " just commerce " of the climbing guides

A nourished group of equipers/bolters of pirenaicas and prepirenaicas areas, throw the voice of alarm before what they qualify as " piracy without conscience ", " pure plagiarism of already released guides ".

For some equipers, authors of foreign guides come to his area and get to know him abourt what links them in terms of ethics etc., this is a diamond marketing approach. They purloin so that others extract a slice of his distribution - not only in his own country but also in all the different countries they reach and that they have controlled - without the areas researched and the bolters places benefit. For the climbers of the still cold and rainy Europe, Spain keeps on being a destination of the not too burning sun during good part of the year because of the good weather. A magnificent place to climb, where the bad thing is not to make " business " (rather limited) with but against others

A new voice of alarm has just thrown in our section of Letters a nourished group of equipadores of zones pirenaicas and prepirenaicas. They qualify of " I practise piracy without conscience ", of pure plagiarism of released guides, the initiative of a few German climbers to edit a guide of his area ("his" area be understood not in terms of property but as those where they have worked in a significant way for the development of the sectors/areas).

Now see above post

To fight against this unjust situation turns out to be much more complicated that to accept it with resignation. Perhaps they would have to place the route detail of here on the "market" of there. Meanwhile, it fits the resource to the pataleo (dunno), the informative denunciation to the mass media of here and of there for the sake of not written ethics and of a difficult and very expensive justice of managing. The border that separates the immoral thing of the illegal thing is so diffuse that rarely a local developer and author of the guides of his areas will dare to defend his rights of intellectual property, and of bolters. But there are exceptions.

A local case
There is already a judgment against the plagiarism of a climbing guide. Although it is not decided because it is in appeal, the mistake has fallen down on the side of the informer, Ernesto López, who appears in accordance with her(dunno about this bit) although it is supported to the expectation of the final resolution. With reference to Ernesto, I consider it to be pertinent to explain the details, the mistake condemns that they copied the information that he had made public in two guides and in an article of Difference. He considers insufficiently, the fact that they should use photos to mark the routes instead of Ernesto's sketches. And in this point, it is forced to mention that Ernesto López is the equiper of the majority of 1.700 routes with his respective grades and principal connoisseur of the names and trips to Montanejos.

The benefits that a guide obtains, after an honest days work, are the result of an enormous effort of compilation, papers, to mark routes, to confirm grades, to look for names between a number of more or less big equiper... The author, often the equiper of the area or at least with certain prestige between the group, is receivs credibilty even between the equiper that go to see his work correctly done/correct grades etc. Because they already knew that for equipping they are not going to gain anything. Another not-written judgment is the one that there establishes every consumer of the guides, that the climber, visitor or local, which look and buys climbing information in the shape of the work. In his hands there is to choose to contribute, or not, to the " just commerce " of the local climbing guide.

In reply to Alan James - UKC: Worth getting someone a bit hotter to look at it.

In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:

I get the general idea of what it is saying from that. Although difficulty I (he who typing) now discover in writing own periscandilonian reply.

In reply to andi turner:

Lovely! I know the feeling well...

Mick

In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:

I've been wishing to form a "Nourished group of equipers/bolters of pirenaicas and prepirenaicas areas" for quite some time. Who wants to join?

In reply to Hugh Cottam:

I am particularly well-nourished, but would like my perineum left just as it is, thanks.

In reply to Martin76:

No interest in having it equipped or bolted then? Go on, live a little. It's opened an entire new world for me.

In reply to Hugh Cottam:

I don't know everything you know (in spite of what you hear).

In reply to Hugh Cottam:

Especially after that last factor 2 fall.

In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:

what this doesn't mention is:

- the generally crap quality of most euro topos
- the contribution to local economies of visiting climbers who might not otherwise be there were it not for a well thought out guide book.

In reply to Alan James - UKC: It's a bit clunky, but it gets the gist -

Fair trade for climbing guides

A sizeable group of route equippers in the Pyrenees and pre-Pyrenees raise an alarm call against what they describe as "unscrupulous piracy", "sheer plagiarism of published guides".

According to some equippers of routes, certain foreign guide book authors are coming to their areas and for the sake of a fleece jacket are ignoring the ethic which normally constrains them, resulting in a situation like the trade in diamonds. They (the route equippers) work like black men so that others can take a share in the fruit of their labours not only in their own countries but also in all of the areas where the channels of distribution are controlled, without any benefit for the area or its inhabitants. For the climbers from those parts of Europe which are still cold and rainy in these days of climate change Spain continues to be an area of sun which is not too hot for most of the year, and enjoys good weather. A wonderful place to climb where their sin is to do business (even if very limited) not together with but in competition with other people.

A large group of route equippers from the Pyrenees and pre-Pyrenees have just raised a new alarm call in our letters page. They describe as "unscrupulous piracy" and "sheer plagiarism of published guides" the actions of some German climbers who have published a guide book to their own areas (understand the term "their own areas" not in terms of ownership but as those areas where they have carried out a significant amount of climbing development).

There are other cases in which plagiarism or pure parasitism have occurred in conjunction with field work. A conspicuous example is that of the well known Rockfax. Apart from the question of research (a word which sometimes implies plagiarism of others and sometimes does not), their works are in part their own and contain errors which they have not copied from others, but also contain information intended to conceal the identity of a climber - a foreign climber - whom they know in person. Without any more, perhaps with no, concern to respect the ethical symbiotic relationship between the person who equips the route and the person who publicises it when they are not the same person, they have sometimes ended up publishing better guidebooks than the locals. For two reasons: they can be more comprehensive by ignoring restrictions imposed on them for reasons of secrecy, and also they can take a more homogenous approach to regrading the routes than that of repeating what they have been told by others.

Acting to change this unjust situation is much more difficult than accepting it with resignation. Perhaps they have attempted to pass off guides produced in this country in a foreign market. Meanwhile, if we are to go beyond complaining, to denounce them in the media both here and in the UK for the sake of an unwritten principle would be a difficult and very expensive form of justice to obtain. The boundary that separates the immoral from the illegal is so tenuous that it is rare for a person who has equipped his local routes and written a guide to them to go on to defend his intellectual property rights and those of the person who equipped the routes. However, there have been exceptions.

A local case

There has been one judgement against the plagiarism of a climbing guide. Although it is not finally decided since it has gone to appeal, the judgement came down in favour of the accuser, Ernesto Lopez, who declared himself to be in agreement with it and is maintaining his position while waiting for the final judgement. Regardless of which, Ernesto explained the details which he thought relevant of the judgement against whoever had copied the information which he had published in two guides and an article in Desnivel. It was not considered sufficient defence that they had used photographs to describe the routes in place of Ernesto's sketches. Another point is that they should have mentioned that Ernesto equipped and graded the majority of the 1700 pitches and is the foremost expert on the routes of Montenejos and their descriptions.

The profits from a guide produced by honest work are the result of an enormous effort involving information gathering, writing, marking routes, grade confirmation, and searching out of route names from a number of first ascensionists both well known and less well known. The author, even if he has equipped few routes in the area or at least is known to the locals, is then well received by the activists who are going to see their routes correctly described. Because they know that by equipping a route they are not going to earn anything. No other judgement has been passed than that the decision falls upon the user of the guides, the climber, whether visitor or local, who seeks information in the form of diagrams.It is in your hands to decide whether to contribute, or not, to "fair trade" in the area of guidebooks.

In reply to Morgan Woods: I can't remember anyone in the UK getting upset when a French guide to Ben Nevis was published - most UK comments were pretty complimentary from what I remember.

In reply to John2:

"They (the route equippers) work like black men"

As translated by Carol Thatcher.

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

This sounds very interesting which crags/areas is the guide planning to cover?

I have looked at climbing at in Normandy, the bits I have found on the internet say to get the topos from the local café or tabac – would be nice to be able to suss the area out a bit before you go.

In reply to John2:

Thanks John for doing that.

I should point out that the originator of that editorial (although I think it has been re-written slightly) is Luis Alfonso who runs this local guidebook publishing company - http://www.onaclimb.com/guies/index.htm

I am certain Luis is a very active local climber who has done a great deal for the development of the area. He also makes very good guidebooks to Catalyuna that cover the area in way more detail than the Rockfax Costa Daurada guide.

However, in the context of this debate, I feel that readers should be aware that the person behind it is a commercial guidebook producer.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Hi,

In addition to this thread and the stuff on 8a.nu, there’s a discussion on this topic over on camptocamp.org, which is a bit like a French version of UKC:

http://www.camptocamp.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=144276&p=1

I can help with translating the French if that would be useful, although I'm sure lots of people on here have better French than me.

Cheers,

In reply to Doug:

No, but quite a few in the UK have been upset when Rockfax have produced certain new guides.

In reply to Doug:

yes i in fact own it!

quite well put together.

In reply to Swig:

Yes, I noticed that, but my Spanish is not that colloquial that I can tell whether that is politically incorrect or otherwise!

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

The central gist of the argument seems to be that copyright is extended to the equipping of routes. Previously there has been litigation on near direct copying of written descriptions (CC vs West Col I believe) hence textual selective guides using subtly different descriptions from the definitive guides.

I can (sort of) see why some attribution of the equipping of routes, as opposed to the first ascensionist, may be desirable, but copyright? Does that mean I can copyright a slight variation on a footpath that I took last week?

ALC

In reply to GDes:


and some are upset when any guides are published.....

See the Ascent debate in the 1970's and it has rolled on ever since.

In reply to John2:

And there was me thinking that the reason Rockfax guides are often better than the local guides was through colour topos and route descriptions rather than cartoons with a line across the top and bottom to represent the cliff and upward lines to represent routes. Ceuse guidebook anyone?

I'm not sure how secrecy forbids one from taking photos - anyone got any clues? Lets face it, even black and white photos would at least bring the guides forward to midway through the previous century

AJM

AJM

In reply to Nj: Well it's not just france!

I'm writing this as a personal view but you should note that I am the chairman of the SWMC.

This year the SWMC has put in £1200 into re-equiping sports crags in south wales. The funding for this comes from Guidebook Sales.

RockFax are apparently going to publish a new guide to sports crags in the area. I doubt that a significant proportion of the profits will go back into the area.

Personally I think that some discussion and agreement with the locals might be in order prior to embarking on commercial projects.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


I think there was a 'pirate' guide to Borrowdale in the 1960s. These pirates - they get everywhere!

Mick

In reply to chris wyatt:

The discussion on the french forum that there hadn't been word of any discussion with the locals.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Also, Lyme Crimes and subsequent guides from Pete Liversausage and Streeky Bacon - both looked like pirates, Streaky still does.

I think the legal argument here is irrelevant and not in the best interests of anyone (the writer seems to acknowledge it as "...for the sake of an unwritten principle would be a difficult and very expensive form of justice to obtain.")

I personally think that, if you divorce yourself from some of the unfortunately chosen language, then one of the main points of the article is that guides written by knowledgeable locals have the potential to contain good accurate information. That is usually true (although sometimes it is let down by bad presentation). However it is certainly an asset to any guidebook to have access to good local information, which is why we always would prefer to work with knowledgeable locals. Can't really argue with that.

I think though that once you go down the road of tying rights to information to the people who developed an area, it is a very dubious path to go down. It doesn't take long to think up some bad situations that could develop from such a scenario. For example, guidebooks containing routes except those by a certain person who didn't allow them to be published in the same book so that they could produce their own book, for example. Two books to the same crag, each with half the routes. Or no books at all because the person with the 'right's didn't get their act together.

Far better in all cases is the open market route which Luis is in a great position to exploit himself. He has the co-operation of the local climbers, he has the guidebook business, he has the skills and complete control over the local distribution.

I see no problems here at all. If the German topo is crap, then it won't be bought, if it is good then it will bring more visitors to the area to increase local trade and guidebook sales.

Alan

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Really? I don't remember that many folk complaining when the NMC released the new Northumberland guide by Steve Crowe...

In reply to Nj:
French guides are typified by wasted space, useless layout, irritating designs and parochial coverage. German writers have been producing topo guides to French crags since the 80's at least, and doing a better job. Go get 'em, Alan.

In reply to chris wyatt:

Hi Chris

We are in discussion with several locals, in fact they are writing the guide. Don't make assumptions please about how Rockfax will deal with the issue of bolt funding. We have contributed to many other bolt funds and would certainly consider doing so in South Wales, however not before the guidebook is published.

Alan

In reply to Mick Ward:

By Paul Ross, the only person entitled to produce one.

In reply to GDes:

Yes really Ged. The actual publication of guidebooks is a bone of contention to some climbers.

The argument is that they increase traffic to crags and subsequent erosion of paths and routes; and that with no guidebook you will be closer to having a real adventure.

These climbers believe that information about crags and routes should be spread by word of mouth only.

In reply to Al Evans:

Don't forget Paul Nunn's select guidebook to the Peak. Geoff Birtles' guidebook to North Wales Limestone.

Lots of 'pirate' guidebooks.

In fact in the UK we have a great tradition of 'pirate' guidebooks.

In reply to John2:

So Rockfax make better guidebooks than the locals seems to be the main complaint? Huh? Is this rant purely jealousy.

Frankly, unless I am in an area for other reasons I will often head somewhere with an english language guidebook as it makes planning, working logisics out, approaches etc simpler. This means that I am going to their area, spending money there, and often buying the local guide too (for example the best crag I went to in Sardinia last year is only in the local guide). I then come home and rave about it. Surely they should be pleased that we like their routes.

And on the note of resistance to Rockfax etc, I think it they have been an enormous benefit for all of us. The new fantastic BMC peak district guides wouldn't have happened without rockfax. And no offence to Chris Wyatt, but if Rockfax do produce a South Wales sport guide, it may spur them on to produce a better guide too. The current guide is useful but could be a whole lot better. And as it contains the SWMC book Gower, I doubt that it will make much of a reduction in sales in competition with Rockfax. In fact, if it draws people to the area it may increase sales as people want to explore further and also encourage bolt fund donations as more people discover the area.

In reply to Nj:

When I was pointed in the direction of the 8a nu argument last night I nearly pissed myself.

I live 15 minutes away from St Leger du Ventoux - a world class venue.
This is an example of the best current top available to the best crag in this part of the world.I've ben going to St Leger for 6 years and still don't know what routes are what.
http://www.veloventoux.com/pictures/stleger.jpg

What did Geroge Bush say? "The trouble with the French is - they don't have a word for Entrepreneur!"

The Ent

In reply to Enty:


Yep, its dreadful but it makes more sense than the Jingo Wobbly guide!

In reply to Enty:

That is a classic isn't it. And for George Bush, didn't he actually fail to pronounce the word entrepreneur, aswell?

In reply to Tyler:

Ha ha - absolutely correct. My copy is currently propping up a broken wardrobe!

The Ent

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Yes but these people are such a minority (or NIMBYs that hold this view only for thier local crag) that they can be dismissed from any sensible debate.

In reply to jon:

Actually if you Snope it it's an urban myth - he didn't really say it, but you get my point.

The Ent

In reply to Enty:


Which particular combination of icons show you how to do that?

In reply to Tyler:

Pmsl!

The Ent

In reply to Monk:
A fairly good point Monk... but how do you improve your foreign languages skills in this context

I read the camptocamp.org thread and they're slating Rockfax along the same lines as what Desnivel has done.

Now, it's not the first time that you Brits don't see eye to eye with continentals... where are we en route to the Euro!

I wouldn't worry too much, a French or Spaniard climber is unlikely to buy a guide written in English for the very same reason that Monk explained above.

I prefer buying local guide because I am a language geek and give my money to locals so that they can have funds to develop further their crags. I then have better climbing, unless there are shite.
Now, that's my opinion, and I have nothing against people who buy rockfax guides, or rockfax itself.

I do not own Godefroy Perroux guide 'cause I prefer SMCs ones. I have the rockfax guides for gritstone because I prefer those.

In reply to Monk

Monk. I do understand what you say here and I don't think the SWMC are going to be anti rockfax for the sake of it. I just think that the climbing community should understand the issues here :

Climbers interest :
1) To get good information on crags.
2) To have a nice day ticking roputes in attractive format
3) If sport climbing to have well equipped crags
4) To maintain a record of climbing in the country

Local Club's interest :
1-4 as above
5) To make a bit of money - not as profit but to finance operations

Commercial organisation's interest
1) To make money
2) To promote climbing as a sport in guidebook areas therefore to increase sales - therefore 1-3 above as a secondary goal.
(am I being too cynical?)

Bearing this in mind I would suggest that the climbing community as a whole

a) puts pressure on commercial organisations to emphasise 1-3 more
b) Supports local clubs in supporting their sport. This includes getting involved with publications

Alan : It would be interesting if you would make public exactly how much you spend on BMC, bolt funds and supporting climbing generally. I would also like to know what you intend to contribute to the South Wales bolt fund . You are being very vague at the moment.

cheers

Chris

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Don't forget the first guide to the Ormes by Rowland Edwards back in the 70's, and the first guide ever to have photo topo's I believe, and the first guide to ever have a voluntary bird ban. Pirate guides can change people's perception of what a guide can look like.

In reply to Monk: "....their works are in part their own and contain errors which they have not copied from others, ...."

It's when works contain errors that are copied from others that you have to worry!

In reply to M. Edwards:

Really ; o )

In reply to chris wyatt:

Not sure I agree.

1&2 are best achieved (in the context of a guidebook at least) by owning the best guidebook available.
3 can be achieved by having a bolt fund which people contribute to, including companies which benefit from the climbing (a sop to Alan James who always complains when we single out guidebook publishers).
4 - thats up to the climbers isn't it, some don't give a monkeys. Given two otherwise equal guides, the one with the better history section will or won't put the other out of business depending on how important the users really find this.

Personally, I think the climbers best option is to buy the guidebook that suits them best (ticking 1, 2 & 4) and contribute to a bolt fund to deal with 3.

I'm not sure why the local club deserves any more special treatment just because they are local? Proportionally, they already see the most benefit from there being good guidebooks and well bolted routes in their area anyway? And lets face it, good guidebooks driving higher standards in future can only be a good thing for some areas of the country.........

AJM

In reply to chris wyatt:

Chris

This guidebook isn't even on my to do list at the moment so I am not about to rush into any decisions about it. It is being written by local activists Gary Gibson, Goi Ashmore and Roy Thomas who are about as competent and credible as you can get in the SW 'local' department, so I have no concerns there.

I have already been in touch with Myles Jordan so I suggest you speak to him, although all I said was that we haven't decided anything yet. By all means have concerns but airing them publicly before we have even decided what and when we are going to publish is extremely premature. Try sending an email next time.

For legal reasons I make donations from my own personal money instead of Rockfax. I have no idea how much I have given over the years but it is well into four figures, and double that if you add in Access Funds. I have also hosted great initiatives like Ben Stokes on Portland which realised hundreds of pounds for the Dorset Bolt Fund. I don't make a song and dance about it though since I think that all climbers should do their bit. For those who make their living in the outdoors, they should do even more.

Alan

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: oh come on, that's an awful defence. Those peopl could probably be counted on one hand! It's where these "pirate guides" are going against the opinions of the vast majority of the local climbers in that area. I'm sure in some places everyone has been happy to see a rockfax guide (e.g. dorset? not sure). And in some places local clubs havent perhaps kept up and produced the goods, so there was a need for an alternative. But when books are produced that have no real niche, and will DECREASE sales of local books (e.g. northumberland), or make cash out of info that was available free of charge, that's likely to annoy folk. I'd imagine.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Rock Fax is obviously main stream now, can't call them pirate anymore.

In reply to Nj:

When Alan James produced his Pembroke guide in 1995, he was threatened with legal action by the CC. Alan asked me, amongst lots of others, my take on it as author of the long out of print previous guide (1985). I said I thought his guide was superb and I didn't think the CC would have a leg to stand on, partly as it was a non definitive guide and partly as I couldn't see how they could possibly justify having a monopoly, and that it would not upset the CC's sales of their long awaited guide. As far as I know it hasn't as the CC 1995 guide sold out, and now in 2009 are still in the process producing a replacement.

I ploughed my way through the camptocamp thread and as far as I can see they are 50 / 50 for or against, but the against seem fairly extreme...

There's been mention of plagiarism. It is reasonably well known that Piola took the Remys to court for plagiarism. They blatantly traced 54 of Piola's topos and put them in their own guide. I've seen all the drawings involved and it IS blatant, no question. He lost the case, which everyone thought was watertight, as the judge couldn't find evidence of plagiarism, and was ordered to pay costs and a certain (large) sum to the Remys. He paid the legal costs but threatened to appeal if the Remys went ahead and demanded the monies they'd been awarded. They dropped it.

If a Swiss court throws out a case as apparently clear as that, it would seem that Rockfax hasn't got a problem.

In reply to chris wyatt:


It might be interesting but I'm not sure what business it is of yours! Exactly how much do you spend on BMC, bolt funds and supporting climbing generally. How much do you spend on charity, or clothes or food, it'd be interesting to know!

In reply to GDes:

I don't recall anyone attacking me.

I recently bought a lonely planet guide to Paris. It makes me mad. Here they are blatently describing everything about the city which the French themselves built with no regard to the local inhabitants, the sights, how to get there, they even have quotes from local literature. They tell you everything about the place, you'd never need to read a local guidebook. This is an utterly shocking situation - such an abuse of the hard work of centuries of French builders, architects, city planners. I think they should be banned. In the future visitors should be made to buy French produced guide books, ones made by publishing companies which pay rates in the city of paris.
bloody parasites
Long live the revolution!

In reply to GDes:

No evidence of that but we have been there plenty of times before.

I would have thought that the Rockfax Northern England guidebook worked very well together with the new Northumberland Bouldering guide to compliment and benefit from each other nicely.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

It's an interesting debate this, and one on which I've never really known where to stand. On the one hand I appreciate the argument that local developers might hope to get some proceeds from guidebook sales to help fund the development of cliffs, and it is in all our interests for this to continue to be the case. I've never really been convinced by the argument that 'pirate guides' increase sales of the local guide; I've almost never seen a brit with a copy of the local Siurana or Chorro guidebooks. Probably Toni gets a considerable amount of indirect money from all the Siurana visitors who stay at his campsite and who may otherwise not have visited, but what about developers who don't own campsites?

On the other hand, there is clearly a vacuum created for pirate guides to fill. Local topos are often sketchy in detail, and only actually available with some serious detective work which will put off all but the keenest. And Rockfax do actually excel in doing investigative work, producing clear access maps and good photo topos which are head and shoulders above the quality of the best local guides. For this reason I am a regular purchaser of Rockfax guides. I also bought the german book which is being complained about, because it was the only guide in print to several of the crags, despite being a blatant rip-off of the local topos that were available if you knew the right people (or had first-class google and foreign language skills).

On the thread above Alan states that he would prefer to work with local developers wherever possible. To my mind, this presents the best way forward. A business model in which the local bolt fund gets a share of each guidebook sale would keep the local developers happy, and the 'pirate' guidebook writer gets access to the best available local information, which would prevent re-occurrences of the newest Mallorca Rockfax, where some of the new crag pages consisted of a photo topo laced with question marks. Unfortunately, even this route is more complex than it first appears: some areas don't have formalised bolt funds and development is the result of a disparate group of individuals. Who get's the money in that case?

As you can see, the whole thing is a bit of a mess. Perhaps the true solution is the capitalist one: if local developers provided first-class, accurate and easily available guides and information to their crags, there would be no place for pirate guides, and nothing for them to complain about?

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Alan, I think we have to remember, if it wasn't for Rock Fax taking on our trad route here on the Costa Blanca, I believe these routes would have vanished into obscurity. It was only because of Rock Fax that the locals and those Spanish from further afield knew what we were up to in the Finestrat area for the last 20 odd years. Thanks Rock Fax for this alone.

Mark

In reply to M. Edwards:

The 1947(?) Kinder guide has a superb photo-topo of Great Buttress at Kinder Downfall , it has been bettered since. Fingers crossed the we can at least match it in the new WG!

Chris

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

It is more complex than this though. An area with a good international guidebook receives a big boost from visitor numbers from all over Europe - it gets articles, it gets media coverage, it generally gets promoted because users go there. Many of them will have the international guide, but the overall increase in visitor numbers from all over will boost local guide sales, and local trade obviously.


Also, a levy of guidebooks would never work because you would need to co-operation of the shops and distributors and that would be a nightmare to co-ordinate. Without their co-operation a £1 on a guidebook would only realise pence by the time it had got to the publisher. Also, as I always say, there are many prople and businesses who benefit from the presence of bolts and good crag access. Targetting guidebooks for this is not sensible or reasonable.


No, but then again, producing guidebooks is really hard work and to expect local climbers to have the skills and the time isn't realistic. The best solution is something like the Lofoten model where we have true local and guidebook publisher co-operation.

Alan

In reply to Nj: Personally I'm not sure if the whole concept of a guide book is a little dated. If you want up to date, widely available information at low cost: use a wiki. Here's an example :


http://www.southwalesmountaineering.org.uk/g_book/index.php/South_Wales_Mou...

It's early days yet but the idea is that this becomes the next self generating guidebook. We're going to explore whether it is possible to gain any revenue from this by eliciting donations in return for printing off pages.

Don't want to hijack this thread so I think I'll start another one!

In reply to midgets of the world unite:
>

You've hit the nail on the head there.
Here's that link again to the St Leger Topo. http://www.veloventoux.com/pictures/stleger.jpg
This is one of the best crags in the world and I have to go there with a photocopied bit of paper which took me hours to find on t'internet.
With regards to the other local guidebooks, I have made a point of buying what is available because I know it funds the local activists. However, I seldom take the books to the crags with me because many of them are worse than useless.

The Ent

In reply to Enty:

So, what is wrong with that, unless you would prefer not to have an adventure finding the right line to start with?

You must remember, they use their kids to draw the 'topo's' to add realism to the wavy way a climb goes.

In reply to Alan James - UKC: I'm referring to the Northmberland routes guide, which came out before the Rockfax north of england. Not sure how North of England compliments the Northumberland routes guide?

In reply to Enty:
I found this on the internet in 2 mins.

http://5sup.com/st_leger/topo_st_leger.pdf

In reply to Alan James - UKC:


I do see what you're saying here, but the point is that Brits heading out to these venues don't buy the local guides, the money from which goes directly into the pockets of the developers. Gear manufacturers, hoteliers and local store owners are not selling a product which competes directly with what is often the only revenue stream for the local developer, so perhaps it is reasonable to target guidebooks after all? The money from 'lost' guidebook sales may or may not be offset by money which arrives indirectly but how are we ever to know for sure?


I agree with that 100%, but how do you expect to receive true local co-operation when the local is funding his activities by selling a rival product, and believes he/she has nothing to gain from co-operating? It seems to me in these cases that a commitment to contribute to their pockets would keep everyone happy.

Like I said, I don't know entirely where I stand on this issue. I guess actions speak louder than words, and as I said I almost always buy the Rockfax guides. However, I rarely get them out in local bars for fear of receiving an ear-bashing. Toni Arbones once tried to throw a British climber out of his Siurana bar because his picture was in the Costa Daurada guide and Toni assumed (wrongly) that this climber had come out to 'steal' the updated topos!

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

I find your logic compelling, but at present the argument that a Rockfax guide brings benefits to the local area etc (rather than detracting from it) would seem to be largely a matter of faith. Is there any actual evidence to back up the argument? I appreciate that this is never going to be proof, but some form of evidence such as crag and route development, campsite and accommodation figures or local business anecdotal evidence might help prevent this somewhat circular argument about commercial guidebooks.

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

From the Posting Guidelines...

"User Profiles

1. Anonymous or unregistered - People like to know who they are talking to and it is polite to at least attach the same name to all your posts, even if you don't wish to register. Posts started anonymously will be removed unless it was done accidentally by a first time visitor. Anonymous replies will also be frequently removed and always on request of other users."

Seems a strange position then to allow anonymous posting in the first place!! Why not save the moderator a ton of hassle of having to find and remove anonymous posts in the first place?

In reply to M. Edwards:

and also important to have the detailed FA info contained therein....some of them seem like very gnarly ascents for the time.

In reply to Hugh Cottam:

Surely you just have to look at Rjukan. Nobody in this country had heard about it before the guide was published now everyone and his aunt is going there.

In reply to Monk:

To be honest Monk, you really don't have to convince me, I'm already persuaded. My point was that something in the way of more substantial evidence might help to allay the fears of the non-believers.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Does it? I doubt if that is the case in most areas.

In Luis Alfonso's last paragraph he says "The profits from a guide produced by honest work are the result of an enormous effort involving information gathering, writing, marking routes, grade confirmation, and searching out of route names from a number of first ascensionists both well known and less well known. The author, even if he has equipped few routes in the area or at least is known to the locals, is then well received by the activists who are going to see their routes correctly described. Because they know that by equipping a route they are not going to earn anything."

Money from guidebooks goes to the retail outlet, the distributor (if there is one), the printer and the publisher gets the rest to pay themselves and the author(s) with. If the publisher and author(s) is a major developer then they will obviously do okay out of it, but I suspect that they will see this as reward for their efforts in writing the book, rather than the bolting.


I am talking about the Lofoten situation where there is one guidebook, and a local author.


Alan

In reply to panyan:

Cheers,

It's better than the one I have but it's very old. Even so I had a quick look at the topo for the North Face. There's an area near a route called Billie de Clown - all the grades are wrong for about 6 routes going rightwards.

The problem is that new routes have been added and not all routes have names at the bottom so it's very very easy to get on the wrong route.
For example - If the topo shows 7 routes numbered and named from 31 to 37 but there are 9 lines of bolts on that section of rock with no names where do you start?

Enty

In reply to panyan:

I've got that one and frankly it's not much good either.

In reply to Hugh Cottam:

Hi Hugh

It is difficult (and time-consuming and expensive) to get any hard evidence about boost to local trade, but anecdotal evidence from places like Rjukan is overwhelming.

Also, we don't have over 40 businesses advertising their accommodation on the Rockfax site on the off chance that someone might be interested.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Maybe you have a point there, and it is much less about money than I have assumed. Perhaps it is just the feeling of being unconsulted and perhaps unrecognised that irks local developers when foreigners like Rockfax publish a guide to their area?

The Lofoten guide does seem to be an unparalleled success, which in some respects is surprising, as I was under the impression that Norway seemed to be have a pervasive ethic of not publishing route information. Perhaps this shows that the Lofoten model is the ideal scenario that will keep guidebook writers, local climbers and the guide-buying public happy?

In reply to slacky:

We want to allow people to post without registering to be more welcoming to first time users, or occasional visitors. We leave posts from people who obviously aren't anon, but just haven't got round the registration system. We don't get many and it is easy to moderate.

Alan

In reply to Monk:

Different story, surely?

Some Rockfaxes have come in where the area is little known or the old guidebooks are outdated - Clwyd, N Wales Limestone, Rjukan etc. Some of them have been guides to fairly well known areas like Costa Blanca and Costa Duarada and will be to the well known areas like (insert whatever's in the France guide here - Buoux, Ceuse...?).

The effect will be very different between the two I'd argue in that whilst one will increase traffic lots, the other will do to a lesser extent (obviously a shiny new British guide which, perhaps most importantly, people can check out in popular shops before buying flights will help drive UK visitors at least) since the areas are already well known, and more of the sales come from those who would have gone anyway but buy the Rockfax guide now rather than the local one when they arrive (which after all is what has got them so worked up)

This is an interesting question actually - if the local guides to places were more widely available in the UK (so that you could wander in and have a look in a decent climbing shop) what would happen? How much of the benefits of Rockfax guides and the like is down to wide availability making it easier for us to see what sort of things are on offer before we book our flights? Obviously the guides themselves are generally better, but on the other hand the fact I can take a look without having to be there already certainly helps.....

AJM

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

That's almost certainly true. The problem is that, when your guidebook covers an area the size of the Costa Blanca, there is now way you can consult with all the different groups of local climbers. The same will be true for the two France guides that cover vast areas. At present, I can't see a solution to this apart from my open invite for them to get in touch with me - not ideal I admit.


It has been a pleasure to work on with some great people. I don't see it being a 'model' though that can be rolled out to other areas - no real bolting or access issues, small area, single small tight band of harmonious locals.

Alan

In reply to AJM:

Many years ago the ACG produced guides for climbing in the alps as most people did not speak more than one language so could not translate the guides there were. if that is still the case then given the choice between a English language and local language guides I will go for the English one. We had difficulty with the Vallot guides due to not having good French leading to wasting hours on some routes.

In reply to Morgan Woods:

I think the history of an area like the Costa Blanca would have been lost, and that would have been a great shame. So I agree the first ascents list is also very important, especially for trad routes were there is a frenzy for bolting everything in sight... even Mods! A guide helps protect these routes, because trad routes by their very nature leave nothing behind as proof of ascent. This is on reason we leave instu. tat on some routes not in the guide yet.

Just by way of a totally unscientific but rather convincing test:

Try searching for 'Frankenjura' on UKC threads - http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/search.php?forum=0&dates=1&na...

Now try searching for 'Rjukan' -
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/search.php?forum=0&dates=1&na...

I am not sure what this means apart from the fact that Rjukan is higher on the radar of UKC Users than a huge world-class area like the Frankenjura. I suspect that might not be the case if Rockfax produced a Frankenjura guide.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC:
Surely this proves that ice climbers are sad people who interminably post about whether the ice is in or not whereas potential Frankenjura climbers have wrecked their fingers in the gym and can´t type anything!
Jim

In reply to chris wyatt: Chris, I'd just like to point out that I have myself put more money into the re-equipping of South Wales sports routes than your £1200 amounts to: roughly about £3000. That is not for my own new routes but equipping costs directly and that does not include petrol money etc. And those funds come directly out of my bank account, subsidised by a few measly toposin the past and not a guidebook fund.

Similarly, Roy Thomas has done much the same and there have been other contributions of slightly lesser but no less worthy amounts from Eugene Jones, Andy Meek, Goi Ashmore, Andy Sharp and Martin Richards.

It is these people who you should thank for keeping the sports crags of South Wales alive and not the SWMC who are now starting to contribute, an issue that I thoroughly welcome.

Any guide that is developed by such people should be welcomed as bringing the sports climbs of this area into the 21st Century.

In reply to Alan James - UKC:
Whilst not an exact translation of the Desnivel editorial, the following is a letter from Catalan guidebook writer, Luis Alfonso, containing its main points. The letter was sent to all the major European climbing websites and magazines. Some published, some didn't.

Incidentally, it was earlier pointed out that Luis Alfonso is himself a guidebook producer (suggesting competitive motivation?), but failing to mention that 'Luichy' contributes massively to local bolt funds (a sizeable proportion of every guide), as well as being one of the most fanatical developers (equippers) himself.

Anyway, here's the letter:


"These days it seems that anyone can produce a climbing guidebook, freely and without any kind of permission or consent. If sufficient 'research' material, in the form of previous guidebooks, internet information etc. exists, then the only limiting factors on the quality of the guidebook will be the skill and resources of the editorial team.
However, let's consider two ethical points: -the amount of work that went into producing the previous (local) guidebook may have been enormous — months of field work, hours of telephone conversations and marathon stints in front of the computer monitor. - guidebooks produced in collaboration with, or directly by, local climbers provide vital sources of funding for equipping new climbs, as well as re-equipping older routes.
Lamentably, outside interests have realized the potential for profit in the production of selective guidebooks to Spain, aimed mainly at the foreign visitor. Until recently, these 'pirate' guides where mostly the work of the British company 'Rockfax' (Mallorca, El Chorro, Costa Blanca, Barcelona, Montgrony, Costa Daurada………..) but recently two German climbers have published a guidebook 'Pyrenees Rock' covering many areas on both on the French and Spanish sides of the border. This guide reproduces comprehensive (not selective) topos for some of the best-known climbing centres in the area. Evidently, no contact was sought, or made, with local climbers or equippers in any of the zones included.
The legal situation is unclear, though common sense should make it obvious that the reproduction of drawings (topos) and use of information, without the authors consent, is plagiarism, pure and simple. Indeed, in a recent case in Valencia concerning two different guidebooks to the area of Montanejos, a precedent may have been set when a judge ruled that the later guide was in breach of copyright for using names of routes and other information, which had previously appeared in the older publication.
It would be nice if the bolts protecting the many thousands of superb sport climbs in Spain appeared overnight — sprouting from the rock like plants after periods of heavy rain — but unfortunately they don't. Notwithstanding the great physical effort involved in placing each and every bolt, the financial costs to individual activists can be considerable, and locally produced guidebooks are often the only way to help fund the process. Buying local guides is a sure way to invest in the future development and expansion of these zones. On the contrary, buying foreign pirate guides benefits no one but the authors.
The climbers, equippers and local guidebook writers of the areas included in Pyrenees Rock would like to protest in the strongest terms. The manner in which this book was prepared is unscrupulous and deeply offensive to us. Let's hope it is the last of its kind."

In reply to Gary Gibson: Gary I think most of us down here do genuinely appreciate the efforts that have gone into turning the area into an interesting place for sports climbers and I do appreciate that a lot of this has been at your personal expense.

In fact I think you've just mentioned the tip of the iceberg in terms of local and not so local activists who have contributed.

All I was trying to say was that the funds the SWMC has to offer are related to guidebook sales and that this will not apparently be the case (in any significant way) with a rockfax guide.

I don't think there will be any problem at all if Rockfax come clean and tell us how they intend to plough back some of the profits they take from the area back into the area. As you know there is a non SWMC bolt fund already set up controlled by Roy Thomas and I would have thought that is the best vehicle by which it can be done.

In reply to Pete O'Donovan: Under Spanish law, the original guidebook writer has copyright on names of routes?!? That sounds nuts. There must be more to it than that?

In reply to TobyA:

A bit more than that;

>breach of copyright for using names of routes 'and other information', which had previously appeared in the older publication.

If names of routes were copyright then guidebooks could not be written without the permission of the people who named the routes. Anyone want to contact Botterill or Kirkus etc?

In reply to chris wyatt: Agreed. In fact I am providing Roy with the cheap outlet for gear at trade prices.

I absolutely agree that in all cases any guide that describes an area should support any bolt fund in monetary terms.

In reply to Alan James - UKC: I suspect that might not be the case if Rockfax produced a Frankenjura guide.

Some of the local guidebooks here, whilst not brilliant, are partly in English. Did Rjukan have a partially English guide before Rockfax?

With regards to Rockfax vs local guides - they're a great introduction to an area for me it was Eastern Grit, Pembroke and Siurana. Since then the definitive guides have been bought, I don't agree with anyone who says that Brits don't buy the local guide to Siurana!
EL guidebooks take away the pain of wandering through the wrong path and pissing off farmers and the like in Switz, Italy, France, Spain etc. It's great when you can speak the local language but you can't learn them all. The best guidebooks around around are the Slovenia and Climbing without frontiers guidebooks by Sidarta. The key information is in Slovenia, Italian, German and English - perfect.

In reply to Iggy_B:

It wasn't meant to be a serious comparison, it was just illustrating the point that once a RF guide appears, UK climbers at least, tend to ask more questions about it. If you examine the three pages of Rjukan threads in the link I posted above, you'll see that the vast majority are after late 2005 when the RF guide was published. You can repeat this for all RF guides, however this is to a certain extent inevitable due to the link between this site and Rockfax.

I just used the Frankenjura because it is a world class climbing area with a distinct searchable name. I think the fact that there is only half a page of threads on the topic does indicate that it isn't a major destination for UK climbers.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

That's probably because we're all vdiff punters with a rack of hexes, and fairly or not, Frenkenjura just brings to mind of tendon-popping monos under huge roofs!

Are 6a punters actually allowed there? Or does it lower the tone to much?

< I'm sure I'm now going to be told its a fab place to climb with kids, well served with loads of easy well bolted juggy slabs for 5 year olds to lead. If this is actually so, I might go next summer! >

In reply to TobyA: I'd recommend it. There's plenty for a punter like me in the Southern Frankenjura, including a multipitch route finishing in a castle where you can buy beer. The bolts tend to be a bit further apart than in many other areas, though.

In reply to TobyA: I climb predominantly in the 6's and have been to the Frankenjura 3 times. And I have only scratched the surface

In reply to Nj:
Have not read all the postings here so apologies...I sympathise with the locals views but have also used bad topos and guides in Europe-the 1st edition of the Desnivel Andalucian being very bad(I thought).A shame Mark Glaister was not able to do a more comprehensive English Rockfax treatment-covering crags like monte frio?Cogolos etc? but I guess this was lack of time or sensitive local issues involved?
French guides are well behind development but my perception is that all though they have world class climbing there are only a few destination areas like kalymnos,Siurana etc-that is areas with year around accomodation (ie truely climber centered).Rockfax have always been very clear and comprehensive about covering this and when going to France it seems really important.Only more recent French guides like the exellent? recent one like the one to St Leger du Ventoux seem to compete.
My only other thought is perhaps Rockfax could bolt there own crags in these areas as well as list the known areas that would be giving something back to the areas.
I look forward to the guides but also think there will be more secrecy in developing new areas probaly as well.

In reply to witnessthis:
If Rock Fax are going to hand out brackets and lower-offs... I'll have some!

In reply to witnessthis:

Do you know where I can get the new St Leger guide?

Enty

In reply to Enty:

order online from www.soescalade.fr

In reply to panyan:

Found it, didn't even know it was out - I might nip down to the shop although St Leger is seeping badly at the moment.

Enty

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Hey Graeme, You should know better that to go to some where as fantastic as the Frankenjura just to scratch your name in the rock, when you could have gone climbing!

Regards
Steve Crowe

In reply to witnessthis:

I appreciate you other comments, but I thought I'd respond to this one.

Rockfax is a guidebook writing company - we write good guidebooks, probably the best around. We are not a crag equipping company and would never want to get involved with such an activity. Our guidebooks give a huge boost to any local economy we cover. If local climbers want that boost to be more directed to the local bolting, then we are happy to work with them to realise this.

Alan

In reply to witnessthis:

You are correct Witnessthis, crags like Cogolos, Zuheros etc have either access or local considerations and are not included. I have visited the crags and they offer great if hard climbing but info is limited. I have put together my own topos if anyone wants to make a visit.

In David Munilla's Andalusia guidebook at the start of each chapter is a listing of crags included in the book with topos and directions. There is also another list on the following page which lists other climbing sites, these are not included for various reasons including those reasons listed above. I have talked to David Munilla in the past about the various issues with regard to publishing area information and it is a very mixed picture and not easy to please all camps.

Cheers

Mark

In reply to Alan James - UKC:


If Carlsberg wrote guidebooks would they look like Rockfaxes?

In reply to Enty:

So you live round the corner but did not know there was a new guidebook? This illustrates the point brought up by several on the 8a.nu topic about availability and publicity. If you fail to market a guidebook, don't be surprised/angry if someone else makes an alternative and finds better ways of selling it (right M. Troussier?).

In reply to Nic:

Odd really, as beers go standard Carlsberg is hardly outstanding (even if the 'quality control' is good). A classic case of marketing dominating over substance.

In reply to Temp_NL:

If you were French, and read the French press, then you would have known for a while about the new (and excellent) St Leger guidebook.

Carl

In reply to carl dawson: true, got it myself

In reply to Enty:

So there is a new St Leger guide out??

I take it this is a French one as the selective Rockfax isn't complete yet??

Any chance of a direct link on SOS escalade to order it.......my french isn't great.

Alan - when are you expecting the Rockfax covering St Leger to be out.....( we fly on the 10th April).

In reply to richard kirby:

Not by then, and we won't have all of St. Leger in.

Most likely before Christmas this year.

Alan

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Is that on a good day then? he he

In reply to M. Edwards:

I screwed up on a Fixe order last year and I'm only just coming to the end of the 250 lower offs I got by mistake. So there is no reason for you to put dangerous homemade single bolt lower offs and/or abseil stations in.

The Orange House Bolt Fund will supply anyone who can bolt appropriately and safely.

Todate the bolt fund has bought 4500 Euros of bolts and lower offs. Half of which came from my own pocket. A big thank you for all our guest who have donated.

There is a Spanish / British issue but I will start a new thread for that tonight.

Mark, if you're around perhaps we could discuss it over a pizza in the village tonight. Since this concerns you. My Spanish mobile is 619807515

Rich Mayfield

In reply to Rich Mayfield:

I will gladly meet up with you Richard, bring your second and choice of weapons. I suggest we take ten paces, turn and fire.

Mark

Ps Meet you tomorrow night, I already have plans for tonight.

In reply to M. Edwards:

LOL OK had a chino tonight call you tomoz.

Rich

New St Leger guide is available from the farm on the right 300m before the parking (big s bend). Costs about 25 euros and also covers Malaucene and Combe Obscure. It is comprehensive and, as local guide books go, not bad.

I am involved with the production of a local guidebook to one of the areas the proposed Rockfax guide will cover, as well as an equipper of routes in the area.

I spoke to Alan at Rockfax about their guide and was impressed by his understanding, generosity and real concern for the feelings of local climbers. Rockfax offered us free advertising within their book for our comprehensive local guide. In addition to this they were happy to mention other crags (not covered by their book) and the fact that you needed the local guide to visit these as well as where to buy it.

The majority of equipping locally is done by local guides / instructors and Rockfax said they would also do them a deal for advertising their services.

I know that our guide will not be sold in the UK and therefore anyone purchasing the Rockfax guide and heading here will be more likely to buy our local guide (than if they went somewhere else).

I also know that the influx of climbers will benefit the area as a whole and many of my friends businesses (as well as my own) will benefit.

As an equipper of routes I do this for various reasons (work / fun / to be creative) and it is my choice to do this. If it costs me money then so be it – if I get some back then even better.

It is hard to divert the money from overseas produced guide books directly to the local climbers putting in the bolts but, with some thought and cooperation the businesses benefiting could give some money back to the equippers (like the bolt funds in the UK). This however is not Rockfax’s job to organise, rather something that us locals can do amongst ourselves.

After talking to Rockfax and locals and seeing the real benefits such a guide will have to our area (apart from making it popular) I am fully behind the production of this guide.

I will be passing on a percentage of the benefit I receive from it, as well as urging other local businesses to do likewise and putting the money back into the upkeep of these climbing sites.

I’m sure Rockfax will be happy to include a paragraph explaining their situation and the work done by locals and suggest contributing to a local fund if one were to be set up.

I have also talked to the person researching and writing the guide and know that he has not just brought the local guides and copied them.

He has spent a huge amount of time visiting each of the crags, with many helpers, climbing the majority of the routes, taking clear photos and producing highly accurate topos.

The Rockfax guide, should it be published will not be a work of plagiarism, just a well researched and accurate selective guide to a large region of France.

In reply to ClimbFrance: Ollie, you should post this all on 8a.nu

In reply to ClimbFrance:

Magnificent post.

In reply to ClimbFrance: very well spoken sir