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I was flicking through a magazine at the climbing wall the other day and I came across an article on setting up belays, I think it was written by Libby Peter, although I'm not certain about that.
The article said that when joining belay anchors with a sling, a climber should never attach the sling directly to themselves, but should always use a length of rope between the belayer and the sling to provide some shock absorption.
I don't understand this. Even in a factor two fall the live rope provides some stretch to protect the belay anchors.
The only situation I can think of where the length of rope included in the belay set up would be beneficial would be a scenario where the sling is too long, and the belayer falls off the belay ledge while belaying.
Can anyone explain what I'm missing?
The article said that when joining belay anchors with a sling, a climber should never attach the sling directly to themselves, but should always use a length of rope between the belayer and the sling to provide some shock absorption.
I don't understand this. Even in a factor two fall the live rope provides some stretch to protect the belay anchors.
The only situation I can think of where the length of rope included in the belay set up would be beneficial would be a scenario where the sling is too long, and the belayer falls off the belay ledge while belaying.
Can anyone explain what I'm missing?
In reply to Oceanic:I'm wondering if it could provide some shock absorbtion for the anchor,if the person had rope between them and the belay and were belaying at a stance? Just off the top of my head.
Cheers
Tim
Cheers
Tim
In reply to Oceanic:
Imagine rapping down a route - you fix a sling to your harness as a makeshift cowstail and clip it directly into the belay point. For some reason you have to reach up above the belay for something - the rope has jammed up above the belay when you pulled it down, for instance... Supposing you moved up as far as the sling would allow, then lost your footing, you would experience a FF2 - on to a static sling.
Attaching yourself in this way when rapping down is perfectly fine as long as you realise this and the limitations - nobody climbs with a via ferrata shock absorber. When climbing up it is therefore safer to attach yourself using the rope directly into the anchors...
Imagine rapping down a route - you fix a sling to your harness as a makeshift cowstail and clip it directly into the belay point. For some reason you have to reach up above the belay for something - the rope has jammed up above the belay when you pulled it down, for instance... Supposing you moved up as far as the sling would allow, then lost your footing, you would experience a FF2 - on to a static sling.
Attaching yourself in this way when rapping down is perfectly fine as long as you realise this and the limitations - nobody climbs with a via ferrata shock absorber. When climbing up it is therefore safer to attach yourself using the rope directly into the anchors...
In reply to jon:
The difference between a short static sling and the same length of well used rope can't be much, compared to the give on the harness and human body.
>
> you would experience a FF2 - on to a static sling.
> you would experience a FF2 - on to a static sling.
The difference between a short static sling and the same length of well used rope can't be much, compared to the give on the harness and human body.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding on the subject is that slings (especially dynema?) have been known to fail, or are at least not as strong, under a dynamic load. i.e. shock loading a sling is not a great idea. Of course, dynamic rope is designed to absorb some of the impact in it's stretch, making it more suitable for use as a cows tail, when belaying e.t.c.
open to correction... always learning!.
open to correction... always learning!.
In reply to David Riley:
In the case of a very short length of well used rope, I imagine the knots would provide rather more shock absorption than the rope itself.
In the case of a very short length of well used rope, I imagine the knots would provide rather more shock absorption than the rope itself.
In reply to David Riley:
Cavers attach themselves to bolts with short lengths of well worn dynamic rope all the time. I don't know of any situations where a caver has snapped his length of dynamic rope (cows tail) - although it may just be that it has happened and I have never heard of it. I have heard of a couple of instances where climbers have clipped themselves to bolts with a just a sling and snapped the sling or krabs (these were situations similar to the one Jon describes above).
Cavers attach themselves to bolts with short lengths of well worn dynamic rope all the time. I don't know of any situations where a caver has snapped his length of dynamic rope (cows tail) - although it may just be that it has happened and I have never heard of it. I have heard of a couple of instances where climbers have clipped themselves to bolts with a just a sling and snapped the sling or krabs (these were situations similar to the one Jon describes above).
In reply to Tim Rowan:
It isn't that they're not as strong, its that the relative lack of shock absorption (briefly) makes the forces higher.
I think you may be thinking of reports of dyneema slings in particular (as opposed to nylon) failing when people have fallen directly onto them and they had knots in. It appears the knot weakens the sling to a greater degree than it does with nylon. This usually seems to be attributed to the lower melting point though I wonder if its also to do with dyneema slings being slimmer and more slippery than nylon, meaning that the knot tightens more, in turn forcing the sling through a tighter radius of curvature through the knot.
> Please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding on the subject is that slings (especially dynema?) have been known to fail, or are at least not as strong, under a dynamic load.
It isn't that they're not as strong, its that the relative lack of shock absorption (briefly) makes the forces higher.
I think you may be thinking of reports of dyneema slings in particular (as opposed to nylon) failing when people have fallen directly onto them and they had knots in. It appears the knot weakens the sling to a greater degree than it does with nylon. This usually seems to be attributed to the lower melting point though I wonder if its also to do with dyneema slings being slimmer and more slippery than nylon, meaning that the knot tightens more, in turn forcing the sling through a tighter radius of curvature through the knot.
In reply to jon: For exactly the reason you just described I take a length of 8mm dynamic cord with me to attach into belay points etc. I think it would be far more difficult for me to snap that than a static sling, or at least I hope so anyway!
In reply to Tim Rowan:
Yes that's right.
My question was related to the fact that if a climber fell off, the force would be absorbed by a dynamic climbing rope, before passing to the belayer and then through static slings to the anchor. So I don't see how a dynamic attachment between the belayer and the anchors would be beneficial if the climber falls.
Having read other peoples thoughts the only suggestion as to why the attachment between the belayer and the anchors should be dynamic would seem to be that the belayer might climb above the anchors and then fall.
Yes that's right.
My question was related to the fact that if a climber fell off, the force would be absorbed by a dynamic climbing rope, before passing to the belayer and then through static slings to the anchor. So I don't see how a dynamic attachment between the belayer and the anchors would be beneficial if the climber falls.
Having read other peoples thoughts the only suggestion as to why the attachment between the belayer and the anchors should be dynamic would seem to be that the belayer might climb above the anchors and then fall.
In reply to chrisprescott:
I just found this thread that I started a year ago, I don't even remember starting it...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=301917
I just found this thread that I started a year ago, I don't even remember starting it...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=301917
In reply to Oceanic:
That and possibly a high peak load going into the belay loop I guess,as others have said,I was thinking that if you think about how quickly somebody falls,and you get pulled up by them and lock thier fall off before even thinking about it quite often,there might be quite a high amount of force going into the belay loop in that short time. I'm no expert though,it might not be something worth thinking about.
Cheers
Tim
> (In reply to Tim Rowan)
> Having read other peoples thoughts the only suggestion as to why the attachment between the belayer and the anchors should be dynamic would seem to be that the belayer might climb above the anchors and then fall.
That and possibly a high peak load going into the belay loop I guess,as others have said,I was thinking that if you think about how quickly somebody falls,and you get pulled up by them and lock thier fall off before even thinking about it quite often,there might be quite a high amount of force going into the belay loop in that short time. I'm no expert though,it might not be something worth thinking about.
Cheers
Tim
In reply to deepsoup: Knotted tape loading is more apreciated if you have an apreciation or Slinging and Rigging. Knotted tape loads in a non uniform manner at one point of the knot rather than uniformly across the whole width of the tape. I hope this makes sense.
In reply to Oceanic:
Yes, I think you're right... but I think if you are putting things down in black and white in an authoratative book then it must be absolutely correct.
> (In reply to Tim Rowan)
>
> Yes that's right.
>
> My question was related to the fact that if a climber fell off, the force would be absorbed by a dynamic climbing rope, before passing to the belayer and then through static slings to the anchor. So I don't see how a dynamic attachment between the belayer and the anchors would be beneficial if the climber falls.
>
> Having read other peoples thoughts the only suggestion as to why the attachment between the belayer and the anchors should be dynamic would seem to be that the belayer might climb above the anchors and then fall.
>
> Yes that's right.
>
> My question was related to the fact that if a climber fell off, the force would be absorbed by a dynamic climbing rope, before passing to the belayer and then through static slings to the anchor. So I don't see how a dynamic attachment between the belayer and the anchors would be beneficial if the climber falls.
>
> Having read other peoples thoughts the only suggestion as to why the attachment between the belayer and the anchors should be dynamic would seem to be that the belayer might climb above the anchors and then fall.
Yes, I think you're right... but I think if you are putting things down in black and white in an authoratative book then it must be absolutely correct.
In reply to jon:
I think I've been guilty in the past of saying "don't do that, it's dangerous"
when I should have said "you can do that if you want, you just need to understand that sometimes it is dangerous"
It's particularly tempting to go down the "don't do that" line when talking to beginners, and I think the article I read was aimed mainly at beginners.
> if you are putting things down in black and white in an authoratative book then it must be absolutely correct.
I think I've been guilty in the past of saying "don't do that, it's dangerous"
when I should have said "you can do that if you want, you just need to understand that sometimes it is dangerous"
It's particularly tempting to go down the "don't do that" line when talking to beginners, and I think the article I read was aimed mainly at beginners.
In reply to Oceanic: I honestly think you are being too hard on yourself, if you take the fact that there is a thread running about hitting the ground some folks obviously do need it putting bluntly. Do this and you will die or get hurt badly. There is nothing wrong with saying what is the best accepted practice for novices to learn. Then again anyone novice or experience will hit the ground in the same way and do the same damage.
In reply to Oceanic:
I guess if you can't always trust that the person you're belaying won't fall off before s/he's put a runner in when you're on multi pitch,it's a good habit to get into doing just in case,to use a rope to tie into the belay with instead of using a sling. I'm not sure why it would be a bad habit to get into,except from a bit more time spent faffing about at belays,which I suppose could be a factor in the alps or somewhere like that,but i suppose you'd need to be sure they wouldn't fall off. I always thought the point about setting up protection was to build redendency into the system,and using a sling to clip between you and the belay seem's to be going against that a little bit.
Cheers
Tim
> (In reply to jon)
> [...]
>
> I think I've been guilty in the past of saying "don't do that, it's dangerous"
>
> when I should have said "you can do that if you want, you just need to understand that sometimes it is dangerous"
>
> It's particularly tempting to go down the "don't do that" line when talking to beginners, and I think the article I read was aimed mainly at beginners.
> [...]
>
> I think I've been guilty in the past of saying "don't do that, it's dangerous"
>
> when I should have said "you can do that if you want, you just need to understand that sometimes it is dangerous"
>
> It's particularly tempting to go down the "don't do that" line when talking to beginners, and I think the article I read was aimed mainly at beginners.
I guess if you can't always trust that the person you're belaying won't fall off before s/he's put a runner in when you're on multi pitch,it's a good habit to get into doing just in case,to use a rope to tie into the belay with instead of using a sling. I'm not sure why it would be a bad habit to get into,except from a bit more time spent faffing about at belays,which I suppose could be a factor in the alps or somewhere like that,but i suppose you'd need to be sure they wouldn't fall off. I always thought the point about setting up protection was to build redendency into the system,and using a sling to clip between you and the belay seem's to be going against that a little bit.
Cheers
Tim
In reply to muppetfilter:
Er.. I was talking about dyneema tape as compared to nylon tape, so I'm not sure I see the relevance of this really.
Er.. I was talking about dyneema tape as compared to nylon tape, so I'm not sure I see the relevance of this really.
> if you have an apreciation or Slinging and Rigging
Ha ha, priceless. You are *SO* far up yourself! In reply to Oceanic:
Provided that the belayer NEVER moves and remains tight on the sling, there is little problem.
However, the issue is that even a very low factor fall with a sling (e.g. a slip with some slack) can develop as much or more force than a leader or a second taking a pretty massive fall held via a friction belay device. Even using the rope, the belayer should remain tight on the anchors but the resultant forces on the anchors should the belayer not do so and fall/slip are much reduced compared to using a sling. Therefore since you always have a rope tied to you unless abseiling it is therefore a un-necessary risk to use a sling rather than the rope to attach yourself.
Also, the shock absorption of a standard fig-8 knot is roughly equivalent to pehaps an extra metre of rope which means that even just attaching yourself very close to your tie in loop still makes an appreciable difference.
> Can anyone explain what I'm missing?
Provided that the belayer NEVER moves and remains tight on the sling, there is little problem.
However, the issue is that even a very low factor fall with a sling (e.g. a slip with some slack) can develop as much or more force than a leader or a second taking a pretty massive fall held via a friction belay device. Even using the rope, the belayer should remain tight on the anchors but the resultant forces on the anchors should the belayer not do so and fall/slip are much reduced compared to using a sling. Therefore since you always have a rope tied to you unless abseiling it is therefore a un-necessary risk to use a sling rather than the rope to attach yourself.
Also, the shock absorption of a standard fig-8 knot is roughly equivalent to pehaps an extra metre of rope which means that even just attaching yourself very close to your tie in loop still makes an appreciable difference.
In reply to Oceanic: Hello Steve! Hope you're well. I haven't been on here for a while.
Reference to your original post, I don't agree with what you say they wrote. I clipped myself into a 'sling belay' with another sling direct to my harness just the other day. Nothing wrong with it in the right circumstances, so to say one should NEVER do it is a bit silly really.
Reference to your original post, I don't agree with what you say they wrote. I clipped myself into a 'sling belay' with another sling direct to my harness just the other day. Nothing wrong with it in the right circumstances, so to say one should NEVER do it is a bit silly really.
In reply to Oceanic: reference to that dynamic cordaletter thread, as I understand it the whole cordalette thing came from the continent where it was commonplace to use exactly what you suggested. The name 'cordalette' has just been transferred to the static sling versions which are now fairly commonplace.
It probably started on the continent because of the common bolt belay. And those continental folk are just cowboys anyway )
It probably started on the continent because of the common bolt belay. And those continental folk are just cowboys anyway )
In reply to Oceanic:
Put in the black and white way that things like this appear in 'how to do it' books, the uninformed can easily come away with the impression that if you don't follow the methods advocated to the letter, then there will be a catastrophic failure and they will die. This is, of course, far from the truth - maybe the problem with this type of book...
However, what no one has addressed so far on this thread is that even the smallest 'fall' onto a sling/cowstail, used in a belay situation, is extremely painful. Next time you have the chance, clip in with a sling - or even a dynamic cowstail, and pull yourself up say 10cms - then let go. If that doesn't convince you of the forces involved, nothing will.
Put in the black and white way that things like this appear in 'how to do it' books, the uninformed can easily come away with the impression that if you don't follow the methods advocated to the letter, then there will be a catastrophic failure and they will die. This is, of course, far from the truth - maybe the problem with this type of book...
However, what no one has addressed so far on this thread is that even the smallest 'fall' onto a sling/cowstail, used in a belay situation, is extremely painful. Next time you have the chance, clip in with a sling - or even a dynamic cowstail, and pull yourself up say 10cms - then let go. If that doesn't convince you of the forces involved, nothing will.
In reply to Oceanic:
Just trying to visualise this in my mind's eye. If the belayer did not use a length of rope between themselves and the sling, where would the rope be anchored?
> The article said that when joining belay anchors with a sling, a climber should never attach the sling directly to themselves, but should always use a length of rope between the belayer and the sling...
Just trying to visualise this in my mind's eye. If the belayer did not use a length of rope between themselves and the sling, where would the rope be anchored?
In reply to Andy S:
Hi Andy, it's good to hear from you.
I'm pretty sure that the Cordelette idea started in the USA using 7mm static cord.
So maybe they were real cowboys?
Joking aside Panda has bought herself a 7mm static rope cordelette after being converted to them when she was in the states, they're certainly good on multi pitch routes when you are not leading through.
Hi Andy, it's good to hear from you.
I'm pretty sure that the Cordelette idea started in the USA using 7mm static cord.
So maybe they were real cowboys?
Joking aside Panda has bought herself a 7mm static rope cordelette after being converted to them when she was in the states, they're certainly good on multi pitch routes when you are not leading through.
In reply to LordFlashheart:
To the knot loop, so if you wanted to be pedantic, there is a tiny bit of knotted dynamic rope involved.
> (In reply to Oceanic)
> [...]
> where would the rope be anchored?
> [...]
> where would the rope be anchored?
To the knot loop, so if you wanted to be pedantic, there is a tiny bit of knotted dynamic rope involved.
In reply to Tim Rowan:
Most slings are rated to ~22 KN, I wouldn't worry about snapping them unless you were doing something very stupid. Remember that slings are designed to withstand shock loads when you fall on them on lead, albeit mitigated by using a dynamic rope.
When you knot them the tape tends to load unevenly and as a conservative estimate I think you could expect to halve that strength, 10 KN is still pretty strong.
UKC has promised us an article on the issue of the strength of knotted dyneema since a lot of people are suggesting that dyneema melts under high impact forces and on here it seems to be snowballing into something akin to the MMR vacine myth. I would take a lob onto knotted dyneema on lead, I regularly build belays out of knotted dyneema in a 4 m wild country sling Designed For That Very Purpose!!
It'll be interesting to see what UKC/BMC/DMM come up with as the definitive word on this one.
I don't think there would be anything in it with a ~1m cows tail. You'd do better to be vigilant about clipping to the loop formed from tying in with a fig 8 on the rope rather than the belay loop as the fig 8 clinching tight is supposed to do a decent job of removing shock loads. Of course this can also be easily achieved by using the rope you've already tied into and knot...
> my understanding on the subject is that slings (especially dynema?) have been known to fail, or are at least not as strong, under a dynamic load. i.e. shock loading a sling is not a great idea.
Most slings are rated to ~22 KN, I wouldn't worry about snapping them unless you were doing something very stupid. Remember that slings are designed to withstand shock loads when you fall on them on lead, albeit mitigated by using a dynamic rope.
When you knot them the tape tends to load unevenly and as a conservative estimate I think you could expect to halve that strength, 10 KN is still pretty strong.
UKC has promised us an article on the issue of the strength of knotted dyneema since a lot of people are suggesting that dyneema melts under high impact forces and on here it seems to be snowballing into something akin to the MMR vacine myth. I would take a lob onto knotted dyneema on lead, I regularly build belays out of knotted dyneema in a 4 m wild country sling Designed For That Very Purpose!!
It'll be interesting to see what UKC/BMC/DMM come up with as the definitive word on this one.
> Of course, dynamic rope is designed to absorb some of the impact in it's stretch, making it more suitable for use as a cows tail, when belaying e.t.c.
I don't think there would be anything in it with a ~1m cows tail. You'd do better to be vigilant about clipping to the loop formed from tying in with a fig 8 on the rope rather than the belay loop as the fig 8 clinching tight is supposed to do a decent job of removing shock loads. Of course this can also be easily achieved by using the rope you've already tied into and knot...
In reply to Oceanic:
if its that bad then what the hell is this? http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/Products/Slings/Cordelette/
I quote from the page "1. Clip the Cordelette through multiple anchor points.
2. Gather the sections which are between the anchors and pull towards you until they are of equal length.
3. Tie into a simple overhand knot and then clip a screwgate into this and connect to your harness. "
If it was that deadly then I'm sure WC wouldn't be selling it.
>
> The article said that when joining belay anchors with a sling, a climber should never attach the sling directly to themselves, but should always use a length of rope between the belayer and the sling to provide some shock absorption.
> The article said that when joining belay anchors with a sling, a climber should never attach the sling directly to themselves, but should always use a length of rope between the belayer and the sling to provide some shock absorption.
if its that bad then what the hell is this? http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/Products/Slings/Cordelette/
I quote from the page "1. Clip the Cordelette through multiple anchor points.
2. Gather the sections which are between the anchors and pull towards you until they are of equal length.
3. Tie into a simple overhand knot and then clip a screwgate into this and connect to your harness. "
If it was that deadly then I'm sure WC wouldn't be selling it.
In reply to Oceanic:
Does it actually say "never attatch it directly"? or is it just showing you how to put the rope throughthe screwgate (on the sling), to get the distance to your belaying position right before atatching with a clove hitch/ fig 8 on a bight??
Does it actually say "never attatch it directly"? or is it just showing you how to put the rope throughthe screwgate (on the sling), to get the distance to your belaying position right before atatching with a clove hitch/ fig 8 on a bight??
In reply to petellis: or what you said - pretty much what I was trying to go on about.
In reply to Shandy:
I'm going to the wall where I read the magazine article this evening, I'm pretty sure it did say 'never' but I will check and report back.
I'm going to the wall where I read the magazine article this evening, I'm pretty sure it did say 'never' but I will check and report back.
Sling belays are ok in certain situations, though I would use slings in a belay only if something actually needs slinging. If it's just a matter of connecting bits of gear it's as easy to use the rope and it seems counterintuitive to add another link in the system in the form of a sling. It might be easier to equalise the gear with a sling and an overhand knot than with the rope, but a sling would only work if the gear is fairly close together and how often do you get that?
In reply to petellis:
I suppose you are right that the risk of snapping a belay sling is low unless you're doing something stupid, such as climbing above the sling to place another bit of gear for the belay and falling off onto a sling. The important point however is that a sling might not take a factor 2 fall (a rope should, even if it's only a short bit of rope, and is rated accordingly). Slings are not rated for shock loads. They might be 22 KN but that's for a static load - big difference. Falling onto a sling or quickdraw in a leading situation is basically a static load, with a lot of the KN taken out by the elasticity of the rope, rope drag and dynamic belaying. Falling onto a sling direcly is much riskier.
In reply to petellis:
> Most slings are rated to ~22 KN, I wouldn't worry about snapping them unless you were doing something very stupid. Remember that slings are designed to withstand shock loads when you fall on them on lead, albeit mitigated by using a dynamic rope.
I suppose you are right that the risk of snapping a belay sling is low unless you're doing something stupid, such as climbing above the sling to place another bit of gear for the belay and falling off onto a sling. The important point however is that a sling might not take a factor 2 fall (a rope should, even if it's only a short bit of rope, and is rated accordingly). Slings are not rated for shock loads. They might be 22 KN but that's for a static load - big difference. Falling onto a sling or quickdraw in a leading situation is basically a static load, with a lot of the KN taken out by the elasticity of the rope, rope drag and dynamic belaying. Falling onto a sling direcly is much riskier.
In reply to Oceanic:
Yes that's when they're king.
Who's Panda?!
> (In reply to Andy S)
>
> Hi Andy, it's good to hear from you.
>
> I'm pretty sure that the Cordelette idea started in the USA using 7mm static cord.
>
> So maybe they were real cowboys?
>
> Joking aside Panda has bought herself a 7mm static rope cordelette after being converted to them when she was in the states, they're certainly good on multi pitch routes when you are not leading through.
>
> Hi Andy, it's good to hear from you.
>
> I'm pretty sure that the Cordelette idea started in the USA using 7mm static cord.
>
> So maybe they were real cowboys?
>
> Joking aside Panda has bought herself a 7mm static rope cordelette after being converted to them when she was in the states, they're certainly good on multi pitch routes when you are not leading through.
Yes that's when they're king.
Who's Panda?!
In reply to petellis:
> (In reply to Tim Rowan)
> It'll be interesting to see what UKC/BMC/DMM come up with as the definitive word on this one.
>
We never such 'definitive words' because it's a pointless conversation! >
In reply to Shandy:
The article (Climber Sept 08) says that you should always include a length of rope between the belayer and the sling. Although the author does say elsewhere in the article that there is no such thing as a hard and fast rule.
> (In reply to Oceanic)
> Does it actually say "never attatch it directly"?
> Does it actually say "never attatch it directly"?
The article (Climber Sept 08) says that you should always include a length of rope between the belayer and the sling. Although the author does say elsewhere in the article that there is no such thing as a hard and fast rule.
In reply to Oceanic:
I can't see the elasticity of the short bit of climbing rope between belay and climber making much difference... it's the stretch in the active part of the rope that absorbs the shock, plus letting the rope run a bit if you do this and the friction through the protection. Many climbers clip the belay device into the belay directly so the elasticity of the sling or rope holding the belayer is irrelevant anyway.
Whether I wear a harness or not I usually tie in with the climbing ropes anyway, it makes it easier to equalize the belay, but I wouldn't be worried about using tape slings either... sounds like an artificial worry to me.
I can't see the elasticity of the short bit of climbing rope between belay and climber making much difference... it's the stretch in the active part of the rope that absorbs the shock, plus letting the rope run a bit if you do this and the friction through the protection. Many climbers clip the belay device into the belay directly so the elasticity of the sling or rope holding the belayer is irrelevant anyway.
Whether I wear a harness or not I usually tie in with the climbing ropes anyway, it makes it easier to equalize the belay, but I wouldn't be worried about using tape slings either... sounds like an artificial worry to me.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Bruce, you're absolutely right. As I said above somewhere, however, if you are producing a definitive book that works progressively through the learning process for novice climbers, everything has to be 'very correct'. You can't say to a novice "that's the establishment's way of doing it, but frankly I think it's bollocks, so do it like this..."
Bruce, you're absolutely right. As I said above somewhere, however, if you are producing a definitive book that works progressively through the learning process for novice climbers, everything has to be 'very correct'. You can't say to a novice "that's the establishment's way of doing it, but frankly I think it's bollocks, so do it like this..."
In reply to Oceanic:
I think its probably as (misha?) says above - to guard against people who attach themselves to a sling on a nut say, for safety while they set up a belay on a stance and who then climb a little higher (or even step up a little bit) to place another anchor and slip. I understand that there have been cases where slings (presumably knotted?) have melted-through in these circumstances.
Its a judgement call, and, as people's judgement varies, it probably makes sense for (Libby Peters?) to recommend a rope between sling and climber so as to avoid possible litigation - I would do the same thing if I were giving advice to others in an official capacity.
Personally, I have made myself a lanyard from a bit of rope I had to trim off my 60m rope. It is tied on to my harness at all times and has a screwgate at the other end. This allows me to clip in quickly virtually anywhere when setting up anchors etc. It is also useful for rescues, for attatching someone else to you when you're tied in to a system if they want to approach the edge, etc. It has been useful every time I've climbed since I first started doing it after my (sorry for those who hate the following reference) SPA Training.
I think its probably as (misha?) says above - to guard against people who attach themselves to a sling on a nut say, for safety while they set up a belay on a stance and who then climb a little higher (or even step up a little bit) to place another anchor and slip. I understand that there have been cases where slings (presumably knotted?) have melted-through in these circumstances.
Its a judgement call, and, as people's judgement varies, it probably makes sense for (Libby Peters?) to recommend a rope between sling and climber so as to avoid possible litigation - I would do the same thing if I were giving advice to others in an official capacity.
Personally, I have made myself a lanyard from a bit of rope I had to trim off my 60m rope. It is tied on to my harness at all times and has a screwgate at the other end. This allows me to clip in quickly virtually anywhere when setting up anchors etc. It is also useful for rescues, for attatching someone else to you when you're tied in to a system if they want to approach the edge, etc. It has been useful every time I've climbed since I first started doing it after my (sorry for those who hate the following reference) SPA Training.
In reply to petellis:
Then you'd most probably die!
No time to search for it on here right now, but a year, maybe 2, ago we had a thread regarding tests that, I think, PYB, had done with attaching weights to knotted slings and allowing them to fall from *only* the length of the sling distance above the anchor point. They broke.
If a lead fall directly onto a knotted sling (no rope in the system) is safe, WHY do people climbing vie ferrate need to use a "Zyper" or something similar?
> (In reply to Tim Rowan)
> [...]
>
> Most slings are rated to ~22 KN, I wouldn't worry about snapping them unless you were doing something very stupid. Remember that slings are designed to withstand shock loads when you fall on them on lead, albeit mitigated by using a dynamic rope.
>
> When you knot them the tape tends to load unevenly and as a conservative estimate I think you could expect to halve that strength, 10 KN is still pretty strong.
>
> UKC has promised us an article on the issue of the strength of knotted dyneema since a lot of people are suggesting that dyneema melts under high impact forces and on here it seems to be snowballing into something akin to the MMR vacine myth. I would take a lob onto knotted dyneema on lead,
> [...]
>
> Most slings are rated to ~22 KN, I wouldn't worry about snapping them unless you were doing something very stupid. Remember that slings are designed to withstand shock loads when you fall on them on lead, albeit mitigated by using a dynamic rope.
>
> When you knot them the tape tends to load unevenly and as a conservative estimate I think you could expect to halve that strength, 10 KN is still pretty strong.
>
> UKC has promised us an article on the issue of the strength of knotted dyneema since a lot of people are suggesting that dyneema melts under high impact forces and on here it seems to be snowballing into something akin to the MMR vacine myth. I would take a lob onto knotted dyneema on lead,
Then you'd most probably die!
No time to search for it on here right now, but a year, maybe 2, ago we had a thread regarding tests that, I think, PYB, had done with attaching weights to knotted slings and allowing them to fall from *only* the length of the sling distance above the anchor point. They broke.
If a lead fall directly onto a knotted sling (no rope in the system) is safe, WHY do people climbing vie ferrate need to use a "Zyper" or something similar?
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
As Mark S says, it's no problem if the anchors remain tight. It's if you do something like climb above the anchor with just the sling for pro while you, eg, place a piece of gear above it for your second to clip into when you swing leads. you're then in a position where you might take a FF2 fall onto tjust the sling, no rope. And they've broken with 80kg on them in those circumstances, IIRC.
> (In reply to Oceanic)
> Whether I wear a harness or not I usually tie in with the climbing ropes anyway, it makes it easier to equalize the belay, but I wouldn't be worried about using tape slings either... sounds like an artificial worry to me.
> Whether I wear a harness or not I usually tie in with the climbing ropes anyway, it makes it easier to equalize the belay, but I wouldn't be worried about using tape slings either... sounds like an artificial worry to me.
As Mark S says, it's no problem if the anchors remain tight. It's if you do something like climb above the anchor with just the sling for pro while you, eg, place a piece of gear above it for your second to clip into when you swing leads. you're then in a position where you might take a FF2 fall onto tjust the sling, no rope. And they've broken with 80kg on them in those circumstances, IIRC.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
So how about using a sling to extend your quick draw? Is it dodgy to use a sling shortened with an overhand knot for this?
So how about using a sling to extend your quick draw? Is it dodgy to use a sling shortened with an overhand knot for this?
In reply to Misha:
They're rated to 22 KN...
I see that you're trying to get at - if you dropped a weight on a length of static sling vs a length of rope the sling won't strech and so you'll generate 22 KN of impact force with a shorter drop than with the rope but you'd have to be a total dumbass to climb above the balay attached with a sling and then even dumber to fall off in the process.
I can't see this happeing in the real world and going back to the OP's question adding a little bit of rope between the belayer and the belay isn't going to make any difference.
I agree with the last sentence but a lead fall on a QD is still a sudden impact on the sling - not a static load. Yes the rope strech reduces the impact force by spreading the impact duration but in a big fall low down a route we're still talking ~5 KN.
Try http://www.myoan.net/climbart/climbforcecal.html
This is relevant to the OP becase a factor 2 on the belay may be even higher ~9 KN on that calculator and incedentally that would give you a good margin of safety on a belay made of 22 KN slings.
> Slings are not rated for shock loads. They might be 22 KN but that's for a static load - big difference.
They're rated to 22 KN...
I see that you're trying to get at - if you dropped a weight on a length of static sling vs a length of rope the sling won't strech and so you'll generate 22 KN of impact force with a shorter drop than with the rope but you'd have to be a total dumbass to climb above the balay attached with a sling and then even dumber to fall off in the process.
I can't see this happeing in the real world and going back to the OP's question adding a little bit of rope between the belayer and the belay isn't going to make any difference.
> Falling onto a sling or quickdraw in a leading situation is basically a static load, with a lot of the KN taken out by the elasticity of the rope, rope drag and dynamic belaying. Falling onto a sling direcly is much riskier.
I agree with the last sentence but a lead fall on a QD is still a sudden impact on the sling - not a static load. Yes the rope strech reduces the impact force by spreading the impact duration but in a big fall low down a route we're still talking ~5 KN.
Try http://www.myoan.net/climbart/climbforcecal.html
This is relevant to the OP becase a factor 2 on the belay may be even higher ~9 KN on that calculator and incedentally that would give you a good margin of safety on a belay made of 22 KN slings.
In reply to Shandy:
No, because your rope's in the system.
One of the threads we had on this before is at:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=177030&v=1#x2545745
Started by me based on a misunderstanding of a report I'd heard at second hand (hence the careful wording of my initial post).
As that thread develops, though, you can see the various possible configurations that may cause a sling to fail, and the poster above who says he'd happily take a *lead* fall climbing on knotted dyneema (presumably in place of a rope) is asking for trouble if he ever did it!
No, because your rope's in the system.
One of the threads we had on this before is at:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=177030&v=1#x2545745
Started by me based on a misunderstanding of a report I'd heard at second hand (hence the careful wording of my initial post).
As that thread develops, though, you can see the various possible configurations that may cause a sling to fail, and the poster above who says he'd happily take a *lead* fall climbing on knotted dyneema (presumably in place of a rope) is asking for trouble if he ever did it!
In reply to petellis:
Well it's been documented as happening at least twice.
Did I misunderstand your previous post where you said you'd "happily take a lead fall onto knotted dyneema"? I assumed you meant "directly" as in dyneema being the only component of your safety system...ie, moving above your anchor on just a sling, which you now describe as a "dumbass" thing to do.
If you meant taking a lob onto your lead rope where the piece of gear below you's been extended with a knotted sling, then I'd agree...I wouldn't worry overmuch about doing that, either...but it's not what I understood you to be saying in the other post.
> (In reply to Misha)
> [...]
>
> They're rated to 22 KN...
>
> I see that you're trying to get at - if you dropped a weight on a length of static sling vs a length of rope the sling won't strech and so you'll generate 22 KN of impact force with a shorter drop than with the rope but you'd have to be a total dumbass to climb above the balay attached with a sling and then even dumber to fall off in the process.
> [...]
>
> They're rated to 22 KN...
>
> I see that you're trying to get at - if you dropped a weight on a length of static sling vs a length of rope the sling won't strech and so you'll generate 22 KN of impact force with a shorter drop than with the rope but you'd have to be a total dumbass to climb above the balay attached with a sling and then even dumber to fall off in the process.
Well it's been documented as happening at least twice.
Did I misunderstand your previous post where you said you'd "happily take a lead fall onto knotted dyneema"? I assumed you meant "directly" as in dyneema being the only component of your safety system...ie, moving above your anchor on just a sling, which you now describe as a "dumbass" thing to do.
If you meant taking a lob onto your lead rope where the piece of gear below you's been extended with a knotted sling, then I'd agree...I wouldn't worry overmuch about doing that, either...but it's not what I understood you to be saying in the other post.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
What?!
I'm would have thought that would be the case. I'm not advocating falling off attached only to a static sling - you'd be an idiot to do that.
I'm not saying its safe to fall on a static sling alone.
The zipper is needed becase in a via ferrata fall absolutely huge impact forces can be generated. In a fall the climber slides down the steel cable to the next large steel anchor (typically 4 - 5 m on the ones I've done). There is absolutely no give in that sort of system, if you used a static sling you would either a)break you back b)snap the sling c)break the karabiner attaching you to the wire or most likely a combination of all three.
> Then you'd most probably die!
What?!
> No time to search for it on here right now, but a year, maybe 2, ago we had a thread regarding tests that, I think, PYB, had done with attaching weights to knotted slings and allowing them to fall from *only* the length of the sling distance above the anchor point. They broke.
I'm would have thought that would be the case. I'm not advocating falling off attached only to a static sling - you'd be an idiot to do that.
> If a lead fall directly onto a knotted sling (no rope in the system) is safe, WHY do people climbing vie ferrate need to use a "Zyper" or something similar?
I'm not saying its safe to fall on a static sling alone.
The zipper is needed becase in a via ferrata fall absolutely huge impact forces can be generated. In a fall the climber slides down the steel cable to the next large steel anchor (typically 4 - 5 m on the ones I've done). There is absolutely no give in that sort of system, if you used a static sling you would either a)break you back b)snap the sling c)break the karabiner attaching you to the wire or most likely a combination of all three.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
aye you misunderstood - I said lead fall becase I meant a lead fall (with ropes). I dunno about you but I never lead on dyneema tape!
> (In reply to petellis)
> [...]
>
> Well it's been documented as happening at least twice.
>
> Did I misunderstand your previous post where you said you'd "happily take a lead fall onto knotted dyneema"? I assumed you meant "directly" as in dyneema being the only component of your safety system...
> [...]
>
> Well it's been documented as happening at least twice.
>
> Did I misunderstand your previous post where you said you'd "happily take a lead fall onto knotted dyneema"? I assumed you meant "directly" as in dyneema being the only component of your safety system...
aye you misunderstood - I said lead fall becase I meant a lead fall (with ropes). I dunno about you but I never lead on dyneema tape!
In reply to petellis:
Thought it sounded odd, but that's the way it seemed to read to me!!!
So basically, we agree.
But I do often see people moving around on ledges with only a slack sling connected to an anchor. It *is* a dumbass thing to do, but people do it.
Thought it sounded odd, but that's the way it seemed to read to me!!!
So basically, we agree.
But I do often see people moving around on ledges with only a slack sling connected to an anchor. It *is* a dumbass thing to do, but people do it.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
intereesting, because I belive a 'slack sling' larksfooted to the belay loop is the 'official' way of doing it isn't it?
> (In reply to petellis)
.>
> But I do often see people moving around on ledges with only a slack sling connected to an anchor. It *is* a dumbass thing to do, but people do it.
> But I do often see people moving around on ledges with only a slack sling connected to an anchor. It *is* a dumbass thing to do, but people do it.
intereesting, because I belive a 'slack sling' larksfooted to the belay loop is the 'official' way of doing it isn't it?
Just an amateur opinion but I think we're missing the point of the article (although I haven't read it), Surely it's not an argument about how strong your Dynema sling/Nylon Sling/Cord/Rope is, but the final force that will be exerted on the anchors.
Assuming we're using trad gear although relevant either way, if a dynamic system well always produce less force on what maybe marginal anchors reducing the chances of failure.
It's fine saying your Dynema will withstand 22KN but I doubt a alot of trad anchors will come anywhere near this!
Assuming we're using trad gear although relevant either way, if a dynamic system well always produce less force on what maybe marginal anchors reducing the chances of failure.
It's fine saying your Dynema will withstand 22KN but I doubt a alot of trad anchors will come anywhere near this!
In reply to VirtualPowerPete:
Nor your body
There is a research paper on this subject ( struggling to find it) which more or less says, anything above 10kn, you're dead!
> It's fine saying your Dynema will withstand 22KN but I doubt a alot of trad anchors will come anywhere near this!
Nor your body
There is a research paper on this subject ( struggling to find it) which more or less says, anything above 10kn, you're dead!
Last summer a French climber took a very small 'slip' at a belay, attached by a short static sling, snapped the bolt and unfortunatly it didnt end well.
If he used a dynamic attachment i.e. the rope, then he may still be here today.
There is a new's article on here somewhere
If he used a dynamic attachment i.e. the rope, then he may still be here today.
There is a new's article on here somewhere
In reply to petellis:
Indeed! I wonder if such an accident has actually ever happened. Probably has, nothing new under the Sun...
> (In reply to Misha)
> [...]
> [...]
> I see that you're trying to get at - if you dropped a weight on a length of static sling vs a length of rope the sling won't strech and so you'll generate 22 KN of impact force with a shorter drop than with the rope but you'd have to be a total dumbass to climb above the balay attached with a sling and then even dumber to fall off in the process.
Indeed! I wonder if such an accident has actually ever happened. Probably has, nothing new under the Sun...
In reply to Chris Tan Ver. LI - On the Bog:
Is this the one you're thinking of?
http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/hsl_pdf/2003/hsl03-09.pdf
Is this the one you're thinking of?
http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/hsl_pdf/2003/hsl03-09.pdf
In reply to antwan: I was told a story of a woman attaching herself to a bolt with a sling and using it to work a move above the bolt, she fell and the force broke her back.
But let's not get carried away folks, just use a bit of common-sense eh?!
But let's not get carried away folks, just use a bit of common-sense eh?!
In reply to Oceanic:
Any guides care to comment on this, I would be interested to hear their angle. ( so sorry about the pun, given we are talking about slings at belay anchors..)
Any guides care to comment on this, I would be interested to hear their angle. ( so sorry about the pun, given we are talking about slings at belay anchors..)
In reply to Chris Tan Ver. LI - On the Bog:
sounds about right, correct me if I am wrong, but in the case of fall arrest equipment used within the industrial sector I believe that lanyards have to deploy at a point that keeps the impact force to 6kN or below. I'm confident that a fall inflicting a 6kN force on your body would be damaging so I'm inclined to agree with you that a 10Kn fall force would be potentially life changing.
sounds about right, correct me if I am wrong, but in the case of fall arrest equipment used within the industrial sector I believe that lanyards have to deploy at a point that keeps the impact force to 6kN or below. I'm confident that a fall inflicting a 6kN force on your body would be damaging so I'm inclined to agree with you that a 10Kn fall force would be potentially life changing.
In reply to crieff427:
Deepsoup's link covers this in detail - there's a wonderful graph in it where they impact tested pigs chimps and humans to destruction to find the answer...
> (In reply to Chris Tan Ver. LI - On the Bog)
>
> sounds about right, correct me if I am wrong, but in the case of fall arrest equipment used within the industrial sector I believe that lanyards have to deploy at a point that keeps the impact force to 6kN or below. I'm confident that a fall inflicting a 6kN force on your body would be damaging so I'm inclined to agree with you that a 10Kn fall force would be potentially life changing.
>
> sounds about right, correct me if I am wrong, but in the case of fall arrest equipment used within the industrial sector I believe that lanyards have to deploy at a point that keeps the impact force to 6kN or below. I'm confident that a fall inflicting a 6kN force on your body would be damaging so I'm inclined to agree with you that a 10Kn fall force would be potentially life changing.
Deepsoup's link covers this in detail - there's a wonderful graph in it where they impact tested pigs chimps and humans to destruction to find the answer...
In reply to crieff427:
You mean the OP or something more specific? If the former, then look above. If the latter... tell me.
> (In reply to Oceanic)
>
>
> Any guides care to comment on this, I would be interested to hear their angle. ( so sorry about the pun, given we are talking about slings at belay anchors..)
>
>
> Any guides care to comment on this, I would be interested to hear their angle. ( so sorry about the pun, given we are talking about slings at belay anchors..)
You mean the OP or something more specific? If the former, then look above. If the latter... tell me.
In reply to Oceanic: This subject has been done to death on a couple of occasions in the past. The best explanation I've seen is on the Beal website under Dynamic Lanyards where it shows the results from some tests of 80kg factor 1 fall when Dyneema gives an impact of over 15Kn and fails, Nylon slings give 11kn which is enough to cause injury and the short dynamic lanyard only gives 6.2kn.
Tapes are fine as a direct connection between the climber and a solid anchor ONLY if there is NO slack at all in the system.
The tests that slings are put through to comply with the CE standard that I think is EN566 is not a dynamic load and so this situation is not replicated.
The melting point has little to do with it as nylon melts at 230C, polyester at 260C and Dyneema at 145C which is lower but is rairly an issue in climbing.
Tapes are fine as a direct connection between the climber and a solid anchor ONLY if there is NO slack at all in the system.
The tests that slings are put through to comply with the CE standard that I think is EN566 is not a dynamic load and so this situation is not replicated.
The melting point has little to do with it as nylon melts at 230C, polyester at 260C and Dyneema at 145C which is lower but is rairly an issue in climbing.
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