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Can it be done? I want to streamline my rack and cams would arguably be more versatile. And definately less noisy.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
Yep, I've been climbing for over 15 years and I don't have any hex's. Just replace with cams.
J
Yep, I've been climbing for over 15 years and I don't have any hex's. Just replace with cams.
J
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
I haven't used hexes in at least 10 years. Assuming you can afford enough cams and are capable of using them effectively you should be able to sell your hexes on ebay!
Yes, there will always be an occasional placement that's perfect for a hex and where a cam really isn't great, but these times are so rare they aren't worth lugging a whole rack of hexes to every crag and up every route for.
I haven't used hexes in at least 10 years. Assuming you can afford enough cams and are capable of using them effectively you should be able to sell your hexes on ebay!
Yes, there will always be an occasional placement that's perfect for a hex and where a cam really isn't great, but these times are so rare they aren't worth lugging a whole rack of hexes to every crag and up every route for.
In reply to john arran: Likewise, I haven't used any hexes for the last 10 years - I bought some as a beginner, but ended up giving them away once I caved in to my cam buying addiction
In reply to Jamie Bankhead: Yes. I only ever carry a couple in the winter.
In reply to mike kann:
Ah, but Jamie does a lot of winter stuff as well, so which should he keep for then?
Ah, but Jamie does a lot of winter stuff as well, so which should he keep for then?
In reply to mike kann:
In winter I'd never be without them, and I would miss the odd decent placement in summer, but I definately dont get the full value from my cams. I'm also interested in the big (11-14) rocks on wire.
In winter I'd never be without them, and I would miss the odd decent placement in summer, but I definately dont get the full value from my cams. I'm also interested in the big (11-14) rocks on wire.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead: For most UK trad if you have a FULL set of cams (specificaly 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5 and 4) there is utterly no point in carrying hexes. I've got a Rockcentric 6 on wire on my large wires krab as an alternative to the large WC Rocks but in common with others haven't carried standard hexes/rockcentrics for personal climbing since 2001.
However, there are a couple of exceptions:
1) Climbing the big E1-E3 routes on Fairhead. You have 40 metre plus pitches and can place 20+ runners without any problem, so many climbers will carry a hexes in addition to a full set of cams.
2) Winter climbing. I always carry at least 2 and often more hexes/rockcentrics and almost all winter climbers do the same.
However, there are a couple of exceptions:
1) Climbing the big E1-E3 routes on Fairhead. You have 40 metre plus pitches and can place 20+ runners without any problem, so many climbers will carry a hexes in addition to a full set of cams.
2) Winter climbing. I always carry at least 2 and often more hexes/rockcentrics and almost all winter climbers do the same.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead: Personally I really rate the large rocks - they do exactly what they say on the tin and are a complete no brainer. They're just rocks but big. I can't say I've ever missed having hexs - I only started using them a couple of seasons ago for winter stuff - I think I've got a 6 and an 8, or sommit like that. In winter I also carry tricams as I find they are very very versatile and have provided placements in the most bizarre placements which would accept nothing else. Slightly heavier but I find them irreplacable. For summer I never carry hexes or tricams, just cams and nuts...
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
3) Climbing on limestone.
4) Climbing on rock types whose surface grains are poorly cemented due to in-situ weathering.
Yawn.
3) Climbing on limestone.
4) Climbing on rock types whose surface grains are poorly cemented due to in-situ weathering.
Yawn.
In reply to Snorkers: As far as I'm aware Mr Stevenson does on the odd occasion climb on Limestone...
In reply to mike kann:
As do you Mike. I've seen two cams rip on limestone whilst looking up, if you know what I mean. Plus a couple on belay placements that have gone under test, from sideways and above. That's sufficient for me that personally, given the choice, I'd use passive gear when possible. That's not to say that I don't carry cams (if it's not too steep then I carry everything!), especially given that they are often perfect in limestone pockets, but if I have the option, I'd put a hex or wire in every time.
As do you Mike. I've seen two cams rip on limestone whilst looking up, if you know what I mean. Plus a couple on belay placements that have gone under test, from sideways and above. That's sufficient for me that personally, given the choice, I'd use passive gear when possible. That's not to say that I don't carry cams (if it's not too steep then I carry everything!), especially given that they are often perfect in limestone pockets, but if I have the option, I'd put a hex or wire in every time.
I have a theory that the reason some people don't rate hexes is because they don't have the skills to place them properly.
In reply to LordFlashheart: I usually carry a couple of big ones when climbing on grit, even if I dont place them on route I find they are very useful for belay anchors
In reply to Snorkers: I understand what you are saying - personally I would take each placement on its own merits - some are rubbish, some are good. A good cam in Limestone is still better than a rubbish Hex in Limestone. There are no absolutes where protection is concerned. Surely if you are any good at placing pro, you will be able to assess the quality of your placements?
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
Yes it can be done (expecially if you have cams). I haven't carried a hex in years.
Yes it can be done (expecially if you have cams). I haven't carried a hex in years.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
I love hexes.....but iv only just started!! Theres something nice about knowing you have a massive hex thats going nowhere below you!!
Cams on the otherhand i cant place....and equally can never get out!!
Im sure i will change my mind tho.....
I love hexes.....but iv only just started!! Theres something nice about knowing you have a massive hex thats going nowhere below you!!
Cams on the otherhand i cant place....and equally can never get out!!
Im sure i will change my mind tho.....
In reply to Snorkers:
I climb predominantly on limestone. I can't remember the last time I racked hexes ... for some routes I don't rack cams either - just loads of small wires.
> 3) Climbing on limestone.
I climb predominantly on limestone. I can't remember the last time I racked hexes ... for some routes I don't rack cams either - just loads of small wires.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
You streamline your rack to suit circumstances. I carry a few hexes in winter, on limestone (crack walls are more often than not quite complex and if a cam shifts it may pop), on mountain routes and always bring my lucky hex 8 to the crag for grit (but only get it out for obvious crack that might need an extra hand sized placement).
You streamline your rack to suit circumstances. I carry a few hexes in winter, on limestone (crack walls are more often than not quite complex and if a cam shifts it may pop), on mountain routes and always bring my lucky hex 8 to the crag for grit (but only get it out for obvious crack that might need an extra hand sized placement).
In reply to Offwidth:
Exactly so. Look at the route and decide what is best. plenty of routes I've done this year where I've chosen to carry 4 hexes and no cams - and vice versa.
> (In reply to Jamie Bankhead)
>
> You streamline your rack to suit circumstances.
>
> You streamline your rack to suit circumstances.
Exactly so. Look at the route and decide what is best. plenty of routes I've done this year where I've chosen to carry 4 hexes and no cams - and vice versa.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
I really like them. Not carried hexes on rock routes in about 2 years now. Less clanky as well.
> (In reply to mike kann)
I'm also interested in the big (11-14) rocks on wire.I really like them. Not carried hexes on rock routes in about 2 years now. Less clanky as well.
In reply to Chris F and Jamie Bankhead:
I don't see the point in the big 11-14 wires when a similar sized hex on tape is a lot more versatile and will fit a bigger wider variety of cracks.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
Depends on the route and rock but in the summer above hard severe I tend to use just WC cams but for certain routes with big wide cracks such as double overhang at Huntly's or on the like of the Old Man of Hoy and similar soft sandstone routes at Cummingston I'll use big hexes as well for obvious reasons. (knackering grit in the cams and exploding flakes when loaded etc.)
I've recently re-threaded a few of my small old Camp and Rockcentric hexes with thin dyneema cord and have been using them in preference to rocks on wire when scrambling and easy climbing. They're so light and versatile compared to the wires and I just love them - the're great!
In winter though I only carry hexes as they are lighter, more versatile, can be bashed into icy cracks! Cams often don't work reliably when routes are in full wiinter condition though are no doubt essential for some snowless dry tooling test pieces that we'll never do!
In short horses for courses!!!
I don't see the point in the big 11-14 wires when a similar sized hex on tape is a lot more versatile and will fit a bigger wider variety of cracks.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
Depends on the route and rock but in the summer above hard severe I tend to use just WC cams but for certain routes with big wide cracks such as double overhang at Huntly's or on the like of the Old Man of Hoy and similar soft sandstone routes at Cummingston I'll use big hexes as well for obvious reasons. (knackering grit in the cams and exploding flakes when loaded etc.)
I've recently re-threaded a few of my small old Camp and Rockcentric hexes with thin dyneema cord and have been using them in preference to rocks on wire when scrambling and easy climbing. They're so light and versatile compared to the wires and I just love them - the're great!
In winter though I only carry hexes as they are lighter, more versatile, can be bashed into icy cracks! Cams often don't work reliably when routes are in full wiinter condition though are no doubt essential for some snowless dry tooling test pieces that we'll never do!
In short horses for courses!!!
In reply to Ron Walker:
You are correct that hexes are more versatile in placement but the large wires are easier to rack compactly and where they do fit, they are often easier to place, especially one handed or in deeper cracks.
I'm not a fan of the large WC Rocks because of their shape as I'd prefer a wider stubbier nut, but the concept has its merit.
> I don't see the point in the big 11-14 wires when a similar sized hex on tape is a lot more versatile and will fit a bigger wider variety of cracks.
You are correct that hexes are more versatile in placement but the large wires are easier to rack compactly and where they do fit, they are often easier to place, especially one handed or in deeper cracks.
I'm not a fan of the large WC Rocks because of their shape as I'd prefer a wider stubbier nut, but the concept has its merit.
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
The rethreaded hexes on thin dyneema cord are easy to rack too though not commecially available - they're also surprisingly lighter than the wired version and just stiff enough to place overhead in the smaller sizes!
(I've recently re-threaded a few of my small old Camp and Rockcentric hexes with thin dyneema cord and have been using them in preference to rocks on wire when scrambling and easy climbing. They're so light and versatile compared to the wires and easier to rack compared to hexes on tape.)
> (In reply to Ron Walker)
> [...]
>
> You are correct that hexes are more versatile in placement but the large wires are easier to rack compactly and where they do fit,
> [...]
>
> You are correct that hexes are more versatile in placement but the large wires are easier to rack compactly and where they do fit,
The rethreaded hexes on thin dyneema cord are easy to rack too though not commecially available - they're also surprisingly lighter than the wired version and just stiff enough to place overhead in the smaller sizes!
(I've recently re-threaded a few of my small old Camp and Rockcentric hexes with thin dyneema cord and have been using them in preference to rocks on wire when scrambling and easy climbing. They're so light and versatile compared to the wires and easier to rack compared to hexes on tape.)
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
For the majority of summer climbing cams and nuts are easily sufficient. My first rack consisted of 4 hexes and 4 slings. My current rack consists of 10 cams, 30ish nuts and 2 hexes. That serves me fine for Grit and Limestone, and the rare occasions I end up on other rock types.
The 2 hexes are sizes 8 and 9 of the old straight-sided type. I keep them with me because they are just right for jamming cracks and when they seat right I know I'm safe.
If noise is the only problem you have, rack them separately and double them back onto their clip.
For the majority of summer climbing cams and nuts are easily sufficient. My first rack consisted of 4 hexes and 4 slings. My current rack consists of 10 cams, 30ish nuts and 2 hexes. That serves me fine for Grit and Limestone, and the rare occasions I end up on other rock types.
The 2 hexes are sizes 8 and 9 of the old straight-sided type. I keep them with me because they are just right for jamming cracks and when they seat right I know I'm safe.
If noise is the only problem you have, rack them separately and double them back onto their clip.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead: Over the last few years I've also stopped taking my rockcentrics out with me on most weekend cragging trips. I've got cams from 0 to quite big (6 maybe? my two big ones are the great, cheap Rock Empire ones), and with a couple of set of nuts I can't say I miss them. Increasingly in Finland, even the trad routes have bolted lower offs so you don't even need to build a top belay like you do say on grit edges.
I've got a walnut 11, but can't say I use it much. Indeed I don't so often use even the 10. Hence never thought about getting the biggest nuts.
I do still take the rockcentrics on trips to the mountains though. Low weight extra gear for really long pitches. In Norway when most of the pitches are 40 mtrs plus and then you need gear for two belays as well, you can go through a pretty big rack! I like using hexes on belays so I can keep all my cams for stuffing in on the lead whilst scared and pumped.
I've got a walnut 11, but can't say I use it much. Indeed I don't so often use even the 10. Hence never thought about getting the biggest nuts.
I do still take the rockcentrics on trips to the mountains though. Low weight extra gear for really long pitches. In Norway when most of the pitches are 40 mtrs plus and then you need gear for two belays as well, you can go through a pretty big rack! I like using hexes on belays so I can keep all my cams for stuffing in on the lead whilst scared and pumped.
In reply to TobyA:
Twice this year I've had to get my belayer to lob me up some hexes as the cams I was carrying just weren't right for the crack available. OK its a minority of routes but sometimes only a hex will do ....
Twice this year I've had to get my belayer to lob me up some hexes as the cams I was carrying just weren't right for the crack available. OK its a minority of routes but sometimes only a hex will do ....
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
What he said. Much less of a fiddle. And yet to find a placement where a hex would have been better.
> You are correct that hexes are more versatile in placement but the large wires are easier to rack compactly and where they do fit, they are often easier to place, especially one handed or in deeper cracks.
What he said. Much less of a fiddle. And yet to find a placement where a hex would have been better.
In reply to GrahamD: On Black and Tans the other day, a couple of hexes went in a treat behind the groove on pitch 1, 1 at the bottom, 1 at the top. Both were bomber
In reply to TobyA:
I wouldn't want to use cams for belays unless I absolutely had to - so hexes are still useful, especially in that more broken rock you often see at the top of crags.
I wouldn't want to use cams for belays unless I absolutely had to - so hexes are still useful, especially in that more broken rock you often see at the top of crags.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
Here in Chile hardly anyone uses Hex's, just me really. They're seen as old fashioned.
However, what is better than a good Hex placement?
They're lighter too I imagine.
Here in Chile hardly anyone uses Hex's, just me really. They're seen as old fashioned.
However, what is better than a good Hex placement?
They're lighter too I imagine.
In reply to Henry Loveless:
A good threaded sling
> (In reply to Jamie Bankhead)
>
>
> However, what is better than a good Hex placement?
>
>
> However, what is better than a good Hex placement?
A good threaded sling
In reply to Jamie Bankhead: There's few peices of gear I trust more than a solid hex. It's true that they can be harder to place but you place them when the going is easier and save the cams for more desperate times. Another thing I love about hexes is the fact that they can be stacked together to protect wide cracks which are beyond the range of the average cam (unless you are rich and carry the super giant ones). A nifty little trick and quite easy one you've practiced it a few times (works better with the flat sided hexentrics).
Why use a giant nut (11+) instead of a hex? A hex is far more versatile with it's 3 placement options.
Why use a giant nut (11+) instead of a hex? A hex is far more versatile with it's 3 placement options.
In reply to howlingbaboon: What you said
I just hate taking hexes, so annoying to carry. Seems that a lot of people can do without, but then you winter and limestone. Just dont trust cams enough for the lime, took a fall the other day on a dodgy nut placement, which held, but the "bomber" cam placement below it walked out in the same moment. eeeek
In reply to howlingbaboon:
I would be interested to hear if you have actually taken a fall on stacked hexes.
(for anyone who doesn't know what this is: http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=32943)
> Another thing I love about hexes is the fact that they can be stacked together to protect wide cracks which are beyond the range of the average cam (unless you are rich and carry the super giant ones). A nifty little trick and quite easy one you've practiced it a few times (works better with the flat sided hexentrics).
I would be interested to hear if you have actually taken a fall on stacked hexes.
(for anyone who doesn't know what this is: http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=32943)
In reply to Jamie Bankhead: hex = good i love mine. (though i am a cowardly climber in the low grades)
In reply to TobyA: check this link out http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/site/main_articles/advanced_hex_placements/
In reply to partytroll:
Cheers, but if you read the title of the photo you might have twigged that I had already read that.
Cheers, but if you read the title of the photo you might have twigged that I had already read that.
In reply to howlingbaboon:
As an earlier poster said
"You are correct that hexes are more versatile in placement but the large wires are easier to rack compactly and where they do fit, they are often easier to place, especially one handed or in deeper cracks"
Why do you need to fiddle it into one of three placement options, when one of two will go in?
> Why use a giant nut (11+) instead of a hex? A hex is far more versatile with it's 3 placement options.
As an earlier poster said
"You are correct that hexes are more versatile in placement but the large wires are easier to rack compactly and where they do fit, they are often easier to place, especially one handed or in deeper cracks"
Why do you need to fiddle it into one of three placement options, when one of two will go in?
In reply to partytroll:
I noticed that he puts them in the same sort of "desperate" category as hex tricams and rps. I wouldn't want to fall on a pair.
If I was climbing anything where that sort of thing would be useful I would probably either invest in some monster cams or see if I can persuade one of my american colleagues to send me some big bros.
I noticed that he puts them in the same sort of "desperate" category as hex tricams and rps. I wouldn't want to fall on a pair.
If I was climbing anything where that sort of thing would be useful I would probably either invest in some monster cams or see if I can persuade one of my american colleagues to send me some big bros.
In reply to davidbeynon:
If you read J Carran's comments you will see that tricams are useful on the rock he climbs at times. We got them for sandy placements where cams would have ripped.
If you read J Carran's comments you will see that tricams are useful on the rock he climbs at times. We got them for sandy placements where cams would have ripped.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
I very rarely ever use hexes, they can sometimes backfire against a good witch or wizard. A sound transmutation is usually the better option, if thought out.
Rich
I very rarely ever use hexes, they can sometimes backfire against a good witch or wizard. A sound transmutation is usually the better option, if thought out.
Rich
In reply to sutty:
I rarely use tri-cams only on small pockets where they seem to go in ok never to come out again!
I rarely use tri-cams only on small pockets where they seem to go in ok never to come out again!
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
Hexes are light to carry and on mountain routes i.e in Scotland they fit where sometimes nothing else will. I also feel much more confident in a solid hex than anything else.
Hexes are light to carry and on mountain routes i.e in Scotland they fit where sometimes nothing else will. I also feel much more confident in a solid hex than anything else.
In reply to sutty:
Kirkpatrick isn't talking about actual tricams though, he's talking about improvising your own using a rockcentric.
> (In reply to davidbeynon)
>
> If you read J Carran's comments you will see that tricams are useful on the rock he climbs at times. We got them for sandy placements where cams would have ripped.
>
> If you read J Carran's comments you will see that tricams are useful on the rock he climbs at times. We got them for sandy placements where cams would have ripped.
Kirkpatrick isn't talking about actual tricams though, he's talking about improvising your own using a rockcentric.
In reply to davidbeynon: I second that! i love tricams, used them very successfully in wet pockets where nothing else would've worked and where there was no other pro on a big radius around.
In reply to TobyA: I confess I have't fallen on stacked hexes but I wouldn't have any worries (apart from my usual heathy fear of falling) about falling on them. I managed to do this about 8 times in the last year and each of the placements has been absolutly bomber and I have tugged the hell out of them to be sure. Never tried to stack 3 together, but will do at some point and will report back.
I too am a tricam lover, the wired variety. I think I actually use them more than my cams or my hexes but maybe that's because I always save the cams for a real time of need. I wonder if there is a connection between the fans of hexes and tricams.
I too am a tricam lover, the wired variety. I think I actually use them more than my cams or my hexes but maybe that's because I always save the cams for a real time of need. I wonder if there is a connection between the fans of hexes and tricams.
In reply to Chris F: Well the 1st 2 of these basic options are the same in both hexes and nuts (the 2 tapers). The 3rd option only involves rotating the hex by 1 side so that it cams in when loaded which is not particularly difficult or fiddly but very solid. Just an extra option really.
I love my Rockcentrics. Can place them in many ways, can even place them in camming mode. Don't slip, no problems with slick and mud on the rock. Whenever I can, I use Rockcentrics. I use Friends for equal (par) cracks or horizontal cracks.
In reply to howlingbaboon:
Thanks, I know, I used hexes on and off for about 15 years, so have a reasonable idea what they are capable of, I (personally) just prefer the Big Rocks after trying them for the last 2 years.
> (In reply to Chris F) Well the 1st 2 of these basic options are the same in both hexes and nuts (the 2 tapers). The 3rd option only involves rotating the hex by 1 side so that it cams in when loaded which is not particularly difficult or fiddly but very solid. Just an extra option really.
Thanks, I know, I used hexes on and off for about 15 years, so have a reasonable idea what they are capable of, I (personally) just prefer the Big Rocks after trying them for the last 2 years.
In reply to Chris F:
the thing which has held me back from buying big rocks is that to cover the same range of cracks they weigh more.
the thing which has held me back from buying big rocks is that to cover the same range of cracks they weigh more.
In reply to howlingbaboon:
but if you trust hexes more, isn't that "trust" wasted by only placing them on easy ground. If you trust cams less but only place them on desperate ground aren't you going to be questioning your placements when you need to trust them the most?
> (In reply to Jamie Bankhead) There's few peices of gear I trust more than a solid hex. It's true that they can be harder to place but you place them when the going is easier and save the cams for more desperate times.
but if you trust hexes more, isn't that "trust" wasted by only placing them on easy ground. If you trust cams less but only place them on desperate ground aren't you going to be questioning your placements when you need to trust them the most?
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Depends how big you want to go? They won't cover the full range that hexes do (up to "monster" size), but have never found myself lacking.
Again, this is a persnal preference, from trying both pretty comprehensively. Have you given the big rocks a decent go yet?
> (In reply to Chris F)
> the thing which has held me back from buying big rocks is that to cover the same range of cracks they weigh more.
> the thing which has held me back from buying big rocks is that to cover the same range of cracks they weigh more.
Depends how big you want to go? They won't cover the full range that hexes do (up to "monster" size), but have never found myself lacking.
Again, this is a persnal preference, from trying both pretty comprehensively. Have you given the big rocks a decent go yet?
In reply to Chris F:
Hexes are quite useful on Right Wall - a couple of #2s and an #7 from memory - the #7 is in the large crozzly pocket and the #2s are a bit lower down near the first ledge. Thin line slings are also quite useful
Enough beta!!
ALC
Hexes are quite useful on Right Wall - a couple of #2s and an #7 from memory - the #7 is in the large crozzly pocket and the #2s are a bit lower down near the first ledge. Thin line slings are also quite useful
Enough beta!!
ALC
In reply to Chris F:
well I used to own a number 11 nut does that count?
Like I said the only thing holding me back buying them is that they weigh more for covering the same range of cracks as compared to hexes.
I prefer nuts to hexes generally as wires are easier to place and retrieve than dyneema. However I don't like hexes on wires because:
- if you place them in the default orientation by holding the wire alone, it will not generally be in the correct orientation in the crack (ie have flat faces against the crack walls)
- the wire tends to disrupt the placement due to pressure from it touching the walls of the crack and is also more prone to dislodging due to rope movement.
well I used to own a number 11 nut does that count?
Like I said the only thing holding me back buying them is that they weigh more for covering the same range of cracks as compared to hexes.
I prefer nuts to hexes generally as wires are easier to place and retrieve than dyneema. However I don't like hexes on wires because:
- if you place them in the default orientation by holding the wire alone, it will not generally be in the correct orientation in the crack (ie have flat faces against the crack walls)
- the wire tends to disrupt the placement due to pressure from it touching the walls of the crack and is also more prone to dislodging due to rope movement.
In reply to a lakeland climber:
That's nice.
> (In reply to Chris F)
>
> Hexes are quite useful on Right Wall - a couple of #2s and an #7 from memory - the #7 is in the large crozzly pocket and the #2s are a bit lower down near the first ledge. Thin line slings are also quite useful
>
> Hexes are quite useful on Right Wall - a couple of #2s and an #7 from memory - the #7 is in the large crozzly pocket and the #2s are a bit lower down near the first ledge. Thin line slings are also quite useful
That's nice.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
Yes. I used to drag my set of cowbells up every route after I bought them and after about 500 routes or so and them rarely (if ever) being used consigned them to the store cupboard and they've not been seen since.
My normal rack is generally about 20-30 nuts, 15-20 cams, a couple of sliders and the usual quickdraws/slings/nutkey, etc.
Yes. I used to drag my set of cowbells up every route after I bought them and after about 500 routes or so and them rarely (if ever) being used consigned them to the store cupboard and they've not been seen since.
My normal rack is generally about 20-30 nuts, 15-20 cams, a couple of sliders and the usual quickdraws/slings/nutkey, etc.
In reply to John_Hat:
Are you serious? 20 cams and 30 nuts seems excessive.
> My normal rack is generally about 20-30 nuts, 15-20 cams, a couple of sliders and the usual quickdraws/slings/nutkey, etc.
Are you serious? 20 cams and 30 nuts seems excessive.
In reply to Chris F:
For the cams maybe, but 30 nuts is definitely not overkill for long pitches. Imagine a 40m pitch on limestone/gabbro/etc, gear every couple of metres. That's 20 nuts - which 20 do you need? Taking 30, placing 20, and having 10 left to sort out a belay doesn't seem unreasonable at all.
Personally I've got a set of rocks, a set of wallnuts, a set of peenuts, and a set of superlights. Which works out at 30ish, not including my krab full of of oddities which sometimes get taken just in case. Of those I'll take whatever seems most appropriate for the route.
And I mainly climb grit. A true multi-pitch fan may think 30 is on the low side.
> Are you serious? 20 cams and 30 nuts seems excessive.
For the cams maybe, but 30 nuts is definitely not overkill for long pitches. Imagine a 40m pitch on limestone/gabbro/etc, gear every couple of metres. That's 20 nuts - which 20 do you need? Taking 30, placing 20, and having 10 left to sort out a belay doesn't seem unreasonable at all.
Personally I've got a set of rocks, a set of wallnuts, a set of peenuts, and a set of superlights. Which works out at 30ish, not including my krab full of of oddities which sometimes get taken just in case. Of those I'll take whatever seems most appropriate for the route.
And I mainly climb grit. A true multi-pitch fan may think 30 is on the low side.
In reply to adam carless: I do 40 m pitches on limestone gabbro etc. I normally carry a rack of about 25 nuts tops (including the supernuts) and 10 friends max on multipitch routes. If the rock takes nuts better I will take less friends, and vice versa. On grit I normally carry a single set of WC rocks from 1-15 and a set of friends.
To me lugging that much protection seems excessive.
To me lugging that much protection seems excessive.
In reply to John_Hat:
I can understand the number of nuts as I often climb with that many on limestone, but that is a huge number of cams! No wonder you don't need hexes. I would normally carry 6 cams plus anywhere between 2-5 hexes on most routes.
I guess I see hexes as solid bits of gear that are lighter than cams. However, if people who don't carry hexes are carrying 10+ cams, that may explain why they don't need hexes.
> (In reply to Jamie Bankhead)
>
>
>
> My normal rack is generally about 20-30 nuts, 15-20 cams, a couple of sliders and the usual quickdraws/slings/nutkey, etc.
>
>
>
> My normal rack is generally about 20-30 nuts, 15-20 cams, a couple of sliders and the usual quickdraws/slings/nutkey, etc.
I can understand the number of nuts as I often climb with that many on limestone, but that is a huge number of cams! No wonder you don't need hexes. I would normally carry 6 cams plus anywhere between 2-5 hexes on most routes.
I guess I see hexes as solid bits of gear that are lighter than cams. However, if people who don't carry hexes are carrying 10+ cams, that may explain why they don't need hexes.
In reply to Chris F:
Double set of Rocks #1 - #9; 1 set RPs and a set of Hexes #1 - #7 gives 31 nuts so not too hard to get up to big numbers. Only carry about a dozen quickdraws though. Add half a dozen slings and maybe 4 - 6 Friends often less depending on route and you have more than enough kit for even the big pitches.
ALC
Double set of Rocks #1 - #9; 1 set RPs and a set of Hexes #1 - #7 gives 31 nuts so not too hard to get up to big numbers. Only carry about a dozen quickdraws though. Add half a dozen slings and maybe 4 - 6 Friends often less depending on route and you have more than enough kit for even the big pitches.
ALC
In reply to Monk:
It worries me sometimes when people (in general - not aimed at you) imply that hexes and cams are interchangeable. In plenty of cases they are not.
It worries me sometimes when people (in general - not aimed at you) imply that hexes and cams are interchangeable. In plenty of cases they are not.
In reply to GrahamD:
That is very true. My point was that a certain size cam will go in a good placement for a certain size hex but I fully agree the reverse isn't true. So cams can easily replace hexes completely, but where some people carry doubles in cam sizes others will carry a hex (lighter, not prone to walking but not as versatile as a cam).
It does depend on rock type though. I often don't carry any cams on limestone or mountain routes yet on grit I will carry all the cams I own. Nothing can replace cams on grit.
> (In reply to Monk)
>
> It worries me sometimes when people (in general - not aimed at you) imply that hexes and cams are interchangeable. In plenty of cases they are not.
>
> It worries me sometimes when people (in general - not aimed at you) imply that hexes and cams are interchangeable. In plenty of cases they are not.
That is very true. My point was that a certain size cam will go in a good placement for a certain size hex but I fully agree the reverse isn't true. So cams can easily replace hexes completely, but where some people carry doubles in cam sizes others will carry a hex (lighter, not prone to walking but not as versatile as a cam).
It does depend on rock type though. I often don't carry any cams on limestone or mountain routes yet on grit I will carry all the cams I own. Nothing can replace cams on grit.
In reply to Owen W-G:
I haven't carried a wire for a while now. Or Hex. Or Cam. I think I placed a couple of wires back in about 2006. Possibly. But they weren't mine.
Andy F
> (In reply to Jamie Bankhead)
>
> Yes it can be done (expecially if you have cams). I haven't carried a hex in years.
>
> Yes it can be done (expecially if you have cams). I haven't carried a hex in years.
I haven't carried a wire for a while now. Or Hex. Or Cam. I think I placed a couple of wires back in about 2006. Possibly. But they weren't mine.
Andy F
In reply to Monk:
that's simply not true there are plenty of hex placements a cam will not go in. Well unless you use the cams reverse cam stop functionality, which to be honest in most cases doesn't feel that secure to me.
that's simply not true there are plenty of hex placements a cam will not go in. Well unless you use the cams reverse cam stop functionality, which to be honest in most cases doesn't feel that secure to me.
In reply to adam carless:
Bimey riley - have you ever placed 20 runners on a route? You must be well pumped by the time you get to the top? Having said that, there are definately a contingent of climber for whome owning and placing gear is more excting that the actual climbing.
Whatever would climbers of the 50's have to say about folks placing 20 runners on a route?
> For the cams maybe, but 30 nuts is definitely not overkill for long pitches. Imagine a 40m pitch on limestone/gabbro/etc, gear every couple of metres. That's 20 nuts - which 20 do you need? Taking 30, placing 20, and having 10 left to sort out a belay doesn't seem unreasonable at all.
>
> Personally I've got a set of rocks, a set of wallnuts, a set of peenuts, and a set of superlights. Which works out at 30ish, not including my krab full of of oddities which sometimes get taken just in case. Of those I'll take whatever seems most appropriate for the route.
>
> And I mainly climb grit. A true multi-pitch fan may think 30 is on the low side.
>
> Personally I've got a set of rocks, a set of wallnuts, a set of peenuts, and a set of superlights. Which works out at 30ish, not including my krab full of of oddities which sometimes get taken just in case. Of those I'll take whatever seems most appropriate for the route.
>
> And I mainly climb grit. A true multi-pitch fan may think 30 is on the low side.
Bimey riley - have you ever placed 20 runners on a route? You must be well pumped by the time you get to the top? Having said that, there are definately a contingent of climber for whome owning and placing gear is more excting that the actual climbing.
Whatever would climbers of the 50's have to say about folks placing 20 runners on a route?
In reply to Monk:
>So cams can easily replace hexes completely
I can think of a couple of times this year where this certainly isn't true.
Any placement that flares significantly behind a constriction is not going to allow a cam to sit properly without walking backwards.
>So cams can easily replace hexes completely
I can think of a couple of times this year where this certainly isn't true.
Any placement that flares significantly behind a constriction is not going to allow a cam to sit properly without walking backwards.
In reply to Jon Dittman:
Why yes, main pitch of "The Grooves", Cyrn Las, I placed 21 on that, which I think is my record.
> Bimey riley - have you ever placed 20 runners on a route?
Why yes, main pitch of "The Grooves", Cyrn Las, I placed 21 on that, which I think is my record.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I am genuinely curious. What sort of placements do you mean?
In reply to GrahamD:
In which case, can't you place a larger friend behind the constriction? Or maybe ignore the constriction and place a cam higher or lower in the crack.
I take your point though.
I am a fan of hexes, but if I had to choose between hexes and cams, I would choose cams 90% of the time.
> (In reply to Monk)
> that's simply not true there are plenty of hex placements a cam will not go in. Well unless you use the cams reverse cam stop functionality, which to be honest in most cases doesn't feel that secure to me.
> that's simply not true there are plenty of hex placements a cam will not go in. Well unless you use the cams reverse cam stop functionality, which to be honest in most cases doesn't feel that secure to me.
I am genuinely curious. What sort of placements do you mean?
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to Monk)
>> >So cams can easily replace hexes completely
>> I can think of a couple of times this year where this certainly isn't true.
>> Any placement that flares significantly behind a constriction is not going to allow a cam to sit properly without walking backwards.
In which case, can't you place a larger friend behind the constriction? Or maybe ignore the constriction and place a cam higher or lower in the crack.
I take your point though.
I am a fan of hexes, but if I had to choose between hexes and cams, I would choose cams 90% of the time.
In reply to Jon Dittman:
Probably: 'wow, I remember when our ropes were only 100 feet long so we climbed everything in short pitches'....?
Or: 'I wish we'd had all that gear available in the 50's, I could have laced routes, and pushed my grade a lot higher' ?
> (In reply to adam carless)
>
> [...]
>
> Bimey riley - have you ever placed 20 runners on a route? You must be well pumped by the time you get to the top? Having said that, there are definately a contingent of climber for whome owning and placing gear is more excting that the actual climbing.
>
> Whatever would climbers of the 50's have to say about folks placing 20 runners on a route?
>
> [...]
>
> Bimey riley - have you ever placed 20 runners on a route? You must be well pumped by the time you get to the top? Having said that, there are definately a contingent of climber for whome owning and placing gear is more excting that the actual climbing.
>
> Whatever would climbers of the 50's have to say about folks placing 20 runners on a route?
Probably: 'wow, I remember when our ropes were only 100 feet long so we climbed everything in short pitches'....?
Or: 'I wish we'd had all that gear available in the 50's, I could have laced routes, and pushed my grade a lot higher' ?
In reply to Morgan Woods:
That's a good point, I'm really talking about those kind of terror moments when you need to get something in quick because you feel like your about to come off. I generally trust most of my gear (depending on the quality of the placement) but if I was to choose what to lob on it would be a solid hex. I guess I just like the simplicity of knowing that that big bit of metal will not fit through the smaller crack. I suppose my monkey brain prefers this simpicity to our fancy mechanical devices.
> but if you trust hexes more, isn't that "trust" wasted by only placing them on easy ground. If you trust cams less but only place them on desperate ground aren't you going to be questioning your placements when you need to trust them the most?
That's a good point, I'm really talking about those kind of terror moments when you need to get something in quick because you feel like your about to come off. I generally trust most of my gear (depending on the quality of the placement) but if I was to choose what to lob on it would be a solid hex. I guess I just like the simplicity of knowing that that big bit of metal will not fit through the smaller crack. I suppose my monkey brain prefers this simpicity to our fancy mechanical devices.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
When I'm climbing with someone who has them, it's surprising how often borrow hexes. There is something really reassuring about a well seated hex! So much so that I'm interested in these http://www.dmmclimbing.com/productsDetails.asp?pid=5&pid2=202. Has anybody seen the new DMM Torque Nuts in action? If you have, what do you reckon?
When I'm climbing with someone who has them, it's surprising how often borrow hexes. There is something really reassuring about a well seated hex! So much so that I'm interested in these http://www.dmmclimbing.com/productsDetails.asp?pid=5&pid2=202. Has anybody seen the new DMM Torque Nuts in action? If you have, what do you reckon?
All the arguments for using Hex's seem to laughably fall to pieces imo.
They are more versatile? Than cams? How so? There are so few places that a Hex is the only thing that would go in...but how many placements are there that ONLY take cams...tons! Heck, thats why it was such a big deal that cams were invented making so many more routes possible!
I see one comment regarding that people dont carry hex'es because they dont know how to place them. What utter rubbish! Hex's are what every leader learns to climb on! Cams dont make life easier, suddenly you have to worry about overcamming and undercamming.
Hex's make you sound like a lost cow that somehow found its way up a route.
Hex's are slow and pumpy to place
Overall, you're not going to miss having hex's on your rack. A decent set of cams and you'll never go back.
They are more versatile? Than cams? How so? There are so few places that a Hex is the only thing that would go in...but how many placements are there that ONLY take cams...tons! Heck, thats why it was such a big deal that cams were invented making so many more routes possible!
I see one comment regarding that people dont carry hex'es because they dont know how to place them. What utter rubbish! Hex's are what every leader learns to climb on! Cams dont make life easier, suddenly you have to worry about overcamming and undercamming.
Hex's make you sound like a lost cow that somehow found its way up a route.
Hex's are slow and pumpy to place
Overall, you're not going to miss having hex's on your rack. A decent set of cams and you'll never go back.
In reply to Silum:
IM poorly informed O ?
Since even the cam manufacturers acknowledge that there will be situations where placements don't provide sufficient friction for a cam to stay in place, your sweeping statement looks a little shaky in its supporting premise.
> All the arguments for using Hex's seem to laughably fall to pieces imo.
>
>
IM poorly informed O ?
Since even the cam manufacturers acknowledge that there will be situations where placements don't provide sufficient friction for a cam to stay in place, your sweeping statement looks a little shaky in its supporting premise.
In reply to Silum:
I can't believe anyone would be so dogmatic as to try and climb with exactly the same rack irrespective of what the rock presents.
Surely people decide what to carry after looking at the rock and take what is appropriate for their route ? Sometimes that DOES mean carrying hexes because they work better with the nature of the rock and are considerably easier and less pumpy to place than cams in that situation.
If your hexes make you sound like a herd of cows, you probably haven't worked out how to rack them best.
> Overall, you're not going to miss having hex's on your rack.
I can't believe anyone would be so dogmatic as to try and climb with exactly the same rack irrespective of what the rock presents.
Surely people decide what to carry after looking at the rock and take what is appropriate for their route ? Sometimes that DOES mean carrying hexes because they work better with the nature of the rock and are considerably easier and less pumpy to place than cams in that situation.
If your hexes make you sound like a herd of cows, you probably haven't worked out how to rack them best.
In reply to Jon Dittman:
Probably, on long pitches with twin ropes, I haven't counted though. Not very often I'll admit, but that's because I usually climb grit and place somewhere between 0 and 7ish pieces on a route, having probably taken 5-10 nuts and 5-10 cams up with me.
That's not hard, I can get pumped on a 6m boulder problem
There are also those who are rubbish at trusting the gear they place, so tend to add another one just in case.
yeah yeah, and using decent ropes, sticky shoes, chalk, guidebooks with pictures in them, comfortable harnesses, and other such sinful conveniences. My guess is they'd jump at the chance to use decent gear, but then there are a few of them still around, you could ask Sutty for example.
> Bimey riley - have you ever placed 20 runners on a route?
Probably, on long pitches with twin ropes, I haven't counted though. Not very often I'll admit, but that's because I usually climb grit and place somewhere between 0 and 7ish pieces on a route, having probably taken 5-10 nuts and 5-10 cams up with me.
> You must be well pumped by the time you get to the top?
That's not hard, I can get pumped on a 6m boulder problem
> Having said that, there are definately a contingent of climber for whome owning and placing gear is more excting that the actual climbing.
There are also those who are rubbish at trusting the gear they place, so tend to add another one just in case.
> Whatever would climbers of the 50's have to say about folks placing 20 runners on a route?
yeah yeah, and using decent ropes, sticky shoes, chalk, guidebooks with pictures in them, comfortable harnesses, and other such sinful conveniences. My guess is they'd jump at the chance to use decent gear, but then there are a few of them still around, you could ask Sutty for example.
In reply to adam carless:
I did place 25 runners on a route once, cloggy corner. My mate insisted I would need his rack as well as mine, at the time we carried about 10-12 runners for most long routes. I wanted rid of all the weight so placed it all, even stacking nuts at one place to use them up.
He never got me with two racks again.
A runner every 2 metres is a lot, unless there are dodgy ones that need backing up. If you need more you are climbing beyond your safe limits and are likely to fall off and test them.
I did place 25 runners on a route once, cloggy corner. My mate insisted I would need his rack as well as mine, at the time we carried about 10-12 runners for most long routes. I wanted rid of all the weight so placed it all, even stacking nuts at one place to use them up.
He never got me with two racks again.
A runner every 2 metres is a lot, unless there are dodgy ones that need backing up. If you need more you are climbing beyond your safe limits and are likely to fall off and test them.
In reply to Snorkers:
Its not a personal attack ...its MY view, I have no clue how well 'informed' you are. You're welcome to carry them up your route. But typically, If I am going to be taking a rack out to the crag, I make a decision to either take cams or hexes...cams are more versatile, not the other way around, so I chose cams. I assume you're referring to different rock types for friction, I suppose when I do climb certain types of smooth limestone, I may carry a couple hexes to supplement my cams...this was the situation I was referring to where hex's are useful.
>In reply to GrahamD:
I guess half the people at the crag dont know either then!
> (In reply to Silum)
> [...]
>
> IM poorly informed O ?
>
> Since even the cam manufacturers acknowledge that there will be situations where placements don't provide sufficient friction for a cam to stay in place, your sweeping statement looks a little shaky in its supporting premise.
> [...]
>
> IM poorly informed O ?
>
> Since even the cam manufacturers acknowledge that there will be situations where placements don't provide sufficient friction for a cam to stay in place, your sweeping statement looks a little shaky in its supporting premise.
Its not a personal attack ...its MY view, I have no clue how well 'informed' you are. You're welcome to carry them up your route. But typically, If I am going to be taking a rack out to the crag, I make a decision to either take cams or hexes...cams are more versatile, not the other way around, so I chose cams. I assume you're referring to different rock types for friction, I suppose when I do climb certain types of smooth limestone, I may carry a couple hexes to supplement my cams...this was the situation I was referring to where hex's are useful.
>In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to Silum)
>
>
> [...]
>
> I can't believe anyone would be so dogmatic as to try and climb with exactly the same rack irrespective of what the rock presents.
>
> Surely people decide what to carry after looking at the rock and take what is appropriate for their route ? Sometimes that DOES mean carrying hexes because they work better with the nature of the rock and are considerably easier and less pumpy to place than cams in that situation.
>
We're talking climbing with a slimmed down rack, not blindly taking on climbs without thinking about what gear you may need. Imagine you're about to undertake a long multipitch climb with a long walk in. You don't want to be carrying needless weight and you want a rack that's versatile. Like so many people in this thread can attest to, you can ditch the hex's and climb safely. Many in this thread havn't touched a hex in years simply because they havn't needed to. Their not being dogmatic over not using hex's, it seems those who tell us we NEED hex's are the ones being dogmatic. Hex's have their place, rarely are they the only fit...but its like any of the other 'perfect fits'... You dont see people arguing over ditching the sky hooks or the big bro's. >
>
> [...]
>
> I can't believe anyone would be so dogmatic as to try and climb with exactly the same rack irrespective of what the rock presents.
>
> Surely people decide what to carry after looking at the rock and take what is appropriate for their route ? Sometimes that DOES mean carrying hexes because they work better with the nature of the rock and are considerably easier and less pumpy to place than cams in that situation.
>
> If your hexes make you sound like a herd of cows, you probably haven't worked out how to rack them best.
I guess half the people at the crag dont know either then!
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
I usually carry three hexes but to stop the noise I put them inside three boxing gloves.
I usually carry three hexes but to stop the noise I put them inside three boxing gloves.
In reply to Silum:
If you were only willing to to carry a limited amount of gear and in the absence of any other knowledge of the route, I agree that friends, being the most versatile, are the things to carry. Actually, I would say its probably actually only a limited range of 1,2,3 Camalots on my case if weight really was that much of a problem. Where carrying some weight to the crag is not really an issue (most places in the UK)I'll carry cams (maybe not the 4 camalot - whilst I still had it) and hexes and then choose the best tool for the job once I can see the climb. Seems daft to reduce the range of tools available to you IMO.
Half the people you see wandering about with a harness full of hexes haven't really assesed what they might need properly and carry far too many. Ditto friends.
If you were only willing to to carry a limited amount of gear and in the absence of any other knowledge of the route, I agree that friends, being the most versatile, are the things to carry. Actually, I would say its probably actually only a limited range of 1,2,3 Camalots on my case if weight really was that much of a problem. Where carrying some weight to the crag is not really an issue (most places in the UK)I'll carry cams (maybe not the 4 camalot - whilst I still had it) and hexes and then choose the best tool for the job once I can see the climb. Seems daft to reduce the range of tools available to you IMO.
Half the people you see wandering about with a harness full of hexes haven't really assesed what they might need properly and carry far too many. Ditto friends.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead: I love hexes, particularly on limestone. Grit I tend to take a couple for belays and nothing else but last time I was at Millstone I actually ended up placing a fair few on lead that were bomber. A #5 hex saved me from very serious injury in Croatia when a hold broke on friable limestone, the hex was my only runner and the landing was a hideously steep boulder field. As I was falling you'd better belive I was glad I had that hex in rather than a cam. Cams are dependant on three things, the coefficient of static friction between the lobes and the rock, the camming angle and the force required to cause rock failure. Friable limestone is hardly reknown for either friction or structural integrity. Up to you, but I'd never write them off.
My friend managed to essentially throw a hex into a shallow but bomber placement at Millstone, I can tell you right now that a cam would not have gone in there other than in passive mode, and a cam in passive mode would not have stayed there as the leader moved past it.
My friend managed to essentially throw a hex into a shallow but bomber placement at Millstone, I can tell you right now that a cam would not have gone in there other than in passive mode, and a cam in passive mode would not have stayed there as the leader moved past it.
In reply to GrahamD:
I suppose it is a bit daft, until I put it into practice. When I first climbed, I only had hex's and nuts so it was a no issue, when I first got cams I hardly placed them, mainly cause I didn't trust them. Slowly but surely I found myself never 'needing' hex's (obviously I used them, but normally for the sake of 'using them'), they became dead weight. That's, im guessing, the same story as most the people on here. Eventually your just not going to carry them for that one perfect placement, we just rely on the cams that just seem to function better.
I can see why people carry hex's obviously, but I don't understand people disagreeing with those who don't. I'm leaving the hex's at home not because I'm dogmatic about these 'worthless hex's' or anything, they just seem superfluous.
> (In reply to Silum)
>
> If you were only willing to to carry a limited amount of gear and in the absence of any other knowledge of the route, I agree that friends, being the most versatile, are the things to carry. Actually, I would say its probably actually only a limited range of 1,2,3 Camalots on my case if weight really was that much of a problem. Where carrying some weight to the crag is not really an issue (most places in the UK)I'll carry cams (maybe not the 4 camalot - whilst I still had it) and hexes and then choose the best tool for the job once I can see the climb. Seems daft to reduce the range of tools available to you IMO.
>
> Half the people you see wandering about with a harness full of hexes haven't really assesed what they might need properly and carry far too many. Ditto friends.
>
> If you were only willing to to carry a limited amount of gear and in the absence of any other knowledge of the route, I agree that friends, being the most versatile, are the things to carry. Actually, I would say its probably actually only a limited range of 1,2,3 Camalots on my case if weight really was that much of a problem. Where carrying some weight to the crag is not really an issue (most places in the UK)I'll carry cams (maybe not the 4 camalot - whilst I still had it) and hexes and then choose the best tool for the job once I can see the climb. Seems daft to reduce the range of tools available to you IMO.
>
> Half the people you see wandering about with a harness full of hexes haven't really assesed what they might need properly and carry far too many. Ditto friends.
I suppose it is a bit daft, until I put it into practice. When I first climbed, I only had hex's and nuts so it was a no issue, when I first got cams I hardly placed them, mainly cause I didn't trust them. Slowly but surely I found myself never 'needing' hex's (obviously I used them, but normally for the sake of 'using them'), they became dead weight. That's, im guessing, the same story as most the people on here. Eventually your just not going to carry them for that one perfect placement, we just rely on the cams that just seem to function better.
I can see why people carry hex's obviously, but I don't understand people disagreeing with those who don't. I'm leaving the hex's at home not because I'm dogmatic about these 'worthless hex's' or anything, they just seem superfluous.
In reply to Silum:
Hey Silum, thanks for the reply. I was responding to what you said at that point - your subsequent post agrees with my way of thinking - carry whatever you think you'll need, and is appropriate for the rock type. Low friction rock, ice, exfoliating grit or granite, or flakes are all places where I'd plump for more hexes and wires and fewer cams.
That said, I pretty much always hang my Hex 6,7 and 8 somewhere on the back of my harness anyway; they don't weigh much compared to a few extra sips of water or an extra pee at the bottom of the route, and if I have to back off for some reason, then I'd much rather be lowering on a hex than a cam - and so would my wallet
> All the arguments for using Hex's seem to laughably fall to pieces imo.
Hey Silum, thanks for the reply. I was responding to what you said at that point - your subsequent post agrees with my way of thinking - carry whatever you think you'll need, and is appropriate for the rock type. Low friction rock, ice, exfoliating grit or granite, or flakes are all places where I'd plump for more hexes and wires and fewer cams.
That said, I pretty much always hang my Hex 6,7 and 8 somewhere on the back of my harness anyway; they don't weigh much compared to a few extra sips of water or an extra pee at the bottom of the route, and if I have to back off for some reason, then I'd much rather be lowering on a hex than a cam - and so would my wallet
In reply to sutty:
True, I was more thinking as an average, and that quite often with nuts I end up using two opposed nuts to make one decent placement, or using a backup nut to stop a main piece lifting/rotating. Which might just mean I'm rubbish at placing nuts.
Strangely, that is my aim for this year - stop being a wuss and occasionally climb near my limit (which means accepting I'm likely to take a few falls).
Another thought about numbers of nuts: Consider a set of peenuts (6), a set of superlights (6) and rocks 1-6. That's 18 pieces of gear on 3 clips. In total that weighs about half a kilo. I'm happy to accept the extra weight of carrying them all rather than decide from the floor what those skinny cracks 20m up will actually take.
> A runner every 2 metres is a lot, unless there are dodgy ones that need backing up.
True, I was more thinking as an average, and that quite often with nuts I end up using two opposed nuts to make one decent placement, or using a backup nut to stop a main piece lifting/rotating. Which might just mean I'm rubbish at placing nuts.
> If you need more you are climbing beyond your safe limits and are likely to fall off and test them.
Strangely, that is my aim for this year - stop being a wuss and occasionally climb near my limit (which means accepting I'm likely to take a few falls).
Another thought about numbers of nuts: Consider a set of peenuts (6), a set of superlights (6) and rocks 1-6. That's 18 pieces of gear on 3 clips. In total that weighs about half a kilo. I'm happy to accept the extra weight of carrying them all rather than decide from the floor what those skinny cracks 20m up will actually take.
In reply to Snorkers:
I always carry 2 black diamond 0.75 green cams :p For whatever strange reason, I rarely dont place both of them on a route. Weight isn't really the issue here (hex's are lighter than cams as a set after all)...but having a 'default' rack that works on 99% of routes (in my case; full set of cams, 6-10 draws, healthy set of nuts) makes life much easier.
I've read through a few of the comments in the this thread now, and I get the general feeling that those who are adament on hex's use and more importantly.. that we are wrong to dismiss them, are the same people who just dont have the same faith in cams as they do in hex's. So many comments yeild "nothing like a solid hex beneath you" or along those lines. Before someone else gets in a hissy fit, i'm not saying everyone's like that, afterall hex's have their use, but to me its fairly clear. Well, we're all welcome to choose our own rack, but I can speak from at least my own expeience and say that ditching hexes entirely is perfectly acceptable.
> That said, I pretty much always hang my Hex 6,7 and 8 somewhere on the back of my harness anyway; they don't weigh much compared to a few extra sips of water or an extra pee at the bottom of the route, and if I have to back off for some reason, then I'd much rather be lowering on a hex than a cam - and so would my wallet
I always carry 2 black diamond 0.75 green cams :p For whatever strange reason, I rarely dont place both of them on a route. Weight isn't really the issue here (hex's are lighter than cams as a set after all)...but having a 'default' rack that works on 99% of routes (in my case; full set of cams, 6-10 draws, healthy set of nuts) makes life much easier.
I've read through a few of the comments in the this thread now, and I get the general feeling that those who are adament on hex's use and more importantly.. that we are wrong to dismiss them, are the same people who just dont have the same faith in cams as they do in hex's. So many comments yeild "nothing like a solid hex beneath you" or along those lines. Before someone else gets in a hissy fit, i'm not saying everyone's like that, afterall hex's have their use, but to me its fairly clear. Well, we're all welcome to choose our own rack, but I can speak from at least my own expeience and say that ditching hexes entirely is perfectly acceptable.
In reply to Silum: hahaha!,,, yeah,, it always reminds me of the Alps and visions of the cute orphan Heidi from the bbc series years ago.... we are talking about good weather'ish climbing here,, in winter are hex's worth there weight in gold? and cams may as well be used to hammer them in if you loose an axe?.. i think there will always be a place for hex's ,, i have stacked um too,, only the once , but a well placed bit of gear .. well your happy and climbing.. agree?
In reply to TobyA: Had at little play around out on the crag this evening. Stacked 2 large hexes in a large crack and convinced my mate to test it out by hanging and bouncing on it with a sling (with a slackened toprope). The gear held fine. I know that this is not the same as actually falling on it but he wasn't going to be convinced into testing this. Further testing required.
I also managed to stack 3 hexes in an even wider crack and hung off it. It seemed suprisingly bomber (again I havn't tried simulating a proper fall though). The setup involved 2 upward facing smaller hexes (6&8) on either side and a 10 in the middle jammed between them pulling down and camming. I certainly wouldn't want to do this in a hurry, as it somewhat fiddly requiring 2 hands but not a hard as it sounds. Just shows what option there are. Partytroll will no doubt be along with photos, cheers for a good evening mate.
Next step, 4 hexes, and then the world....... (evil laugh)
Note: this works better with the straight sides of the old hexentric style.
I also managed to stack 3 hexes in an even wider crack and hung off it. It seemed suprisingly bomber (again I havn't tried simulating a proper fall though). The setup involved 2 upward facing smaller hexes (6&8) on either side and a 10 in the middle jammed between them pulling down and camming. I certainly wouldn't want to do this in a hurry, as it somewhat fiddly requiring 2 hands but not a hard as it sounds. Just shows what option there are. Partytroll will no doubt be along with photos, cheers for a good evening mate.
Next step, 4 hexes, and then the world....... (evil laugh)
Note: this works better with the straight sides of the old hexentric style.
In reply to howlingbaboon:
I've always thought the stacking potential and reliability of hexes could be easily improved by designing some kind of ribbed interlocking grooves on them.
I agree the older angular hexes are a far better and more secure design compared the the new curved ones.
Just out interest I can easily find at least 5 totally different placements options in a vertical crack due to the tapers and the two different widths of camming placements of hexes. I could bring that up to at least 8 if I mirror the camming and wedge placements.
Hours spent at the foot of a crag in the pissing rain has it's plus points!
I've always thought the stacking potential and reliability of hexes could be easily improved by designing some kind of ribbed interlocking grooves on them.
I agree the older angular hexes are a far better and more secure design compared the the new curved ones.
Just out interest I can easily find at least 5 totally different placements options in a vertical crack due to the tapers and the two different widths of camming placements of hexes. I could bring that up to at least 8 if I mirror the camming and wedge placements.
Hours spent at the foot of a crag in the pissing rain has it's plus points!
It's all down to personal preference IMO. I think that the larger sized hexes are unbeatable for providing a wide range of large placement options and are probably one of the items of gear that I'd be least happy to leave behind. I also tend to be happier with simple gear with no moving parts to jam or fail.
As for the cowbell comments, I find it rather sad that younger climbers seem irritated by such a wonderful evocative sound, the jangling of hexes is far superior to the discordant clacking and grating of cams on a sunny summers day
As for the cowbell comments, I find it rather sad that younger climbers seem irritated by such a wonderful evocative sound, the jangling of hexes is far superior to the discordant clacking and grating of cams on a sunny summers day
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
Depends if you climb sea cliffs or not. What else can you use to beat the seagulls off with?
> Can it be done? I want to streamline my rack and cams would arguably be more versatile. And definately less noisy.
Depends if you climb sea cliffs or not. What else can you use to beat the seagulls off with?
In reply to Chris F:
All I will say is that I have often found places where Hex's are better, and even some Tricam placements where cams just dont work.
> (In reply to Mark Stevenson)
>
> [...]
>
> What he said. Much less of a fiddle. And yet to find a placement where a hex would have been better.
>
> [...]
>
> What he said. Much less of a fiddle. And yet to find a placement where a hex would have been better.
All I will say is that I have often found places where Hex's are better, and even some Tricam placements where cams just dont work.
In reply to Jon Dittman:
One day we pooled all our runners together and set off on Tigertrot a brilliant 30ft V Diff at Stoney to see how many runners we could get in it, we ran out at 18.
> (In reply to adam carless)
>
> [...]
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> Bimey riley - have you ever placed 20 runners on a route?
>
> [...]
>
> Bimey riley - have you ever placed 20 runners on a route?
One day we pooled all our runners together and set off on Tigertrot a brilliant 30ft V Diff at Stoney to see how many runners we could get in it, we ran out at 18.
In reply to Chris F: Definitely a hex or a moac is better than a cam just below the crux on Billy Whizz.
In reply to jamesboyle:
I thought I was a man of the world but I have never heard of anyone beating off a seagull before.
> What else can you use to beat the seagulls off with?
I thought I was a man of the world but I have never heard of anyone beating off a seagull before.
In reply to the real dr gav: Tut tut man. You haven't lived until you have given manual relief to a seabird.
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