UKC

I'd like to kind of conduct a small survey.

1. What kind/brand of Cams do you use?

2. Why do you use this brand/type? Loyalty, habit, cost, effectiveness etc

3. If you think a certain brand of Cam are better than the rest, state why

4. If you think a certain brand of Cam are poor choices/you've had a bad experience, state why

Please don't defer from answering the questions asked, or cross question other peoples answers

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
IMO DMM are the best value, very good camming device for bargain prices if you look around. Solidly made, never let me down
Like a lot of people,I think Camalots are the best, but are way too expensive.
R+R own make, cheap flimsy rubbish. Had a look at same strange eastern European things a while back, not sure which was worse

In reply to Cragrat Rich: I like to keep them mixed and varied, I even like the old heavy ridged cams in certain situations.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

1. Wild Country Friends & BD Camalots

2. WC were the first cams I used, got used to them, stuck with them, only own one BD Camalot

3. BD Camalot. Widier range of placements, more stable.

4. None

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
>
Wild Country,HB,Camalots,Clog

Fairly random untill I started buying Camalots

>
Camalots. Very stable; inspire confidence; stronger springs mean they don't walk as much.

>
>
Clog cams wires seem to get buggered very quickly.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

Black Diamond


Theyre more solid-feeling and better-made.

As above


No bad experiences as such. When I was a student I had a set of rock empire cams and a couple ofWC frinds in the bigger sizes. they were identical except he RE's werent anodised (I got my RE's from the Czech republic by the way). they were fine but wore out (started stickign a lot and the wires got frayed and bent) in a relatively short period of time (this incldues teh WC's). Since I got a job and could afford them, Ive had a full set of BDs. Theyre much better IMHO.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

1: 50/50 between DMM 4cu's (couple of 3cu's)and WC cams.
2: Great quality and price
3: I find the DMM ones are great, easy to place, nice and light and as long as you align them with potential fall line then they are grand.
4: No real objections,just tried camalots for the first time at the weekend, found them a bit head heavy and not as nice to place as dmm or wc's.

horses for courses.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

1. WC/made by WC flexis

2. Used to be cheap at Outside, R&R cams also cheap, acquired 5x freebies just when I was almost ready to switch to camalots. Not the best, but nothing wrong with them and have never been able to afford/justify wholesale switch to camalots. In short, habit.

3. Camalots. They are sex.

4. They're all good as long as you extend them!

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

Mixed. CCH, DMM, WC, BD
Because I have them. Generally I bought the best (a subjective thing) at each size.
Different brands are better in different size ranges, usually due to specific design features and material selection.
Companies producing out-dated designs under licence are at an obvious feature/cosmetic disadvantage.

jk

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

Camalot C4s in most sizes and Metolius Master Cams at the smaller end.


Camalots because they're simply nicer to handle than anything else. Master Cams because a tempting four-for-three deal was enough to sway me from very pricey C3s when looking to go below my 0.3 C4.


Camalots, because they handle so nicely and feel so good.


Don't know what they were, but recently climbed with someone whose double-stemmed cams had tiny hard trigger loops instead of bars and found those awkward and poorly thought out.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

BD Camalots from .4 and up and CCH Aliens (only blue and green for smaller placements)


Aliens because they seem to fit where no other cam does and Camalots because they are the cadillac of cams!


C4's place better, feel really secure when you place them and come in an assortment of delightfully bright colors.


no experience but Aliens seem to be getting a bad rep in terms of QC and generally being a bit dodgy. still their doesn't seem to be much else on the market that fits in the little notches that Aliens seem to.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:


oh go on then!

Friends 'cos my climbing partner bought 1,2,3 and I got 0.5,1.5,2.5. He then dicked off to America, but by that time i'd bought: The Kong cams becuase a mate had gotten hold of a job lot and sold me 8 for €100. They're all right like.
Camalots, becuase everyone says so. Would put WC, DMM, Metolius etc as all good premium brands too, but if I was buying again it would be Camalots.

The Kong (Rock empire) ones are prone to twisting over when placing them in the large sizes, as the cams are heavy but the stem is long and very flexible. They are great in the small sizes (<1) though- v narrow heads so fit narrow placements.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

1. What kind/brand of Cams do you use?

Black Diamond Camalot C3 and C4s.

2. Why do you use this brand/type? Loyalty, habit, cost, effectiveness etc

C3s fit where few other cams will, C4s have better range, ergonomics and feel than any other cam.

3. If you think a certain brand of Cam are better than the rest, state why

Black Diamond for the reasons stated above. Though if they ever get made, I'd love to try Totem Cams.

4. If you think a certain brand of Cam are poor choices/you've had a bad experience, state why

I've used tech friends, master cams and supercams in addition and think they're all good pieces, just not as good as Camalots. No bad experiences with cams yet.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
DMM.

I like DMM gear as it is made in the UK and is always of high quality. DMM 4CUs are also lighter than other models (an important consideration for winter climbing and Alpinism) and they just feel better to me. I like the double-stemmed design as it is easier to use with big mitts on. They are also slightly cheaper, so it's win-win all round.

Very limited experience of other cams. Wild Country ones seem very well-made but I prefer my DMMs for the reasons stated above.

Not qualified to answer / no opinion. Certainly no bad experiences.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

BD Camalot, Aliens

Because they are slick & effective, better than previous stuff i brought

Because they are well made and smooth.

HB coz when you pulled the trigger they used the stem used to bend. Buy cheap - buy twice!

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
dmm & black diamond
DMM cost and service
Black diamond, quality action

In reply to Cragrat Rich:


Friends and aliens mostly; have also used Metolius, DMM, Camalots enough to have formed an opinion about them.


Friends are best compromise of weight, flexibility and holding power. Had them for a while and no reason to replace. Only thing I would change about them would be to add a wide thumb loop and double sling. Would buy again or possibly Rock Empire Durangos (which has a double sling but is otherwise very similar).


They are all pretty good but see above.


C4 Camalots: too heavy, unstable in larger sizes compared with Friends, the double axle makes them more likely to walk, the "smooth" action that everyone raves about feels nice in the shop but makes no difference to ease of use and is mostly due to a weaker spring which increases their tendency to walk. Typically chosen by gear freaks and thus over represented in surveys such as this.

Metolius powercam: light but great tendency to walk.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

In reply to flaneur:

Not cross-questioning here, but expressing astonishment about *everything* in that paragraph!

In reply to Cragrat Rich:


W/C Tech Friends, Ocean Pacific Link Cams, Metolius Supercams

W/C:My first cams but wouldn't use anything else on grit. Link Cams are the best for reassurance on Limestone that I have seen by a long way (though they are rather heavy). Supercams have always given me solid re- assuring placements.

Wild Country Tech Friends: Top quality and ease of use. Single stems are always better than double.

Any cheaper Cams if youre the kind of person that thinks you get what you pay for: Any cam will do the job, but do you really want to fork out for a new set when you find there are ones out there that do it better?

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
Generally wild country friends (flexi up to 2.5, rigid above), but also use Camalots, tricams and HB's
I have always been happy with the way friends work and are at reasonable price, camalots when the price is right (small sizes were cheaper than Aiens) other brands were either cheap or crag swag.
Think most do more or less the same thing, and unless you need a speciffic placement it's all down to personal preferance.
None I can think off - they all sink when dropped in water!

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
Rockrun own brand (WC I believe), C4's, czech ones in order of quantity, most first. (have tricams etc too)
What worked for my budget at the time/ deals on offer. Money.


Some have a better quality feel eg camalots, some don't work so smoothly eg the old rock run ones - does this make others better though?
Weight and range can be cited, but better as a piece of pro when placed? not so sure if there is much difference, more the rock placement I think, also don't have extensive product experience to answer fully.
Tricams are great when they fit that place that nothing else does!

No, no bad experiences - never fell on a cam that hasn't held, not fallen on cams much either as I prefer other gear in my head.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

1) WC Zeroes & Friends up to 1.5, BD Camalots above that, although with a guest Metolius Power Cam.

2) Zeroes are the best small cams, Friends are great in the mid ranges, and Camalot sizes 1 and upwards are brilliant for their extra range.

3) Different brands are good at different things, it's facile to say brand x is better than brand y.

4) See 3)

In reply to Cragrat Rich: I have bd c4s 0.4 to 3 and have enjoyed using them so far. Not experinced enough to answer the other questions.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

1. I own & use DMM, but have used climbing partners Camalots & WC

2. Bought DMM because having small hands I find the trigger bar easier to use than other cams, extendable sling is useful & cost compared to other brands.

3. Probably WC, the original & still the best??

4. Have had a bad experience with any cam i've used.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

1. Camp Tricams
2. Feel more secure, know when you've got a good placement, more options in placement
3. See above
4. I don't like traditional Friends and cams, as it's sometimes hard to tell when they're well placed. A friend has decked when one failed, also see "Committed" and the Meshuga attempt...

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
I'd like to kind of conduct a small survey.
1. What kind/brand of Cams do you use?
2. Why do you use this brand/type? Loyalty, habit, cost, effectiveness etc
3. If you think a certain brand of Cam are better than the rest, state why
4. If you think a certain brand of Cam are poor choices/you've had a bad experience, state why
Please don't defer from answering the questions asked, or cross question other peoples answers

1. Wild Country Tech Freinds
2. Loyalty and they work well in horizontal brakes
3. Black Diamond Camalot's are the daddies, hudge camming range
4. I don't like forged freind's

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

Currently BD C3s and C4s (prevoiusly DMM 4cus, WC Friends and Zeros - all stolen)


Had the opportunity to start my rack again so went for Camalots as they were my favourite of all my old cams (Reasons below) and I could get them for the same money as the other brands


BD Camalots
C4 - Good range, fell solid and inspire confidence, no longer a weight penalty, strong spring, easy to use even with gloves on.
C3 - Goes where other cams won't, felt more sturdy than my old zeros (seemed to get knackered quickly), pretty much end up using one on every route I do, especially in Wales and the Lakes.

The only thing I would like to see changed on Camalots is a double sling as per the DMM cams.


Not used any bad cams, but have only used cams from established brands.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
BD camelots, DMM 4CUs, Friends, R+R...
All except BD on basis of cost, as soon as could afford BD bought them
BD - range!
wires on R+Rs broke quite quickly, could have been my packing though. I have other R+Rs that I'm still using 8 years later and still work perfectly...

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

Wild Country

I have been climbing long enough for them to be the only brand widely available in the UK when I started. They seem to work well, limited experience with other brands.


Limited experience of other brands, I am happy with what I have got.

Happy with the two brands I have used. Wild Country and Black Diamond.

In reply to The New NickB:

I should add, mainly Flexi Friends these days, but still use the odd rigid stem Friend, placed one last week.

Black Diamond Camalots.


Wide camming range, beautifully engineered, just feel right in the hand.


Black Diamond for the reasons above.


No bad experiences.

1. What kind/brand of Cams do you use?
WC Tech Friends (primarily), Aliens, Metolius, small camalot.

2. Why do you use this brand/type? Loyalty, habit, cost, effectiveness etc
WC Tech Friends - 1st cams I used & got used to their ranges. Also very wide & stable.
Aliens - seat like nothing else I've used - always inspire confidence.

3. If you think a certain brand of Cam are better than the rest, state why
Aliens are my favourite, but their recent history bothers me a bit.

4. If you think a certain brand of Cam are poor choices/you've had a bad experience, state why
Metolius - doesn't seem to seat well and just walks all over the place, on grit & limestone. Needs a really good placement, and that's not when I use cams.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
1.Wild country Technical friends
2.good VFM, bought singles with free krab
3.no experience of other brands, started rack with WC as the original maker
4.only cams i would suggest are poor choice are non UK ebay items normally from ukraine.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

so.. any specific reason for this question CR?

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

Aliens and Friends mostly


aliens - narrow profile excelelnt for peg scars. friends, just 'cos I got them before the others came along


Like the expansion range of Cmalots and the narrow heads of aliens (but see below)


Don't like the weight of camalots or the fact that they seem (to me) to hold less well in flared placements (due to the camming angle?)


J

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
1. I use wild country, dmm and black diamond
2. i use these brands as i've just picked them up cheap. but i do have a brand loyalty to DMM because its local and i thikn they're products do a great job
3.i think black diamond cams are the best because they have a super smooth camming action that you dont have to struggle with unlike other cams (dmm can be a nuisence at times)
4.Wild country freinds are my pet peeve. the fact you need to put your thumb very accurately on the end to place them makes them a pain.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
Mostly BD camalots (mixture of C4, pre-C4 and the old twin-stem ones). Also a couple of tech Friends and a couple of small Aliens.

Habit, prolly, more than anything.

C4s are certainly very nice, especially the bigger ones.

No bad experiences, happily, other than the odd struggle to retrieve a badly placed cam. (Never lost one yet.)

Why the survey?

In reply to Cragrat Rich: I have only been trad climbing outdoors for a couple of years, my wife for a lot longer. All her gear was old so we replaced the lot. When it came to cams we decided on camelots as the build quality is superb,also my wife has arthritis in her hands and found the action of the camelots the easiest. We have never had regrets with this choice

Personally i use camalot 4CUs.
Although they are pretty heavy and far from cheap in my experience the double axle design give a far wider range than other cams. I think their design is more ergonomical and easy to use than some others.

In reply to graycj:

I think that DMM could be about to make this poll a bit redundant with the new Dragon cams...

http://dmmclimbing.com/news.asp?nid=216&ngroup=1

Regards

Simon

DMM

In reply to Simon marsh

Hmmm , now where have i seen this design before?

They will have to leap of my harness and place themselves for me to replace my Camalots.

regards

steve

In reply to Cragrat Rich: Come on give us more info and a video. When is the proposed release date. These look cool.

In reply to Simon Marsh: Come on give us more info and a video. When is the proposed release date. These look cool.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

Always used Friends, but recently got hold of some Metoliuos TCUs (superb) and some Camalots (lovely action but heavy).

Chris

In reply to Simon Marsh:

Interesting! First company to take advantage of BD's twin-axle patent expiring?

Good that they are a single-stem / double loop arrangement. At 10-15% lighter than Camalots they will still be a little on the heavy side. Are you keeping on the 4CU in your range?

I'm interested to see if you go for a stiff spring (functions better) or fold to marketing pressure and have a soft spring like BD.

How small do they go? Any plans for a really small cam, an Alien beater with DMM manufacturing reliability?

How much?

In reply to flaneur:

The springs are stiff - so the cams don't pull back as lightly as the BD units, but the higher spring pressure and 13.75 cam angle maximises their holding potential in marginal placements.

The 4CUs are staying in the range.

Regards

Simon

In reply to flaneur:

Hmmm, yes, quite...

Camalot 1, 30.2–52.1mm, 134g (-10% = 121g, -15% = 114g)
Friend 2.5, 33–55mm, 122g
DMM 4CU 2.5, 33–55mm, 123g

Camalot 2, 37.2–64.9mm, 158g (-10% = 142g, -15% = 134g)
Friend 3, 43–66mm, 155g
DMM 4CU 3, 43–66mm, 151g

Camalot 3, 50.7–87.9mm, 201g (-10% = 181g, -15% = 171g)
Friend 3.5, 51–82mm, 178g
DMM 4CU 3.5, 51–82mm, 185g

In reply to Simon Marsh:



Thanks Simon, that all sounds good.

You're not going to comment on small cams?

In reply to simon marsh

come on now , its not a new product is it...

Dont get me wrong, i realy like a lot of dmm s stuff. but not the cams, yes, very light but more prone to walking than any cam ive ever used, so now im supposed to be impressed with a total ripoff of a camalot?

What next, a realy good BD style 3cu?......

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

1. What kind/brand of Cams do you use?
Wild Country tech friends

2. Why do you use this brand/type? Loyalty, habit, cost, effectiveness etc
thought these were the original and best when putting a rack together

3. If you think a certain brand of Cam are better than the rest, state why
Black Diamond friends are now my preferred cam and i now slightly resent my WC Friends. this is posisbly totally unfair but i find BD cams way more inspiring and easier to use:
- greater camming range
- less likelihood of walking
- can be used in a wider range of placements
- a far more stable looking placement

4. If you think a certain brand of Cam are poor choices/you've had a bad experience, state why
no bad experiences per se with WC friends, ive fallen properly onto a 00 and it was good. my negativity is simply because WC doesnt seem to perform as well as BD for the reasons given under #3

i havent bought cams in a few years and any future purchase is very likely to be BD cams.

In reply to peak pie eater: Caming angle the same as Friends should mean better holding power than Camalots though surely?

In reply to d berry

I dont know a great deal about camming angle, however ive never had a camalot rip even in poor placements

Im not aware of anyone i know having had a cam rip due to its camming angle being slightly poorer (im sure someone on here will give me some examples of this happening)

Im sure the dragon cam will be a great piece of kit, but i doubt it will be anything more than a minute improvement on curent designs

As the diferrences in gear design are so small these days manufacturers have to promote small technical differences to make there product seem better than someone elses, i think this is a classic case.

In reply to Simon Marsh: And with that, my hopes of DMM doing something innovative such as bringing these: http://www.totemcams.com/ to the market die. I'm sure you'll make a lighter, cooler-looking Camalot C4 but I thought you were a company that prided yourselves on innovation. Even in these photos it's clear right down to the colours that you are essentially making your own version of 0.5-4 in Camalots. Now the Camalots are a good design, the best I'd say, but nobody is going to jump up and replace their Camalots for a 50g saving. Totem cams on the other hand, there is a design that could revolutionise the SLCD and rightly take its place as the king of all SLCD designs. I'm afraid what we punters want is innovation. Make an alien-slayer or a cam that can do stable 2-cam placements, a cam that doesn't rip in down-flaring cracks, a cam that holds consistently in limestone, a cam with a super-narrow head but still good holding power, those are the gaps in the market that are crying out to be filled.

In reply to AlistairB:

I always find it strange when people slag you down for simply trying to move thing on - especially when they apparently show no real understanding of the concepts, theory and detail of what is involved.

There are two obvious, but seperate areas for climbing manufacturers to go at - micro cams and mainstream cams. This is simply because no one cam design works well across all size ranges.

On micro cams I am sure that every manufacturer wants to have a unit that performs as well as Aliens, but has a better build quality. C3's, Master Cams have both tried, but neither is really as good as a well built Alien. The Totem cams look really good, but there has been no progress here for several years - I swapped emails with these guys a couple of years ago, but they wanted to go it alone. I truly hope they manage to bring it to market, because it should really move micro cam design onwards.

On mainstream cams climbers value range so we decided to see what we could do with dual and triple axle designs. DMM actually have a patent on a rather nice triple axle design, but the construction costs are prohibitive.

So we decided to play around with the double axle design and work out the weaknesses - weight, cam angle, stems twisting and lack of a doubled sling. Hence the Dragon cam.

People won't really be able to decide if they are better or worse than Camalots until they have played with them, but we are excited by them.

Hot forged, three dimensional cam lobes - nobody else can do this except DMM. Over-moulded duplex stem that flexes evenly in all directions - a first. An extendable dyneema sling that acheives 12kN/14kN - another DMM innovation. Cam material, cam angle and spring tensions all chosen to maximise holding power in those flared placements you mention - all there on the Dragons without compromise.

Don't forget that people poured scorn on the Revolver and I-beam construction carabiners when they first appeared and now everybody has copied or tried to copy the concept.

Simon Marsh

DMM

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

I don't know if spring tension could have something to do with stopping it being a factor, but some people on here have a distrust or a fear of the inabillity of the stems on Camalots to be able to pivot around the two axles, because of how it might dsturb how well seated the individual cams are in a crack. It might just have been caused by canny marketing by Wild Country though and them saying it's a good thing that thier stems can pivot around the one axle on thier friends and leave the placement undisturbed, which could make people look at Camalots and start wondering about them.

I've only used Clog and Rock + Run and Outside's (for a short while) own brand Vector cams made by Wild country though, and the springs seem to get tangled up a little bit, it doens't affect how they place too much though, you can still retract and expand the cams okay, though i've never fallen on them.

Cost was a big factor in buying them btw. Apologies for not answering your questions exactly how they were set out, this post sort of evolved by itself. ()

Cheers
Tim

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

Clog/R+R/Outside-Vector


Cheapness and being influenced at the time by them being made by WC, who had and still have a good reputation for gear.


I guess all brands have thier good and bad points. The ability to be able to move the cams from side to side on the axles of HB was ment to be helpfull in cleaning them, and I guess the same goes for Clog and R+R and WC and DMM(?) cams as well. This isn't as possible with Metolius Cams though, but they have a smaller cam angle than UK friends/cams and Camalots which give's them more holding power, which could arguably be the most inportant thing to think about in a friend/cam if all of the friends/cams do everything else okay.


The camming angle on Rock Empire cams is 13.8 on thier big sizes according to an e-mail I got from them after asking what it was, and 'approaching' 13.8 on thier smaller cams IIRC (which I suppose mean's the angle is a little bit bigger than 13.8, or I guess they'd have told me if it was smaller because this would give more holding power [but less range]), which isn't quite as good as UK or Metolius cams, I guess I wouldn't buy their cams just because it might be in the back of my mind if I thought I was going to fall off onto one, but it mightn't make any difference appart from in marginal placement which could hopefully be avoided by planning ahead.

Double or single stems might make more difference than camming angle in a lot of situations I guess.

Cheers
Tim

In reply to Simon Marsh:

Just been watching their video (thanks to AlistairB's link) and have to say they look amazing!

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
1 any that are cheap when i need them
2 Cost
3 cost
4 all seem the same to me

In reply to Cragrat Rich:The camming angle of Metolius cams is 13.25 by the way.
Cheers
Tim

In reply to Simon Marsh:


The Rock Empire Flexi cams I bought in 2001/2002 have extendable dyneema sling rated 12kN (and finger loops too). Did DMM make it earlier? It might just be me not aware of it though as DMM cams were not sold in Hong Kong at the time.

In reply to Simon Marsh: It's not so much that I'm slagging you off, I'd be pretty convinced that these will be bettter than camalots, I guess I was just hoping for something a bit more innovative. For the record, I loved the concept of the revolver from the word go, stuck one on a trad draw and use it all the time. I had forgotten about the doubled sling yes, that's something I am excited to see, that's always been a great feature of yours which I wish Camalots had.

I'm a physicist (trainee anyway!) who chose physics over engineering largley out of resentment for the practical constraints engineering and production relaities impose on creativity so forgive me for being a dreamer sometimes. For the record I have a pretty good understanding of how these things work having given a presentation to my Uni tutorial group on the exact subject. The triple axle idea sounds fascinating, I do hate the way that so many ideas seem to fall by the wayside because of costing. I heard that with the patents up, the simple reason we haven't seen an Alien clone is that none of the big manufacturers can find a way of making them economically.

Out of interest, you cite the cam angle as a weakness of double axle designs, yet the range of your proposed set of six is exactly the same as the range of the 6 Camalots .5 - 4 which implies that you're using the same cam angle. Unfortunatley, I can't actually find that info for the Camalots, I'd be interested if you've changed the angle in favour of increased holding power and kept the same range though.

I heard recently that the Totem Cam people were looking for a manufacturing partner but would go it alone if that wouldn't work out. I'd be fascinated to see how the costings on those work out.

Sorry, I realised after that post that it was overly-critical, I'm a big fan of your work, I guess I just hoped for a revolution, but instead we just have a small step forward. I won't be replacing my Camalots any time soon but I'll nag my friend who is slowly building a rack to get some Dragons when they come out so we can compare . Truth be told I don't know what innovation I'm hoping for in cams but I think if I did, I'd be emailing the patent office rather than posting on UKC! If you ever bring out a triple axle cam, I'd be the first to try one purley out of curiosity . I assume the patent is still in the process of being dealt with as the only DMM patents I can find online concern karabiners. I'd love to see the design though if that's possible?

Sorry for the thread hijack Cragrat.

In reply to AlistairB:

14.5 degrees, according to this:
http://www.alpineexposures.com/pages/black-diamond-c4-camalot-review

In reply to deepsoup:

In which case, assuming all other variables to be constant, that gives the Dragons a ~ 5.7% increase in holding power vs a Camalot C4 (rigid body SLCD model, many assumptions, quote at own risk etc.) Interesting to see how that would translate practically. I'm intreigued to know how they've dropped the camming angle and kept the same overall range. Increased axle spacing? Or just less overlap between pieces? And then of course there's the material of the cam lobes, where the deformation modeling would kick in, you'd need a lot of data that isn't freely available to get any conclusion out of that though. Interesting project for any engineer out there, using Hertz's law etc. come up with a quantitative analysis for holding power of different camming angles and materials.

In reply to petestack:


Bang to rights! How do the 4CUs fit then? Must be on cost if they are heavier than the Dragons?


In reply to AlistairB:

A bit harsh. Cams are quite mature technology now, so improvements are likely to be evolutionary not revolutionary. Although not as 'sexy' or attractive to gear-freaks, I think there is a lot to be said in just looking at every factor in a design and trying to improve it, even a little bit and this seems to be DMM's approach. Most attempts to do something very different (Link cams) or even somewhat different (Metolius supercams) don't seem to be that popular, pointing to the strength of the original concept.

In reply to simon marsh

Id like to say for the record im not slagging you or DMM in general off

I just dont think these are a great leap forward

You mention other DMM products such as I beam crabs and the Revolver, both of these were inspired leaps forward in design and i parted with my cash pretty fast for both and still rate the Revolver as the best piece of gear for reducing drag since people started extending gear!

But i cant help agreeing with the person above who said the smaller Dragon cam looks completly identical to a camalot

If im wrong and the Dragon is an amazing leap forward i will be the first to rave about it on here and will no doubt wind up with a couple on my rack

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
Got a few, BD Camalots, CAMP, Rock Empire, CCH and WC (clog actually)
I have primarily BD camalots which is primarily about build quality (they feel very soli) and brand loyalty
Camalots are the best, followed closely by rock empire. Rock empire are incredibly cheap and their new ones are built just as well as camalots so their impossible to ignore.
>Not a big fan of WC at all. The larger sizes seem to walk, the flex stems feel ok, but often times i go to place them and see one pair of cams has swivelled backwards (essentially, they take ages to place). I just think that less thought has gone into them. CCH aliens are great too, primarily because they are the only sizes that fit!

In reply to Cragrat Rich: I use BD Camalots, they are thought to be the best in the circles I move in. I have not been climbing for long (2yrs+) but have borrowed cams before buying and found that my thumb slipped off the end of the stem sometimes when cold and / or wet, but with the loop on camalots your thumb is locked in place, so I bought them. I find them to be smooth in action and although I have not conciously noticed it in use, I suppose the greater range per cam must be an advantage. I have noticed that they seem to lock in place in the cracks nicely, but I have no experience to compare this with other brands.

In reply to peak pie eater:

I had two flexible friends rip out of little thor at Araps. Both 0.5. Was too busy shaking like a sh*tting dog to consider why, but I wouldnt have moved from them if I thought they were marginal placements.

I have just got a Rock Empire Robot 4, which is equal to a Friend 3. It has a nice action and is easy to place, so am thinking that 4CUs may be worth a go in next 2 sizes up.

I still have flexi friends from 0.5 to 3, with a Cassin, HB Flexi Fix, and 2 old HB fix with the independant triggers.

Dont want to mix up single stems with something like 4CUs through the rack, but only change once as I go up the size, to maintain some ease of use, if that makes sense.

In reply to Simon Marsh:


For all that people want revolution, it's a rare thing. The Dragon Cams I presume are emerging as a result of BD's patent expiring which is fair enough, time for everyone else to bring their ideas and knowledge to bear. So far as I'm aware BD went the twin axle route in the first place to dodge existing patents. Competition is no bad thing, it'll push further evolution.

Those Totem cams do however look like a minor revolution, the design is ingenious. I suspect the major problem is the flexible cable loop at the cam. Like you, I hope they do get brought market one way or the other.

I don't think anyone should be complaining that DMM now have a serious rival for the Camalot on features and price. I know where I'll be shopping for my mid range cams should mine get lost or damaged.

jk

1: DMM 4CUs. Thinking of getting some 3CUs at some point, too.

2: They're the lightest, the dual-stem design seems very stable and they have an almost entirely metal construction.

3: DMM, for the reasons above.

4: All the ones I've seen 'in the flesh' seem fine. I've no experience of the more esoteric brands, though...

In reply to MikeCheque:

I've used Friends, Quadcams, DMM 3cu and long Aliens.

I prefer Aliens because of the narrow head enablingeasy secure placements. The largest is just underut 2 1/2 friend and I then have the larger Quadcams above that.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

I love my yellow alien. Never fail to find a bomber placement, usually when you really want one, on a route.

Otherwise I've a full set of WC friends supplemented by a few extra bits of crag booty. The only piece I want replaced is the solid-stemmed no.2 which I plan to replace (one day) with a camalot bad boy.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

I'd like to kind of conduct a small survey.

1. BD Camalots, both old style and new. BD C3's. Rock&Run own brand friends. DMM 4CU's, DMM 3CU's

2. I started off with Old BD camalots, loved them, can't fault them really. Got a 4CU and 3CU to fill some gaps and they were cheap on V12outdoor. My sister bought me 4 R&R cheapos for a present. Recently got a new BD C4 and a new C3.

If I could have a full rack of new DB C4s, and C3s with DMM 4CUs to cover some in-between sizes I'd be happy with that. I love the fact C4s just fit and sit. They walk less, get stuck less and generally work damn well.

DMM 4CUs are light and nice to use, just lack a bit of range - the smaller increments between sizes is handy.

3. See 2.

4. R&R. They are cheap, and it shows. The work ok, but I find them awkward to use as they often get twisted and get stuck more often than other cams I've used.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:





Most confidence inspiring combination


Camalots seem to seat well in the larger sizes where their extra range is also useful. Small Friends work well. In either case I prefer single stems after moving away from U frame cams a while back


Any with a U frame. I used quadcams for a long time but broke one and bent another due to the loading you get in a fall when placed in shallow vertical cracks. Any with weak springs as the placement gets upset too easily

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
1) Broad mix:- DMM, WC Friends, Rock Empire, Camalot, and some Ukranian stuff I bough in Nepal

2) I think DMM are excellent value for a good product, so I tend to favour theirs, plus they're made in the UK.

3) As before, I like the DMM ones, but it's nice to have a mix, they're all a bit different.

4) Ukranian ones are of poor build quality, and the trigger wires have bust after 10 years, but one of them also saved my life - and at five for thirty quid, can't complain

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
1: a mix of Rock empire, Black Diamond, Aliens and WC zero's
2: originally cost so I brought the rock empires, then I used a friends BD's and was very impressed so I brought some.
3: BD cams have a great action and a massive camming range compared to some of its peers. They are flexible in all directions therefore can be safely placed in a variety of situations and I like the single stem action/design.
4: I've use the DMM 3 cam units a few times and they seemed to walk very easily and were incredibly ridged so I was concerned that if I fell on them they would be knackered by 1 fall.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:

1. Black Diamond Camalots, although I still have two rock empires.

2. Cos they're the best Err... big camming, feel sturdy.

3. See 2.

4. N/A.

In reply to Cragrat Rich:
1 - HB (both types), WC (zero and friend), BD
2 - Like to try a few designs out
3 & 4 - Not keen on HB quad cam, don't like double stem devices as not so flexible in vertical slots, also the way the trigger is wired often means some of the cams are reluctant to touch the camming surface in uneven placements, the flexi fix are pretty good narrow head on both types is an advantage in smaller sizes. WC devices are very nice and seem well sturdy, the friends are a little too rigid. Very hard to fault BD units flexible, sturdy big expansion range, get stuck much less than other designs, only down side I can see is the lobes are wider and the heads are wider meaning some placements in smaller sizes they do not fit.