UKC

Oft trotted out to folks floundering on some grit HVS on a bow-taught top-rope.

What about Joe 90 on his 50th attempt to link the moves on his 8b?

Dual standards?



Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs: yes, although it is easier for most to get to a HVS onsight level than climb 8b? Also, fewer people attempting 8b = less wear overall than many floundering on HVS?

In reply to MattG:

Joe 90 is still floundering on his 50th attempt though.

The grade is irrelevant except for elitism in the fact that Joe 90 can climb harder and therefore feels that he has the right to belittle mere mortals such as me.

I sence a flame war or a damb good argument about to unfold.

In reply to MattG: But what about the damage Joe 90 does to the crag environment by driving up in his car?

http://www.starshipmodeler.com/rv/dr_truck_truck7.jpg

In reply to The Lemming: Well, personally I'm not overly bothered so no war from me!

In reply to Chris Craggs: Leaving aside the perennial debate about the 'evils' of toproping, there is to me an interesting philosophical question embedded in your comparison, Chris - that is 'At what standard *should* we strive to climb at?'

Should we simply climb routes we *know* we can or know we ought to be able to do? Or should we strive to 'push our current limits' by attempting something beyond our present capabilities? Paradoxically, if we 'left everything till we were good enough' maybe we'd never get good enough?

hmmm

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Good enough - no, bollocks, I'll try and try and try till my fingers bleed, then I'll try some more... Projects are essential.

In reply to jon: Projects are essential - I agree. Maybe even The Impossible Project (the one deep down you know you'll never do and with every advancing year it becomes a taunting reminder of the insurmountable gulf between imagination/desire and reality).

In reply to Marc C:

Indeed. It becomes even more important when you can see the end approaching. That, by the way, is a serious comment.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Do bows teach?

In reply to Chris Craggs:
It depends (of course) but if it is a classic HVS then it is probably fairly battered and polished already so numerous further attempts on a TR at the crux will cause further damage. On a busy crag, there are possibly others wanting to lead it. E.g. I would not be happy if I'd psyched myself up to do The Sloth only to wait for an hour while someone on a TR messed about on the crux and then pulled off a hold. Both these are less likely on an 8b.

In reply to The Lemming:

We didn't start the flame war

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1907543

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I'm not all that bothered about someone having 50 goes on some 8b because I'm not very likely to be able to lead it.

However, people dogging mid-grade routes on top rope should really have some consideration for all the other climbers wanting to do the route - especially when it comes to classics.

Not dual standards. The situations are completely different.

In reply to BeccaSnowden:

I think what Chris is getting it, is "where do you draw the line"?
What's your idea of a mid-grade route? Some people might class E4 as mid-grade. Some E6.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

You evil man.;-P

In reply to BeccaSnowden:

They are unlikely to have 50 goes consecutively.

> However, people dogging mid-grade routes on top rope should really have some consideration for all the other climbers wanting to do the route - especially when it comes to classics.

So the difference is the popularity of the route?

Or is it that when you are on a route and there are others waiting you should limit your number of goes and your style of ascent?

My take is that whatever grade you choose to climb at and whatever route you choose to do, the style is up to me (top rope, onsight, dogging, red point, naked etc) and if I get there first I get first dibs. But.... if some asked nicely ..... and I was between goes..... that's fine, have at it.

As regards, "Leave it until you are good enough", again that is up to me, no one else.

Mick

In reply to Chris Craggs:
you do hear some crap spouted about how you shouldn't dog routes because the gear damages the rock. If this rule is to be followed then what is the point of having gear. If you know that you won't be stressing the gear in any way you can just solo it.
I've dogged a few routes, but i've always drawn the line after a few goes because by then I've worked out if i can or cant do the route and I've either finished it or backed off to give it another go when i'm stronger/better.
Regarding top roping, if they are top roping at least they aren't weighting gear placed on route and as long as they aren't on it all day then I haven't got a problem with it.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

>>> "Leave it until your good enough"

What, you mean posting on UKC and differentiating between "your" and "you're" ?!

You missed a golden opportunity to talk about "duel standards" though...

In reply to Pierre Maxted:

Actually I'd argue that the damage and hold removal were both much more likely on the 8b than the classic* HVS for the following reasons:

Hold removal: The classic HVS will have had long thousands of ascents, all the loose bits will have come off a generation ago, it's also (assuming Sloth) grit' and therefore fairly solid. The 8b may have had 2 or 3 ascents, perhaps 200 attempts and it's on limestone or slate (since that's pretty much all we bolt) so it'll shed holds quite naturally.

Damage: The classic HVS is already f****d, it's the nature of the thing, a little more polish isn't going to significantly change the difficulty. The 8b however will be on fresh rock, probably with insecure holds. Any polish will be noticeable.

jk

In reply to Chris Craggs:

and just who is your hypothetical climber applying these dual standards? I've never heard anything as small minded and stupid come from the mouths of the "Joe 90s" I climb with.

I have however heard such a thing many times from hair-shirted 'traditionalists' with a chip on their shoulders who genuinely believe they are better climbers than the Joe 90s because their 'pure' ethics retain some tawdry and ersatz mockery of 'adventure'. These are the same people who think that all sport climbers are jessies, despite most sport routes having much bigger runouts than they have ever faced, and the same people who deride boulderers for looking stupid in a beanie with no top, and have never seriously considered the fashion implications of the 'ron hills, jumper and helmet' look.

So, no dual standards. Just people who are cool (and right), and people who are idiots (and wrong).

In reply to Chris Craggs:
Troll

In reply to J1234:

I don't think it's a troll.

And I don't think it's double standards.

It's about what is the 'norm'. Most people who climb HVS can climb HVs without dogging it to death. Most people who climb 8b do so redpointing, therefore with practice.

So it's more a question of whether you should climb something outside of the normal style for that route.

IMHO - you can do what you want, but expect to get stick for it....

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

I think a couple of cracks at something is fair play --- if there is nobody waiting then it OK to carry on.

But on a busy day -- on any route -- tradition or not -- it seems unfair to hog it all to your self.

It's really a matter of patience and not ethics - nobody minds waiting a while as somebody tries to do something difficult (think learner drivers) but after a while its a pain in the ass ..... pull over or get out the way etc....

if your taking the Pi** and hanging around where some L plates

In reply to Chris Craggs:

A continuum of standards and abilities. The key thing ethically is minimising damage to the rock and honesty in style. Pedaling away on a classic with dirty shoes is depressing but its not just about top-ropes: falling repeatedly on a damaged cam placement on Orpheus Wall I'd say is worse. Despite sometims being labelled an ethics obsessed bumbly I'm more on the Joe 90 side but I still see good climbers who should know better climbing soft grit when wet or making multiple attempts with bad form on harder routes.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

I was wondering that too. Most of the people I could imagine spouting this kind of opinion are entirely average trad climbers with a superiority complex........

AJM

In reply to Chris Craggs:

It's not dual standards, it's because there's a strong probability both parties never did many Grit VSs to hone their jamming technique first, and that the HVS requires it. Also it's better to leave a route before you've invested 50 days in it. And having a go at a redpoint (as opposed to working the moves) on an 8b takes 10 minutes, and so probably isn't hogging a route for hours.

If someone's not using their feet, or can't Gaston, or is using a wack sequence on their 50th go, when any of this would help dispatch it, someone might want to give them a bit of advice. But then again there's a surprising number of shit climbers have climbed 8b on will power and brute force, and I don't propose to give them any advice at all.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

The definitive reason for which being their ears and/or head are cold and their body is warm.

In reply to Chris Craggs:
Ah the perennial debate (amongst other perennial debates).
Fact is all things are relative one persons VDiff is anothers E8 so the only real quibble is whether they are kicking chunks off it or hogging it when others want a go.

But out of interest...where is the grade line between dogging and working a route? So, for instance, is it dogging up to E1 and then working from E2 or is it higher or lower?

In reply to Duncan Bourne:


Depends on the accuser; if the climber is attempting a climb within the accuser's ability then the climber is dogging, if the climber is attempting a route outside the accuser's ability then the climber is working.

Arsenberger's third law of ukc in action:

"He who climbs the hardest has the most valid opinion"

In reply to Chris Craggs:

6/10. I do like the old ones the best.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:



I don't think its a grade thing. I think its down to what your ultimate intention is towards the route. "Working it" implies (to me at least) that you are trying to work up to leading it cleanly.

In reply to GrahamD:
That's quite a good definition I like that!

In reply to Marc C:

Nonce sense!

We use gear so that if we can't finish a climb and get pumped and fall off or slip we are safe.

That's how you push you're grade!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Ditto. Well said.

In reply to slacky:

I thought that was sport climbing!

I thought the point of trad gear was to protect you incase you fell not because you are almost certainly gonna fall, I dont climb E2 because I cant simple, but if I climb enough E1's sooner or later E2 will come naturaly, throwing myself at a E2 until I beat it into submision is not climbing, its arrogance.

In reply to Chris Craggs: Perhaps if you'd ask people to comment on a post titled 'leave it until you're good enough' you'd hava had more sensible discussion.

In reply to Chris Craggs: hi Chris, do you think the Rock and 'two pegs for aid' Ice should have left the routes ??

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Of course, and others who use cams should also do the routes the R+I did with less gear than they did. seeing as they have sticky rubber nowadays.

Now that is you stuffed with your sports routes.;-P

In reply to Chris Craggs: I'm not very happy about this "taught" rope. I've tried teaching my rope, but it seems to have difficulty learning even the simplest thing.

In reply to sutty: Good point well made

In reply to Andy2:

If you'd read my reply of 20:42 Mon, you'd have known that's a job for your bow and you're not supposed to teach it yourself!

I'd just like to point out I tuned into this thread not looking for a fight but expecting a lovely recollection of quality sayings from Sir Christian Bonnington.

In reply to sutty:

I dunno - theres probably less gear on most of the routes at Malham etc now than when they were aided on the FA.....

AJM

In reply to AJM:

BOLTS MAN, BOLTS, a disgrace I tells yer.

Now I am not agin them, just stick them in with hammer and chisel ground up as the aid routes wus done, standing in the top rung of your etriers.

In reply to PSR:My take is that whatever grade you choose to climb at and whatever route you choose to do, the style is up to me (top rope, onsight, dogging, red point, naked etc) and if I get there first I get first dibs. But.... if some asked nicely ..... and I was between goes..... that's fine, have at it.

I agree with the first part of the statement, but first dibs where exactly do you think you are, we are talking about a piece of rock out in nature that doesn't belong to any climber even temporarily.

that sort of attitude is as bad as the climber who wants to onsight a certain route ,only to find someone top roping it, and thinking he has some sort of priority, both parties have equal rights to be on the route and a pious attitude from anyone should be justly dealt with, with a swift kick to the bollocks and the immortal words "take that you fanny"

In reply to the flash:

just climb up and over the offending obstructions ropes, "
don't mind me as I stand on your helmet to get past....."

Also what's the deal if you hit a problem mid route do a bit of up/down climbing to figure it out --- but don't hang on any gear? That's ok isn't it??

In reply to leeangell:

how do you know you can't climb e2? Have you tried and failed? And how do you know when e2 has come naturally to you... Surely that requires taking a step into the unknown, risking failure and actually tryingone...?

In reply to AJM:

I dont know that I cant cant climb E2 because I havent tried yet, my point is that for instance if there was a completly unprotectable climb no gear whatsoever (and it hadnt been bolted) that was just above your limit would you solo it or leave it till you were good enough?
Im sure most would leave well alone.
IMO trad gear is there to save you from a fall not as an aid to climbing a route that you are not good enough to climb clean.

In reply to leeangell:

I think you are both right.

You push your grade, and if you are making small steps, then the gear is a safety net if you make a mistake due to pump, stress, or just plain stupidity.

To fall on gear, knowin that you are pushing too hard, and you are gonna take a whipper, is sport climbing, and is the wrong approach to trad, in my opinion....

I have seen sport climbers on Malham, who seem blatantly obvious unable to climb at the standard they are dogging, clip sticking and generally arsing about.
Surely it is better to onsight something, enjoy the climbing, and work through the grades enjoying your climbing, rather than bragging about "working" a route, or your latest 8a? Even if you do take a few sport falls, thats fine.

It seems that ego is involved, and wanting to tick each grade, and say you are an E4 cliber or whatever, but how about the old fashioned apprenticeship, that until you could onsite just about every VS you started, you were not ready for HVS. If you have climbed one VS, a VS climber you do not make.

In reply to NorthernRock:

No - you are missing the point that you reap leaps in improvement by working routes above your onsight grade.

In reply to NorthernRock:


I think you're falling into the classic trap of assuming that everyone should aspire to the same things as you do.

Personally, I'm as proud of my sport redpoint achievements as my trad onsight achievements (in a "im a talentless punter" sort of way). I enjoy the feeling of pulling off an onsight at my limit, sketching a bit and really digging in (on sport or trad), the feeling of climbing an easy but immaculate pitch in a chilled and relaxed way and the feeling of nailing a series of moves which felt impossible on first attempt - they're all memories I will keep and which will stay with me.

AJM

In reply to ClimberEd:

But why do you want to leap your grade so fast? Have you done all the lines and classics that you want?

In reply to ClimberEd:

I think it all boils down to your personal ethical stance and my own personal ethics say that "working routes above your onsight grade" is not trad its sport.

In reply to leeangell:

Would I solo it or leave it until I was good enough? What a daft question....

How would I know if I was good enough? I'd know by trying routes of a similar difficulty with less death potential. The first one of those would be a step into the unknown because whilst well protected it would have to be harder than things I'd done before.

You seem to be basing your whole theory on the idea that somehow you'll know when you are good enough, and that you'll know you aren't good enough to climb something clean without giving it a go to find out. Your way leads to never knowing what you are capable of because you don't want to try.

AJM

In reply to AJM:

Who says thats what I aspire to?

A series of moves that feels impossible, can just be 1 or 2 grades higher. You can climb most of the route, but just get stuck on one or two moves.
It may also be imposible as you dont get the rock?

Ask any sport climber who has climbed Raindogs, can they climb The Vice at Stanage? Can someone who has climbed Archangel, climb Bat Route?

I think to struggle up over 50% of a route, shows that you are not ready for it, to struggle up 25%, making moves at the edge of your ability, and just past what you thought you culd do shows you are ready for it.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

You are still a bad man.

In reply to NorthernRock:

The fact you use the word "surely" implies that you think it is obvious that we should all feel that way.

"impossible" is relative. For me something feels impossible if theres no way I could have worked it out without spending at least five minutes hanging there trying to figure out which holds to use and ending up with a move that there's no way I could ever have seen five minutes before. By working it out its expanded my knowledge. Most moves I can't do on trad routes I at least know how I should do.

I'm sure one of the Malham regulars will pop along in a minute to point out that most people who climb at Malham regularly have onsighted at least E5 now or in the past and that some have onsighted E7, so I'll let the comments about the Vice be dealt with by a more capable man

I don't know where Bat route is, I have to confess, but I'm assuming its some kind of similar "some climbers aren't well rounded and can't climb cracks/graunches/etc" argument?

You are approaching things from an onsight mindset though, in your last paragraph. To some sport climbers if you can do every move individually on your first try on a route its too easy. Different games, different rules. Your opinion is your opinion, that doesn't make it right (or wrong).

In reply to AJM:

absolutely.

Well rounded is a good term!

If you can do every move first time, its not hard enough to push you. If you cant do any or link 2 moves, the route is beyond you, and leave it until you can flow and it feels good.

In reply to NorthernRock:

99% Yes



Given that Bat Route is 8c since the hold broke and probably <20 climbers in this country climb that grade, probably the answer is no.

And exactly what does it prove?

In reply to AJM:

I think the point you are missing is that I didnt start out climbing E1 I worked up to it as im sure most people do, I imagine very few people start out in their early climbing years throwing themselves at routes that are obviously too hard for them, that sort of ethos comes later when people reach the early to mid E grades and realise they cant naturaly climb that hard.

In reply to Boy:

I have had the entertainment of watching the '1%' fail though, and on an easier route - The File.


Some good sport climbers can't jam to even a basic standard. I've no idea on the Archangel/ Bat thing though.

In reply to leeangell:

I've just read through your posts on this post again in order, and I still can't understand your point. This crap about gear being in case you fall rather than because you're going to fall - you seem to believe that people aim to fall off on routes. How many people do that do you think, versus the number who try things, give them their best shot, and occasionally fail. And where the stuff about soloing things at your limit fits in I don't know - if you trad climb the same grade as you solo, you're either very composed in your head or trying nowhere near hard enough on safe routes......

Anyhow, I'm off out.....

AJM

In reply to AJM:

"grade" in the penultimate sentence of my main paragraph by the way refers to a measure of pure difficulty, like a french grade, rather than somehting which includes a danger aspect, like a UK one

In reply to AJM:

The OP's original statement "What about Joe 90 on his 50th attempt to link the moves on his 8b?" this is what I mean by using gear knowing you are going to fall rather than just being there to protect you.

Anyway its horses for courses and you are well within your rights to do what you damn well please.

In reply to Marc C: Good question....no mention on the thread of enjoyment by the way.