UKC

It wouldn't be right to have a Dave Birkett story without a Dave MacLeod report - they are after all only two of a handful of climbers operating at the cutting edge of trad climbing in the UK today. In the summer their passion and love for exploration takes hold and they can be guaranteed to be up to something exciting.

Dave B has just repeated an E9 and established another last great in the Lakes, and Dave MacLeod is on the brink of something big....

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=48746

In reply to UKC News:
What the hell grade is that going to get?
23 pitches with possible 8c+ crux.
Will be stunning when he does that.

In reply to UKC News:

Brilliant, another Dave M epic feat to follow. Looking forward to hearing the progress!

In reply to Graham T:

HXS 7a? Or would 5.14+ R be easier to understand for the masses?

In reply to UKC News:

Looks a complete epic - hats off to Dave for taking on such an outstanding challenge. As for the grade - how on Earth (why on Earth?) would you even bother trying? Reducing something like this to mere numbers would be a sacrilege.

In reply to UKC News: Serious place, when you are on the old man you think it is big, then you look along to the main cliffs....the chopper from Schiehallion took us on a fly past there too, outstanding place and kudos to mr MacLeod...

In reply to UKC Newsave is an awesome climber and being a climber of modest ability I salute his ambition. What fails to impress is pre-practicing on top rope until each placement is known each handhold and rest place is already worked out, then some silly on-sight grade will be giving. Wake up and smell the coffee!
Why does Dave after abseil cleaning not at first try to climb ground up rather than try to lower the climb to his ability?

In reply to The brainn:

Why should he do it any way other than what works for him? He is going to do it in better style than previous attempts & I'm sure that in the future someone will do it in better style than him. If you think you can do it in better style then go for it!
There is a good chance he won't grade it other than giving a french technical grade for the crux, like he did on echo wall.

In reply to SC:

An alpine grade may be more appropriate

In reply to UKC News: This amazing line has been waiting for 39 years. It is great that Dave has taken up the challenge and hard work. Is it possible?
Hurry up and tell us all about it. Then you can do the whole route in a single day!

In reply to The Brainn: You ever tried to onsight a route at your physical limit before, irrespective of the number/quality of protection? Thinking pre-practice of a (new) route and cleaning (to see if its feasible) is unimpressive smacks of lack of understanding of situation. Smacks of double standards that you also toprope stuff....may even without the intent to lead them....?

Andy

In reply to Graham T:

When who does what?

In reply to Oliver Hill: Hey Oliver, downplaying your part in the history of this route I think

In reply to The brainn:

> What fails to impress is pre-practicing on top rope until each placement is known each handhold and rest place is already worked out, then some silly on-sight grade will be giving. Wake up and smell the coffee!

Hi The Brainn

Perhaps you misunderstand something here. Ground-up and onsight levels are currently around E8 for trad, and only a handful and usually single pitch. Sport onsight levels top at around 8c+.

What Dave is attempting here is a whole different ball game. First off it is not bolt protected, secondly Dave estimates the climbing on the upper pitch will be 8c climbing.

"But unfortunately it’s not bolted, or at a roadside crag in Spain! "

18 pitches of climbing..then the crux at Dave's physical limit

"Between then and my next trip, I trained, dieted and went over and over what would be needed to climb a 50 metre pitch near my sport climbing limit, but on trad gear, 18 pitches up, with some puking fulmars to fight with passing the gear breaks?"

What he is doing is standard for routes at this level and this nature. ...and for most first ascents.

As regards the grade you said, then some silly on-sight grade will be giving

The last time Dave climbed a similar route: Echo Wall - he didn't grade it.

I think Dave is well aware of the limitations of our grading system, it's uses and misuses.

I'm sure he will give some indication of this climbs difficulty when he succeeds and will be open and honest about the style he climbed it in - as he always is.

Above all he will share in the experience as he usually does.

He's one of the least over-hyping top climbers we have in the UK and deserves respect for that.

Less cynicism please.

And what a great history this climb has: Ed Drummond and Oliver Hill, John Arran and Dave Turnbull..... all pointed out on Dave's blog.

I, like many, am looking forward to the next chapter.

Mick
Senior Editor
UKClimbing.com

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

>"18 pitches of climbing..then the crux at Dave's physical limit"

Sounds like it might offer even more of a challenge than a route like say... Hubble.

Dave certainly doesn't make it easy for himself. I hope he does it and sells a stack of DVD's. I'm guessing he's fairly confident if he's blogging about it...

In reply to UKC News:
23 pitches! Is that comparible in length to the routes on El Cap?

In reply to Brendan:

El Cap: roughly: 3,000-foot (910 m)

In reply to UKC News:
looks like an amazing route, I can't wait till he does it and also reveals the overall grade.
also a big well done to dave birkett too.

In reply to Brendan:

The routes up El Cap are up to 30+ pitches long, it is 3000' high. St John's Head is c1000' high, maybe some of the 23 pitches are short ones?

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:
Cheers, certainly looks like some piece of rock.

In reply to The brainn:
>What fails to impress is pre-practicing on top rope until each placement is known each handhold and rest place is already worked out, then some silly on-sight grade will be giving. Wake up and smell the coffee!

Wouldn't it be ironic if you had a worked grade on your profile?

oh hang on a minute....

In reply to Al Evans:

The route? I apologise for not being clearer for you.

In reply to UKC News: Im not sure how topropable any of those pitches will be, headpointing might not be an option there.

In reply to The brainn:


I think the point of headpointing at this level is that you're NOT lowering the challenge to meet your ability; you're raising your ability to meet the challenge.

What does interest me is whether Dave will feel that he needs to do the whole route in one push to get the tick.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:



Or maybe that scared of some usurping him that he actually does it in one big pitch with a specially bought 1,000ft rope.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: with rope drag he's gonna have to shave a few ounces off his biners - DMM has some good ones don't they?

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

That's something I always thought would tempt people to repeat our free version, but since it still hasn't been done in one push 12 years later I guess I was wrong. Once I've done something I tend to have little interest in doing it again for a relatively small improvement in style, but I can see that it would definitely be an improvement worth striving for the first time around. The reason we didn't do it in one push was that we didn't have enough info the first time and lost our way. After Dave had been to see Oliver and returned with notes from his encyclopaedic memory of the route we decided to pick up where we left off rather than repeat all the lower 2/3 of the route, but it definitely would have been better if we'd had the info in the first place.

In reply to Al Evans:

You need to read the news page Al and in particular Dave's blog. There is a potted history of the route there..

http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/2009_08_01_archive.html

In reply to Al Evans:

A couple of years ago, Oliver Hill sent me a message pointing me in the direction of a possible good project. In 1970, he and Ed Drummond had a fairly gruelling adventure opening a 500 metre long aid route on St John’s Head on Hoy, over six days. The Longhope Route is the longest wall climbs in the UK and everything about it also makes it arguably the most adventurous.

In 1997 John Arran and Dave Turnbull made a free version of the route, climbing the lower pitches before escaping off left, and returning a few months later to abb in and climb the top part, avoiding the headwall cracks by a 4 pitch deviation up grooves on the left. Even though their route avoided the hardest part of the Longhope Route, it is still one of the hardest adventure style trad climbs anywhere, with 23 pitches of serious, loose and sometimes birdy climbing, and an F8a pitch near the top.

Oliver pointed out to me that a free ascent of the original headwall cracks (about pitch 18) might be 8c+ at a guess. So I swore I would get myself there, sooner or later. Last month, sooner or later arrived and I was dangling in space, 350 metres above the sea inspecting the unbelievable overhanging headwall of St John’s head. To look at, the cracks reminded me of my own route Rhapsody - a smooth, long leaning wall, with a thin crack petering out into the wall with tiny edges beyond. But this time it was 18 pitches up! Fairly irresistible as you might imagine.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I did read the news page and now the blog and I agree that is worth a read and clears things up.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

After we escaped out left and contacted Oliver for info, he told us that the main criteria for the first ascent had been to stay on the front face of the head and suggested that the groove left of the thinnest part of the headwall seam may provide a more feasible solution for freeclimbing. He virtually told us what grade it would go at too!

I think it's misleading to say we "avoided the hardest part of the Longhope Route" when what we did was to free the Longhope Route by its most logical free climbing line, just as Drummond and Hill had free and aided it by its most logical line for that style. An analogy would be The Scoop on Sron Ulladale, but the difference between the Longhope aid and free versions is proportionally far smaller than that for The Scoop.

It's great that Dave is trying to free the aid seam. It will be an amazing effort if he does it and no doubt freeing it by this specific line would be one of the hardest trad adventure leads anywhere (if not THE hardest), but the route itself, by its original criteria, has already been freed.

In reply to Oliver Hill:

FAs are finite resources.

In reply to Galvaniser: Not that finite on Hoy.

In reply to Al Evans:

finite though. If an epic line is climbed in bad style then that is part of it's history.

No disrespect to dave, as obviously headpointing is probably the only way this route will go.

In reply to Galvaniser: Is that what he is doing, in that case I'm still reading the blog wrong, I thought he was trying to do it ground up in one push on the original line after having abseiled down in space looking in, hardly headpointing?

In reply to Al Evans:


from the blog: "wasted myself for two days cleaning it and then trying the moves." My read was that after inspecting and having a feel of the "hard" pitch, he'd attempt the route ground (sea!) up in a single push.

Cheers,

FT.

In reply to Fume Troll:

>"having a feel of the "hard" pitch"

I think at level of anticipated difficulty (F8c/F8c+) he'll need more than a quick feel.

In reply to andyinglis:Yes,

In reply to john arran: I agree with you, John. The line you and Dave T did was actually the line that Ed and I had originally intended to climb. It is the easiest free way up the cliff between the bounding aretes. Hence almost by definition it is the natural route and probably more classic: two overhanging grooves and a long scary heel hook traverse through incredible terrortory, 'vaya patio! (Fortunately Ed chose the direct A2 crack line, because I might never have survived a 6b traverse on skyhooks or other dodgy gear!)
Dave Ms approach is the logical modern way to climb a good line, the 50m thin crack in one of the most exciting positions in the UK up granite hard sandstone.
On one face it is normal to have several 4 star routes, if it is a good cliff: Big John Left Arete , LHR, Direct Route, and Right Arete.
Incidentally the First Free Ascent route deviated from the FA route above the Vile Crack missing out on the Forever Traverse and the Unconquerable Flakes into the heart of the cliff, by taking a more direct line but not necessarily more esthetic or classic line.

I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat.

In reply to Fume Troll: Exactly, hardly 'headpointing'. especially seeing as 'the vile crack' is reputedly the hardest off width in the UK and he won't have practised that.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: What Dave is doing is a massive challange having passed below the cliffs myself. Top end climbs especially on sandstone will require an abseil to clean but when a route is then top roped into submission then surely we are lowering the cliff to suit ability. Dave is some climber and I hope he can manage a ground up accent of every pitch. If and when he is able to top rope the final pitch is he then going to climb from the ground up?

In reply to The brainn:

I disagree. The only way to lower the cliff to suit ability is too chip holds and add bolts or gear placements. What Dave is trying to do is raise his ability to match that required by the cliff.

I note on your profile you have top rope worked an E4. Did you lower the route to your level, or did you get better trying it?

In reply to catt: Interestingly, if as people are saying Dave is headpointing the upper section, will the first 'real' complete on sight await a next generation superstar?

In reply to Al Evans:

>"will the first 'real' complete on sight await a next generation superstar?"

500m up to F8c on trad gear on sea cliff on Hoy might take several generations!

In reply to catt: You are absolutely right. is it not wondeful to find a route, a vision that you feel is a bit, or a lot too difficult, and then climb it? That is what is so great about climbing. So many opportunities for success, many small and a few big, as big as your heart.

In reply to john arran: the original line is either freed or it isnt, variations done later are exactly that, variations. However, I think the semantics are irrelevant as your ascent is very relevant and historically very important. Out of interest, did you work the 8a pitch? just wondering so you could give us an idea what is involved in working a very hard pitch high up on that cliff!!

In reply to JLS:

I doubt that.

In reply to Oliver Hill: amazing that you guys had the vision and balls to even attempt a route up that cliff back then!

In reply to Al Evans: I dont doubt it, it took 27 years, or 2 generations for a team to try it free after the first ascent

In reply to Al Evans: Hi Al, the one thing I am not trying to do is that! The first ascent, 80% free, stands. What I have been trying to do is keep it alive. Actually I hope one day it will become popular, climbed at least a couple of times a year. I guess standards have risen to E6 onsight for a lot of people, so LHR could be climbed at this grade with the odd A0 move.
At least this website is giving the route publicity so people can get animated and take up the challenge how they want.

Now people go north for the Old Man of Hoy.
Tomorrow for LHR. After all Cenotaph Corner and the Great Wall were climbed with the odd aid move to begin with, and even still.

In reply to Erik B:

Like Oliver said, the route is to climb between the aretes. Variations will exist as to how you do this but they're all fundamentally the same route.
The '8a' pitch (I don't think I graded it that but I may have done in a roundabout kind of way) is very short and was only really difficult for me because I couldn't quite reach the finishing hold, so it was very frustrating getting to the last move repeatedly and failing. I placed the gear on lead onsight and reversed to the belay, then just tried it repeatedly until either it or I gave up!

In reply to UKC News:

This has to be one of the most interesting genuine climbing threads on UKC for a very long while.

In reply to Oliver Hill: Hi Oliver, you will know that there are lots of other exciting possibilities on Hoy. There have been quite a few routes established on Rora Head since we did our thing (though I established some routes in 1997). But if Daves efforts bring Hoy into the highlights again it won't be a bad thing.

In reply to john arran: superb!!

In reply to Al Evans: Im sure a new route was done there by some locals relatively recently, i think it was posted on here as a news item. I could of course be taking mince.

In reply to Al Evans:

Hi Al.

Is the current E3 6a grade given for Original Route given for the route in its free state?

If so, what was the original grade for the route with the aid section?

In reply to UKC News:

...I've always been surprised no one has been back on Longhope Route. Like John Arran said earlier, the main problem we had back in 1997 was route finding. St Johns is a complex cliff and it took a detailed handwritten description from Oliver Hill (who still has a quite remarkable memory for the route - 39yr yrs on) to spur us on for a second effort. Longhope in a day is still a major challenge but is definitely a realistic prospect for the right team. Dave Mc's attempt at freeing the aided section of the headwall crack (roughly a 30m section I think - which we avoided because it was clearly a non-starter for on-sighting) is great to see; for anyone interested in what it looks like - see Oliver's photo of Ed Drummond in the short story 'The Incubus Hills' in the book - A Dream of White Horses. Completing these two major challenges would be the final chapter in this amazing route - the unsung hardest route in Britain (my view anyway) when it was done back in 1970

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

One of many.

In reply to Queequeg: The aid section was very short, but I think we just gave it XS.

In reply to Al Evans:

OK, cheers Al.

In reply to Oliver Hill:

Beautifully put! Didn't Drummond describe you on Hoy as, "like Churchill without the war..."

Could be he was right.

Mick

In reply to Erik B: Ed had the vision. I went along out of naivety. I trusted ED, who I thought was a Yosemite Aid expert. He wasn't, but he was very good at mixing free and aid, free and frigging. He learnt this at Avon and The Equator was a sort of practise. A route similar in some respects to LHR being over 1000 feet long, scary traverses with long runouts and dodgy gear, but good rock and I would like to think great climbing. Equator was my idea and Ed wrote in the Avon guide that I fathered the route and he mothered it. On LHR it was the reverse Ed did all the hard work and I mothered Ed. Once Ed told me that the ascent was being covered by The Daily Telegraph, I said to myself where Ed leads I follow, I am not giving up. Conversely Ed seemed to think that he could not loose face in front of me,see Dream Of White Horses. Also he had not done as well in Yosemite as he liked and had recent domestic problems, so he was caught between the rock and me; between my naivety and his fear of failure. Of course he also had balls and the right sort of skill. Over that week we went thru a lot of emotion, not least on the descent which was a major epic of fear and incompetence and shear determination to survive. But compared to being in the trenches in the First World War or being in a Oxford/Cambridge Himalayan expedition not so bad. When you are young you can do anything, because you do not realise your ignorance. As long as you do not leave your balls behind, you won't have to go back to find them.

In reply to Oliver Hill:
Once Ed told me that the ascent was being covered by The Daily Telegraph,

Thats probably because our ascent of The Original Route got a half page spread in the Telegraph.

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC: I remember this route so well because between 1967 and 1980 I hardly climbed at all. Almost my only contact with climbing being a monthly subscription to Mountain. Each month I looked to see if anyone had repeated LHR and never a comment. What is the point of so much effort if the route disappears? Around then, I went around the world with two suitcases, in the bottom where a few faded prints from the Telegraph of the route. Later. my wife got them framed and they now reside in my kitchen: one shows the beautiful line of the upper cliff looking up its first pitch, another shows what I consider the most stressful move I have done, on the Forever Traverse. Another looks down the crux traverse to the sea far below.
From the Crows Nest belay at the top of the 8a/A2/8c pitch, the view/exposure/patio was extraordinary. Sitting in space looking down on mushroom towers and below the white waves. Later, as I tried to go to sleep on an offshore platform, rather sadly, I comforted myself with the feeling of remembered motion, climbing up the doubly overhanging groove between spaced pegs. These impressions cannot be repeated easily, now climbers have been innoculated from such steepness by modern routes.

In reply to Oliver Hill:

>"Each month I looked to see if anyone had repeated LHR and never a comment."

Seems like, if you set the bar too high for your contemporaries, your route will only slowly, get the attention it deserves. I can think of a few similar routes. It's been good to read first hand posts, on this thread, about your route.

In reply to Erik B:


This one?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=45203

In reply to UKC News:

That is what you call News - what a line, what a position!

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

>"That is what you call News"

He's no' actually climbed it yit!

In reply to JLS: There must be thousands of such routes, all loved or abandoned by their doting or not so doting mothers.
I think it may be a good idea to think what can be done about some of these routes, indeed even cliffs. Cleaning up, de-vegetating cliffs is one way. Another way is to de-tat. Remove all that ugly rotten ironware and replace with solid stainless steel, in line with the first ascent, ie new for old; or one new for 2 dodgy old, taking into account potential for standard rack placements. A standard rack being defined in the current guide book and deviations being noted on the route topo (eg extra set F0-1, I F6). That way an on-sighter would not be caught short because he did not have the latest offset double cam all that fits). And good stainless steel belays.
Perhaps Spain leads here. On Montserrat, where the rock does not take good if any gear similar to granite slabs, a lot of routes are hardly ever climbed, I imagine, because gear has rotted, been stolen, was always inadequate. Some of the classics have had a makeover. For instance the Punsola-Reniu on Cavall Bernat, 250m, one of the top 10 classic climbs in Spain had all the tat removed and sensibly replaced with parabolts so that it was climbable at 5/5+ obligatory as originally. It is very hard to see any of the old tat placements, the rock looks immaculate. On this route the bolts are atypically close but that is to allow it to be climbed at VS, even though without aid it would be F7a. GAM on El Bisbe, 275 m, a similar classic has a few runouts and on the hard pitch the bolts are further apart, so the route is 5+ obligatory, about E1, with the crux pitch good sustained F7a if you dont pull on bolts. Haus Extem on the Momia has 3 bolts in 35 metres and preserves its fear factor. Many other routes have not been re-equipped and are dangerous or avoided, or forgotten.
I have a feeling that a lot of the limestone routes in UK could do with a makeover. How about a 'remove all rust at your local crag' day?

In reply to Oliver Hill:

I hope you're not suggesting it would be ok for someone to replace the very few ancient bolts on Long Hope Route with shiny new ones, or even worse to equip all of the belays with stainless steel pegs! That would be a certain way to remove most of the adventure and with it most of the attraction of the route.

What works well in parts of Spain is likely to have no place at all on Hoy.

In reply to Oliver Hill:

Great posts Oliver. Really interesting to read your reflections.

... and as a 'modern climber' who as you say has become more used to steepness i still find the idea of doing this on dodgy sandstone and spaced pegs terrifying.

In reply to Oliver Hill: Most of Yorkshire and Peak limestone's been retroed anyway!

In reply to Oliver Hill: Ever since John and Daves ascent was published I've wanted to do this. Unfortunately I'm not nearly good enough! I remember I was climbing at the end of my 1st year at Uni, out in the Ecrins and came back from a bit of an epic benightment, to find a copy of the Mag with the story in it... how hard would it be to aid the route using clean aid? I know it would be a retrograde progression, but then on such adventure routes, I don't see the british ethic as being quite as relevant any more?

In reply to mike kann: You are correct, its Alpine Wall in scale, I can see no objection to doing it on clean aid as an adventure, but be prepared for a bivuoac. Its a good trip to take on the Old Man with a route on St Johns too.

In reply to Al Evans: I might just suggest it to my buddy. What sort of grade do you think it would go at? I mean obviously the sea cliff experience would add to it but in terms of technical ability?

In reply to Red Rover:

From today's blog post:
http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/2009/08/another-link-in-chain.html

'I got my objective of the big link through the entire top pitch on the shunt.'

In reply to mike kann:

I think you need to ask Oliver.

In reply to catt: Yes to your question, when I top-rope It's a) for training and b)so I can lower the route to my level. Anyway just cause it says on my profile worked E4 does not mean I've top-roped it. Your making assumptions? In your profile your from Glasgow might of guessed you'd be a soap dodging weegie. Anyway I hope Dave is having a great time cause he's one hell of a climber. But as said on another thread an onsight of E5/6 is more impressive than a pre-practiced E9/10. That's my opinion. I bet Dave's PR manager is happy

In reply to john arran: No I was not really thinking of LHR. That is sandstone. I should not have mentioned this on this news section. I was really thinking about it for some of the Peak limestone cliffs or Avon. I have not climbed on the Main Wall for 20 years as having survived for three years there in '60s I have not wanted to push my luck in 2000s having heard everyone say how badly protected it is.
Last year I did a couple of classics in the Peak and I was not impressed.
I guess I was throwing up an idea. Obviously to put what I was saying in practise it would be up the the local climbers in each area.

I have done very little trad climbing in UK recently so I am not qualified really. I have just been impressed by what has been done in Catalunya on some of the routes on Montserrat, on routes very run out like Aresta Aracons to the safe ones as mentioned above.

Actually what is wrong with bolted belays, if there is not good natural pro? I thought on one of the routes you freed in Venezuela you put in bolt belays on a route that the first ascentionists had put no bolts in at all.

In reply to mike kann: Dont ask me about aid. I have avoided it since LHR. (apart from normal free frigging. The grade as done back in 1970 might be E4 5c A2. But the route was a mixed free route with the odd aid except for a couple of pitches. I cannot see anyone nowadays wanting to put in many pegs. I think Dave Turnbull's grade of E6 6b with the odd standard rack move would be the way to go. and indeed the most enjoyable. Maybe possible to do at E4 but don't forget retreating would involve awkward traversing off and worse. If you rap off on the upper wall you will need very long ropes, about 2 X 700 feet.
If I were you I would aid somewhere else.

In reply to The brainn:

Is this a race thing?

Dave the top roping soap dodging weegie.

In reply to john arran: A better answer than my first is really it is up to the first free ascentionists as well as local climbers and people, preferably under 50 years old, climbing at the standard and type of climb to decide how the route is left. You and Dave put in a huge amount of effort and stress, yours is the most important opinion.

If after 5 years more there are not more than five ground up ascents then perhaps it is time to make the route more attractive.
For instance as after 20 years Indian Face has not had any ground up ascents, assuming this is true, then maybe it is time to put a couple of bolts in it.
It is a bit selfish to occupy the space on a cliff without a true trad ascent ie ground up. Perhaps though this idea is better left to longer routes though. (Just my suggestion).

In reply to Oliver Hill:
For instance as after 20 years Indian Face has not had any ground up ascents, assuming this is true, then maybe it is time to put a couple of bolts in it.

Thats nonsense Oliver, its just about as valid as saying a route has only a handful of ascents yearly so lets bring it down to more peoples standard and stop the good guys being selfish. Its the name of the game and your suggestion demeans the skill and vision of the first ascensionists.

In reply to Oliver Hill:


No!!!

Mick

In reply to mike kann:

My best guess at the minimum free / aid grade would be along the same lines as Oliver's suggestion of E4 5c & A2. The harder pitches would probably be p3, 16, 17, 20 & 21. The Vile Crack (p10) could also be quite hard and you'd need at least 1 size 6 cam. I remember wondering at the time how Ed & Oliver managed to climb p17; its a just off vertical rising traverse on rounded holds (+ completely covered in that hairy lichen) with not much gear - it appeared to me to be a difficult prospect on aid and might well need sky hooks. John led that pitch at around E4/5 6a. You'd need to be prepared to spend 2+ dys to climb the route in this style I reckon. Getting up the Longhope Route would be a amazing experience whatever style you go for.

In reply to Al Evans: Yes I agree. I just got a bit of digital diareah.

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC: Yes,P17, I wondered too how Ed got up.It is a pretty cool pitch though and was the crux of the route. Having climbed from the guillotine to the break, I left a piton in because it is a bit hard hammering the bugger out when you are hanging from a hand traverse, about the first of two pitons left in the route, then you make a dash horizontally left, might be able to get a friend in now. then you can get some horizontal handjams in. move left a bit as the crack peters out, if you look between the hair you will find a few little footholds, you keep moving left from the last of the right hand jam, then it all blanks out and starts to overhang. Ed got in a sticky out leper, there is lots of hair and then I really wondered how Ed managed to get up. Good solid rock though and fantastic position. Strange thing is I did not learn to handjam until 1980, but I do remember the pleasure of initially solid jams, then petering out.
I was wearing these useless Robbins boots with plastic soles, that were supposed to be good for Yosemite granite, must have been a bad batch of rubber, and were just the thing for Grade 6 Big Wall climbing so they said. Anyway I sort of remember that they edged quite well there if nowhere else. I think that was the last time I used those boots. Quite comfortable boots though, blue leather.

In reply to Oliver Hill: My Robbins boots were those, blue leather, I think I got them via Ed. Unlike you I thought they were pretty good free climbing boots, I even led E3 on limestone (Boat Pushers Wall) in them.

In reply to Oliver Hill: The first half of pitch 17 is now free of lichen and nice and clean. I'm hoping to climb direct up the overhanging wall from the break traverse to the base of the headwall crack, so I've not cleaned the second part of the traverse. I'm hoping I wont have to be back on an abseil rope on the route but if I am, I'll spend a few hours cleaning the rest of that pitch so it's a little more pleasant to climb.

Once it's clean, the rock is excellent quality on the whole headwall.

In reply to Dave MacLeod: Good effort Dave. Good luck with the rest.

In reply to Dave MacLeod: Dave I'm well impressed with what I call the three D's Dedication, Determination and Discipline. You do us climbers proud I may have a wee dig at style but to be honest I'd not be able to tie your shoe laces. Please do not be offended with any of my comments and good luck with your project. Some day I may find myself on this wall and can imagine the frustration with distance travelled, prep needed so on. I wish you all the best and if at some time in future you climb all 18 pitches then I'll be glad to raise a glass of malt to your success.

In reply to Dave MacLeod: Should you really be cleaning the crux of the original route? The now non-hairy, hairy and airy pitch. Fuzzy wuzzy was a bear, fuzzy wuzzy had no hair, fuzzy wuzzy wasn't fuzzy, wuzzy? I can't resist it.
Presumably tiptoeing thru the tulips is part of the adventure and indeed difficulty. I do remember Dave complaining about it. I don't think he had the above runners as well positioned as for me. When I followed it the hair was dry, not surprising in the gale. I suppose if wet it would be unpleasant. I suppose their are two ways of looking at it.

Best wishes and good weather for the full ascent.

In reply to Oliver Hill:

Perhaps, but in all it's 500m there's no shortage of horticultural adventures. Climbing clean rock is nice too. If climbers are looking for difficult they can always go straight up and free the headwall crack, can't they? Probably won't get a chance to clean any more of it anyway.

In reply to Dave MacLeod: People are much more likely to repeat a clean sound route than a vegetated loose rock fest.

In reply to Dave MacLeod:

Masterly understatement?

Good luck!

Mick

In reply to Dave MacLeod:

Are you aiming to do the whole route? Dont think anyone would grudge you just focusing on the Headwall; do you really want to do something called the Vile Crack?

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: It sounds brilliant to me! Besides, doing the whole lot would be a feat comparable in lots of ways to freeing some of the desperate free-routes in Yosemite, despites it's smaller size... it's got to be Britains only real "big wall" hasn't it?

In reply to mike kann: I think you should go for it Mike, spend a week, do a good recce and maybe the Old Man as well to get used to the rock, then go for it prepared for an adventure, two bivouacs and sack hauling. We descended the gully, if you do this for the Original Route you can cross the gully at the level of the top of the vegetated slabs and miss them out, don't worry ethics, it will still be an adventure. I didn't think the rock was particularly bad even on the first ascent.
Stay here;
http://www.syha.org.uk/hostels/islands/rackwick.aspx
If you have a party of 6 or more you can book the whole hostel to yourself. There is a free bothy but the hostel has that much more privacy and comfort, and for something like that undertaking its actually a cheap price to pay.
Both times I have been we have booked the hostel and the warden has invited us to dinner and a whisky sample

In reply to Al Evans: Thanks Al. What sort of grade do you think the Original route would be? It would certainly be an attractive alternative? My friend has in his stupidity agreed to do it, so why not? I appreciate Oliver's sentiment and would not want to frig LH to death - there's just no point. But Original is a bit more modest isn't it?

In reply to mike kann: Yes, its difficult to give it a grade, especially after all this time. I doubt, if you were willing to use clean aid, that it would be harder than HVS, possibly VS 5a on any single pitch, but of course you can't look at it like that, its a big overall thing where normal grades don't really count.
I say clean aid but I would definitelly carry a hammer and a few pegs just in case, just blades and angles, no need for bongs or rurps which we carried.
I was serious about doing The Old Man first to get used to the style of climbing, we didn't but I think it would have been useful, and I really do think the adventure is worth a week if you do both. It would also be worth having a support team which means you could take over the hostel too. We bivvyed where we could, but actually you can mostly get to good ledges, don't forget a pit.

In reply to UKC News: Who gives a toss about what grade this climb is? It's an adventure for Dave, good luck to him. Thats what climbing should be about adventure, no matter what grade you climb.

In reply to Al Evans: Well that all seems highly feasible given a bit of gumption. I'll start giving it some serious thought!

In reply to Al Evans: PS have you got a photo topo of the route? Would be really helpful to augment the guide description with this...

In reply to UKC News:

Ha ha, love this bit from his blog post:

"One minute it feels like E10 and possible soon, the next it seems way out of my grasp"

In reply to mike kann:

Sorry no, it should be possible to follow from the description in the SMC guide though.

In reply to James Jackson:

Yeah right, a league of his own.

In reply to UKC News:

Simply inspirational.

I know I'm never going to be able to climb super hard or even hard but it does give me the urge to get out and have some adventure.

In reply to James Jackson:

Yes, just beautiful! Like, "It's not [English] 7a, it's only sustained 6c," and, "I relaxed into a layback position..."

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

"It's not [English] 7a, it's only sustained 6c," and, "I relaxed into a layback position...".

Or

"When 6C is no longer hard and 6B is approaching a rest".

MJ

In reply to UKC News:

Whilst on the subject of Scotland's highest sea cliffs, and for anyone on for a Longhope Route style challenge in an even more remote setting, the next major thing must be the 900ft wall right of the Lum of Loirafield (1000ft, E2) on Foula. This wall gentle overhangs for its entire length and (with the possible exception of the St Kilda cliffs, which I've not seen and are restricted anyway) must be the single most impressive sea cliff in the British Isles. The Kame on Foula is the UK's second highest sea cliff at c.1200ft - it was first climbed c.35 yrs ago by Iain McNaught-Davis, Mo Antoine and John Kingston - and at about HVS its a much more amenable proposition than Nebifield. Conachair on St Kilda is UK's tallest sea cliff at around 1400ft but trying to get permission to climb it is a major obstacle. I always had an idea to climb all 3 of Scotland's tallest sea cliffs, maybe one day...

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:

For one daft moment I thought you meant 'in a day'!

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:

Hi Dave, does your Lum of Loirafield go straight up this monster? http://www.powell-pressburger.org/Reviews/37_Edge/FoulaHigh/FoulaHigh02.jpg

Surely around to the sides at that grade? I thought st John's looked scary, but that is something else!

In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC: Ha - I found a picture of that the other day, it is pretty mental, right enough. If you looked with a powerful enough glass, I'd guess there'd be you and Mr Jones in there somewhere on that route you did - was that the Lum of Loirafield? I thought it was harder than E2.

In reply to Queequeg:

Your pic shows the right hand side of Nebifield which is undercut by a 50-75ft cave/ceiling and looks pretty much unclimbable. The two routes Crag Jones and I did were about 100-200 metres left of this - nearer the seaward arete. In the pic here: http://voyageenislande.free.fr/images/informations/norrona_foula.jpg the Lum of Loirafield goes up the wall to the right of the left / seaward arete (through the darker brown area of rock) and the Nose (1100ft, E4/5) starts in the same place then heads left to climb the top half of the arete. The section of crag is your link is obscured by the cliff in the foreground - the c.450ft Wester Hoevdi. Accessing the base of Nebifield involves a 900ft abseil the first 450ft of which is free hanging. The rock is banded sandstone of variable quality - some good, some very poor. I'm pretty sure there's scope for a good quality hard free route to the right of where we climbed and the coastal walk along the western side of Foula is also a fantastic thing to do if the climbing looks too scary.

In reply to UKC News:

Hi Dave.
That looks and sounds amazing and hard; I thought the other cliff looked a bit insane.

Wouldn't fancy carrying the ab rope to the crag!

Cheers.

In reply to Chris Craggs: I just dug out my topo and found out the top of St Johns Head where the route finishes is 1143 feet above MSL where the route starts. Add on 10% because part of the route overhangs and part is less than vertical and you get 1257 feet (hypotenuse)add on 350 feet for the many traverses, as per topo, and you get 1607 feet travelled, that is pretty much 490m. That is for the FA route, which had 18 pitches. The FFA route had 5 extra belays on the top third and so will be a bit longer making it at least 500m long. In the Scottish notes from 2 years ago it was stated to be 1600 feet long and Dave Turnbull had his FFA length at 1700 feet long somewhere. So 500 metres long is accurate enough and does not include any exaggeration, as used to be very common on single pitches in the old guides.
Our Pitch 17 to the Crow's Nest is very three dimensional as it overhangs left to begin with, then traverses right and them sort of goes up and finishes sort of behind ones head. It sort of goes around the inside of a globe such that the direct route to the Crows's Nest, the diameter, was a lot shorter than the distance climbed. The direct back rope to me did not move up very much whilst the climbing ropes did. Something very curious to me sat on the belay but no doubt standard stuff for a modern climber like Dave. It seemed a lot more overhanging than it looks in Daves picture on his blog. Indeed the cliff is entirely different when viewed from the base of the upper wall, much more attractive and scary. You need to be pretty cool to shunt the top two pitches. Practise makes perfect, I guess. and enough time to appreciate the more advanced mobility of our feathered friends.