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The new DMM Torque Nuts seem to be out on sale in quite a few places now and I'm guessing a few people must have got some and tried them out. Any thoughts/opinions? Better than WC Rockcentrics?
In reply to mattrm: I had a good look at them in V12 last week, but only wanted the 1 & 2. I've got a good selection of the "cowbell" sizes and don't really see me using the 3 & 4.
When the individual sizes are available, I'll buy.
When the individual sizes are available, I'll buy.
In reply to morticiaskeeper:
You can buy them individually from Needlesports:
http://www.needlesports.com/acatalog/Mail_Order_Wide_Crack_Protection_19.ht...
and I'm sure there are plenty of other places out there selling them individually.
You can buy them individually from Needlesports:
http://www.needlesports.com/acatalog/Mail_Order_Wide_Crack_Protection_19.ht...
and I'm sure there are plenty of other places out there selling them individually.
In reply to mattrm: I received some from DMM to test for UKC just a few days ago http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2009/08/dmm-torque-nuts.html and placed three out of the four on one route on tuesday night.
Thoughts so far: they are light, pretty, make the same good ole annoying clanking noises as traditional hexes, seem as easy to place as Rockcentrics and the doubled sling is very clever. More testing needed for deeper conclusions. As there is a lot of interest in them I'll try and use them plenty ASAP and do the review sooner rather than later.
Thoughts so far: they are light, pretty, make the same good ole annoying clanking noises as traditional hexes, seem as easy to place as Rockcentrics and the doubled sling is very clever. More testing needed for deeper conclusions. As there is a lot of interest in them I'll try and use them plenty ASAP and do the review sooner rather than later.
In reply to mattrm: I bought the full set on monday. Feild and treck have them discounted on both the full set and the individuals. Off to the Lakes to scuff them up next week.
Got some funny looks on the train home though. Because of the thickness of the alloy they make a noise akin to porcelain breaking when the bang together.
Got some funny looks on the train home though. Because of the thickness of the alloy they make a noise akin to porcelain breaking when the bang together.
In reply to Aziraphael:
I think I'm about to buy some today, very tempted. I haven't got any hexes and these seem to cover a bigger range and be cheaper (because there are less).
Gotta make my mind up before 14:00 to get next day delivery.
I think I'm about to buy some today, very tempted. I haven't got any hexes and these seem to cover a bigger range and be cheaper (because there are less).
Gotta make my mind up before 14:00 to get next day delivery.
In reply to mattrm:
bought a set at lunch time today will e testing them asap. cant wait
bought a set at lunch time today will e testing them asap. cant wait
so does anyone have any first impressions of these then?
In reply to devilfire:
Got mine today (from Needle Sports after cancelling my Rock and Rapid preorder) and have to say they look great (note I didn't mention sound, since they're possibly even janglier than hexes!), so looking forward to trying them out.
Got mine today (from Needle Sports after cancelling my Rock and Rapid preorder) and have to say they look great (note I didn't mention sound, since they're possibly even janglier than hexes!), so looking forward to trying them out.
In reply to devilfire:
They're good. The double slings are a very clever idea. They feel light. The range is not as extensive as Rockcentrics. If you're in the market for hexes they are well worth considering but I'm not certain yet that they are light years ahead of Rockcentrics.
> so does anyone have any first impressions of these then?
They're good. The double slings are a very clever idea. They feel light. The range is not as extensive as Rockcentrics. If you're in the market for hexes they are well worth considering but I'm not certain yet that they are light years ahead of Rockcentrics.
In reply to mattrm:
They seem nice overall, my only criticism is that the extendable slings felt a bit stiff, so you have to fiddle with them instead of pulling and clipping in one motion like you can with their cams.
Other than that, great, cover a great range for a set of 4!
They seem nice overall, my only criticism is that the extendable slings felt a bit stiff, so you have to fiddle with them instead of pulling and clipping in one motion like you can with their cams.
Other than that, great, cover a great range for a set of 4!
In reply to Aziraphael:
I placed all four of mine at Stanage last night, they're really nice, light, seat well, the sling is a little stiff, but I'm sure it will improve over time.
I placed all four of mine at Stanage last night, they're really nice, light, seat well, the sling is a little stiff, but I'm sure it will improve over time.
In reply to Ben Callard:
If you already have wallnuts up to size 11 do you really need the full set, it looks like sizes 3 and 4 would do?
If you already have wallnuts up to size 11 do you really need the full set, it looks like sizes 3 and 4 would do?
In reply to sharpie530:
There are various placements that a wired nut doesn't work, but a slung hex will. I find them particularly useful for setting up belays...
There are various placements that a wired nut doesn't work, but a slung hex will. I find them particularly useful for setting up belays...
In reply to mattrm:
Well I've got some on order now, so I'll post up what I think when I've actually got them (most places are out of stock now).
Well I've got some on order now, so I'll post up what I think when I've actually got them (most places are out of stock now).
In reply to mattrm:
Well I've just been using them for a week on Lundy and they seem OK. Very similar size and weight to Rockcentrics but with a more asymmetric profile.
The doubled sling was occasionally useful, but the wacky profile didn't seem to make a vast difference, although it did make placing them in a couple of placements a little bit fiddlier than Rockcentrics would be I thought.
My current conclusion: not significantly better (or worse) than Rockcentrics
Well I've just been using them for a week on Lundy and they seem OK. Very similar size and weight to Rockcentrics but with a more asymmetric profile.
The doubled sling was occasionally useful, but the wacky profile didn't seem to make a vast difference, although it did make placing them in a couple of placements a little bit fiddlier than Rockcentrics would be I thought.
My current conclusion: not significantly better (or worse) than Rockcentrics
In reply to Different Steve:
The designer at DMM explained this to me - the profile is specifically designed to increase their caming range for both placements in horizontal cracks and in vertical parallels.
I've been using them I guess like you; mainly in classic bottle neck placements - and found very similar to you: that they are nice but seemingly not that different from rockcentrics or even classic hexes. But I'm going to try them now in more funky placements. I guess I'm spoilt by having a full rack of cams - so in a parallel crack or a horizontal break I'd just stuff a cam in. But for people who don't own cams yet, or if you are going light in winter or alps and only take the torque nuts - I guess that's when the bigger camming range comes into play. So I'm going to have to fiddle a bit with them to see if I can bring that bit of their design into play as that is where the bigger difference to previous hexes should be.
> , but the wacky profile didn't seem to make a vast difference,
The designer at DMM explained this to me - the profile is specifically designed to increase their caming range for both placements in horizontal cracks and in vertical parallels.
I've been using them I guess like you; mainly in classic bottle neck placements - and found very similar to you: that they are nice but seemingly not that different from rockcentrics or even classic hexes. But I'm going to try them now in more funky placements. I guess I'm spoilt by having a full rack of cams - so in a parallel crack or a horizontal break I'd just stuff a cam in. But for people who don't own cams yet, or if you are going light in winter or alps and only take the torque nuts - I guess that's when the bigger camming range comes into play. So I'm going to have to fiddle a bit with them to see if I can bring that bit of their design into play as that is where the bigger difference to previous hexes should be.
In reply to TobyA:
Yes, that sounds fair. As you say it will be interesting to see how they go into less conventional spots - I've not really had chance to experiment there yet.
What I did find was that, because of the shape, there were somentimes two very clear orientations - with the sling running diagonally top L- bottom R or Top R to bottom L. Because of that i found myself fiddling with the placement a bit more - the price of that flexibility i guess.
Yes, that sounds fair. As you say it will be interesting to see how they go into less conventional spots - I've not really had chance to experiment there yet.
What I did find was that, because of the shape, there were somentimes two very clear orientations - with the sling running diagonally top L- bottom R or Top R to bottom L. Because of that i found myself fiddling with the placement a bit more - the price of that flexibility i guess.
In reply to mattrm: So - any more experience with these so far? Has anyone been placing them as a cam? Any difference?
In reply to mattrm:
None, but mine arrived the other day and I'm out tradding tomorrow evening, so I'll let you know.
None, but mine arrived the other day and I'm out tradding tomorrow evening, so I'll let you know.
In reply to TobyA:
Any idea how they compare to the CAMP carvex? they seem to retain the pivot point mentioned as absent on the WC rockcentrics...
Any idea how they compare to the CAMP carvex? they seem to retain the pivot point mentioned as absent on the WC rockcentrics...
In reply to mattrm:
Gotta say, they dont seem wildly different from rockcentrics to me. The extendable sling makes a lot of sense, but I will be interested to see ehat its longevity will be; it's skinny dyneema so MUST be checked regularly.
Gotta say, they dont seem wildly different from rockcentrics to me. The extendable sling makes a lot of sense, but I will be interested to see ehat its longevity will be; it's skinny dyneema so MUST be checked regularly.
In reply to mattrm:
Well I got them in a few placements this evening. I really like the extendable sling, it's very handy. I'll buy the DMM Dragon cams when they come out for this reason I think. They are pretty like rockcentrics in that they are hexes (obviously), I don't think there is much difference. They do the job and a full set is only £45 for a good range of sizes.
Well I got them in a few placements this evening. I really like the extendable sling, it's very handy. I'll buy the DMM Dragon cams when they come out for this reason I think. They are pretty like rockcentrics in that they are hexes (obviously), I don't think there is much difference. They do the job and a full set is only £45 for a good range of sizes.
In reply to mattrm: I had my set out on the rock for the first time yesterday. I did find them much easier than Rockcentrics to place in camming mode, especially in vertical placements. I like them, and I'm glad I switched.
In "short" mode the extendable sling feels nearly as long as the sling on my old Rockcentrics. Racked on my gear loops, though, they don't seem to dangle any lower than a 20cm QD, or a WC zero, so although individually they are as musical as the Rockcentrics- if not more so - they seem to "chime" less in actual use since they bunch up with the other gear.
The extension is useful to have but it's nowhere near as slick as on DMM's cams - for fairly obvious reasons, I suppose. I can't help thinking that when the skinny sling wears out and you have to re-sling them with cord, the holes won't be big enough to accommodate a double thickness so you will be forced to lose that feature. I'm wondering whether it wouldn't have been better to have had four holes in the narrowest face, to allow the slings to run smoother ie without running against each other, and to make it possible to make an extendable sling with cord. I suppose that might require making that face a bit thicker in order to retain strength - and it probably wouldn't be possible at all on the smaller sizes. I wonder whether DMM might offer a service to re-sling them with skinny tape, when the time came?
In "short" mode the extendable sling feels nearly as long as the sling on my old Rockcentrics. Racked on my gear loops, though, they don't seem to dangle any lower than a 20cm QD, or a WC zero, so although individually they are as musical as the Rockcentrics- if not more so - they seem to "chime" less in actual use since they bunch up with the other gear.
The extension is useful to have but it's nowhere near as slick as on DMM's cams - for fairly obvious reasons, I suppose. I can't help thinking that when the skinny sling wears out and you have to re-sling them with cord, the holes won't be big enough to accommodate a double thickness so you will be forced to lose that feature. I'm wondering whether it wouldn't have been better to have had four holes in the narrowest face, to allow the slings to run smoother ie without running against each other, and to make it possible to make an extendable sling with cord. I suppose that might require making that face a bit thicker in order to retain strength - and it probably wouldn't be possible at all on the smaller sizes. I wonder whether DMM might offer a service to re-sling them with skinny tape, when the time came?
In reply to Martin W:
Martin,
Thanks for the comments - we are looking at making the extension slicker whilst maintaining strength and versatility.
We will of course re-sling any Torque nuts when neccesary - but the 8mm dyneema proved to be rather robust. Check out - http://rockclimbingcompany.blogspot.com/2009/07/photo-on-left-shows-dmm-tor... it shows an 8mm dyneema sling that has pulled through a Torque Nut.
It is a really interesting webbing - one strange thing is that is retaining more of its strength in knots than standard 10-12mm dyneema webbing.
I don't have costs for the re-slinging, but it fair and reasonable - we won't exploit the fact that you have to come to us to have it done.
Regards
Simon
Martin,
Thanks for the comments - we are looking at making the extension slicker whilst maintaining strength and versatility.
We will of course re-sling any Torque nuts when neccesary - but the 8mm dyneema proved to be rather robust. Check out - http://rockclimbingcompany.blogspot.com/2009/07/photo-on-left-shows-dmm-tor... it shows an 8mm dyneema sling that has pulled through a Torque Nut.
It is a really interesting webbing - one strange thing is that is retaining more of its strength in knots than standard 10-12mm dyneema webbing.
I don't have costs for the re-slinging, but it fair and reasonable - we won't exploit the fact that you have to come to us to have it done.
Regards
Simon
>
> Thanks for the comments - we are looking at making the extension slicker whilst maintaining strength and versatility.
>
> Does anyone find it strange ( or worrying ) that in this day and age that a market leader is looking to modify / develop a product after the said item has been on sale for a little over a month. I wonder why the problems were not found by the field trials carried out by the manufacturer prior to the product launch.
> Thanks for the comments - we are looking at making the extension slicker whilst maintaining strength and versatility.
>
> Does anyone find it strange ( or worrying ) that in this day and age that a market leader is looking to modify / develop a product after the said item has been on sale for a little over a month. I wonder why the problems were not found by the field trials carried out by the manufacturer prior to the product launch.
In reply to NYork:
Sounds like a tweak to improve rather than something to worry about or fix a problem. Thinking seriously about feedback from customers might be part of how they became a market leader.
Sounds like a tweak to improve rather than something to worry about or fix a problem. Thinking seriously about feedback from customers might be part of how they became a market leader.
In reply to md@r:
Minor or major modification aside , I am still surprised that the problem was discovered by people having purchased the product rather than the field tests by the manufacturer
Minor or major modification aside , I am still surprised that the problem was discovered by people having purchased the product rather than the field tests by the manufacturer
A design review after sale to customers is a good policy.
Feedback from some of the thousands of paying customers might pick up something different from usage by tens of testers.
Feedback from some of the thousands of paying customers might pick up something different from usage by tens of testers.
In reply to Simon Marsh:
I was considering buying some - do I go ahead or wait to see if there will be a modification?
I was considering buying some - do I go ahead or wait to see if there will be a modification?
In reply to
>" Feedback from some of the thousands of paying customers "
Strange my computer is saying 30 ish posts including the original, my 3 entries, your 2 and some other general comments.
The manufacturer is hardly looking to modify in response to feedback from " thousands of paying customers" maybe 1 or 2
>" Feedback from some of the thousands of paying customers "
Strange my computer is saying 30 ish posts including the original, my 3 entries, your 2 and some other general comments.
The manufacturer is hardly looking to modify in response to feedback from " thousands of paying customers" maybe 1 or 2
In reply to NYork: I hardly think this site is the source of all DMMs customer feedback! Do you also imagine that the posts on here represent total sales of torque nuts?
Just thinking, the doubled up sling is a really good idea (it annoys me that my WC Friends don't have it) and the torque nut is the first use for passive gear rather than cams.
Lots of people make up their own extendable quickdraws with doubled/tripled up slings on quickdraws. Sling often held captive by an elastic band which is dangerous if you clip with sling held by band but not going through carabiner.
How about applying the extendable sling idea to quick draws?
Might be nice for gear freaks.
It would require a carabiner with an additional non opening load bearing loop at the narrow end through which a doubled up tape could be threaded through and sewn into a sling. Advantage - sling held captive by load bearing loop, disadvantages - possibly heavy and sling replaced by manufacturer (sewn) or user (knot).
Lots of people make up their own extendable quickdraws with doubled/tripled up slings on quickdraws. Sling often held captive by an elastic band which is dangerous if you clip with sling held by band but not going through carabiner.
How about applying the extendable sling idea to quick draws?
Might be nice for gear freaks.
It would require a carabiner with an additional non opening load bearing loop at the narrow end through which a doubled up tape could be threaded through and sewn into a sling. Advantage - sling held captive by load bearing loop, disadvantages - possibly heavy and sling replaced by manufacturer (sewn) or user (knot).
In reply to NYork:
"from some of" (quoting myself) probably equates to tiny fractions of one percent of users. I wouldn't criticise a manufacturer for listening to comments.
"from some of" (quoting myself) probably equates to tiny fractions of one percent of users. I wouldn't criticise a manufacturer for listening to comments.
In reply to md@r:
But the elastic thingy really isn't necessary.
As you said above - you already can!
Re destructing the Torques: The failure mode on the tourque nuts is pretty amazing - any idea what a sling made of that dyneema would fail at if the nut wasn't involved?
> Lots of people make up their own extendable quickdraws with doubled/tripled up slings on quickdraws. Sling often held captive by an elastic band which is dangerous if you clip with sling held by band but not going through carabiner.
But the elastic thingy really isn't necessary.
> How about applying the extendable sling idea to quick draws?
> Might be nice for gear freaks.
> Might be nice for gear freaks.
As you said above - you already can!
Re destructing the Torques: The failure mode on the tourque nuts is pretty amazing - any idea what a sling made of that dyneema would fail at if the nut wasn't involved?
In reply to NYork:
NYork,
It is probably worth pointing out that we have been developing the Torque Nuts for 18 months and making the sling action as slick as possible is something we have constantly been trying to improve since we made the very first samples about 18 months ago.
We constantly look at tweaking product and because all our hardware is made in-house this is something we can action much faster than most manufacturers.
You will never get a free running action on the sling because of the realively tight angles and the amount of surface contact - not to mention other criteria such as the overall strength of the unit; make the holes too big or too wide apart in order to free up the sling and you weaken the whole structure.
We went through a whole variety of slings before settling on the current 8mm sling - bear in mind that at the time we were doing this no-one else had sewn fixed width slings as narrow as this. The sling was specifically developed for us and we sew it in-house.
The inside radiuses of the holes are CNCed by a rather advanced machine to reduce friction and we tried every possible permutation of threading to maximise the ease of slippage.
There is no doubt that we would like the slings to run totally free and we will continue to look for ways that the current action can be improved. It has been nice to see the production units turn out stronger than the prototypes/models predicted because this gives us options that we can look at such as widening the diameter of the holes or increasing the distance between the holes - when and if this happens it will be after plenty of testing.
Petellis: The slings in an open format break at 23.5kN to 27kN.
I hope this helps
Regards
Simon
DMM
> (In reply to md@r)
>
> Minor or major modification aside , I am still surprised that the problem was discovered by people having purchased the product rather than the field tests by the manufacturer
>
> Minor or major modification aside , I am still surprised that the problem was discovered by people having purchased the product rather than the field tests by the manufacturer
NYork,
It is probably worth pointing out that we have been developing the Torque Nuts for 18 months and making the sling action as slick as possible is something we have constantly been trying to improve since we made the very first samples about 18 months ago.
We constantly look at tweaking product and because all our hardware is made in-house this is something we can action much faster than most manufacturers.
You will never get a free running action on the sling because of the realively tight angles and the amount of surface contact - not to mention other criteria such as the overall strength of the unit; make the holes too big or too wide apart in order to free up the sling and you weaken the whole structure.
We went through a whole variety of slings before settling on the current 8mm sling - bear in mind that at the time we were doing this no-one else had sewn fixed width slings as narrow as this. The sling was specifically developed for us and we sew it in-house.
The inside radiuses of the holes are CNCed by a rather advanced machine to reduce friction and we tried every possible permutation of threading to maximise the ease of slippage.
There is no doubt that we would like the slings to run totally free and we will continue to look for ways that the current action can be improved. It has been nice to see the production units turn out stronger than the prototypes/models predicted because this gives us options that we can look at such as widening the diameter of the holes or increasing the distance between the holes - when and if this happens it will be after plenty of testing.
Petellis: The slings in an open format break at 23.5kN to 27kN.
I hope this helps
Regards
Simon
DMM
In reply to petellis:
I think the elastic band reduces the tangle and doing it in metal would be neater. Might still be a naff product if anybody did it.
It's a pretty amazing failure mechanism - plastic frabric ripping through metal!
I think the elastic band reduces the tangle and doing it in metal would be neater. Might still be a naff product if anybody did it.
It's a pretty amazing failure mechanism - plastic frabric ripping through metal!
In reply to md@r:
same failure mode as for a normal hex or rockcentric, have a look at youtube - UIAA destruction testing.
same failure mode as for a normal hex or rockcentric, have a look at youtube - UIAA destruction testing.
In reply to Simon Marsh:
That looks like righteous dyneema; any chance of sewing it up as a "contact" sling? I have a feeling it may resist fluffing better than the Mammut slings I currently use for slingdraws.
That looks like righteous dyneema; any chance of sewing it up as a "contact" sling? I have a feeling it may resist fluffing better than the Mammut slings I currently use for slingdraws.
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
Do you keep Torques in the shop? If not, I'll bring mine in sometime to let you have a look.
Do you keep Torques in the shop? If not, I'll bring mine in sometime to let you have a look.
In reply to Simon Marsh: Hi Simon, just a quick one - does anywhere sell them as individual items rather than a set - I took a look at them on the weekend and am interested in getting just the two larger sizes but only found shops selling the full sets...
In reply to mike kann: http://www.needlesports.com/acatalog/Mail_Order_Wide_Crack_Protection_19.ht... - currently out of stock of size 2, according to that page.
In reply to Martin W: Tah for that... the one website I forgot to look at...
In reply to mattrm:
I brought a set this weekend. I used to use BD wired hexes but they were a but cr*p I ditched them. Instead I carry loads of cams.
Like I said I brought a set of these and I can't believe them. They are absolutley awesome. I'm really impressed with them and struggle to see how I could ever have coped without them. The doubled sling I did find a little stiff, but after reading above I can see they are working on that. However I really don't think that this takes away from them at all. They cam really well which was something I wasn't expecting.
Overall they've found a permenant place on my rack now, definatly a good purchase
I brought a set this weekend. I used to use BD wired hexes but they were a but cr*p I ditched them. Instead I carry loads of cams.
Like I said I brought a set of these and I can't believe them. They are absolutley awesome. I'm really impressed with them and struggle to see how I could ever have coped without them. The doubled sling I did find a little stiff, but after reading above I can see they are working on that. However I really don't think that this takes away from them at all. They cam really well which was something I wasn't expecting.
Overall they've found a permenant place on my rack now, definatly a good purchase
In reply to mike kann:
Not the only one Mike. These guys have all sizes in stock.
http://cragxclimbing.com/climbing-gear/nutscamshexes/nutshexes/dmm-torque-n...
I was expecting to post that there were loads and you hadn't looked very hard but I'm surprised to have to agree with you. Surely Needlesports and CragX can't be the only shops out there to stock them individually?
Iain
> (In reply to Martin W) Tah for that... the one website I forgot to look at...
Not the only one Mike. These guys have all sizes in stock.
http://cragxclimbing.com/climbing-gear/nutscamshexes/nutshexes/dmm-torque-n...
I was expecting to post that there were loads and you hadn't looked very hard but I'm surprised to have to agree with you. Surely Needlesports and CragX can't be the only shops out there to stock them individually?
Iain
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