UKC

I've just seen this logbook posting about Dreadnought, Berry Head:

"Great route but not worth 3 stars unless it gets a clean - pitch 2 was slimy and muddy, pith 3 loose rock and pitch 4 vegetated. Great moves and positions though, Emily almost got the crux clean. Doing some of Rainbow bridge after was even more fun!
Chad123 - AltLd O/S - 12/Aug/09 with Emily"

"Unless it gets a clean" - Is Chad123 expecting his mother to abseil down the cliff with a vacuum cleaner, duster and feather brush after she's cleaned his bedroom for him?

The conditions Chad123 describes are much the same as when I led the first ascent 40 years ago with much less gear.

"Emily almost got the crux clean" - is this a new expression to describe when aid is used?

To Chad and Emily - The Old Redoubt, Berry Head, is not a maintained climbing wall - it's a place for adventure climbing. Rather than complain, lets see you on the end of an abseil rope to help with any cleaning that's needed.

In reply to Frank Cannings:

He doesn't agree with the three stars...

In reply to Frank Cannings: Dreadnought sounds like a fantastic adventure. In fact, if it wasn't slimy, loose and vegetated, I'd be a bit disaapointed. In fact, I'd probably ask for my money back.

In reply to Frank Cannings:

Reads as an even-handed description rather than a complaint.

In reply to Frank Cannings:

Ah, the youth of today. You bust a gut for them, scrimp and save and scrub floors so they can go to university to study marketing and popular music studies. And what do they do? Go on your route with their jeans around their arses, hoods pulled tightly around their heads and they...complain! And they won't even give it three stars!

In reply to Frank Cannings:

I think the real question here is, how do we define a three-star route? And how has that definition changed over the years? Personally I have come to enjoy vegetated / dirty / chossy routes for their own right.

In reply to Frank Cannings:
I would read "Emily almost got the crux clean" as meaning "Emily fell/rested on gear on the crux".

Pete.

In reply to Frank Cannings:

LMAO at your comments. Some people do not get real climbing do they?

In reply to Frank Cannings:
One more, LMAO

In reply to PeteH:

Deciphering relationship logic it means "I didn't want to upset my girlfriend by telling everyone in the world that she needed to use aid"

In reply to Frank Cannings:

I thought it meant Emily was up there with the duster

In reply to Only a hill:
Personally I have come to enjoy vegetated / dirty / chossy routes for their own right.

That is about as far removed from the ethos of a 3 star route as is possible to get. Unique moves, situation, handholds on quality rock a real wow factor... not an urgh that was sh**.

In reply to muppetfilter:
You have missed my point, which is that 'Unique moves, situation, handholds on quality rock a real wow factor' do not have to rely on absolutely clean rock, and that these qualities can also exist on routes in their virgin state.

In reply to Henry Loveless:

Unfair and rather small minded comment on your part really.

In reply to Frank Cannings:


hear hear!

In reply to Henry Loveless:

I don't think Frank either needs or wants to remind people of the great new routes he did the first ascents of. Incidently venturing onto an unknown cliff with gear as rudimentary that most of the wall trained climbers would refuse to set up a top rope with let alone lead such an undertaking on.

In reply to Frank Cannings:

Comments sound fair to me. All he's said is why he doesn't think your route is worth three stars, a reasonable opinion. Get over it.

In reply to andy moles:

LOL.

And implied that Rainbow Bridge was more fun. Sounds about right to me.

In reply to andy moles:

It is quite amusing to read Andy Moles' and other posts which assume that Frank my be precious about one of his many, many, classic sea cliff adventures. Before gobbing off I suggest reviewing the historical sections of a selections of SW climbing guides. I have done the route (have you?) and defo 3 stars irrespective of how "clean" it is. When I want clean rock I go sport climbing (as I often do), for a proper climbing adventure and all that entails you can't go far wrong looking for routes by Pat Littlejohn, Mick Fowler, Frank Cannings, Crispin Waddy etc

In reply to kevin stephens:

I haven't done the route, and I didn't offer any opinion on it. Is it unacceptable that someone else doesn't agree it's worth three stars? I also don't care what he's done, having climbed stuff doesn't give immunity to being an arse. There was no need to publically have a go at someone about those comments. If it wasn't preciousness it certainly looked like it.

In reply to Frank Cannings:

Of course it is worth ***, magnificent line, awesome positions, lots of great climbing. A bit of bird poo, the odd sea cabbage or smattering of loose rock (personally I don't remember any) add to the adventure - and adventure is what it is!


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:
It's threads like this that lead people to keep their logbooks private

In reply to Toreador:

No its not, its just an interesting discussion.

In reply to Toreador:

Exactly. I don't think it's fair that Chad123 should be dragged over the coals regardless of how many new routes Mr Channing has put up.

In reply to The Pylon King:

Chad and Emily may not agree

In reply to andy moles:

No, of course not. The point is that his grounds for judging it are "wrong". Adventure routes are expected to have some dodgy rock and birdshit etc.That's why they are labelled as such and that's part of the adventure.
It's a bit like going to a rugby match and complaining because the ball isn't round.

In reply to Postmanpat:

Well it would be if you wanted to read Chad123's comments as being complaining.

But his comments aren't and it's not.

In reply to muppetfilter:



Shows what you know.

In reply to Toreador:

Agree entirely. I put in a mixture of comments - some only have meaning to me, other which may be of interest to others, but certainly don't expect them to be disected on the forums. Very poor form indeed by the OP!

In reply to Frank Cannings:

This is hilarious! Who would thought that a couple of my observations on a route would lead to a ridiculous thread - some of you people just love an argument! Thanks for your comments Frank, blame your brother Pat- he introduced me to climbing back at Aylestone school in the early 90s! I stick to my original point that if a route is nice moves on clean, solid rock then it should get more stars than an equally good line that is dirty, wet or loose. I live in Edinburgh and had three excellent days ticking classics in Devon, routes that I had planned to do for quite a few years (yes I am attracted by three star routes but what is wrong with that? Common sense!) - of the other ones I did - Fay, Out of the Blue and Diamond Smiles were on clean rock with lovely moves, Heart of the Sun was mostly clean with some perfect slab climbing (loose top half of top pitch) and I'm afraid Dreadnought was the least clean hence the above comments. It is a great route but on the day felt a bit harder than it could have....eg top pitch would be great but large clumps of vegetation detract from the climbing...surely I am allowed to say that as we found it, it felt like 2 stars? With a clean (which is difficult from Edinburgh!) would be mega classic. We were relieved to finish and go for a swim as opposed to the Sharpnose routes which we finished buzzing....

I confess we are "tourist" climbers but we both work hard in the week and like to maximise our holidays and weekends....why climb loose rock when you can climb solid rock. This is a similar story to last Sunday when I went to Fast Castle and did two E3s - one 3 stars, one 2 stars - both were really hard work due to cleaning holds, slimy lichen and digging out gear from grass filled cracks- not really the kind of climbing I strive for. I like to climb on sight and ground up so these routes are hard in this style - the easier routes we did were all clean and worth the stars. Abbed down a three star E5 to check out gear and the super dodgy peg protecting the crux (had no pegs with me to replace) and loose holds put me off - surely a)dangerous and b) not 3 stars in current condition.....I rest my case your honour....

Emily lead Diamond Smiles clean the day before Dreadnought which is possibly a harder E3 than Dreadnought, and if the crux hadn't been really slimy she would have done this one clean too - she was actually on the jug after all the hard climbing but grabbed the peg quickly to clip it because she felt she was going to slip off - hardly an aid point! Hence "almost got the crux clean"...I'd rather she did this than broke her leg slamming into the corner, not exactly an easy retreat from this one!

Anyway the logbook is more for my notes not an analysis....sorry Frank if you disagree with my opinion and to everyoone else - go climbing people! Cheers Andy for backing me up - you too are getting shot down for some reason....

Laters, Chad

In reply to Chris the Tall: I disagree, if its ok for somebody to express an opinion then its just as ok for somebody to disagree with it. If you don't want your opinion challenged then by all means keep it to yourself.
Just because this happens to be Franks own route doesn't mean he can't defend its quality, which the majority of people posting on here who have done it agree with.
What are opinions for? They are just that opinions and Frank has every right to express his own on the route, an opinion I for one would heartily endorse.

In reply to Chad123:

Taken in good part!

Probably best for all to just leave it now?

Taken in good part? Eh? If this is a wind up/troll whatever it's a pretty pointless waste of everyones time.....

In reply to Al Evans:

Well that's that then, with the Hearty Endorsement of Al Evans, one-time climber and monarch of the forum, the opinion is surely beyond reproach.

Not that anyone suggested the OP didn't have a right to defend his route, particularly in the mature and courteous manner that he did.

In reply to Al Evans:
OK, he has a right to defend the quality of his route, and even more right to point out that someone complaining that a route is dirty such have a think about how the route would get cleaned.

But it's poor form to pick up on comments relating to the second. The logbook system is a great piece of work and it's interesting to see other people comments on routes you've just done. It would be a shame if more people start hiding their logbooks for fear of this sort of consequence.

In reply to Frank Cannings: Were you very bored on the day that you spent looking at logbooks and slagging off the comments that you found? Alternatively, perhaps you know Chad and Emily personally and wanted to expose these charlatans. They probably weren't even wearing nails, dammit!

In reply to andy moles: For gods sake Andy, did you ever read my post before you decided to get personal, you notice I did not get personal, you are really pissing me off now. All I said was if anybody puts a comment on a route in the public arena (i.e the logbooks) then anybody else is allowed to express a different opinion also in the public arena. What is your problem?

In reply to Al Evans:
I've just looked at the posted shots of the route, and have to say that if I could do it (which I very much doubt) I would guess I'd give it 3 stars and consider it an adventure too! Good to see that Frank is still up & about, but surely Frank this isn't the first time you've had criticism of one of your routes? If it is, your climbing pedigree is even more immaculate than I thought.

In reply to Chad123:

Chad I don't think you even needed a response of so much detail, this is more about an 'old boy' getting pissy over someone's opinion.

Your entitled to hate or love every bit of this or any other route and someone 'calling you out' in this way is just plain petty. It's your logbook for gods sake!

Adventure is brilliant, some of the craziest fun routes I have been on have been dusty loose rock epics that bring to life the adventure in everyone who climbs them... all of which shared the common trait that they weren't '3 star routes'. It's only the odd exception that breaks this rule because a section has such great climbing as to outweigh the filthy pitches. Sure, the filthy pitches are adventurous and entertaining, but for a very different reason.

I doubt anyone goes out seeking loose rock because you think THAT is what makes a route. If a route is good IN SPITE of that, well great, 3 stars it is..it's hardly controversial to point out loose rock though is it!

In reply to Chad123: Chad, a bit off-topic, but something I noticed a while back has come back to the fore due to this thread!

Are you following me, or am I following you?

I'd hazard a guess that at least 50% of the routes I've done, you've also done! How was Freak-Out? We thought about it the weekend before last but opted for a route on The Bendy as time was short.

The weirdest thing is that I don't think I've ever bumped in to you, well, not to my knowledge anyway.

P.S. I like clean routes too - The Bendy is pretty manky!

In reply to Jim Nevill: and Silum. It's not about Frank getting pissy about one of his routes, its about the forums being open for a different point of view on a particular route that has been criticised in the logbooks.
Everybody surely has the right to do this and the only reason it has got personalised apart from Andys personal attack on me, is that Frank happens to be the first ascencionist.

In reply to Al Evans:

I just wonder why Frank felt the need to personally 'out' Chad to make his point because not everyone agree's with the quality of the route. Surely each and every one of us is entitled to our opinion, especially if you're one of the 9/10 that actually prefers routes with solid rock.

I don't record many climbs but I have stated on quite a few routes in the logbook where I thought 3 stars weren't exactly deserved. I'd find it quite humorous to then see the first ascentionist trying to defend his climb on the forums, it comes off as pathetic. Even more so telling us we just don't see the 'adventure in it all'.

In reply to Frank Cannings:

I guess this thread may have gone a whole different way, or died earlier if Chad had typed "Unless it cleans up with more traffic" rather than "Unless it gets a clean". Indeed having done the route I wouldn't be surprised if this is what Chad had meant, cleaning the traverse on an ab would be impossible and hardly in the spirit of the full on adventure that Dreadnaught should be.

It certainly wasn't dirty when I did it around 25 years ago - of course this sort of route was much more popular in those days before the lure of sport climbing. However a hold did come off as my quick draw was within an inch of the peg; massive pendulum and a few days nursing bruised ribs in my tent.

As with the other thread on Raven Thirlmere, the message for the best of UK trad/adventure climbing is: "Use it or Lose it"

The rather narrow criteria for 3 star status based on manicured rock hardly does justice to this and similar adventures. Having said that Chad does say "Great Route"

Get on it - and don't forget your toothbrush!!

In reply to Silum: Point taken, it should be possible to defend a routes reputation without mentioning the name of the person disputing its right to that reputation.

In reply to Silum:


It's a good way of getting pioneering climbers onto the forums; they all have good tales to tell.

In this spirit I might start a thread dismissing Cenotaph Corner as a pointless eliminate..

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: I don't think you would get Joe bothering to reply, in any case CC has been dissed enough already on this forum.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Quite right. And what about all those crappy crack climbs at Trowbarrow that are always on the point of falling down...

In reply to Al Evans:
You are correct Al - I haven't met Frank for many years now, but remember him as a smashing guy, no criticism of him intended.

In reply to Dave Garnett: Lol, they have been for 35 years Dave

In reply to Chad123:

These climbs get done far more often, so it's not surprising they're cleaner. Although not all ascents get logged on UKC, the numbers of repeats are probably proportional to the total ...

Dreadnought has a total of 17 logged ascents (only 3 this year and none at all last year). Compare to the Sharpnose routes: Fay 40, Break on Through 43, Diamond Smiles 40, Out of the Blue (admittedly a lower grade) 100.

It stands to reason there will be more loose rock, vegetation, corroded fixed gear etc. on long, adventurous multi-pitch routes that get relatively few ascents. IMO we shouldn't be too quick to demote routes of this sort.

In reply to Frank Cannings:

Thanks for your post Frank.

Mick Ryan
Senior Editor
UKClimbing.com

In reply to Frank Cannings:

In my experience one person's acceptable condition is another person's chossy nightmare.

Take for example Savage God at Blackchurch. Is it a three star route? In my opinion YES, other's would call it no stars.

In reply to Fultonius:

Yeah I had noticed you doing lots of similar routes too! Kind of inevitable seeing as we both climb similar grades in summer and winter and both live in Scotland, I would guess you too live in the southern belt somewhere - no-one would travel to climb in the dolerite quarries! Also you are (wisely) drawn by 3 star routes, hopefully those on clean rock.... Freak out is brilliant by the way, well worth a trip up north....

In reply to Fultonius:
PS How did you like the Grand Wall at Squamish? The Sword pitch is pretty out there isn't it? My fingers were uncurling at the top of the layback and quite runout too.... Jealous you did Freeway, that was one I hoped to do, but did Millenium Falcon instead....

In reply to Fultonius:

PPS Just looked at your logbook in more detail and you are definitely following me! I went to Squamish and Lofoten first for starters....hoping to get to Mingulay and Pabbay next summer so I'll give you that one...I'm also going with Glasgow resident or nearby?

In reply to Chad123: You wouldn't believe the amount of times I do a route and later think - I bet Chad's already done it! More often than not you have. Amusingly, when I put Freeway in the log I was like: "Yes...my nemesis hasn't done it...wohoo!!"

Grand wall was amazing - we were marginally underwhelmed by Squamish in the first week (we'd come directly from Lofoten) and grand wall definitely restored the faith a bit! I found the moves just above the split pillar belay a bit tricky, but just put the foot down on the final corner and got the chains no worries!


Yep, I'm Glasgow based, so slippy dolerite is my bread and butter (the grippy stuff at Neist Point on Skye is waaay better though!

In reply to Chad123:

i don't see anything wrong with your comments.....much better that people actualy put comments into the logbooks which improves them as a resource. you seem to have provided more info than all the other people put together!

In reply to Morgan Woods: Cheers - I do get carried away with my comments sometimes! I found this whole thread amusing rather than annoying, just hope Frank isn't plotting his revenge somewhere....

In reply to Fultonius:

Nice! Glad to be someones Nemesis! I love granite and have to say the Lofoten rock is just amazing - rough and featured. It does make the Squamish rock seem not as good and the setting is somewhat nicer too! Glad I went to Squamish first, loved them both at the time....

In reply to Chad123: We did 1 week in Mingulay, 3 in Lofoten and 3 in Squamish, with only about 4 days where climbing was impossible due to rain - I think we maybe just got to the saturation point of super-quality routes!

I wish there were more routes left for us to do in Lofoten, as I'd love to go back, but we did almost everything we wanted to, so there's not much left!

Well, there's always Storr Pillaren!

In reply to Frank Cannings:
i normally get my mum to abb down and smear the crux with dog t**d to make sure i get the 4* star feeling. i love climbing through crap. anyone that wants to climb on clean rock with great friction needs to get out more.

In reply to Frank Cannings: If its not clean why doesn't he clean for the next climbers (say 5 years hence) or is it beyond him/her ? take about no public spirit !! If all climbers helped to clean one crag a year no doubt the crags would be in better condition.

In reply to wolfman:

My guess is that you've never been to the Old Redoubt