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The comments in the High Rocks thread are an indication that the overuse of chalk is resulting in staining of rocks to the extent that it is becoming a problem.
In my opinion it certainly seems to have been getting worse in recent years. Why is this? Could it be due to more and more indoor climbers making their first moves into the outdoors and bringing the habit with them?
You now see it splashed about liberally even on easy grade climbs. Most of these climbs have been done regularly for decades, in cases for nearly a century without the use of chalk, so why has it now become a necessity?
As is allured to in that thread the public are starting to comment on it, and it is suspected that some landowners are also unhappy.
Surely nobody can think it's OK to leave rock covered with white splodges? There has been an argument that it is not permanent like say paint, and will weather off, but I don't think that argument holds up anymore, because repeated use of climbs by successive parties, all leaving dabs of chalk is making it a permanent blight.
If we, as climbers, value our environment isn't it time we got our house in order and stopped defacing the rocks like this? It's as bad as leaving litter, bolting or chipping. If we can't do a route without it, it begs the question as to whether we sould be doing it at all? Which is more important, our egos or the environment?
Is it time the BMC took a lead on this issue and started to actively discourage it's use?
I would like to hear the argument for it's continued use if this sort of growing rock disfigurement is the result?
In my opinion it certainly seems to have been getting worse in recent years. Why is this? Could it be due to more and more indoor climbers making their first moves into the outdoors and bringing the habit with them?
You now see it splashed about liberally even on easy grade climbs. Most of these climbs have been done regularly for decades, in cases for nearly a century without the use of chalk, so why has it now become a necessity?
As is allured to in that thread the public are starting to comment on it, and it is suspected that some landowners are also unhappy.
Surely nobody can think it's OK to leave rock covered with white splodges? There has been an argument that it is not permanent like say paint, and will weather off, but I don't think that argument holds up anymore, because repeated use of climbs by successive parties, all leaving dabs of chalk is making it a permanent blight.
If we, as climbers, value our environment isn't it time we got our house in order and stopped defacing the rocks like this? It's as bad as leaving litter, bolting or chipping. If we can't do a route without it, it begs the question as to whether we sould be doing it at all? Which is more important, our egos or the environment?
Is it time the BMC took a lead on this issue and started to actively discourage it's use?
I would like to hear the argument for it's continued use if this sort of growing rock disfigurement is the result?
In reply to Trangia:
The grade of the climb is fairly immaterial as novice climbers get sweaty hands as well. They may be working just as hard as a serious E climber.
If the ethic stands for one group of climbers then it stands for all doesn't it? Has anyone seen Meshuga at Black Rocks recently. I am sure that if it is not paint then some serious E grade route working god has been very heavily daubing chalk all over the route and it looks very prominent.
My ego isn't at stake. My life may be though.
I think it is fine. I use chalk. I like the idea of not falling off because of sweaty hands.
These are all just questions of ethics that by definition are a matter of opinion. What about polish on the rock from excessive foot fall. That breaks through the skin of the rock and will cause the rock to weather faster. Lets just stop climbing eh?
> You now see it splashed about liberally even on easy grade climbs
The grade of the climb is fairly immaterial as novice climbers get sweaty hands as well. They may be working just as hard as a serious E climber.
> Could it be due to more and more indoor climbers making their first moves into the outdoors and bringing the habit with them?
If the ethic stands for one group of climbers then it stands for all doesn't it? Has anyone seen Meshuga at Black Rocks recently. I am sure that if it is not paint then some serious E grade route working god has been very heavily daubing chalk all over the route and it looks very prominent.
> Which is more important, our egos or the environment
My ego isn't at stake. My life may be though.
> Surely nobody can think it's OK to leave rock covered with white splodges
I think it is fine. I use chalk. I like the idea of not falling off because of sweaty hands.
> It's as bad as leaving litter, bolting or chipping
These are all just questions of ethics that by definition are a matter of opinion. What about polish on the rock from excessive foot fall. That breaks through the skin of the rock and will cause the rock to weather faster. Lets just stop climbing eh?
In reply to Trangia:
Is it time the BMC took a lead on this issue and started to actively discourage it's use?
The climbing chalk manufacturers and Gordon Brown will love you, More redundancies on the way.
Is it time the BMC took a lead on this issue and started to actively discourage it's use?
The climbing chalk manufacturers and Gordon Brown will love you, More redundancies on the way.
In reply to Al Evans:
Gordon Brown doesn't really care about little people being out of jobs though does he. And the chalk manufacturers probably employ 30 people in Europe (just a guess), with a couple of machines. (no flippancy here, I know I am not one of those employees)
Gordon Brown doesn't really care about little people being out of jobs though does he. And the chalk manufacturers probably employ 30 people in Europe (just a guess), with a couple of machines. (no flippancy here, I know I am not one of those employees)
In reply to EZ: It was tongue in cheek (a bit)
In reply to Al Evans: It's early, I missed it... sorry.
In reply to Trangia:
i haven't been anywhere that i've seen permanent damage by chalk & i've rarely noticed chalk marks unless actually looking for them.
unlike the other replies on this thread i think that if it is becoming a problem we can all do something about it. i will not stop using chalk but i'll consider whether i really need to before dapping my hands into the bag next time. hope this seems a reasonable compromise.
i haven't been anywhere that i've seen permanent damage by chalk & i've rarely noticed chalk marks unless actually looking for them.
unlike the other replies on this thread i think that if it is becoming a problem we can all do something about it. i will not stop using chalk but i'll consider whether i really need to before dapping my hands into the bag next time. hope this seems a reasonable compromise.
In reply to Bret (rock god):
I like that. It'd be cheaper for the individual too. I have a method of changing something about me to remind me. I may move a bracelet to the other wrist as my reminder or something similar.
> but i'll consider whether i really need to before dapping my hands into the bag next time
I like that. It'd be cheaper for the individual too. I have a method of changing something about me to remind me. I may move a bracelet to the other wrist as my reminder or something similar.
In reply to EZ:
I try not to use too much chalk but unfortunately it is my 'climbing twitch'. You can always tell when I am stuck, confused or scared about the next move as I dab into my chalk bag whether I need it or not... suppose it takes my mind of what I am supposed to do..almost a routine.
I do try and stop myself and use as little cha;lk as possible on rutes I am happy with
I try not to use too much chalk but unfortunately it is my 'climbing twitch'. You can always tell when I am stuck, confused or scared about the next move as I dab into my chalk bag whether I need it or not... suppose it takes my mind of what I am supposed to do..almost a routine.
I do try and stop myself and use as little cha;lk as possible on rutes I am happy with
In reply to Bret (rock god):
If everyone did that it would certainly be a positive step.
The "I'm all right Jack, and b*gger the growing trend towards the adverse visual impact of our actions" just reeks of selfishness.
> (In reply to Trangia)
> i will not stop using chalk but i'll consider whether i really need to before dapping my hands into the bag next time. hope this seems a reasonable compromise.
> i will not stop using chalk but i'll consider whether i really need to before dapping my hands into the bag next time. hope this seems a reasonable compromise.
If everyone did that it would certainly be a positive step.
The "I'm all right Jack, and b*gger the growing trend towards the adverse visual impact of our actions" just reeks of selfishness.
In reply to Trangia: I try not to have enough chalk on my hands to really mark the rock as it does seem to be getting worse. Burbage can look like a speckled sea cliff at times.
I'll try to 'think before I dip' next time I'm at the bottom of something. They're not just our crags because we climb on them.
I'll try to 'think before I dip' next time I'm at the bottom of something. They're not just our crags because we climb on them.
In reply to Trangia:
It's good to see indoor climbers getting the blame for yet more things. Surely top ropers are making more of a mess of the rock?
Surely if they are climbing outdoors means they are not just an indoor climber? They have as much right to climb the rock. Just because people have learned to climb indoors doesn't mean they should always wear the tag of indoor climber.
Perhaps because rock climbing is becoming ever more popular. Now there is a lot more traffic not to mention a lot more lower grade climbers. In the past 5 years or so Trevor rocks has gone from being nice high friction pristine rock to extremely polished rock. By necessity more chalk is now required to climb there by most.
As they do about bolts, rubbish and any other climber related activity. The only way the 'public' will be happy is if we stop climbing, take down all bolts and return all the UKs crags to how they were before humans colonised the British isles.
> In my opinion it certainly seems to have been getting worse in recent years. Why is this? Could it be due to more and more indoor climbers making their first moves into the outdoors and bringing the habit with them?
>
>
It's good to see indoor climbers getting the blame for yet more things. Surely top ropers are making more of a mess of the rock?
Surely if they are climbing outdoors means they are not just an indoor climber? They have as much right to climb the rock. Just because people have learned to climb indoors doesn't mean they should always wear the tag of indoor climber.
> You now see it splashed about liberally even on easy grade climbs. Most of these climbs have been done regularly for decades, in cases for nearly a century without the use of chalk, so why has it now become a necessity?
>
>
Perhaps because rock climbing is becoming ever more popular. Now there is a lot more traffic not to mention a lot more lower grade climbers. In the past 5 years or so Trevor rocks has gone from being nice high friction pristine rock to extremely polished rock. By necessity more chalk is now required to climb there by most.
> As is allured to in that thread the public are starting to comment on it, and it is suspected that some landowners are also unhappy.
>
>
As they do about bolts, rubbish and any other climber related activity. The only way the 'public' will be happy is if we stop climbing, take down all bolts and return all the UKs crags to how they were before humans colonised the British isles.
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
>I try not to use too much chalk .. ...as I dab into my chalk bag whether I need it or not... suppose it takes my mind of what I am supposed to do..almost a routine.>
I think many climbers use chalk for that reason.
TS Eliot's comment about cats - 'When in doubt wash' probably goes for climbers 'When in doubt chalk'
Yep, easy on the chalk, both at the crag and wall, nasty stuff to breath.
>I try not to use too much chalk .. ...as I dab into my chalk bag whether I need it or not... suppose it takes my mind of what I am supposed to do..almost a routine.>
I think many climbers use chalk for that reason.
TS Eliot's comment about cats - 'When in doubt wash' probably goes for climbers 'When in doubt chalk'
Yep, easy on the chalk, both at the crag and wall, nasty stuff to breath.
In reply to mary:
But not nasty to eat? It is the same stuff that is added to Saxo's 'Lo-Salt' as an anti-caking agent!
I use the recently noted on the Ben Moon thread method of blowing my hands every dip. It clears excess chalk off and looks magically experienced to total novice groups and children.
> nasty stuff to breath.
But not nasty to eat? It is the same stuff that is added to Saxo's 'Lo-Salt' as an anti-caking agent!
I use the recently noted on the Ben Moon thread method of blowing my hands every dip. It clears excess chalk off and looks magically experienced to total novice groups and children.
In reply to EZ:
Well you could all use POF at places like high rocks, not visible and it will help to protect the rock....
Well you could all use POF at places like high rocks, not visible and it will help to protect the rock....
In reply to Trangia:
i think the problem is maybe worse on southern sandstone as a lot more people are doing routes that are harder for them (i.e plenty of guys and girls on 5c/6a that you wouldn't really see in the trad areas)?
i think a bigger issue on the sandstone is that a lot of climbers do not realize how fragile the rock is. i've seen plenty at harrisons slipping and sliding on the slab at the bottom of the down climb on the right without a care in the world. i don't think it's that they don't care, more that they don't really think about what they are doing or understand the impact they are having.
i think the problem is maybe worse on southern sandstone as a lot more people are doing routes that are harder for them (i.e plenty of guys and girls on 5c/6a that you wouldn't really see in the trad areas)?
i think a bigger issue on the sandstone is that a lot of climbers do not realize how fragile the rock is. i've seen plenty at harrisons slipping and sliding on the slab at the bottom of the down climb on the right without a care in the world. i don't think it's that they don't care, more that they don't really think about what they are doing or understand the impact they are having.
In reply to EZ:
why are you trying to impress novices? are you some sort of neophile?
> (In reply to mary)
> [...]
>
> But not nasty to eat? It is the same stuff that is added to Saxo's 'Lo-Salt' as an anti-caking agent!
>
> I use the recently noted on the Ben Moon thread method of blowing my hands every dip. It clears excess chalk off and looks magically experienced to total novice groups and children.
> [...]
>
> But not nasty to eat? It is the same stuff that is added to Saxo's 'Lo-Salt' as an anti-caking agent!
>
> I use the recently noted on the Ben Moon thread method of blowing my hands every dip. It clears excess chalk off and looks magically experienced to total novice groups and children.
why are you trying to impress novices? are you some sort of neophile?
In reply to Trangia:
I think the root of the problem lies in a general ignorance of what chalk is & what it can do.
It is is a method of drying hands that's all & it's a far from ideal one as it has the unfortunate side-effect of itself reducing friction.
When route climbing the advantages of convenience may make this a compromise worth making.
Most seem to find the advantages of dry hands worth the trade-off.
It dries because the powder has a large surface area ( just like a towel) but to actually remove the moisture it is necessary to remove the chalk, the surface of which it has been absorbed by.
That's why the method always used to be dip & blow.
The blow removes a lot of the (now moist) chalk & minimises the amount that gets on to the rock & therefore the loss of friction.
However it's use has been carried over (by habit?) into bouldering where is no convenience issue so alternative methods of drying the hand can be used. Or those who are wedded to chalk can remove all of it before climbing.
Most climbers now seem unaware of any of this. They believe more chalk means more grip rather than the opposite.
I think the root of the problem lies in a general ignorance of what chalk is & what it can do.
It is is a method of drying hands that's all & it's a far from ideal one as it has the unfortunate side-effect of itself reducing friction.
When route climbing the advantages of convenience may make this a compromise worth making.
Most seem to find the advantages of dry hands worth the trade-off.
It dries because the powder has a large surface area ( just like a towel) but to actually remove the moisture it is necessary to remove the chalk, the surface of which it has been absorbed by.
That's why the method always used to be dip & blow.
The blow removes a lot of the (now moist) chalk & minimises the amount that gets on to the rock & therefore the loss of friction.
However it's use has been carried over (by habit?) into bouldering where is no convenience issue so alternative methods of drying the hand can be used. Or those who are wedded to chalk can remove all of it before climbing.
Most climbers now seem unaware of any of this. They believe more chalk means more grip rather than the opposite.
In reply to i.munro:
The problem on some popular boulder problems is that the holds are so caked with chalk that more chalk is needed to hold onto them, this is especially true of holds that don't easily get wet
The problem on some popular boulder problems is that the holds are so caked with chalk that more chalk is needed to hold onto them, this is especially true of holds that don't easily get wet
In reply to Trangia:
How? This question gets thrown around way too much and doesn't really hold much water. This has nothing to do with protecting the environment, and if you consider yourself an environmentalist you would be campaigning for the ACTUAL environmental issues facing us and not....chalk.
No this just about bursting your bubble. You see a bit of chalk on a route and have nothing else to complain about. Sorry, i just don't see it as a big deal. Certainly in no way permanent as bolts or litter. It rains every other day in our country and almost all that chalk is washed away. Overhangs are a bit of a problem, but again, only if you nothing else to complain about.
>
> It's as bad as leaving litter, bolting or chipping.
> It's as bad as leaving litter, bolting or chipping.
How? This question gets thrown around way too much and doesn't really hold much water. This has nothing to do with protecting the environment, and if you consider yourself an environmentalist you would be campaigning for the ACTUAL environmental issues facing us and not....chalk.
No this just about bursting your bubble. You see a bit of chalk on a route and have nothing else to complain about. Sorry, i just don't see it as a big deal. Certainly in no way permanent as bolts or litter. It rains every other day in our country and almost all that chalk is washed away. Overhangs are a bit of a problem, but again, only if you nothing else to complain about.
In reply to Silum:
Caking chalk onto holds so that it reacts chemically with the sweat and the rock and forms a permanent slippery surface film is as bad as chipping. Not the same as chalk dabs that wash off. We really need to stop this vandalism.
> >
> No this just about bursting your bubble. You see a bit of chalk on a route and have nothing else to complain about. Sorry, i just don't see it as a big deal. Certainly in no way permanent as bolts or litter. It rains every other day in our country and almost all that chalk is washed away. Overhangs are a bit of a problem, but again, only if you nothing else to complain about.
> No this just about bursting your bubble. You see a bit of chalk on a route and have nothing else to complain about. Sorry, i just don't see it as a big deal. Certainly in no way permanent as bolts or litter. It rains every other day in our country and almost all that chalk is washed away. Overhangs are a bit of a problem, but again, only if you nothing else to complain about.
Caking chalk onto holds so that it reacts chemically with the sweat and the rock and forms a permanent slippery surface film is as bad as chipping. Not the same as chalk dabs that wash off. We really need to stop this vandalism.
In reply to Pekkie:
a) Its not permanent, weathering provides for that.
b) Where exactly are you talking about? Specific boulder problems? The OP and certain posts in this thread speak specifically about the general use of chalk, on lower grade routes and up... even the most popular of classics on grit seem to be doing ok, im not seeing this permanent slippery surface film you're on about. Limestone... well if you lot would have your way limestone climbing would be banned. Seriously, vandalism? How do you treat ACTUAL vandalism, punishable by death?
a) Its not permanent, weathering provides for that.
b) Where exactly are you talking about? Specific boulder problems? The OP and certain posts in this thread speak specifically about the general use of chalk, on lower grade routes and up... even the most popular of classics on grit seem to be doing ok, im not seeing this permanent slippery surface film you're on about. Limestone... well if you lot would have your way limestone climbing would be banned. Seriously, vandalism? How do you treat ACTUAL vandalism, punishable by death?
In reply to MattG:
Don't you see the illogic there? You've realised that chalk makes the holds hard to use but you conclude that the solution is...... more chalk?
> The problem on some popular boulder problems is that the holds are so caked with chalk
that more chalk is needed to hold onto them,Don't you see the illogic there? You've realised that chalk makes the holds hard to use but you conclude that the solution is...... more chalk?
In reply to Silum:
I'm talking about, for instance, popular boulder problems on Merseyside & Chesire sandstone. And you do get a permanent slippery film.
What do you mean by 'well if you lot had your way limestone climbing would be banned'? What's the link to overuse of chalk?
And yes, it is vandalism, in the sense that it permanently changes the rock, in the same way that chipping does. I am sure there are some UKCers who would punish rock vandalism with death, or with one of those tortures that Henry the Eighth was so fond of.
I'm talking about, for instance, popular boulder problems on Merseyside & Chesire sandstone. And you do get a permanent slippery film.
What do you mean by 'well if you lot had your way limestone climbing would be banned'? What's the link to overuse of chalk?
And yes, it is vandalism, in the sense that it permanently changes the rock, in the same way that chipping does. I am sure there are some UKCers who would punish rock vandalism with death, or with one of those tortures that Henry the Eighth was so fond of.
In reply to Trangia: I use chalk myself,but have often expressed the sentiments that you have,but I am very much afraid your wasting your time.it will eventually lead to crags being shut by landowners,and then listen to the squeals from the climbing community.
In reply to Trangia: we should just all use Pof
In reply to Pekkie:
I think the boot torture would be particularly appropriate, though on second thought considering modern rock boots most offenders would be used too this
Methods of inflicting the Boot Tortures
Different types of torture were used depending on the victim's crime and social status. There were also different tortures used according to the customs of each country. Various tortures were invented to inflict excruciating pain on the feet. The advantage of these types of torture was that the victim rarely died. The Spanish boot were high boots made of spongy leather had been placed on the culprit's feet, he was tied on to a table near a large fire, and a quantity of boiling water was poured on the boots, which penetrated the leather, ate away the flesh, and even dissolved the bones of the victim. There were several types of the foot press. The foot press consisted of a pair of horizontal iron plates which tightened around the foot by means of a crank mechanism in order to lacerate the flesh and crush the bones of the foot. Variations were added including the addition of hundreds of sharp spikes to the plates and horrifically a crank mechanism was connected to a drill, so that when the instrument was tightened around the foot a hole was drilled in the center of the instep. Foot roasting was also a method commonly used. The soles of the feet were smeared with lard and slowly roasted over red-hot coals. A bellows was used to control the intensity of the heat and a screen could be interposed between the feet and the coals as the victim was questioned. If the questions were not answered satisfactorily, the screen was withdrawn and the naked soles were again exposed to the flames. Foot roasting was inflicted during the persecution of the Knights Templar. Their leader, Jacques de Molay was burnt until his feet were charred to the bone resulting in his foot bones ( metatarsals ) falling to the floo
> (In reply to Silum)
I am sure there are some UKCers who would punish rock vandalism with death, or with one of those tortures that Henry the Eighth was so fond of.I think the boot torture would be particularly appropriate, though on second thought considering modern rock boots most offenders would be used too this
Methods of inflicting the Boot Tortures
Different types of torture were used depending on the victim's crime and social status. There were also different tortures used according to the customs of each country. Various tortures were invented to inflict excruciating pain on the feet. The advantage of these types of torture was that the victim rarely died. The Spanish boot were high boots made of spongy leather had been placed on the culprit's feet, he was tied on to a table near a large fire, and a quantity of boiling water was poured on the boots, which penetrated the leather, ate away the flesh, and even dissolved the bones of the victim. There were several types of the foot press. The foot press consisted of a pair of horizontal iron plates which tightened around the foot by means of a crank mechanism in order to lacerate the flesh and crush the bones of the foot. Variations were added including the addition of hundreds of sharp spikes to the plates and horrifically a crank mechanism was connected to a drill, so that when the instrument was tightened around the foot a hole was drilled in the center of the instep. Foot roasting was also a method commonly used. The soles of the feet were smeared with lard and slowly roasted over red-hot coals. A bellows was used to control the intensity of the heat and a screen could be interposed between the feet and the coals as the victim was questioned. If the questions were not answered satisfactorily, the screen was withdrawn and the naked soles were again exposed to the flames. Foot roasting was inflicted during the persecution of the Knights Templar. Their leader, Jacques de Molay was burnt until his feet were charred to the bone resulting in his foot bones ( metatarsals ) falling to the floo
In reply to Pekkie:
This surely is a southern softie problem mostly.
I raised this a few moths back and got the feeling people thought I should shut up.
Anyway...
I notice chalk caking the key holds on 5c and 6a routes on sand stone as already said.
I see people using chalk when there could surely be no risk of sweaty hands, cold dry days. It seems to be used regardless.
The chalk should be used merely to dry the hands, not used to cake the holds either in the hope of improving grip or for psychological reasons.
In some places it probably does get washed off by rain, but on popular routes it gets reapplied with such regularity that the washing off never happens.
I would prefer if Bowles for e.g. Banned the use of chalk.
[prepres himself for the onslaught]
This surely is a southern softie problem mostly.
I raised this a few moths back and got the feeling people thought I should shut up.
Anyway...
I notice chalk caking the key holds on 5c and 6a routes on sand stone as already said.
I see people using chalk when there could surely be no risk of sweaty hands, cold dry days. It seems to be used regardless.
The chalk should be used merely to dry the hands, not used to cake the holds either in the hope of improving grip or for psychological reasons.
In some places it probably does get washed off by rain, but on popular routes it gets reapplied with such regularity that the washing off never happens.
I would prefer if Bowles for e.g. Banned the use of chalk.
[prepres himself for the onslaught]
In reply to Graham Charman:
Can coloured chalk not be made then? Had it for years in school IIRC. Could simply match the chalk to the rock type eh.
Plus, the added bonus of popular spots like Stanage Pop area would be covered in different coloured holds for different routes making it more indoor wall like. Hey, wouldn't even need a guide book either....
Can coloured chalk not be made then? Had it for years in school IIRC. Could simply match the chalk to the rock type eh.
Plus, the added bonus of popular spots like Stanage Pop area would be covered in different coloured holds for different routes making it more indoor wall like. Hey, wouldn't even need a guide book either....
In reply to Graham Charman:
who are you to say how much peoples hands are allowed to sweat on a particular day, cold or not.
some people, myself included... have extremely well lubricated hands all the time... the thrill and physically exertion of climbing worsens this.
so using chalk is inevitable.
maybe rather than bitching that your rock is getting abused, if you care that much you should be in your shed coming up with a solution.
stop pretending you (and others on this thread/topic) are enlightened higher beings, stop bitching and moaning, and just get on with whatever you want to do, and leave others to their own.
if i want to use cake crumbs instead of chalk i will. you have no right to tell me what i can and cannot do!
rant over
oh.... looks like you were right about that onslaught
who are you to say how much peoples hands are allowed to sweat on a particular day, cold or not.
some people, myself included... have extremely well lubricated hands all the time... the thrill and physically exertion of climbing worsens this.
so using chalk is inevitable.
maybe rather than bitching that your rock is getting abused, if you care that much you should be in your shed coming up with a solution.
stop pretending you (and others on this thread/topic) are enlightened higher beings, stop bitching and moaning, and just get on with whatever you want to do, and leave others to their own.
if i want to use cake crumbs instead of chalk i will. you have no right to tell me what i can and cannot do!
rant over
oh.... looks like you were right about that onslaught
In reply to Dr.Strangeglove:
I expect with a username such as you have that you might actually understand the term neophile but you clearly don't.
I don't climb to impress novices, but I do like to clear excess chalk off my hands. I was really just likening it to the magicians poof of smoke.
> are you some sort of neophile?
I expect with a username such as you have that you might actually understand the term neophile but you clearly don't.
I don't climb to impress novices, but I do like to clear excess chalk off my hands. I was really just likening it to the magicians poof of smoke.
In reply to Pekkie:
its not permanent. Plus, its nothing to do with environmental issues. Lets not confuse ourselves, this isn't the environment we are discussing, this is arm chair climbers with a stick up their ass about the colour 'white' blotting their favourite climbs.
It's not permanent. Maybe, just maybe you have found the singular cases in which it is, but as a general discussion I would love you to enlighten us. Afterall we are talking about chalk use as a whole. Again, I just don't see it as a problem. Sometimes there is chalk on the rock, next time I see it it's gone, as if by magic. The odd roof or boulder problem provides the exception... is this what these wannabe environmentalists are all caught up with? I hope not!
I have never in 7 years of climbing seen holds destroyed because of chalk, especially compared to that of chipping. I have seen polished holds, I have seen polished holds covered in chalk...are you sure you are not confusing this combination for permanent damage? This my friend, is a natural consequence of us all going climbing, not chalk use.
> (In reply to Silum)
>
> I'm talking about, for instance, popular boulder problems on Merseyside & Chesire sandstone. And you do get a permanent slippery film.
>
> I'm talking about, for instance, popular boulder problems on Merseyside & Chesire sandstone. And you do get a permanent slippery film.
its not permanent. Plus, its nothing to do with environmental issues. Lets not confuse ourselves, this isn't the environment we are discussing, this is arm chair climbers with a stick up their ass about the colour 'white' blotting their favourite climbs.
>
> What do you mean by 'well if you lot had your way limestone climbing would be banned'? What's the link to overuse of chalk?
>
No link. Limestone climbing even in moderate use leads to polishing of the rock, far more damaging than mag carbonate that washes away..yet noone pushed this argument... why? Chalks an easy target for those who like to think of themselves as better than others, 'I don't need chalk, why should you?' > What do you mean by 'well if you lot had your way limestone climbing would be banned'? What's the link to overuse of chalk?
>
> And yes, it is vandalism, in the sense that it permanently changes the rock, in the same way that chipping does.
It's not permanent. Maybe, just maybe you have found the singular cases in which it is, but as a general discussion I would love you to enlighten us. Afterall we are talking about chalk use as a whole. Again, I just don't see it as a problem. Sometimes there is chalk on the rock, next time I see it it's gone, as if by magic. The odd roof or boulder problem provides the exception... is this what these wannabe environmentalists are all caught up with? I hope not!
I have never in 7 years of climbing seen holds destroyed because of chalk, especially compared to that of chipping. I have seen polished holds, I have seen polished holds covered in chalk...are you sure you are not confusing this combination for permanent damage? This my friend, is a natural consequence of us all going climbing, not chalk use.
In reply to Silum:
> this is arm chair climbers with a stick up their ass about the colour 'white' blotting their favourite climbs.
>
I've not got a stick up my ass! How dare you! that's just the way I walk. >
In reply to Pekkie:
lol.
I am addressing the general anti-chalk brigade with my comments. I guess we all 'walk funny' on certain issues
lol.
I am addressing the general anti-chalk brigade with my comments. I guess we all 'walk funny' on certain issues
In reply to Pekkie: Sorry... I just read that as:
jk Pekkie, funny though.
> I've not got a stick up my ass! How dare you! that's just the way I talk.
jk Pekkie, funny though.
In reply to Trangia: We should all have to do a course in chalk use yeah?
In reply to Pekkie: Sorry mate. Really was a misread.
It's permanent in the fact it's there all the time but there's very little lasting damage. Just like Mountain Bike tracks have well, tracks all the time, but they're not permanent either.
I can't see a problem myself, for every person who leaves a chalk mark I'd guess a few pick a bit of rubbish up too left by day trippers = Net gain for the local environment!
I can't see a problem myself, for every person who leaves a chalk mark I'd guess a few pick a bit of rubbish up too left by day trippers = Net gain for the local environment!
In reply to Trangia: This is getting far to out of hand this must be atleast the 2nd or 3rd forum I have read in the last 2 weeks moaning about chalk.
If you dont like chalk dont use it! If you do like then use it but dont make the rocks look like the white cliffs of dover!
Job done!
If you dont like chalk dont use it! If you do like then use it but dont make the rocks look like the white cliffs of dover!
Job done!
In reply to mitchellbowen1990: Quite right - chalk is for the hands not the rock
In reply to Trangia:
Anyone not convinced? I will happily show you the results of excessive chalk use at Pex.
Anyone not convinced? I will happily show you the results of excessive chalk use at Pex.
In reply to Pekkie:
Nope, not convinced, wait...what did you do to convince us? Quote a crag?
please enlighten us all. I'm desperate to see the irreversible undeniable unequivocal lasting effects of this ohh so evil combination of magnesium carbonate.
> (In reply to Trangia)
>
> Anyone not convinced? I will happily show you the results of excessive chalk use at Pex.
>
> Anyone not convinced? I will happily show you the results of excessive chalk use at Pex.
Nope, not convinced, wait...what did you do to convince us? Quote a crag?
please enlighten us all. I'm desperate to see the irreversible undeniable unequivocal lasting effects of this ohh so evil combination of magnesium carbonate.
In reply to Silum:
Calm down, calm down! I use chalk all the time. All I am saying is that when it is over-used it can cause lasting problems - and I can show you this on my local crag. There are bouldering venues in the Peak District where you get the same problem. The problem probably arises from beginners and the less experienced who succumb to the delusion that if something helps - eg a little chalk dries sweaty hands when it is hot - then more of it will be better ie caking holds with it.
>
> please enlighten us all. I'm desperate to see the irreversible undeniable unequivocal lasting effects of this ohh so evil combination of magnesium carbonate.
> please enlighten us all. I'm desperate to see the irreversible undeniable unequivocal lasting effects of this ohh so evil combination of magnesium carbonate.
Calm down, calm down! I use chalk all the time. All I am saying is that when it is over-used it can cause lasting problems - and I can show you this on my local crag. There are bouldering venues in the Peak District where you get the same problem. The problem probably arises from beginners and the less experienced who succumb to the delusion that if something helps - eg a little chalk dries sweaty hands when it is hot - then more of it will be better ie caking holds with it.
In reply to Pekkie:
Yes, I use it too but I have become increasing alarmed at the over use. As for crags which are getting spoilt by over use, this applies to most of the popular SS ones.
I am gald that I am not alone with this feeling and a lttle disappointed at the selfishness, arrogance and beligerence shown by those who don't seem to give a sh*t, even if this conceivably could mean the loss of one of the best venues in the SE.
Yes, I use it too but I have become increasing alarmed at the over use. As for crags which are getting spoilt by over use, this applies to most of the popular SS ones.
I am gald that I am not alone with this feeling and a lttle disappointed at the selfishness, arrogance and beligerence shown by those who don't seem to give a sh*t, even if this conceivably could mean the loss of one of the best venues in the SE.
In reply to Trangia:
At what grade do you suggest it's OK to use chalk?
E7 and above?
I - when I was climbing outdoors before I got ill - very rarely used chalk, but I was climbing to about HS level with the occasional VS led or seconded, and a couple of HVS's seconded. Neither of which I used chalk on. In fact I might have merely dusted my hands at the start of a climb, because of still being hot and sweaty from the walk in - eg up to Froggatt
And I'm a wall-bred climber. But I also try to minimise chalk use indoors, but there, I do use it.
However, I don't use anywhere near the amount of chalk that I've seen the hard climbers use on the cutting edge climbs. Perhaps it's the videos of them dabbing holds with chalk, and using loose chalk, that makes people think that smearing rock with chalk is acceptable.
If you are going to campaign against chalk use, you might need to start with the people we look up to as examples.
At what grade do you suggest it's OK to use chalk?
E7 and above?
I - when I was climbing outdoors before I got ill - very rarely used chalk, but I was climbing to about HS level with the occasional VS led or seconded, and a couple of HVS's seconded. Neither of which I used chalk on. In fact I might have merely dusted my hands at the start of a climb, because of still being hot and sweaty from the walk in - eg up to Froggatt
And I'm a wall-bred climber. But I also try to minimise chalk use indoors, but there, I do use it.
However, I don't use anywhere near the amount of chalk that I've seen the hard climbers use on the cutting edge climbs. Perhaps it's the videos of them dabbing holds with chalk, and using loose chalk, that makes people think that smearing rock with chalk is acceptable.
If you are going to campaign against chalk use, you might need to start with the people we look up to as examples.
In reply to Trangia:
Perhaps the best thing the BMC could do in this area is fund some research on exactly under what conditions (if any) chalk can give assistance.
Currently I know of only 2 papers on this subject & they partly contradict each other.
I can't see the top end climbers persisting in the behaviour you describe (although I can't say I've noticed it)if it's throwing away an advantage.
Perhaps the best thing the BMC could do in this area is fund some research on exactly under what conditions (if any) chalk can give assistance.
Currently I know of only 2 papers on this subject & they partly contradict each other.
I can't see the top end climbers persisting in the behaviour you describe (although I can't say I've noticed it)if it's throwing away an advantage.
In reply to i.munro:
The paper that said chalk didn't help climbers was obviously flawed as the controlled circumstances didn't relate to normal chalk use. Chalk very much helps climbers if used properly and overchalking does very much the opposite. What's needed is educatation not research.
The paper that said chalk didn't help climbers was obviously flawed as the controlled circumstances didn't relate to normal chalk use. Chalk very much helps climbers if used properly and overchalking does very much the opposite. What's needed is educatation not research.
In reply to MattG:
No, more cleaning with a fine brush and boffing of the holds with a rag/towel/t-shirt is the way to do it.
> (In reply to i.munro)
>
> The problem on some popular boulder problems is that the holds are so caked with chalk that more chalk is needed to hold onto them, this is especially true of holds that don't easily get wet
>
> The problem on some popular boulder problems is that the holds are so caked with chalk that more chalk is needed to hold onto them, this is especially true of holds that don't easily get wet
No, more cleaning with a fine brush and boffing of the holds with a rag/towel/t-shirt is the way to do it.
In reply to Offwidth:
I'd agree that education is needed but my opinion on the effectiveness of chalk is completely different.
How can we educate if we don't know the truth. All we can do is pass on our bias.
As to the paper to which you refer, the results were exactly what I'd expect to see. Obviously putting a layer of loose powder between two high friction surfaces will act as a lubricant. I'd be amazed if they found any different.
I'd agree that education is needed but my opinion on the effectiveness of chalk is completely different.
How can we educate if we don't know the truth. All we can do is pass on our bias.
As to the paper to which you refer, the results were exactly what I'd expect to see. Obviously putting a layer of loose powder between two high friction surfaces will act as a lubricant. I'd be amazed if they found any different.
In reply to mark_wellin:
The absolute solution is both simple and very cheap - do as all climbers did until just a few decades ago... Unless you wish us to believe that there has been a genetic change in humanity resulting in sweatier hands?
PS. One question, what do chalk addicts do on a rainy day? I can't see the point in drying your sweaty hands when climbing wet rock?
> maybe rather than bitching that your rock is getting abused, if you care that much you should be in your shed coming up with a solution.
The absolute solution is both simple and very cheap - do as all climbers did until just a few decades ago... Unless you wish us to believe that there has been a genetic change in humanity resulting in sweatier hands?
PS. One question, what do chalk addicts do on a rainy day? I can't see the point in drying your sweaty hands when climbing wet rock?
In reply to Trangia:
If we are refering to the High Rocks specificaly then if the landowner is annoyed about it I would expect that he will say something about it at the BMC Meeting at the Bowles on the 11th October 6PM.
The biggest over use of chalk I have seen down there of late is the giant graffitied love heart at the bottom of Lobster not to mention the historical abuse that place suffers from kids who have been known to break in there to drink, light fires, steal and break into cars in the car park (3 occasions i know of this summer). With the arrival of shocking weather today I would say that climbing in the High Rocks will be significantly reduced now untill summer and this should give the rock a chance to return to it's usual state, as it was at the begining of this summer. with people (including myself) using the place more in the last couple of months the chalking will be more noticable, most of the people that i climb with are concious of the amount of chalk they use, but with that place being in close proximity to the train station it gets a high volume of traffic than the Bowles and Harrisons.
I would be more concerned if I was the owner that the chalk was getting in the way of the wedding photo's, but then you can't charge people to climb there and not let them use chalk because others have paid to have there wedding photo's taken.
Also Nicotine alley has been chalked to death since i started climbing at the Bowles and the only errosion i see there is from the ground.
If we are refering to the High Rocks specificaly then if the landowner is annoyed about it I would expect that he will say something about it at the BMC Meeting at the Bowles on the 11th October 6PM.
The biggest over use of chalk I have seen down there of late is the giant graffitied love heart at the bottom of Lobster not to mention the historical abuse that place suffers from kids who have been known to break in there to drink, light fires, steal and break into cars in the car park (3 occasions i know of this summer). With the arrival of shocking weather today I would say that climbing in the High Rocks will be significantly reduced now untill summer and this should give the rock a chance to return to it's usual state, as it was at the begining of this summer. with people (including myself) using the place more in the last couple of months the chalking will be more noticable, most of the people that i climb with are concious of the amount of chalk they use, but with that place being in close proximity to the train station it gets a high volume of traffic than the Bowles and Harrisons.
I would be more concerned if I was the owner that the chalk was getting in the way of the wedding photo's, but then you can't charge people to climb there and not let them use chalk because others have paid to have there wedding photo's taken.
Also Nicotine alley has been chalked to death since i started climbing at the Bowles and the only errosion i see there is from the ground.
In reply to dickie01:
Seesm to me there are 3 ways we (as climbers)
are being affected by this mis & overuse
Having to climb on slippery,soapy holds is inherently annoying & unpleasant.
having to brush holds over & over again ( I'd guess 100s of times a day on popular boulder problems) must contribute to some extent to both polish & erosion (In addition to any damage that may be caused by the chalk itself)
There are areas where the aesthetic issues could result in a ban if other users complain. My impression at Eridge was that the local walkers were not happy & the access situation has always been fragile.
Seesm to me there are 3 ways we (as climbers)
are being affected by this mis & overuse
Having to climb on slippery,soapy holds is inherently annoying & unpleasant.
having to brush holds over & over again ( I'd guess 100s of times a day on popular boulder problems) must contribute to some extent to both polish & erosion (In addition to any damage that may be caused by the chalk itself)
There are areas where the aesthetic issues could result in a ban if other users complain. My impression at Eridge was that the local walkers were not happy & the access situation has always been fragile.
In reply to i.munro:
I can't realy comment on Eridge as I don't realy climb there, and sorry to deviate back to your other thread that you started but was the guy that appoached you a middle aged guy who seemed very keen to say that the manager was in talks at the moment with the BMC and the HR Owner is considering banning climbers, and that he doesn't need the support of climbers paying to get in there as they cause more hassle than he makes money?
Cuz I had a lecture of that sort when I could not produce my membership card because I had lost it (but had signed in) but was able to tell him my members number which they later checked and confirmed. In the period before that tho wher he did'nt believe me I was told "you don't understand" "climbers breaking the fence" etc and when i tried to convey back to him my thoughts about the crime (my friend having his gear stollen whilst setting up a climb, car break ins, vandalism and graffiti) Iwas again reminded "no you don't understand"
Back to the chalk issue:
I have heard there has been some facebook challenge to climb the hardest boulder problem (i'm not sure if this is true) if this is the case then that would be why certain areas are more chalked than others.
I have noticed holds that have crumbled off but these are mostly on old climbs that have not been climbed for along time and they don't have any chalk marks on them (Too Hard for Dave)
I can't realy comment on Eridge as I don't realy climb there, and sorry to deviate back to your other thread that you started but was the guy that appoached you a middle aged guy who seemed very keen to say that the manager was in talks at the moment with the BMC and the HR Owner is considering banning climbers, and that he doesn't need the support of climbers paying to get in there as they cause more hassle than he makes money?
Cuz I had a lecture of that sort when I could not produce my membership card because I had lost it (but had signed in) but was able to tell him my members number which they later checked and confirmed. In the period before that tho wher he did'nt believe me I was told "you don't understand" "climbers breaking the fence" etc and when i tried to convey back to him my thoughts about the crime (my friend having his gear stollen whilst setting up a climb, car break ins, vandalism and graffiti) Iwas again reminded "no you don't understand"
Back to the chalk issue:
I have heard there has been some facebook challenge to climb the hardest boulder problem (i'm not sure if this is true) if this is the case then that would be why certain areas are more chalked than others.
I have noticed holds that have crumbled off but these are mostly on old climbs that have not been climbed for along time and they don't have any chalk marks on them (Too Hard for Dave)
In reply to dickie01:
P.S Having read the previous thread it wasn't Graham Ad (pic on profile) that spoke to me.
P.S Having read the previous thread it wasn't Graham Ad (pic on profile) that spoke to me.
In reply to Trangia:
I was at Hartland the other week and the state of some of the sea cliffs there was, frankly, deplorable. There were white patches and streaks everywhere. Isn't it about time that the BMC got it's act together and started culling the Peregrines, Guillemots and Razorbills so the defacement of the cliffs will stop and we can find pristine rock to climb?
> Surely nobody can think it's OK to leave rock covered with white splodges?
I was at Hartland the other week and the state of some of the sea cliffs there was, frankly, deplorable. There were white patches and streaks everywhere. Isn't it about time that the BMC got it's act together and started culling the Peregrines, Guillemots and Razorbills so the defacement of the cliffs will stop and we can find pristine rock to climb?
The facebook challenge that I think you are refering to is a database I have set up which is sort of like an online guidebook that lists with pictures some of the best and hardest routes and boulders on the sandstone and also allows people to upload there photos and videos and also comment on the routes. There is no challenge to climb the hardest line like you said. I also make regular updates about current access issues the problems with over chalking and with people not paying at High Rocks.
So if anything I am making people more aware of these issues, I hope.
Ben
In reply to Removed User:
Hey Ben
It can't be your database then because the person that told me about it said there was a specific challenge of a sorts, and there's nothing wrong with it at all it just explains why certain areas may be more chalked than others and why it might be slightly more busy there than in other places.
Cheers
Dick
Hey Ben
It can't be your database then because the person that told me about it said there was a specific challenge of a sorts, and there's nothing wrong with it at all it just explains why certain areas may be more chalked than others and why it might be slightly more busy there than in other places.
Cheers
Dick
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