UKC

Just want to see what other people think about wearing helmets,i think its a must and i dont climb without one. you see alot of folk in climbing films not wearing them,which i think is just plain stupid,as they dont weigh very much and dont seem to put me of attol. Whats your view?
cheers scott

In reply to scottbclimb: winter yes ..some sea cliffs yes also

otherwise ... no

unless the fall would deck out.

In reply to scottbclimb:

Huh?


That it would be nice if people read through what they wrote to make sure it makes some sense before hitting "submit message".

In reply to scottbclimb:

I have a helmet, and used to wear it when pushing the grade, or where there may be a possiblility of loose rock, such as Millstone or in the mountains.

Having witnessed a fall on Saturday, where the guy was climbing within his limits (or at least that was his partners opinions) and he was saved from serious injury or worse, as his helmet seemed to have taken a large impact, I immediately vowed to wear mine at all times.

I wear one virually all day at work on site, so it should really be no hardship to get into the habit for me at the crag.

In reply to scottbclimb: defiantly always wear a helmet. I know a mate who fell while climbing in the bristol gorge, even with the helmet on he was knocked unconsious, had to have major surgery and had double vision for months. He has now made a full recovery (took about 15 months), but if he hadn't had he helment on he would of been killed for sure.

In reply to scottbclimb:

It depends on the situation. Recently I have started to wear a helmet a lot. If there is little chance of something falling on my head then I never used to bother. But I was wearing one every day for 3 months due to work, so I got used to it, so now I wear it.

In reply to NorthernRock:

There was a time when I only wore mine for mountain terrain or loose quarries, and would have greatly resented it for anything else. However I do wear it for pretty much everything now. I guess I've gotten older and more sensible, but have probably also responded to the wider shift towards lid-use. But I would always oppose any sort of prescriptive attitude towards the issue; that is the diametric opposite of what climbing is about; personal choice and responsibility.

In reply to scottbclimb:

I used to wear it only on sea cliffs etc but then got used to it and wear it all the time now - climbing that is. You're more likely to fall off awkwardly and hit your head than be hit by loose rock I imagine.

In reply to scottbclimb: only for leading..

In reply to scottbclimb: not much trade experience, but I've got one ' so I wear it.. Useful...esp when some numbnuts were kicking rocks off the top..and my shoes were slippery

In reply to scottbclimb:
I was standing at the base of Grim Wall direct earlier this year, without a helmet on. A stone from somewhere high up whistled past my ear, I felt the wind as it went past, it was that close. It was a bit of a lesson, I tend to eep my lid on now.

In reply to Removed Userysingo:
eep my lid?..... Keep my lid

In reply to thin bob: er, sandy says for 'trade', read 'trad'. Omi polone !

In reply to TobyA:

it's phonetic toby - get darn wif the kidz


word

In reply to scottbclimb: always wear your lid!. leading, belaying, seconding. you just never know and i think its just not worth taking the risk. only takes one person at a busy crag such as stanage to drop a bit of gear. or like we were sunday, climbing limestone , some loose rock etc.

In reply to scottbclimb:

It is the most sensible thing to always wear a lid when at the crag. Experience come complacency are common causes for not. Even a glancing blow to the head can kill.

That said, seconding I don't usually bother unless there is a difficult traverse and leading at a grade I would solo I may not wear one.

In reply to EZ:

Wouldn't you be better off not wearing a helmet leading as people are less likely to drop something on your head. I wouldn't like a hex dropped on my head mind.

In reply to scottbclimb:
I always wear my helmet when climbing. Sometimes I even wear it when scrambling, depending on the route. I climb enough loose routes to know that a falling rock can seriously mess up your life.

In reply to Bulls Crack: I've been hit multiple times on the head by loose rock, but have only once fell off and hit my head.

In reply to scottbclimb:
I always wear mine, I wear a hat on my horse, so why not climbing. That's my choice though, and I don't frown on others for not, that's there choice.

In reply to scottbclimb:
Yeh i always wear my mine nowadays,
apart from sometimes when soloing grit and no one else is around.
I always wear it at places like stanage and the like i feel im more likely to have something dropped on my than anything else.

Learnt to climb with people who never wore helmets, but OH (now husband) took big fall on "within limits" climb without helmet a few years ago.

Gear held, but he inverted (Tremadog) ... nasty bump to head.

We both wear helmets now! Lucky escape, lesson learned.

We've since climbed in the Alps and experienced rockfall. Personally, I don't enjoy wearing a helmet, but have had enough experiences to make me realise that it's a good idea ... and it protects you from the sun too!

The only time I don't bother is on some sports climbs, but only if the rock is solid!

In reply to fishy1:


True, but that one time could have killed you. I read about a guy in Australia who fell 12 feet onto a bolted runner, got flipped by the rope, smashed his skull and died. It happens.

In reply to scottbclimb:

I never used a wear a helmet, even in the mountains. Looking back I view this as a very stupid decision.

I have changed my opinion quite considerably in recent months. I changed a while back over wearing one in the mountains/massive multipitches just because there is a lot of potential for falling rock, and i've both whitnessed it and had the blood gushing from my leg to prove it.

I never used to wear one cragging, my photos are testament to that...but after hearing of the death at stanage and a few other cases, my last month has been climbed complete with lid no exception. I'm not sure if this is a initial trend for me or if it is lasting but ground falls are always a possibility, even on stuff well within your grade, it would be a little crazy to waste it all for want of a few grams strapped to your head.

Still, I do find it cumbersome and annoying. arggg.

In reply to scottbclimb:

I have always worn a helment for climbing. (Apart from inside).

I think its cuz I would never get on the river (kayaking/gorgewalking) without a helment...

I'd never cave without a helmet..

So wearing a helmet climbing is also logical.

I guess having worked outdoors you just get used to wearing helmets; infact when I used to go home from the centre, I felt odd walking down the street without a helmet on. I sometimes wonder about wearing them in the car...

In reply to scottbclimb:

Plus i've had the odd rock kicked down at me over the years....

In reply to scottbclimb:

As an additional thought...I was climbing on some sea cliffs in Turkey a few years ago having gone out on a boat with friends, swum from the boat and jumped off the cliffs into the deep blue water. On climb up the cliffs I slipped and fell about 20ft onto rocks....

I cut and gashed pretty much everywhere on my body (I have some pretty cool scars to prove it). Especially as I tried to stop myself on the way down with my hands.

When I got to Turkish A&E, pissing blood I was told I would have died if i'd hit my head. I was lucky. I don't want to risk it when I'm climbing.

In reply to scottbclimb:
My thinking is simple; if you won't wear a helmet for yourself then you should at least wear one for the other people in you life.
Just ask yourself what your loved ones would answer, if you asked them 'should I wear a helmet whilst climbing?' I'll bet absolutely everyone would say 'Yes.'
I guess that's why I always wear one; because I respect my family, my friends, my climbing partners and also the mountain rescue teams. All the people whose lives would be turned upside-down if I came home severely disabled or in a box.
It really is a no-brainer.

In reply to scottbclimb:

I wear one all the time (whilst climbing). With all these super light helmets around there is no excuse not to wear one.

In reply to Katie86:

Saw two people in a lotus 7 on Sunday wearing matching black helmets, and got used to wearing them on special stage rallies, and wearing a seat belt before they were compulsory.

OTOH I have rarely worn one on grit, often on limestone and always on big cliffs or when new routing on loose rock. the walk in to big cliffs close under them is when you need them not climbing due to stones falling.

Two years ago at Froggatt I got knocked out by just falling over backwards and hitting my head on a rock, wearing a beanie with thick rim. @?Without it I may have been a hospital case. It does not take a big fall either,

In reply to scottbclimb:

Well, most of the more impressive climbers I've encountered or climbed with in my climbing career have worn helmets. Seems like a mark of intelligence to me.

In reply to andi_e:

My mate is gay and he wears a helmet so maybe you have a point. He still laughed at my purple sparkly one though.

In reply to TobyA:

What you get up to in private with glitter and your 'purple helmet' to try and amuse your gay friends is not suitable for discussion on a forum which under 18s can access.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Yes, of course it's sensible but there's more to it than that, isn't there? We've done this to death and I'm not getting into another protracted discussion about it but if it were as simple as minimising risk we either wouldn't climb at all, or never solo, or never lead, or only ever toprope wearing a helmet and body armour above a pad.

It's all about selecting the level of risk you are comfortable with. That risk is never zero and we should never try to pretend that it is. Despite the mantra that it's an individual choice there is often a rather smug undertone from the H&S androids that I find irritating.

In reply to scottbclimb:

As a topic it's been done to death.


Each to their own.

Personally I wear one most of the time while climbing, infrequently at the base of crags and while belaying. I feel a bit naked climbing without it, it knocks my confidence not having it on though oddly a hat does the same trick. Brains eh, squishy and illogical.

I keep meaning to get a new foam type helmet or a cycle helmet since my main concern is flipping and banging the back/side of my head in a fall. My current helmet actually offers very little protection in these areas, it's primarily a stonefall deflector which is of relatively little use at the rather unadventurous venues I frequent.

jk

In reply to Dave Garnett:


I agree, theres been quite a few statements on here along the lines of "you should always wear one". I do find this lecturing attitude annoying.

Climbing is inherently risky and you can do things to minimise that risk -like use bouldering mats, wear a helmet or put a top rope up. For some people, some of these things detract from the climb, for others they don't. The choice of which to adopt should surely always be up to the climber? For me anything else really detracts from what a large part of what climbing is about.

I chose never to wear one, but have been thinking more recently about getting one for hard (for me) trad routes where I might deck from an awkward angle fall, but i think it'd get few wears.
Having said that, I was v impressed with the lightness and fit of a friends Petzl one i tried the other day. Got to the stage where i almost didn't notice it. almost...

In reply to scottbclimb:

If you have a week or two on your hands, do a search of previous thread

I always wear one if there is a risk of either something falling from above or inverting whilst leading which covers all outdoor climbing situations (apart from southern sandstone which I tend not to climb)…..

And many scrambles as well (in fact some of these are more prone to rockfall than many climbs) However, I’m very sloppy about wearing a lid whilst scrambling: I almost never do and it’s interesting to note that, when I once arrived in hospital with a badly broken ankle sustained in a fall whilst scrambling, the doctors, who have much experience in that particular hospital of patching up injured climbers, were very disapproving of my lack of a lid (despite the fact that my actual injury at the time was at the other end of my body!)

In terms of my attitude to others, if they’re not tied to the same rope as me, it’s a personal choice and I wouldn’t presume to lecture them. If they are then I’d want to know their reasons for not bothering with one: it very much is my business if my climbing partner decides to wear one or not as I’d be the one initially called upon to deal with the situation if they got a head injury, particularly if it’s a multi-pitch route.

I certainly wouldn’t climb with someone who chose not to wear a lid on a route that to me appeared obviously hazardous: I’d be too terrified to have them belaying me or that they’d get hit themselves and I’d have to perform initial rescue steps…and being terrified whilst climbing is not good: an occasional mild adrenaline rush is enough for me!

In reply to scottbclimb:

I wear my helmet regardless of where I'm climbing. It doesn't matter whether it is sea cliffs, mountain routes, roadside crags or little grit outcrops. I have not been climbing long but I've seen alot of loose rock fall off. I've also seen plenty of my friends been hit on the head by objects that would have caused a problem if they where not wearing a helmet.

My climbing partner refuses to wear a helmet which is something I personally can't stand. His choice at the end of the day.

As for people wearing helmets in climbing films, it is true that you don't really see that many of the top climbers wearing helmets. At the end of the day wearing a helmet is personal choice.

In reply to scottbclimb: My view? do what you like. I wear a helmet for alpine, winter, exciting rock, hard rock, muppet infested rock... nearly everything except bouldering.

Love'n'hugs
LD

In reply to scottbclimb:

Sometimes yes, and sometimes no. I don't tend to have hard and fast rules about when to wear a helmet - I more often than not take one to the crag, and then I have the option.

In reply to clare_bear:

Well it does protect your head in the event of a fall, but I reckon there's quite a few scenarios where you're more at risk of head injury while belaying/seconding.

In reply to mlmatt:


I would say that there is far more helmet use on testpiece routes than ever before. Neil Bentley on Equlibrium was probably the turning-point.

In reply to TobyA:

I guess a growing proportion of active climbers were semi-formally taught how to do it rather than going off with some mates or a club and largely figuring it out by example and experiment. Since they are taught that a helmet is the default setting, that's the attitude they have.

That's fine, for them. However, I have little time for evangelists of any stripe and true believers in helmets are particularly irksome. I don't recall too many of these threads started by militant beany wearers. They are generally of the 'I always wear a helmet and I was interested in boosting my self-righteousness further by seeing how many like-minded individuals I could persuade to post agreeing with me' variety.

Also prominant are posts reluctantly conceding the individual choice whilst going on to make clear their disapproval of the reckless irresponsibility of anyone, however experienced, actually exercising that choice. 'It's your choice' in that context is about as neutral as 'Nothing' from a partner, in response to the question 'What's wrong'!

In reply to scottbclimb:
I wear one for leading outdoors and multi pitching.
I don't normally bother while seconding or at the bottom of the crag if it's a clean single pitch crag without much loose rock.
Sometimes I don't bother on low grade stuff but having said that, I wore one last weekend for a grade 3 scramble. As for what other people do, it's their head, they can do what they like with it.

In reply to teflonpete:
One of my fairly inexperienced friends really insisted on wearing my bike helmet when we went doing some Diffs/Vdiffs in the mountains with standard rock climbing kit. However he has happily soloed some quite sketchy mountain Mods with me in the past in big boots and no lid (after doing a load of easier scrambles).

Tried to explain to him that soloing mods with no lid is way more risky (in the main) than climbing 1 or 2 grades harder witha rope and no lid, but he didn't feel comfortable with that.

I think at the end of the day a lot of people feel that scrambling involves no specialist kit and rock climbing you need the works including a helemt.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Never seen a post from someone claiming that a beanie hat saved them from death or life in a PVS.

Just an observation.

In reply to scottbclimb:

A couple of points I feel should be mentioned -
A number of people take off their helmet at the top of a crag then come down the descent route with it clipped to their harness - seems very dumb to me, as is sitting around at the bottom of crags with your helmet next to you not on your head.

In reply to Jonah:

Not wearing a helmet saved a nasty fall for me once. A headjam saved the day.

In reply to scottbclimb:

I always wear my helmet when climbing, especially now as I am pushing my grade and doing more mountain days. Sure I want to be safe (as can be) etc, but in the main it is because I bought one, it is in with my climbing gear and I don't want to lose it, so the easiest thing to do is wear it...

I also think, if I'm there lying in Hospital concussed or worse, I would feel a bit stupid having not worn one when I own one!

As for other people wearing one, I think it is up to them, I've never thought less/more of someone for wearing/not wearing one however if I were to introduce someone to climbing, I would reccomend for my piece of mind (no pun intended!) that they get one.

Alan

In reply to Dave Garnett:

"That risk is never zero and we should never try to pretend that it is. Despite the mantra that it's an individual choice there is often a rather smug undertone from the H&S androids that I find irritating."

...but H&S adroids almost by definition either don't accept that risk (ie that climbing is dangerous) or are too stupid to realise their logic is flawed. Either position is irritating enough in itself, let alone when they try to convert or impel others.

PS I still wear my lid bouldering sometimes.

In reply to scottbclimb:

Few years ago managed to fumble 4 rock nuts (6's 7's...) which smacked some poor fella on the head on Troutdale Pinnacle coming up the route below the pinnacle (is it superdirect?)..... glad to say he was wearing a helmet....

In reply to alwarr85:

"I want to be safe (as can be) etc," if taken strictly at face value leads to giving up climbing, as it is unnecessary and dangerous. If people accept they are deliberately underaking risk they should make informed judgements in the safety measures they use and fundamentalist positions become illogical.

In reply to Offwidth:

Good point. I wear a helmet always, even when bouldering, to reduce the risk of injury. The only time I don't where a helmet is if the route is some kind of squeeze chimney.

I guess it comes down to the fact that people are prepared to accept some risk because they love moving on rock, but if something is available to reduce that risk and not deter from the movement then why not take it?

The risks of moving on rock itself are to some extent within the climbers control, i.e. you can choose whether or not to go for a difficult move when you're above a dodgy runner, but rocks falling on your head or even just the chance of falling badly from a small boulder problem are not so much in your control.

In reply to Crux:

Interesting that, if the nut had beaned him and he was not wearing a helmet, how would the non helmet gang view that, as a risk he took and this time it went wrong OR blame the guy who dropped the nut, because obviously if he had not dropped the nut it would not have happened.

In reply to J1234:

Speaking for the non helmet gang Id say the fault lies with the climber below - not the nut dropper. If youre following another party on a multipitch you gotta want to be wearing a helmet though really!

PS. Was the poster above serious about wearing a helmet whilst bouldering? Could understand on mega highballs maybe but in the UK these are ususally given E grades...

In reply to Jimbo C:

I'm glad you have this in proportion and are so consistent. Do you use the same helmet as the one you drive in or do have a road-rated one for the car? Presumably the latter since the drive to the crag is by any measure significantly more dangerous than the climbing.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


I've just re-read this thread in the light of your post, and I must say I can't detect that much pro-helmet evangelism - nothing to get too irritated about, anyway - just a normal range of different opinions and practices.

In reply to Dave Garnett:
>Presumably the latter since the drive to the crag is by any measure significantly more dangerous than the climbing.

Is it? This suggests its not

http://www.hse.gov.uk/education/statistics.htm

1 climbing death per 320,000 climbs

Additionally, experience tells me I am much more likely to bang my head climbing than driving.

In reply to bpmclimb:

I was asked by Toby to give my reaction generally, rather than just to this thread. That said, the OP has more than a little of the 'I'm saved and just wanted to share that Good News with you' flavour to it, don't you think?

In reply to JoshOvki: I don't quite understand the syntax of your reply, but basically I accept the risks of falling objects any time I don't wear a helmet. I am thinking of single pitch grit crags. Mountains is helmet all the time for me.

In reply to EZ: yep, I'd typically only wear a helmet in the mountains or on a loose crag, and even at a loose crag probably not when leading - I find helmets very off-putting and I don't climb as well as a result

In reply to MG:

I wonder how they got that and how it relates to the very different risk levels from say a climber leading at their on loose rock to a top rope of a 6m solid cliff well below the climber's limit. Some rock climbs are much more risky than others, the hazards vary and the risks vary according to climber and style of ascent.

In reply to Offwidth:

Obviously. The point is I doubt driving to a crag is more dangerous than climbing itself, even bouldering, although this is often claimed. There are around 3500 road deaths a year in Britian and say a few tens of climbing deaths, so two orders of magnitude difference. I would guess, by contrast, that hours spent climbing are four or orders of magnitude less than those spent climbing, so the deaths per activity hour will be signficantly higher in climbing. If anyone has some more robust statistic it would be interesting to see them.

I always wear a helmet, seems absurd not to to me.

In reply to MG:

Seems absurd to me to always wear one so I'm hoping you have exceptions (for example bouldering with spotters, constricting wide cracks where getting your head inside is safer)

In reply to scottbclimb: I don't see the point in not wearing one. Especially on multipitch. I've had a rock about a foot wide miss my head by centimetres and hit my shoulder. The only time I don't wear a helmet is when I solo.

In reply to Dave Garnett: "That said, the OP has more than a little of the 'I'm saved and just wanted to share that Good News with you' flavour to it, don't you think?"

Oh dear, what would you think of this tale? A few years ago I pulled a hold off on a traverse and cartwheeled upside down for about 20 feet. I had substantial bruises on my shoulder and my bum but my helmet split as it was designed to do and my head did not feel a thing. Had I not been wearing a helmet I would have been dangling unconscious upside down 100 feet above the sea.

In reply to jumpingjimminy:

Second that.

In reply to scottbclimb:

I think a bigger problem is the amount of people who think wearing a helmet makes them bullet proof. The ones sitting having their lunch at the bottom of shorn cliff, while a leader pulls on loose TV sized blocks above.

In reply to NorthernRock: rubbish, if that's your way of thinking then surely you "owe it to your loved ones" not to climb at all. As mentioned above, it's each to their own in respect of their acceptable level of risk. That statement is guilt-tripping nonsense.

I did like the "no -brainer" bit though - was the pun intended?

In reply to jumpingjimminy (among others but this happens to be an excellent example of what I object to):


OK, just so it's clear. I have no objection to anyone wearing a helmet, or a suit of armour for that matter, whenever the mood takes them. I really, really don't care. Some people I climb with often wear one, some rarely do. It depends. Winter climbing, or big stuff in the Alps, I would. Cloggy, or some sea cliffs, or anywhere with a loose top, I probably would. I'd think about it anyway.

However, I think you are missing the the point. If you are all so right, if this is such a non-issue, if I am so obviously mad, bad and dangerously irresponsible, even to consider sometimes (OK often) not wearing a helmet,why do these threads keep being posted? Why are all you so insecure? I've never started a post entitled 'Freedom and responsibility; why compulsive helmet wearers should get a grip of the real risks in life'. Even JCM couldn't be arsed that I can recall.

But here we are again. Do what you judge is best. But please don't start bleating on about my responsibilities to my loved ones, as if that's something I never consider. Indeed there's a picture of one my children climbing without a helmet in a reasonably well-known guidebook. I considered the risk carefully and I concluded that her risk was minimal under the circumstances.

And when you've been climbing for 30+ years on four continents, without ever having a climbing injury beyond pulled tendons and split tips and without ever having troubled the boys in beards (although I've helped carry down a fair few), then you can lecture me about my poor judgement.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Touchy,

I often boulder on my own and have been known to go high.

Ha ha, the only thing dangerous about driving is all the other numpties on the road.

In reply to EZ:

I think that there is more chance of something falling on my head when belaying a leader than when I am leading myself. When someone is working above you they can drop things, or kick things loose.

In reply to scottbclimb:

My partner and I were on an easy climb with solid rock at Tremadoc the other week and he had his helmet on, luckily (he doesn't always wear one), when another party kicked a golfball sized loose pebble from the top of the crag that bounced off the middle of his helmet - god knows what sort of damage it may have done if he didn't have his helmet on...

Rich

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Well I've just read it again, and I think you may be right

BTW I was belaying recently at a crag known for loose rock, and was duly wearing a helmet. The leader dislodged a stone which just missed the helmet but hit me on the shoulder, quite painfully. I felt rather cheated.

On another occasion I brought a helmet to a crag, but couldn't be bothered wearing it. It was lying on the ground, and a largish stone came down and hit it, denting it. So it did it's job even though noone was wearing it!

In reply to MG:


I don't think you've got more chance of dying driving to the crag but you have got more chance of dying driving.

Wear your helmet in the car is my advice.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/education/statistics.htm#death

In reply to bpmclimb: Shoulder pads dude. American football style. You know its the answer.

In reply to Richard Morgan:

OK considering whether or not to wear a helmet when climbing under someone is sensible (without implying the decision to be made is obvious)but this has no link whatsoever with always wearing a helmet. I'll concede I can deal with climbers who are honest enough to admit that they always wear a lid out of superstition but never out of risk reduction as there is always a scenario where the comparative extra risk of removing it is negligable.

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm puzzled by the implicit assumption that wearing a helmet is somehow a problem. Yes I could consider before every route whether there is a risk of something falling, me bashing my head if I fall etc, or I could just note there are many possibilities in climbing for head injuries (which tend not to heal), wear one as a default and not have to consider things further. Makes life a lot easier.

In response to your query above, I don't boulder and have never climbed a crack where my head would fit without a helmet but not with, although I am told a route I plan at the weekend is one.

In reply to Offwidth:

How gracious of you!

If I'm out on my bike I wear a helmet for the whole ride, even on an uphill section of say firetrack, where the 'comparative extra risk of removing it is negligable'. That's not through superstition, it's because I want to get on with the ride without stopping to make unnecessary risk evaluations every 10mins. Maybe habitual helmet wearering climbers are the same.

In reply to scottbclimb: There are basically two streams coming together which is resulting in the proportional increase in helmet wearing:

1) People getting older and generally feeling more vulnerable/risk averse.

2) The modern day, wall/course taught climber who has been indoctrinated with the 'must have helmet on at all times'.

It is of course the latter class that are sucking all the fun, individuality and free thinking out of climbing.

In reply to scottbclimb: I always wear one for climbing routes, but not for bouldering. Part of this decision was the fact that I started climbing with my daughter and I wanted her to wear one.

While I don't wear one for bouldering, I accept that there are bouldering problems where the risk of head injury is greater than on some routes - it's just were I choose to draw the line.

I've heard enough stories about people being saved by helmet wearing to make me satisfied that ON BALANCE, it's a sensible idea.

However, I've no time for people lecturing on either side of the debate. It's a hobby, it's not a legal requirement to wear one, so each to their own.

In reply to Papillon:
That's not through superstition, it's because I want to get on with the ride without stopping to make unnecessary risk evaluations every 10mins. Maybe habitual helmet wearering climbers are the same.

Agreed.

In reply to Removed User:

I disagree, it's simply because lighter helmets with a lower profile are now available.

In reply to Removed User:

People getting older is a new phenomenon is it? Have you considered that as people get older they often have greater responsibilities?


Really? You don't have any fun when climbing because someone else is wearing a helmet? Wearing a helmet takes all fun out of climbing? What a blinkered view. Can you expand on what you mean by the "individuality" of climbing?

In reply to wayno265: I have no problem with group 1 - indeed I feel the tinges of it myself sometimes at the tender age of 30.

As for your other comment, my point is not the wearing of the helmet, but the homogenised, cardboard cut out attitude. Militant helmet wearing is merely one objectification of this.

Of course I judge anyone I meet on individual merits, helmet of not. I do also sport a helmet myself on occasion...

In reply to Removed User:


Quite. As exemplified perfectly by all those who just can't leave it alone and keep starting threads like this and, even worse, those who write those creepy letters to magazines that dare to portray real life in the form of politically incorrect photos of people being irresponsible.

Climbing is irresponsible. Get used to it. It's why you do it.

In reply to scottbclimb:

Climbers like to think they make informed decisions about helmet wearing but in actual fact they make decisions based on their own perception of danger.

The only times my helmet has been used in anger are when stones or dropped gear has hit me on the bonce. How prevalent is this I don't know but prevalent enough for me to feel more comfortable wearing one at the bottom of a pitch.

As to other times (hitting head in fall - trad, or sport, indoor or outdoor)I really haven't got a clue - is it more or less likely than being knocked off a bike or winning the lottery or what ? I make a choice based on intuition rather than fact. I'm sure everyone else does and that is why there is no black and white right answer - we don't have enough actual facts to come up with one.

In reply to Removed User:

Not climbing - life! But you can hardly blame climbing walls for the ridiculous risk-averse bullshit that's taken over our lives.
(I ranted at some length about 'health and safety' which, with regrets for those who actually mean to do well, has become a euphemism for 'this is utterly stupid and we know it, but we're afraid of being sued by some opportunistic scumbag'. And then deleted it. OK, I know this still looks like an off-topic rant - but at least its the short version.

You neglected 3) helmets are much nicer than they used to be. I don't like wearing a helmet much, and rarely used to wear one. Now I often do because the helmet I have now is *much* lighter, cooler and more comfortable than the one I had then.

In reply to scottbclimb:

I cannot for the life of me understand why this subject is being debated.
I too think it's a must.

In reply to Reg29:

Then either you haven't read the thread, you're deliberately being obtuse or you're a bit dim.

In reply to Reg29:

It's because it's a UKC rule that there has to be at least one thread per month about it.

In reply to Removed User:

I don't see anyone other than course students using helmets at walls. The first thing they all do is climb without a helmet like everyone else once they've finished their course.

In reply to Toreador:


Its not being debated, really - it rarely is. No actual facts are being presented.

In reply to GrahamD:

I'm not sure what facts would make a difference. But you're right, it isn't a debate so much as some people expressing the conflict they feel between saying how they respect others' right to choose whilst nevertheless not quite being able to tolerate it.

In reply to Dave Garnett: It's a bit like gays and the middle classes...

In reply to Removed User:

I can honestly say I'd never thought of it that way! The helmetless need a lovable Evan Davies character to win the hardliners round to pluralism.

In reply to jumpingjimminy:

That made me feel slightly queasy.

Where have all the wild men gone?

In reply to Removed User:
I wear a helmet because when I started later in life, it just seemed the best idea and I cannot see a good reason not to. Your comment about superstition is on the mark though I would not have called it that, and I now think that the one time I don`t climb with one, something will happen.
I still think that as a climbing pair, if your partner is not wearing a helmet it does negate some of the helmets benefits, having said that some of my partners wear helmets some don`t and it`s never an issue and I make a point never to mention it, as I there is nothing more boring than an evangelist. Funnily one chap I climb with who never wears a helmet keeps saying he must get one and I feel guilty for wearing a helmet and making him feel like he should wear one. Just out of interest though do you make a snap judgement about people purely on wether or not they are wearing a helmet. I don`t.
Cheers Beds

In reply to J1234:
Just out of interest though do you make a snap judgement about people purely on wether or not they are wearing a helmet. I don`t.

No and I explicitly stated that.

I have no issue with helmet wearing per se. This was also stated explicitly.

In reply to Removed User: Sorry long thread.

Never before have I read (some of) a thread where so many people tell other people what to do. Do they also go up to strangers and tell them to stop smoking?
Make your own decision about wearing a helmet for your own reasons, and let other people make theirs. As for 'it's a no-brainer' - actually I'll use my brain, thanks.

In reply to thomm:

Never before will the lives of so many be owed to so few....


(and for the record I don't often wear a helmet)

In reply to thomm:


I don't think anyone has actually told others what to, rather than stating their opinion.

In reply to JoshOvki: I once took a longish fall while the second was standing on the ground and he flew in the air and smacked his head under an overhang. Fortunately he was wearing a helmet.

In reply to scottbclimb: I've just had a read of the whole thread, and apart from the OP, the pro-helmet wearing posters appear to have simply stated their preference for wearing one, sometimes with the reasons why.

Most of the vociferous posts have been from people defending their position of choosing not to wear one, as if they are under personal attack - even though this is clearly not the case. Why the defensive aggression?

In reply to wayno265: Well the OP is fairly inflammatory and is typical of some. Smug, self-satisfied and suggesting that climbers without helmets are 'stupid'.

An attitude like that can only come about from being ignorant to the extreme.

In reply to wayno265:

I guess my 'defensive aggression' in support of those choosing sometimes (or always) not to wear a helmet - being someone who does wear one for nearly all my climbing - is harder to pidgeon hole.

In reply to scottbclimb:
Just like to point out to everyone, but the OP has not replied to this thread unless I have missed them, has this been a TROLL.

In reply to J1234:

Always could be but Trolls normally make more sense (or if less so, in some deliberately humorous way). I do wonder sometimes about incompetent trolls, illiterate trolls and inadvertent trolls

In reply to Offwidth: HAHA all i wanted was so hear what other peaple did,but some peaple just take it well to far. its a shame that peaple cant make there point and leave it and not act like d!cks.

In reply to scottbclimb:

If you were trolling you could almost match Sloper with that spelling. Better a misspelt post than no posting, I guess, but pasting in from a word processor might be worth a try.

If you really did want to hear what other people think I guess you were unlucky to hit one of the forums' regular 'bun fights' (try quick search on 'helmet').

In reply to scottbclimb:

Out of interest, what difference does it make to you what others think ? genuine question.

In reply to Removed User:

Two streams? Exactly two?

As someone else pointed out, people getting older tends to happen generally, not just recently.

Do you mean that you think that all climbers who hapened to start indoors think this way? Or, if not, what proportion of them? In my experience, climbers who started off indoors are just as likely to climb helmetless later on as those who didn't.

Sucking the fun out for whom? Themselves? Or you?

In reply to scottbclimb: In March this year I was climbing without a helmet( although i had it with me ) when i fell. I think they are a must.

In reply to scottbclimb: I only used to wear a helmet in the mountains, multipitch stuff, and where I thought it was a bit loose.

That was until I fell off a grit route, pendlumed sideways and instictivley put my hands up to shield my head. I didn't realise however, that I had snagged the rope on the way across and started to spin. On the way back across, I then smashed my leg up pretty bad against an arete whilst spinning.

I shudder to think if it had been my head, always wore a helemt since, whatever.

In reply to Offwidth:

I disagree wholeheartedly with nearly every opinion that you have expressed, and think that you should actually get out climbing rather than expressing ill informed opinions about a sport you clearly only participate in by forum posing from the comfort of your office, probably in london, only going to the castle 3-4 times a year!

In reply to EricpAndrew:

I can only say that your every assumption is completely wrong!

In reply to Dave Garnett:

next you'll be telling me hes some kind of active local climber, involved in the the BMC and helping to put together guide books

Let's turn this around. What would be the argument in favour of NOT wearing a helmet while climbing?

You don't look cool?
-- How cool is a corpse?

You're not comfortable in a helmet?
-- How comfortable is a wheelchair?

It restricts your visibility and movement?
-- How much can you see and move while you're in traction for 6 months?

People should, of course, do what they want. But why would they want to miss out an obvious and easy life-saving precaution?

In reply to Tim Chappell:


like... a top rope...

In reply to Tim Chappell:

depending on the climbing being done the chances of actually falling off and hitting your head in a manner that would cause significant injury are imho small (loose rock, hanging belays, following other parites etc excepted).

Naturally someone will come along with an exaple of someone they knew or heard of whos life was/would have been saved by wearing a helmet, but they i could give similar examples of people who have been hurt/killed doing other activites, so and so fell over a work and got a concusion cos he hit his head on a filing cabinet, wouldnt have happend if he was wearing a helmet.

Simple fact is your more likely to hurt your leg/ankle/arm in a fall and i find wearing a helmet off putting/distracting and therefore wearing one makes me more likely to fall off, and more likely to hurt myself.

In reply to bpmclimb:

apart from the following selection of 'advice'

OP - see alot of folk in climbing films not wearing them,which i think is just plain stupid

Party troll - always wear your lid!. leading, belaying, seconding. you just never know

EZ - It is the most sensible thing to always wear a lid when at the crag

Jumpingjilly - If you won't wear a helmet for yourself then you should at least wear one for the other people in you life. It really is a no-brainer.

King of Gibraltar - With all these super light helmets around there is no excuse not to wear one.

Gordon Stainforth - Seems like a mark of intelligence to me.

Reg29 - I cannot for the life of me understand why this subject is being debated.
I too think it's a must.

In reply to Jeff25:


Yes, in the right circs. Climbing's always a trade-off-- adventure vs. safety. The point I'm making about helmet-wearing is that it gives you so much more safety, for so little less adventure, that I can't see why it isn't, almost always, an unmissably good deal. I wouldn't say the same about top-ropes, for obvious reasons.

In reply to Tim Chappell:
Do you wear a helmet when hill-walking?

In reply to Toreador:


In the Alps I tend to. In the Cuillin I might. Around Drumochter, not so likely...

In reply to Tim Chappell:

Let's turn this around. What would be the argument in favour of NOT climbing?

You don't look cool?
-- How cool is a corpse?

You're not comfortable in life without risk?
-- How comfortable is a wheelchair?

It restricts your freedom and movement?
-- How free are you and how much can you move while you're in traction for 6 months?

People should, of course, do what they want. But why would they want to miss out an obvious and easy life-saving precaution?

In reply to Offwidth:
you and i know that wearing a helmet is sensible really, we are just too lazy to do so...

i say if it was made compulsory, and to lead outside you had to have some kind of BMC assesed qulaification that would make us all think and do things properly for the benefit of everyone, esp our loved ones,

perhaps the police could enforce it, or failing that, some kind of CCTV at popular crags?

In reply to Tim Chappell:

Well i don't really agree. I had such a hard job trying to explain to a non climbing friend about why an ascent on top rope was not 'valid' against an ascent on lead.
Wearing a helmet is just an extension of the effort to make an ascent less dangerous. Its seen as an acceptable practice as is the use of crash pads but the whole point of wearing one on say a headpoint is to minimise the negative consequences of falling

In reply to EricpAndrew:

Oh, now you're on a slippery slope!

In reply to Tim Chappell:



You missed out by far the most important one - it messes up your hair.

In reply to clare_bear: Only leading? I witnessed a climber ab into Swanage last year, laid ropes out for his leader, then remove his helmet to belay at the base of probably the loosest crag in the UK, crazy. Only for leading?

In reply to TouchtheRock:

seems a bit stupid.....i'm also amazed at the number of people who have yet to work out the best way to place a helmet when not wearing it is flat side down....if you put it curved side down it could roll away!

just another tip from the top :p

In reply to Morgan Woods:

Always good for a comedy moment, that. I remember a mate getting cut to ribbons trying to retrieve his helmet from the brambles below Grim Wall.

In reply to scottbclimb: It's your choice... but you make your choice on behalf of the unknown guy on the next route who never climbs again because he saw your brain on the floor, your belayer who blames himself and has nightmares for the rest of his life, and your family whose lives are ruined because they have to spend the rest of their time caring for you once you've became a vegetable.

In reply to An Ordinary Climber:

I'm never convinced that such colourful descriptions actually help the debate - situations are really never that black and white. A TV size block will put "your brain on the floor" irrespective of helmet use(TVs are one of the standard block sizes apparantly - just below freezer sized - I digress).

All that tends to happen is that everyone who advocates helmet use most of the time (me included) gets branded as some sort of zealot.

In reply to GrahamD:

I do love the way that white goods have become the standard unit of measurement for loose rock.

me and two friends, had a bit of a ten hour climbing epic. In llanberis about a month ago we night climbed on flying buttres during some shitty conditions. Yes stupid idea; i know now. but the last pitch was almost impossible in wet, it was a chimny that in dry would be a piece of piss. but my friend who on sights E4 couldnt get up so he tried the wall on the right that appeared to be less wet, he took a 20m fall and a large piece of rock about the size of a helmet, hit him on the head. Now; he wasn't going to wear a helmet on this climb, but me and my friend convinced him too. good job he did other wise we'd have been screwed!! wear em its better safe than sorry.

In reply to scottbclimb:

Always wear one, summer & winter.
It takes a very small pebble or small fall to cause lasting injuries

In reply to plexiglass_nick: I got hit by an iPod sized piece of rock the other week, glad I had a lid on

In reply to Jeff25:



Do you reckon your loved ones would be okay with watching while you shit yourself and dribble because you felt a helmet somehow degraded the 'spirit' of a climb? I mean needlessly? Surely it makes more sense to stick a lid on and then go and do something even harder, rather than going oo yeah I'm a proper hard adventurer because I do climbs without a helmet on? That's just complete bollocks mate.

In reply to Jeff25:

You could say the same about leader-placed protection, ropes, ice axes...

In reply to skeev: ... and coats. Another form of cheating. I won't be wearing one on K2 next year. You don't see yetis wearing coats.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

Exactly.
I've never looked at a climber with/without a helmet and thought they were cool/uncool - what a tw*t you'd have to be for that to even cross your mind. As for uncomfortable/restricts movement - how colossally fukwitted do you have to be to be unable to get a helmet to fit? It's basically a hard hat - if hats prove difficult/awkward maybe you should stay indoors.

In reply to skeev:

Brilliant.

In reply to scottbclimb: I didn't waer a helmet when I started climbing even though I'd brought one. It just wasn't very comfortable and I did feel like it effected my climbing, maybe this was just psychosomatic or maybe it did effect my balance, I don't know but I stopped wearing it. It also seemed like a lot of people weren't wearing them. All the climb DVD's I owned show climbers on routes that were silly dangerous but without wearing a helmet.

More recently I brought another helmet due to various reasons, one being peer pressure, another being the fact I was climbing harder and had taken a few falls and I have been hit by some small stones knocked off ledges etc.
It's the same helmet that I had before but just in a smaller size. I've also noticed more people at crags are wearing helmets and it was also refreshing to see that both JD and JG were both wearing helmets in the recent videos posted on UKC. Do we think this is a change in peoples attitude towards wearing helmets or is it a fashion thing as more big named climbers are wearing them and that helmet design has changed? As I said above I've brought another helmet that is the same as my previous one just in a smaller size - so something has changed in my head as the helmet hasn't really changed and I still wear the other one over a beanie to keep my head warm???

In reply to scottbclimb:
Random accidents happen in the unlikeliest of places, friend was eating lunch at the bottom of the crag following climb at 3 Cliffs Bay in Gower with no one apparently climbing/belaying/moving around above her, a stone dropped right on her head splitting her helmet – seemed most likely a seabird might have dislodged it. Result: bad headache, check over at A&E and new helmet shopping but otherwise all well.

I got a direct hit on the head at Tremadog with a carabiner while belaying a friend, my helmet meant it was noisy but no disaster … and of course there is this thread http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=364265&v=1#x5302966

Can't see what’s so tricky about wearing 'em. The obvious no brainer etc!

In reply to skeev:

nice!

In reply to fizz:
Perhaps anyone who can't see why people might possibly not want to wear a helmet all the time is as stupid as anyone not wearing a helmet and more narrow minded that someone who's had their head crushed laterally by a large block (see what I did there).

In reply to scottbclimb:

I have to admit, when I'm toproping southern sandstone, I never wear a helment anymore. The rish of rockfall there seems non-existent, and falls don't really happen - you just "come off" the rock. Still, I always wear a helmet on other crags, and definitely when I am leading. Even indoors I think it might be sensible to wear a helmet when leading.

Chris

In reply to luke1986:


Such a great malapropism - "Yeah, I'm wearing a helmet, and I'm proud of it - what's it got to do with you?"

In reply to Chris Ellyatt:

I don't wear one for SS, Font or indoors, otherwise always when climbing. Up till last season I never wore a helmet skiing but intend to do so in the future.

In reply to fizz:


Er, was that not rather rash?

In reply to many:

Oh christ. The point people have been trying to make is that helmet wearing is no more a logical decision than it is to not climb in the first place.

Everyone saying 'it's stupid to not wear a helmet, I always wear one' could just as easily be saying

'it's stupid to rely on leader placed protection, I only ever climb on bolts',
'it's stupid to climb on loose rock, I only ever climb at stanage'
'it's stupid to do high altitude mountaineering, I only ever go cragging'
'it's stupid to take risks by climbing, I never leave the ground',
'it's stupid to risk food poisoning by eating soft boiled eggs, I only ever eat mine hard boiled'

And all of the emotional blackmail 'how would your loved ones feel etc. etc.' just as equally could apply to support any to the above statements.

Yes, helmets may reduce your level of risk, to a greater or lesser extent depending on the climbing environment. On a loose and serious sea cliff, say, it would tend to provide an increased level of protection than on a heavily overhanging limestone sport route where you have nothing to hit on the way down and very little that is likely to fall on you.

In certain circumstances, where people consider it relatively safe to do so (remember, if it is complete safety we are after then it's not logical to leave the ground or even go to the crag) then they may decide that unrestricted freedom of movement is more beneficial, and more enjoyable (and let's remember, we all choose to climb for enjoyment despite the risks involved) than wearing a helmet.

It is no less logical to decide not to wear a helmet than it is to decide to climb in the first place. The decision whether or not to wear one is made based on weighing the potential risk of the situation, the consequences if something were to go wrong, and to what extent a helmet might mitigate those consequences. Hence helmet wearing is more prevalent on a Yosemite big wall or at Swanage than it is at a Spanish sport crag. It is a personal decision and what is appropriate for some people is not necessarily appropriate for others.

So please can people stop with the excessively alarmist and emotive ranting (Tim Chappell, I'm looking at you) and go back to respecting everyone's responsibility to choose the level of risk appropriate to them based on the specific circumstances, as we do with all other aspects of climbing.

In reply to scottbclimb:

i usually wear one, but i have been know to forget it on occasion.
but... i wear one because I want to, I feel safer wearing one.

but i acknowledge it's not because i "am" safer, i just "feel" safer... if that makes any sense. (in the same way as top roping feels safer than leading at the climbing wall)

but go ahead and not wear one if that's your choice, you won't be under pressure to wear one from me if you don't want to.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

I agree with most of what you say there. However, I would add that of the activities you list the alternatives are very different (e.g leader/bolts) with very different experiences whereas wearing or not wearing a helmet does not appreciably alter the experience, so the situations aren't quite equivalent.

In reply to skeev:

Shuffle or Classic?

In reply to plexiglass_nick: > (In reply to many)> > 'it's stupid to rely on leader placed protection, I only ever climb on bolts',

However, if there is a clear risk, that can be eliminated, with no impact on the day, why not?


What about the impact on your climbing partner who has to try and hold your brains in your skull with a snotty tissue, waiting for MRT to turn up?


Ever swung upside down? never had your leg behind the rope? never had a near miss with someone elses dropped gear?


Are you suggesting it lowers performance? In winter apart from being safer it's much warmer.


I would say it's not alarmist, but factual. Falling off or being hit on the head general hurts. You could look at from the perspective that wearing a helmet will reduce the impact and thus speed your recovery up should you be unlucky.

Seems to me that climbers are so much more against helmets that MTBers, some aspects of skiing and clearly caving for obvious reasons.

In reply to GrahamD:


In your opinion!

I'll say up front that I usually choose to wear a helmet if I'm doing any trad climbing, and always when it is serious, big or loose. I'll also often wear one belaying at limestone venues such as the wye valley, as there is a significant possibility your leader might kick something big down. Sometimes at Portland I'll wear one to belay but take it off to climb.

Personally I find my helmet, which is the lightest one on the market, is still quite uncomfortable and I am usually conscious of having it on. I also like the sensation of sun on my skin and wind in my hair, in the same way that I like the feeling of freedom when moving over the rock unencumbered (which is why I tend not to wear one when sport climbing or soloing, unless there is a specific reason to do so). It is a significant part of why I like being outdoors and why I enjoy climbing in the first place, and if I am going to choose a lifestyle with inherent risks for the sake of enjoyment it seems completely illogical to then try to reduce my risk by what may be a miniscule amount (in many circumstances) by compromising what I enjoy about it in the first place.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:


- With all due respect, that sounds like pretentious twaddle to me. "unencumbered" - but you'll wear clothes, shoes, harness, e.t.c..

"if I am going to choose a lifestyle with inherent risks for the sake of enjoyment it seems completely illogical to then try to reduce my risk by what may be a miniscule amount"
- "lifestyle with inherent risks " - like golf? Everything has risks. I mean, really, why do paragliders, sky divers e.t.c. bother with helmets? Who are they kidding?

In reply to summo:


Well I also climb serious trad with my climbing partner, where falling off might involve something as excessively graphic. I also climb in areas where there's a chance of rockfall significant enough that a helmet it's going to make the slightest difference. As a climber, you accept it as a potential consequences for taking part in something inherently risky, and if you don't then I'm afraid you're kidding yourself.


Firstly, don't put your leg behind the rope. Secondly, I'll judge based on circumstances the relative risks of swinging upside down or someone dropping gear on me. On an overhanging sport route the risks of these are generally fairly minimal. I also think I generally have a better idea of the relative risks of these on the day, than you do, right now on the internet, for every route I'll ever do. Fair?


No, I'm saying it might be more enjoyable. In july 30 degree mediterranian heat, it's also much warmer. I'm saying it's a personal choice and I wouldn't presume to tell you want you might or might not find a better decision.


It may be factual but you need to have a sense of perspective. I witnessed a really unpleasant car/pedestrian accident a couple of months ago. I could rant on at you in lurid detail just how horrendous the guys injuries were and how much blood there was and how there were bones sticking out at all angles, which may be perfectly factually correct. It may also be that not crossing the road or in fact leaving the house would reduce your risk of being hit by a car which had gone out of control and plowed into the pavement. But I wouldn't rant on about how you shouldn't ever go near a road because THIS COULD HAPPEN TO YOU as it would be an utterly unreasonable response to a massively unlikely event, and living your life wrapped up in a protective bubble for fear that something terrible might be lurking around every corner, just seems a miserable way to live when, statistically, what you are most likely to die from is probably heart disease or a respiratory infection.

In reply to scottbclimb: I used to hate the thought of ruining my climbing/skiing/riding experiences by something as cumbersome as a helmet.. heaven forbid I would have to redo my hair when I got in!!

However in my 32nd year I have finally topped off all my sporting equipment with a helmet.. started with cycling as I started riding roads to work & don't trust motorists & gradually this caution has spread to all my hobbies. I have bought 4 helmets so far this year, the annoying thing being that none of them are transferrable to other sports.... according to the manufacturers!!

In reply to scottbclimb:

Here is a useless bit of information which bares no relation to climbing. In the Great War steel helmets were first introduced in the British Army in 1916 when the powers that be became inceasingly alarmed at the high percentage of head injuries from shapnel balls. In the first few months following their introduction the percentage of head injuries actually increased rather than decreased. The reason being that it gave the soldiers a false sense of security tempting them to peep over the parapet at the enemy trenches. Unfortunately the steel helmet was not strong enough to withstand a rifle bullet and German snipers took full advantage of the increase in the number of targets presented to them.

In reply to Trangia:

Not useless or irrelevant if you climb in Pembroke clandestinely...

In reply to scottbclimb:

I'm curious as to why you stop at a helmet?

The argument seems to be that a helemet is light & could save your life in the event of a fall.

Why not a back protector. You could damage your spine in a fall & light ones are available for mountain biking.

Some sort of neck brace as well Iwould have thought like those foam sausages that people have to wear on game shows?

I'm not having a go here (well much) I honestly don't get why it's helmets only is it a carry over from road cycling?

In reply :

From my own experience and thinking back over the years of too many friends I have lost in climbing accidents, fatal head injuries are the main cause. Some died from multiple injuries, but these always included head injuries amongst them. Hypothermia is the second most common cause.

In reply to i.munro:

No, it's a carry over from life, aka the school of hard knocks.

In reply to Trangia:

That makes sense.
I think this may account for the difference in attitude. Friends of mine have been very badly hurt (ie never fully recovered badly) in big falls & i would not want to go through what they did ( for example nearly a year in traction strapped to a board).

In reply to scottbclimb: I choose not to wear a helmet, mainly through laziness.

some people wear them some people don't, it's not really worth discussing.

In reply to scottbclimb: anyone who chooses to climb without a helmet has to be exceptionally stupid, the arguement that it is cumbersome or takes something away from the whole climbing experience is such a load of crap! Fact is people who dont wear them think it makes them look cool, where in fact you look like a complete tit, as for the arguement that they are uncomfortable to wear then you haven't tried enough helmets on, mine's so comfortable I dont even realise I'm wearing it and normally forget to take it off until I'm almost back to the car! There's no real good reason for not wearing one but there are many good reasons to wear one, dont know why I'm letting myself get worked up about it really, do what you want you bloody idiots!

In reply to Brianw1975:

I don't know why you're getting worked up etiher. I'd be interested in your answer to my question above though.

In reply to Trangia:

Trangia, the facts you state are true but the reasons aren't.

The reason that head injuries increased after the introduction of helmets was that people who were previously dying from, say, glancing bullet shots were now just being non-fatally injured.

As you say not entirely relevent but interesting, I hope.

In reply to scottbclimb: I have just bought my third helmet. The last two both had dents in from falling rock and ice and better the helmet than my head ! so my advice is wear or you will more than likely at some time or other die or at the least get seriously injured !

In reply to i.munro: Seriously?! Ok then, a helmet does not restrict movement or spoil the climbing experience, as I said you dont even know you're wearing it, where as I'm pretty sure I would be aware of a back protector strapped to me and a neck brace wrapped around my neck!

In reply to Brianw1975:

I'm sure yopu would quickly get used to it, as you have with helmets. Have you tried a modern back protector?

In reply to scottbclimb:
Surely the whole point about this debate is that the choice is yours, but you should make it knowingly. I always wear a helmet, from 40 years experience, but I don't think other experienced old f*rts like me stupid if they decide not to (well, I do actually, if they are in places where the rocks are raining down, but that's uncommon). It's another risk, like all the others - might as well debate why some people put in loads of pro whilst others do so very occasionally.
But brain damage is rather more irreversible than broken limbs

In reply to i.munro: Actually you know what I think you might be on to something there, I'll have to get one of those, while I'm at the sports shop I'll also pick up a pair of big ice hockey goalie leg pads and a cricket box, ha ha!

Do you not think this is just another aspect of the risk management we as climbers do all the time?
Would you wear a helmet bouldering? Indoors? Top-roping? Walking to the crag?
At some point the risk of a head injury is perceived to be sufficient to warrant the (very small but real) inconvenience of wearing a helmet. We all make our own decisions as to where that point arrives.
I'll wear a helmet for ice climbing and for more adventurous tradding but rarely for sport or ordinary cragging. In many years I haven't come close to sustaining a head injury so it appears that my judgement so far has been sound.
Is the choice really fundamentally different to that of whether to top-rope grit routes rather than lead them? Or whether to take a crash-pad to put at the bottom of every route you do? If you mess up it could save your ankles. Leading without much gear is dangerous and stupid when it's usually no trouble to arrange a rope from above. But leading bold or indeed well-protected routes can be highly enjoyable and very rewarding when we've taken all of the factors into consideration - including any possibilities for head injury - and we've taken the right decisions to make sure we've succeeded on our route without hitting our head or hitting the ground.

In reply to john arran: Top roping a route rather than leading it is a totally different experience from each other, top roping a route you could lead certainly changes the climb and is not half as rewarding, but I dont see how not wearing a helmet could possibly give you more reward at the end of a climb apart from better photos of your hair blowing in the wind I suppose, but each to their own

In reply to Brianw1975:

I wear helmets for pretty much all my climbing except indoors and bouldering (neither of which I do much). But, just like road biking, on the very rare occasions I don't wear one it is rather nice feeling the wind blowing in your hair!

In reply to Brianw1975:

I notice you didn't comment on the other examples, presumably because they're mostly less clear-cut to you. Some people probably think leading is unjustifiable and prefer to top-rope everything they climb, so it's all just a continuum really.

And that's exactly my point. What seems like a no-brainer to you may not be so clear-cut to others. Who's to say that your point of view is 'better' than mine or the top-ropers? In climbing we live or die by the decisions we make. We can reduce the chance of head injuries either by wearing a helmet or by not hitting our head or letting anything else hit it. Both approaches work in the right circumstances. You clearly think wearing a helmet is always the better way, whereas I and many others take a more flexible approach. There's no right and wrong here, just personal resonsibilty and sometimes a serious problem if the decisions we make (leading, using pads, wearing helmets, etc.) turn out to be poor ones.

In reply to Brianw1975:

Anybody who makes comments like you do must be exceptionally stupid. Some people choose to wear a helmet some can't be bothered too. It's a personal choice. It's not worth getting worked up about, people who don't wear helmets only really risk hurting themselves. (i'm sure some smart alec is going to refute that)

In reply to Brianw1975:


Well, why stop at taking it off when you get to the car? After all, there are many good reasons to wear a helmet in everyday life. In case you fall down, say. According to wikipedia (so it must be true), the most common causes of head injury are traffic accidents, home and occupational accidents, falls, and assualts. So really you'd be exceptionally stupid not to leave it on.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Wiki - must be true then

Seriously though, is that by percentage of participants or pure accident volume?

In reply to scottbclimb:


Nope. Feel cumbersome. Choss and alps.

In reply to plexiglass_nick: Back in the real world, what percentage of climbing accidents would have been mitigated or been even less serious if the injured had been wearing a helmet but was not?

In our daily lives we do lots of things that statistically are more dangerous than the safer options, i.e. crossing a road at a position other than a designated crossing point, drinking more than the recommended alcohol intake levels, speeding etc.

At then end of they day, whether we choose to do this is personal choice, but one must be ready to deal with the consequences of that decision.

I forgot my helmet once and, while sat 15' back from the quarry edge eating a sandwich, waiting for a route to be free, some muppet dislodged a brick size rock from the top which landed a couple of feet behind me. Since then I always wear a helmet if there is any real chance of loose rock (or gear) raining down and usually for leading. I rarely wear one for soloing though and I guess this is because I don't solo if there is any chance of crap falling on top of me and because the chance of a helmet making a critical difference on a fall is slim.

In reply to summo:

I was being flippant. By pure accident volume, I would assume, if it hasn't been made up on the spot by someone. I was pointing out how ridiculous it was to assert that you should ALWAYS wear a helmet for ANY climbing activity but not for, say, crossing the road.

In reply to scottbclimb:

I am rather surprised at the level of vehemence of the crash helmet wearers displayed on this thread.
If you want to wear one all the time then great but please credit the rest of us with the intelligence to make our own decisions according to circumstances.

In reply to EeeByGum:

I have no idea, realistically probably some but I don't think anyone knows for sure.

For balance, here is an informative BMC article weighing up various safety pros/cons

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=2496


I 100% agree with you.

In reply to bz:

Let's be realistic about what climbing helmets will and will not do. EN12492, the standard for climbing helmets, specifies a drop test with a 5kg object dropped a vertical distance of 2m. So helmets have to absorb about 100J of energy in order to pass their drop test. From the top of the crag - let's say 20m - the object only needs to be 0.5kg to produce the same amount of energy.

Put another way, your helmet is only rated to protect you from an object 500g or smaller falling from the top of the crag. To put this in perspective, this would be a chunk of limestone about the size of two audio cassette boxes. Even worse, the BMC did some testing on helmets a while back and concluded that several lightweight helmets did not even meet this test spec.

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmcNews/media/u_content/File/equipment_advice/summi...

Yes, it will protect against small stuff and dropped gear. But wearing a helmet does not make you invulnerable

A better solution would be to not eat your sandwiches in the fallout zone from the top of a loose quarry. Quarries are dangerous places, go a bit further back next time.

Clearly I am not saying helmets offer no protection, but there needs to be a balanced view. There is some blind faith going on with some on this thread which is at odds with the level of vehemence directed at those who are advocating a more considered approach.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Not to mention the control freak tendency that just can't bear the idea that there are grown-ups out there who make their own minds up. I've never criticised anyone for choosing to wear a helmet. I can't understand why certain individuals are incapable of returning the courtesy.

In reply to plexiglass_nick: To get techno on you, you need different helmets for different types of climbing.

Foam style, soft shell for peaks etc where falling to the deck or inversion is likely, because the foam is against the skull you get 360 protection from side impact etc and a one shot chance on the main body, before it splits or seriously weakens. They don't do as well as hard shell for small pointed objects for obvious reasons.

Hard Sheel, winter, multi pitch, alps.... where you are as likely to get hit from above, by falling stuff as anything else. They can withstand repeated impacts etc. These are not so good for side impact, because they will flex under pressure until the helmet wall meets you skull!

Either way, any helmet is better than none.

There have been some improvements and the BMC has done masses of research on this stuff, if the right people read this, they might you send you some proof.

In reply to TobyA:

I know I'm a bit late here, but I am SO with you brother (frantically over checks sentence).

Might be worth a thread. You start it and I'll stick up for you.

In reply to jonny2vests:


But don't worry, I'll be wearing a helmet so I'll be fine!