UKC

I've climbed trad using two differnt colour half ropes to reduce rope drag. But if i'm using a single 60 metre rope doubled over, should i tie in at both ends using figure eights as normal; or should i tie in at the half way point.

And if so do i tie overhand / figure eight / alpine butterfly and clip in with a screwgate. Or a (double) bowline with stopper.

My second would have to do the opposite of what i do, so really my question is what type of knot to use...

In reply to talon_guy:

I would say that the best idea would be for the lead to tie into the tow ends, and the secong to clip into an alpine butterfly. Simply because the leader then is tied in with fewer links in the chain.

I'm more than happy to be corrected on this, mind.

In reply to talon_guy: Ive always tied in at both ends

In reply to talon_guy:

either you or your second will need to tie in at the centre. the best way will be to rethread a figure of eight as usual. then clip the loop of rope back into the loop created. The same as you would when scrambling. Because its a bulky knot, it might be easier for your second to do this.

Why do you want to do this anyway??

centurion05

In reply to Fatboyteesside:

not an alpine butterfly, its a three way loading knot, so not used in the correct sense here.

centurion05

I'd want to do this to reduce rope drag, and i don't always have access to two half ropes. Although i do have my own 60 metre single.

And do you mean in the middle of the rope, tie a figure eight with both halves, thread it through your harness, rethread it and then maybe a stopper knot. Would that be safe?

In reply to talon_guy:

would it not just be easier to tie a figure eight on the bight at the half way mark for the seconder, and then clip in with a screwgate?

In reply to centurion05: Ah, no worries. Out of interest, how much weaker would you expect it to be over say, a figure 8?

In reply to Fatboyteesside:

weakness doesnt even matter in this instance, they'll only take a static load on the knot, and ropes of a full weight will be about 20-30kn strong.

tie in with both ends as normal, with two different separate knots, then in the middle re-thread a figure of eight, get out of the habit of clipping in with a crab, its bad practice.

centurion05

In reply to centurion05: Right-o, I've been told it's acceptable for top roping, and also for convenience. I kind of figured that the two coincided here. Every day's a school day.

In reply to talon_guy:

so you're saying tie in by rethreading a figure eight as normal, except that it is on the bight, so in essence you'll end up with four strands of rope making up the figure eight instead of two?

And as a rule, i don't use a krab if it is possible to tie in without one.

Any reason as to why it's bad practice? to do with cross loading? single point of failure etc?

In reply to talon_guy:

Why not just tie in as normal with the doubled fig of 8?

In reply to centurion05:

What....? You're surely not trying to say that this is unsafe - just quite how is this inappropriate? (It admittedly would not be my knot of choice)

In reply to talon_guy:

It's easiest to tie into both ends to lead unless the route is long, say 30m in which case any twists and tangles end up snagged in the belay plate.

To tie into the middle to lead I'd rethread a double overhand or tie a bowline on the bight complete with massive stopper.

To tie into the middle to second I'm much less fussy, either an overhand+krab or I simply push a bight through the belay loop then step through it to form a larksfoot (vaoid if you'll need to untie in a constricted position).

I used to do this a fair bit (doubled full rope) on very sharp rock.

jk

In reply to jkarran: I use your larksfoot method for leading but tie it off with a bowline. The benefit of tying to the middle is that you can pull one rope up if you need extra rope for setting up a belay.

In reply to talon_guy:
As I understand it, you're talking about doubling up a single rope (rather than one double rope). I don't know how thick your single rope is but if it's 10 - 10.5 mm then belaying two strands must be a bit of a pain. If you don't have access to a pair of doubles but do have one double, why not just double that up? It would be no different to climbing on a pair of doubles.

I tie in at the ends by the way as then it's the same as when you're climbing on two ropes, so feels 'normal'.

In reply to Jim Crow:

i said the knot isnt used in the correct place. is it? no. so if YOU wouldnt use it, why not. your reasons are probably correct, and the same as mine. the alpine butterfly knot is used for a three way load, so in the middle person on a rope of three when scrambling, or on a rope when lowering stretchers. you CAN use it in the method stated, but its harder to tie than a figure of eight on the bight, and takes longer.

centurion05

In reply to talon_guy:

If your clipping into an alpine butterfly or FOE on a bite on the half way point i would use two opposing screw gates in case of a cross-loading situation.

In reply to king_of_gibraltar:

I'm completely lost now. One rope, doubled, leader tied into free ends, second can just tie a chunky fig of 8?

In reply to talon_guy:

You will be in much the same situation as when using a long uncut double rope - sold as a single 100 or 120m length. I find it best to lead on the two ends tied in as you usually do (I use bowlines with a couple of half hitches, but many prefer figure of eights) as this is more flexible if you need to back off or something - you can untie one rope to set up a lower-off while remaining protected on the other one, for example.

For the other end I just use the normal method again (bowline and two half hitches for me) but done with the double rope - a bit bulky and untidy but safer than using a figure of eight and a crab. This method would probably be ok if the second always seconded but as I have always alternated leads with my partner we needed a method that was safe for either to lead.

In reply to Bulls Crack:


You could get away with that but it would be cumbersome having that massive knot dangling off you.

However, what i was referring to was having a FOE on a bite in the middle of the rope and then having your second clipping into it with two opposing screw gates.

In reply to talon_guy:

Definitely do not use a locking karabiner if you are leading! I have used both ends of the rope with two figure of eights and I have also tied myself to the middle of the rope using a bowline. I tested the system last Saturday in an (unintentional) 12m fall at Embankment 4 in Millstone.

In reply to talon_guy: What is the height/length/area of the route you want to climb?

In reply to king_of_gibraltar:
Only perceptually. Same volume as two singe fis of 8's!

In reply to talon_guy:

If I was leading, I'd tie in to the ends with fig 8s.

If I was seconding, I'd tie into the middle with a cunning bowline variation - start as for a tying a bowline normally, only with the bight instead of an end, then when you pass the bight through the twist, instead of going 'round the tree', work some slack through, climb through bight, remove slack so bight is now around 'tree'. Genius - the best of both worlds, a bowline that won't fall undone...

In reply to talon_guy:

I've tied in with both ends and a doubled up fig 8 in the middle for leading and seconding and they've all worked OK. I've only done this with a half rope though. I think a doubled up fig 8 in the middle of a full rope would be pretty bulky.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Agree. Sure it looks like a super fig8 from hell but it removes a crab and hence a further element of redundency. No need to use a screwgate.

For leading, i'd use the two loose ends as it helps keep them separated as left and right a little easier when clipping.

In reply to talon_guy:

Watch out for impact force if you're tying onto, in effect, 2 single ropes. If you load both strands in a fall the impact force on you would be higher than with 1 single or 2 half ropes (less stretch you see). Probably not a problem for small falls but could be painful on a big whipper.

In reply to Jimbo C:

Would that make a difference up to the 25% (full)/ 50% (if doubled) point? ie same amount of rope out therefore same stretch?

In reply to talon_guy:

There's not much in it, but I prefer to lead tied into the middle of the rope. This is because there are some situations where you might want to pull a rope up through the runners (already mentioned), and also because twists in the rope can fall out naturally.

I'd use a knot rather than a crab to avoid the possibility of cross-loading the crab, especially with a leader fall. Using a fig 8, I tie in as normal. The knot is a bit bulkier than usual, but that's not really a problem (and one turn on the stopper will suffice, as there's two strands).

In reply to talon_guy:

Surprisingly nobody's mentioned a very commonly-used guides' knot; the rethreaded overhand on the bight. Just clip back into the rope loop with a small screwgate rather than tie a bulky stopper.

I would never use a single screwgate attachment on steep ground, even on second; it puts a potentially very weak link in the system.