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![[Johnny Dawes tucks into the BMC and Climbers Club free food., 4 kb]](http://img.ukclimbing.com/t/71304.jpg "[Johnny Dawes tucks into the BMC and Climbers Club free food., 4 kb]")
"Do you like to grab a burger or are you the sort who prefers to wait for a slow-cooked casserole?"
Sarah Flint discusses the comparative merits of trad and sport climbing using a well tried analogy of fast food vs. home-cooked food.
"Some of us can't be bothered to cook. We're not fussed about how to make a pizza and don't need to know exactly what it's made of: we just want something to satisfy us, quickly."
To accompany her piece we have a historical poem from Craig Smith, first published On The Edge Magazine.
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2177
"I think I've found a way to negotiate a sort of peace."
From this opening line I was expecting a level handed argument not a regurgitation of trad snobbery.
As she states climbing should be defined as the physical act of moving across the rock face, therefore the feast is in the movement and not the gear placement. I believe the analogy makes more sense if you refer to the cooking method. A trad climber uses a Victorian stove to cook the same meal that the sport climber cooks on their modern appliance.
If a trad climber enjoys the rose tinted pleasure of cooking the old fashioned way then by all means feel your boots but don’t look down your nose at people who have found a way to enjoy the same meal using a modern oven.
From this opening line I was expecting a level handed argument not a regurgitation of trad snobbery.
As she states climbing should be defined as the physical act of moving across the rock face, therefore the feast is in the movement and not the gear placement. I believe the analogy makes more sense if you refer to the cooking method. A trad climber uses a Victorian stove to cook the same meal that the sport climber cooks on their modern appliance.
If a trad climber enjoys the rose tinted pleasure of cooking the old fashioned way then by all means feel your boots but don’t look down your nose at people who have found a way to enjoy the same meal using a modern oven.
In reply to UKC Articles:
That's a rubbish analogy that completely misses the point of sport climbing, IMHO.
Take Rich Simpson doing Action Directe as an example: months and months of specific training, learning of movement engrams appropriate to that angle and that style of rock, long hours practicing the moves, learning the subtle nuances of the rock and the holds and how they respond to humidity, and getting the movement precise enough to the extent where he could do it but only when conditions were exactly right - working towards that precise confluence of factors - this is supposed to be convenience food?!
The two problems in the article IMHO are 1) that despite protestations to the contrary it looks at all climbing like it's supposed to be about placing gear, and 2) that it's view of sport climbing is the convenience bolt-clipping view of sport climbing - ie. onsighting well within your grade on bolts.
That's a rubbish analogy that completely misses the point of sport climbing, IMHO.
Take Rich Simpson doing Action Directe as an example: months and months of specific training, learning of movement engrams appropriate to that angle and that style of rock, long hours practicing the moves, learning the subtle nuances of the rock and the holds and how they respond to humidity, and getting the movement precise enough to the extent where he could do it but only when conditions were exactly right - working towards that precise confluence of factors - this is supposed to be convenience food?!
The two problems in the article IMHO are 1) that despite protestations to the contrary it looks at all climbing like it's supposed to be about placing gear, and 2) that it's view of sport climbing is the convenience bolt-clipping view of sport climbing - ie. onsighting well within your grade on bolts.
In reply to plexiglass_nick:
A random article which seems to be a thinly disguised pro trad rant against sport climbing even though it claims to balance "the comparative merits of traditional and sport climbing"...
Rich Simpson was a great example but also think back to Ben Moon who was trying what became Northern Lights for 4 years without success... hardly your burger and fries at the drive thru!
A random article which seems to be a thinly disguised pro trad rant against sport climbing even though it claims to balance "the comparative merits of traditional and sport climbing"...
Rich Simpson was a great example but also think back to Ben Moon who was trying what became Northern Lights for 4 years without success... hardly your burger and fries at the drive thru!
In reply to plexiglass_nick: Take a poor analogy then roll out and stretch until breaking point. Result? A tedious and hackneyed comparison between sport and trad.
In reply to plexiglass_nick:
I was reading an article last night by Steve McClure about the amount of effort he spent on Overshadow. Convenience - NOT
Therein lies sport climbing's problem - the term has been hijacked. We need to coin a third term that means 'conveniance climbing' which won't hurt the sensitivities of the participants.
Graham: a trad and part time convenience bolt clipper.
I was reading an article last night by Steve McClure about the amount of effort he spent on Overshadow. Convenience - NOT
> it's view of sport climbing is the convenience bolt-clipping view of sport climbing - ie. onsighting well within your grade on bolts.
Therein lies sport climbing's problem - the term has been hijacked. We need to coin a third term that means 'conveniance climbing' which won't hurt the sensitivities of the participants.
Graham: a trad and part time convenience bolt clipper.
In reply to Tru:
I agree with the above comments, Having been climbing for a while and having only recently developed(ing) a love of trad I think I prefer Tru's analogy that it's a different way of preparing the climbing 'meal'. My personal experience has certainly never been of sport as fast food. My record is 3 years from first trying a route to the tick.
I agree with the above comments, Having been climbing for a while and having only recently developed(ing) a love of trad I think I prefer Tru's analogy that it's a different way of preparing the climbing 'meal'. My personal experience has certainly never been of sport as fast food. My record is 3 years from first trying a route to the tick.
In reply to UKC Articles: What utter rubbish, another thinly veiled attack on sports climbing by someone obviously who knows nothing about it.
Sports climbing is convienient is it? ha!
Mick you are such a shit stirrer, but I suppose this was the reaction you were fishing for .... well done.
Sports climbing is convienient is it? ha!
Mick you are such a shit stirrer, but I suppose this was the reaction you were fishing for .... well done.
In reply to UKC Articles: Sorry, I'm afraid I think the article is just a complete load of crap that reinforces incorrect views of sport climbing amongst those who have never embraced sport climbing sufficiently to know what on earth they are talking about.
"Two years on and I've a better understanding of the squabble." No , I'm afraid you don't. When you've spent 10 days red-pointing a project you might, but at the moment you seem to be just making a fool of yourself by commenting on something you blatantly don't understand.
Sport climbing as most committed climbers consider it has got NOTHING to do with instant gratification. In fact it is completely the opposite. Sport climbing is all about 'perfection', it is all about getting every aspect of your climbing to be the best it can be. Everything needs to comes together precisely when you redpoint a hard route, or even when you onsight one.
For a perfect counter-point read http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=49579 and then consider whether climbers like Jules Littlefair who are pushing their personal limits think of sport climbing as 'fast food' climbing.
If people are uninspired enough to go sport climbing with the attitude of mediocrity that many UK climbers do, then of course they will not fully appreciate it.
It's attitude like this that make me think that having low grade sport routes in the first place actually does sport climbing a massive dis-service.
However, it was nice to read that trad climbing has grown on Sarah and that she now understands its appeal and attraction. I'm sure that at some point she may fully discover the joys and frustrations of sport climbing when she fails on her umpteenth red-point attempt on a route or falls on the last move on a hard onsight.
"Two years on and I've a better understanding of the squabble." No , I'm afraid you don't. When you've spent 10 days red-pointing a project you might, but at the moment you seem to be just making a fool of yourself by commenting on something you blatantly don't understand.
Sport climbing as most committed climbers consider it has got NOTHING to do with instant gratification. In fact it is completely the opposite. Sport climbing is all about 'perfection', it is all about getting every aspect of your climbing to be the best it can be. Everything needs to comes together precisely when you redpoint a hard route, or even when you onsight one.
For a perfect counter-point read http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=49579 and then consider whether climbers like Jules Littlefair who are pushing their personal limits think of sport climbing as 'fast food' climbing.
If people are uninspired enough to go sport climbing with the attitude of mediocrity that many UK climbers do, then of course they will not fully appreciate it.
It's attitude like this that make me think that having low grade sport routes in the first place actually does sport climbing a massive dis-service.
However, it was nice to read that trad climbing has grown on Sarah and that she now understands its appeal and attraction. I'm sure that at some point she may fully discover the joys and frustrations of sport climbing when she fails on her umpteenth red-point attempt on a route or falls on the last move on a hard onsight.
In reply to David Peters:
I'm sorry! I neither wrote this article, edited it, or published it.
Mick
Senior Editor and Advertising Manager
UKClimbing.com
> (
> Mick you are such a shit stirrer, but I suppose this was the reaction you were fishing for .... well done.
I'm sorry! I neither wrote this article, edited it, or published it.
Mick
Senior Editor and Advertising Manager
UKClimbing.com
In reply to UKC Articles:
Or put it like this
onsighting a trad route is like getting together for a jam with your mates
redpointing a sort project is like playing classical music after much practice
rich simpson on action directe is playing the rachmaninov 3rd piano concerto with the berlin philharmonic
which is most convenient?
yes it's another equally rubbish and biased counter example that misses the point, but just throwing it out there for balance
Or put it like this
onsighting a trad route is like getting together for a jam with your mates
redpointing a sort project is like playing classical music after much practice
rich simpson on action directe is playing the rachmaninov 3rd piano concerto with the berlin philharmonic
which is most convenient?
yes it's another equally rubbish and biased counter example that misses the point, but just throwing it out there for balance
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
How many people have read it, and other UKC articles, though?
How many people have read it, and other UKC articles, though?
In reply to UKC Articles: One of the worst articles I've ever read, the anology is terrible.
In reply to UKC Articles: im all for people contributing, in fact there should be more articles from individuals on here. if however this is representative maybe its not such a good idea. isnt there any UKC editorial control over these things? its spurious rubbish from someone who has little sport climbing experience and the analogy really drags on
In reply to UKC Articles:
No one cares really whether trad or sports is better. Horses for courses innit.
I prefer trad because I'm not strong/talented enough to climb the inspiring looking sport routes, whereas I can get on some fantastic looking and immensely challenging trad routes. But this doesn't make me a better person/climber.
Oh yeah and there's w*nkers in sport and trad. But more in trad because at least sport climbers try hard! <tongue firmly in cheek>
No one cares really whether trad or sports is better. Horses for courses innit.
I prefer trad because I'm not strong/talented enough to climb the inspiring looking sport routes, whereas I can get on some fantastic looking and immensely challenging trad routes. But this doesn't make me a better person/climber.
Oh yeah and there's w*nkers in sport and trad. But more in trad because at least sport climbers try hard! <tongue firmly in cheek>
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
I thought it was going so well until you wrote that Mark!!
I found low grade sport a valuable tool for learning basic movement skills on my way to doing harder stuff. Also, at one point I considered 5+/6a quite hard - we all have to start somewhere!
Whilst I'm thinking about it what is 'low grade'? Many people would still consider the grades I redpoint now to be low, whereas to some anything in the 7s is nails!!
> It's attitude like this that make me think that having low grade sport routes in the first place actually does sport climbing a massive dis-service.
I thought it was going so well until you wrote that Mark!!
I found low grade sport a valuable tool for learning basic movement skills on my way to doing harder stuff. Also, at one point I considered 5+/6a quite hard - we all have to start somewhere!
Whilst I'm thinking about it what is 'low grade'? Many people would still consider the grades I redpoint now to be low, whereas to some anything in the 7s is nails!!
In reply to fishy1: Nothing much to add that hasn't been said by the other replies - a ridiculous load of shite and a naive summary of the topic. The author might reconsider their fast food analogy if she'd ever tried equipping and projecting some routes at The Diamond or any other sport crag. I'm surprised ukc want to publish mediocre content like this.
In reply to UKC Articles:
I think the author is getting a rather unfair slating here. Ok, so the article rather misses the point of hard sport climbing, the training, learning and investment required to succeed at your very limit on a long-term project.
What it does pick up on is the reasonably fair comparison between most people's experience of fairly easy trad and their experience of rather non-descript easy bolt routes. The thing is, these aren't what most people consider 'sport routes', they're easy angled, hard to fall off safely, relatively easy to climb... they're basically bolted 'trad' with much of the spice removed.
I assume this is the author's experience, sub-E trad vs sub-7 uk sport, both (quite sensibly) with an onsight mentality (If I'm wrong then I apologise). In that context the article makes a lot of sense and is actually seems quite balanced.
I've always been quite down on sport, I just don't get it but then I've never been good enough, fit enough or committed enough to play at the level where it begins to make sense. I do however remember vividly the time when bouldering suddenly opened up to me and began to make sense, another activity I had until then mistakenly taken to be merely playing about on rocks.
Don't be too hard on her, it's an easy mistake to make and I'm sure a lot of us have made it in one way or another over the years.
jk
I think the author is getting a rather unfair slating here. Ok, so the article rather misses the point of hard sport climbing, the training, learning and investment required to succeed at your very limit on a long-term project.
What it does pick up on is the reasonably fair comparison between most people's experience of fairly easy trad and their experience of rather non-descript easy bolt routes. The thing is, these aren't what most people consider 'sport routes', they're easy angled, hard to fall off safely, relatively easy to climb... they're basically bolted 'trad' with much of the spice removed.
I assume this is the author's experience, sub-E trad vs sub-7 uk sport, both (quite sensibly) with an onsight mentality (If I'm wrong then I apologise). In that context the article makes a lot of sense and is actually seems quite balanced.
I've always been quite down on sport, I just don't get it but then I've never been good enough, fit enough or committed enough to play at the level where it begins to make sense. I do however remember vividly the time when bouldering suddenly opened up to me and began to make sense, another activity I had until then mistakenly taken to be merely playing about on rocks.
Don't be too hard on her, it's an easy mistake to make and I'm sure a lot of us have made it in one way or another over the years.
jk
In reply to jkarran: I'd disagree with the grades there a bit - there's lots of great sub-French 7 sport routes which if they are tried onsight and you climb around the E1/2 level will give you a memorable and challenging experience akin to your hardest trad grade. Once you get to the low 6's and below then yeah the article begins to describe the experience a bit more - ledge shuffling with bolts instead of wires&cams; but it's still just not a very good article. Slating where it's due I think unless you want more guff like this published.
In reply to jkarran: everyones entitled to an opinion but when it makes a very specific and incorrect point about an aspect of climbing and its then published on a climbing website, an educated (in the most part) audience can be expected to criticise it and ask why it was there in the first place.
In reply to ksjs:
Perhaps it may be tongue in cheek!
Place seems populated by "Valley Christians" as exemplified by Royal Robbins rather than "Valley Heathens" as exemplified by Warren Harding.
I blame it on the parents, the schools, and PC brigade!
Keep Climbing Unreal
Perhaps it may be tongue in cheek!
Place seems populated by "Valley Christians" as exemplified by Royal Robbins rather than "Valley Heathens" as exemplified by Warren Harding.
I blame it on the parents, the schools, and PC brigade!
Keep Climbing Unreal
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
>Perhaps it may be tongue in cheek!
Is that a re-phrase of "I was only joking"?
If so you have just gone further down in my estimation.
You have to realise what UKC publishes, and what it's employees say, reflact on how UKC is precieved.
You might not have written it, you might not have edited it, you might not have published it, BUT do I gather you are the only senior Editor and so really should be over seeing things like this. You do like to take the credit if anyone says anything posative.
>Perhaps it may be tongue in cheek!
Is that a re-phrase of "I was only joking"?
If so you have just gone further down in my estimation.
You have to realise what UKC publishes, and what it's employees say, reflact on how UKC is precieved.
You might not have written it, you might not have edited it, you might not have published it, BUT do I gather you are the only senior Editor and so really should be over seeing things like this. You do like to take the credit if anyone says anything posative.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
'Place seems populated by "Valley Christians" as exemplified by Royal Robbins rather than "Valley Heathens" as exemplified by Warren Harding.'
'Keep Climbing Unreal'
It must be National Crap Analogy day or something...
'Place seems populated by "Valley Christians" as exemplified by Royal Robbins rather than "Valley Heathens" as exemplified by Warren Harding.'
'Keep Climbing Unreal'
It must be National Crap Analogy day or something...
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: not clever enough to be tongue in cheek. its just poorly thought out / researched rubbish
In reply to Bob kate bob:
I do try to....
Eternal Flame on Trango Tower
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2143
Competitions, Funding, the Olympics and the BMC
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2114
Obituary: Charles S. Houston
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2142
Relocate: Catalunya, Spain
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1969
News reports so far in October..30 or so....from Cairngorm News and the Poo Project to photos of Godskins
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=10&year=2009
Gear stuff: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/
To be honest Bob kate bob we publish so much that covers a wide spectrum of what climbers and mountaineers are interested in I sometimes lose track.
Cheers,
M
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> You have to realise what UKC publishes
> You have to realise what UKC publishes
I do try to....
Eternal Flame on Trango Tower
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2143
Competitions, Funding, the Olympics and the BMC
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2114
Obituary: Charles S. Houston
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2142
Relocate: Catalunya, Spain
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1969
News reports so far in October..30 or so....from Cairngorm News and the Poo Project to photos of Godskins
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=10&year=2009
Gear stuff: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/
To be honest Bob kate bob we publish so much that covers a wide spectrum of what climbers and mountaineers are interested in I sometimes lose track.
Cheers,
M
In reply to ksjs:
Stick the knife in, keep twisting and repeat .... eventually your angst will go and blood temperature return to normal.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com) not clever enough to be tongue in cheek. its just poorly thought out / researched rubbish
Stick the knife in, keep twisting and repeat .... eventually your angst will go and blood temperature return to normal.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: think its maybe you that needs the perspective here? im not exactly being personally vindictive, my comments are considered and fair.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
>I sometimes lose track
Wether it ends up being you or another UKC employee, maybe someone needs to keep an eye on quality control.
>I sometimes lose track
Wether it ends up being you or another UKC employee, maybe someone needs to keep an eye on quality control.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Or .... you could just admit that this was a poor decision to publish a piece that anyone with half a brain could see will aienate a significant part of your target audience.
Followed by another poor decision to claim it was 'nothing to do with me' whilst simeltaneously 'claiming' to be Senior Editor ???.
But as we all know you are infallible and sorry doesn't appear in your vocabulary.
> (In reply to ksjs)
> [...]
>
>
> Stick the knife in, keep twisting and repeat .... eventually your angst will go and blood temperature return to normal.
> [...]
>
>
> Stick the knife in, keep twisting and repeat .... eventually your angst will go and blood temperature return to normal.
Or .... you could just admit that this was a poor decision to publish a piece that anyone with half a brain could see will aienate a significant part of your target audience.
Followed by another poor decision to claim it was 'nothing to do with me' whilst simeltaneously 'claiming' to be Senior Editor ???.
But as we all know you are infallible and sorry doesn't appear in your vocabulary.
In reply to David Peters:
Well put.
Well put.
In reply to UKC Articles: I dread to think what her opinion on bouldering is. She probably thinks it equates to snorting a bowl full of sugar. :-D But a bad article is better than no article at all. Fair play for writing it.
In reply to Ackbar: thats no argument / justification. otherwise we'd all be watching x-factor / reading the sun...
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: People are sticking the knife in you because you or a colleague decided to publish an article that 16 of the 18 or so different respondents to this thread deemed to be mediocre. It's got nowt to do with blood pressure. Of course if you're happy with mediocre content then keep defending yourself as you are by rolling out your statistics.
I'm with Mick here - the article's clearly tongue in cheek and if people take tongue in cheek things seriously, then they're going to get upset. All humour's a little bit offensive to someone, but I'm sure you'll agree that this doesn't mean we should get rid of humour! Sport is fun; trad is fun. What's the big deal?
JT
JT
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Come on Mick, you are pioneer of sport climbing in Britain. If you can't see how this article is inaccurate then there is no hope.
Sarah's article would perhaps work if "sport climbing" was replaced with "bolt clipping". Bolting clipping meaning: low grade, forgettable, sport climbs found at crags like Horseshoe Quarry and Sella.
Pushing your grade red pointing a sport route over a number of days is in no way fast food.
Come on Mick, you are pioneer of sport climbing in Britain. If you can't see how this article is inaccurate then there is no hope.
Sarah's article would perhaps work if "sport climbing" was replaced with "bolt clipping". Bolting clipping meaning: low grade, forgettable, sport climbs found at crags like Horseshoe Quarry and Sella.
Pushing your grade red pointing a sport route over a number of days is in no way fast food.
In reply to the cassin ridge:
Jeezus, it's as inaccurate as Craig's poem was all those years ago.
It's a bit of fun for crying out loud.
How polarised are we these days that we can't poke fun at the different subcultures in climbing?
It strikes a nerve, with some, obviously
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> Come on Mick, you are pioneer of sport climbing in Britain. If you can't see how this article is inaccurate then there is no hope.
>
> Come on Mick, you are pioneer of sport climbing in Britain. If you can't see how this article is inaccurate then there is no hope.
Jeezus, it's as inaccurate as Craig's poem was all those years ago.
It's a bit of fun for crying out loud.
How polarised are we these days that we can't poke fun at the different subcultures in climbing?
It strikes a nerve, with some, obviously
The analogy is a bit tedious but
"Trad climbing has more layers of challenge to it..."
seems spot on to me.
"Trad climbing has more layers of challenge to it..."
seems spot on to me.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Glad you agree with David Peters, hopefully you will swallow your pride and learn from your mistakes.
Though your constant shooting down of anyone that disagrees with you, makes me think you might not.
> (In reply to Bob kate bob)
> [...]
>
>
> Yeah, me too.
> [...]
>
>
> Yeah, me too.
Glad you agree with David Peters, hopefully you will swallow your pride and learn from your mistakes.
Though your constant shooting down of anyone that disagrees with you, makes me think you might not.
In reply to UKC Articles: It's just more drivel, first climbing was all about sex, now it is all food related, can't she just write about climbing?
What analogy next, what car you drive effects the type of climbing you prefer, how your birth sign influences your risk taking, are those of us born in winter better winter climbers, do people from apartment blocks prefer multi pitch routes... the options for further drivel are endless.
What analogy next, what car you drive effects the type of climbing you prefer, how your birth sign influences your risk taking, are those of us born in winter better winter climbers, do people from apartment blocks prefer multi pitch routes... the options for further drivel are endless.
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
.
Post link here.....to elitist thread.
Intolerance does climbing a massive diservice, not low grade sports routes.
.
>
> If people are uninspired enough to go sport climbing with the attitude of mediocrity that many UK climbers do, then of course they will not fully appreciate it.
>
> It's attitude like this that make me think that having low grade sport routes in the first place actually does sport climbing a massive dis-service.
>
> If people are uninspired enough to go sport climbing with the attitude of mediocrity that many UK climbers do, then of course they will not fully appreciate it.
>
> It's attitude like this that make me think that having low grade sport routes in the first place actually does sport climbing a massive dis-service.
>
Post link here.....to elitist thread.
Intolerance does climbing a massive diservice, not low grade sports routes.
In reply to Bob kate bob:
Bun fight.
I think it's great. I like it. You don't. Some do like it, others don't.
Time for some growing up Bob kate bob.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
> Glad you agree with David Peters, hopefully you will swallow your pride and learn from your mistakes.
>
> Though your constant shooting down of anyone that disagrees with you, makes me think you might not.
> [...]
>
> Glad you agree with David Peters, hopefully you will swallow your pride and learn from your mistakes.
>
> Though your constant shooting down of anyone that disagrees with you, makes me think you might not.
Bun fight.
I think it's great. I like it. You don't. Some do like it, others don't.
Time for some growing up Bob kate bob.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: i dont think im alone in hating the view that sport is some kind of diluted / bastard version of 'real' climbing i.e. trad or mountaineering. this view is typically held by people who ledge step and / or have never sport climbed in any meaningful way. obsessive and immature maybe but i dislike anything that perpetuates this naive view - the article does exactly that. not so funny...
In reply to summo:
Dam, I was just about to stick the boot in saying this article was a poor rehash of a cliched, old analogy when I read your post and remembered I've made the old climbing as sex analogy myself in an article on here! I'll just have to content myself with saying I though the article was a bit boring, not antagonistic enough to offend or alienate anyone and not funny/clever enoough to entertain. Still, like Mick says, there are probably lots of people who love it.
> It's just more drivel, first climbing was all about sex, now it is all food related, can't she just write about climbing?
Dam, I was just about to stick the boot in saying this article was a poor rehash of a cliched, old analogy when I read your post and remembered I've made the old climbing as sex analogy myself in an article on here! I'll just have to content myself with saying I though the article was a bit boring, not antagonistic enough to offend or alienate anyone and not funny/clever enoough to entertain. Still, like Mick says, there are probably lots of people who love it.
In reply to ksjs:
Do some people have that view ksjs?
New to me. I thought that they were just joking.
says Mick, stroking his beard, pulling up his tweed breaches, and just about to light my pipe...
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com) i dont think im alone in hating the view that sport is some kind of diluted / bastard version of 'real' climbing i.e. trad or mountaineering.
Do some people have that view ksjs?
New to me. I thought that they were just joking.
says Mick, stroking his beard, pulling up his tweed breaches, and just about to light my pipe...
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
True some like it, some don't, the ones that like it if you havn't noticed are heavily in the minority. I actually think that the Author was let down by having it published, Maybe after good critical apprasal from the UKC editorial team and a re-write or 2 it could have been what you where trying to make out it was when it was 1st published. (and not just a joke article, which is the stance you seem to be peddling now).
Ah, you would have disappointed me if you hadn't added in that final sentance, you do like to have the final word, and if it can't be something constructive, why not some playground insult.
Enough said really.
True some like it, some don't, the ones that like it if you havn't noticed are heavily in the minority. I actually think that the Author was let down by having it published, Maybe after good critical apprasal from the UKC editorial team and a re-write or 2 it could have been what you where trying to make out it was when it was 1st published. (and not just a joke article, which is the stance you seem to be peddling now).
Ah, you would have disappointed me if you hadn't added in that final sentance, you do like to have the final word, and if it can't be something constructive, why not some playground insult.
Enough said really.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: <yawns>
In reply to Bob kate bob:
How do you know? Did you email or call the 574 people who have been to that page.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> True some like it, some don't, the ones that like it if you havn't noticed are heavily in the minority.
How do you know? Did you email or call the 574 people who have been to that page.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Hi Mick,
I would like to submit a tongue in cheek article entitled "top ropers are bumbly punters". I'm sure everyone will see the funny side.
Hi Mick,
I would like to submit a tongue in cheek article entitled "top ropers are bumbly punters". I'm sure everyone will see the funny side.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Did you? After all, you were making assumptions about whether people liked it or not...
Did you? After all, you were making assumptions about whether people liked it or not...
In reply to UKC Articles:
I dont understand the fast/slow thing either, I do roughly the same number of trad routes in a day than I do sport routes...
I dont understand the fast/slow thing either, I do roughly the same number of trad routes in a day than I do sport routes...
In reply to UKC Articles: Does eating fast food make you a better cook? Just as with diet the most healthy approach is a little of everything, I have 3 kids so occasionally have to go to Mcdonalds after a life of slow food and now "I'm lovin it". BTW these comments entirely relate the the climbing analagy and not my eating habbits!
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Mick, I think you do a great job. Whatever the state of the article, clearly some of these people need a hug from their mummy.
Mick, I think you do a great job. Whatever the state of the article, clearly some of these people need a hug from their mummy.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Hmmm despite what I wrote (and still think) in my posts above, I do think it's good that UKC publishes a range of opinion/editorial and also a range of articles written by whoever wants to write one.
I also think that if you write a (presumably) deliberately polemical article drawing casually derogatory analogies with what half of the posters on this site do with their time, then you are asking for a bit of a slating.
Hmmm despite what I wrote (and still think) in my posts above, I do think it's good that UKC publishes a range of opinion/editorial and also a range of articles written by whoever wants to write one.
I also think that if you write a (presumably) deliberately polemical article drawing casually derogatory analogies with what half of the posters on this site do with their time, then you are asking for a bit of a slating.
In reply to plexiglass_nick:
Cheers Nick,
Some of the posts on here make some assumptions. I suppose it started with David Peters saying, Mick you are such a shit stirrer, but I suppose this was the reaction you were fishing for .... well done.
David wrongly assumed that I made a decision to publish Sarah's article. We work as a team at UKC editorially, but Jack is the Chief Editor here now, not me, a easy assumption to make as I was virtually solo editorially (and advertising) for two years. My primary role is advertising and editorial support now, Jack has last say editorially.
As regards our editorial policy, and our own values as climbers, all five of us who work at UKC, Alan our Director, Jack, Kevin, Nick and myself, respect all forms of climbing and all climbers. We aren't evangelical about one particular aspect of climbing whether it be bouldering, sport climbing, ice climbing etc
Just prior to Sarah's article going live, which I enjoyed by the way, as did all of us at the UKC office, Jack was working on this
PHOTOS: John Gaskins on Kaizen (Font 8B+)
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=49959
and this
George Ullrich Climbs New North Wales E8
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=49958
One bouldering, one a trad news report. I had just written this sport climbing news item..
Steve McClure On the Telly and Malham News:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=49937
Alan was busy laying out the first Rockfax guide to France...sport climbing.
The point I am trying to make is that we aren't biased against sport climbing or any other type of climbing. We just haven't bought into that one aspect of climbing is better than another like some have..... although we respect those who have because all of us have been there, obsessed by some aspect of climbing.
We do like a good laugh though and Sarah's article did it for us, and some of the responses.
Remember. Alan was the mind behind the Pokketz cartoons that took humorous look at climbers and climbing life.
http://www.rockfax.com/publications/pokketz.html
My first published piece was Training, Tights and Talent which took the micky out of some climbers including myself - I was a rabid sport climber for a while, then later obsessed boulderer. I won't embarrass by linking to some of Jack's funny stuff at UKC that he has authored and worked on..
Oh go on then...Last Great Chimney on Ben Nevis, Font WI 10 X http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=825 and http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=767
I'm glad people enjoyed Chris Doyle's video of Rich Simpson Jack ran. Such devotion and dedication. We love it too, and we could relate to it, but never at the dizzy standard hat Rich achieves.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=49723
We will run funny stuff now again, amongst lots of serious stuff, humour is an odd thing, what's funny to some is an an insult to others.
If you've any contributions, especially humorous stuff, videos, words or images, get in touch ....... ......................with Jack
Mick
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
>
> Hmmm despite what I wrote (and still think) in my posts above, I do think it's good that UKC publishes a range of opinion/editorial and also a range of articles written by whoever wants to write one.
>
>
> Hmmm despite what I wrote (and still think) in my posts above, I do think it's good that UKC publishes a range of opinion/editorial and also a range of articles written by whoever wants to write one.
Cheers Nick,
Some of the posts on here make some assumptions. I suppose it started with David Peters saying, Mick you are such a shit stirrer, but I suppose this was the reaction you were fishing for .... well done.
David wrongly assumed that I made a decision to publish Sarah's article. We work as a team at UKC editorially, but Jack is the Chief Editor here now, not me, a easy assumption to make as I was virtually solo editorially (and advertising) for two years. My primary role is advertising and editorial support now, Jack has last say editorially.
As regards our editorial policy, and our own values as climbers, all five of us who work at UKC, Alan our Director, Jack, Kevin, Nick and myself, respect all forms of climbing and all climbers. We aren't evangelical about one particular aspect of climbing whether it be bouldering, sport climbing, ice climbing etc
Just prior to Sarah's article going live, which I enjoyed by the way, as did all of us at the UKC office, Jack was working on this
PHOTOS: John Gaskins on Kaizen (Font 8B+)
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=49959
and this
George Ullrich Climbs New North Wales E8
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=49958
One bouldering, one a trad news report. I had just written this sport climbing news item..
Steve McClure On the Telly and Malham News:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=49937
Alan was busy laying out the first Rockfax guide to France...sport climbing.
The point I am trying to make is that we aren't biased against sport climbing or any other type of climbing. We just haven't bought into that one aspect of climbing is better than another like some have..... although we respect those who have because all of us have been there, obsessed by some aspect of climbing.
We do like a good laugh though and Sarah's article did it for us, and some of the responses.
Remember. Alan was the mind behind the Pokketz cartoons that took humorous look at climbers and climbing life.
http://www.rockfax.com/publications/pokketz.html
My first published piece was Training, Tights and Talent which took the micky out of some climbers including myself - I was a rabid sport climber for a while, then later obsessed boulderer. I won't embarrass by linking to some of Jack's funny stuff at UKC that he has authored and worked on..
Oh go on then...Last Great Chimney on Ben Nevis, Font WI 10 X http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=825 and http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=767
I'm glad people enjoyed Chris Doyle's video of Rich Simpson Jack ran. Such devotion and dedication. We love it too, and we could relate to it, but never at the dizzy standard hat Rich achieves.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=49723
We will run funny stuff now again, amongst lots of serious stuff, humour is an odd thing, what's funny to some is an an insult to others.
If you've any contributions, especially humorous stuff, videos, words or images, get in touch ....... ......................with Jack
Mick
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Thanks for the link to the old Niff cartoons. Brilliant!!
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
That was a party political broadcast by the UKC Party.
Crazy of anyone to think that you're the editor eh Mick:
'I'm sorry! I neither wrote this article, edited it, or published it.
Mick
Senior Editor and Advertising Manager
UKClimbing.com'
That was a party political broadcast by the UKC Party.
Crazy of anyone to think that you're the editor eh Mick:
'I'm sorry! I neither wrote this article, edited it, or published it.
Mick
Senior Editor and Advertising Manager
UKClimbing.com'
In reply to UKC Articles:
The article taunts sport climbers. All those insensitive food pics. How we supposed to stick to our diets ?.
The article taunts sport climbers. All those insensitive food pics. How we supposed to stick to our diets ?.
In reply to UKC Articles: Now I've read the article, I'm with Mark, Sarah should go and find a good red-point project to do and then come back to her article and see if she's of the same opinion.
Still if this paragraph's true I wouldn't have half as much trouble with my projects: "There are criticisms from both sides about the comparative amount of strength, stamina and endurance involved in each. Trad climbers complain about the sports climbers 'easy life' – how they can 'take': resting to regain strength, look at the moves ahead, and change their position on the rock." You get the impression Sarah is commenting on something she's never actually tried seriously, no wonder some people take offence.
Still if this paragraph's true I wouldn't have half as much trouble with my projects: "There are criticisms from both sides about the comparative amount of strength, stamina and endurance involved in each. Trad climbers complain about the sports climbers 'easy life' – how they can 'take': resting to regain strength, look at the moves ahead, and change their position on the rock." You get the impression Sarah is commenting on something she's never actually tried seriously, no wonder some people take offence.
In reply to chris_j_s:
It is not so much a case of the grade in isolation, it's rather an issue of how the grade influences the style of climbing. There is clear argument that there is little or no point having sport routes where the falls aren't safe and that unfortunately applies to a great number of routes below f6b+ and the majority of routes below 6a, especially with only moderately skilled belaying. If the route isn't one where people are encouraged to push themselves then it really isn't sport climbing, then it's just 'bolt clipping' and some of the time I do think we could probably live quite happily without that type of route.
> Whilst I'm thinking about it what is 'low grade'?
It is not so much a case of the grade in isolation, it's rather an issue of how the grade influences the style of climbing. There is clear argument that there is little or no point having sport routes where the falls aren't safe and that unfortunately applies to a great number of routes below f6b+ and the majority of routes below 6a, especially with only moderately skilled belaying. If the route isn't one where people are encouraged to push themselves then it really isn't sport climbing, then it's just 'bolt clipping' and some of the time I do think we could probably live quite happily without that type of route.
In reply to summo:
Don't give Sarah any ideas!
> (In reply to UKC Articles) It's just more drivel, first climbing was all about sex, now it is all food related, can't she just write about climbing?
>
> What analogy next, what car you drive effects the type of climbing you prefer, how your birth sign influences your risk taking, are those of us born in winter better winter climbers, do people from apartment blocks prefer multi pitch routes... the options for further drivel are endless.
>
> What analogy next, what car you drive effects the type of climbing you prefer, how your birth sign influences your risk taking, are those of us born in winter better winter climbers, do people from apartment blocks prefer multi pitch routes... the options for further drivel are endless.
Don't give Sarah any ideas!
In reply to most of the posters on this thread:
I can only quote from the great Cragrat on another thread:
"It was part of the joke ffs??
How can the lack of perception of humour be so strong on ukc.
Is it cos people are thick? or just wavelength stuff?"
So the author was thinking about bolt-clipping rather than hard redpointing and you all get worked up about it. Always easy to criticise other people's work, isn't it? Here's an idea then - why not contribute an article about the mental and physical journey involved in your latest redpoint project?
I can only quote from the great Cragrat on another thread:
"It was part of the joke ffs??
How can the lack of perception of humour be so strong on ukc.
Is it cos people are thick? or just wavelength stuff?"
So the author was thinking about bolt-clipping rather than hard redpointing and you all get worked up about it. Always easy to criticise other people's work, isn't it? Here's an idea then - why not contribute an article about the mental and physical journey involved in your latest redpoint project?
In reply to UKC Articles: Have just bothered to read this thread having read the article a few days ago. I agree with a lot of other posters, it does seem to be pretty self serving drivel If your going to write an article make it interesting/factual/funny/ironic etc but never tedious inaccurate crap as this one is. I'm a trad climber and not very keen on sport but I can recognise that sport climbing is just as difficult and takes as long to master as trad but in different ways.
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Sorry, but that is absolute nonsense. All my holidays in recent years have been bolt clipping 6's in europe, I've fallen off countless routes at 6a to 6b+ and never even slightly hurt myself. Unless the sport in the UK is alot different to europe?
> (In reply to chris_j_s)
> [...]
>
there is little or no point having sport routes where the falls aren't safe and that unfortunately applies to a great number of routes below f6b+ and the majority of routes below 6a, > [...]
>
Sorry, but that is absolute nonsense. All my holidays in recent years have been bolt clipping 6's in europe, I've fallen off countless routes at 6a to 6b+ and never even slightly hurt myself. Unless the sport in the UK is alot different to europe?
In reply to Misha:
Replace "sport climbing" with "bolt clipping" and the article does not suddenly become uproariously hilarious, though.
Lazy defence. Have you never said "this film/song/book/article is crap" and then failed to offer up your own work?
> (In reply to most of the posters on this thread)
>
> I can only quote from the great Cragrat on another thread:
>
> "It was part of the joke ffs??
> How can the lack of perception of humour be so strong on ukc.
> Is it cos people are thick? or just wavelength stuff?"
>
> So the author was thinking about bolt-clipping rather than hard redpointing and you all get worked up about it.
>
> I can only quote from the great Cragrat on another thread:
>
> "It was part of the joke ffs??
> How can the lack of perception of humour be so strong on ukc.
> Is it cos people are thick? or just wavelength stuff?"
>
> So the author was thinking about bolt-clipping rather than hard redpointing and you all get worked up about it.
Replace "sport climbing" with "bolt clipping" and the article does not suddenly become uproariously hilarious, though.
> Always easy to criticise other people's work, isn't it? Here's an idea then - why not contribute an article about the mental and physical journey involved in your latest redpoint project?
Lazy defence. Have you never said "this film/song/book/article is crap" and then failed to offer up your own work?
In reply to UKC Articles: It's a load of toss. Please no more articles from this author, she appears to know nothing about what she preaches.
In reply to UKC Articles:
>"Big Mac with cheese and a round of fries please."
...Left hand up, finger edge, hang it. Clip. Right foot oout, left foot up, snatch undercut with right.
"Do you want some ketchup?"
"Yeh, ketchup and pickle?"
...Power up. Clip. Finger edge with left, share. Right foot in dimple.
"Oh 'n' throw in a thickshake - strawberry."
...Left foot smear. Left hand up for a tiny.
"Have a nice day!"
...Rock into finger edge. Jug with right. Lock. Lock. Grab belay.
"Jeez. I still feel empty."
Its the same with music - wow, Paloma Faith, she sounds good (Now then Big Mac or Pizza).
What was I thinking - she's shit! ( God , I'm starving already!)
The trad adventure feeds the soul, hones the senses, taxes the mind & stays with you.
The sport experience is lame, lazy, hollow & the memory of it fades oh so fast.
Anyway, who's up for the Cove this weekend
>"Big Mac with cheese and a round of fries please."
...Left hand up, finger edge, hang it. Clip. Right foot oout, left foot up, snatch undercut with right.
"Do you want some ketchup?"
"Yeh, ketchup and pickle?"
...Power up. Clip. Finger edge with left, share. Right foot in dimple.
"Oh 'n' throw in a thickshake - strawberry."
...Left foot smear. Left hand up for a tiny.
"Have a nice day!"
...Rock into finger edge. Jug with right. Lock. Lock. Grab belay.
"Jeez. I still feel empty."
Its the same with music - wow, Paloma Faith, she sounds good (Now then Big Mac or Pizza).
What was I thinking - she's shit! ( God , I'm starving already!)
The trad adventure feeds the soul, hones the senses, taxes the mind & stays with you.
The sport experience is lame, lazy, hollow & the memory of it fades oh so fast.
Anyway, who's up for the Cove this weekend
In reply to Misha:
Shame it wasn't funny.
> (In reply to most of the posters on this thread)
>
> I can only quote from the great Cragrat on another thread:
>
> "It was part of the joke ffs??
>
> I can only quote from the great Cragrat on another thread:
>
> "It was part of the joke ffs??
Shame it wasn't funny.
In reply to UKC Articles:
C'mon folks. It is just a tongue in cheek, light hearted piece which I rather enjoyed. If you read the section about Sarah at the bottom of the article it clearly infers with "the learning curve of her new addiction" that she is a relative novice but very passionate about climbing, whether it be Sport or Trad. Also with the link to her blog on "Climber" it is clearly self-deprecating with the reference on "mostly about how not to climb". Everyone has the right to an opinion on whether a piece is well-written or not, but I for one would struggle to write an article. It would be nice to see some of the folks who have been so damning in their criticism actually take the time, trouble & skill to write a piece and submit to UKC!
C'mon folks. It is just a tongue in cheek, light hearted piece which I rather enjoyed. If you read the section about Sarah at the bottom of the article it clearly infers with "the learning curve of her new addiction" that she is a relative novice but very passionate about climbing, whether it be Sport or Trad. Also with the link to her blog on "Climber" it is clearly self-deprecating with the reference on "mostly about how not to climb". Everyone has the right to an opinion on whether a piece is well-written or not, but I for one would struggle to write an article. It would be nice to see some of the folks who have been so damning in their criticism actually take the time, trouble & skill to write a piece and submit to UKC!
In reply to Blue Straggler:
I didn't find the article hilarious but thought it was amusing. A lot of people here almost seem to have taken offence, which is just silly.
Urging people to write something for themselves is not a lazy defence in the context of UKC. Criticising films or books is not a good analogy as most people don't have the skills to make a commercial film or write a book. A lot of people on here would however be able to write a decent UKC article if they put their mind to it. To a large extent, it's a user-driven site and is what people make of it. I'm sure Jack would have no problems with putting up a good article about the trials and tribulations of hard redpointing. For my part, I would enjoy reading it.
I didn't find the article hilarious but thought it was amusing. A lot of people here almost seem to have taken offence, which is just silly.
Urging people to write something for themselves is not a lazy defence in the context of UKC. Criticising films or books is not a good analogy as most people don't have the skills to make a commercial film or write a book. A lot of people on here would however be able to write a decent UKC article if they put their mind to it. To a large extent, it's a user-driven site and is what people make of it. I'm sure Jack would have no problems with putting up a good article about the trials and tribulations of hard redpointing. For my part, I would enjoy reading it.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Either let UKClimbing be a place of free speech or let only mainstream opinions be voiced. But you can't have it both ways deciding which extreme opinions can be voiced and which can't.
Either let UKClimbing be a place of free speech or let only mainstream opinions be voiced. But you can't have it both ways deciding which extreme opinions can be voiced and which can't.
In reply to Misha:
Fair points.
As you say, it is a user-driven site. My underlying point is that Sarah Flint's writing has been roundly criticised in the past (her "belay bunnies" article). If people don't state their opinions, it could be assumed that everyone wants more of this kind of stuff, whereas the converse seems to be true. Some articles are good and some are bad; I think it would be a shame to dilute the better content with less well-regarded stuff. Thus, public criticism does have its place.
Fair points.
As you say, it is a user-driven site. My underlying point is that Sarah Flint's writing has been roundly criticised in the past (her "belay bunnies" article). If people don't state their opinions, it could be assumed that everyone wants more of this kind of stuff, whereas the converse seems to be true. Some articles are good and some are bad; I think it would be a shame to dilute the better content with less well-regarded stuff. Thus, public criticism does have its place.
In reply to UKC Articles: I haven't taken offence to the article it's just silly inaccurate nonsense that will obviously offend more ardent sports climbers
In reply to Blue Straggler:
Hi Blue,
It's great isn't it that anything we publish at UKC: news, articles, gear etc and anyone can comment on, they can say if they like it (quite rare) or if they don't (common).
People are generally slow to praise and quick to criticise.
You don't have that option with user driven print media. They exist in a bubble isolated from those they serve.
Be very wary of judging something by forum comments. Few comment, thousands don't.
As I said earlier, what some find funny, others won't. That's how humour is.
Mick
Hi Blue,
It's great isn't it that anything we publish at UKC: news, articles, gear etc and anyone can comment on, they can say if they like it (quite rare) or if they don't (common).
People are generally slow to praise and quick to criticise.
You don't have that option with user driven print media. They exist in a bubble isolated from those they serve.
> If people don't state their opinions, it could be assumed that everyone wants more of this kind of stuff, whereas the converse seems to be true.
Be very wary of judging something by forum comments. Few comment, thousands don't.
As I said earlier, what some find funny, others won't. That's how humour is.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
New ardent sport climbing stuff...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=49979
New ardent sport climbing stuff...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=49979
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
I think that's elitist rubbish. Sports climbing can be F2+, or F8a.
And I love cruising easy sports routes.
And not everyone falls off sports climbing.
> (In reply to chris_j_s)
> [...]
>
> It is not so much a case of the grade in isolation, it's rather an issue of how the grade influences the style of climbing. There is clear argument that there is little or no point having sport routes where the falls aren't safe and that unfortunately applies to a great number of routes below f6b+ and the majority of routes below 6a, especially with only moderately skilled belaying. If the route isn't one where people are encouraged to push themselves then it really isn't sport climbing, then it's just 'bolt clipping' and some of the time I do think we could probably live quite happily without that type of route.
> [...]
>
> It is not so much a case of the grade in isolation, it's rather an issue of how the grade influences the style of climbing. There is clear argument that there is little or no point having sport routes where the falls aren't safe and that unfortunately applies to a great number of routes below f6b+ and the majority of routes below 6a, especially with only moderately skilled belaying. If the route isn't one where people are encouraged to push themselves then it really isn't sport climbing, then it's just 'bolt clipping' and some of the time I do think we could probably live quite happily without that type of route.
I think that's elitist rubbish. Sports climbing can be F2+, or F8a.
And I love cruising easy sports routes.
And not everyone falls off sports climbing.
In reply to UKC Articles:
Top roping is ideal for a beginner and doesn't involve any waiting or removal of gear...
Single pitch sport doesn't actually require a second at all, tie off at the top thread the lower-off and you can often clear all your clips on the way down, then your "second" gets to lead too or can just top rope from the lower-off (if it's safe). Admittedly belaying while someone works a route can be a bore though...
Single pitch trad offers more fun for the leader (within it's own arena I'm not comparing it to sport here) the second has the "bore" of extended belaying has their route inconvenienced with the removal of gear without the engagement of choosing those placements. Most happy tradders swing leads on a day out so that both get the full experience.
If you're not up to leading, ever, then trad isn't ever going to fulfill you as a second, simple as that. Find a sport partner or stick to top-roping till you're ready.
Dinosaurs like me learned to switch leads from our first days out and grew to love trad from the start. Nowadays that's not how people approach the sport (for loads of reasons some good some fundamentally flawed) so they might well prefer to spend their time as a second TRing or Sporting. That's just fine!
Top roping is ideal for a beginner and doesn't involve any waiting or removal of gear...
Single pitch sport doesn't actually require a second at all, tie off at the top thread the lower-off and you can often clear all your clips on the way down, then your "second" gets to lead too or can just top rope from the lower-off (if it's safe). Admittedly belaying while someone works a route can be a bore though...
Single pitch trad offers more fun for the leader (within it's own arena I'm not comparing it to sport here) the second has the "bore" of extended belaying has their route inconvenienced with the removal of gear without the engagement of choosing those placements. Most happy tradders swing leads on a day out so that both get the full experience.
If you're not up to leading, ever, then trad isn't ever going to fulfill you as a second, simple as that. Find a sport partner or stick to top-roping till you're ready.
Dinosaurs like me learned to switch leads from our first days out and grew to love trad from the start. Nowadays that's not how people approach the sport (for loads of reasons some good some fundamentally flawed) so they might well prefer to spend their time as a second TRing or Sporting. That's just fine!
In reply to fishy1:
It isn't rubbish. There is a clear distinction between bolt clipping for the convenience of it and for bolt clipping as an enabler to climb as hard as you possibly can (which inevitably means falls).
If thats elitist in your book, so be it. Better than accepting one level of mediocrity for everyone.
>
> I think that's elitist rubbish. Sports climbing can be F2+, or F8a.
>
>> I think that's elitist rubbish. Sports climbing can be F2+, or F8a.
>
It isn't rubbish. There is a clear distinction between bolt clipping for the convenience of it and for bolt clipping as an enabler to climb as hard as you possibly can (which inevitably means falls).
If thats elitist in your book, so be it. Better than accepting one level of mediocrity for everyone.
Still this UK trad snobbery disqualifying sport climbing as less value. Smells like old issues of "Mountain" from the days when the french "fried" the brits having tuned themselves on bolted sportroutes. I am a climber since 30 years and have climbed extensively in all routines: trad, sport, soloing, bouldering, ice, alpine, and I truly enjoy a good sport climb! There is no specific merit in placing natural pro. Use natural pro where it can be placed and bolt the rest!
In reply to kullamannen:
And therein lies the issue with your viewpoint. To take on all the problems a climb poses, including the question of ensuring some degree of safety (including posessing the mind control when the gear is not available) is what makes trad climbs so memorable, even though sometimes the moves are easier than those a climber may attempt on a sport route. To say trad lines should only exist where there is gear is a bit of a fallacy as bold trad lines exist where the gear is spaced or poor.
> There is no specific merit in placing natural pro. Use natural pro where it can be placed and bolt the rest!
And therein lies the issue with your viewpoint. To take on all the problems a climb poses, including the question of ensuring some degree of safety (including posessing the mind control when the gear is not available) is what makes trad climbs so memorable, even though sometimes the moves are easier than those a climber may attempt on a sport route. To say trad lines should only exist where there is gear is a bit of a fallacy as bold trad lines exist where the gear is spaced or poor.
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