UKC

Hi,
I have a question about using half ropes when you're sport climbing:
Is it ok to clip both ropes into the quickdraw or do you run the risk of melting your ropes should you fall? I have seen it being done both ways...
Thanks!
Sophie

In reply to sonnenstern:

alternate. not meant to be used as double ropes

In reply to sonnenstern: It's not melting the ropes that's the issue it's more to do with the loading on the karabiner if you clip two 9mm ropes together. If rope melting was an issue climbing with twin skinnies (7.5mm), where you do clip both ropes, would not be a good idea either. Having said that with modern karabiners I'm not sure if this is still an issue and I can think of situations where I might clip skinnies seperately. If the pro was a bit iffy for example.

Al

In reply to sonnenstern:

This one comes up quite oftenon hereand it's amazing how many people seem to have very strong but misinformed opinions.

With modern half-ropes and carabiners there's no safety reason why you shouldn't clip both ropes into each quickdraw. There's also no safety reason why you shouldn't alternate. The safety margins are way too big for gear failure to be a real outcome.

The only potential safety implication would arise if you clipped both ropes into one draw and then clipped only one of the ropes into another higher up. A subsequent fall would weight only that one rope, causing it to tighten abruptly against the non-weighted rope in the karabiner lower down. While this itself is highly unlikely to be sufficient to trash a rope with a single fall, doing so frequently could lead to significant and completely unnecessary wear on your ropes.

Hope this helps.

In reply to sonnenstern:
it says in the libby peters book (used as the SPA handbook) to clip both ropes into all crabs when going straight, alternate when traversing or on natural gear... basically i would trust her, as someone trusts her enough to print her book... opposed to some people who think they know better...^^^ up there somewhere

In reply to mark_wellin:

Perfectly reasonable advice, as long as it doesn't get misinterpreted as 'clip both for the straight parts of the pitch and then alternate for any traverse parts', for reasons explained above. I.e. keep to the same system for a whole pitch, whichever you choose.

In reply to john arran: Thanks for putting us all straight. I have to admit that my knowledge is probably out of date and based on tests done some years ago. What is the source of your information as I would like to check this out for myself before I change any habits.

Al

In reply to sonnenstern:

alternate with doubles on wandering routes - otherwise save yourself the anguish and use a single.

In reply to ice.solo: What about the increase safety and reduced impact loading in the event of a fall, by using half ropes instead of singles Check this thread for the same arguement last week.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=377825&v=1#x5475630

The thing about half rope in the same Krab is to stop one slipping past the other when loaded and then gettting friction burns, This can happen very rapidly under load.

Unles you are using twin ropes you should really use two krabs.

And Never clip two then later clip singles, very dangerous.

In reply to sonnenstern: Half Ropes should be clipped into seperate krabs, Twin Ropes are designed to be clipped into the same krab, look at page 15 of the attached...

http://www.mammut.ch/images/Seilfibel_E_030617.pdf

In reply to Iain McKenzie:

not true, which common sense would dictate (ie why would there be a magic dividing line of rope diameter above which you should not use twin rope techniques?) plus see page 15 of your link which says using half ropes gives you "the choice between twin rope technique, where both ropes run parallel through the protection and half rope technique, where the «left» and «right» ropes run separately through different protection points."

What you do not want to do is mix and match between the two techniques.....but I'm sure this has been explained on here before ad nauseum.

In reply to Morgan Woods: That was the reason I posted the link. The OP has no profile, I can’t assume that means there is any knowledge base to explain techniques or even if she knows the difference between a half rope and a twin rope.

She said she has seen it done both ways, from a distance watching people climb I can’t tell the difference between what a half rope looks like and what a twin rope looks like, therefore I can only assume what the ropes are by how they are being used, hence she may have seen different people using different ropes and assumed they are the same type of rope.

The long and the short of what the ropes are designed for and their intended use is explained in the document, I posted it for her to read, have a look and make a decision based on what is there…

In reply to Iain McKenzie:
as i said above, a published author says that your wrong and both ropes can and should be clipped into each runner. this persons book is also used as the source material for the SPA training... so get over yourself, you dont know beter... both ropes into each runner when going straight up, alternate if you like or if the route wanders, but never swap between the two techniques.

In reply to sonnenstern: I had not done any recent research into this as I own single, half and twin ropes and have always used them in the manner recommended by the manufacturer and with regard to what I was climbing. Many years ago, circa 1970's ???, I spoke to someone who worked for Edelrid and at that time there was a concern that clipping 2 x 9mm ropes into one krab loaded the krab in a way that it was not designed to cope with. My latest investigations have failed to find any evidence that this is still an issue. Assuming it ever was in reality.

Different manufactureres seem to be offering conflicting or at best unclear advice on the subject. I have come to the conclusion that, as others have pointed out, the only dangerous practice with both twin and half rope methods would be to clip a single rope after previously clipping both as this would create a scenario where one rope would be crushed up against another and cause potentially dangerous friction at the last point where both ropes are clipped. One rope would be moving very fast and the other could be stationary.

To summarise. Whenever possible use the appropriate method in line with the manufactureres recommendation whenever possible. If you want to clip both ropes, in a half rope configuration, into a krab it should be ok and I certainly would not lose much sleep over this even though I cannot see any real advantage in doing so. Mammut suggest that this is OK, others are less clear.

DO NOT change to clipping a single rope after having clipped both ropes previously. Some advanced ice climbing books do seem to suggest that in the case of poor ice screw placements doing exactly this could be the lesser of two evils as it would dramatically reduce the load on the screw as a single rope would stretch more than two. Perhaps that's a topic for another post but I'll cross that bridge if and when I come to it.

Al

In reply to sonnenstern:

I use half ropes most of the time for multi and single pitch sport climbing as it allows longer abseils, lowers, less rope drag and increased safety in the event of difficulties, damaged rope or an accident. Also it saves the limited baggage weight when travelling by air abroad to do trad, alpine and sport.
One of the problems on the longer steep routes is clipping the increase weight of two half ropes together into the crab when more than thirty plus metres out. It's often easier and quicker to alternate clip one light half rope at a time.
The other big advantage when near your limit is that you are better protected when clipping one rope above your head by the second rope in the last bit of gear. You can also easily aid difficulties on overhangs!
In the event of a fall onto dodgy protection, ice or rock there is less shock load on the anchors.

The disadvantages are there is more rope stretch in the event of a fall and it takes more rope management skills to avoid twists.

All in all there are far more advantages once you start doing multi-pitch sport and even more when you go onto to do multi-pitch mountain or alpine trad...

In reply to Ron Walker: I think the Brits invented half rope technique and for many years the Americans and the Continentals just did not get it. I still think that it is the safest and most flexible method of ropework which can be made to work in ANY situation. This cannot be said of single ropes and twins although I do use both of those techniques when it is appropriate.

Al

In reply to stonewall:


This statement is so wrong, if you don't know what you are on about why bother posting?

OP - see http://www.mammut.ch/en/ropes_dynamic_ropetypes.html

Its high time that UKC had an FAQ on this since every one of these threads becomes a huge fight. Usually amongst people that either cant explain eloquently enough to for folk to understand or just plain don't know what they're talking about.