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![[OS Map, 8 kb]](http://img.ukclimbing.com/t/129714.jpg "[OS Map, 8 kb]")
Government U-Turn has Positive Prospects for Climbers:
As of April next year the Ordnance Survey (OS) will be allowing free access to map data down to a scale of 1:10,000.
The possibilities for climbers are quite profound, as websites such as UKC will be able to use high detail OS maps to show crag locations which could be integrated in to GPS or mobile phone technology.
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=50506
In reply to UKC News: Potentially awesome news, look forward to seeing how this develops.
To start off with nearly everyone in the GIS data capture and supply sector has a strong dislike for the OS, their data uses and ‘derived data licence’. This means if you for example draw the line of your bike ride on an OS map the OS own the rights to this data, i.e. to reproduce it (even without showing the background map) you have to pay a licence. This has huge repercussions for all data owners because people want to maintain ownership of there own data.
The guardian news paper has not been at the forefront of anything; the free out data campaign was started by GIS users for GIS users and was high jacket as a suedo political topic by the media (as usual and in this case usefully). Local councils and commercial companies have been screaming for this for years as there are certain monopolies that the OS hold that are unbreakable, for example the derived data licence problem, and the ‘Address point’ database of georefrenced address used by the post office. There is no alternative available and all new address data is transferred from the post office to the OS, other companies can’t get a look in.
Another example is the boundary line data sets showing counties, districts and parishes etc, if any changes are made the OS has to be notified while other companies and interested parties are not. This means it is impossible to release and alternative product and OS hold on to there monopoly. Go and try and find an exact map of your parish for free…. No chance.
Printed climbing maps are a very nice idea but it is extremely unlikely they will allow free data to be used in this way, the OS have to retain some intellectual ownership of their data or becomes worthless. An open licence like this would allow any company to get the data, trace/digitize the mapping and sell there own rival product. (As my company is ready to do if it goes this way). A reduction in price would be a more likely scenario although I’m not sure they will be able to afford that if changes are made. The paper maps market will always revolve around the OS and freeing the data is likely to only put there price up!
If people are simply after free mapping go to the OS Openspace website , there is already freely available maps down to 1:10,000 scale (not including 1:25,000). There are also many open source mapping communities, if you guys want free data why don’t you get together and produce it…. Get rid of the OS altogether and make a ‘climbing map of Britain’ (maybe ask UKC nicely for there crag coordinates)
See
http://peoplesmap.com/
http://www.openstreetmap.org/
http://wikimapia.org/
The change is very unlikely to be made anytime soon or at all, the OS have been resisting change for years and there is no way they will be stopping now. The torys are also very likely to be in before a decision is made and it is unlikely they will go the free data direction – more likely the privatise it option (more the Tory style). So although this sounds nice don’t get to excited this is nothing new and it is very unlikely to happen.
Tom (GIS, RS and Cartogrphic tecnician)
The guardian news paper has not been at the forefront of anything; the free out data campaign was started by GIS users for GIS users and was high jacket as a suedo political topic by the media (as usual and in this case usefully). Local councils and commercial companies have been screaming for this for years as there are certain monopolies that the OS hold that are unbreakable, for example the derived data licence problem, and the ‘Address point’ database of georefrenced address used by the post office. There is no alternative available and all new address data is transferred from the post office to the OS, other companies can’t get a look in.
Another example is the boundary line data sets showing counties, districts and parishes etc, if any changes are made the OS has to be notified while other companies and interested parties are not. This means it is impossible to release and alternative product and OS hold on to there monopoly. Go and try and find an exact map of your parish for free…. No chance.
Printed climbing maps are a very nice idea but it is extremely unlikely they will allow free data to be used in this way, the OS have to retain some intellectual ownership of their data or becomes worthless. An open licence like this would allow any company to get the data, trace/digitize the mapping and sell there own rival product. (As my company is ready to do if it goes this way). A reduction in price would be a more likely scenario although I’m not sure they will be able to afford that if changes are made. The paper maps market will always revolve around the OS and freeing the data is likely to only put there price up!
If people are simply after free mapping go to the OS Openspace website , there is already freely available maps down to 1:10,000 scale (not including 1:25,000). There are also many open source mapping communities, if you guys want free data why don’t you get together and produce it…. Get rid of the OS altogether and make a ‘climbing map of Britain’ (maybe ask UKC nicely for there crag coordinates)
See
http://peoplesmap.com/
http://www.openstreetmap.org/
http://wikimapia.org/
The change is very unlikely to be made anytime soon or at all, the OS have been resisting change for years and there is no way they will be stopping now. The torys are also very likely to be in before a decision is made and it is unlikely they will go the free data direction – more likely the privatise it option (more the Tory style). So although this sounds nice don’t get to excited this is nothing new and it is very unlikely to happen.
Tom (GIS, RS and Cartogrphic tecnician)
Does anyone else have any imput i would be very inrsted to hear some other opinions?
In reply to Tom_Harding:
Don't know what is planned here but I thought the argument for free data (generally, not just maps) was that it is worth making publically derived data free because of the economic benefits elsewhere. If this is the case here then presumably OS data could be entirely free. The OS and others would make money from selling maps and other things derived from that data. The tax generated by the increase in economic activity would offset any increase in the public cost of running the OS.
> Does anyone else have any imput i would be very inrsted to hear some other opinions?
Don't know what is planned here but I thought the argument for free data (generally, not just maps) was that it is worth making publically derived data free because of the economic benefits elsewhere. If this is the case here then presumably OS data could be entirely free. The OS and others would make money from selling maps and other things derived from that data. The tax generated by the increase in economic activity would offset any increase in the public cost of running the OS.
In reply to Tom_Harding:
I think in the USA most government data is freely available to the public and to business for their use. But, I only know for sure about marine charting.
Draconian licensing agreements benefit neither the OS, the public or businesses. The same goes for the UKHO (marine charts).
I was speaking to someone at a GIS software company in the USA a couple of weeks ago who did think the OS data was of a high quality (better than their equivalent). In our desire to get the data for free we need to make sure that remains the case.
I think in the USA most government data is freely available to the public and to business for their use. But, I only know for sure about marine charting.
Draconian licensing agreements benefit neither the OS, the public or businesses. The same goes for the UKHO (marine charts).
I was speaking to someone at a GIS software company in the USA a couple of weeks ago who did think the OS data was of a high quality (better than their equivalent). In our desire to get the data for free we need to make sure that remains the case.
In reply to MG:
There has apparently been a report suggesting that making OS data free would 'cost' £12M but bring commercial benefits worth £156M, which would make up in tax revenue for the lost direct revenue:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/nov/19/ordnance-survey-maps-free-...
There has apparently been a report suggesting that making OS data free would 'cost' £12M but bring commercial benefits worth £156M, which would make up in tax revenue for the lost direct revenue:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/nov/19/ordnance-survey-maps-free-...
In reply to MG: Yes that is correct, a similar structure in the US already exists. Tax payers money is used to maintain the maps through the USGS (The US's OS).
In reply to UKC News: Yes toni, thats right jst 12 million, when the OS were asked how much it would cost they rekoned around 1.2billion over 10 years! a slight diffrence and one that hasent been explained yet really. If i had to trust anyones pricing i think i will go with the OS.
In reply to Tom_Harding:
So why do you doubt that is what is planned here? Just general reluctance from officials?
> (In reply to MG) Yes that is correct, a similar structure in the US already exists. Tax payers money is used to maintain the maps through the USGS (The US's OS).
So why do you doubt that is what is planned here? Just general reluctance from officials?
In reply to MG:
Googling suggests the turnover of the OS is only around £120m.
The UKHO turned over £94m.
Both make a few million profit for the taxpayer.
Making it free might help business considerably (and so be worth it).
Carrying on selling it but in a more reasonable manner might be an option too.
Googling suggests the turnover of the OS is only around £120m.
The UKHO turned over £94m.
Both make a few million profit for the taxpayer.
Making it free might help business considerably (and so be worth it).
Carrying on selling it but in a more reasonable manner might be an option too.
In reply to UKC News:
Interviewer: "So, Gordon, why have you decided to allow free access to the OS data"
GB: "We needed a global solution to a global problem, we now have a map of the world that we saved. It was the right thing to do, and anyway Peter told me to...oh, b*gger, can you edit out that last bit?"
Interviewer: "So, Gordon, why have you decided to allow free access to the OS data"
GB: "We needed a global solution to a global problem, we now have a map of the world that we saved. It was the right thing to do, and anyway Peter told me to...oh, b*gger, can you edit out that last bit?"
In reply to UKC News:
I wonder if Google Mapping has anything to do with this? As they scan better and better they will have some of the best stuff, but it still needs checking on the ground, like this being shown as being the shortest way with a car from Harrogate to Keighley;
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/idld.srf?X=410561&Y=446108&A=Y&Z=120...
I wonder if Google Mapping has anything to do with this? As they scan better and better they will have some of the best stuff, but it still needs checking on the ground, like this being shown as being the shortest way with a car from Harrogate to Keighley;
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/idld.srf?X=410561&Y=446108&A=Y&Z=120...
In reply to Tom_Harding:
Is £1.2bn assuming that the OS would no longer have any revenue? And roughly their costs are 100m or so a year. Multiple that by 10 and factor in inflation.
If they provided the data for download with some restrictions and continued to sell maps and other services they'd still have some revenue.
Is £1.2bn assuming that the OS would no longer have any revenue? And roughly their costs are 100m or so a year. Multiple that by 10 and factor in inflation.
If they provided the data for download with some restrictions and continued to sell maps and other services they'd still have some revenue.
In reply to UKC News: A couple of years ago some bright spark copied a few rockfax guidebooks for open use - i.e. free. and put them up on the web. I wasn't surprised in the least to see Alan James and Co wage legal war within seconds (I joined in too). They were closed down within hours. We all want free access of course - eerr until it affects the income from our hard work of course. Just like music, small time copying goes on and so long as the creatives make enough money, everyone turns a blind eye. I think that the only drawback with free to use OS mapping from online and consequent useage, is that shops all over the UK will think - what's the point of stocking them and tying up shop capital. Just like most folk enjoy listening to MP3 at an awful low sample rate, through tinny earpiece speakers - they are going to be happy with splodgy map data that is only 75% correct (the probable result when OS is privatised). Just like music afficionados will know, HMV only stock stuff like Dizzie R (no offence Dizzie), and mapping is very likely to follow that general example. Climbers and walkers will always be able to get stuff they want - but will miss the good old days when you could pick up a damm good map in most shops.
In reply to David A-J:
No legal war was waged, but I did protest to the person who was doing it, and the web site server that he was doing it on.
I think you are wrong about what will happen to maps. I think that it will lead to much better maps, both online and offline, probably with the OS leading the way.
Alan
> (In reply to UKC News) A couple of years ago some bright spark copied a few rockfax guidebooks for open use - i.e. free. and put them up on the web. I wasn't surprised in the least to see Alan James and Co wage legal war within seconds (I joined in too). They were closed down within hours.
No legal war was waged, but I did protest to the person who was doing it, and the web site server that he was doing it on.
I think you are wrong about what will happen to maps. I think that it will lead to much better maps, both online and offline, probably with the OS leading the way.
Alan
In reply to sutty: Google and Microsoft Live local pay contracts worth millions to get 'free' data, the OS dont supply any of this data as the derived licensig problem comes in. The maps you see are moustly vector roads captured by Navteq and the sailiar. As a buisness they dont have any intrest in crags, forests, hills, boundaries etc so will never included them in their data capture program.
In reply to Alan James - UKC: When has a public government owned company ever made a product better then the commercially avaiable offerings...
In reply to Tom_Harding: OS maps, BBC news.
In reply to UKC News: So does this mean that when you buy a gps, for example Garmin Oregon 550 or Satmap active 10, which uses OS data but charges a large amount for the OS data cards (25k scale being particularly expensive), in the future the mapping could be free? That would be pretty sweet - you could buy a nice gps and put the whole of the UK on at 25k scale for minimal cost.
In reply to Alan James - UKC:
With you all the way Alan.
It will also lead to better guidebooks - walking and biking more so than climbing, and may even help increase the number of people who can actually read a map if things become standardised. Although I realise this number is probably falling fast because of GPS's.
I assume it will also make digital map data like Memory Map and Anquet cheaper, and also the background maps on things like SatMap and ViewRanger.
With you all the way Alan.
It will also lead to better guidebooks - walking and biking more so than climbing, and may even help increase the number of people who can actually read a map if things become standardised. Although I realise this number is probably falling fast because of GPS's.
I assume it will also make digital map data like Memory Map and Anquet cheaper, and also the background maps on things like SatMap and ViewRanger.
In reply to MG: The OS is a government owned 'privite' company, it runs its own buisness with no pressure from the gov in any way. The only part that makes them public is the address-point databse and boundary files. Local government buys products from them with real cash through the Mapping Services Agreement so you cant realy call them a public owned company.
The BBC now gets a large amount of its revenue from outside sources not just fee payers, but yes this is one of the best examples. Although no one realy knows the quality of the news anyway as so much of the intresting stuff is served with D-Notices.
The BBC now gets a large amount of its revenue from outside sources not just fee payers, but yes this is one of the best examples. Although no one realy knows the quality of the news anyway as so much of the intresting stuff is served with D-Notices.
The free maps for personal use are already availbale - here there are....
http://www.kent-trails.co.uk/Routes/GPX%20traces/gpxexample.html?f=Dover_ca...
Free our data is asking for alot more, basically giving up the interlectual rights for their own data.
http://www.kent-trails.co.uk/Routes/GPX%20traces/gpxexample.html?f=Dover_ca...
Free our data is asking for alot more, basically giving up the interlectual rights for their own data.
In reply to Tom_Harding:
They don't behave much like a private company do they?
Also I'm guessing most of the board are from a civil service background.
Also
"Ordnance Survey’s objective is to deliver its public task. The Shareholder Executive is in the process of reviewing Ordnance Survey’s public task to ensure it reflects the new business strategy..."
http://www.shareholderexecutive.gov.uk/performance/os.asp
They don't behave much like a private company do they?
Also I'm guessing most of the board are from a civil service background.
Also
"Ordnance Survey’s objective is to deliver its public task. The Shareholder Executive is in the process of reviewing Ordnance Survey’s public task to ensure it reflects the new business strategy..."
http://www.shareholderexecutive.gov.uk/performance/os.asp
In reply to Swig: 1:10,000 isn't their finest grade. 10 years ago, I used to buy digital mapping at 1:100 which cost about £110 per hectare. I would imagine they make a killing on this since most site plans / road schemes / anything that gets built is initially planned on this sort of mapping as it is cheaper than getting an initial survey.
In reply to Tom Hutton:
I saw today that Decathlon now sell a GPS "designed for OCCASIONAL hikers wanting to find the place they started from!" for £30.
Hopefully there are no cliffs, rivers, bogs etc in the way.
> Although I realise this number is probably falling fast because of GPS's.
I saw today that Decathlon now sell a GPS "designed for OCCASIONAL hikers wanting to find the place they started from!" for £30.
Hopefully there are no cliffs, rivers, bogs etc in the way.
In reply to EeeByGum: All the scales made by the OS are bassed of a product called 'Mastermap' its between 1:1500 and 1:3000 scale depending on where you are in the country. All other scales are generated from this using a clever genralisation algoritham and abit of manual work. The mastermap for the whiole country will cost you almost £2million so even samller areas are out of the question for the genral public to use.
I agree 1:10,000 is rubbish
I agree 1:10,000 is rubbish
Just to clarify, the data avaailable abvailable through OS open space is called streetview its at 1:10000 but is a diffrent product to standart 1:10
In reply to UKC News: It will beinteresting to see how this pans out. I don't think that the free data is going to include the 1:25k and 1:50k mapping as the OS derive quite a lot of revenue from said products through licencing its use to companies such as Memory Map and satmap to name a couple!.
In reply to anthonyecc: Those data sets are worth a fraction of the OS's 'good stuff' and are pretty secondary in their buisness model. Id be very intrested top know how satmap can afford the OS mapping its worth more then the GPS itself.
In reply to Tom_Harding: they charge each user £80 for the privalidge of accessing thier online route planner. I personally have no problem in paying for such data even if it is a government body. besides there isn't a petition to get Passports for free!
In reply to UKC News: It would be superb if we could include OS maps as an option on the UKC crag maps:
- http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/map/
I've wanted this for at least 8 years!
here's hoping that it actually happens - free use of map tiles at 1:25000 and 1:10000, and none of the 'derived data' nonsense that their current licensing model insists on...
Are we also going to be allowed to use the tide prediction constants as well??
- http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/map/
I've wanted this for at least 8 years!
here's hoping that it actually happens - free use of map tiles at 1:25000 and 1:10000, and none of the 'derived data' nonsense that their current licensing model insists on...
Are we also going to be allowed to use the tide prediction constants as well??
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
RE: Tide Prediction constants. The UKHO are definitely behind the OS with respect to giving anything away. Full harmonic constants for the UK might be a bit much for them right now. Very slowly inching in the right direction though.
RE: Tide Prediction constants. The UKHO are definitely behind the OS with respect to giving anything away. Full harmonic constants for the UK might be a bit much for them right now. Very slowly inching in the right direction though.
In reply to Swig: I always thought the UKHO was particularly unreasonable. The OS map data for the UK is many many gigabytes of data, while the harmonic constants are just a handful of simple numbers that the UKHO won't let people use.
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
Those harmonic constants are derived from a huge volume of tide gauge records!
The tide constants are a small part of their business compared to Charts and they apply similar licensing rules to those as they do to harmonic data.
Actually it seems they might be less unreasonable these days. So I've emailed you.
Those harmonic constants are derived from a huge volume of tide gauge records!
The tide constants are a small part of their business compared to Charts and they apply similar licensing rules to those as they do to harmonic data.
Actually it seems they might be less unreasonable these days. So I've emailed you.
In reply to UKC News:
I'm yet to be convinced that this will actually happen, there's lots of talk about what it means but very little certainty.
All the talk I've seen has been about making all mid-scale Ordnance Survey maps freely available ONLINE ( 250k, 50k, 25k, Streetview(1:10000) ), nothing about being able to download data and use it in memory map style applications or on PDAs, gps etc.
Streetview is pretty rubbish for anything outdoorsy, it just doesn't have the detail. Compared below
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e110/ebygomm/Streetview50k.jpg
All these scales are freely available online already for personal use - 25k is in multimap and the other's are available through OS openspace which is the underlying thing on applications like Wheres the Path
http://wtp2.appspot.com/wheresthepath.htm
Whilst I can see that it might be very nice to have OS maps on UKC I can't really see a huge benefit elsewhere.
As it stands I can't see what's to stop OS making up any losses they incur giving away this data by upping the costs on their other products - namely mastermap, increasing costs to local authorities who already provide a large proportion of OS income. And unless the derived data issue goes away then I'm very sceptical about the cost savings they talk about, or any talk of 'open' or 'free' access to data. (Completely ignoring the fact that any product that is paid for by the taxpayer and then resold for the taxpayer to buy again can never be 'free')
I'm yet to be convinced that this will actually happen, there's lots of talk about what it means but very little certainty.
All the talk I've seen has been about making all mid-scale Ordnance Survey maps freely available ONLINE ( 250k, 50k, 25k, Streetview(1:10000) ), nothing about being able to download data and use it in memory map style applications or on PDAs, gps etc.
Streetview is pretty rubbish for anything outdoorsy, it just doesn't have the detail. Compared below
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e110/ebygomm/Streetview50k.jpg
All these scales are freely available online already for personal use - 25k is in multimap and the other's are available through OS openspace which is the underlying thing on applications like Wheres the Path
http://wtp2.appspot.com/wheresthepath.htm
Whilst I can see that it might be very nice to have OS maps on UKC I can't really see a huge benefit elsewhere.
As it stands I can't see what's to stop OS making up any losses they incur giving away this data by upping the costs on their other products - namely mastermap, increasing costs to local authorities who already provide a large proportion of OS income. And unless the derived data issue goes away then I'm very sceptical about the cost savings they talk about, or any talk of 'open' or 'free' access to data. (Completely ignoring the fact that any product that is paid for by the taxpayer and then resold for the taxpayer to buy again can never be 'free')
In reply to ChrisBrooke:
Running memory map on a cheap car sat nav is easy enough to do. The 1:25K maps are easy enough to find if you look around
Running memory map on a cheap car sat nav is easy enough to do. The 1:25K maps are easy enough to find if you look around
In reply to UKC News:
A slight aside from the main topic at hand, but I think this could be a major plus for climbers in general:
'Get rid of the OS altogether and make a ‘climbing map of Britain’ (maybe ask UKC nicely for there crag coordinates)'
A GPS overlay for crags in the UK would be a great thing to be offered by UKC/Rockfax or a third party. The data is already collected, it simply needs to be converted into the necessary formats.
J
A slight aside from the main topic at hand, but I think this could be a major plus for climbers in general:
'Get rid of the OS altogether and make a ‘climbing map of Britain’ (maybe ask UKC nicely for there crag coordinates)'
A GPS overlay for crags in the UK would be a great thing to be offered by UKC/Rockfax or a third party. The data is already collected, it simply needs to be converted into the necessary formats.
J
In reply to UKC News: Why is this headlined as a government U-turn? Just wondering what the u-turn was from?
In reply to Al Evans: it's not really a u-turn, more a case of os saying one thing earlier in the year and the government saying something else now. The news released on the OS website almost sounds like a different story http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/media/news/2009/nov2009/mappingfu...
I wish I could share your optimism Alan. I totally agree that it would mean better online maps; but just like supermarkets decimating our high streets, file sharing decimating music revenues for musicians, there generally is always a loser: fact of life.
In reply to ebygomm: It was just that it seems a bit of a 'pro-tory' headline.
In reply to Al Evans: is that a dig at Jack? is he a Tory boy?
In reply to UKC News: If Gordon's headline was "Government borrowing increases by an extra billion from 120 to 121 billion, so that it can fund the OS without having to charge for mapping" I might listen a bit closer. As it is - when Gordon opens his mouth, a rat (or several) are bound to jump out. Only those who are visually impaired - or stench impeeded - fail to notice such. Work it out chums, decrease of funding for the OS can only point to a diminished service. Offer me free beer and I'll vote for you Gordon - puke.
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