UKC

The BMC has now replaced the lower-offs and bolts on a small selection of Main Wall routes on a trial project.

The BMC employed a local roped access to re-equip 6 routes including Big Fat Texan on a Corner, Pale Rider, Waves of Mutilation and Megalithic Man with Fixe 'P' bolts and a new type of 'rams head' lower-off unit.

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=50620

In reply to UKC News:

i really like those imediate lower offs that they have used. here in france we have whats called a pigs tail which is the same principle and its so much safer and easier. i don't know why they are not used more in europe.

In reply to DEvans:

I what way is a pig's tail easier and safer then a ram's head?
Genuinely interested


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:
The things at Horseshoe are properly called RAMS HORNS (not heads), the original German is Widderhorner from Widder = ram.
A pigtail (or pig´s tail)is just a bar twisted around more than 360° like the thing kiddies swings are hooked onto.
But climbers use pigtails to describe for what really are ramshorns, as in effectively two pig´s tails back to back so we call them that as well!
Ramshorns or pigtails are much superior and safer than a pig´s tail.
Simple really.
Jim

In reply to Chris Craggs:

i think he was saying rams' heads or pigs' tails are much safer than the usual ring bolt lower offs not that pigs' tails are safer than rams' heads.

In reply to UKC News: Is their an official line on top roping from a rams head? Not that I want to, just curious.

In reply to jimtitt:

Cheers for that - simple(ish) indeed.

Personally I still favour the fixed rings (as used in much of France) for longevity though I can see the attraction of 'clip and go'. Someone will have to replace the rams horns again a few years down the line.


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:


Clink the link at the base of the summary.

These lower-offs are manufactured from top quality stainless steel and the ‘rams head’ can be replaced once it starts to wear. We think they’re great and we would also appreciate your views on them - feedback to either guy@thebmc.co.uk or dan@thebmc.co.uk

If you are top-roping on routes equipped with the new lower-offs, please clip either the bolts or the ‘rams head’ with your own krabs/extenders - its good practice and definitely makes a big contribution towards the lifespan of the lower-off.

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=3420

In reply to Chris Craggs:
I guess every form of lower-off has its advantages and disadvantages and proponents and opponents! That´s why we make 5 different sorts.
While top-roping through lower-offs is universaly seen as a bad thing, in our experience it is widespread even amongst UIGM qualified guides no less and I don´t see this changing! I used to point out to people that the gear was installed for all climbers, not just for the offenders to wear out but naturally nowadays I´m all for it, business is business.

In theory rings spread the wear but they are often badly installed so they don´t hang free when the rope is pulled down so don´t rotate, there are also plenty out there with large welds which stop them rotating. They are strong and the rope can´t come out. On the other hand they don´t have as much metal to wear as a pigtails design and you have to re-thread which seems to be a challenge for some.
They also cannot be removed unless you fit them with a maillon which pushes the price up higher than that of pigtails.

Pigtails have a larger surface and last longer than other systems. They are easy to replace (normally just with a hammer but the ones at Horseshoe are welded to prevent casual theft, for these you need a lump hammer and cold chisel). No re-threading is required which makes them much safer in practice. They should not be placed where the climber can or would climb above them.

Karabiners are expensive but everyone understands how to use them. Back -to-back wiregates are the best system with more metal and mechanical simplicity, conventional screwgates (stainless) only appear to have a life of a few years before they seize up, karabiners also require maillons for replacement pushing the cost even higher.

When I´m asked what to recommend I usually look at the type of route, on multi-pitch it is rings all the way. Easy/moderate graded single pitch sport in popular areas then pigtails or karabiners are the way to go as the biggest two problems are wear and failed te-ties. Hard sport routes just get a bolt (or two if your fussy) as climbers operating at this level are expected to be more competent and hundreds of ascents per year are unlikely.

And of course it´s a matter of budget!

Jim

In reply to jimtitt:

Good answer, well explained.

Cheers for taking the time.


Chris

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: If people cant safely re-thread an anchor how long before someone decks out on one of these.... What has effectively been announced is.

"Come to horseshoe if you arent technically competent to re-thread an anchor, its just like a climbing wall but outside"

In reply to muppetfilter:
You´re a bit confused. Pigtails were in use outdoors at least 50 years before climbing walls existed, maybe you should change your post to something like "Come to a climbing wall if you aren´t technically competent to re-thread an anchor, its just like outside" :~)

In reply to muppetfilter:


You are being a muppet again muppetfilter.

In reply to jimtitt: They were invented in 1916..!! well i never, and with a war on as well. ;0)

In reply to UKC News:

Did extra bolts get added on any of these routes or just a like for like replacement?

Si

In reply to muppetfilter:
I´m really quite suprised you didn´t know that the use of pigtails was discussed prior to 1916. Maybe a quick refresher course on climbing technology in Saxony wouldn´t come amiss
Of course in those pre-karabiner days when you were expected to untie and thread every bolt on a route using something as easy as a pigtail was considered not a "mans" thing so somewhat frowned on, climbing 6b´s wearing a bowler hat and dancing pumps by the way.

In reply to jimtitt:

These are really in use on Saxon sandstone? On the Czech side it's usually a big ring-bolt affair (the newer ones glued-in) and a single one at that.

In reply to muppetfilter:

I interpreted it :

"Come to Horseshoe, it's now got better bolts on some of the routes & new, easy to use lower offs"

In reply to snoop6060:

I personally was hoping that there'd be additional bolts placed but it was agreed prior that it would be like for like.

In reply to Cragrat Rich: The routes arent E2 or anything to do with the matterhorn so i dont know what you have to add here? Childish games as usual...

Obviously as a low E grade onsight only punter you dont sportclimb so wont have seen some of the horrifically dangerous shenanigans that go on at this non low E grade onsight crag I would kindly thank you to restrict your amusing reparte to subjects covering low E grade punter onsight climbing and the Matterhorn.

In reply to UKC News:

Young At Heart at Coastguard South (Portland) has similar anchors - 'Vulcan' ones.

Not sure if Pete or someone else made them or whether they're mass-produced.

Disconcerting at first but simple to use.

In reply to muppetfilter:

What you need is a good supply of saucers and a good supply of milk young man!

In reply to Tyler:

Actually it was agreed that the Land management group would have discretion to place extra bolts if it felt there was good reason to do so

I'd still like to hear whether or not they have !

In reply to Chris the Tall:

I reckon there was certainly call for more bolts!

Its much more fun without them tho.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Mick,

I have a few questions about the new lower offs.

If the idea is to minimise tie-off type accidents, then there seems to be a conflict of advice.

If the leader threads the new lower offs without gear, then all re-tying issues are solved.

If you use a pair of draws at the anchor then someone has to strip them. This could then leave an inexperienced second, stripping all the draws off the route, and then having to re-thread the lower off, by either using a cows tail, removing the draws, and threading, or by threading with the draws in place, causing a bit of a snakes nest. If all the draws are stripped, fluffing it could be a deck.

Would it not be better that the lower off is threaded by the leader, thereby eliminating anything further than a fall off the last bolt, abd accepting that the lower-offs will have a limited life of x years?

I think that the owner / caretaker of the crag should advise on what they feel is acceptable practice, as you have suggested one thing, and has been slightly contradicted by the manufacturer.

In reply to UKC News:
OK so why was this done and at what cost? The existing lower offs appeared to be perfectly adequate enabling a doubled rope to be threaded enabling lower off without untying.

In reply to UKC News:

I think I see a potential problem with the new type lower offs; what if when setting up a top rope, someone clips a krab into the loop of "Ram's Head" that is through the chains & is closed with what I guess is the weld that prevents theft? How strong would this be? Further nightmare scenario - what if they do the same when they come across an unwelded one.

I'm probably being a bit paranoid but as an earlier poster said "you should see some of the shenanigans that go on."

In reply to NorthernRock:
Not quite sure what I´ve slightly contradicted but there we are.

Lower-offs are exactly what the words mean. They are to lower off the climb.
They are NOT top-rope points.
IF and it´s a big IF you insist on top-roping through the fixed gear then one or more of the next lower bolts should have quickdraws in place as a back-up. This is normal good practice anyway.
The lower-offs at Horseshoe have two large-eyed bolts and twin chains so use anywhere on these for normal toproping with quickdraws or karabiners back to back.
You can clip draws directly into the pigtails but this is unescessary in this case. In some areas the (single) bolt is too small to accept additional karabiners and so there is no alternative, as is the case for example on my local crag.
I was asked to comment on the safety of this and in my opinion it is acceptable, not particularly desirable! If you do this then advisable to use an inverted HMS karabiner as the loading surface is rather wide for a modern kararabiner. A drawback with this is that the rope is wrongly aligned and will rub on the rock so all in all a poor idea.
There is no difficulty in threading the rope and then removing the karabiners.
In sport climbing it is usual to strip the draws on the way down unless the steepness of the route makes this inconvenient.

For Hat Dude.
I would expect the top welded loop to hold about 15kN but I have not tested this, in an unwelded one it will hold 7.5kN or more.

Jim

There is no such thing as idiot proof, and climbing is a dangerous sport, but these lower offs clearly reduce the risk by allowing a climber to lower off without untying and threading.

The levels of negativity in some of the comments on this thread are amazing

In reply to jimtitt:

Thanks for prompt reply

My worry, particularly on an unwelded one, is that the cross section of many modern krabs would act like a wedge into the vee formed in the bottom of the loop.

In reply to Hat Dude:
Of course and the karabiner will end up clipped into one side of pigtails which will hold more than ca 7.5kN.
If he misses the metal altogether then it was a good job he followed my tip of always having the next lower bolts clipped as well!

In reply to jimtitt:

Jim, you havent contradicted yourself.

Mick suggested that we use draws at the top, rather than threading the belay direct.

I understood that the use of these type of lower offs was to negate the use of any further gear, whereas Mick seems to be suggesting they to be used the same way as twin bolts, and by using our own draws, we will prolong the life of the lower off, which I fully follow, but why install these type of lower offs, if they are not to be properly threaded?

If it is easy to thread the pigtail with draws in place, then it solves the untying issue, but not the simplicity issue (hope that makes sense)

They will be used as top rope points, if a second follows, as not all climbers like to lead.

In reply to NorthernRock:

I hope that you put lower offs for Sumo and Texan, as the last time, I could only find a lower off for Texan, and had to use the same one for Sumo, which left a slight swing. Or maybe I am just crap at route finding..... Cant even follow a bolt ladder, bloody trad climbers.....

In reply to NorthernRock:
To save Mick any hassle it should be clear he quoted the BMC on this.
The full text is:-
`If you are top-roping on routes equipped with the new lower-offs, please clip either the bolts or the ‘rams head’ with your own krabs/extenders - its good practice and definitely makes a big contribution towards the lifespan of the lower-off.´

As I stated above and the BMC have said, these are lower-offs NOT toproping points.
Top-roping points are YOUR karabiners.

In reply to jimtitt:

Interesting this.

I know the point of using your own krabs is to pro-long the life of the ram's horns when toproping but surely using two draws on something which is "open" cannot be good practice?

Enty

In reply to NorthernRock: Take a sling and a karabiner if you have people in your group who want to to rope it. If they cannot dismantle it then you go up last and do it.

In reply to Enty:


You;re right, but although the ram's horns may be open the bolts/chain they are attached to is closed. Clip to that.

In reply to jimtitt:

Sorry to keep banging on about this but there is a scenario where it could be clipped without going into any side of the pigtails.
Unlikely I know but then people have been seen belaying off gear loops!

Bet you're glad you got involved in this whole thing aren't you.

In reply to katonka:

Of course - but that's not obvious in the BMC instructions.

"If you are top-roping on routes equipped with the new lower-offs, please clip either the bolts or the ‘rams head’ with your own krabs/extenders - its good practice"

Enty

In reply to Hat Dude:
So let me get this straight

You are suggesting that someone who knows enough not to top-rope on these lower offs would also be daft enough to place a krab through the centre of the lower off, so that it is dependent upon the welded section

Here is the lower off : http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=3419

Bear in mind it isn't dangerous to top rope on them - merely that doing so intensively will simply reduce the lifespan of the item - so the request is probably aimed at group leaders.

In reply to jimtitt:

sorry, must have missed the "top roping".

Makes sense now!

In reply to UKC News:
This thread started out as a informative thread telling people that these new lower off exist and then turned in to a thread on how to stop even the stupidest novice from ever possibly being able to hurt themselves.
Climbers really need to take responsibility for themselves. The whole thing about putting your own gear in for top roping and only using the ram head for lowering off is common sense surely. If you can't work this out just don't go climbing.

In reply to Enty:

Well I sort of understand the confusion a bit!
Normally you are recommended to clip your own draws/krabs into the bolts or the chains.
However in the re-write for the SPA handbook the question of was it safe to clip directly into the ramshorns came up, this is because in some places there is nowhere else to clip 2 krabs as there is only 1 bolt and it is too small. As my local area is exactly like this I know the problem well, if you put a tape in the bolt then someone elses rope may run over it on a shared lower-off for example so standard practice is one krab in the bolt if possible or two in the ramshorns.
Since I´ve pull tested a fair few of these things I was quite happy to say that technically there is no problem, with the exception that the karabiners are a bit unfairly loaded, since there are two sharing only top roping loads they will certainly be strong enough.
Normal practice in our area is however to fit a HMS in the ramshorns and a draw into the bolt behind the ramshorn, these are joined with another HMS to align the rope correctly.
This way other users can also still use the lower-off without complaining about bloody top-ropers!

So in brief, yes you can clip straight in but it´s better not to have to!

Jim