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Just wanted to get some opinions on which are the best places in scotland to climb when very bad avo conditions are present. The locals must have some ideas where to climb when things are a bit shifty in the hills? I'm heading up to scotland on monday for a few days and was wondering where would be worth considering given the current conditions. I'd like to avoid indoor walls too if possible!
Obviously, there must be a level of personal responsibilty in these sort of things and I understand that any advice is subjective to the conditions on the day.
Obviously, there must be a level of personal responsibilty in these sort of things and I understand that any advice is subjective to the conditions on the day.
I've been following the SAIS reports for some time now. I was thinking more along the interpretive lines of 'such and such rarely has a dodgy approach' Or 'climbing should still be fine on the cobbler' etc.
In reply to stevebarratt:
I think it depends entirely on the prevailing conditions. For example, under some conditions the West Face of Aonach Dubh is quite avalanche-safe, whereas under other conditions it might be the worst face in the glen ... impossible to give a general case, really!
I learned the hard way last year that the best strategy if you have a day off in bad avalanche conditions is to stay at home.
I think it depends entirely on the prevailing conditions. For example, under some conditions the West Face of Aonach Dubh is quite avalanche-safe, whereas under other conditions it might be the worst face in the glen ... impossible to give a general case, really!
I learned the hard way last year that the best strategy if you have a day off in bad avalanche conditions is to stay at home.
In reply to stevebarratt:
It depends on the local conditions. You really have to make a judgement call yourself, helped by the great information that is now available.
It is often just certain aspects that have high risks - for example, those that have been on the lee side of the hill from wherever the wind was coming from (NOT necessarily the same as where it's coming from when you're there).
Remember that there can be areas with variable aspects on the same side of a hill, such as gully or bowl edges, so it's not as simple as just avoiding one side of the hill.
It's not unusual for one side of a hill / ridge to be drowned in snow and covered in windslab while the other is scoured bare or down to a solid, icy layer.
There aren't places that are OK, though. It depends what has been happening before you go; pretty much anywhere in the hills can be fairly safe or very dangerous.
It depends on the local conditions. You really have to make a judgement call yourself, helped by the great information that is now available.
It is often just certain aspects that have high risks - for example, those that have been on the lee side of the hill from wherever the wind was coming from (NOT necessarily the same as where it's coming from when you're there).
Remember that there can be areas with variable aspects on the same side of a hill, such as gully or bowl edges, so it's not as simple as just avoiding one side of the hill.
It's not unusual for one side of a hill / ridge to be drowned in snow and covered in windslab while the other is scoured bare or down to a solid, icy layer.
There aren't places that are OK, though. It depends what has been happening before you go; pretty much anywhere in the hills can be fairly safe or very dangerous.
In reply to Only a hill:
Spot on mate.
One of those questions that can't fully be answered. You have to decide on the day really once all the variables are known. It part of a winter climbers arsenal thats prob the most vital to gain, experience.
Spot on mate.
One of those questions that can't fully be answered. You have to decide on the day really once all the variables are known. It part of a winter climbers arsenal thats prob the most vital to gain, experience.
In reply to stevebarratt:
Buttress routes generally are going to be the safest routes, but many will have tricky approaches and sections at the top. These are sometimes indicated in guidebooks and topos, sometimes with alternative options but not always.
The SAIS forecasts are just forecasts- but will indicate which slope aspects are the most dangerous. Bear in mind that virtually every slope aspect can be present in the top of a narrow gully.
You will also need to sit down with a map and do some careful planning for your approach and exit routes. Summer footpaths can be death traps. Right now all the mountains up here are pretty dodgy. Even here on Arran where avalanches are rarely recorded careful route choice is required right now. I observed the much discussed surface hoar forming on Cir Mhor on Christmas day. Have not been out since but tomorrow I will stick to wind scoured N/E slopes/ridges and stay off the snow completely.
It is also important to be able to constantly reassess conditions where you are- and keep an eye on the weather.
Avalanches don't respect experience, but if you are unfamiliar with judging the terrain underfoot, assessing the snow, looking for cracks, layers and scary whumping sounds I would say stay at home right now.
Buttress routes generally are going to be the safest routes, but many will have tricky approaches and sections at the top. These are sometimes indicated in guidebooks and topos, sometimes with alternative options but not always.
The SAIS forecasts are just forecasts- but will indicate which slope aspects are the most dangerous. Bear in mind that virtually every slope aspect can be present in the top of a narrow gully.
You will also need to sit down with a map and do some careful planning for your approach and exit routes. Summer footpaths can be death traps. Right now all the mountains up here are pretty dodgy. Even here on Arran where avalanches are rarely recorded careful route choice is required right now. I observed the much discussed surface hoar forming on Cir Mhor on Christmas day. Have not been out since but tomorrow I will stick to wind scoured N/E slopes/ridges and stay off the snow completely.
It is also important to be able to constantly reassess conditions where you are- and keep an eye on the weather.
Avalanches don't respect experience, but if you are unfamiliar with judging the terrain underfoot, assessing the snow, looking for cracks, layers and scary whumping sounds I would say stay at home right now.
In reply to The Gibbon:
I'm always wary about buttress routes now as well, as I've been hit by a substantial slide while climbing on a buttress before now! Didn't see that coming. All goes to show that even if you think you know how to predict conditions, something can still take you by surprise.
As you say, there are often some relatively safe places to climb even in the worst conditions, but it takes judgement and skill to select a venue with accuracy. The penalty for getting it wrong could potentially be massive. I've been winter climbing for four years now and I'm very aware I don't have the necessary experience to be 100% confident I have chosen an avalanche-safe route in these conditions, therefore if I am in doubt I will go home.
I'm always wary about buttress routes now as well, as I've been hit by a substantial slide while climbing on a buttress before now! Didn't see that coming. All goes to show that even if you think you know how to predict conditions, something can still take you by surprise.
As you say, there are often some relatively safe places to climb even in the worst conditions, but it takes judgement and skill to select a venue with accuracy. The penalty for getting it wrong could potentially be massive. I've been winter climbing for four years now and I'm very aware I don't have the necessary experience to be 100% confident I have chosen an avalanche-safe route in these conditions, therefore if I am in doubt I will go home.
In reply to Only a hill:
Don't think anyone can ever be 100% confident about that! It's possibly the scariest thing about winter climbing...
> very aware I don't have the necessary experience to be 100% confident I have chosen an avalanche-safe route in these conditions
Don't think anyone can ever be 100% confident about that! It's possibly the scariest thing about winter climbing...
In reply to stevebarratt: might be worth spending the day with a guide or on a course to learn the fundamentals of avalanche assesment, as you question suggests you could benefit, like us all, with some training/refresher. look up glenmore lodge as a starter.
In reply to Only a hill:
Yikes! I hope my post didn't indicate that buttress routes are safe!!
I was more hoping to get across that some places may be safer than others, but that you need to be constantly assessing conds. Turn around if you are not happy.
I don't think anyone would pick a route or hill right now and say "go here".
Yikes! I hope my post didn't indicate that buttress routes are safe!!
I was more hoping to get across that some places may be safer than others, but that you need to be constantly assessing conds. Turn around if you are not happy.
I don't think anyone would pick a route or hill right now and say "go here".
In reply to The Gibbon:
Don't worry, I think your meaning got through clearly enough. =) I just thought I would add my own experience on a slight tangent to your post, illustrating your point further that you have to use your own judgement on the day rather than deciding what to do before you go out.
> Yikes! I hope my post didn't indicate that buttress routes are safe!!
> I was more hoping to get across that some places may be safer than others, but that you need to be constantly assessing conds.
> I was more hoping to get across that some places may be safer than others, but that you need to be constantly assessing conds.
Don't worry, I think your meaning got through clearly enough. =) I just thought I would add my own experience on a slight tangent to your post, illustrating your point further that you have to use your own judgement on the day rather than deciding what to do before you go out.
In reply to stevebarratt:
By the way- one thing that you do need to bear in mind, is that the "normal" prevailing winds here are westerly, and that the classic areas that are known for avalanche risk reflect that. The winds that have moved all the snow around this week have been N Easterly, although down here on Arran we are getting a a wee westerly again today. Therefore traditionally "safe" areas are not necessarily the best options at the moment.
By the way- one thing that you do need to bear in mind, is that the "normal" prevailing winds here are westerly, and that the classic areas that are known for avalanche risk reflect that. The winds that have moved all the snow around this week have been N Easterly, although down here on Arran we are getting a a wee westerly again today. Therefore traditionally "safe" areas are not necessarily the best options at the moment.
In reply to stevebarratt: We have just cancelled our trip north of the border as it is just not worth the risk. In a couple of weeks the conditions will be amazing up there. if at all possible leave it till then. i don't think wading through thigh deep drifts only to find your route is unsafe sounds like much fun.
what ever you do have a happy and safe new year.
J
what ever you do have a happy and safe new year.
J
In reply to stevebarratt:
In addition to the helpful suggestions others have made, there is quite a lot to be learned from books like Bob Barton's "A Chance in a Million?" and this quiz is helpful and fun:
http://www.glenmorelodge.org.uk/avalanche.asp
In addition to the helpful suggestions others have made, there is quite a lot to be learned from books like Bob Barton's "A Chance in a Million?" and this quiz is helpful and fun:
http://www.glenmorelodge.org.uk/avalanche.asp
Right now then. I think I obviously should be more specific, I was definately a bit too vague earlier when I mentioned 'very bad avo conditions'. I was really hoping here to avoid 30+ replies of 'you have to make an independent careful decision on the day' a fact I was already very aware of. What i wanted to do here was shortcut the process off looking through every single crag in every area in the guide, looking at the approach and descents, comparing aspects and altitudes with the SAIS reports. I was after some genuine suggestions and advice rather than philosophies. I don't want to sound offensive to anyone here, much sage 'general' advice was offered which many may not have heard before.
My new re-phrased my question: If you had 4 days off next week starting monday, and you have a good knowledge of winter climbing venues in scotland, where would you try first, or would you say there is no moderately safe winter climbing in scotland right now?
Note: I said 'try', I am well aware that any given venue may turn out to be unsuitable and make my own decisions based on what I see on the ground and on the map and compass and on the SAIS reports etc.
My new re-phrased my question: If you had 4 days off next week starting monday, and you have a good knowledge of winter climbing venues in scotland, where would you try first, or would you say there is no moderately safe winter climbing in scotland right now?
Note: I said 'try', I am well aware that any given venue may turn out to be unsuitable and make my own decisions based on what I see on the ground and on the map and compass and on the SAIS reports etc.
In reply to stevebarratt: the Mountain Rescue teams would probably say ...the pub ,or home..
In reply to stevebarratt:
If you read posts above you will see that all areas are dodgy. Take your pick.
If you read posts above you will see that all areas are dodgy. Take your pick.
In reply to The Gibbon:
Not to be rude but the sais isn't showing all areas as dodgy, there may be some good ideas/feedback out there. For example: Glencoe, all aspects under 850m - Natural Avalanches very unlikely. Human triggered avalanches not likely.
Would anyone hazard a guess about beinn dorain and bein an dothaidh for example?
Not to be rude but the sais isn't showing all areas as dodgy, there may be some good ideas/feedback out there. For example: Glencoe, all aspects under 850m - Natural Avalanches very unlikely. Human triggered avalanches not likely.
Would anyone hazard a guess about beinn dorain and bein an dothaidh for example?
In reply to andrew sandercock: i'll second that
In reply to stevebarratt:
Given yesterday's events, I would be very cautious indeed about Beinn an Dothaidh.
> (In reply to The Gibbon)
> Not to be rude but the sais isn't showing all areas as dodgy, there may be some good ideas/feedback out there. For example: Glencoe, all aspects under 850m - Natural Avalanches very unlikely. Human triggered avalanches not likely.
>
> Would anyone hazard a guess about beinn dorain and bein an dothaidh for example?
> Not to be rude but the sais isn't showing all areas as dodgy, there may be some good ideas/feedback out there. For example: Glencoe, all aspects under 850m - Natural Avalanches very unlikely. Human triggered avalanches not likely.
>
> Would anyone hazard a guess about beinn dorain and bein an dothaidh for example?
Given yesterday's events, I would be very cautious indeed about Beinn an Dothaidh.
In reply to stevebarratt: In short you want folks to lay there neck on the line for you. Bit of a tall order there mate. There is safe climbing but from today you need to analyse the wind direction, temps and sais forceast to identify where the snow is being blown as it can change from Northerly slopes on day to Southerly slopes the next. Then there is whether it is sunny or moist.
Finally once you know what slopes are most likely to be FAIRLY STABLE then look for shortish approaches to cliffs eg Mess of Pottage but not Fluted ot Fiacall. Then figure out the safest approach eg. if heading over to Loch Avon basin.
With a good freeze thaw then gullies may become good eg No.6 on Aonach Dubh, but with no substantial freeze/thaw then I'll stick my neck out and say go to Glencoe and Southern Highlands and be prepared to go hillwalking if need be. It's anybodies guess at the moment.
Finally once you know what slopes are most likely to be FAIRLY STABLE then look for shortish approaches to cliffs eg Mess of Pottage but not Fluted ot Fiacall. Then figure out the safest approach eg. if heading over to Loch Avon basin.
With a good freeze thaw then gullies may become good eg No.6 on Aonach Dubh, but with no substantial freeze/thaw then I'll stick my neck out and say go to Glencoe and Southern Highlands and be prepared to go hillwalking if need be. It's anybodies guess at the moment.
In reply to stevebarratt:
The safest way is to find a ridge route with an approach and descent entirely on the northern side.
In all districts, north winds have dominated and windslab exists most commonly on southern aspects.
In the light winds, large accumulations have nevertheless built up on northern aspects also, so pick your ground carefully and avoid spending time below large accumulations and funnels.
Typically, I would be looking at things like Fiacail Ridge in the northern Cairngorms and returning by coming back done the ridge. In the west, the Forcan Ridge, again down as well as up (watch the snow conditions on the long traverse below Meall Odhar on the approach path though).
The safest way is to find a ridge route with an approach and descent entirely on the northern side.
In all districts, north winds have dominated and windslab exists most commonly on southern aspects.
In the light winds, large accumulations have nevertheless built up on northern aspects also, so pick your ground carefully and avoid spending time below large accumulations and funnels.
Typically, I would be looking at things like Fiacail Ridge in the northern Cairngorms and returning by coming back done the ridge. In the west, the Forcan Ridge, again down as well as up (watch the snow conditions on the long traverse below Meall Odhar on the approach path though).
In reply to stevebarratt:
Im fairly sure you can abseil into crags like hells lum and the fiaciall buttress, after walking in over safe areas (buttresses/ridges). Not sure how many crags u can do this on, Andy was telling me you can rap from the top of the seam for example, giving u access to routes in the area you and rhodes were at when we were up there. I think theres some good stuff on hells lum, youl have to have a look. This ab in method heavily limits you to short crags, and i guess it helps if youve been to these crags before. Something different for you to think about anyways.
Im fairly sure you can abseil into crags like hells lum and the fiaciall buttress, after walking in over safe areas (buttresses/ridges). Not sure how many crags u can do this on, Andy was telling me you can rap from the top of the seam for example, giving u access to routes in the area you and rhodes were at when we were up there. I think theres some good stuff on hells lum, youl have to have a look. This ab in method heavily limits you to short crags, and i guess it helps if youve been to these crags before. Something different for you to think about anyways.
In reply to stevebarratt:
I have been looking for historical weather observations on the net that would help us to make estimates of avalanche hazards in areas outside of the SAIS locations.
The Met Office has observations by time-slot that are a bit of a pain to use.
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/education/teachers/latest_weather_data_uk_rolli...
However, these do provide data for Glascarnoch which is a good guide for major areas in the northwest.
Wunderground provides historical data by station in a really useful form and here is the page for Wick.
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/EGPC/2009/12/31/WeeklyHistory.h...
Unfortunately there are only a limited number of UK stations on that site.
Does anyone else know of better sources?
I have been looking for historical weather observations on the net that would help us to make estimates of avalanche hazards in areas outside of the SAIS locations.
The Met Office has observations by time-slot that are a bit of a pain to use.
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/education/teachers/latest_weather_data_uk_rolli...
However, these do provide data for Glascarnoch which is a good guide for major areas in the northwest.
Wunderground provides historical data by station in a really useful form and here is the page for Wick.
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/EGPC/2009/12/31/WeeklyHistory.h...
Unfortunately there are only a limited number of UK stations on that site.
Does anyone else know of better sources?
In reply to david morse:
Don't think you really want to do that looking at the current avalanche forecast, convex top slope approach and likely cornice buildup over Hells Lum unless you really know the area...!
> (In reply to stevebarratt)
>
> I think theres some good stuff on hells lum, youl have to have a look. This ab in method heavily limits you to short crags, and i guess it helps if youve been to these crags before. Something different for you to think about anyways.
>
> I think theres some good stuff on hells lum, youl have to have a look. This ab in method heavily limits you to short crags, and i guess it helps if youve been to these crags before. Something different for you to think about anyways.
Don't think you really want to do that looking at the current avalanche forecast, convex top slope approach and likely cornice buildup over Hells Lum unless you really know the area...!
In reply to stevebarratt:
OK so I just drove round Arran with my 'scope and am surprised by how much has been stripped above 500m. Can't work out where the snow has gone but think this is a good thing (the sea probably)! Deep local deposits on SW/W/NW slopes from what I can make out but mostly in sheltered scoops/bowls- so avoidable with a bit of nous. Gullies out as thin and or full of horrible loose powder (we do chockstones well here). No ice. No cornices. Crag aprons look deep and toilsome. Rock ridges on Arran will go and will not have much avalanche risk. However there is no ice visible and are a just a bit esoteric/adventurous- not everyones bag for sure!
There is certainly an avalanche risk here but probably localised.
Is this this answer to your question you were hoping for?
OK so I just drove round Arran with my 'scope and am surprised by how much has been stripped above 500m. Can't work out where the snow has gone but think this is a good thing (the sea probably)! Deep local deposits on SW/W/NW slopes from what I can make out but mostly in sheltered scoops/bowls- so avoidable with a bit of nous. Gullies out as thin and or full of horrible loose powder (we do chockstones well here). No ice. No cornices. Crag aprons look deep and toilsome. Rock ridges on Arran will go and will not have much avalanche risk. However there is no ice visible and are a just a bit esoteric/adventurous- not everyones bag for sure!
There is certainly an avalanche risk here but probably localised.
Is this this answer to your question you were hoping for?
In reply to stevebarratt:
there you go steve mate, conditions in Arran are sick. Meybe you could do some climbing with Gibbon, bet she knows where all the last great problems are. new routes, do it
there you go steve mate, conditions in Arran are sick. Meybe you could do some climbing with Gibbon, bet she knows where all the last great problems are. new routes, do it
In reply to david morse: Like Ron Says, I'd AVOID Hells lum right now, unless you fancy an epic.
In reply to david morse:
Ha! I'm scratching my head right now as it looks thin bare and hard!! :-D
> (In reply to stevebarratt)
>
> there you go steve mate, conditions in Arran are sick. Meybe you could do some climbing with Gibbon, bet she knows where all the last great problems are. new routes, do it
>
> there you go steve mate, conditions in Arran are sick. Meybe you could do some climbing with Gibbon, bet she knows where all the last great problems are. new routes, do it
Ha! I'm scratching my head right now as it looks thin bare and hard!! :-D
In reply to stevebarratt:
Steve, think about dropping the altitude significantly. I was climbing in the NW today, didn't go much above 500m i think. The snow was mostly pretty safe but it was us that made it safe by sticking to safe terain on the approach and descent.
p.s. there is no avalanche forecast for the n.w. so you are on our own.
The roads were better in the west when we got to garve the snow was really heavy ans thick and we only got home an hour go and spent an age trying to park.
james
Steve, think about dropping the altitude significantly. I was climbing in the NW today, didn't go much above 500m i think. The snow was mostly pretty safe but it was us that made it safe by sticking to safe terain on the approach and descent.
p.s. there is no avalanche forecast for the n.w. so you are on our own.
The roads were better in the west when we got to garve the snow was really heavy ans thick and we only got home an hour go and spent an age trying to park.
james
In reply to stevebarratt:
Personally, I find in REALLY bad avalanche conditions the best location is on the sofa with a good book!
Personally, I find in REALLY bad avalanche conditions the best location is on the sofa with a good book!
In reply to stevebarratt: Best locations in bad avalanche conditons?
Practicing snow holing, ice-axe arrest, slope assessment somewhere safe? BMC Alpine Essentials and Winter Essentials has lots of fun things to do on it - my favourite one is the guy expected to look like a pillock sheltering in an orange bivi bag!
Practicing snow holing, ice-axe arrest, slope assessment somewhere safe? BMC Alpine Essentials and Winter Essentials has lots of fun things to do on it - my favourite one is the guy expected to look like a pillock sheltering in an orange bivi bag!
In reply to James Edwards:
Cheers for the helpful feedback. We were thinking along those lines. Do you reckon it'll be necessary to go way north to get it cold enough low down?
Cheers for the helpful feedback. We were thinking along those lines. Do you reckon it'll be necessary to go way north to get it cold enough low down?
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