UKC

Ideally in Scandinavia or somewhere similarly arctic. But what do I need to type or where do I need to look cos all Google and Amazon give me so far are tour operators, the Alps or America!! None of which appeals. Would cross county skiing be a better bet for typing, having never done it I'm not sure how it would compare?? Imagine you go further on skis though!!

Any ideas? Or should I just pick a location and get a map and wing it?

In reply to ligemidio:

Skiing is easier once you learn. Snow shoes are more a work type thing where your not really there for the adventure but have to be there for work and carrying heaps of shit haha

In reply to shauno:

Except for my IML I need to snowshoe so skiing isn't going to help today, thanks though!

In reply to ligemidio: Try mailing Jon I'm fairly sure that he mentioned before that his partner wrote the snowshoeing guide to cham.

In reply to Frank4short:

That's right, Hilary's Cicerone book covers the area around Mont Blanc, but not Scandinavia!

In reply to ligemidio:

There is no real history of snowshoeing in Finland, it's really quite a new thing so if there any "snowshoe routes" they are probably just around the northern ski areas as an alternative day activity for tourist, in the same way tourists companies organise husky sledding etc. Up in Lapland there are lots of marked long distance routes with huts and lean-to camping site, but people ski and if there are tracks they will be skiers' tracks. Skiing is way faster than snowshoeing in my experience.

In Sweden and Norway to my knowledge most people just ski in the northern mountain areas. I have seen people snowshoeing up Norwegian mountains but these poor benighted souls are called "snowboarders" and deserve our concern and pity for not having worked out how much easier it is to ski up and down!

I use snow shoes sometimes in the south of Finland just to get to icefalls, as a 'sport' in its own right it strikes me as a bit boring. It's just walking after all, and if you were anywhere hilly I'd want skis just so the downhills are fun.

In reply to TobyA:

Just a little snippet from the 'History of Snowshoeing' section from Hilary's Cicerone book, for you Toby:

'... certainly the first people in Northern Europe to use (...) such as the Siberians, Lapps and Finns. Proof exists from as far back as 2500BC... '

Information from the Fonds Musée Dauphinois.

In reply to TobyA:

Yeh I know on my training everyone was drooling about skiing pointing out tracks up mountains and generally talking about some amazing route or another. Unfortunately even if I could ski I'd still need my days in snowshoeing!! Want to use it as an opportunity to see some nice scenery in a completely different area to where I've been before, it is just winter walking really only without the steep hills.

So I could get info on suitable cross country ski routes, adjust some distances perhaps, and just stay out of the tracks?

Oh yeh and seeing Aurora Borealis again would be fairly awesome.

In reply to jon:

Yup that's what I thought!! Has she explored other areas too though in her snowshoeing experience?

In reply to ligemidio:

On snow shoes, just the alps. It makes up the bulk of her work in the winter - so no time to go much further afield. She does get as far as Zinal/Leukerbad to the east and Briançon to the south. The book covers the Aosta valley and its side valleys, western and central Valais and the area around Les Contamines/Beaufort/Chamonix/Vallorcine on the French side.

In reply to jon:

I think I'll have a look at her book nearer the assessment I believe its the Valais we're going, just kinda fancy a bit of wilderness oop north for now! Cheers

In reply to ligemidio:

And the thing that's really got me is "rolling Nordic terrain" in our remit... that is pretty much Scandinavia!

In reply to ligemidio:

Yeah, do they still go to the Pyrenees to find it?

In reply to jon:

Colletts I believe go to the Pyrenees, although saying that I'm not sure about snowshoeing. They do it in the Dolomites though!

In reply to ligemidio:

No, I meant BEML...

In reply to ligemidio:

We did a bit of snowshoeing in the Rondane area in Norway - it was definitely rolling nordic terrain (a bit like the Cairngorms, but a wee bit higher). We also combined XC skiing and snowshoeing, primarily to get over terrain our piss-poor technique and loipe skis couldn't handle onto the rolling bit. Also meant that we could ski on the track to the bottom of steeper terrain without getting shouted at by Norwegians for post-holing their nicely groomed tracks.

There's be loads of potential for hut to hut trips too, though it might be a exercise in hard labour as they're normally skiing distances apart. And the Norwegians would certainly view you as insane.

In reply to ligemidio: One of the most popular multiday walks in Finland is the Karhun Kierros - the Bear's Ring. I wouldn't be surprised if that got snowshoed - might be worth goggling a bit to see if anything pops up.

In reply to ligemidio: What is this qualification? As a total outsider is sounds really weird that they would suggest snow shoeing in Nordic terrain when all the Nordic-types just ski....

In reply to jon:

BAIML? I guess that used to be BEML, I thought you meant "they" as a general provider thing.

Dunno all I know is PyB take us to the French Alps and companies do offer said sport in some very strange "rolling nordic" terrain.

In reply to TobyA:

Basically they don't want you to go get avalanched so the remit is ground where you don't have to cross avalanche terrain. Snowshoeing is big in the right kinda bimbly people who just want to go for a nice walk, plus its great for access to sports: we had a group of blind people at our auberge last week (one blind to one partial sight to one helper) having a wonderful time.

It's the International Mountain Leader Award! International trekking i.e. no climbing or glaciers or avalanches or you would actually have to be a Guide!

In reply to TobyA:

Quite fancy doing "the bears ring"

Hang on, does that mean there are bears? Am I going to get eaten?!

In reply to ligemidio:

That doesn't make sense...

Doesn't seem that they've moved on since Hilary ran their first three courses for them. The thing about being an Accompagnateur/International Mountain Leader is that snowshoeing is part of the winter remit. And snowshoes can get you into exactly the same terrain as ski touring. There is no restriction for Accompagnateurs re the terrain (rolling Nordic with no risk of avalanche) on where they can go on in France, except glaciers, of course. Avalanches are one of the hazards. So why train/assess folks away from that terrain, then give them a licence to go into that terrain.

One of the reasons Hilary no longer runs the courses is that she was adamant that the course should include an element of assessment (it didn't at the time) as she thought some of the course members were just too weak to be in charge of groups in the alpine winter environment. The Guide who ran two of the days, doing avalanche awareness and snow science, who holds a Canadian award in just that, and who has been based out here for 30 years agreed 100% with her. This was not well received...

One woman got lost on her way from the UK to Chamonix and got stuck in Albertville for two days, incapable of working out how to get to Chamonix, for christ's sake. Would you really want someone like that taking you out in the Alps!!!? On the other hand, I suppose she was in no danger of being avalanched.

In reply to jon: The description sounds very odd as well - rolling Nordic terrain can have avalanches of course although in S. Finland its not something you need to worry about.

ligemidio - the bears are asleep in winter I guess! You're very lucky if you even see their tracks. A jogger got killed by a bear about 6 years ago in E. Finland, but that was the first record death in well over a century IIRC.

In reply to TobyA:


There was me thinking they were called british climbers.

In reply to jon:
Particularly as a syllabus says:

The IML should have understanding of snow and avalanche conditions in order to lead groups safely on the appropriate terrain as defined ......

In reply to ligemidio: Remember that if you do actually end up going to scandinavia & doing one of these multi day xc ski routes by snow show it's consider the height of bad manners to walk on the ski tracks. Actually scratch that it's pretty much considered a travesty & you'll only get abused for the privilege if you do.

In reply to George Ormerod & Jon:

Yes yes yes we did spend a lot of time assessing avalanche danger for example on opposing slopes and walking around areas that could have avalanche hazard nearby, point is we're not supposed to be actually walking on those slopes nor going anywhere the avalanche hazard!! It's about assessment and avoidance and walking on relatively easy terrain.

Or I've missed the point entirely.

In reply to Frank4short:

Yup understood... wouldn't dream of it!

In reply to ligemidio:


No that makes more sense. Earlier it seemed that you were saying that the you wouldn't get that hazard in rolling nordic terrain, which of course you do, and as you say you have to assess and manage the risk.

In reply to ligemidio:

If you're walking on completely safe slopes where no risk is possible, how can you assess the slope for avalanche risk? Is this on your own, with people, do you have to log days having done a training course? Don't think you've missed the point necessarily but I'm beginning to think I have!

In reply to ligemidio:

I notivced the AdventureCompany run snow-shoeing trips to the Tatras.

Worth a go? Probs a lot cheaper than Scandanavia!

In reply to jon:

Cos walking ON the slopes means you could cause the avalanche, whereas walking next to them on otherwise "nordic" (less than 30 degree type slopes) means you still have to assess the risk of those slopes avalanching onto you. So if there is high avalanche risk on certain aspects or heights you would want to avoid that whole area and walk somewhere the slopes aren't likely to dump down on you.

You assess far off slopes by weather and predictions. You cannot reliably predict if a slope is going to avalanche just because you do a few tests so it's all about when it last snowed, how windy it was, whether the slope got any sun and how much and did it form a crust... and if all that added together means they're going to avalanche on you! Alternatively interpreting avalanche forecasts if you haven't been in the area long enough to form your own picture of the snowpack.

Sorry if any of that is teaching you to suck eggs or whatnot I'm not sure I'm interpreting your questions correctly...

In reply to Sam_in_Leeds:

Worth a look cheers, although I am planning on camping snowholeing and general self sufficiency so hopefully not too much expenditure (certainly no beer!)

In reply to ligemidio:

Did your research happen to turn up whether Hannibal used snowshoes? You could start a pretty big avalanche with an elephant!

In reply to ligemidio: I have some snow shoes that you are welcome to Borrow if you are going on a trip, if you get yourself to leicester to pick them up...

some of the walkins in the vallouise area require snowshoes

In reply to Ian Parsons:

Livy did not state that he was wearing snowshoes, although they did create elephant floatation devices when crossing the Rhone which would have been pretty awesome!!

In reply to Iain McKenzie:

That's kind thank you, I do already have a pair though!

In reply to ligemidio:

which would have been pretty awesome!!

"oarsome", surely?

And I'm sure that, in the right circumstances, an elephant IS a floatation device!

In reply to ligemidio:

You could always look on the BAIML site www.baiml.org and search for IMLs in the Association to contact for their guidance - I'm sure that they would all support an Aspirant member.

The search facility for snowshoeing shows 6 IMLs work in Sweden, 22 IMLs in Norway & 2 IMLs in Finland.

As a member of BAIML you could post your question directly on the closed BAIML forum or on the Closed Facebook page. Equally, as a member of the MLTA, you could post direct to the IML forum. I'm certain that you would receive the answers you are looking for.

Best wishes

Jan

In reply to jon:


BAEML and MLTUK, as they were then, recognised the need for a review of the Award's training and assessment - as you correctly state, there was no assessment of the candidate's competence in the alpine winter environment in the EML.

The new-style IML includes summer training and assessment, and winter training and assessment.

This leaves a number of IMLs who completed the old-style assessment which did not include a winter assessment. The snowshoe courses that you refer to were the CPD that was available to members who wished to lead others snowshoeing. The last snowshoe course of of this type that BAIML organised was January 2009 and took place under the guidance of Mike Cooper and Alisdair Cain at Le Grand Bornand in the French Aravis.

Individual companies now offer IML holders the opportunity to undertake snowshoe training - for example, Kingsley at Icicle/Fat Marmot - because IMLs who completed the old scheme cannot undertake the winter training and assessment on the new scheme.

So, the pathway for holders of the old-style IML who wish to deliver snowshoeing is to undertake training and develop personal competence. There isn't an element of assessment - unfortunately - in this pathway but I can't think of an IML who, wishing to operate safely and competently, would not ask *that* question directly of any trainer:- In your professional view, am I safe to operate as a snowshoe leader? The most recent development that I am aware of, concerning operating as a snowshoeing leader, is that of an Avalanche Awareness Course with Certification based on terrain appropriate to snowshoes. This should go a long way to resolving the concerns raised above.

There is still the requirement to maintain relevant experience of the activity - irrespective of whichever IML assessment was undertaken - and IMLs have undertaken further CPD courses in snowshoeing, for example at the 2008 AGM in Les Contamines.


As for developments within BAEML and now BAIML, there have been many since I joined in 2003. Primarily, there is the recognition of the importance of CPD and professionalism amongst IML holders. The former was introduced as a mandatory requirement of holding a UIMLA carnet, the latter through the focus of AGM CPD, the post of the professional officer, the BAIML journal 'The Leader' and the use of the closed forum on the BAIML website, amongst other things.

I enjoyed Hillary's book - read following a review and response in 'The Leader' - and look forward to reading future editions covering the wider Alps!

Best wishes

Jan

In reply to Dee:

Thanks, very comprehensive reply. And good to see that the importance of real winter and training AND assessment is taken more seriously now. Interestingly, it was Hilary and Mike who actually pushed to get equivalence with the French, (out of frustration) much to the annoyance of the then MLTB boss who told them in no uncertain terms not to as. Luckily they ignored him!

As I remember, the person who wrote the review in The Leader got completely the wrong end of the stick and questioned why Hilary included glaciated walks such as Midi - Helbronner, or indeed the Bishorn, Pigne etc, as it was outside a Mountain leaders remit - never once stopping to think that the book was written for the general public and not solely for IMLs! Also querying some of Hilary's timings on the basis that his/her eight year old child couldn't manage them! Is that the response you are referring to?

In reply to jon: Yes, it was *that* review and Hillary's response to it

In reply to Dee:

Hmmm, some people can't get out of 'instructor' mode, can they!

In reply to jon: Richard is currently in Haiti
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/hai...

In reply to Dee:

Excellent. He has my admiration.

In reply to ligemidio:

I stumbled upon your post with interest; if the replies from TobyA regarding Finland captured your imagination then I hope the following will be useful:
The Karhunkierros (Bears Trail) is a 75km route through the Oulanka National park, starting a few km south of the Arctic Circle at Hautajarvi and finishing at Ruka. It follows the river Oulanka for much of its course through very old and beautiful forest. When the river reaches the Russian border the route cuts back south west.
Useful map: Genimap ‘ RUKATUNTURI OULANKA’ 1:40 000 – ISBN 951-593-728-0
Useful websites:
www.ruka.fi
www.fmi.fi
www.luontoon.fi (Oulanka National Park.)
http://www.luontoon.fi/page.asp?Section=7496#kkbussi
www.panparks.org/network/ourparks/oulanka

Various types of shelter exist along the route, from log cabins to the traditional lean to structures. They are all stocked with fire wood (Russian!) and the means to cut it and burn it, whether open fire pits or stoves. Locals on the route often carry a small sharp axe in preference to using that provided and a proper knife for shaving kindling. There is a particular etiquette around using these places (I will look for the ‘rules’) based on busy summer use. In winter with very little use probably the most important thing to remember (apart from not to set fire to the shelter, which has happened) is to replenish the stock of smaller pieces of fire wood, ie what you use you replace from the stock of bigger logs. In very cold temperatures it is important to be able to make a fire quickly.
The river valley often experiences temperature inversions, so as cold as the FMI says it will be in Ruka or Kuusamo it will generally be colder in this area. I have skied around here in -32c, it can get lower and again at night.
The trail is marked with tags / paint splashes on trees, generally visible above even deep snow cover. If there is no track they can actually be difficult to follow.
From mid February the route from Juuma to Ruka is groomed for classic cross country skiing, so either walk off piste or be alert and try not trash the grooves. From the same time there is often a snow mobile track from the Kuitakongas visitor centre to Juuma. These sort of tracks often deviate from the true route to avoid dead fall, narrows etc. Around Ruka all the tracks see a lot of use, east of the Kuumpuvaara they are much less traveled.
The Kuitakongas visitor centre has a café, which from last winter stayed open every day and served hot food. I think this is still the case. People commonly snow shoe from here but normally for day trips.
The Bears wake up in Spring. I have skied over fresh bear tracks close to Liikasenvaara in early April, which nudged my heart rate up a little. They sometimes cross the border as do wolves, although I don’t think wolves are really known in this area.
The nearest airport is Kuusamo, with some direct charter flights from the UK for the ski companies (Inghams) otherwise fly to Helsinki for a connecting internal flight. Ruka is a mini Alpine (down hill) ski resort, great for beginners. The cross country skiing is fantastic and if that leaves you cold there are a couple of established dog outfits. I can recommend http://www.erasusi.com/en/ - a great team, they love their dogs. A couple of hours hurtling across frozen lakes and through forests learning to sled is mind blowing or take a couple of days out to follow the border north with your own team.
The Finnish wilderness is definitely worth a trip with snow shoes, skis or dogs.
Anyway, if it’s your thing, have fun. I am over there in a week so if you have questions please ask. If I don’t know I could probably find out.

V

In reply to ligemidio:

Not sure I understand exactly what you are looking for.

Snowshoeing has become wildly popular over the last five years in the eastern Italian Alps and I presume over the whole of the Alps. There are countless books available showing snowshoeing routes - typically just summer walking routes with the odd variation.
You can snowshoe almost anywhere you can walk and in almost any conditions. Beware of avalanches.