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Not a thread for discussing the rights or wrongs of this info-tactic. A thread to give prospective sport grades to trad routes all over the place
To get the ball rolling;
High Tor- supersonic E5 6a/7a
Flaky wall E4 6a/6c
Tales E5 6a/6c+/7a
Chee Tor- Mortlocks Arete E4 6a/7a
Midsummer's E5 6a/7a+
Stoney- Bitterfingers E4 6a/7a
Wee Doris E4 5c/6c/+
Oliver E4 6a/7a
Millionaires Touch E4 6b/7a
To get the ball rolling;
High Tor- supersonic E5 6a/7a
Flaky wall E4 6a/6c
Tales E5 6a/6c+/7a
Chee Tor- Mortlocks Arete E4 6a/7a
Midsummer's E5 6a/7a+
Stoney- Bitterfingers E4 6a/7a
Wee Doris E4 5c/6c/+
Oliver E4 6a/7a
Millionaires Touch E4 6b/7a
In reply to Alex Mason:
Bloody hell it's only been a week.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=397988
Enty
Bloody hell it's only been a week.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=397988
Enty
In reply to Alex Mason:
So far you've given 7a to E4 6a, E4 6b and E5 6a - I wonder which system is more descriptive?
So far you've given 7a to E4 6a, E4 6b and E5 6a - I wonder which system is more descriptive?
In reply to Enty: That sparked this.
In reply to Alex Mason: ....and from small sparks mighty explosions do grow...
In reply to Bulls Crack: this has been done to death, why cant people just accept that there are stacks of very decent / experienced climbers who do sport and trad and want to see sport grades as a compliment grade for trad routes. surely that fact means that the interest in sport grades for trad must have value. why does the CC's (of all institutions) recent Pass guide give sport grades for E6 and above if this practice is so pointless?
In reply to Alex Mason: loads more here:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=315050&v=1#x4654534
it would be useful if we could come up with some sort of unofficial list, perhaps wiki style, maybe through UKC?
i guess consensus might be hard but you could always have a poll for each route i.e. you can vote for 6c / 6c+ / 7a for a given route
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=315050&v=1#x4654534
it would be useful if we could come up with some sort of unofficial list, perhaps wiki style, maybe through UKC?
i guess consensus might be hard but you could always have a poll for each route i.e. you can vote for 6c / 6c+ / 7a for a given route
In reply to ksjs:
I wouldn't say its pointless, its just potentially very misleading. I'd be happy to see sport grades (or bouldering grades)appended to routes where the style of the climbing can be characterised properly by such a grade, but not for routes where the climbing experience is predominantly about THE move, or The exposure or the run out or the nature of the rock (which is a large number of UK trad routes).
> (In reply to Bulls Crack) this has been done to death, why cant people just accept that there are stacks of very decent / experienced climbers who do sport and trad and want to see sport grades as a compliment grade for trad routes. surely that fact means that the interest in sport grades for trad must have value. why does the CC's (of all institutions) recent Pass guide give sport grades for E6 and above if this practice is so pointless?
I wouldn't say its pointless, its just potentially very misleading. I'd be happy to see sport grades (or bouldering grades)appended to routes where the style of the climbing can be characterised properly by such a grade, but not for routes where the climbing experience is predominantly about THE move, or The exposure or the run out or the nature of the rock (which is a large number of UK trad routes).
In reply to GrahamD:
I'd give 3PS 5+, but I have'nt done it for about 20 years so I'm probably in a good position to give it an objective rather than subjective assessment
I'd give 3PS 5+, but I have'nt done it for about 20 years so I'm probably in a good position to give it an objective rather than subjective assessment
In reply to Alex Mason:
It's still an interesting topic - in Australia/New Zealand, the Ewbank system is used - a simple number for the climb. A 17 for example is about HVS. But this applies to both sport and trad, and to my mind it doesn't quite work. You need to differentiator.
It's still an interesting topic - in Australia/New Zealand, the Ewbank system is used - a simple number for the climb. A 17 for example is about HVS. But this applies to both sport and trad, and to my mind it doesn't quite work. You need to differentiator.
In reply to JimR:
I think that is a bit generous, more like 4+ / 5.
I think that is a bit generous, more like 4+ / 5.
In reply to GrahamD:
This was also covered on the other thread, I think it's mostly misleading because in this country we have different grading systems for sport and trad, and so we associate a french grade with a sport route. Hence there is this idea among some that if you describe the difficulty of a trad route in terms of its french grade, you are suggesting that it will be the same difficulty as a sport route of the same grade.
Personally I'd like to see french grades given as an additional piece of information to the Adj and tech grade. Didn't one of the recent lakes guidebooks do this for all routes of E1 and up?
This was also covered on the other thread, I think it's mostly misleading because in this country we have different grading systems for sport and trad, and so we associate a french grade with a sport route. Hence there is this idea among some that if you describe the difficulty of a trad route in terms of its french grade, you are suggesting that it will be the same difficulty as a sport route of the same grade.
Personally I'd like to see french grades given as an additional piece of information to the Adj and tech grade. Didn't one of the recent lakes guidebooks do this for all routes of E1 and up?
In reply to GrahamD: no more misleading than say E5 6a which can cover a whole host of things. both systems have their good and bad points but together they work very well. i just get a bit tired of people who seem cling to the idea that this (sport grades for trad routes) is a non-starter, spewed out by those who havent placed a runner in their lives...
give me some examples where the sport grade wouldnt work in conjunction with a trad grade (or indeed where the sport grade had an accompanying protection grade). for what its i worth i dont think trad is ever graded for exposure, that is a psychological, non-objective factor surely?
give me some examples where the sport grade wouldnt work in conjunction with a trad grade (or indeed where the sport grade had an accompanying protection grade). for what its i worth i dont think trad is ever graded for exposure, that is a psychological, non-objective factor surely?
In reply to ksjs:
for what its i worth i dont think trad is ever graded for exposure, that is a psychological, non-objective factor surely?
Perhaps not specifically but I think that the adjective grade takes it into acount. With regard to objectivity the whole process is subjective surely?
Al
for what its i worth i dont think trad is ever graded for exposure, that is a psychological, non-objective factor surely?
Perhaps not specifically but I think that the adjective grade takes it into acount. With regard to objectivity the whole process is subjective surely?
Al
In reply to ksjs:
Dreadnought at Berry Head springs to mind ...
> for what its i worth i dont think trad is ever graded for exposure, that is a psychological, non-objective factor surely?
Dreadnought at Berry Head springs to mind ...
In reply to tradlad: no, the quality of rock, placements, technical difficulty, physical sustainedness and access are all factors that can be objectively assessed and broadly speaking agreed on i.e. just because someone finds UK 4a nails doesnt actually make it hard (in the spectrum of climbing difficulty).
In reply to ksjs:
Our old favourites 3 pebble slab or sunset slab for a start. Maybe 4 and 3 respectively ? Or any number of gritstone routes for that matter. Not only would the French grade be unhelpful on these routes, it would be a distraction from the more useful information given in the UK grade. What useful information would you possibly get about Dream of White Horses from HVS 4C, 4C, 4C Fr4 ?
Of course there will be routes where useful information could be described by a sport grade or bouldering grade and where it is, add it - the very fact that you have added it gives you information as opposed to adding it arbitarily to all routes.
Just a sport grade and a protection grade is clearly a non starter - it still only has two dimensions like the UK grade and so has equal limitations in certain cases but there is a whole catalogue of many, many thousands of routes using UK grades happily used by thousands of climbers. Who in their right mind would undertake the revision of all those routes and the reeducation of all those climbers for no added benefit.
Whether exposure is explicitly included in the UK grade is a bit of a red herring for this debate. It probably shouldn't be but my experience tells me that the seriousness of the positions (eg Gogarth) does actually influence the grade a little.
> give me some examples where the sport grade wouldnt work in conjunction with a trad grade (or indeed where the sport grade had an accompanying protection grade). for what its i worth i dont think trad is ever graded for exposure, that is a psychological, non-objective factor surely?
Our old favourites 3 pebble slab or sunset slab for a start. Maybe 4 and 3 respectively ? Or any number of gritstone routes for that matter. Not only would the French grade be unhelpful on these routes, it would be a distraction from the more useful information given in the UK grade. What useful information would you possibly get about Dream of White Horses from HVS 4C, 4C, 4C Fr4 ?
Of course there will be routes where useful information could be described by a sport grade or bouldering grade and where it is, add it - the very fact that you have added it gives you information as opposed to adding it arbitarily to all routes.
Just a sport grade and a protection grade is clearly a non starter - it still only has two dimensions like the UK grade and so has equal limitations in certain cases but there is a whole catalogue of many, many thousands of routes using UK grades happily used by thousands of climbers. Who in their right mind would undertake the revision of all those routes and the reeducation of all those climbers for no added benefit.
Whether exposure is explicitly included in the UK grade is a bit of a red herring for this debate. It probably shouldn't be but my experience tells me that the seriousness of the positions (eg Gogarth) does actually influence the grade a little.
In reply to ksjs: Then we will have to agree to disagree. Your definition of objectivity is obviously different to mine. For me any attempt to measure factors such as this is bound to be subjective. Philosophically an objective fact is something that remains true independently of human thought and feelings. Clearly the looseness, exposure, sustainedness (if thats a word) of a route are in the eyes of the beholder.
Al
Al
In reply to GrahamD: i havent read your thread but the mention of 3PS etc just gets my back up. theres more to climbing than grit and these 2 routes. now, i'll revert to your thread...
In reply to GrahamD: theres a difference between seriousness (or access) of position and exposure but thats another thread.
first up i come at this as someone very keen to push their trad grade on single pitch, non-grit routes and i find the UK adjectival grade too broad and without the assurance i get from french grades. also, id probably disqualify E2 or 3 below from the sport / trad grading debate as i think the trad grade can be more reliable at the lower end of the scale. i guess this is because the UK tech grade (also debated ad nauseam on here) seems to be wider further up the scale.
anyway, for me (and countless others i believe) the french grade (even if its Fr 4 on DOWH) does add something. you say that a french grade + protection grade isnt superior to the existing UK adjectival + tech grade but for the reasons many have expressed ie UK tech grade being too wide im not sure this is the case.
im not saying do away with trad grades, they could just be very usefully augmented in many cases with a french grade.
first up i come at this as someone very keen to push their trad grade on single pitch, non-grit routes and i find the UK adjectival grade too broad and without the assurance i get from french grades. also, id probably disqualify E2 or 3 below from the sport / trad grading debate as i think the trad grade can be more reliable at the lower end of the scale. i guess this is because the UK tech grade (also debated ad nauseam on here) seems to be wider further up the scale.
anyway, for me (and countless others i believe) the french grade (even if its Fr 4 on DOWH) does add something. you say that a french grade + protection grade isnt superior to the existing UK adjectival + tech grade but for the reasons many have expressed ie UK tech grade being too wide im not sure this is the case.
im not saying do away with trad grades, they could just be very usefully augmented in many cases with a french grade.
In reply to tradlad: i cant take your post seriously: the logical extension of what youre saying is that routes cant be graded as there can be never consensus. hold on whilst i bin all my guidebooks, i dont think so!
In reply to ksjs: cant we get back to the OP, come on people...
In reply to Bulls Crack:
You know that works both ways? remember Wellington Crack and Fingertip Control, both E4 5c but radically different French grades?
> (In reply to Alex Mason)
>
> So far you've given 7a to E4 6a, E4 6b and E5 6a - I wonder which system is more descriptive?
>
> So far you've given 7a to E4 6a, E4 6b and E5 6a - I wonder which system is more descriptive?
You know that works both ways? remember Wellington Crack and Fingertip Control, both E4 5c but radically different French grades?
In reply to GrahamD:
Where sustainedness is not an major issue, on most easier routes, the sport grade gives no additional information to the UK tech. grade. The two grades are almost exactly convertable. So Dream of White Horses HVS 4c or HVS F4 give the same information; HVS F4 is not less informative.
The advantage of the sport grade is at mostly higher grades where sustainedness means the difficulty of a single move is often the least of your worries. So, sticking with the same crag, Quartz Icicle and Strand have the same UK grade, E2 5b, for very different kinds of climbing. A combination of UK adjectival and sport grade gives more information: Quartz Icicle E2 F5+ and Strand E2 F6a+.
Over all standards of climbing, a combination of UK adjectival + sport grade is rarely less informative than UK adjectival + UK tech. and often more informative.
Where sustainedness is not an major issue, on most easier routes, the sport grade gives no additional information to the UK tech. grade. The two grades are almost exactly convertable. So Dream of White Horses HVS 4c or HVS F4 give the same information; HVS F4 is not less informative.
The advantage of the sport grade is at mostly higher grades where sustainedness means the difficulty of a single move is often the least of your worries. So, sticking with the same crag, Quartz Icicle and Strand have the same UK grade, E2 5b, for very different kinds of climbing. A combination of UK adjectival and sport grade gives more information: Quartz Icicle E2 F5+ and Strand E2 F6a+.
Over all standards of climbing, a combination of UK adjectival + sport grade is rarely less informative than UK adjectival + UK tech. and often more informative.
In reply to Alex Mason: have to ask why ..it would only confuse us older climbers even more,
In reply to ksjs: Yes, I went a bit off topic, apologies. I'll drop out as to be honest I can't see the point of trying to give sports grades to trad climbs so I am unable to make a useful contribution.
Al
Al
In reply to Alex Mason:
Just to get things back on track and probably stir debate, here's some easier ones:
Great Western 6a (HVS)
Demon Wall 5+ (HVS)
Dolphinium 6a (E1)
Fluted Columns 3 (V Diff)
Black Wall Eliminate 6b (E2)
Z Climb 6a (VS)
Birdlime Traverse 6a (HVS)
The Moon 6a+ (E3)
True Moments/Freebird 6a+ (E1)
Sirplum 6a+ (E1)
Silly Arete 6b (E3)
Cream 6b+ (E4)
Grim Wall Direct 6a+ (E1)
Christmas Curry Micha 3 (HS?)
Brothers Direct 5+ (E1)
jk
Just to get things back on track and probably stir debate, here's some easier ones:
Great Western 6a (HVS)
Demon Wall 5+ (HVS)
Dolphinium 6a (E1)
Fluted Columns 3 (V Diff)
Black Wall Eliminate 6b (E2)
Z Climb 6a (VS)
Birdlime Traverse 6a (HVS)
The Moon 6a+ (E3)
True Moments/Freebird 6a+ (E1)
Sirplum 6a+ (E1)
Silly Arete 6b (E3)
Cream 6b+ (E4)
Grim Wall Direct 6a+ (E1)
Christmas Curry Micha 3 (HS?)
Brothers Direct 5+ (E1)
jk
In reply to jkarran:
Plenty of stabs at it here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/Europe/England/
http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/Europe/Wales/
http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/Europe/Scotland/
Example of London Wall
http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/Europe/England/Peak_District/Millstone_E...
I'm not sure how they decided on the grades mind.
Plenty of stabs at it here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/Europe/England/
http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/Europe/Wales/
http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/Europe/Scotland/
Example of London Wall
http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/Europe/England/Peak_District/Millstone_E...
I'm not sure how they decided on the grades mind.
In reply to ksjs:> for what its i worth i dont think trad is ever graded for exposure, that is a psychological, non-objective factor surely?
In reply to JimR: Dreadnought at Berry Head springs to mind ...
Not to me. The traverse is quite hard and would deserve E3 without the yawning chasm beneath your toes IMO (though maybe my mind was playing tricks with me and I was overgripping - what with the yawning chasm beneath my toes n'all)
In reply to JimR: Dreadnought at Berry Head springs to mind ...
Not to me. The traverse is quite hard and would deserve E3 without the yawning chasm beneath your toes IMO (though maybe my mind was playing tricks with me and I was overgripping - what with the yawning chasm beneath my toes n'all)
In reply to John Gillott:
Can't say my quick skim at their idea of grades for routes on Curbar has filled me with confidence in their ability to convert. 5.13c for End of the Affair is way off (from what I've read). Perhaps they've just applied a formula based on E grade and tech grade. Shame: I'd imagined that loads of Americans had pooled their experiences of climbing in the UK.
Can't say my quick skim at their idea of grades for routes on Curbar has filled me with confidence in their ability to convert. 5.13c for End of the Affair is way off (from what I've read). Perhaps they've just applied a formula based on E grade and tech grade. Shame: I'd imagined that loads of Americans had pooled their experiences of climbing in the UK.
In reply to John Gillott:
US grades are all over the place as anyone who has visited Yosemite will know despite it being the Y of YDS. I appreciate we have a special relationship with the US (they tell us to jump, we ask how high) but gradewise French is the International grade language of choice.
US grades are all over the place as anyone who has visited Yosemite will know despite it being the Y of YDS. I appreciate we have a special relationship with the US (they tell us to jump, we ask how high) but gradewise French is the International grade language of choice.
In reply to shark:
Left Wall @ Dinas Cromlech = F6a+
I reckon I've done routes of a similar style in Costa Durada, 40m vertical juggy pumpathons at the same grade
Left Wall @ Dinas Cromlech = F6a+
I reckon I've done routes of a similar style in Costa Durada, 40m vertical juggy pumpathons at the same grade
In reply to jkarran: Silly Arete makes me think of Pincushion - what french grade for this anyone? im sure ive done easier 7a+s!
In reply to Owen W-G:
I only seconded it but after the first short pitch the gear is excellent and plentiful.
jk
I only seconded it but after the first short pitch the gear is excellent and plentiful.
jk
In reply to flaneur:
I'd disagree with 'rarely' in this statement. I'm happy to believe that in certain circumstances (not the majority) a sport OR bouldering grade can add useful additional information over and above the full UK grade, but to suggest that the totally untried "UK adjectival plus sport grade" is genrally a better system than UK trad is a case of "grass is greener" IMO.
>
> Over all standards of climbing, a combination of UK adjectival + sport grade is rarely less informative than UK adjectival + UK tech. and often more informative.
> Over all standards of climbing, a combination of UK adjectival + sport grade is rarely less informative than UK adjectival + UK tech. and often more informative.
I'd disagree with 'rarely' in this statement. I'm happy to believe that in certain circumstances (not the majority) a sport OR bouldering grade can add useful additional information over and above the full UK grade, but to suggest that the totally untried "UK adjectival plus sport grade" is genrally a better system than UK trad is a case of "grass is greener" IMO.
Are we not saying UK Adjec + UK Tech + French though? Not replacing the UK tech with french...
In reply to ksjs:
Seriously no harder than 6a in The Dentelles or at Buis les Baronnies.
Enty
> (In reply to jkarran) Silly Arete makes me think of Pincushion - what french grade for this anyone? im sure ive done easier 7a+s!
Seriously no harder than 6a in The Dentelles or at Buis les Baronnies.
Enty
In reply to ksjs:
Pincushion has a 5c crux so 6a+/b but again means little because it's a cruxy route - all you're doing is taking the English tech crux move and trying to imagine a sport route that might have a technical move of the same grade and then trying to imagine how that might be graded if you were giving sport grades to technical moves.
> (In reply to jkarran) Silly Arete makes me think of Pincushion - what french grade for this anyone? im sure ive done easier 7a+s!
Pincushion has a 5c crux so 6a+/b but again means little because it's a cruxy route - all you're doing is taking the English tech crux move and trying to imagine a sport route that might have a technical move of the same grade and then trying to imagine how that might be graded if you were giving sport grades to technical moves.
In reply to shark:
Welcome to adjectival grades - they describe the experience you will have so yes, exposure, or 'feel', if you like are definitely included.
> (In reply to ksjs)> for what its i worth i dont think trad is ever graded for exposure, that is a psychological, non-objective factor surely?
>
>
Welcome to adjectival grades - they describe the experience you will have so yes, exposure, or 'feel', if you like are definitely included.
In reply to Owen W-G: Left wall is 6b+ imo. Id rather solo right wall than left.
The Moon isnt particularly safe. there are lots of easier E3's.
Yeah tales probably 6b+/6c thinking about it. Some pockety pulls up top mind.
The Moon isnt particularly safe. there are lots of easier E3's.
Yeah tales probably 6b+/6c thinking about it. Some pockety pulls up top mind.
In reply to Alex Mason:
Which bits? I didn't like the rock in the first 15m but it was mostly pretty steady.
jk
> The Moon isnt particularly safe. there are lots of easier E3's.
Which bits? I didn't like the rock in the first 15m but it was mostly pretty steady.
jk
In reply to jkarran: The big run-out to the stance on pitch 2. And P3 is probably 6b.
In reply to Alex Mason: 6C? oh flaky wall you will be mine this year, I feel I may have blown onsight though already following you up that direct starting crack on oringinal route?
In reply to Alex Mason:
Into the corner? Fair enough but it's descending and the gear on the arete will swing you back out into space. It's also comparatively easy climbing which is good because it feels fairly serious to follow.
Possibly. I was weak and unfit at the time but it's very much my preferred climbing style.
> (In reply to jkarran) The big run-out to the stance on pitch 2.
Into the corner? Fair enough but it's descending and the gear on the arete will swing you back out into space. It's also comparatively easy climbing which is good because it feels fairly serious to follow.
> And P3 is probably 6b.
Possibly. I was weak and unfit at the time but it's very much my preferred climbing style.
In reply to GuyVG: i hope your joking you little pendant!
In reply to Alex Mason:
? It's only 5b English
> (In reply to jkarran) The big run-out to the stance on pitch 2. And P3 is probably 6b.
? It's only 5b English
In reply to Bulls Crack:? It's only 5b English
But that's the beauty of the British dual system - ie it sounds like it's E2 5b - lots of 5b moves!
But that's the beauty of the British dual system - ie it sounds like it's E2 5b - lots of 5b moves!
In reply to Alex Mason: How about adding trad grades (adjectival and technical) to sport routes - then you'd know whether it was cruxy or sustained
I think this makes allot of sense now, given the head point etc.. It will also assist with onsight as it gives more info - which is a good thing.
E7 6b (7b+), E7 6b (8a) - two very different routes? transparency is all good - harder routes will get onsighted?
E7 6b (7b+), E7 6b (8a) - two very different routes? transparency is all good - harder routes will get onsighted?
In reply to Cardi:
Not that many! just decribes in an exposed/serious position - which sport grades don't do.
> (In reply to Bulls Crack)? It's only 5b English
>
> But that's the beauty of the British dual system - ie it sounds like it's E2 5b - lots of 5b moves!
>
> But that's the beauty of the British dual system - ie it sounds like it's E2 5b - lots of 5b moves!
Not that many! just decribes in an exposed/serious position - which sport grades don't do.
In reply to Bulls Crack:
I thought that - F5+ properly bolted!
Chris
> (In reply to Alex Mason)
> [...]
>
> ? It's only 5b English
> [...]
>
> ? It's only 5b English
I thought that - F5+ properly bolted!
Chris
In reply to Bulls Crack: no, no, no!
In reply to Alex Mason: It has just dawned on me that th anti-sport graders think its swapping the grading systeem. This is not the case. The idea is to support the british system with more, helpful information. Anyway in the op i said no arguing :p
In reply to Alex Mason:
Let's really throw a rock in the pool. A guy I occasionally climbed with (a prolific new router on trad and bolts up to 7c - that should get everyone guessing) once assured me: "There's nothing harder than Hard VS on bolts."
Discuss!
Let's really throw a rock in the pool. A guy I occasionally climbed with (a prolific new router on trad and bolts up to 7c - that should get everyone guessing) once assured me: "There's nothing harder than Hard VS on bolts."
Discuss!
In reply to Wiley Coyote:
Then he didn't really understand the system in the way most folk do.
jk
> Let's really throw a rock in the pool. A guy I occasionally climbed with (a prolific new router on trad and bolts up to 7c - that should get everyone guessing) once assured me: "There's nothing harder than Hard VS on bolts."
> Discuss!
> Discuss!
Then he didn't really understand the system in the way most folk do.
jk
In reply to John Gillott:
Not as far off as Bond Street at 5.9.
I wish people would stop this silly habit of giving trad routes sport grades. ksjs seems to be a particular idiot - objected to by people who've never placed a runner in their lives, forsooth. Maybe by 'runner' he meant 'bolt'.
jcm
Not as far off as Bond Street at 5.9.
I wish people would stop this silly habit of giving trad routes sport grades. ksjs seems to be a particular idiot - objected to by people who've never placed a runner in their lives, forsooth. Maybe by 'runner' he meant 'bolt'.
jcm
In reply to Alex Mason: must admit that when we do trad toutes we discuss what french grade it would be, as this is the physical difficulty of climbing the route, the english technical grade as that is the technical difficulty of the hardest move (i know, i know..another can of worms) and the adjectival grade which endeavours to encompass both plus the head bit. Knowing all three gives pretty good info about the nature of the route.
In reply to Alex Mason: There is no doubt that applying multiple grading systems (unless they are just 1-1 transformations) to any route (trad or sport) will increase the information about the route for potential ascentionists. So as an example giving sport, bouldering and US 5+danger rating grades to a trad route will tell you more about it. IMO there are a few questions that need to be asked:
1. At what point (if any) does adding extra grading information become route beta?
2. Do we always want more and more information about routes before climbing them? - to some extent I think this desire is a general one about information in today's western society.
3. Is the extra information gained from adding the grade in a different system enough to make it worth the effort (of working it out). Consensus on UKC seems to be that on higher grade trad routes, adding the sport grade would be useful and on micro routes, adding the bouldering grade would be useful.
As has been said before many times on these forums - adding a single dimensional sport or bouldering grade to two dimensional trad grades shouldn't (in theory) add any information - it only does (again IMO) because trad grades (especially the technical grade) were allowed to get progressively wider in the upper levels - thus becoming less useful.
Getting almost philosophical, grades (not just climbing ones) are there to band/differentiate between objects with different characteristics (for climbing it's the difficulty of routes), if they don't manage this then they're not very useful.
1. At what point (if any) does adding extra grading information become route beta?
2. Do we always want more and more information about routes before climbing them? - to some extent I think this desire is a general one about information in today's western society.
3. Is the extra information gained from adding the grade in a different system enough to make it worth the effort (of working it out). Consensus on UKC seems to be that on higher grade trad routes, adding the sport grade would be useful and on micro routes, adding the bouldering grade would be useful.
As has been said before many times on these forums - adding a single dimensional sport or bouldering grade to two dimensional trad grades shouldn't (in theory) add any information - it only does (again IMO) because trad grades (especially the technical grade) were allowed to get progressively wider in the upper levels - thus becoming less useful.
Getting almost philosophical, grades (not just climbing ones) are there to band/differentiate between objects with different characteristics (for climbing it's the difficulty of routes), if they don't manage this then they're not very useful.
In reply to Enty: i can well imagine. think ive just spent too much time bouldering and on indoor walls over last while and need to get back into more delicate use of feet and trad's 3d contortions...
In reply to Bulls Crack: im not sure who lays down the rules but i just cant and dont see that an adjectival grade includes exposure. this is so highly subjective unlike the other factors that the grade does account for.
In reply to ksjs:
Nobody. Climbing isn't a sport. There are no rules. Norms, yes. Rules, no.
If exposure is a significant factor (e.g. you leave your gear and totally commit to crimping onto a hanging arete and think, "F*ck me!") of course it's part of the grade.
Er, everything's subjective... even objectivity.
Mick
> (In reply to Bulls Crack) im not sure who lays down the rules
Nobody. Climbing isn't a sport. There are no rules. Norms, yes. Rules, no.
> but i just cant and dont see that an adjectival grade includes exposure.
If exposure is a significant factor (e.g. you leave your gear and totally commit to crimping onto a hanging arete and think, "F*ck me!") of course it's part of the grade.
> this is so highly subjective unlike the other factors that the grade does account for.
Er, everything's subjective... even objectivity.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ward:
Partic when you suffer from vertigo and are terrified of heights .. like me!!
> (In reply to ksjs)
>
>
>
> Er, everything's subjective... even objectivity.
>
> Mick
> Er, everything's subjective... even objectivity.
>
> Mick
Partic when you suffer from vertigo and are terrified of heights .. like me!!
In reply to JimR:
Well, good on you for going climbing, then. I know people have different views on Ran Fiennes but I was really impressed by him climbing the Eigerwand with vertigo. Exhilarating exposure (to most of the rest of us) must have been absolutely terrifing. And the cumulative effect of terror is utterly draining.
I guess that, in the end, climbing is all about confronting our weaknesses (well, and having fun in the sun!)
Mick
Well, good on you for going climbing, then. I know people have different views on Ran Fiennes but I was really impressed by him climbing the Eigerwand with vertigo. Exhilarating exposure (to most of the rest of us) must have been absolutely terrifing. And the cumulative effect of terror is utterly draining.
I guess that, in the end, climbing is all about confronting our weaknesses (well, and having fun in the sun!)
Mick
In reply to Mick Ward: i just dont see it that way and i think the suggestion that everything is subjective (in the context of this discussion) is wrong. it is widely agreed (at least as far as i understand it) that grades are a consensus ie something that can be objectively assessed and agreed on.
if youre totally safe but scared then thats down to the individual but you remain objectively safe, period. as i mentioned before, this argument (yours) surely means i can claim E8 onsight if i have an equivalent experience on a VS for example?
if youre totally safe but scared then thats down to the individual but you remain objectively safe, period. as i mentioned before, this argument (yours) surely means i can claim E8 onsight if i have an equivalent experience on a VS for example?
In reply to Mick Ward:
Pretty sure 'no chipping' is a rule?
> Nobody. Climbing isn't a sport. There are no rules. Norms, yes. Rules,
Pretty sure 'no chipping' is a rule?
In reply to Jay_Kay:
Where? Pretty much everywhere I've ever climbed has had chipped/modified holds. Funny that if it's a 'rule'.
It's a nice aspiration and it's now nearly the accepted norm in many places but it's not a set in stone rule by any stretch.
There are no universally accepted rules, just norms that change with time.
jk
> Pretty sure 'no chipping' is a rule?
Where? Pretty much everywhere I've ever climbed has had chipped/modified holds. Funny that if it's a 'rule'.
It's a nice aspiration and it's now nearly the accepted norm in many places but it's not a set in stone rule by any stretch.
There are no universally accepted rules, just norms that change with time.
jk
In reply to Wiley Coyote: Let's really throw a rock in the pool. A guy I occasionally climbed with (a prolific new router on trad and bolts up to 7c - that should get everyone guessing) once assured me: "There's nothing harder than Hard VS on bolts."
He was tugging your todger, Wiley
> Discuss!
He was tugging your todger, Wiley
In reply to Wiley Coyote:
If there is no harder than HVS on bolts, why is he only climbing 7c?
> (In reply to Alex Mason)
>
> Let's really throw a rock in the pool. A guy I occasionally climbed with (a prolific new router on trad and bolts up to 7c - that should get everyone guessing) once assured me: "There's nothing harder than Hard VS on bolts."
> Discuss!
>
> Let's really throw a rock in the pool. A guy I occasionally climbed with (a prolific new router on trad and bolts up to 7c - that should get everyone guessing) once assured me: "There's nothing harder than Hard VS on bolts."
> Discuss!
If there is no harder than HVS on bolts, why is he only climbing 7c?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: wish people would stop this silly habit of giving trad routes sport grades.
You can wish all you like it ain't going to happen. The French grade isn't solely a sport grade anymore. It grades trad routes and deep water soloing the world over. Even the top trad climbers have to think in French grades first to re-convert to an E grade. Move with the times - it will make you feel younger, maybe.
You can wish all you like it ain't going to happen. The French grade isn't solely a sport grade anymore. It grades trad routes and deep water soloing the world over. Even the top trad climbers have to think in French grades first to re-convert to an E grade. Move with the times - it will make you feel younger, maybe.
In reply to shark: Perhaps I'm being a bit thick and at the end of the day I'm not really sure that it matters if french grades are added to UK trad grades but for the life of me I cannot see what additional information this gives. Can someone please explain. I'm only qualified to judge on routes up to E4 but if a route is given E4,6a what would adding say F6c to it tell me?
Signed grumpy old traditionalist. But I do climb sport.
Al
Signed grumpy old traditionalist. But I do climb sport.
Al
In reply to tradlad:
It would tell you that it's safer than an E4 6a F6b+.
> if a route is given E4,6a what would adding say F6c to it tell me?
It would tell you that it's safer than an E4 6a F6b+.
In reply to tradlad:
Lets take two E4 6as on Curbar: Usurper and Moon Walk. I reckon the first might get as much as 6c+, the latter as little as 6b. So adding a sport grade tells you something. Now, you and jcm might say that's obvious from looking at them, but it won't always be the case, and of course on a big route you can't always see higher pitches from the ground.
Lets take two E4 6as on Curbar: Usurper and Moon Walk. I reckon the first might get as much as 6c+, the latter as little as 6b. So adding a sport grade tells you something. Now, you and jcm might say that's obvious from looking at them, but it won't always be the case, and of course on a big route you can't always see higher pitches from the ground.
In reply to douglas: I don't understand where safety comes into it. I thought that French grades applied to bolted routes.
Al
Al
In reply to John Gillott: What something does it tell me. One is easier than the other? If that is the case I would expect the overall to be up for discussion.
Al
Al
In reply to tradlad:
it's telling you that Usurper is physically harder - harder to toprope or would-be-harder as a sports route if it was bolted.
Put it another way. Suppose I was a bold, technically competent, but unfit climber whose maximum onsight sports grade was 6c. Suppose I fancied trying to onsight an E4 6a. I'd be better off trying Moon Walk.
it's telling you that Usurper is physically harder - harder to toprope or would-be-harder as a sports route if it was bolted.
Put it another way. Suppose I was a bold, technically competent, but unfit climber whose maximum onsight sports grade was 6c. Suppose I fancied trying to onsight an E4 6a. I'd be better off trying Moon Walk.
In reply to tradlad:
Nothing!
> (In reply to shark) Perhaps I'm being a bit thick and at the end of the day I'm not really sure that it matters if french grades are added to UK trad grades but for the life of me I cannot see what additional information this gives. Can someone please explain. I'm only qualified to judge on routes up to E4 but if a route is given E4,6a what would adding say F6c to it tell me?
Nothing!
In reply to tradlad:
Yes you are.
Take two E5 6as, one is F6a the other F7b. Immediately you know the first must be sketchy/bold as hell to be worth E5 with climbing that easy on it and the second one is going to be sustained and pumpy (to earn 7b with only 6a moves) but safe (or it would be more than E5 for that difficulty of climbing). Sure you could probably work some of this out from standing at the bottom and looking up at them or from good guidebook descriptions, but say you're going to have to walk for an hour or abb into a seacliff to look at them and the descriptions aren't that detailed, knowing what the score is could be very useful in deciding whether it's something you want to do or not.
> (In reply to shark) Perhaps I'm being a bit thick
Yes you are.
Take two E5 6as, one is F6a the other F7b. Immediately you know the first must be sketchy/bold as hell to be worth E5 with climbing that easy on it and the second one is going to be sustained and pumpy (to earn 7b with only 6a moves) but safe (or it would be more than E5 for that difficulty of climbing). Sure you could probably work some of this out from standing at the bottom and looking up at them or from good guidebook descriptions, but say you're going to have to walk for an hour or abb into a seacliff to look at them and the descriptions aren't that detailed, knowing what the score is could be very useful in deciding whether it's something you want to do or not.
In reply to John Gillott: Does that not suggest that one or the other should be E3 or E5? The statement "harder to top rope" is beginning to make some sense and I can see some logic in that but I still think that the E grade goes some way towards that.
Al
Al
In reply to tradlad:
Yeah, French grades are usually applied to bolted routes but here the French grades are given to trad routes under the pretence that they are bolted or that the route is top roped / seconded so that all difficulties due to the trad nature are removed. If two E4 6a's were bolted one could be F6b+ and the other F6c, say. The route that is now F6b+ probably had poorer gear or was harder to onsight, for some reason other than the dificulty of the moves, than the F6c.
> (In reply to douglas) I don't understand where safety comes into it. I thought that French grades applied to bolted routes.
>
> Al
>
> Al
Yeah, French grades are usually applied to bolted routes but here the French grades are given to trad routes under the pretence that they are bolted or that the route is top roped / seconded so that all difficulties due to the trad nature are removed. If two E4 6a's were bolted one could be F6b+ and the other F6c, say. The route that is now F6b+ probably had poorer gear or was harder to onsight, for some reason other than the dificulty of the moves, than the F6c.
In reply to tradlad:
They're both perfect examples of grit E4s to me. E4s come in different shapes and sizes, and climbers have different strengths and weaknesses. The french grade is giving you a bit of extra information, which might let a particular climber know that one E4 is more for them than another. It can work both ways - the fit and less bold climber might be more tempted by Usurper.
They're both perfect examples of grit E4s to me. E4s come in different shapes and sizes, and climbers have different strengths and weaknesses. The french grade is giving you a bit of extra information, which might let a particular climber know that one E4 is more for them than another. It can work both ways - the fit and less bold climber might be more tempted by Usurper.
In reply to tradlad: It doesn't in this case though does it (or many others) because both the routes used in the example get exactly the same E grade, even though one is harder to top rope than the other.
Another example from up my way would be two steep wall routes:
Final Solution at Creag Dubh E5 6a: A steep wall, very bold with groundfall potential from the crux - pretty straightforward climbing, maybe F6b+? on top rope?
vs
Lady Charlotte at Dunkled E5 6a: Reasonable gear but not all obvious. Harder climbing on top rope (at least 6c+?) despite being given exactly the same E Grade.
Another example from up my way would be two steep wall routes:
Final Solution at Creag Dubh E5 6a: A steep wall, very bold with groundfall potential from the crux - pretty straightforward climbing, maybe F6b+? on top rope?
vs
Lady Charlotte at Dunkled E5 6a: Reasonable gear but not all obvious. Harder climbing on top rope (at least 6c+?) despite being given exactly the same E Grade.
In reply to abarro81: I was joking, you are being rude but I will give you the benefit of the doubt because of your youth and the difficulty of communication on forums. I do know that the UK system has worked OK for years, at least for routes up to E5 and tells me and most of the climbers I know enough.
Some time ago Ed Ward Drummond introduced a system or should I say tried to introduce a system to quantify every aspect of a route but it never caught on. One of the reasons, I believe, was that climbers wanted to retain a certain amount of adventure and exploration and his system just reduced the whole thing to climbing by numbers and letters. I think that the current UK system has kept the right balance of information and adventure but there is the danger that it could be reduced to gymnastics.
Al
Some time ago Ed Ward Drummond introduced a system or should I say tried to introduce a system to quantify every aspect of a route but it never caught on. One of the reasons, I believe, was that climbers wanted to retain a certain amount of adventure and exploration and his system just reduced the whole thing to climbing by numbers and letters. I think that the current UK system has kept the right balance of information and adventure but there is the danger that it could be reduced to gymnastics.
Al
In reply to tradlad:
Yes but UK grades do go up for a bold route and French grades grade the whole route. So if the route gets F6b perfectly protected its easier physically than would be expected for E4 6a hence must be run out where as E4 6a F6c+ will be well protected and sustained. The idea is to use the French grade to indicate how sustained the route is rather than how well protected.
> (In reply to douglas) I don't understand where safety comes into it. I thought that French grades applied to bolted routes.
>
>
Yes but UK grades do go up for a bold route and French grades grade the whole route. So if the route gets F6b perfectly protected its easier physically than would be expected for E4 6a hence must be run out where as E4 6a F6c+ will be well protected and sustained. The idea is to use the French grade to indicate how sustained the route is rather than how well protected.
In reply to neil the weak:
An excellent example of how the description can give ten times more information in a few words than a French grade which means nothing to, for example, me.
jcm
An excellent example of how the description can give ten times more information in a few words than a French grade which means nothing to, for example, me.
jcm
In reply to neil the weak: But you will always get such discrepencies unless the Ed Ward Drummond system, which I have referred to in a previous post, is adopted. EWD attempted to objectively quantify EVERY aspect of a route. I have a suspicion (braces to get flamed) that this is being driven by climbers who have come to the game via sport rather than trad.
Al
Al
In reply to John Gillott:
C'mon, John, if you need to be told that gritstone cracks of the same trad grade would attract a higher French grade if bolted than slabby gritstone aretes with the gear a bit above half-height, then the chances of you getting up either Usurper or Moonwalk are minimal.
Anyway, we seem to be ignoring the main question. What French grade is Gigglin' Crack, d'you reckon?
One question which I always wonder about with these tiresome people - is this French grade supposed to take into account the difficulty of placing the gear, or not? In my experience this is generally half the battle on pumpy trad routes.
jcm
C'mon, John, if you need to be told that gritstone cracks of the same trad grade would attract a higher French grade if bolted than slabby gritstone aretes with the gear a bit above half-height, then the chances of you getting up either Usurper or Moonwalk are minimal.
Anyway, we seem to be ignoring the main question. What French grade is Gigglin' Crack, d'you reckon?
One question which I always wonder about with these tiresome people - is this French grade supposed to take into account the difficulty of placing the gear, or not? In my experience this is generally half the battle on pumpy trad routes.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Yes, but that's because you don't sport climb John!
That American website messed it up, I think because they don't understand the English system. I'd be interested to see it done properly - as I understand it the grade 5.11c is effectively a French grade (in this case 6c+), perhaps with a bit of something else thrown in, perhaps not. Then they give some indication of danger with R, X etc. So, you might say that the information they give out with the grade is similar to the information that would be given out with a French grade and an E grade (using the two grades in combination). In other words what's missing from their system is what our system gives - the difficulty of the hardest move. By the same token what's missing from our system is a clear sense of the overall difficulty of the route, physically and technically speaking.
Yes, but that's because you don't sport climb John!
That American website messed it up, I think because they don't understand the English system. I'd be interested to see it done properly - as I understand it the grade 5.11c is effectively a French grade (in this case 6c+), perhaps with a bit of something else thrown in, perhaps not. Then they give some indication of danger with R, X etc. So, you might say that the information they give out with the grade is similar to the information that would be given out with a French grade and an E grade (using the two grades in combination). In other words what's missing from their system is what our system gives - the difficulty of the hardest move. By the same token what's missing from our system is a clear sense of the overall difficulty of the route, physically and technically speaking.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
you'll have to make do with, say, 5.10a I'm afraid!
> (In reply to John Gillott)
>
>
>
> Anyway, we seem to be ignoring the main question. What French grade is Gigglin' Crack, d'you reckon?
>
>
>
>
> Anyway, we seem to be ignoring the main question. What French grade is Gigglin' Crack, d'you reckon?
>
you'll have to make do with, say, 5.10a I'm afraid!
In reply to John Gillott:
Most systems have two components rather than three, and the French grade is far and away the easiest to guess from the description and the route. Abarro might have half a point with untravelled sea-cliff routes, but if you're doing that sort of route the element of the unknown is probably desirable anyway.
I don't sport climb much, no, but anyway I strongly doubt that if I did the French grade would tell me much. It's OK for sport-style routes, but most trad routes aren't like that. I mean, come on, you can climb Portland 6b or 6b indoors; is that really remotely what you need to get you up Moonwalk? Or 6c+ and Usurper? You need to be able to climb respectively bold low-end E4 and pumpy mid-to-upper E4. If you don't know what that involves, you probably won't be able to do it no matter what French grade you might think be told it is.
jcm
Most systems have two components rather than three, and the French grade is far and away the easiest to guess from the description and the route. Abarro might have half a point with untravelled sea-cliff routes, but if you're doing that sort of route the element of the unknown is probably desirable anyway.
I don't sport climb much, no, but anyway I strongly doubt that if I did the French grade would tell me much. It's OK for sport-style routes, but most trad routes aren't like that. I mean, come on, you can climb Portland 6b or 6b indoors; is that really remotely what you need to get you up Moonwalk? Or 6c+ and Usurper? You need to be able to climb respectively bold low-end E4 and pumpy mid-to-upper E4. If you don't know what that involves, you probably won't be able to do it no matter what French grade you might think be told it is.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: This may be an extreme but I know someone who could climb 7b indoors but failed on a VS.
Al
Al
In reply to tradlad:
Time for my Adam Lincoln jammin' stories.
Hell, I remember failing on a VS myself and climbing a nearby E4 the same day.
jcm
Time for my Adam Lincoln jammin' stories.
Hell, I remember failing on a VS myself and climbing a nearby E4 the same day.
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Of course the French Grade for a rarely travelled sea-cliff route is likely to be suspect anyway?
Chris
Of course the French Grade for a rarely travelled sea-cliff route is likely to be suspect anyway?
Chris
In reply to tradlad:
In my experience there's two types of people who want the french grade:
1) Lower grade climbers who want to think they are capable of doing the higher E grades.
2) Higher grade climbers who want to know how hard the route actually is to physically do.
1) tend to kid themselves a bit.
2) Its useful info.
In my experience there's two types of people who want the french grade:
1) Lower grade climbers who want to think they are capable of doing the higher E grades.
2) Higher grade climbers who want to know how hard the route actually is to physically do.
1) tend to kid themselves a bit.
2) Its useful info.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Very grit-centric view, as someone who's trad ambitions were in Wales / Pembroke / Peak & Yorkshire limestone etc I've done plenty of of mid E grade routes which have a 'sport style' in terms of climbing.
> (In reply to John Gillott)
>
>
>
> I don't sport climb much, no, but anyway I strongly doubt that if I did the French grade would tell me much. It's OK for sport-style routes, but most trad routes aren't like that. I mean, come on, you can climb Portland 6b or 6b indoors; is that really remotely what you need to get you up Moonwalk? Or 6c+ and Usurper?
>
>
>
> I don't sport climb much, no, but anyway I strongly doubt that if I did the French grade would tell me much. It's OK for sport-style routes, but most trad routes aren't like that. I mean, come on, you can climb Portland 6b or 6b indoors; is that really remotely what you need to get you up Moonwalk? Or 6c+ and Usurper?
Very grit-centric view, as someone who's trad ambitions were in Wales / Pembroke / Peak & Yorkshire limestone etc I've done plenty of of mid E grade routes which have a 'sport style' in terms of climbing.
Right then, fook it, i've been lurking long enough and now want I to join in!
Trad and sport simply can't me interchanged. Same as Scotish mixed and bouldering - both forms of climbing but a different final aim. Trad is about the journey you go on from gearing up to pulling over the top, be it a Vdiff or an E number. Sport isn't like that from my perspective. Both trad and sport are as hard as you want to make it but its a different 'hard' in that trad is about the mind overcomming the fear, harder and harder moves makes the fear increase and the mind harder to overcome. Sport is about hard technical climbing with the danger mostly taken away.
The 80's was when the french grades came to the UK and this was a time when lots of ethics and grading systems were being experimented with. The 'E' grade and adjoining French grade were put together sometimes in an attempt to show the french grade with the trad grade, french techical climbing grade with the UK trad danger grade. I recommend anyone to read the Ron Fawcett book, Ron clearly explains what was going on at the time and the challanges to the grades and ethics that were taking place. Its a very clear and concise book about ethics in general and many of Rons points and arguments I actually remember reading about at the time in the mags. It contains answers to a lot of questions that pop up on here.
What if we give a sport grade then to say The file? I'd go for VS 5b? Trouble is, it'd be french 5b with trad gear but to truley be a french grade it'd need bolts. A whole grade less then if it were bolted as the options of crack holds would be greater as there wouldn't be any cams or hexes in the way so you see the grades can't be mixed for that reason alone.
I expect to get flamed now I've made a cock of myself however, those are my views and personal ethics.
In reply to tradlad: Perhaps I'm being a bit thick and at the end of the day I'm not really sure that it matters if french grades are added to UK trad grades but for the life of me I cannot see what additional information this gives. Can someone please explain. > Al
If you are. as I suspect a well rounded trad climber, then it probably wont help too much. For someone familiar with sport grades they would know what they could easily on sight and what would be marginal on a sport route. For a trad route given French 6b and English E4 they could assume it was bold. They could then make a judgement as to how far 6b's of this type (slab, wall etc) was within their physical and technical capabilities if it was bolted. You then arrive at a margin of error you are either happy with that day or not. It might be that you conclude you should be able to downclimb a route of that grade so it would be worth venturing forth if only for a 'look'.
If you are. as I suspect a well rounded trad climber, then it probably wont help too much. For someone familiar with sport grades they would know what they could easily on sight and what would be marginal on a sport route. For a trad route given French 6b and English E4 they could assume it was bold. They could then make a judgement as to how far 6b's of this type (slab, wall etc) was within their physical and technical capabilities if it was bolted. You then arrive at a margin of error you are either happy with that day or not. It might be that you conclude you should be able to downclimb a route of that grade so it would be worth venturing forth if only for a 'look'.
In reply to Ian Patterson:as someone who's trad ambitions were in Wales / Pembroke / Peak & Yorkshire limestone etc I've done plenty of of mid E grade routes which have a 'sport style' in terms of climbing.
These are the best. Also to be found at Swanage and Sharpnose.
These are the best. Also to be found at Swanage and Sharpnose.
In reply to shark:
For sure to get anything out of it, the climber would have to have a sound knowledge of the french grades.
I guess even french grades are subjective along with any other grade system. for example, the other day, we played around on the Kayak slab at curbar. I found the rightwards rock over easy but the following long reach a struggle. My mate who isn't hot on rockovers, struggled but having a higher reach found the next bit easy. Both agreed 5b is spot on but for different reasons. Had I had another inch of reach, it'd feel easy 5b, had my mate had an inch less, he'd feel it was hard 5b, 5c even.
For sure to get anything out of it, the climber would have to have a sound knowledge of the french grades.
I guess even french grades are subjective along with any other grade system. for example, the other day, we played around on the Kayak slab at curbar. I found the rightwards rock over easy but the following long reach a struggle. My mate who isn't hot on rockovers, struggled but having a higher reach found the next bit easy. Both agreed 5b is spot on but for different reasons. Had I had another inch of reach, it'd feel easy 5b, had my mate had an inch less, he'd feel it was hard 5b, 5c even.
In reply to blanchie14c:
Yes whatever grading system it has to be graded for most climbers at the given grade. Individual characteristics that make it individually hard or less hard include reach as you say.
To quote myself:
"Variation in ability to climb a grade is down to different individual talents such as strength, desire, stamina, morphology and technique. A specific above average talent would be advantageous on certain routes and irrelevant on others. Conversely a weakness might stop you in your tracks at a grade you would normally be able to climb"
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1477
Yes whatever grading system it has to be graded for most climbers at the given grade. Individual characteristics that make it individually hard or less hard include reach as you say.
To quote myself:
"Variation in ability to climb a grade is down to different individual talents such as strength, desire, stamina, morphology and technique. A specific above average talent would be advantageous on certain routes and irrelevant on others. Conversely a weakness might stop you in your tracks at a grade you would normally be able to climb"
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1477
In reply to shark:
Quite.
Also there may well arise the situation whereby a particular move is made hard by either having to get into a position where a vital bit of gear needs to be placed or a move is harder because a usable hold is taken up by gear. True french grades not allowing for trad gear therefore wouldn't give a true relection of the difficulty. Suppose each of my examples where on the one route and that route was given french 6a. Should the route be topropped, the frech grade would still reamain valid but the climb easier now in 2 places, bringing it to 5c or 5c+ say so evidence that in that situation it wouldn't work.
All hypothetical of course!
Quite.
Also there may well arise the situation whereby a particular move is made hard by either having to get into a position where a vital bit of gear needs to be placed or a move is harder because a usable hold is taken up by gear. True french grades not allowing for trad gear therefore wouldn't give a true relection of the difficulty. Suppose each of my examples where on the one route and that route was given french 6a. Should the route be topropped, the frech grade would still reamain valid but the climb easier now in 2 places, bringing it to 5c or 5c+ say so evidence that in that situation it wouldn't work.
All hypothetical of course!
In reply to blanchie14c:
Not a common occurence though is it. Perhaps 1 in a 100 routes where vital gear blockage of holds or placing would make it harder and 1 in 500 where it would actually bump it into the next grade.
Gear placing is regularly eschewed where it is too pumpy by out-and-out trad climbers whereas sport climbers are physically better equipped for hanging around in pumpy situations grade for grade.
Not a common occurence though is it. Perhaps 1 in a 100 routes where vital gear blockage of holds or placing would make it harder and 1 in 500 where it would actually bump it into the next grade.
Gear placing is regularly eschewed where it is too pumpy by out-and-out trad climbers whereas sport climbers are physically better equipped for hanging around in pumpy situations grade for grade.
In reply to shark:
I guess its all well and good saying it wouldn't work, well it wouldn't for me. That doesn't mean it wouldn't work for others though eh. If it worked for enough then it could well be adopted. I feel it doesn't though and that why the guide books often give a grade convertion table in them Users wishing for a french grade can simply make the approximate conversion. Guide book being the oprative word here, all the routes and grades are contained within the guide book. By its very name, 'guide' suggests it is a guide to the routes and grades. The individual may find the grade out for them but that could be because of reach etc, the majority of other climbers are not affected so find the given grade about right. The reach/pump/heart flutter symbols used in the rockfax guides give additional information that may help decide on a routes sutibility. These symbols I feel have filled in the little bit missing from our grades and we now have a grading system that tells the climber just about everything they need to know. Our grades are found to be complicated to overseas climbers but they are very robust compared to other systems.
I guess its all well and good saying it wouldn't work, well it wouldn't for me. That doesn't mean it wouldn't work for others though eh. If it worked for enough then it could well be adopted. I feel it doesn't though and that why the guide books often give a grade convertion table in them Users wishing for a french grade can simply make the approximate conversion. Guide book being the oprative word here, all the routes and grades are contained within the guide book. By its very name, 'guide' suggests it is a guide to the routes and grades. The individual may find the grade out for them but that could be because of reach etc, the majority of other climbers are not affected so find the given grade about right. The reach/pump/heart flutter symbols used in the rockfax guides give additional information that may help decide on a routes sutibility. These symbols I feel have filled in the little bit missing from our grades and we now have a grading system that tells the climber just about everything they need to know. Our grades are found to be complicated to overseas climbers but they are very robust compared to other systems.
In reply to Ian Patterson:
Limestone I'll grant you. I can't think of many in Wales. Who gives a flying one what French grade Great Wall or The Axe is?
jcm
Limestone I'll grant you. I can't think of many in Wales. Who gives a flying one what French grade Great Wall or The Axe is?
jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I thought the Axe was very Pembroke like in character - just not quite as good as your classic Pembroke E4.
I thought the Axe was very Pembroke like in character - just not quite as good as your classic Pembroke E4.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Left Wall, Ressurection, Right Wall, Positron, The Strand, Killekranky, The Sun, Warpath etc, etc. I think possibly your attitude reflects the your preference in route style.
> (In reply to Ian Patterson)
>
> Limestone I'll grant you. I can't think of many in Wales. Who gives a flying one what French grade Great Wall or The Axe is?
>
> jcm
>
> Limestone I'll grant you. I can't think of many in Wales. Who gives a flying one what French grade Great Wall or The Axe is?
>
> jcm
Left Wall, Ressurection, Right Wall, Positron, The Strand, Killekranky, The Sun, Warpath etc, etc. I think possibly your attitude reflects the your preference in route style.
Right - so what's The Cad?
If it's 6c+ or less I'm booking my flights
Enty
If it's 6c+ or less I'm booking my flights
Enty
In reply to shark:
I've read some unusual comments on this thread.
The current adjectival/tech system is good, gives a lot of information, doesn't need changing.
However. Substituting the sport grade for the current tech grade would give a much more accurate overall grade. Think about it: in what way is swapping the grade of the SINGLE hardest move for that of the WHOLE route going to give you LESS information ? It's nonsense.
Adjectival grading has struggled to clearly indicate danger vs sustained-ness for a long time now (cf was Strawberries graded E5 7a vs E6 6b? ) so now 'E-for-effort' coexists with neckiness. Unfortunately E-for-effort still doesn't give a highly accurate overall grade, though the tech grade does mean we are left knowing something exact about one move on the route. Whoop-ee-doo!
Subsuming effort into an accurate sport grade allows for seriousness to be properly graded - as it now, by the disparity between E and tech/(or sport) grade, but without confusion over how much that E refers to 'effort' - and how much neck you need.
What's difficult to grasp about that?
There is this though: harder trad climbers will be more interested in the sport grade than lower-grade climbers.
They're more likely to be familiar with it, for one thing, but also the lower trad grades are reasonably exact and tend not to cover a huge band of difficulties... Once you get to E5 that starts to really open up into multiple grades and falls apart totally once you get to tech 6c because the system is so compressed ( 6c= anything harder than 6b mostly and so covers many many grades).
E7 6c could be terminal 7b or safe 8a . That needs knowing. Which you would instantly with a sport grade of E7 7b or E7 8a.
What's not to like about that?
I've read some unusual comments on this thread.
The current adjectival/tech system is good, gives a lot of information, doesn't need changing.
However. Substituting the sport grade for the current tech grade would give a much more accurate overall grade. Think about it: in what way is swapping the grade of the SINGLE hardest move for that of the WHOLE route going to give you LESS information ? It's nonsense.
Adjectival grading has struggled to clearly indicate danger vs sustained-ness for a long time now (cf was Strawberries graded E5 7a vs E6 6b? ) so now 'E-for-effort' coexists with neckiness. Unfortunately E-for-effort still doesn't give a highly accurate overall grade, though the tech grade does mean we are left knowing something exact about one move on the route. Whoop-ee-doo!
Subsuming effort into an accurate sport grade allows for seriousness to be properly graded - as it now, by the disparity between E and tech/(or sport) grade, but without confusion over how much that E refers to 'effort' - and how much neck you need.
What's difficult to grasp about that?
There is this though: harder trad climbers will be more interested in the sport grade than lower-grade climbers.
They're more likely to be familiar with it, for one thing, but also the lower trad grades are reasonably exact and tend not to cover a huge band of difficulties... Once you get to E5 that starts to really open up into multiple grades and falls apart totally once you get to tech 6c because the system is so compressed ( 6c= anything harder than 6b mostly and so covers many many grades).
E7 6c could be terminal 7b or safe 8a . That needs knowing. Which you would instantly with a sport grade of E7 7b or E7 8a.
What's not to like about that?
In reply to mrjonathanr:
E7 F8a could still be terminal if the F8a climbing starts after an easier section of unprotected climbing.
E7 F8a could still be terminal if the F8a climbing starts after an easier section of unprotected climbing.
In reply to manker:
but as just pointed out above, it is still an improvement over the current system!
> (In reply to mrjonathanr)
>
> E7 F8a could still be terminal if the F8a climbing starts after an easier section of unprotected climbing.
>
> E7 F8a could still be terminal if the F8a climbing starts after an easier section of unprotected climbing.
but as just pointed out above, it is still an improvement over the current system!
In reply to Ian Patterson:
Left Wall's an upper-end E2 crack. Presumably French 6b or 6b+ or something. Who on earth needs to know that?
Right Wall is generally given French 6b+. This is IMHO cock talked by posers. It's a big runout low-end E5 pitch; presumably 6c or 6c+ or so.
Positron is generally given 6b+. This is (see above) cock talked by posers. Still, again it's a big run-out low-end E5. Presumably about 6c, except that it's generally covered in sea-mist and slimey and much harder than that in my experience.
For The Strand see Left Wall.
For The Sun see Left Wall and upgrade slightly.
I haven't seen the other two but if I were stood under them with a guidebook I'd be very surprised if my guess were more than half a grade out. And if I can reverse engineer these grades, then they can't actually be much use if you know them up front.
jcm
Left Wall's an upper-end E2 crack. Presumably French 6b or 6b+ or something. Who on earth needs to know that?
Right Wall is generally given French 6b+. This is IMHO cock talked by posers. It's a big runout low-end E5 pitch; presumably 6c or 6c+ or so.
Positron is generally given 6b+. This is (see above) cock talked by posers. Still, again it's a big run-out low-end E5. Presumably about 6c, except that it's generally covered in sea-mist and slimey and much harder than that in my experience.
For The Strand see Left Wall.
For The Sun see Left Wall and upgrade slightly.
I haven't seen the other two but if I were stood under them with a guidebook I'd be very surprised if my guess were more than half a grade out. And if I can reverse engineer these grades, then they can't actually be much use if you know them up front.
jcm
In reply to ksjs:
It's a subjective grade! The grades include position/seriousness of situation/intimidation perhaps.
> (In reply to Bulls Crack) im not sure who lays down the rules but i just cant and dont see that an adjectival grade includes exposure. this is so highly subjective unlike the other factors that the grade does account for.
It's a subjective grade! The grades include position/seriousness of situation/intimidation perhaps.
In reply to mrjonathanr:
Fairly important for a lot of people I would say - and it's the relationship between that and the adj grade that gives you, 9 times out of 10, all the information you need for the majority of climbs.
Adjecteval grades 'struggle' to differentiate between seriousness and sustained nature? True, but only so long as you don't read the guide or look at the route!
>
> (In reply to shark)
>
> . Unfortunately E-for-effort still doesn't give a highly accurate overall grade, though the tech grade does mean we are left knowing something exact about one move on the route. Whoop-ee-doo!
> . Unfortunately E-for-effort still doesn't give a highly accurate overall grade, though the tech grade does mean we are left knowing something exact about one move on the route. Whoop-ee-doo!
Fairly important for a lot of people I would say - and it's the relationship between that and the adj grade that gives you, 9 times out of 10, all the information you need for the majority of climbs.
Adjecteval grades 'struggle' to differentiate between seriousness and sustained nature? True, but only so long as you don't read the guide or look at the route!
>
In reply to Alex Mason:
Rimsky Korsokov?
Warpath?
True Grip?
Pacemaker?
Get some in?
Tangerine Dream?
Goosey Goosey Gander?
Left Wall at Brimham?
Thanks ( ;
Rimsky Korsokov?
Warpath?
True Grip?
Pacemaker?
Get some in?
Tangerine Dream?
Goosey Goosey Gander?
Left Wall at Brimham?
Thanks ( ;
In reply to Matt Maynard:a few years since I did goosey gander,maybe 6c. Roaches,painted rumour-6c+
In reply to Bulls Crack:
TBH it's not the extremes of that style which benefit most from more accurate grades. Everyone knows the Bells is terminal and Requiem is safe.
It's in that mid-ground that you'd be most interested in knowing, to decide if the route was for you.
The E6 F6c+ vs E6 7a+ sort-of-zone. You might be up for a pretty bold 6c+ but feel less-than-safe 7a+ was too close for comfort.
TBH it's not the extremes of that style which benefit most from more accurate grades. Everyone knows the Bells is terminal and Requiem is safe.
It's in that mid-ground that you'd be most interested in knowing, to decide if the route was for you.
The E6 F6c+ vs E6 7a+ sort-of-zone. You might be up for a pretty bold 6c+ but feel less-than-safe 7a+ was too close for comfort.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Start a thread and you might find out.
> (In reply to Ian Patterson)
>
> Limestone I'll grant you. I can't think of many in Wales. Who gives a flying one what French grade Great Wall or The Axe is?
>
> jcm
>
> Limestone I'll grant you. I can't think of many in Wales. Who gives a flying one what French grade Great Wall or The Axe is?
>
> jcm
Start a thread and you might find out.
In reply to Matt Maynard:
All those three are somewhere in the F6c-7a region, but it's been too long for me to remember with more accuracy than that... I found pacemaker the toughest of the three but I think I climbed it pretty badly.
> (In reply to Alex Mason)
> Warpath?
> Pacemaker?
> Get some in?
> Pacemaker?
> Get some in?
All those three are somewhere in the F6c-7a region, but it's been too long for me to remember with more accuracy than that... I found pacemaker the toughest of the three but I think I climbed it pretty badly.
In reply to abarro81: this might help a few people: ive uploaded a file ('trad route sport grades') which summarises all the sport grades suggested for some classic E5s and 6s. see here for the relevant post: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=315050&v=1#x4654534
i think it should be straightforward to understand but any questions let me know. think you just need to right click and do save as or similar and you should be able to download:
http://www.ksjs1.plus.com/
i think it should be straightforward to understand but any questions let me know. think you just need to right click and do save as or similar and you should be able to download:
http://www.ksjs1.plus.com/
In reply to Alex Mason: What about some stuff in Pembs, like Star Wars and Pleasure Dome?
In reply to Cardi: IMHO Star Wars felt 6C when placing gear (speaking objectively without the 'shit better hold on tight I'm on a trad route factor') - am I doing this right?
In reply to Matt Maynard:
Now this is getting really confusing!
> (In reply to Cardi) IMHO Star Wars felt 6C when placing gear
Now this is getting really confusing!
In reply to Cardi: I'd say they're both 6b+.
And Bloody Sunday, about 6c.
Pretty much guesses though. I find it hard to give a French grade if I've led the routes, rather than seconded.
And Bloody Sunday, about 6c.
Pretty much guesses though. I find it hard to give a French grade if I've led the routes, rather than seconded.
Should SW not be at least half a French harder given that PD is E3 5c and SW is E4 5c, given that the gear is similar on both and the extra E grade is more for the sustainedness?
In reply to Cardi: Have you done these routes? The gear is not similar on both. Starting Star Wars my mate was ready to yard the slack and drop me in the ocean. Safer than a pendulum into the belay ledge. At the crux a small wire is about 3 meters off to the left and there's a run out after that. Pleasure Dome is standard E3 5c and not hard for the grade.
In reply to Cardi:
If Pleasure Dome was in The Dentelles and had 9 bolts it would be 6a+.
Bloody Sunday would be 6C bloc.
Star Gate would be 6b
Enty
If Pleasure Dome was in The Dentelles and had 9 bolts it would be 6a+.
Bloody Sunday would be 6C bloc.
Star Gate would be 6b
Enty
In reply to Enty: Are you saying Bloody Sunday Font 6C?
In reply to Cardi:
Which way did you go on SW? Did you go up the corner for a few meters then traverse in, or do the direct (and original?) start? Its just that i've heard that the direct is a lot more serious than up the corner.
FWIW i thought the gear was far more fidly and not super reasuring on SW, where as every peice on PD is bomber, and goes in wel first time.
Which way did you go on SW? Did you go up the corner for a few meters then traverse in, or do the direct (and original?) start? Its just that i've heard that the direct is a lot more serious than up the corner.
FWIW i thought the gear was far more fidly and not super reasuring on SW, where as every peice on PD is bomber, and goes in wel first time.
In reply to Enty:
... and 5+ at Buis, with 6 bolts...
> (In reply to Cardi)
>
> If Pleasure Dome was in The Dentelles and had 9 bolts it would be 6a+.
>
> Enty
>
> If Pleasure Dome was in The Dentelles and had 9 bolts it would be 6a+.
>
> Enty
... and 5+ at Buis, with 6 bolts...
I've not done either I'm afraid. Stood and stared a lot though! I just thought that they would be good examples to see if some of the logic above followed suit
In reply to douglas:
No - the Dentelles guide gives a bloc grade if it's cruxy - BS would be 6a+ apart from that horrible move!!! I hate that route!
Enty
> (In reply to Enty) Are you saying Bloody Sunday Font 6C?
No - the Dentelles guide gives a bloc grade if it's cruxy - BS would be 6a+ apart from that horrible move!!! I hate that route!
Enty
In reply to Enty:
I didn't think there was much in it between them
BS 6b+
PD 6b
SG 6b
Which just goes to show
> (In reply to Cardi)
>
> If Pleasure Dome was in The Dentelles and had 9 bolts it would be 6a+.
>
> Bloody Sunday would be 6C bloc.
>
> Star Gate would be 6b
>
> Enty
>
> If Pleasure Dome was in The Dentelles and had 9 bolts it would be 6a+.
>
> Bloody Sunday would be 6C bloc.
>
> Star Gate would be 6b
>
> Enty
I didn't think there was much in it between them
BS 6b+
PD 6b
SG 6b
Which just goes to show
In reply to jon:
By Buis do you mean St Julien?
> (In reply to Enty)
> [...]
>
> ... and 5+ at Buis, with 6 bolts...
> [...]
>
> ... and 5+ at Buis, with 6 bolts...
By Buis do you mean St Julien?
In reply to Bulls Crack:
Ha ha yes - I got spanked again there on Monday!!
Vertical fingery walls (which I like!)- 6c / 6c+ which would be E5 on nuts!!!
Enty
> (In reply to jon)
> [...]
>
> By Buis do you mean St Julien?
> [...]
>
> By Buis do you mean St Julien?
Ha ha yes - I got spanked again there on Monday!!
Vertical fingery walls (which I like!)- 6c / 6c+ which would be E5 on nuts!!!
Enty
In reply to Bulls Crack:
Yes, that's the one...
> (In reply to jon)
> [...]
>
> By Buis do you mean St Julien?
> [...]
>
> By Buis do you mean St Julien?
Yes, that's the one...
In reply to Enty:
Ive been told by a reliable source its 6c. honestly.
so the question is, are you a man of your word??
> The Cad?
> If it's 6c+ or less I'm booking my flights
> If it's 6c+ or less I'm booking my flights
Ive been told by a reliable source its 6c. honestly.
so the question is, are you a man of your word??
In reply to Matt Maynard:
> (In reply to Alex Mason)
>
>
> True Grip? 6b+ just a tad run-out. (would be 6b without LW direct finish)
> Tangerine Dream? 6c/+
> Left Wall at Brimham? apparently 6c/+
>
> Thanks ( ;
> Tangerine Dream? 6c/+
> Left Wall at Brimham? apparently 6c/+
>
> Thanks ( ;
In reply to Alex Mason:
I'd go along with 6c, though obviously it's one of those slabby 6cs that would be easy to fall off compared to a nice 20 degree overhanging jug haul. It wouldn't get more than that at Buoux or somewhere anyway...
> (In reply to Enty)
> [...]
>
>
> Ive been told by a reliable source its 6c. honestly.
> so the question is, are you a man of your word??
> [...]
>
>
> Ive been told by a reliable source its 6c. honestly.
> so the question is, are you a man of your word??
I'd go along with 6c, though obviously it's one of those slabby 6cs that would be easy to fall off compared to a nice 20 degree overhanging jug haul. It wouldn't get more than that at Buoux or somewhere anyway...
In reply to Alex Mason:
Did this today, and its 6c absolute tops!
So that makes Flakey wall 6b+ tops
> High Tor- supersonic E5 6a/7a
Did this today, and its 6c absolute tops!
So that makes Flakey wall 6b+ tops
In reply to Adam Lincoln: Did this today, and its 6c absolute tops!
Sounds like horseshit, looks like horseshit and smells like horseshit - yep I reckon its horseshit.
Adam, now your grade has gone through the roof your opinions on 6c-7a are no longer credible.
Top end 6c+ ....probably.
Sounds like horseshit, looks like horseshit and smells like horseshit - yep I reckon its horseshit.
Adam, now your grade has gone through the roof your opinions on 6c-7a are no longer credible.
Top end 6c+ ....probably.
In reply to shark:
Hmmm....
Off topic, your 7c there looks really good.
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln) Did this today, and its 6c absolute tops!
>
>
> Sounds like horseshit, looks like horseshit and smells like horseshit - yep I reckon its horseshit.
>
> Adam, now your grade has gone through the roof your opinions on 6c-7a are no longer credible.
>
> Top end 6c+ ....probably.
>
>
> Sounds like horseshit, looks like horseshit and smells like horseshit - yep I reckon its horseshit.
>
> Adam, now your grade has gone through the roof your opinions on 6c-7a are no longer credible.
>
> Top end 6c+ ....probably.
Hmmm....
Off topic, your 7c there looks really good.
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
Probably 7c+ but definitely E6 6c
When I reported it Alan James wouldnt let me claim it at 7c+ so it went into the Rockfax at 7c because I had only climbed 7b+ to that point.
Such little faith...
Mad Max is better still. Its a sporty trad route now. A couple of small wires protect the low crux. 7b+ ? and still unfinished business for me.
> Off topic, your 7c there looks really good.
Probably 7c+ but definitely E6 6c
When I reported it Alan James wouldnt let me claim it at 7c+ so it went into the Rockfax at 7c because I had only climbed 7b+ to that point.
Such little faith...
Mad Max is better still. Its a sporty trad route now. A couple of small wires protect the low crux. 7b+ ? and still unfinished business for me.
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