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IMPORTANT: Dali's Hole access...PLEASE READ

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 Jon Ratcliffe 05 Apr 2010
Please please please follow the access advice of no more than 10 climbers in Dali's hole at a time and preferably avoid it all together on bank holidays and weekends.

I went past on Friday and counted 22 people climbing there (not a centre group) which is the sort of situation that can antagonise an already sensitive access issue, especially on a bank holiday when there are likely to be families and general tourists in the quarries.

Incredibly when we went past The Sidings there was only 2 people there, nobody at Looning the Tube area and the other levels were equally empty. I just don't get it. The easy sport routes at Dali's are in the main quite frankly sh*t, on poor rock with difficult access and in full veiw of the main path through the quarries. Pretty much all the easy bolted routes at Looning The Tube, The Sidings and some of the higher levels in contrast are easy to get to, on better rock, better routes and they are in an awesome place, out of view of security guards and tourists.

Check out http://slate.wetpaint.com/ for route info for these areas.

And please, if you're thinking of heading to Dali's, think again of where else you could go, there are now loads of other easy bolted routes in the quarries so have an explore!
Thank you
Jon Ratcliffe.

 Oceanic 05 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:

There's a massive demand for easy sports routes, and because Dali's has had quite a lot of publicity I'm not surprised at all that over use is becoming a problem.

Maybe someone could produce a photocopied guide to all the easy slate sports climbs, and sell it in local climbing shops. This would encourage people away from Dali's and profits could go to re-equiping routes, or some other worthy cause.
 johnnorman 05 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:

This just confirms my belief that Dali`s hole shouls be stripped before the access issues get worse or the quarries are lost.
 PontiusPirate 05 Apr 2010
In reply to Oceanic:

The new definitive guide is out soon: soon = 'early summer'.. hopefully :-S

I wonder if the popularity of Dali's Hole is a product of a kind of 'groupthink' from people new to climbing outside, I simply cannot understand its popularity given the far higher quality of the 'pure' low-grade sports routes on the Sidings Level and above. Add to that the development of low 6 grade limestone routes near Bellenech (sp?) on Anglesey and in a couple of locations along the mainland coast, and Dali's continued popularity becomes even more puzzling.

Fundamentally I don't want to see the slate quarries lost to climbers (and the more adventurous wanders on truly dire days!): its a venue that somehow transcends its man-made origins to compliment the mountain grandeur of Snowdonia and is at the very least the most fitting monument to the toil and lost lives of the thousands that worked, lived and died either within or in the shadow of them.

PP.
 Mark Reeves Global Crag Moderator 05 Apr 2010
In reply to Oceanic:

> Maybe someone could produce a photocopied guide to all the easy slate sports climbs, and sell it in local climbing shops. This would encourage people away from Dali's and profits could go to re-equiping routes, or some other worthy cause.

There was a topo for the sidings available at the beacon. Not sure if it is available at V12 or Browns. Also it ain't rocket science to print out the new route info from the wiki.

I am with John aka Chummer with the thoughts that the routes are particularly poor at Dalis hole.

 Oceanic 05 Apr 2010
In reply to Mark Reeves:
> (In reply to Oceanic)
>
> [...]
>
> it ain't rocket science to print out the new route info from the wiki.

That's true, but my interpretation of the OP is that people aren't printing out the internet info on the other areas.

 Michael Ryan 05 Apr 2010
In reply to Mark Reeves:
> (In reply to Oceanic)
>

> I am with John aka Chummer with the thoughts that the routes are particularly poor at Dalis hole.

Does it matter what you think?

The routes are tightly bolted (safe), of a moderate difficulty (have wide appeal to many climbers), it is a convenient area (not far to walk), the routes are OK (I've done them). The area is in a popular area, North Wales. It has all the ingredients to attract people in large numbers.

I'm with johnnorman. If activity at this area poses a threat to the access on slate as a whole, the routes should be debolted, sacrificed for the greater good.

Other similar areas, if there are any, should be marketed in the new guidebook as an alternative.

 Dan Lane 05 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

To be honest, i thought the routes there were pretty rubbish, so i'd be happy to see them debolted for the better routes in the quarries.
OP Jon Ratcliffe 05 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Mick, it's actually not really that convenient anymore now there's a massive fence guarding access, and added to this there is a significant increase in visits from security; people were asked to leave again last week.
How good the routes are is a relative thing, and relative to how good slate bolted routes (including easy ones) can be I still maintain they're sh*t!

Anyways, lets just hope the message gets through about the access issues, spread the word!
 Michael Ryan 05 Apr 2010
In reply to Dan Lane:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> To be honest, i thought the routes there were pretty rubbish, so i'd be happy to see them debolted for the better routes in the quarries.

I thought they were OK. I wouldn't be happy to see them debolted, as they are popular, but if the popularity of the area is causing problems they probably should go.

I'm sure Elfyn, the British Mountaineering Council's Access and Conservation Officer for Wales will sort it out if there is a problem.
 Michael Ryan 05 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:

Yes quality is subjective.

How do people get over the fence? They must be desperate for a 'clip and go' fix. Worse then meth!
 Dan Lane 05 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Abseil in. there is a large wooden post (like the base of a telegraph pole) that we used, there is also a bolt up top.
 Mark Reeves Global Crag Moderator 05 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I know it doesn't matter what I think Mick, never stopped me sharing it though!

If people walked three minutes up the hill there are easy well bolted routes above looning the tube.

I am all for a honeypot, as I was on the rainbow on sunday Mick, and there wasn't another climber on the whole of rainbow walls. Gone are the days when designer danger was popular!


 Mark Reeves Global Crag Moderator 05 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: You can walk round the back of the hole and descend to the tunnel that leads through to California. By the time you have done that you could be at looning the tube!

I have heard that some people have abseiled in.

I fancy a go on the F7b Mfecane, where there any queues on that route when you went past Chummer?
 Mark Reeves Global Crag Moderator 05 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

> How do people get over the fence? They must be desperate for a 'clip and go' fix. Worse then meth!

They are all on Plant Food now!
 Dan Lane 05 Apr 2010
In reply to Mark Reeves:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)

> If people walked three minutes up the hill there are easy well bolted routes above looning the tube.

This is true, but it doesnt say about the easy sport there in north wales rock, which is the guidebook which i guess a lot of people use, and i for one didnt know about the wiki site before this thread.
OP Jon Ratcliffe 05 Apr 2010
In reply to Dan Lane: or don't bother..................I did feel like unclipping their ab rope and lobbing it off but of course that would be stupid, thoughtless and irresponsible...hmmmm similar to climbing in a big group at Dali's on a bank holiday weekend perhaps...!
OP Jon Ratcliffe 05 Apr 2010
In reply to Mark Reeves: Ha! classic!
 Dan Lane 05 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:

Sorry, i'm tired, and not understanding what you're saying, could you dumb it down a bit please?
OP Jon Ratcliffe 05 Apr 2010
In reply to Dan Lane: it doesn't say about the easy bolted routes in Dali's hole either.
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 05 Apr 2010
In reply to Dan Lane:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> Abseil in. there is a large wooden post (like the base of a telegraph pole) that we used, there is also a bolt up top.

Or you can walk round the right-hand edge of the fence where it doesn't quite reach the rock.

Chris
 Dan Lane 05 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:

It does, on the topo for the holy holy holy area, there is an arrow, pointing to the right saying 'lots of easy sport route' or something along those lines.
OP Jon Ratcliffe 05 Apr 2010
In reply to Chris Craggs: Is this thread about access issues stemming from the over use of Dali's Hole turned into a thread informing people how best to access Dali's Hole? Well done.
 NHARRIS 07 Apr 2010
I was appuled to see photos of a university group + others (+20) in dali's hole over the bank holiday weekend!

If some how you have manage to miss all the information of access into this area....then surely the 8ft fence make mormal people see sence that there is access issue ..not the best place for a group!!! As we did on arrival in november, so split between looming the tube and bus stop!

some Easy routes...short works...if you cant walk into bus stop then any routes are going to be a problem!!
 tonanf 07 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer: i did all those dali hole route before the issue became pressing. there all mediocre. i did them one after the other on a shunt and didnt feel i missed any thing. debolt if there a liability.
 davidwright 07 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:


First of all if you want people to find those routes tell them about them. The best way to do that is to publish a ******* guidebook. The routes at Dali's are popular because they are well known by word of mouth, easy to find and have their grades and names painted at the base so you can find them without a guidebook. They are also next to a good fairly easy trad route so the people that wanted to use them had a reason to be there in the first place. That isn't true of the sidings or looning the tube. I did solstice and equinox last summer and had a good look around bus stop but didn't find any of the easy sport routes that were either there or at the project stage then.

Secondly might I suggest that even though the wiki isn't going to replace a guidebook any time soon (anybody who really thinks it is needs sectioning for their own protection) you improve it. right now it is a very good resource for people involved in the re-bolting project however if I was looking for a place to take a group of 6-10 people for some easy trad or bolt clipping it is about as much use as an asbestos fire lighter. I have tried to use it in the past for this (while some of those routes have been in existance) and given up because the information was far too hard to find or use. To be honest that goes for all the wetpaint wikis however the slate one is the worst and the only one I have tried to use where no other guide book exists. Even if by shear chance I did stumble across the routes on the sidings area there is nothing on that site to tell me how to find Australia or any other quarry before I even think about finding the routes.
 davidwright 07 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:

The quickest change would be to mark up the route names and make the graded list click through. At least that way you could work out where the concentrations of F5's are and then visit your local antiquarian book seller to find a guidebook that might tell you how to get there....
In reply to chummer:

Would not including Dali's Hole in the new slate guide and all future editions of North Wales Rock (and other guide books to the area) help solve this problem?
 Joss 07 Apr 2010
Dalis is a victim of its own success due to the abundance of easily accessible low graded routes. We've all climbed there and the routes are hardly the cream of welsh climbing! No great loss if access is banned.
Its a shame people keep going in there despite the fence being erected, then reinforced, then reinforced again. There wont be anyone else to blame when restricting access to the entire quarry system is more vigourously impemented by First Hydro.
The BMC should stop pussy footing around (as usual) and get a resolve to this issue one way or another.

I say debolt it.

In reply to Joss: How do you debolt Zambesi and Holy Holy Holy?
 Joss 07 Apr 2010
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:
> (In reply to Joss) How do you debolt Zambesi and Holy Holy Holy?

With a hammer drill of course :-P

The trad routes there didnt cause the problem....been there for a lot longer but sadly theyve been affected by this.
OP Jon Ratcliffe 08 Apr 2010
In reply to davidwright: Guide book is being worked on at a pace as we speak by Ground Up, something which I tend to help out on a bit; checking routes, etc. Won't be too much longer.

I am trying to stimulate 'word of mouth' for the other areas by starting this thread.
The wiki is actually a great source of info on re-equiped and new routes but as you rightly say it is designed to be used in conjunction with the old guide. It is not designed as a supplementary guide book and it's main contributors are generally the people re-equiping and putting the new routes up. That is admittedly it's flaw for people like you who don't own the old guide or don't know the quarries. Anyone is welcome to add content, just as Chris Davis did recently when he added a photo topo for Australia; in his own time off his own back for people like you, he doesn't need it himself, no-one is responsible for the content. His topo shows where the main areas are and if you use your nonce it's not too hard to find which route is which, some even have their names and grades scratched on a slate at the base, and you can work along from these known routes.

Quote:"They are also next to a good fairly easy trad route so the people that wanted to use them had a reason to be there in the first place. That isn't true of the sidings or looning the tube. I did solstice and equinox last summer and had a good look around bus stop but didn't find any of the easy sport routes" Amazing! So Looning the Tube, a slate classic is no reason to be on that level then?! MiL arete and some of the other easy trad routes in that area are no reason to be higher up? The new routes tend to be the ones with big, very shiney bolts in, you really can't miss them, it's not rocket science and the easier ones if you don't have their name or grade, are usually the ones that look easy; a low anlged slab or holds you can actually see, slate being such a clean rock makes it quite easy to tell, so go on I dare you to go climbing without being spoon fed with names and numbers, if it proves too hard you can just lower off the bolt, you might even have a good day on some good routes away from the crowds.

With regard to taking groups up onto the slate no commercial groups should be there anyway, taking your group trespassing is not a good start. If they're your friends Dali's is still not good as any groups are discouraged from climbing there with the sensitive access.

Well, maybe for folk who aren't fortunate to have the knowledge in the quarries there will be an article on UKC about easy sport climbing in the quarries including areas and climbs you might not be aware of. Watch this space.

If in the mean time people want to go to Dali's and don't want to search out the other places may I politely ask folk to reconsider their plans, especially at weekends and bank holidays and if you do go there and there are already people there do the same. In the long run what ever happens I will always climb somewhere in the quarries but for the greater good we should respect any sensitive access issues and avoid the places where these issues are the most sensitive.

Right, I'm off climbing to Tremadoc, it's too nice to be getting embroiled on here...
 johnnorman 08 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:

Love your comment about climbing without being spoon fed names and numbers, says it all really doesn`t it. Increasingly people have everything put on a plate for them and so end up congregating like sheep in places like Dali`s Hole because they don`t know what else to do.
 Michael Ryan 08 Apr 2010
In reply to johnnorman:
> (In reply to chummer)
>
> Love your comment about climbing without being spoon fed names and numbers, says it all really doesn`t it. Increasingly people have everything put on a plate for them and so end up congregating like sheep in places like Dali`s Hole because they don`t know what else to do.

You are making big assumptions there.

Some like convenience climbing sometimes. One day they might be there, the next on Cloggy.

You get the drift, easy to label 'people'.

Go to Malham sometime, you might see a man call Mick Lovatt. You could look at him and say that he has to have everything put on a plate for him and so he ends up congregating like a sheep in places like Malham because he doesn't know what else to do.

The next weekend he maybe fighting his way up Bam Bam on Craig Dorys.

Say you have a Uni group. Who can really blame them going to a place like Dali's Hole sport climbs. Short routes, well protected routes, good anchors, easy access. It's dodgy in the hills.

Maybe point the finger the other way, at the locals. They tolerate 'developments' like Dali's Holes.

They know that large groups congregate there, or lots of of smaller parties because of the short routes, well protected routes, good anchors, easy access.

Maybe the locals can sort this 'problem' out. And they are.

Jon is trying to get the word out. Elfyn is on the case. I'm sure Simon has strong thoughts that will translate into action.

Easy to point the finger, better, but harder, to come up with a solution.

Mick
 johnnorman 08 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to johnnorman)
> [...]
>
>
>
> Easy to point the finger, better, but harder, to come up with a solution.
>
> Mick



The solutions easy, strip Dali`s hole!

 Banned User 77 08 Apr 2010
In reply to johnnorman: No its not. The solution is provide easy sport elsewhere. There's a market for it, whether people like it or not, many want that.
 Michael Ryan 08 Apr 2010
In reply to IainRUK:
> (In reply to johnnorman) No its not. The solution is provide easy sport elsewhere. There's a market for it, whether people like it or not, many want that.

There's a 'market' for another 'development' to satisfy 'demand' for 'a demographic' that needs 'a product'.

How far we have come!

 davidwright 08 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:

1) looning the tube is a slate classic at E1 5b that is not a route that is going to interest somebody looking for a fully bolted F5. That isn't a well protected VS corner crack like Zambezi. Have a little bit of thought about what you are saying. get your head out of your @rse and actually think about the grades that might be climbable by somebody who finds F5 a challenge.

2) The people who want them are going to be people least able to just take a chance on a line that could well be 2 or 3 grades either side of what they actually want. With there being plenty of easy angled slabs around that have 2 bolts in 30m and no other pro with only the english 6a or harder moves protected. Very easy to get yourself into a very serious possition.

3) the demand for bolted sport comes from those people who don't want an adventure they want names and numbers, in part so they have a good time and don't kill themselves, but mainly because they don't have the skills for anything else.

4) when I am looking for a cr@p weather venue for a group I don't want to loose the 2 climbable hours scrambling around on some exposed ledges looking for some climbs that I have heard a wispers about that might be around there or could be in a different quarry entirely.

Don't put forward as a source of information a site that is quite obviously not up to the job. If you want to do something about the situation spending less time slaging people off on here and more getting that wiki in to a state where it is actually usable as a guide book by somebody who doesn't think E1 is p!ss easy and know the quarries inside out anyway.
 Michael Ryan 08 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:

For the record, the area in question

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crag.php?id=9

route number: name: grade; number of ascents in UKC logbooks

HOLY HOLY HOLY WALL
16 Lob Scouse E4 6b 1
17 Return to Coldbitz F6c+ ** 1
18 Zambesi VS 4c * 221
19 Harvey's Brassed off Team HVS 5c * 15
20 Launching Pad E1 5b ** 273
21 Holy, Holy, Holy E2 5c *** 178
22 The Chiselling E4 6a * 11
23 At the Cost of a Rope E1 5a * 44
24 La Gendre F6a+ 239
25 Mon Amie F5 217
26 Tolerance F5 258
27 Le Grandpere F5+ 180
28 Pour Tout le Monde F6a 243
29 Departure Lounge F3+ 12
30 Kinder Sport F3 161
31 le petit pois F6a+ 153
32 Slate Arrivals F4+ 44
33 Slate Arrivals left F5 8
34 La Grandmere F5 179
35 La Famille F4+ 28
36 Aardman productions F5 41
37 Resurrection F5+ 7
38 Swing Time F6a 8
39 Binky Bonk Central F4+ 65
40 My Wife's an Alien F4+ 98
41 CAPTAIN SLOG F4+ 49
Add Climb name Grade x
42 Emerald Dyke F4 149
43 The Telescopic Stem Master none 6b * 31
44 Tower of Laughter E1 6a 47
45 Jex's Fumble Clipping Arete (care to be taken) HVS 5a 3
46 Dali's Lemming Ducklings (care to be taken) E3 6b

on the same page...

PLEASE REMEMBER THAT ALL ROUTES ON THE HOLY HOLY HOLY WALL ARE
IN AN AREA OF DISPLAY, AND DUE TO CURRENT SITUATION WITH FIRST
HYDRO, PLEASE `DO NOT `GATHER HERE IN LARGE NUMBERS, OR THIS
COULD HAVE AN AFFECT ON ACCESS TO THE WHOLE QUARRYS.
`DO NOT` DAMAGE THE FENCE!!!!!!!!!!!
DALI`S HOLE
 Mark Reeves Global Crag Moderator 08 Apr 2010
In reply to davidwright:

Hi Dave, it seems like you managed to use the wiki to find dalis hole, and enjoy the climbing there. When people have mentioned looning the tube area within a matter of minutes there is a host of sports routes above the area, most established by small children, they aren't two bolts in 30 metres, there is a range of grades, the rock is far better than at dalis hole.

The area is called the sidings, and a similar range of grades is available on the wiki at an area call above looning the tube. I have cut and pasted the routes from the sidings below. If you want a bad weather venue for a group, then slate just isn't it.

People like you seem so unimaginative, as the starter of the wiki, it was never meant to replace the guide book just allow you to see what new rotues had been established, and which oif the classic routes had been re-equipped. Combining a guidebook and a little common sense it is easy to find these things.

Tip for the the top, high the text in the wiki you want, use ctrl C to copy it (Apple C for macs) and then paste it into a word document for printing, alternative print it direct from the wiki.

I am sorry I can't be there to hold your hand. i hope you enjoy exploring and the adventure.

The Sidings

'N' Gauge F5b/c?(info on uk climbing logbooks says loose flake gone and overgraded at 6a) Follows narrow pillar at the most left end of this level. 4 bolts + twin Bolt lower-off. Nov/07 Josie Ball - age 10.

Side line F4c Climbs out right from first bolt of 'N' Gauge 5 bolts + twin Bolt lower-off.27/1/08 Josie Ball.

Derailed F4b Climbs the corner just left of "Thomas the tank" start direct then move right. 3 bolts + twin bolt lower-off. 27/1/08 Josie Ball.

Thomas the Tank * F4a line between "'n'Gauge" and "Sodor" following slabby rock with crux at the top.4 bolts + twin Bolt lower-off. 16/12/2007 Archie Ball - 5 years old.

Rack and Pin ** F5b+ line left ofSodor corner + slab crux passing top bolt. 4 bolts + twin Bolt lower-off. 16/12/2007 Josie Ball

Sodor ** F5c Follows the hairline crack left of the centre of the wall , where the crack terminates at the horizontal feature continue straight up to lower-off 4 bolts + twin Bolt lower-off. 13/10/07 Josie Ball - age 10.

The Mallard ** F5c Line between Sodor + Polar express - slab line 4 bolts + twin Bolt lower-off. 16/12/2007 Josie Ball

Above The Line. HVS 4c (or so it says in the last two guide books)

Alternative start hvs 5b. Climbs the thin crack right of the normal start to Above the line to its traverse. Follow this to the top. May have been done before. P.Targett solo 05/10/07

Polar Express * F5b, Utilises Phils start ? to continue direct where ATL goes right ,4 bolts + twin Bolt lower-off. 13/10/07 Josie Ball - age 10

Ivor the Engine F5a climbs the slab to the right of last route crux at the top. 3 bolts + twin Bolt lower-off. 27/1/08 Josie Ball.

Gordon * F3c Slab and corner right hand side of the slab. 3 bolts + twin Bolt lower-off. 16/12/2007 Archie Ball.

The Level Crossing F5c ** A traverse of the slab following the distinct break at half height, start up "Rack and pin" then follow break to finish at "Ivor the Engine". 7 bolts + twin bolt lower-off. 27/1/08 Josie Ball.

'Those who climb clearly marked projects are the kind of people who would steal the chocolate bar from a kids lunch box - selfish tossers, who owe the bolt fund cash' **- F5b/c - 4 bolts + twin Bolt lower-off FA C Parkin 2.8.1986 re-equipped Feb 2008.
A not so new route, soloed in August 1986 at the same time as Above The Line, but never claimed at the time. The groove "nich" route 50m right of Polar Express.

Choo Choo F5a/5b Arete and groove right of last route 4 bolts + twin bolt lower off. 28/2/08 Josie Ball. One of the final jugs is very loose & the whole piece lifts vertically about half an inch. Be warned. Not using it makes the route a grade or two harder but safer.

Hogwarts Express F5c? Climbs the stepped corner 55m of "Gordon" crux at top josie moved left at top due to lack of reach so not sure of the grade for direct. 3 bolts + twin bolt lower-off. 27/1/08 Josie Ball .

The Railway Children * F5c/6a ( did route at last about 5c for tall 6foot plus harder for short , with start and finish being much more difficult , must have been 6a+ for josie at her height! ) Climbs bouldery wall to good jug then right onto neat wall. 5 bolts + twin lower-off. 15/2/08 Josie Ball.( grade was difficult due to josies height and LONG reach at top)

In Loving Memory * F6b Climbs the line to the right of last route 5 bolts + twin bolt lower off.Difficult to grade due to Josies height. 14/4/08 Josie Ball.



 johnnorman 08 Apr 2010
In reply to IainRUK:

Yes it is.
The solutution is to strip Dali`s hole so that very visible activity goes elsewhere.
OP Jon Ratcliffe 08 Apr 2010
In reply to davidwright: david, I am not going to get into a point to point argument with you, that is not why I originally posted, you seem to miss the basic message of my post. So I will reiterate.

It is this simple: PLEASE do not congregate in groups at Dali's especially on bank holidays and weekends when there are more tourists and families in the quarries, you presence at the crag could encourage non climbers over the fences and into potentially dangerous environments, something which First Hydro have a responsibility to prevent. 22 people is too many and will worsen an already sensitive access issue. That is why First Hydro put up the big fence and barbed wire at Dali's specifically and nowhere else (so far) and why security guards have, and are still asking people to leave this area.

I suggested other venues and the only source of info, apart from the old guide, the wiki. I am sorry if this isn't good enough but I am simply trying to help prevent matters getting worse by highlighting the access issue, which could affect all who climb in the quarries. With respect, where else you go isn't my problem.

Stop being so critical of people who are simply trying to help you, get with the program and for the time being please stay away from Dalis especially at busy times until the issue is resolved, spread the word and say thank you for bringing it to light if you weren't already aware of it.

In my opinion a definitive statement on this issue from the BMC would help, preferably submitted to UKC as news, maybe then I can just go back to craggin without trying to be a self appointed access officer. Happy climbing all, off to get my head out of my arse....oh, it's already out!!

 Sl@te Head 08 Apr 2010
OP Jon Ratcliffe 08 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:
New slate guide sample pages, including sidings, not definitive but should help.
Cheers
Jon Ratcliffe


http://www.groundupclimbing.com/topocat1.asp?pdfcategoryid=3
 Banned User 77 08 Apr 2010
In reply to johnnorman: All you are doing is shifting the problem to another area within the quarry, a very short term solution. I think its pretty obvious that FHC do not want masses of climbers which are attracted to the low grade sport routes.

Establishing another area elsewhere must surely be a priority here.
 Sl@te Head 08 Apr 2010
In reply to IainRUK:
> > Establishing another area elsewhere must surely be a priority here.

Like this....
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crag.php?id=9237.

Unless it's roadside most climbers won't make the effort even if it's only a 10 min walk in!
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 08 Apr 2010
In reply to Sl@te Head:

Dali's isn't roadside, in fact it's c10 a min walk!


Chris
 Banned User 77 08 Apr 2010
In reply to Sl@te Head: A bit lower I reckon, more 4's, 5's then the 6a's +.

But yes, something like that, and it needs properly advertising, even free downloadable mini guides. Really push the alternatives.

Many climbers are inherently rebellious, say don't go and they'll go. Carrot over the stick approach will work better I think.
 Tom Last 08 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:

Blimey, if that Colossus chapter is anything to go by, the slate guide looks amazing.
 Banned User 77 08 Apr 2010
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> (In reply to ian Ll-J)
>
> Dali's isn't roadside, in fact it's c10 a min walk!
>
>
> Chris

Where are you walking from?? Llanberis!

 Sl@te Head 09 Apr 2010
 Sl@te Head 09 Apr 2010
In reply to IainRUK:

Ground Up have promised a PDF download for all the new additions at the Upper Tier of Anglers Zawn, Benllech. Though clearly for all the right reasons they are prioritising the Slate guide at the moment.

I'm all for developing alternative areas to Dali's, though it's very time consuming and expensive. This type of development needs to be supported financially by the BMC / Sports Council etc. with access sorted in advance.
I've spent a lot of time, energy and money developing other areas in the quarry , mainly higher up in Australia - many of these routes are well worth the extra 10 minutes of walking...but many are to lazy to find out for themselves.
 jkarran 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Joss:

> I say debolt it.

It should have been done years ago. It's a disgrace and there's simply no excuse. People have been warning for years it'd cause access issues but did they listen, no, they kept on squeezing in more crap routes on more crappy spinning bolts.

jk
 Banned User 77 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Sl@te Head: I'm not sure its laziness or just lack of familiarity. I know the quarries fairly well from running the inclines, but could only actually name 2 or 3 of the actual areas.

Wiki's great, but unless you already know the quarries at some level I'm not sure it's that handy. Everyone knows where Dali's is, being on the main byway, knows the main climbs already there, and could easily work out the lines. It was just convenient on so many levels, hence its popularity.

I've not actually done any routes in the quarries, arranged to go the wall Wednesday, when it was glorious, so should have headed up. We're climb and run a fair bit with a young local (Cal), so he's going to be our guide.
 NickD 09 Apr 2010
Perhaps the BMC could buy Dali's, then the FHC won't need to worry about their liability.
 Michael Ryan 09 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:

language please david...

Your post without the swearing

Right. I can actually use html I know how simple it would be to turn that wiki into something useable if you took the time to think about it and had enough coding skill to create a clickable jpeg. I didn't use the wiki to find dali's hole you can't the information isn't there as it isn't for the sidings. I found it via word of mouth. The development was well publicised in the climbing press and I found a copy of the old (mid 80's) Llamberis guide to actually tell me where Dalis hole was.


From a 5-10 minute search knowing the information was there to find I found that much and a picture of a quarry known as austrailia which contains it. However there is no information on that site to tell me if this is above dalis hole or if I need to contact Quantas to get there.

The changes needed are minor but they do need to be done by whoever designed the site and they do need somebody who knows an html tag from a hole in the ground.

BTW in a decent site desgin you can print without using your own clip board. That wiki looks like somebodies GCSE IT project and it didn't get an A*...
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: and my reply

this is a shame David, I've just decided to check out Bis Mon Cul - the direct start to Looning the Tube E1,

To quote

Superb direct start to 'Looning The Tube'.
Access lower Australia via 'The Tunnel of Love', ( situated at the foot of the rock face at the level above Dali's hole - known as 'Dali's Wall'). Scramble up the scree
below the huge, easy-angled ramp.
Make a move leftwards past a big block to a bolt belay and stance.
Now climb the slab below Looning The Tube passing 3 B.R'S. At the 2nd bolt the slab steepens and thin moves below and after the 3rd bolt (crux) leads one the
foot of the 'Looning Crack'. Protect using the metal chain, Friend 2 1/2 and original bolt.
This is a superb 25 metres sustained pitch which now very much supercedes the original route without losing any of its character.
F.A. Jim Kelly / John Redhead 27/03/2010.

So this tells me I need to get over towards Dali's and head for the hole into Australia

Using my internal compass and the last picture in this;
http://www.groundupclimbing.com/upload/members/LooningtheTubetopo3.pdf

I will aim for the hole on the left rather than the ones on the right.

The info is there if people are willing to search. At the end of the day, it is a new route website not a guidebook.
 NickD 09 Apr 2010
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:
> The info is there if people are willing to search. At the end of the day, it is a new route website not a guidebook.

Quite right. From the home damn page: "Again like its sister sites the Gogarth , North Wales Limestone, Welsh Winter Climbs , Tremadog and Trevor Area (Clwyd) Wiki's this site has been set up to provide up to date information on the exsisting routes."

The new guide isn't far away (afaik all but one section is done). As the taster pages show, there are a huge number of new routes in the lower grades in all areas of the quarries. The new guide should tempt people away from Dali's but for now we need an armed guard.
 davidwright 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to johnnorman)
> [...]
>
Say you have a Uni group. Who can really blame them going to a place like Dali's Hole sport climbs. Short routes, well protected routes, good anchors, easy access. It's dodgy in the hills.
>

It isn't that its dodgy in the hills. Personally I would rather be climbing in the welsh hills than on a collapsing slag heap. However when it starts clearing on a welsh morning having been raining hard for the previous 24 hours the only thing that will be climbable in an hour is the slate. Then a bunch of F5's can provide an acceptable alternative to trying to climb up a waterfall in cwm Idwal for a uni group.

Personally I didn't think creating these routes was a good idea in the first place. However if they are there I will take people to climb on them if the alternative is the Beacon or an afternoon in pete's eats.
 davidwright 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to chummer)
>
> language please david...
>
> Your post without the swearing
>
> Right. I can actually use html I know how simple it would be to turn that wiki into something useable if you took the time to think about it and had enough coding skill to create a clickable jpeg. I didn't use the wiki to find dali's hole you can't the information isn't there as it isn't for the sidings. I found it via word of mouth. The development was well publicised in the climbing press and I found a copy of the old (mid 80's) Llamberis guide to actually tell me where Dalis hole was.
>
>
> From a 5-10 minute search knowing the information was there to find I found that much and a picture of a quarry known as austrailia which contains it. However there is no information on that site to tell me if this is above dalis hole or if I need to contact Quantas to get there.
>
> The changes needed are minor but they do need to be done by whoever designed the site and they do need somebody who knows an html tag from a hole in the ground.
>
> BTW in a decent site desgin you can print without using your own clip board. That wiki looks like somebodies GCSE IT project and it didn't get an A*...

Please replace the HTML tags they were there to make a point to the condisending....
 Michael Ryan 09 Apr 2010
In reply to davidwright:

Yes that is what I meant. A great place to go if the weather is dodgy.

It would be sad to debolt anything.

I'm sure there will be a solution.

Anyway this is all great publicity and marketing for the new slate guidebook.

Sample pages here: http://www.groundupclimbing.com/newsitem.asp?nsid=247
 NickD 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> Anyway this is all great publicity and marketing for the new slate guidebook.
>
> Sample pages here: http://www.groundupclimbing.com/newsitem.asp?nsid=247

Not so great if First Hydro ban climbing in the quarries.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I've got;

the Paul Williams Llanberis guidebook
the black slate book
2 x A5 slate book

Do they not know how important and overdue this new book is to me?

I've had to buy the history of slate mining to minimise my slate literature DT's.

Bally get a move on I say!
 Michael Ryan 09 Apr 2010
In reply to NickD:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
> Not so great if First Hydro ban climbing in the quarries.

I'm sure the locals, Ground Up and the BMC are on the case if there is a real problem.
 Tom Last 09 Apr 2010
In reply to davidwright:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)

> Personally I didn't think creating these routes was a good idea in the first place. However if they are there I will take people to climb on them if the alternative is the Beacon or an afternoon in pete's eats.

Really, even after all that's been discussed regarding potential loss of access to the rest of the quarries? Even after people have pointed out that there are much better, less antagonistic routes to climb nearby?

Isn't that just bloodymindedness?
 Banned User 77 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Southern Man: From the OP..."Please please please follow the access advice of no more than 10 climbers in Dali's hole at a time and preferably avoid it all together on bank holidays and weekends. "

Has that advice now changed...
OP Jon Ratcliffe 09 Apr 2010
In reply to davidwright: You really do seem to miss the point, I wish you would read the original thread post again.

The alternative to Pete's or The Beacon is The Sidings (and other areas) we've been harping on about and supplied sample pages to. The idea being to highlight and help with the access issue at Dali's.

You seem to forget that the wiki is a voluntary thing, I'm really very sorry you have such a problem with it's amateurism. How about this, if I supply you with all the information that you require will you invest some of your time to helping make it a better site as you sound like you know what you're doing? I am sure such help would be most welcome. Despite my slightly sarcastic tone I am being truly serious. Donate some of your time and energy as others have and are doing, to make it better, we would value your input,maybe then we could gain that GCSE grade A*!. If you don't want to that's fair enough, but in which case though, please wind your neck in, take that chip off your shoulder, we're only trying to help, and you I am afraid, aren't.
Cheers
Jon
OP Jon Ratcliffe 09 Apr 2010
In reply to IainRUK: No so far as I know Iain, but smaller groups have been asked to leave by security. It is simply an unofficial guideline as things where getting out of hand. There is still no advice on the BMC website for Dali's and I'm not sure how Elfyn's (N.Wales access and consevation officer) getting on with his dealing with first hydro, hopefully he'll let folk know or at least offer some guidance soon. If people really care about access to the quarries they should follow the advice you quoted. It is as simple as that.
 Tom Last 09 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:
> (In reply to davidwright) You really do seem to miss the point, I wish you would read the original thread post again.
>
> The alternative to Pete's or The Beacon is The Sidings (and other areas)

There's even easy bolted routes in Bus Stop now for the truly lazy.
 Ian McNeill 09 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:

its only a crummy loose dire hole ... why worry about it ???


If its a problem chop the bolts ... deter those folks from using it ... If folks want easy climbing try any of the other single pitch crags in north wales there are plenty of them.

The Rhinogs have three peak district's worth ... and the scenery s fantastic and the html code is clean in Harlech :-D
 galpinos 09 Apr 2010
In reply to davidwright:

> It isn't that its dodgy in the hills. Personally I would rather be climbing in the welsh hills than on a collapsing slag heap. However when it starts clearing on a welsh morning having been raining hard for the previous 24 hours the only thing that will be climbable in an hour is the slate. Then a bunch of F5's can provide an acceptable alternative to trying to climb up a waterfall in cwm Idwal for a uni group.
>
> Personally I didn't think creating these routes was a good idea in the first place. However if they are there I will take people to climb on them if the alternative is the Beacon or an afternoon in pete's eats.

So you'd willfully risk loosing access for everyone to all the slate quarries as you can't be ar**d to follow the rather simple guidlines on numbers of people at the crag or find out about any other areas where you can entertain your uni groups. Do you flaunt bird bans and other access restrictions as well?
 Tom Last 09 Apr 2010
In reply to IainRUK:

I don't suppose so, but not everyone is going to know or care about these restrictions - so there will probably continue to be a number of groups over the 10 person limit who continue to climb at Dali's Hole.

Since anyone who is engaging in this debate is clearly aware of the situation and the whereabouts of reasonable alternatives, then they could take their groups elsewhere and help to alleviate some of the pressure, regardless of whether they are compelled to do so. To do anything else just seems a bit churlish tbh.

Besides, there might already be 10+ people there once you arrive, so that even if you are a small and considerate group, you are still compounding the issue.
 Sl@te Head 09 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:

I guess if climbers are not willing to listen to this advice re Access and No's at Dali's; the Hangers and Lower offs should be temporarily removed (with the view of replacing them once the guidebook is published).

I would quite happily meet up with a few like minded climbers one evening next week - especially if it's been a problem at the weekend.
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:

Was this info on the Slate Wiki? Have been eyeing this route opportunity for a couple of months now, shame I've been beaten to it

 Michael Ryan 09 Apr 2010
In reply to The Green Giant:

When they building a via ferrata in the slate quarries?


One at How Stean Gorge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gs5xvCuSA24&feature=player_embedded

Honnister of course
youtube.com/watch?v=IjprcBxNX6A&
In reply to The Green Giant: Yep, slate wiki.

Looks nice and I always pondered dropping down from looning to see if there was potential but in my day everyone knew Rognon climbers and ilk on that level were smelly and desperate for attention so never bothered.

Missed my moment of glory!

 johnnorman 09 Apr 2010
In reply to galpinos:
> (In reply to davidwright)
>
> [...]
>
> So you'd willfully risk loosing access for everyone to all the slate quarries as you can't be ar**d to follow the rather simple guidlines on numbers of people at the crag or find out about any other areas where you can entertain your uni groups. Do you flaunt bird bans and other access restrictions as well?



This is exactly why Dali`s should be stripped. Loosing access to the quarries would quite simply be a disaster. I have climbed there myself(before the access issue) and to be honest the routes are pretty awful, whilst i completely understand that some people like and want this type of climbing, we simply can not jeopardize the rest of the quarries because of them.
 Elfyn Jones 09 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:
So - Dali's Hole the debate goes on, and what are we (the BMC) doing about it? Or more to the point what can we do about it?
As I've stated in a previous post, the access situation at Dali's has not changed since last summer. First Hydro never have and still do not allow climbing anywhere at Dinorwig Slate qauaries. Officially they are reluctant to meet with us other than to re-iterate this fact.
Unoffically they know and (probably accept) that we climb all over the quarry. They have genuine concerns regarding liability, they have had legal advice that they should remove all fixed climbing equipment in the quarry and on their land, they have even considered carying out works to render the faces unclimable, and have been advised by their solicitors to apply for injunctions to prevent climbing information being published.
However the local managment really do not want to do this, and what they want is for us as climbers to be a bit more discreet and not be seen to be blatantly climbing in highly visible and contentious locations such as Dali's Hole.

Their real concern is that joe public and their kids see climbers at Dali's Hole and try to follow climbers in to the quarries. They really are not too concerned about climbers injuring themselves - they are aware that it is highly unlikley that an adult climber willingly participating in a risky sport would try to sue them in the event of an incident/accident. However if any member of the "public" gets injured, especially a child, then the chances are that they would be prosecuted for not having an effective barrier to prevent access, as required by the Mines & Quarries Act. At Dali's Hole the situation has been that groups of climbers were attracting attention from the public who were then also crossing the fence and were a real concern for First Hydro. Hence the decision to errect a new, higher fence. The site is regulary patrolled, as it is a major power station, with asociated security issues (inc. terrorism threats). If the guards see climbers at Dali's they will be instructed to leave. The occasional individual climbing here is unlikley to create a major problem, but as previously stated many times, they really do object to large groups gathering here, especially novice groups who might not be aware of the inherent risks of the site. Slate is not and never has been a "safe" sports venue, and anyone who goes there expecting a climbing wall type clip-up are very mistaken. Slate is not a good medium for bolts, and many of the bolts on Dali's are loose, and loose blocks and debris regularly fall off here.
So the advice form the BMC is the same as it has been for the last few months and is on the BMC RAD, that is avoid Dali's Hole with groups and if you do climb there expect that you'll be asked to leave if seen by security guards.
An increase in incidents here will lead to more attention elsewhere and probably more security and higher fences.
As an organisation we are very limited by what we can do here in the short term -ultimately First Hydro own the site, and they have both the authority and the means to prevent access to the quarry, but thanks to negotiations are thankfully relucant to do this, but, and a big but, they really do object to climbers using Dali's Hole and this is something that will ultimately annoy them and make them take greater measures to prevent climbing at other venues in the quarry.
Individuals and groups have to make their own decisions on whether to climb here or not, BMC has no authority or power over the site or any individual, but if you do climb here then your actions will contribiute to the likley enforecment of a climbing ban over the whole site.

Elfyn Jones
A&C Officer Wales (who is on holiday today!)
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:

Ah well, least we didn't have to pay for the bolt! Every cloud has a silver lining...
OP Jon Ratcliffe 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales: Thank you Elfyn for taking the time to reply, you have summed it all up nice and comprehensively, lets hope people spread the word and take heed. Your input here on this issue is greatly appreciated, enjoy your hols!
Thank again
Jon
 Michael Ryan 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales:

How about a voluntary weekend/bank holiday restriction Elfyn, with a sign at the parking at the rock face.

Climbers proactively attempting to reduce the crowds at busy periods.

I suppose Simon's guidebook will market alternatives to Dali's.
In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales:

Cheers for your reply,

Is it not possible for either First Hydro and/or the BMC to put up signs, explaining exactly what you have just said. At the Fence, Ab points and the path round the back? Perhaps saying 'Do not cross this line with out correct PPE' Or something that does not imply that FH are allowing climbers but says you must have the correct equipment to pass into Dali's.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: What about a prominant news item on the front of UKC for those that do not partake in the forums (as comments seem to suggest people are not aware of the BMC RAD, the logbook comment, the forum discussion and the signposts around Dali etc).

 Coel Hellier 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales:

> Individuals and groups have to make their own decisions on whether to climb here or not,
> BMC has no authority or power over the site or any individual ...

Presumably the BMC could decide on and announce a policy of no bolts in Dali's Hole?

(Afterall, the BMC has bolting policies about plenty of other crags that it also doesn't own.)

 Coel Hellier 09 Apr 2010
In reply to The Green Giant:

> Or something that does not imply that FH are allowing climbers but says you must have the
> correct equipment to pass into Dali's.

Surely anything that says you must have correct equipment to cross does indeed imply that they're allowing climbing by those with the correct equipment.
 jkarran 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Elyfn:

Not sure where your message went but if FH are as you suggest (and as is obvious) so twitchy about access to Dali's the one sensible thing can be done is to chop it. Remove the attraction and nip the problem in the bud while we still can. Asking people to be sensitive clearly isn't going to work especially if the guards are no longer tolerating small teams.

A few crap routes is really no loss in the grand scheme of things if it maintains the fragile truce we appear to be stuck with.

jk
 Reach>Talent 09 Apr 2010
In reply to The Green Giant:
The problems with a PPE sign are that...

- It implies that climbing is permitted which is in breach of the Quarries act as far as I'm aware.

- If you enter an industrial site that requires you to wear PPE you would normally have to provide evidence that you have been trained in its correct use. Fancy getting the guards to inspect your helmet for a CE mark and an inspection log?

- What is suitable equipment? Jonny Dawes could turn up in a giant chicken suit wearing wellies and solo a lot of the routes with a better margin of safety than I could achieve with a full rack of gear and a lorry load of bouldering mats.

As soon as you permit climbing to occur you open a huge great can of worms.
 Tom Last 09 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:

No matter how much this issue is publicised on here, there are still plenty of climbers who don't use these forums and who may be unaware of the issue at hand.

It also seems there are climbers who despite being aware of the situation, will continue to use the site regardless.

Given then that First Hydro have already been advised to take the extreme and permanent measures outlined by Elfyn above, it all sounds very precarious.

Put it this way - if access to the whole quarries is lost, no-one will give a t*ss about Dali's any more and we can all lament the passing of Colossus, The Dervish, Rainbow Slab etc with the benefit of hindsight.

Hopefully someone will get out there, do the deed and strip the bolts while it's not too late.
 Joss 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales:
> (In reply to chummer)
> BMC has no authority or power over the site or any individual, but if you do climb here then your actions will contribiute to the likely enforcement of a climbing ban over the whole site.
> Elfyn Jones
> A&C Officer Wales (who is on holiday today!)

Exactly, so chop the bolts.. or ask Colin Goodey to remove his??

Losing access to the rest of the quarries would be disastruous. The quarries played an important and central part in the history of Welsh Climbing. Losing access to such important areas would be an absolute travesty, especially if it was all down to climbers inflaming the situation at Dalis Hole by bending back the wire fences and not being discreet etc.

If Dalis were stripped of bolts it would certainly not be a great loss.
If access to the entire quarries were banned, tht would be a great loss.


 Michael Ryan 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Southern Man:
> (In reply to chummer)
>
> No matter how much this issue is publicised on here, there are still plenty of climbers who don't use these forums and who may be unaware of the issue at hand.


Exactly. You have to use a mix of methods.

• Emails to all clubs on the BMC database contact list.

• News/Newsletters items on all the climbing Web sites and blogs.

* A note on all commercial climbing websites: shops and gear sites

• A note in the three climbing mags

• Very Important: Word of mouth.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to Southern Man)
> [...]
>
>
> Exactly. You have to use a mix of methods.

> * A note on all commercial climbing websites

This mean UKC are going to do something for the newspage/homepage?
 Tom Last 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to Southern Man)
> [...]
>
>
> Exactly. You have to use a mix of methods.
>
> • Emails to all clubs on the BMC database contact list.
>
> • News/Newsletters items on all the climbing Web sites and blogs.
>
> * A note on all commercial climbing websites: shops and gear sites
>
> • A note in the three climbing mags
>
> • Very Important: Word of mouth.

Lets hope so!
In reply to Reach>Talent:

Stop being so picky. I was suggesting that signs may help. As they are on-site people will see them and understand the situation.

Possibly something as simple as:

'Urgent!

Please check this website for access issues:

www.whateversite.co.uk

Until done so, do not access Dali's Hole.'

It means nothing to the average walker, and if they did decide to go to the website they will also understand the dangers of people behind the fence.
 Coel Hellier 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

> Exactly. You have to use a mix of methods.

Given that there are statements on this thread from people saying they'll take groups there regardless of the issues, it may be that no amount of publicity will solve the issue. Bolt chopping might.
 Sl@te Head 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to Southern Man)
> [...]
>
>
> Exactly. You have to use a mix of methods.
>
> • Emails to all clubs on the BMC database contact list.
>
> • News/Newsletters items on all the climbing Web sites and blogs.
>
> * A note on all commercial climbing websites: shops and gear sites
>
> • A note in the three climbing mags
>
> • Very Important: Word of mouth.

As I said earlier (in agreement with many others) the Bolt Hangers should be removed, no other solution will work as quick in the short term. When things settle down ((i.e. when the guide's published they can be replaced)

I could be up there within the hour with a spanner if anyone's keen to help out.

The bolts will be handed over to the climbers who paid for the bolts or the Bolt Fund.

If any one's keen let me know, otherwise I'll be drillin' a new route higher up the quarry tonight!
 Coel Hellier 09 Apr 2010
In reply to The Green Giant:

> Stop being so picky. I was suggesting that signs may help

It's not being picky, any signs on-site would have to have the agreement of FH. Your suggested wording "Please check this website for access issues: Until done so, do not access Dali's Hole" would imply that they *can* access Dali's Hole in accordance with the access info on that website. FH could not be seen (for above legal reasons) to be agreeing to that, and so would remove any such signs.
 kevin stephens 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Mick, why are you so reluctant to condone the removal of the bolts? From reading the thread carefully I can't see a single valid reason for keeping them. With the imminent arrival of the new guide I'm looking forward to a resurgence of all that is best about Welsh slate climbing. Keeping Dali's hole detracts from what slate climbing is about and more important is a major threat to it.

Beginners managed to learn to climb without easy slate climbing in the past, indeed it could be argued that the learning experience of these routes actually does nothing to help begineers progres as climbers.

Chop them as soon as possible before we all suffer

mailshots, signs, word of mouth etc will not deter enough climbers to protect the rest of the slate
 Michael Ryan 09 Apr 2010
In reply to kevin stephens:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> Mick, why are you so reluctant to condone the removal of the bolts? From reading the thread carefully

This is what I wrote on the thread higher up, you may have missed it. "I'm with johnnorman. If activity at this area poses a threat to the access on slate as a whole, the routes should be debolted, sacrificed for the greater good."

Last resort though surely!
 kevin stephens 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to kevin stephens)
> [...]
> Last resort though surely!

After we have lost access through the protratcted information campaigns, "voluntary" limitations of numbers etc?

The place is a tumour, cut it out quickly before it kills the patient
 Sl@te Head 09 Apr 2010
In reply to kevin stephens:

I will be up there at 6:30 this evening and will at least remove the lower offs of as many routes as I can.

If a small team of volunteers could make it up there this evening to help we could remove all the bolts from Dali's....
In reply to Coel Hellier:

Yer ok, I'm struggling to find the right wording, but there must be a way of saying it so that everyone INCLUDING climbers check the website before they go in there.

Perhaps:

'Do not access this area to walk, climb or abseil.

Check this website for more information:

www.abc123.co.uk'

Then have the BMC Logo at the bottom so climbers see it's from the BMC not just FH.
In reply to Sl@te Head:

I would love to join you, but no way of getting there.

Can I ask, if you do remove the lower offs then perhaps put a note at the bottom of the climb pointing out to people that you have, so they realise before they start climbing!
 Sl@te Head 09 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:

Job Done!

Most of the Routes at Dali's have now had their bolt hangers and lower off's removed. I now have a big bag full of Hangers which I will look after / return to the FA's. I hope that one day they can be replaced when access issues are sorted, and when the masses realise that there is more to the Quarry than just Dali's.
 dgp 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Sl@te Head:
And who gave you the right to take this action and do you really think this means that FH will be happy for the masses to move on to climb all over the quarry ?
 Coel Hellier 09 Apr 2010
In reply to dgp:

> And who gave you the right to take this action ...

Lots of people are in favour of it. Who gave anyone permission to place the bolts in the first place? -- no-one.

> and do you really think this means that FH will be happy for the masses to move on to climb all over the quarry ?

Happier, yes, because they'll be less in sight of tourists and keeping a lower profile. See explanation above from the Welsh access rep for why this is relevant.
 Sam W 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Sl@te Head:
Well done, at least as an interim measure this seems the best plan, would be a shame for the routes at Dali's to jeopardise climbing in the rest of the slate quarries
 Pagan 09 Apr 2010
In reply to dgp:

Didn't you read Elfyn Jones' post or are you just being a pain in the arse?

This thread and some of the views being expressed in it beggars belief. It's like Eagle Tor all over again - we're (the climbing community in general that is) showing ourselves to be totally incapable of following a simple instruction from FH who seem to be going out of their way to allow climbing to continue in the quarries. Frankly if we retain access to the remaining areas it's more than we deserve.

The Dali's Hole sheep ought to shut up and be ashamed of themselves for allowing the situation to come to this in the first place.
 Sl@te Head 09 Apr 2010
In reply to dgp:
> (In reply to ian Ll-J)
> And who gave you the right to take this action ....

My Grandparents and Greatgrandparents who worked and even lost their lives quarrying at Dinorwic.

The fact that I'm a local activist who's been climbing and new routing here since the 80's.

Who are you to question my 'sensible' actions?


 johnnorman 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Sl@te Head:


Well said Ian and well done.
 Keith Jones 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Sl@te Head:

Well done Ian, probably the most sensible action.
 Ewan Russell 09 Apr 2010
In reply to Sl@te Head:
what about launching pad? what routes have not been removed.
 Tom Last 10 Apr 2010
In reply to Sl@te Head:

Proper job.
 ark05 10 Apr 2010
nice one, taking um down is defiantly the best solution in current times. signs would either be ignored (cause the current signs say no climbing and are ignored) or would show climbers that it is ok to climb elsewhere in the quarry, which FH don't want people to know. I expect there will be a large number of disappointed dalis hole people this weekend lol, will give them chance to not waste the sunny day.
 Nigel R Lewis 10 Apr 2010
In reply to davidwright:
> ...english 6a .....

Is that the same as UK 6a?? Just making sure as this venue isn't in England.

> 4) when I am looking for a cr@p weather venue for a group I don't want to loose the 2 climbable hours scrambling around on some exposed ledges looking for some climbs ...

Then get professional and do some research. Try going there first without your group and testing your proposed venue.
>

> spend [ more time ] getting that wiki in to a state where it is actually usable ...

Please post your alternative wiki here.

N
 Jamie B 10 Apr 2010
In reply to kevin stephens:

> Beginners managed to learn to climb without easy slate climbing in the past, indeed it could be argued that the learning experience of these routes actually does nothing to help begineers progres as climbers.

I'd go with that; what skills other than improved movement do people actually gain when they pursue an activity that never requires them to place gear or tie any knot other than their tie-in? Easy-grade sport-climbing is a cul-de-sac for many/most of its participants. We are entering the era of the low-committment crag-dabbler; I dont despise this approach but do think we should recognise it.
 JJL 10 Apr 2010
In reply to Sl@te Head:

Well, I just spent an interesting few minutes reading the whole of the thread.

Quite nostalgic - I used to climb up there in the 80s, but haven't really been back since.

On the matter in hand, to me it appears that the situation is fragile, FH have been trying to help and Ian has doen the only thing that stands a real chance of making it less fragile.

Thanks and well done from me.
Removed User 10 Apr 2010
In reply to JJL:
Yes, reading some of the posts on this thread, the direct action by ian LI-J seems to be the only thing that was going to compel some people to go elsewhere. Echo your thanks. And thanks to the OP for bringing it up in the first place.
OP Jon Ratcliffe 10 Apr 2010
In reply to Sl@te Head: Fair play to you Ian for taking the bull by the horns, especially so publicly. I support and commend your actions. No doubt you will come in for some flack from people who don't fully understand the situation. In my opinion this is a good example of climbers taking sensible direct action for the long term benefit of other climbers at a grass routes level. Lets hope things just settle down now.
Cheers
Jon
In reply to chummer:

I kind of want to go and see all the faces of everyone there this week end! Can imagine some of them climb without realising the hangers are gone.
I'm going to go down to Dali's next week and chop the bolts. Does anyone want to come and help me?

Cheers,

Tom
In reply to the cassin ridge: only the sport routes - leave launching pad, lob scouse etc please!
 AndyWigley 10 Apr 2010
In reply to the cassin ridge:

Chopping the bolts will hardly improve things, just leave an unsightly mess.
It would be better to leave them with the hangers removed, and if access issues improve over the next few years, then the routes can be restored.
Whatever certain people on this thread think of their quality, they have clearly given a huge amount of pleasure to a lot of people, and it is arrogant in the extreme to think that you are 'sorting out a problem' by chopping the bolts.

It's a problem because of the fragile access situation, not because the routes exist. The hangers have gone, so the routes are currently unclimbable - leave it at that.
OP Jon Ratcliffe 10 Apr 2010
In reply to the cassin ridge: No need to actually chop the bolts Tom, what Ian has done is enough and will enable the routes to be restored in the future without more damage.
 Mark Reeves Global Crag Moderator 10 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer: hi

was up the quarries today, and despite ian's efforts that I won't share my opinion of here. There was still a family climbing, belaying of a single rotten telegraph pole as an anchor!

In reply to Mark Reeves: but did you say anything?
 dgp 10 Apr 2010
In reply to Sl@te Head: So it's OK for you to carry on bolting in the quarries creating routes to attract even more people is it ?
 Sl@te Head 10 Apr 2010
In reply to dgp:
You've clearly not read this thread and Elfyn's statement thoroughly, the new route I did today was on the Gorbals Level, if you knew where that was you would realise that it's well away from the problem area. Tony from First Hydro is fully aware of my bolting activities as I've chatted with him and had meetings on a number of occasions + he's seen me higher up the quarry.

The idea is to draw people way from the problem hot spots, i.e. those area visible from the patrolled track.

Do you climb in the quarry? Not sure how much understanding you've got of the current situation.


In reply to dgp:
> (In reply to ian Ll-J) So it's OK for you to carry on bolting in the quarries creating routes to attract even more people is it ?

dali's hole is a very good amphitheater and that is where the issue lies with it seated next to the pathway. There is less issue with, for example, Serengeti - the climbers are out of the public eye.

Bolting and new routing up in Australia is much more preferential than at Dali as it has distance away from the public.

I would agree with you if all Ian was bolting was in Dali's Hole but he isn't.
 chrisdavies 10 Apr 2010
In reply to dgp:
> (In reply to ian Ll-J) So it's OK for you to carry on bolting in the quarries creating routes to attract even more people is it ?

It sounds to me that you are just looking for an argument, luckily the climbers who understand the current situation properly, are backing a popular local activist for having the gumption to take it upon himself to de-bolt this area,(for the time being at least). most climbers wouldn`t have the bollocks to do this!
Hopefully this action will reduce the likelyhood of FH clamping down on the entire quarry, if you don`t see that as total logic, then i hope you are not part of the local government! WELL DONE MR IAN, catch you tuesday!
CHRIS DAVIES.
 dgp 10 Apr 2010
In reply to Sl@te Head:
Been climbing and living in N Wales for over 50 years so can claim some knowledge of the scene and yes I have some new routes too. Look the quarries are a fantastic resource with huge potential for Llanberis and it really needs someone with a bit more vision to get this resolved than chopping bolts and now for us all to try to keep a low profile in other parts of the quarry hoping not to be spotted by the patrols and hoping that these other areas don,t also become too popular. We need to raise the stakes to get the people that matter eg FH, the local council, Welsh Asssembly, Welsh tourism,BMC etc to realise that trespassers will not go away and to recognise what a fantastic resource thay have in the quarries for outdoor activities and the benefits that this will bring to the area in terms of tourism, employment and to bring a lot of much needed cash into the area - something your grandparents would approve. Just think what could be achieved here - a national outdoor sports arena - Sport climbing, via ferrata, heritage trails, mountain biking,.
 Enty 10 Apr 2010
In reply to dgp:
> (In reply to ian Ll-J)
> Been climbing and living in N Wales for over 50 years so can claim some knowledge of the scene and yes I have some new routes too. Look the quarries are a fantastic resource with huge potential for Llanberis and it really needs someone with a bit more vision to get this resolved than chopping bolts and now for us all to try to keep a low profile in other parts of the quarry hoping not to be spotted by the patrols and hoping that these other areas don,t also become too popular. We need to raise the stakes to get the people that matter eg FH, the local council, Welsh Asssembly, Welsh tourism,BMC etc to realise that trespassers will not go away and to recognise what a fantastic resource thay have in the quarries for outdoor activities and the benefits that this will bring to the area in terms of tourism, employment and to bring a lot of much needed cash into the area - something your grandparents would approve. Just think what could be achieved here - a national outdoor sports arena - Sport climbing, via ferrata, heritage trails, mountain biking,.

Absolutely! This makes perfect sense.
But that isn't going to happen overnight so what Ian has done must help the situation in the short term.

Enty
OP Jon Ratcliffe 10 Apr 2010
In reply to dgp: We (most local climbers who are active in the quarries) don't want a 'national outdoor sports arena', we just want climbing to be tolerated in the quarries as it is now. No fanfare, but any sensitive access issues dealt with as and when in order to keep it tolerated. Simple. Part of the quarries attraction is that it isn't what you describe it could be.
Also, there's been no 'bolt chopping' simply hangers removed, a small but significant difference.
 jkarran 10 Apr 2010
In reply to Sl@te Head:

Thanks for stripping them Ian, glad to see someone's taken some sensible action. Out of interest, did you struggle? I tried last time this all flared up but gave up after a protracted battle with spinners (the first 3 we tried). We didn't want to chop/flatten them or leave a part stripped mess if they were all that bad (we didn't have time!) so we put right what we could and left it.

jk
 Mark Reeves Global Crag Moderator 10 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:

> Also, there's been no 'bolt chopping' simply hangers removed, a small but significant difference.

Why do a few hangers (Well one) looks hammered over?

Inparticular the lower off to tower of laughter. Hardly a sport route, in fact it was there long before the first easy routes there.
 Sl@te Head 10 Apr 2010
In reply to Mark Reeves:
> (In reply to chummer)
>
> [...]
>
> Why do a few hangers (Well one) looks hammered over?
>
> Inparticular the lower off to tower of laughter. Hardly a sport route, in fact it was there long before the first easy routes there.

A couple of Hangers had been hammered flat against the rock, one on The Emerald Dyke and one on the easy route next to it. The lower off Hanger on Tower of Laughter was missing and the bolt seemed bent.
 Sl@te Head 10 Apr 2010
In reply to jkarran:
> (In reply to ian Ll-J)
>
> Thanks for stripping them Ian, glad to see someone's taken some sensible action. Out of interest, did you struggle? I tried last time this all flared up but gave up after a protracted battle with spinners (the first 3 we tried). We didn't want to chop/flatten them or leave a part stripped mess if they were all that bad (we didn't have time!) so we put right what we could and left it.
>
> jk

I had one spinner which I couldn't remove, the rest was easy....worryingly easy as many of the loer off bolts / hangers were only hand tight or very loose!!!!
 Keith Jones 10 Apr 2010
In reply to Mark Reeves:
Lower off on tower of laughter was missing about 2 weeks ago, also the threads were a bit mangled.
OP Jon Ratcliffe 10 Apr 2010
In reply to Sl@te Head: Worrying that someones been at it on The Tower of Laughter, and the general hamering of bolts as opposed to just hanger removal, this routes and the others of this ilk aren't really part of the agenda, only the new easy sport routes on the main slab. Hmmm.
 smallerrich 13 Apr 2010
In reply to chummer:

Anyone fancy gathering up our burning torches and pitch forks and chasing off potential Dali's Hole climbers? : D

Or considered just blowing the bloody (am I allowed to say that here?) wall up and being done with it?



On a serious note, good effort for letting it be known Jon and congrats to Ian for actually doing something. I only realised the amount of routes in the quarries after doing snakes and ladders and seeing the ridiculous amount of hidden/out-of-sight routes up there!
In reply to smallerrich: Now comeon Rich, that would be far too time consuming, we coul be climbing instead of chasing them away....instead we could lay all sorts of hilarious booby traps (blu-tacked on bolt hangers, vaseline on the crux holds, maybe just a covered pit below some of the routes) THEN install cameras designed to catch close-ups of the faces of any climbers caught up in it?? all readily recorded ready for viewing over a post climb pint???

or would First Hydro not betoo keen on this?? maybe we could get it on TV???
 smallerrich 13 Apr 2010
In reply to dunkymonkey17:
New idea: Post what looks to all but the most cunning of eyes, a crazy old man with a stick and half a bottle of vodka, at the bottom.

Then when potential groups of climbers or families come near, he jumps up screaming incoherent nonsense at them, such as the colour a strawberries not being the same since the invisible people invaded. Whilst waving his stick in the air and spilling vodka. He needs to have a beard as well.

But in fact, he is a BMC volunteer, trained to be hard and ruthless in his job of detering all these quick clip plunder monkeys!!

I volunteer myself for this heroic duty.
In reply to smallerrich: i like this idea very much...shall we take turns???
 smallerrich 13 Apr 2010
In reply to dunkymonkey17:
Yes, but only as long as I get a distinguished grey beard with bits of fish in it.







We should probably stop filling threads with gibberish now....
 Ollie Wragg 14 Apr 2010
In reply to smallerrich:

I'd be keen to take a shift or two on stag.

However, personally i'd go for the more mellow drunk until they touched the rock, then i'd just get really angry and in the process pull out date-rape blow dart shooter and then take them to the depths of the quarries so the local slate dwelling squatters can have their strangely perverted way with them in secret....
 smallerrich 14 Apr 2010
In reply to Ollie Wragg:
I do not acknowledge the above as being part of my crafty plan, especially the bit about date rape. Stop being weird Ollie.

I feel the BMC may also not be keen to allow you to volunteer..
 SAF 17 Apr 2010
Went up to Never never land today and noticed that someone has cut two of the fence panels clean out of the fence around Dali's Hole. Don't know why this has been done, but figure if it was official and first hydro doing it that they would probably have gone through the gate!
 ColinD 19 Apr 2010
In reply to Sl@te Head: Thank you.
Having actually taken my first few steps in rock climbing on Slate in the quarries, they as a whole have good memories for me. Having also explored the darkened depths of other quarries I understand the risks and dangers of what is still an evolving location.

I must admit to being quite amazed at seeing groups in Dali's, like spiders, on what are poor quality routes. If nothing else they were not bolted in the slate styles a little misleading Groups for any activity in quarries and mines must be a challenge for any leader.

Thanks again.

I'd also agree with others, in that whilst an active user of the internet and numerous sites, more does need to be done to highlight access flash points. I only stumbled upon this thread, I don't know what the definitive answer, there isn't one solution... I would however not object to an email, most of us have them, it's fairly easy to issue plain text only access alerts.

JM2PW

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