UKC

Popular venue of Dali's Hole has hangers removed as access worries sky rocket:

An increase in popularity of a very public climbing area in the Llanberis slate quarries has caused friction between climbers and the land owner. Climbers have now removed bolt hangers from the routes to reduce visitor numbers.

"Please, if you're thinking of heading to Dali's, think again of where else you could go..."

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=52872

In reply to UKC News: Good to have a nice venue in a better state.

In reply to manker:
DH was never a 'nice venue' imo. It was however quiet and home to a handful of very good trad routes. Bolting easy routes at a venue with such easy access was always going to make it popular. Shame people could not heed the warnings about potential access issues. Do people think they are better then others?!

In reply to UKC News: Isn't it about time we had some sort of access right, to what is essentially waste ground. SSSIs excluded, obviously. I think the major problem of access, in a lot of cases, is responsibility of the land owner if someone hurts themselves on their land. Other than that I think there would be much less of a problem, litter and parking permitting.

I don't know the answer, I'm not sure the company putting up signs along the lines of "Enter at your own risk" is enough these days to cover themselves.

Maybe some website where you can register and decline all rights to claim for injury should it occur.

In reply to krikoman: It's not really waste ground though, it's part of the power station

In reply to UKC News:

I wonder how many people are thinking 'I told you so' right now? I seem to remember that there was a very vocal minority against the bolting of the quarries, and it does appear that the bolting activity has lead to access trouble.

When I first went to the slate quarries (not that long ago) it was a fairly esoteric venue, but now it is on the list of first-timers to wales above the more traditional mountain venues. It would be a real shame to lose access as the quarries have a very special atmosphere. I hope that this sacrificial lamb has the desired effect.

In reply to Monk:
>

When I lived in the village (about 10 years ago) you could wander all day and not see anyone. I would hate to think that people prefer short easy sports routes over mountain routes but each to their own. In then end getting more people climbing is a good thing. However people have to realise that each and everyone of us has to act responsibly.
The only issue I have had over this bolting was the bolts right in the middle of the crux on mental lentils. haha

In reply to Monk:

Bolting this one particular area has led to access difficulties. That wasn't the sum of the debate though. The re-bolting project has been a pretty big success across the rest of the quarries, and has opened up some great areas with a wider spread of grades. The problem here is that Dali's is just too close to the path, and in the shorter days it hasn't made as much sense to walk further than this wall to do a few short easy routes in the evening.

In reply to pigeonjim:

That was a shame, when a bolt below the slab could have protected the horrid off-balance section.

all sounds wise to me

out of vague interest have bolts on trad routes such as launching pad been removed, or is it just the the sport routes?

In reply to Dr Caterpillar:

I hope not because launching pad has had a bolt in it for over 10 years. The quarries was full of routes with the odd bolt that still needed trad kit too.

In reply to Monk:


I'm not sure how long ago, "not that long ago" means for you but I've been aware of slate since I started climbing at the start of the 1990s. And probably like most others, the first place I went to there was Dali's Hole. Not in my climbing career of 20 years would I call slate esoteric.

In reply to TobyA: I first went about 7 or 8 years ago. Ok, so maybe esoteric isn't the right word, but slate always had an aura. Everyone knew about it, and the hedonistic slate boom, but it definitely wasn't seen as a place for beginners and the routes had a reputation for boldness (E1 4c is not a grade you often come across). The guide was packed full of E grades, and there was very little easier than that. As others have said, you could go up there and there wouldn't be anyone else there. That is definitely no longer the case, and the guide is not even out yet.

When I first went there, I was very struck by Dali's hole and think it is a lovely spot. I haven't actually climbed any of the routes there, but I have wanted to have a go at things like launching pad and holy holy holy since I first saw them. I don't want to lose access to a special place, but if that is what it takes in the short term, so be it.

And NickD - I realise that a lot of the dissent over the bolting was to do with losing the 'sportingly bolted' ethos but there was definitely some noise about the addition of the low grade sport routes.

In reply to krikoman:

I heard that it wasnt leagal to sign off all responsibility, as you could then be done for neglegence, or something ridiculous like that!

In reply to pigeonjim:

I don't think that is the case at all, but you identified why it became a problem "Bolting easy routes at a venue with such easy access was always going to make it popular".

In reply to Monk:

Only British climbers would complain about adding more routes to a venue.

In reply to NickD:

And they would only complain about lines of bolts at that!

However, it does appear that there may have been legitimate concerns in this case.

In reply to UKC News: about time soemone did this! I like your work.
Thanks
Rory

In reply to IainRUK:

More acuratlly it is the ground under which there is a power station. the surface is more or less wasteland

In reply to TobyA:

I have been climbing about as long as you have but I would have regarded slate as off the main stream for virtually all of that time. For most of that time there was nothing worth doing under VS and even at VS and HVS you had to search out worthwhile routes. Really it was regarded as a damp weather option for climbers operating at ~E2 or higher. I wonder if the publication of the new guide will just lead to access problems everywhere.

In reply to MJH:

people thinking they are better than others was a reference to people ignoring warnings about large amounts of people there at one time.

In reply to UKC News:
"First Hydro have a duty as a landowner to stop visitors from falling down huge old quarry faces."
I would suggest that if you turn up unannounced and uninvited, you are not a visitor. Trespasser possibly, but that's another matter.
Has anyone ever experienced an uninvited person successfully suing a landowner?
I think if you turn up with rack and rope, you will struggle to sue anyone for anything if you duff yourself up.
We should really be encouraging these worriers to calm down a bit.

In reply to daWalt:
In the end its their land and under welsh law they can dictate who goes on it at all. The climbing community has to be diplomatic here and do as they ask.

In reply to pigeonjim:
Fully agree. Doesn't invalidate the point tho.

In reply to pigeonjim: I tihnk it was just a combination of ignorance - I know I don't check access restrictions each time I go climbing, and convenience.

In reply to daWalt:

lots and lots and lots of them - it isn't unusual


Their concerns are legitimate.

In reply to pigeonjim:

And i think that the problem is compounded as the land is a quarry which is still classed as a place of work, meaning that H&S law will apply, rather than it just being wasteland.

In reply to Monk:
"land is a quarry which is still classed as a place of work"

As i understand it the quarry is still "active" because to deactivate it would mean returning the land to its natural state (ie hillside). as you can imagine, this would cost a lot of money and is very impractical (as well as destroying a very interesting and historically important landscape).

In reply to IainRUK:

I understand that, but it's not in use as sutch, it just happens to be on their land. It would be a very different matter if there was machinery hurtling around or if climbing actually held up some industrial process. But the fact that there are climbers there probably doesn't make a ha'peth of difference to the running of the plant apart from liability issues.

I'm not suggesting a mass flocking and telling them to stick the access rights, what I am suggesting is some work around to enable what is in effect unused ground, crag, quarries to be able to be used without some fear of liability.

In reply to pigeonjim:


Is it? Why? It didnt do this venue any favours. The quarries appear to have worked much better as an esoteric hideaway.

In reply to pigeonjim: For your information Welsh Law is the same as British law, are you someone who comes here thinking we still live in caves?
Suggest you google the Occupiers liability Act and get some understanding of law before you quote it.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Nice of you Jamie. How dare other people climb on the crags. We should leave them for you.

In reply to $nowdon6:


No but a) im scottish and our law system is very different from england and wales and b) I lived in the beris for years.

In reply to pigeonjim:


That's not what I'm saying; I'm all for everybody that wants to having the opportunity to get something out of climbing. I just dont think that actively seeking to turn the world and his wife onto it is neccessarily a good thing. It certainly leads to some fairly pish easy bolted venues.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

I personally am for the promotion of our sport. For me climbing is about fun and I like people having fun. I know you are anti bolts from previous posts so I will ignore the last sentence but I see where you are coming from with the pishy comment.

In reply to krikoman:

Another, perhaps more useful (?) way to look at this from a legal (and philosophical) perspective is to ask what material difference in objective danger is there between the quarries and any wild Welsh landscape feature?

Are the man-made scree slopes any more dangerous than a natural one?
Are any of the paths inherently more dangerous than Crib Goch, say?

I, obviously can't give any kind of 'definitive' answer, but I know what my gut feeling is, and that is that these 'man-made' places in their inactive and abandoned state should not be approached any differently than a 'wild' mountain or sea-cliff environment. That is, with caution, respect and with a technical knowledge born of experience.

There are no guarantees of 'safety' (whatever that constitutes), but neither are there in a similar 'wild' or 'natural' environment.

To pen it all behind a high fence is to imprison a strange, bleak, wonderful, inspiring and humbling place that is as much a valid part of the experience of North Wales as any other cliff I could mention. Very different, but still valid. And I don't just necessarily mean as a climber, I'm not alone in 'rescuing' a wet day wandering high in the quarries: the place has a sense of scale and space even with almost no visibility... and to watch the wind soundlessly blow cloud _inside_ a building and then peel it all away to reveal the gulf of 'Australia' down below where I stood was nearly the 'moment' of 2009...

But I digress - I must admit to having mixed emotions when I first spied 'tourists' hoping the old fence below the Looning... incline and heading up and over the Stairs of Cirinth Ungol: on the one hand I was pleased that other people could go away thinking "wow", and troubled by what response this would likely induce...

Its way past my bedtime and I'm rambling... I just hope we don't end up loosing the whole lot to barbed wire and beligerent security... and with 'Ground Up' making a beautifully produced purely historical document...

PP.

In reply to krikoman:

This is not how I understand the situation. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The land within the quarries does not fall under the CROW act and as such there is no right to public access. In addition the land owners do not permit climbing but have merely turned a blind eye. They have every right to ask you to leave and to take leagl action to enforece this should they deem it necessary to minimise thier liability. My understanding is that they are less worried bout being sued by climbers but more so by other tourists who may (or thier children may) come to harm though venturing into places where they see climbers. This is the reason for the sensitivity at Dali's Hole

In reply to FrankW: In a nutshell I think. The only thing to add is that First Hydro are reluctant to meet with BMC Reps other than to reiterate that climbing is not allowed in the quarries.

In reply to pigeonjim:


Not true; bolts can create some great climbing experiences at the right locations and I have been happy to clip them.

I do however despair of a demographic who drive to North Wales to climb unremarkable sport routes in a hole in the ground rather than feel the air in the mountains or Gogarth. You may differ, but this is not a version of our game that I could ever be very enthusiatic about promoting.

Describing me or anyone else as "anti-bolt" is a bit simplistic.

In reply to sc2004:
Can you be more specific?
Note the use of the word successfull.

In reply to Monk:
Very true, in sofar as the landowner deems the area to be a place of work.
The H&S at work act is there to protect the public from the actions of employers and industry, not to protect the public from themselves.

In reply to PontiusPirate:

True. Of course, the other (so far unmentioned) group who value access is the mine explorers. Dinorwig is an excellent place to explore, as it has a great mix of tunnels, quarries and artefacts. It would be a shame if the place went the way of most of the Gwydyr mines which are now gated, locked and capped.

In reply to sc2004:


What about uninvited climbers? I suspect the answer is none at all ever, but I may be wrong.

In reply to UKC News:

This and the situation on Foreigner Wall at Llanymanech does not surprise me. There seems to be a magnetic attraction to areas plastered in bolts in the 5+/6a region.

In reply to UKC News:

And that is wrong why exactly? Lot's of people climb in the 5s and low 6's and should be catered for as much as people climbing 6c and above.

In reply to Kid Spatula:


They are... a couple of miles up the Pass is a whole world of high quality sub-F6 climbing.

What's wrong with development like Dali's? For starters the problem with constructing a lemming-magnet in full view of the track and in light of the long-term uneasy access arrangement was obvious from the outset.
jk

In reply to jkarran:

Not bolted though is it?

In reply to Kid Spatula:

I despair, I really do
jk

In reply to Kid Spatula:

Why should they? When Sport climbing first came to this country there where no routes below F7b, Sport climbing was a progression from Trad climbing, now the situation is reversed.
There has never been an ethic that climbing should be accessible to all; it's elitist. I'll never be able to climb Indian Face or Rhapsody and I accept that.

In reply to Serpico:

Quite, learning your mountaineering skills as you learn your climbing skills is still a much better way of doing things. demands for huge numbers of 4's, 5's and low 6's aren't the thin end of the wedge they are the middle of it. An attempt to turn Denorwig into a costa del slag heap was always going to run into access problems if it worked.

In reply to Serpico:

The question is really - why shouldn't they?


Sadly a fairly typical bullsh*t attitude. Whether people like it or not the cat is well and truly out of the bag on this one - the fact that easy bolted routes do exist (and are popular) plus the popularity of climbing walls has ensured this. Why should bolted routes be the preserve of an "elite"? I could understand it if you were arguing on the basis of no bolts full stop...

In reply to MJH:
Why should Indian Face be the preserve of the elite?

In reply to Serpico:


There's different kinds of elitism. The inclusive type and the exclusive type.

The exclusive type breeds arrogance. It forms little clubs that sniggers at others.

The inclusive type is all-embracing. It accepts that some are better than others, that there are hard climbs that only a few can do. But it encourages all abilities and respects all regardless of ability.

Which type are you?

In reply to Serpico:

You can climb 8a from your profile, it's "only" 6c? Why not go have a go?

It's elite because it's trad and dangerous?

In reply to Kid Spatula:

Because ( there are some exceptions) most 5+/low 6 sports climbing in the uk is rubbish compared with rest of Europe). It is just very poor quality ususally on bad rock.There are better things to do.

Dali's hole - 2 hours and it's ticked.

Do not get me wrong I love my sports climbing but in the UK at that grade - stick to trad or bouldering...it's far superior.

In reply to Serpico: It isn't in the way you are using elitism. Indian Face is the preserve of the elite only because it is a hard climb.

On the other hand you appear to be arguing that only hard climbs should be bolted, which is not the same thing.

In reply to neilh: That isn't a good enough reason not to bolt things in the lower grades. Dali's hole is a specific access problem so not a good example.

Low grade sports climbing is partly rubbish in the UK because we don't have much of it. Quite rightly we don't have the same ethos/history of bolting, but that doesn't mean we should fall for this macho bull about only bolts for higher end stuff.

I agree with you that trad and bouldering are more fun, but that doesn't mean I don't think there is a place for lower grade sport in the UK.

In reply to UKC News: Not having been to Dali's, would these new bolted lines have been possible to climb as trad routes?

In reply to MJH:
No, I'm arguing that there is no 'should' ie; no automatic right of access to any grade of route, the comment was made that people who climb grade x 'should' be catered for as much as people who climb grade y.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

You obviously didn't read to the end of my post.

In reply to Paul R: reply to self after seeing the topo.. is yes. What a strange decision to bolt this wall.

In reply to Paul R: the flakes you would use to protect yourself are very friable - I wouldn't have trusted any and possibly this is why the 80's ascentionists ignored the area that now has the defunct sport routes.

In reply to MJH:
It is rubbish becuase the quality rock has trad on it.( Pembroke, High Tor, Chee Tor etc etc)

I agree with you there there is a place for low grade sport routes in the UK, but where???In some pokey hole on slate, or some loose limestone quarry.

Please give me some examples in north Wales or Peaks for example where there is quality lower grade sport.LPT or trevor rock?

In reply to Paul R:


Some of them were. Frankly they were poor before and after the bolting/excavation. It'd be an insignificant footnote in the guide if it weren't for the trackside location and a couple of good existing low-grade trad offerings.

jk

In reply to Serpico: Which is clearly nonsense. To my mind you are either in favour of bolting or not (with obvious restrictions as to where it is suitable to bolt routes) - grade shouldn't come into it.

In reply to neilh: Slate is the obvious example. There are a world of lines of varying degrees of difficulty that could be bolted.

Whether slate provides quality routes is subjective - some people like slate routes, others don't.

Obviously I am thinking of rock types (of which there are relatively few) that don't offer much in the way of trad protection.

In reply to Paul R:

If they had been any good we would have lots of arguments on here as to the grades were actually HS 4c or E2 5a. As it was there are bit rubbish so they were left as "bunch of cr@p routes on slab to the right don't bother it isn't worth it" until they were bolted.

In reply to Paul R:
The bolted routes there wouldn't have been that badly protected before hand in comparison to a lot of slate routes. The problems was more that the rock was rubbish. On some of those routes you'd have been able to get in at least 2 bits of gear that would hold bodyweight, but when they pulled you'd end up wearing a lump of slate the size of a desktop PC

In reply to MJH: Wasn't the introduction of the bolt in the uk for use where a route was deemed to dangerous for the perceived difficulty and quality! And thus it had it place within the traditional ethics. Therefore generally and naturally, a bolted route would be above average technicality and difficulty and only the 'elite' could climb on them. There is obviously the exceptions, it appears here is one, where the routes are that shite/bad rock quality that it is a benefit to bolt them.
Surely this is logically and a simple reasoning as to why low grade bolted routes are scarce. I think all climbers apart from a few nobbers believe access for all across all grades is only right but not at the expense of our traditions.

In reply to MJH:

In that case, and in line with the previous posters assertion that f5-f6 climbers should be as well catered for as those that climb harder, there's going to have to be a lot of retrobolting of trad routes to make up the current shortfall.

In reply to jkarran:
It wasn't just that, there are supposed to be some easy bolted lines in bus stop which is even more trackside but they are harder to find when you get there. The slab at dali's is very obvious, the routes were marked up in the european style and they were well advertised both on here and in the climbing press (lots of articles about the slate renaissance). I suspcet bus stop was scheduled for a similar push once fully developed.

In reply to davidwright: I think the whole situation needs looking at if this is whats planned. There is going to be a few shot feet otherwise.

In reply to MJH:


Why is this so self-evidently the case? I wouldn't say I was either blanket 'for' or blanket 'against' bolting. Seems a bit artificially simplistic to me.

Personally I'm happy with the status quo in this country where trad and sport exist side by side, by allowing routes and areas which take trad gear to remain unbolted, and bolting the stuff which isn't practical to climb on trad gear. The side effect of this is, unfortunately, we tend not to have many bolted routes in the F5 to F6a grade range, but I would prefer that then to engineer a situation in which there were equal numbers of routes at every grade in every location in the country because that is what there is 'demand' for.

In reply to Serpico:

Which is why your argument is a strawman in reply to my point. You are conflating two different points - I am not arguing that there should be equal numbers or "as well catered for" etc. I am saying that taking an elitist attitude of the type you are taking is wrong.

As for your point about retro-bolting trad routes that is just plain nonsense. No one is arguing for that.

In reply to MJH:
Go back and read my very first post and the post I was replying to.

In reply to UKC News: The bolts are not the problem !- it's people with opinions like john ratcliff ! " thats rubbish so i dont care" is just the same as "i'm not a climber i'm a power station owner so i dont care if its closed to everyone for ever more !!! (john ratcliff included !!) Lets not pass the blame and argue amongst ourself's, we should all join together to fight these's thing's and bring a stop to this health & safety madness ! it rock, it's million's of years old , and Nobody owns it!! just go climb!

In reply to col-0ut-there: Why single out John? He's highlighted a situation that goes against advice (too many people at Dali's Hole) and highlighted that there s much more opportunity elsewhere in the quarries.

In reply to col-0ut-there:

Hmm. Is that what the land registry says, or are you just being naive?

Serps: far too subtle. I wouldn't bother if I were you (now that IS elitist).

In reply to davidwright:

I doubt it. Dali's was popular even before any advertising, hence why routes and grades were written on the wall, because people had no idea of the grades.

I also think people are being harsh on FHC. It's their land, they own the quarry. They use the quarry. They can go far far far further than they are currently going and no doubt will read these forums.

I've always found them OK to deal with. We've once had a run in with a securtiy guard who said one of our group stopped for a piss too close to the gates, otherwise we've never had issues, and were even allowed some access during the filming because we approached, asked, and abided by their stipulations.

I think its great the quarries are used for leisure. I love the place, but you can understand FHC's concerns.

In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat: i'm not singling out john ,what i'm trying to say which you really didnt get ! ,,,is ,( we )should't be arguing about who can climb there and when, (We should just be able to climb FULL STOP when we like ! john might think it's crap at dali's and i might too but that IS NOT THE POINT ! The guy who own's the quarry think's the whole place is CRAP cuz he's into Tennis !, he dont want ANYONE to climb anywhere in the quarries/have fun! just like and including good old (strong opinion!)john , Who are these people and why do we listen to them ? it's supposed to be a free contry or is that only if you climb above 6a !

In reply to col-0ut-there:
You tell 'em! Twitter your local MP about it. Outrageous.

In reply to col-0ut-there:

For God's sake, can you stop? I don't even know where to begin deconstructing your semi-literate rubbish but it's well known that FH read these forums and drivel like that which you've just posted will not go down well with them - hopefully they'll be unable to take you seriously but you never know.

For the record, FH own the land and the crags, they have real and not unfounded concerns with regard to liability and they're going out of their way to allow climbing to continue in the way it always has i.e quietly and largely out of view of the general public. We're lucky to be able to climb there at all - now please, please shut up before you do some damage (or burst a blood vessel in self-righteous indignation).

In reply to col-0ut-there: It isn't a free country. You are not entitled to walk into someones house without permission. You cannot go into a Dixons and walk out with a laptop without paying. Nor can you just do what you like in the quarries as the land is owned. Upsetting landowners means they can throw a paddy and make sure not just you but everyone is stopped from going on his/her land.

The argument here is if we upset the landowner in one area of their quarried land - he/she might decide to withdraw all the quarry toys.

That has nothing to do with climbing above 6a.

As for not wanting to let us climb in the quarries - just untrue - Ian have had positive discussions about his new routing higher up in the quarries - that includes noisey cleaning, drilling, hammering etc.

In reply to col-0ut-there: I, for one, will do my best not to endanger future access to the quarries. If I'm climbing anywhere in the quarries and asked to leave by a representative of First Hydro I will respect their request.

I would hope you and everyone else will do the same until a suitable agreement between climbers/climbing community and First Hydro is achieved.

In reply to NickD: Well said - in France the goverment e,c,t are on the climber's side !! They probably actually like/and go climbing as apposed to our leader's who are all into tiddly wink's !! the worst bit is we all run round doing exactly what they say !

In reply to col-0ut-there:

'Who are these people and why do we listen to them ? it's supposed to be a free contry or is that only if you climb above 6a'

These people are the people who own that land !

It is a free country what are you on about its not so free that I could rock up and have a party in your back garden! You have to respect them a little more than that !

Is it a free country if you climb 6a I am not to sure so I shall try to keep myself above 6a for the summer and see what the results are !

Dan

In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat i do opoligise! i havent got a degree in spelling nore had elecution lession's either, sorry ! ,,,, But YES i too would also leave the quarrys if ask'd to do so ! but your STILL missing the point ! We shouldn't have too ! John dont like dali's hole and he thinks it's crap , but guess what ,jim,jeff,peter,paul, jess,jen,sarah,claire and sue all do like it and think it great! like i say it some rock - put some warning sign's up and let us get on with it ! we ARE all going to die one day ! lets hope they open the slate up before then !

In reply to Dan Goodwin - Mountain Plan: good point but the slate quarry's are not someone's back Garden are they ! - next it'll be the pass , then ogwen valley ,then the peak district !,,,, we are on the way to being a nation rule'd by none climber's where climbing is banned/not allow'd / finito / to dangerous/ we own it / tuff cookies !!!

In reply to col-0ut-there: I'm not after an apology. You will also note that we can still climb in Dali's. There are some really good routes in my opinion (Holy Holy Holy and Zambesi) but its success has now threatened a big access issue and we need to be careful.

Yes, it would be fantastic if access was not an issue to climbers but this is not the situation right now.

We do not have access to crags due to nesting birds. Would you want someone walk in on you when you are mating? Or to accidentally kill your infant by accidentally kicking it out of its cot?

We do not have access to cliffs due to the MOD doing target practice. How would your mother feel if you were killed by a shell on the way to climb? She'd want answers as to why both you and artillery were allowed together.

We do not have access to some climbing because it is only private land in peoples gardens (this is the same in France around Font so not all climbing is allowed).

I agree H&S makes thinks difficult and the litigation situation that is creeping in from the states but we have to try and do what is possible to give the climbing community the best opportunity to climb.

In reply to Pagan:everyting you say is rubish too ! go and join the tiddly wink's club , and wind ya neck in while your at it !! when FH read your message's they'll think great ,HE'S just gonna lie down and take it ! We Should be outraged , gathered in thousand's and down there protesting ! O (for the record) find out who own's the pass , and the whole of the ogwen then make sure you dont upset them !

In reply to col-0ut-there:

Mr Goodey, you are not helping the situation one little bit.

Are you serious - we should be 'outraged' and 'gathered in thousands and down there protesting' (I've corrected your spelling and grammar for you, there you go) because we can't have large groups in Dali's Hole? Or because a handful of your little routes - which were shit, by the way - have been stripped so we can continue to have access to the rest of the quarries?

Do you honestly hold your own routes in such high regard (let's be honest here, this is what your posts are about) that you'd be prepared to lose access to the rest of the quarries for them? If you don't believe FH have the capacity to do that then carry on the way you are. You are going to make yourself extremely unpopular in the meantime, however.

In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat: good point's but the quarry's are neither of those thing's - if it were nesting bird's i'd leave , if it was someone's back garden i wouldn't go there, But it's not ,it's the slate quarry's and the only reason to fence it off is do gooder's with nothing better to do ! like i say ,i hope nobody own's the ogwen !

In reply to col-0ut-there: But it is someones back garden - First Hydros.

In reply to Pagan: you can correct my spelling all day if that's what your into , ( i find climbing more fun ) but yes the route's where crap and they defo wern't mine ! but you still seem to be struggling with the point i'm trying to make arn't you ! You still want access to the rest of the quarry's but everyone who cant climb above 6a thiks the rest of the quarry's are crap ! who's going to be mr unpopular ? theres a hell of a lot of (easy) climbers out there ! for the record i climb F8b/8c and think you sound very selfish towards new climbers which not what our sport need's ! Free from regulation ! or controlled by opinion ! you choose

In reply to col-0ut-there:

From the other thread on this topic:

- by - Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales ? on - 09 Apr 2010 - www.thebmc.co.uk/

"First Hydro never have and still do not allow climbing anywhere at Dinorwig Slate qauaries. Officially they are reluctant to meet with us other than to re-iterate this fact."

"They have genuine concerns regarding liability, they have had legal advice that they should remove all fixed climbing equipment in the quarry and on their land, they have even considered carying out works to render the faces unclimable, and have been advised by their solicitors to apply for injunctions to prevent climbing information being published."

Chew that over for a while. I'm sure 'gathering in our thousands' will make all the difference once the Rainbow Slab has been blown up.

In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat: yeah mate , i have seen them mowing the grass on sunday's and putting all the power stations washing out on the line ! you'd think with a garden that size he'd employ landscapers not security guards !

In reply to col-0ut-there:


Who are these people you claim have made this comment - I am one of these right now and I can categorically say I've never met you to make this comment and have never made this type of comment in the first place about the rest of the routes in the quarries.

Please can you support this comment with substantive evidence.

In reply to col-0ut-there:

Why do they need security guards?

In reply to UKC News:
Just for another opinon
http://lifeinthevertical.co.uk/blogs/blog/2010/04/13/have-we-shot-ourselves...
I am not sure where I sit on the dali's hole fence!

In reply to Pagan: Read that eveyone ! there going to blow it up , now you cant sit at home blaming every other climber but yourself's,whilst sneaking off to get your owm selfish slate fix ,or gather in the millions and say oi, No !! why not build more wind turbine's and close the power station ! simple !

In reply to The third: sound's painfull , o ,and i wouldn't let them catch you on there fence !! if your still unsure read what Pagan has to say about they have aply'd to make the wall's unclimbable !

In reply to col-0ut-there:

OH DEAR GOD. You clearly have NO F*CKING CLUE what this power station does. Go and f*cking look it up.

In reply to col-0ut-there:


I said no such thing. If you could read, you'd know that.

In reply to The third: Mark makes interesting comments


Why is he not on good terms with quarry owners?


The quarries themselves are not open access - only the paths that wander through are from my understanding. Someone please correct me if wrong.

Maybe the Llanberis scene is different and some think they have the electricity provider by the nads due to a tourist issue. If right, then go for it. If wrong, expect a backlash and vilification from the climbing community when no one can access slate routes.

In reply to col-0ut-there:

OH DEAR GOD. You clearly have NO F*CKING CLUE what this power station does. Go and f*cking look it up.

Does the 'Hydro' bit mean anything to you?

In reply to col-0ut-there: scaremongering is not going to help by the way.

In reply to Pagan: sorry, i thought I said you " put it up" ( the bit about blowing up the face's/removing all the bolt's) i dind't mean to say it was what YOU said i just ment look what YOU had put on the site about making it unclimbable

In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat: yeah look's like it too ! up untill now i knew nothing about making the wall's unclibable,blowing them up and soliciter's e,c,t ,think your right , the best thing we can do is just forget all about it ,look's like they've won already

In reply to Cardi: no i dont ,is it make power ??

In reply to col-0ut-there: Good, pipe down.

In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat: all this open access/paths/relatives that first were here buisness may be right ,i dont really know , but what i cant understand is if people want to go climb somewhere how can that really bother anyone else ? if people want to fall int the quarry then they should also be free to do so ,just like if you want to dive a formular 1 car into a wall at 180mph ,or ride a tea tray at 120 down a sheet of ice on telly or just go to the local offlicenc and buy 4ltr's of vodka and drink it in under 10 min's ,or play conker's in school wiyhout saftey glass's ! the people who don't want us to climb obviously have there reasons but while this 'climbing' may be going on they are probably sat at home watching TV, or at the golf course ,tennis pitch ,football court or where ever , what harm is it possibly doing to them !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????????????????

In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat: GOOD ! ,,, GOOD !!!, i knew it ! your one of them ! the tiddly wink whilst wearing safety goggle's crew ! (hope all the spelling's are all right !

In reply to col-0ut-there:


The thing is that was fine when it was the odd pair of independent adult climbers in Dali's Hole but when it was turned into a easy sport area that dynamic changed. It's one thing for First Hydro to turn a blind eye to people who had made a conscious decision to climb in the quarries, in the understanding that they are an inherently dangerous place, it's quite another when you have families in there picnicing under unstable rock faces and commercial enterprises taking paying clients.

First Hydro have never actually allowed climbing to go on in the quarries, they've just not enforced the prohibition beyond a few token fences and gates. Unfortunately that has now changed and the loss of Dali's Hole is the consequence of that. Frankly if de-bolting Dali's Hole means that tensions over the access situation ease and other areas are not at risk then it's a small price to pay and well worth it.

In reply to col-0ut-there:

Although I'm loathe to get sucked further into this situation, not least because of your continuing incoherence, perhaps a summary is in order.

I am aware that it is an aphorism, but please, please consider the following statement: that freedom confirms a level of responsibility on the free.

I'm am, as it should've been clear from my previous post, partisan on this matter.

I would very much like to see discreet climbing access continue to this place, for a whole host of reasons.

I understand and appreciate First Hydro's position on the matter, but I don't think it would be incorrect to state that they are effectively legally _forced_ into this position because of the frankly bizarre situation whereby a quarry where no quarrying can or will ever occur again is designated as "active".

Of course, the majority of their works are underground, but to "own" a volume of the "inside" of the UK, a company or individual needs to also own the surface (and have quarrying and/or mineral extraction rights). And this, to my understanding, is the origin of the "active" state.

Lets be clear that clumsy handling or beligerence by either side in this situation will most likely result in a poor outcome for _both_ parties. As a result, more carefully and cogently chosen words and arguments would be helpful. As would a review of the legislation here by a suitably competent individual or party. As I have already pointed out, the dangers 'inherent' inside the fenced areas are not logically, conceptually, or objectively different to those found in many entirely natural areas of Wales, i.e. loose rock and scree, large drops, steep slopes etc. A great number of people navigate these similar Welsh environments without issue every year.

Rightly or wrongly, this place is worth more (in the broadest sense) to North Wales than a future as an enormous fenced off scar would suggest.

PP.

In reply to climbingpixie: let's hope so hay , as in sit here and just hope so ! still cant see why they wont move on to everywhere else , you can see people climbing at millstone from mile's all around , now you cant have people/family's/kid's walking up there to see what's going on and slip off , infact i can think of quite a few quarries (most likely private own'd )where the same EXCUSE could be used , if you can be seen climbing there your putting peolpe at risk ! once they start ,,,,

In reply to PontiusPirate: i was toataly up for fighting for the slate , only tonight did i here some people plan to make it unclimbable/remove all bolt's /blow up face's and get soliciters to ban all info on route's/book's e,c,t. it was at that point i realized it's to LATE for protesting and on the other hand siting back doing nothing untill it's too late, like now ! and then saying the best thing to do is just shut up some more and stop with the continuing incoherence ! so far that seem's to working really well !

In reply to col-0ut-there:

You just don't get it, do you?


That hasn't happened - if you read the last thread on this subject, despite being advised to carry out these actions FH have NOT done so. It would seem that they don't want to ban climbing in the quarries (and they never have) but they have liability concerns with regard to the general public. This was never a problem before the development of Dali's Hole as a sport climbing venue (if you can call it that) as there wasn't the volume of people away from the track to tempt walkers etc up into the quarries.

If you think that FH's concerns with regard to liability are unfounded then think again. I know of at least one claim against a landowner arising from an accident on their land which they had no direct involvement in. The case got nowhere but that's not to say that a different incident in different circumstances might not.

Impotently shouting about how direct action is called for is not going to help in the slightest, in fact it will most likely have the opposite effect.

So some rubbish bolted routes get debolted in the hope of protecting access to a major climbing area, which has lots of other bolted routes of a similar grade. Seems sensible, but ultimately who cares, given that there's plenty more where those routes came from? It's yet another storm in a teacup.

In reply to daWalt:

But the H&S laws also require the premises to be safe for anyone on site and the owner can be held liable for any injury, howsoever caused, if they have been negligent. Despite the tiny liklihood of anyone telling the H&S people about an accident, or complaining about the safety of the quarries, I can see why the owners find it easier to officially deny access.

Obviously, I don't think this situation is correct, and I would love to see this become open access land, as many older quarries are.

In reply to Monk: IIRC it also something to do with quarrying regs as well and what you would have to do to change the status from a worked quarry to non-quarry ie massive remediation.

Combined with H&S it all means that as things stand for FH they can not avoid liability if an accident happens.

In reply to Monk: Occupiers Liability

The Occupiers’ Liability Act 1984 sets out the duty of care you owe to people you have not invited or permitted to be on your land, such as trespassers. Normally, you still owe such people some duty of care if:
• You know there is a danger, and know that people may be in (or come into) the vicinity of danger or in either case you have reasonable grounds for believing this to be so
• The risk is one against which you may reasonably be expected to offer some protection.
Where these criteria apply, you have to take reasonable care that people do not suffer injury on your land. You may be able to discharge this duty of care by warning people about a danger (with a notice) but this may not always be enough. For example, some extra precautions may be needed if you believe unsupervised children are likely to use your land (for example very large fences and asking people not to congregate in risk areas which might attract attention from passing public).

The good news for climbers - this duty of care does not apply to risks that adults willingly accept on behalf of themselves or those in their care.

In reply to MJH: Fencing at active quarries
QR99 Reg. 16 places a duty on the quarry operator to ensure that where appropriate, a barrier suitable for the purpose of discouraging trespass is placed around the boundary of the quarry and is properly maintained. Whilst MQA Section 151 will still apply to active quarries, the effect will be that HSE will enforce Reg.16 at active quarries.
A quarry operator may use fencing, signs and other means to delineate the boundary of CROW excepted land. The same issues will apply here as with delineating existing rights of way, and laws of trespass apply on excepted land.

In reply to UKC News:

Update on this issue on BMC news pages :-

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=3624

In summary, we are meeting with First Hydro and local acivists in the next few days, and a lot of work and discussions are underway on this, but at this time not much that can be discussed (or would be helpful at this stage) in an open forum.

Elfyn Jones
BMC Access & Conservation Officer (Wales)

In reply to UKC News:

Hopefully this will encourage people to get out in the mountains instead of dogging their way up a supposed E2/F6a+ or whatever hybrid grade a trad route with bolts gets...

In reply to Wilbur:

Please! Give it a rest.

These threads about Dali's Hole have brought out the worst in climbers pontificating about 'them' the 'others' 'they' and 'groups', and how these 'other' climbers are somehow guilty of climbing at this place.

I see that pathetic attitude all over the place in our climbing community.

How the hell does anyone know the habits of other climbers? And who the hell are you to judge the preferences of other climbers?

Apart from that: let's do a bit of finger pointing in the reverse.

Long has Dali's been a problem. Tightly bolted easy routes in an accessible and visible place, on private land. It's not freakin' rocket science. Look at other areas in the UK where you have easy and moderate bolt routes, they are rammed! Portland and parts of Yorkshire and Peakie limestone.

How long have these routes been there at Dali's? And it's taken how long for local climbers and the BMC to do something about it?

Shame on them.

Just kidding. But you get my point, I'm sure.

This isn't about them, it's about us.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Mick

That is probably one of the most sensible things you have ever said on here. Spot on

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: What should/can we do then ?

In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:What a great World we live in hay !

In reply to Pagan: I know it's not happen'd YET ! but it'll prob be in the pipe line ! you could be right about shouting , and it's too late anyway but you could be wrong !

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales: Thank you for your effort Elfyn. I do hope you have a very productive meeting with FH and the local activists.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I agree...

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales:

Elfyn

I can but hope that the act of climbers finally doing something visible to alleviate the problem may count a little in your favour at the meeting. Good luck; and thank you for the hard work.

J

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: *polite applause*

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I think what's getting people's backs up is the climbers using Dali's Hole are totally oblivious to the problem that they are causing.
If they were they wouldn't be going back week after week in groups of 20+

Enty

In reply to Enty:

Oblivious or arrogant?

I have been amused by the number of people who have said they have done the routes and they were crap so strip them. Presumably they were also part of the problem?

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs: Chris, I've climbed or belayed them all and they were fun to play with. Not the best but certainly not the worst (Had to go to Tonsai for that!).

They certainly don't help the access situation but the popularity suggests they are the types of climbs for some climbers of today and possibly the future (whether you like it or not) and are shown by the proliferation in the other sectors (hopefully with more quality as hinted by local activists).

Just because they do not meet the requirements of the climbing knowalls doesn't mean they should be relegated. After all betamax was far more superior than VHS but we all know where that went.

In reply to UKC News:

A happy, easy, popular, sunny little venue. Shame something couldnt have been worked out.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I'm hoping they are just oblivious (optimistic I know) However if they are just arrogantly ignoring the access issues they need tying to the trees in the hole ready for the next flood.
As one poster has said on another thread "We need catering for!" so god help us.

Enty

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales: Thanks for your work on this Elfyn. I hope the meeting goes well.

In reply to Various (and side-stepping the debate):

Climbers are banned from a lot of decent venues for little reason other than the liability worries of the owners. Fair enough - the law is against them here. There's enough money-grabbing idiots in this world (and ambulance-chasing lawyers) who will happily sue all and sundry if they trip over a paving slab for the landowners to be legitimately worried.

So, can we change this? Is it possible to have a card on you, or sign a bit of paper at the crag, or have a sign at the crag, which plants responsibility for any resulting injury firmly and legally on the climber and away from the landowner?

I'm assuming the BMC have looked at this, anyone know what the result was?

In reply to John_Hat: John,

First Hydro doesn't have an issue with climbers as said by Elfyn earlier and supported by the Occupiers Liability 1984.

The good news for climbers - this duty of care does not apply to risks that adults willingly accept on behalf of themselves or those in their care.

First Hydro are willing to accept this.

In reply to UKC News: Had a phone call late this afternoon from Jim Kelly, informing me of the damage to the fence at Dali's. The older fence by the track has been damaged and 2 panels of the newer fence have been removed. Jim reckoned it happened overnight and that someone took an angle grinder to it.

I went over to check it out and sadly I can confirm the damage. It is easy to jump to conclusions. I'm hoping that some genuine reason exists for the removal of the fence panels and that it has nothing to do with climbers i.e. maybe emergency access was required for some reason. Being realistic however I fear that this may be a mindless act of vandalism, as some form of reaction to recent events.

In reply to Sl@te Head:

Or someone trying to steal the panels to sell for scrap?
That said, its going to be a big job to remove them (either for vandalism or theft)???

Bizarre....

PP.

In reply to PontiusPirate:

The plot thickens....

Two stories are emerging, one that the damage was caused in the early hours, and the second that it was done during the day on Sunday.

Did anyone see any suspicious activity by the fence on Sunday?

Please contact me if you have any information re the damage to the Fence panels at Dali's Hole.

Thanks in advance

Ian

In reply to Sl@te Head:
Ian (and others)
I've already met with First Hydro and spoken to others who have first hand information on this latest development.
Matters are now under control and the meetings I've had with First Hydro over the last couple of days have been as positive as they could have been.

As you know a few of the individuals who are currently most active/most involved with with the quarries are meeting this week, and I'm very hopeful of at least a "workable" solution and way forward. After that meeting I'll produce an update on the BMC website news page and put a post with a link to it here.

For now, there is little merit in endless speculation and debates on an open forum, which might further antagonise the situation and compromise a successful agreement.

Elfyn Jones
BMC Access & Conservation Officer

In reply to Elfyn - A+C Officer For Wales:

Looking forward to the meeting on Wednesday and really do hope that things are indeed moving forward. Thanks for your help so far...

I do however have to question your comment -'things being under control' how can this be so when idiots are vandalising the fence?

Clearly it would help the situation if we knew who caused the damage...

I take your point about posting on here, though I have recently been criticised for not talking to people before taking action, whereas in reality I have, as UKC allows you to reach a wide audience including many of the local activists.

In reply to UKC News: Damage to the two fence panels was already done by saturday early afternoon when we passed to go to Serengeti. They were intacked on late thursday evening when i was coming back from Never Never land.

In reply to Sarah Finney: You can understand why Dalis was so popular. Last night we went to climb the sidings, and if you don't really know the quarries its hard to 1) find the actual level, and 2) work out which route is which from the limited route descriptions.

Wiki's great because it allows quick publication of these new routes, but I do think good photo topos with lines drawn on would massively improve it and help people get to other areas. With Dali's most people know the main trad lines and could easily work back from that to work out the routes.

In the end we worked it out and had a great night climbing 8 routes at the level above ltT and the sidings. The sidings is quite nice low grade routes, especially on the main slab, but you can also see that for families its not ideal at all because of the relatively small ledge. I know Dali's also has a drop but its a considerably bigger base. But then again you can see the argument that such a quarry just isn't suitable for family picnic/kids playing at the base/climbing days. We don't even take the dogs up with us for fear of them chasing a falling rock over a level.

Once the new guide comes out then maybe the masses will spread out through the quarries. Even last night, stunning evening, the section we were at were almost empty. We only saw 2 others.

Saying that, having read quite a bit of the wiki threads last night you can see why the work at Dali's antagonised many people, not just FHC.

Which other areas do people recomend for low grade sport routes (6a+ max really) in the quarry, or well protected trad up to HVS/E1. What are the new routes a bus stop like?

In reply to IainRUK:

Definitely do 'Fools gold' in bus stop if not already done it. Then check out Vivian quarry, and Serengeti.

In reply to IainRUK:

Which other areas do people recomend for low grade sport routes (6a+ max really) in the quarry, or well protected trad up to HVS/E1.

Horse Latitudes is a nice sport route and next to Bella Lugosi's Dead which is a great E1 in the Collosus Area. I think there's a couple of other reasonable sport routes the other side of Bella as well (but I haven't done these).

In reply to metal arms: Not done anything apart from looning the tube area, level above and sidings. Seconded LtT and reckon I could have a shot at that. Cheers for those.

In reply to IainRUK: The two clip ups right of Bela Lugosi are very good, but they are bolted in a fairly sporting fashion. The right hand one is going in the book as E2.

In reply to Simon Panton: How far is the book off...

In reply to IainRUK: Meant to be early summer. Wonder if Dali's will defer release.

In reply to IainRUK: I was also reading the Giggleswick South on line topo this weekend and their they seem to declare crags 'complete' or a similar word.

Does that happen in the quarries? Seems a good idea.

For example, couldn't the local climbers/activists via BMC Cymru or another outlet declare levels of the quarries 'complete', 'climbed out', to encourage development elsewhere and discourage cramming routes into limited areas of rock. For example the sidings slab contains nice routes, but with bolt lines every few metres to put any other lines there would be rather artificial and also dangerous.

Obviously if someone does spot a significantly worthwhile new route, for example a high grade route, then they could ask about that line, but for example cramming another F5 right next to 3 existing F5's, just because it climbs ever so slightly different rock features seems rather strange. It creates that artificial situation you get on climbing walls when you have to be careful not to use features on neighbouring route.

In reply to IainRUK:

Most climbers puttin up routes in the quarries are aware of when an area is `full` or `complete` as you say. it`s also up to the first ascentionist to decide whether there is room or not! not a guidebook!

In reply to chrisdavies: No need for the old !! is there...

I'm not sure I agree with that. Reading the slate wiki there appears to be a few who hold very different views....

In reply to IainRUK: dont panic, the !! didn`t mean i was angry, grrrrrr lol. just like using them! -see.

I havent noticed anything on the wiki that suggests a guidebook should let you know when there is no more room for routes? If you are referring to dali`s, well thats a topic of it`s own, and not one i`m getting into on this forum.

In reply to chrisdavies: to provide the background, apologies for the cross posting of others posting on the wiki, but its just to show what a few (local climbers) think from threads on the wiki re bolting certain crags in the quarries.

"However I am very disappointed that 'cramming' has occured here (dali's)-I felt when I moved on the crag was done but not 'overcooked'. Of course I saw the possibility of these other subsequent lines but I truely felt enoughs enough and moved on"

"Whilst i personally believe that as these people have every right to investing their own money in the bolting, there is a point on any rock face where routes can reach a point of saturation. I personally believe that Dalis hole, looning the tube, railtrack slab, men at work slab and the sidings have all reach that point where the available rock has been climbed."

"The areas uou mentioned are in my opinion worked out"

These are hidden in the discussion threads, which are hard to read, so I just thought that maybe the Yorkshire way, was an interesting and more transparent way of dealing with the matter.

My concerns are almost entirely for non-climbing reasons. Two of the great fell running routes in Britain utilise the quarries. Access through the quarries (using tracks or paths which are 'out of bounds', like the climbing areas) is really important and its quite alarming to read and see things kicking off like they have recently.

I like seeing people use the quarries, when I first moved back in 2006 I was shocked when we ran through one warm June day and saw noone climbing, and have liked seeing them become popular again. But on the other hand you can understand FHC's concerns - well I can anyway.

In reply to chrisdavies:

No, I'd just read the wiki, then by chance, read the giggleswick topo, and it just seemed a good way to quide/'control' development at a sensitive crag. Giggleswick for the conservation status and the quarries due to FHC's concerns.

OK, carry on with the !!'s

In reply to chrisdavies: to add, I guess my main concern is dali's is repeated a level up, so looning area gets loads of routes, then the sidings then..

In many ways I think Dali's was successful, but the main lesson must surely be that FHC do not want big groups/families using the quarries, so further development of loads of low grade routes in a small area, could just repeat the errors and really threaten everyone's access to the quarries.

I think that risk is so great that maybe there should be quite open and clear guidance on further bolting.

In reply to IainRUk

Dont panic matey, things are in hand, keep an eye on the bmc website!!
i think i can say that that situation is unlikely to occur again, lessons have been learnt.