UKC

While going up to malham last evening Adam Ondra was walking back down. Apparantly he's over for a week and camping in malham. Should be interesting to see how he get's on with the Steve Mac super routes.

In reply to Nez: wonder how many 9a's he can tick in a week......

In reply to Nez:


I reckon it would be more interesting to throw him at the Vice. Probably unlikely though.

In reply to Nez:

Really?

In reply to Nez: if he is there, my money is on him not climbing any of mclures routes.

(that could turn out to be a poor prediction from me)

In reply to Nez:

1/10

really?

In reply to philipivan:

Yes, really.

This place is odd at times.

In reply to Tyler:

Only during the hours of daylight.


...and then again at night.

In reply to Adam Lincoln: i did hear a rumor myself to be honest. Not verifying this posting but it doesnt sound unlikely to me....

In reply to Tim Bertenshaw: Has the G-man been able to confirm this?

Andy F

In reply to philipivan: Cant see why not.

In reply to andy farnell: Mr buchanan has just facbooked a photo by mobile of the man himself, technology eh.

In reply to Paul R:

Awesome. I forsee a very long ukc news thread sometime soon

In reply to Paul R:
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs342.ash1/29263_1466972033472_...

Who's the skinny bloke next to Suggy?

In reply to Paul R: aye just seen the photo it is confirmed. Believe he is beneath the Maximum in that gap on the catwalk.

awesome!

Cheers
tim

In reply to Nez:

I'm reliably told he's presently working Overshadow. Should be interesting!

In reply to Nez:

Fantastic! Anyone know if he's ticked anything yet?

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

It is true! About time...

In reply to Nez: Let the crushing commence.

Andy F

In reply to jonny2vests:

Why?

In reply to jonny2vests:

Why?

To see how quickly he could downclimb it. In the rain. At night. In flip flops. When drunk.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell: Great stuff. Good luck to Adam, hope the sun shines and cool breezes flow.

Important facts for our local correspondents to discover: a) is he old enough to get served in the pub? (I had a cracking night there once, we ended up with a bottle of red wine lying down at the top of the crag trying to drunkenly remember whether we were in a clint or a grike...). And b) what sort of tent does the best sport climber in the world have? I bet its a Decathlon pop-up, and just like everyone else he can never work out how to get it back in the bag.

In reply to TobyA: I was wondering if he's had a spell off yet with the Pendle Witches.

In reply to TobyA: Good luck to him, but more so when he goes for his post climb pint

In reply to Nez:

Who? never heard of her

2 redpoints on overshadow but as yet no crush, one on sight attemp at cry freedom, fell off level with the top overhand before the final hard move, this took him 2! attempts to do the move (must be hard), stripped it on the way down. He seems to be made from rubber. good to watch

In reply to griffer boy: Punter, bet he failed on free and even easier

In reply to jonny2vests:

Have you seen what there is by way of cracks on Czech Sandstone? Plenty of Vices and more there!

he probably warmed up on overnite, so the true malham polish as yet has not been experienced

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

For a laugh? Try not to take it too seriously Adam, I was being flippant.

In reply to andy farnell:

Now you're talking!

In reply to griffer boy:

Ondra on Cry Fredom:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/item.html?crag=610&route=Cry+Freedom

In reply to Nez:

I think he's calling off there on the way to Lumbutts Quarry near Todmorden.

Looks like he has stalkers.wonder how many people are going to crags just to see him?

I am amazed that this is not headline news, this guy is awesme.

In reply to neilh: I'd guess they're waiting for him to do a bit more before doing the article?

what's the deal then.. is it raining today? Is he back at Malham? The fact he's here and trying Mclure's routes is definitely news in itself. UKC should set up a BBC sport style live minute by minute report on his efforts!

In reply to mark s:

Well yeh I did today, although its a usual Thursday haunt. Its not often you get to see someone absolutely wollopping hard 8's on sight and being very close to 9a+!

Get him on the grit...

In reply to Misha:
Why? He's on holiday, and clearly wants a world-class challenge. Besides I'm sure he's done enough big bold sandstone back home to warrant trad-wad points.

In reply to Misha:


<<<<tired old cliché alert>>>

In reply to Rich Kirby:

rich, what 8s has he onsighted?...apart from raindogs?
zoolook? GBH? predator? the groove!!??

In reply to ali k:
so i just read on keith's blog that he's done zoolook and overnite O/S.
anything else?

In reply to ali k:

Apparently he onsighted Predator, Austrian Oak, Magnetic Fields, Energy Vampire and then Groove into Free and Easy into Breach yesterday as well as having 3 redpoints on Overshadow!!!!!

He's no punter.....

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Well said Mick

In reply to Kevin Avery:

Has he been to Kilnsey yet?

In reply to Kevin Avery:

WTF! how is that possible?!!
he can't have had any rests between routes/redpoints to fit all that into one day!! super impressive

i've seen him climb out here in Spain many times, onsighting 8b's for a warm-up and redpointing Golpe etc, but until you see or hear about him on routes that you know well it's hard to put it into any kind of context. the boy is incredible...

In reply to ali k:

Ali, as Kev's post. See UKB for further detail.

In reply to Rich Kirby:

f*ck me! máquina! i think i'll give him the predator and energy vampire ticks...but only cos it's him.

looks like he'll be doing everyone's lifetime ticklist in a week!

In reply to Nez: Get him down to Pembroke to crush the classic E8's and 9's!

In reply to Kevin Avery:

Some list as you say - more than a year's work for most of us, and a flippin' gooooood year at that. More significant than Elvis walking back into town I'd say!

Interesting to speculate his game plan. Finish off at Malham today then a rest day(?) before Kilnsey Sun, Mon then possible Snor on Tuesday before flying home?

In reply to Nez:

Harumph! Get him to my local area to climb something with an E in the grade!

In reply to those trying to point Ondra at hard UK trad:

Dont you think it's great than some foreign waddage can see UK climbing as being a bit more than hard E-grades? We also have world-class sports venues with signature testpieces that deserve repeating; it'll also be interesting to see how UK grades stack up against continental ones.

In reply to ali k:
When he did Groove>Free n easy>Breach(late in day) it was pissing down and the big break at top of Breach was goppin wet. Just wiped his hands on pants and nonchalantly made the remaining wet moves to the belay after 50 odd metres of climbing!

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Hmmm nope, can't quite see what you're getting at.

What I want to know is, what's he done on rhyolite?

In reply to Keith Sharples:
>

He is resting today & keen for Overshadow on sat which I'm sure he will do. I doubt he'd bother with Tor - I mean why would you He was interested in Dunne's thing straight up cove? We explained the history and he seemed intrigued.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

I know some of those comments are tongue in cheek but it's pretty amusing that some people genuinely think that a teenager climbing at the current worldwide physical limit of what's acheivable is not impressive enough and he should instead go and tick some E8s.

Ha!

I've been very interested to see how Steve Mac's routes are compared to the international standard because I've a sneaking suspicion he has been a bit modest and perhaps shown caution and undergraded somewhat.

In reply to Rich Kirby:
Forget all this nonsense about what he should and shouldn't be climbing, what's he said about the quality of the climbing he's done?
How does the UK's finest sport crag stack up against the rest of the world?

In reply to Nez:
I agree it is very impressive all this bolt clipping stuff. However I would prefer him to shake the trad climbing world to its core and crush numerous e8-e10/11?. Trad is the british style, long live the king.

In reply to The third:

Wow. Us Brits really are miserable sods.

When Steve McLure climbs these uber-hard routes, everyone is in awe, and people state that it is a shame that the UK is a sportclimbing backwater that none of the international greats will visit to get the 2nd ascents (let's face it - there are very few, if any, UK climbers who would be capable). Then when one of the greats arrive, there are a bunch of whingers moaning that he isn't climbing trad!

In reply to Monk:

To be fair he's only been climbing a few months so is probably unaware that every few years we get strong foreign wads coming over and tearing through the trad grades, but that we've been waiting for decades for someone to come and give our sport test pieces a go.

In reply to Rich Kirby:


Has no one told him about Violent New Breed at Giggleswick? Possibly the world's hardest move on a sport route, and the UK's only other 9a+. It's just 17min drive from Malham... This is the big one, get him on it!

In reply to The third:


this place is truly depressing sometimes.

In reply to Kevin Avery:


Ok forgetting for a minute the level of skill it takes to even make it up these routes, the fact that he can do all this in a day must take such a ridiculous super-human level of stamina, I am in awe.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:


What he said, respect where respect is due, this guy is a legend before he's even left his teenage years for crying out loud.

In reply to robin mueller:


Maybe Adam drives like he climbs, in which case it would be about 12 minutes...

BTW - have you been timing it? That's a bizarrely specific timing!

In reply to Serpico:

No foriegners have 'torn through british trad'. A few have matched current levels, but noone has come over and onsighted E8s.


I am very interested to see how hard he can technically move, i'm even more interested to see how hard he can climb.

In reply to TobyA:

No, it comes from Googlemaps:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=B6480&daddr=...

In reply to Fr Manko: Have you not had internet access for the last couple of years?

Ondra's tick list is very impressive. AFAIK none of the 8b's have been onsighted before. It'd be interesting to know what grade he thinks Cry Freedon is.... World's first 8c?

Andy F

In reply to The third (and the rest):

Adam Ondra is a world class SPORT CLIMBER. Probably the best in the world. As far as I know he has never done a trad route in his life. Why would he start now? Just to please some British armchair critics?

I would hazard a guess that the reason you're all pining for him to do some trad is because you've never done a days sport climbing in your life, so have no concept of how hard this boy is climbing, simply because the reports don't come with an attached E grade.

They are two different disciplines. Just accept it.

As Serpico said, travelling foreign climbers have come over many times and gone home with seriously impressive trad tick lists. But nobody on the sport front for a long long time.

In one day he on-sighted 4 8b's and had several redpoints on a 9a+. Stick that in your grade conversion table and see what it equates to in E numbers! I am pretty sure that if he chose to, and had the right head, Ondra could completely destroy the UK trad scene. He is more than pysically capable. But right now he's pushing the limits of SPORT CLIMBING. Accept it.
Rant over

In reply to Fr Manko:
Honnold's (first) flash of Gaia? no chalk, but he'd seen it in the vid?



What's the difference franco? Bore us with your wisdom.
...but be quick it's almost time for you to be banned again.

In reply to Fr Manko:

Yes they have, get your facts straight. Off the tope of my head, in the last few years we Jorgeson, Honnold and Segal repeat almost every hard route on the grit, those two Australians that stayed for a while and repeated a hat-full of E8s and 9s, Sonnie Trotter made it his mission to repeat Rhapsody, and Lisa Rands headpointed Gaia.

By contrast, the only attention British sport climbing has had is a flying visit by Chris Sharma one wet afternoon.

The fact that Ondra is in Britain for an extended trip purely for sport climbing is brilliant, and I find the snide "but why doesn't he try any real routes" totally pathetic. It's high time Britain's sport climbing (and the efforts of its protagonists) got some attention.

In reply to ali k:


I realise on paper he's regularly onsighting the equivilant of E9. I'm not telling him what he should do, just that i'd be very interested to see if he could convert that to onsighting E9s. There are a few people in the world operating at his sport level, there is noone who has ever onsighted E9, hence i'd quite like to see someone (shama, ondra, Ste Mac etc..) come and onsight one.

I have no doubt there are people physically capable, just that only a few who were 'pyhsically capable' have tried to onsight E9s, and interestingly didn't manage it.

In reply to Alun:
Ah yes, I see. Fr Manko = Franco.

That explains the idiotic comments.

In reply to Alun:

I didn't say 'why doesn't he try any real routes'.

And I think you should get your facts right. None of the americans onsighted E8s or E9s. (E8 flash) I'll forgive you if you don't understand the difference between onsights and headpoint, but repeating grit E9s I would describe as 'tearing it up'.

In reply to Alun:
>

This lad didn't do too bad either:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=49092

Pesky kids.

In reply to Fr Manko:

Wrong. E9 has been onsighted.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:


Care to explain...

In reply to Fr Manko: No.

Andy F

In reply to Alun:
Oh yeah and Nico and Sean from Belgium came over a couple of years and crushed Gogarth's horror shows, how could I forget.

In reply to andy farnell:

Ok, so noone has onsighted E9, apart from your mate's ballpoint of the parthian shot...Or is that E8 now?

In reply to Fr Manko:

LOL you're a card Franco, I'll give you that!

In reply to Alun:


The hardest thing onsighted at gogarth was done my Neil Dickson. I have no doubt that there are foriegners coming over here and climbing as well as our chaps, and maybe that there are also some guys who could climb harder, but this myth that UK climbing is a load of easy rubbish and the europeans could piss all over us at the drop of a hat, they just choose not to, is a saga of biblical proportions.

In reply to Fr Manko:

My mate Dave told me that he once watched a specialist video that featured europeans pissing all over a Brit...


!?!?!

In reply to Alun:

which idiotic comments?

In reply to Clauso:


It all makes sense if you head into the mountains and take the stone tablets.

In reply to:

Wasn't this thread originally about Adam Ondra? Get a life people.

In reply to Alun:

No, that may be the impression created by the TEAM AMERICA coverage in the media, but it's not really true. They did lots of the classic routes of yesteryear in good style, plus two (?) of the more high profile harder routes (one E10 - now E8, and one E11 - but went off route). There are still a good number of hard grit routes that have been waiting years for a repeat - eg. Superstition, merely E8 but resisted the Americans...

But this is beside the point. We all know Ondra would easily waltz up most of these if he had a mind to, and it wouldn't be news to anyone except a few deluded Brits. The point is...

GIGGLESWICK
VIOLENT NEW BREED
GIGGLESWICK
VIOLENT NEW BREED

In reply to Fr Manko:

Please can we keep this thread to rolling coverage of Adam Ondra crushage and related discussion, for those who are actually interested in possibly the hardest route in the UK getting repeated by possibly the hardest sport climber in the world.

Franco, can you take your parochial trad-is-better-than-sport, our-climbers-are-better-than-your-climbers wank to another thread so that the rest of us can ignore it please.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

It is interesting to see the psychological links people make with no evidence between what I say and what they want to hear.


I didn't say he shouldn't be trying sport, as that is what he enjoys, but I did say that it would be interesting to see him try some trad onsighting. In the usual 'sport climbers could crush any trad' mentality, you responded appropriately, but could not single out a single example of a nails European sport climber coming over and pushy trad onsighting up a notch or two. Hence now you collectively respond with insults, nonsense and expulsion of the discussion from the thread.

I would really like to see Ondra have a go on Hubble, its only had a few ascents and it would be good to hear how the grade compares

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Do you think it's going to happen? The weather forecast looks crap for climbing until tuesday.

In reply to Fr Manko:

it's because trad climbing is utterly irrelevant to what is going on. As pointed out further up thread, Ondra is a SPORT climber and he has come here to try our hardest SPORT routes which have been waiting years for repeats.

Personally I'd find it pretty tedious if he spent his time here and his talent wombling up trad routes that aren't really his discipline just to fulfil a willy waving 'what if?' speculation from UKC. A number of foreign wads have come over in recent memory and had a go at various trad testpieces in a variety of styles - did you not get the memo?

He has until Tuesday to tick what took Steve Mac 42 days of effort. Don't you think that is exciting? I do.

In reply to Nez:
ha! Sorry someone told me on facebook I was getting ripped apart on ukc, thought I better re appear!
Just to clear up, huge respect to adam ondra he is a machine. As far as I can tell he is the best climber in the world currently on bolts. However I don't care for bolts, it's a manufactured form of climbing(which has its place in Britan and abroad) but for me is not the real deal(your welcome to disagree with me).
when you say "When Steve McLure climbs these uber-hard routes, everyone is in awe, and people state that it is a shame that the UK is a sportclimbing backwater that none of the international greats will visit to get the 2nd ascents (let's face it - there are very few, if any, UK climbers who would be capable). Then when one of the greats arrive, there are a bunch of whingers moaning that he isn't climbing trad!"
I haven't been calling for him to come over here, doubtless most british climbers don't care less. The sport climb community of britian fair enough, they must be estatic. I hope he rips all your lines to shreds and tells you its piss(or whatever self-amusing varient you fancy)
End of the day I don't connect with sport climbing in a massive way, why would I feel inspired by someone doing sport climbing???
Also I have been climbing for 15 years+ technically but really only in the last 5 took it seriously. Also I have not climbed M14+, but have clipped bolts.

All the best to ondra, The world's best climber! (I bet you would cruise most stuff at gogarth, as a warm up then you could pop down to lpt to do what you really enjoy)

In reply to Fr Manko:

No, but one or two have come very close. Especially considering the fact that these ascents have been on flying visits, its extremely impressive.

In reply to davidbeynon:

I'm eagerly anticipating finding out, though it'd be a shame if he got let down by the British weather, for sure...

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Exactly. Mightily impressive, but it goes to show trad isn't a piece of piss.

If E8 for a F9a cliber is like E1 for an E5 climber (which some on this thread seem intent on believing) then they would not have failed. I know I wouldn't fall off an E1 onsight if my supply of free shoes rested on it.

In reply to Fr Manko:

The difference is, that 9a and E8 are not on the same scale. That is why Ondra onsights 8b+ or whatever it is - that is comparable to your E1/5 analogy. The difference with trad is the danger. An onsight of an E8 or E9 would give him major credit in the UK, but would not matter a jot to people in Europe. Repeating a 9a+ will mean something to euro climbers. As this guy gets his livelihood from those euro climbers, what do you think his incentive would be. Not to mention that failure to onsight the E9 could be severe injury that would wreck his career.

In reply to The third:

A fair enough opinion, but if that is your opinion, why did you even bother to post on this thread? As you know that you are not interested in sport, why click on a thread about a top sport climber?

In reply to Monk:

F8b+ is equivalent to about E8 is it not?

I see your point about how his main goal is to satisfy euro climbers/sponsors, hence why I said I don't expect him to get on the trad. If he's trying sport style E9s (F8b style of climbing with big safe falls) then he wont hurt himself though. Hopefully he'll get inspired though

In reply to Fr Manko: am i the only one who sees something pathetic in the often tabloid-style responses to Franco's posts? the facts (what is written) dont actually matter or get ignored in favour of giving Franco a hard time. sorry to go off-topic but...

In reply to Fr Manko:

Has anyone considered that his main goal may be to enjoy himself doing something he clearly loves?

In reply to robin mueller:

He might just fall about laughing when he sees the crag though!

In reply to ksjs:

It's because the subject of the thread is actually of interest to many people who don't want to see it become another 200+ post epic full of Franco's willy waving. If people are jumping to conclusions about what Franco's agenda is, it's because he's still singing largely the same song and we've heard it all before.

The OP is about something unusual and actually exciting happening RIGHT NOW in UK sport climbing and already some on UKC are whining about how he should be trying X style or Y style and how sport climbing is 'not really climbing'.

It's utterly tedious and not a little bit depressing.

In reply to Fr Manko:


yeh me too, but unfortunately it's not going to happen, is it? The people you quoted as operating at his sport level are the best sport climbers in the world BECAUSE they don't do trad. They don't waste days bumbling around on routes well below their physical level which only require large balls to get up. They don't risk injury (and the months/years out of climbing which would result) for the sake of 10 or 15 metres of rock just to get an E grade for boldness. They push their bodies to the physical limit day in and day out. (And before you jump on the 'trad is best' band wagon and start ripping into me, i'm not denigrating trad climbing; i'm a trad climber first and foremost - see my profile)


like who? who's tried to O/S E9? you mean Ste on that route in Wales, which was wet?


The problem here is that you only have grit routes to base this assumption on, because it's all the foreigners ever do when they come here. These routes by nature are bold, smeary, technical, unpredictable and, yes, technically quite easy! I imagine it would be a different story if Sharma/Ondra/other sport wads were to attempt an O/S of say The Big Issue, or Divided Years (or possibly even Rhapsody). Something steep and relatively well protected. I can't imagine they'd have too many problems with those routes.

Unfortunately I can't see it happening with these guys in the near future so we'll have to wait for another Euro wonder-kid to come along who, conveniently for UKC users, likes UK trad. Maybe we should start harassing those 8 year old's parents and try to get them away from bouldering and sport climbing and more interested in grit or gogarth chop routes...

In reply to ali k:

It's depressing that something so idiotic, as people thinking that these guys could onsight things like rhapsody, is becoming a cliche on ukc. Rhapsody is F8c climbing, before you put the draws in.

The americans tried to onsight parthian shot, and didn't. Steve Maclure tried to onsight an E9, and didn't. Nico Faveress is a total beast, fell off an stiff E6. Nico has climbed a lot in the UK and hasn't onsighted harder than E7.

What's stevie haston tried? He's done a lot of trad and never onsighted E8, despite climbing 9a. Rich Simpson?

Get this silly idea out of your head that euro climbers are a different species.

In reply to Nez:

It didn't exactly take Steve McClure many goes to nail Rhapsody though.......

In reply to plexiglass_nick:
>>
If I could I'd try and see him climbing,it should be a pleasure to see someone at the top of any sport, he might bust a tendon next week and never be that good again. Enjoy it while he's here. Were these people whining that Usain Bolt wasn't running the Wasdale Fell Race when he was tearing up tracks last summer.

In reply to all:

What's happened, we seem to have hit a lull...keep it going fellas, dig deep!

In reply to overdrawnboy:


Was I complaining? Sport climbers must not be able to get it up or something, they seem to have some proper complexes about people talking about other forms of climbing...

In reply to hexcentric:
er ban bolts?

In reply to hexcentric:

I can't be arsed. Franco you know exactly what I meant in my post as you said the exact same thing a few posts up


If you choose to take it up as an argument then that's up to you.

In reply to Nez:

I don't give a pap about anyones opinion in this thread but I would very much like to know what Ondra is doing today. So if anyone knows, please update

In reply to Jay_Kay:

He's having a rest day, so we're told.

In reply to robin mueller:

Cheers!

In reply to Jay_Kay:

the word is he's resting today then likely back to Malham to try Overshadow again tomorrow.

In reply to Fr Manko:


Presumably that's the one that has only ever had one onsight ascent? By a foreigner?? In spite of a lot of attempts by British climbers who onsight a lot harder than E6?

Cheers
Andy

In reply to Andy Cairns:

If 'a lot harder than E6' means E7, then you're right. By the shear volume of good climbers who have failed on it, it probably should be upgraded to E7, but even then, Nico, who should find E10s a walk in the park, fell off it.

In reply to

If anyone mentioning trad cared to read one of the recent interviews Adam has given they would know he has no interest whatsoever in Trad climbing. None.

I also doubt he climbs to appease anyone but himself going by what the lad himself says.

In reply to Fr Manko:

A reasonable point, except that Ondra is climbing a full two grades harder than all the people you mentioned...

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Very true I suppose. But perhaps instead of saying 'ondra would crush everything in the UK', we should say that he could probably equal current limits and then push them a bit further, but he's not going to onsight Rhapsody. Hence why I said i'd be interested to see what he could do.

dear oh dear, another thread lost at sea.

Dudes; climbing is a broad church - let us enjoy the diversity whilst we can. Debates on trad v's headpointing v's sport v's bouldering, v's DWS v's winter, v's mountaineering might be interesting (on a dark winter night after training) but - if I might be so bold to suggest - it isn't the point here.

Ondra is (in all probability) the world's finest sport climber but in this instance here's 'just' a climber over here doing what climbers do, climbing. He seemed the real deal when I spoke to him and his mate on the Catwalk on Wednesday; interested in the history, the routes, the climbers and the most of all the climbing. He wasn't here as part of a circus, just him and another guy - two climbers, on a climbing trip. I wish him well; hopefully he'll head off on Tuesday with positive vibes about sport climbing here in the UK. Not sure what he'd think if he could see some of the posts here mind...

A final point which I can't let go without passing comment on though. Our recent (and this is from my perspective - sic) history is full of examples of Johnny Foreigner coming over to the UK and have a blast, challenging norms and setting new standards – ref:
# Hot Henry in the early 70's
# Antoine Le Menestral soloing Revelations
# JB Tribout repeating Cry Freedom in 4 days after mark Leach took 40+ days
# Jean Pierre Bouvier redpointing Tequila Mockingbird and re-naming it
# Stephan Glowacz on-sight/flash ascent of Strawberries
# A headlight ascent of Parthian by our cousin from Os
# Team USA on the Grit a winter or two back
# The young Japanese climber last summer daring to venture forth onto hard routes when the temp was 10degs+

And lest we forget and think we're rubbish, we Brits have a habit of turning the screws overseas a bit sometimes - ref:
# Livesey’s visits to France in the 70's
# Moffatt's infamous 1st visit to Fontainebleau
# Moon's ascent of Agincourt at Buoux
# McClure’s understated performances on the Petzl rock trips
# Haston's activities over the years to say nothing of his current purple patch...

The common tread - all climbers on climbing trips, climbing - bring it on!

In reply to Fr Manko:
>>
FYI Frwanko, Steve Haston onsighted The Greenspit, which was 8b/+ on gear, which easily equates to E8/9.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

*flashed with pre placed draws.

In reply to Keith Sharples:

"dear oh dear, another thread lost at sea" too right!

Ondra comes and does more at Malham in a day than pretty much anyone else has done in their whole career and all it stimulates is a bout of bitching from the "custodians of the british trad tradition".

The guy is awesome, we should show him (and the climbing he does) some respect.

In reply to Keith Sharples:

Well said. Its aboutthe climbing not the numbers but then it seems from this thread that Fr Manko is a bit grade obsessed.

In reply to plexiglass_nick: not sure i agree, i get the impression that its seen as the right thing to do i.e. give him short shrift. not sure what he said was anything different to what others (who didnt get as sharp a response) have queried on the same thread. anyway, lets not continue with this as id rather be inspired and amazed by reading about Adam's monstrous efforts.

In reply to popebenedictus:
surely the sport climbers are grade obsessed as well? Otherwise they would come back from malham and go wow he did this great f7a. In fact my understanding is that sport climbers are much more numbers obsessed. Look at 8a.nu that is a score card for sport climbers. I believe on the continent a lot of easyish routes don't even get names they get reffered to as the f7b at sector .... etc.

In reply to popebenedictus:

What ever, My last routes were soloing and simul-climbing on Scafell. Sorry I ain't a peak punter.

In reply to Keith Sharples:

Well said.

To some of the others:

The guy's on a climbing trip to the UK with a mate.
Be friendly, be welcoming and ffs stop trying to tell him what he should do

In reply to Dan_Carroll:

Thanks for that !!

I can't climb anywhere near what is being done by Adam. I am more into trad than sport - but seeing someone operating at the top end of climbing whether trad, sport, big mountains or whatever is something special.

Will it be ticket only on the Catwalk ?

In reply to Dan_Carroll:

word is there is most likely a rest day planned for sat cos of crap weather then back on it for sunday!

In reply to Mr Plow:

Eh? Doesn't Malham stay dry in the rain? Or does it seep?

In reply to robin mueller: it could be that the top of overshadow is exposed, and or that the wind is a southerly maybe.

In reply to robin mueller:

100% cloud with base level of 40m + light precip. from 10am till 4pm

being inside a cloud for 6 hours is likely to make you wet yes.

In reply to Fr Manko:

I understand it was more like "flashed with two friends already in place, one which could be placed from the relatively (for him) easy first few moves, one of which was poorly placed anyway and he had to move it"!

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Yeh, I was being a bit of a chode really. All these achievements are amazing and opporating miles above the likes of chubby micro-routers like us. My point is plainly that europeans and brits are the same species and opporating at a similar level at the top. Europeans don't crush our trad, cause it's hard due to gear placement and danger, just like we don't crush their routes, just cause they're safe.

Good luck to Ondra, not that he'll need it. The motion of moving on rock is for most of us amazing and for someone of his ability it must be incredible, lets hope he ventures into the greater ranges though.

In reply to Nez: I second the posts about Violent New Breed - it is really disappointing when you have a route that's unrepeated for ages so no-one knows how hard or good it is. So many people want Ondra to get out there and repeat those big number UK climbs that never get done - VNB, Big Bang, Hubble, McClure's routes, Brian etc. because they want to know how UK sport compares to the rest of the world.

In reply to Keith Sharples:

i think Didier Raboutou might have done a bit back in the day though details escape me.

interesting (or not) turn this thread has taken....there is a lot of great climbing in the the UK so it's understandable locals feel proud of what's on offer, just not sure why one particular style of climbing needs to be validated over any others.....why aren't the boulderers suggesting certain problems get a visit from this bloke?

kind of like a cultural cringe for the traddies.

In reply to Fr Manco:

Maybe true near to the top but I'm not sure that Adam Ondra is operating at a similar level to anyone! Ste Mac has put up classic sport routes on the major cliffs in the UK that no-one has been even close to repeating and also repeated one on the hardest trad routes in a country over a couple of weekends - if AO can repeat his hardest route over a few days I would consider that a more than impressive achievement. Also his onsight achievements from yesterday would be an outstanding day for anybody (remember we like to think that Malham with all its technical trickery and terrible footholds is hard to onsight at) never mind the fact that he did in between trying to redpoint a 9a+.

In reply to Ian Patterson:
>...... never mind the fact that he did in between trying to redpoint a 9a+.

Thats the bit i wonder about. Sure he is just enjoying himself immensely but cannot off the top of my head think of many people who when trying to redpoint a route at the top of their grade, on the same day make a good point of exerting a fair deal of effort and potential redpoint attempts up on other routes. I certinaly dont have the credentials to question his judgements but makes you wonder if he would have dotn overshadow even sooner if he hadnt rushed up several other hard routes also. I know operating in the 9's is gonna make the early 8's a lot easier than mortals consider them but they must be sapping some of his redpoint energy....hopefully....


Cheers
Tim

In reply to Nez:

Shouldn't he be in school?

In reply to Tim Broughtonshaw: well, unless he's wired differently then you must be right: if i seek to redpoint something at my max yet on the same day i onsight some things a few grades easier there is just no way i'll do as well on those redpoints as i would otherwise have done. incredible stuff!

In reply to Fr Manco:


Genius!

what a bunch of wallopers lurk around this place!!!

extraordinary

In reply to Keith Sharples:

One, well two, more to add to the list of top foreign sport climbers who visited the UK:

Jean-Paul Finné and Alec Bronitz from Belgium in 1993:
J-P was the main man with on-sights of Zoolook, Toadal Recall and Man with a Gun. He also red-pointed Ecstasy, Predator, Yorkshire Ripper, Grooved Arete, Connect Four, Bullet and Showtime.
Alec on-sighted The Bulge and red-pointed Ecstasy.

That was in the space of a week, possibly two, and definitely fits with your "The common tread - all climbers on climbing trips..." comment - just two of them, reasonably evenly matched, on their hols. Their weather matched that set in store for Adam Ondra from the sound of the forecasts.

In reply to Fr Manco:

Don't be a muppet, the route is done of cams not bolts

In reply to dave o:


How condescending!

Do you not think it great that many climbers (wherever they post or discuss) are totally psyched that this young man, probably the best sport climber in the world, is over here to try some of the UK's hardest sport climbs.

Long may may climbers discuss grades, trad vs. sport, and climbing achievement, and the significance of this young man being over here.

He has stimulated much climbing debate and no doubt created much motivation and inspiration.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Good point to make and one which perhaps a few magasine editors/authors might like to take on board re: on-line discussion - it seems in vogue to dismiss the on-line 'community' as a bunch of nerds or ill-informed punters whose opinions don't count.

In reply to Nez:

i bet his mum is worried sick...climbing that high off the gound. he might get grounded without supper for a couple of weeks.

In reply to Nez: that's a fair tick list for a few days!
Wonder how many people will show up at malham today,only to find he is at raven tor

In reply to Fr Manco:

Franco mate, what a load of nonsense.
The reason us Brits don't crush top end Euro routes is that, bar Steve M, we aren't good enough. Nothing to do with them being not dangerous enough for us suicidally-minded Brits. Willy-waving about your belief that climbing is all about danger would impress Adam O even less than it impresses most folk on here.

And as for why he isn't out on trad, if you went on a short haul bolting clipping trip to Spain, what would you say to those who were complaining why you weren't romping up mountains up in the Pyranese? He's planned a trip to check out some of UK's hardest sport routes, why do you think he should abandon plans and go and do what Franco thinks he should do instead? His itinery is none of your business really.

In reply to mark s:
>

Malham is one of the world's best crags but who would make a special trip to Malham or change their weekend plans just because Ondra was going to be there?

Enty

In reply to Owen W-G:

Where did Franco say he 'should'? He said it would be interesting.

In reply to Toerag:

Doesn't it have a reputation for a being something of a boulder problem in the sky? In which case, perhaps we should have a whip around to buy Nalle Hukkataival a ticket because that sounds like just his thing. One of the best boulderers in the planet, who occasionally puts on a harness and then redpoints something hard.

In reply to TobyA:
>

yeah I seem to remember reading it's essentially a V15 problem and only 3 or so clips long. sounds perfect for Nalle! the guy looks unbelievably strong.

In reply to Dan_Carroll:

Highballable then? It's in the database here as 6m.

In reply to hexcentric:

Not a great landing though. Slopes.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

The fact that VNB has 2* in the logbooks shows that we have some way to go with how routes get stars....

In reply to JJL:

Get busy and start defining the criteria then.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Well he should at least visit gods only cliff GOGARTH !!

chopping the tat at Castell Helen (If he dare abseil with out it !! )

In reply to Ian McNeill:

Which cutting-edge sport routes might attract him to Gogarth then?



Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:
Give me a hilti and a bag of bolts and I'll have a 3 star F6a called Dream of White Gelded Horses for him.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

None cos its a pile of welded mouse shit

In reply to Nez:

I wouldn't have thought spotting Adam Ondra at Malham would do much good most of the time.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

The Cad?

In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:

5 star F4

In reply to Ian McNeill:

There's already no tat there. The second rope set up was just done off 3 of the rusty pegs, which I looked at and thought "really?!"

Whoever was saying dream would be a *** 6a, maybe a */** 4+ or something. I don't think the atmosphere would be the same, and when it comes down to it there's one really good pitch on it, plus a few ok ones...

Anyone who doesn't think that Ondra has the balls for trad should read this.....

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web08x/newswire-adam-ondra-redpoint-wogu

"...serious run outs and the potential for 20m falls...." On 8b+ and 8c ground. And that was two years ago when he wasn't nearly as good or as experienced as he is now!

You people live in a little trad bubble and have no idea what you are talking about.

In reply to seagull:

Hi Jasper Sharpe,

Reported twice at UKClimbing.com in 2008.

Better is this by Pietro Dal Pra... one of the best articles 'you people' will ever read

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-gb/journal/climb/all/bd-athlete-ada...

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Good link, ta Mick.

In reply to Nez:

Ondra spotted?



well he is still a teenager

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: excellent read that

In reply to seagull:

Well said.
You only have to see him missin clips on la Rambla and action directe.if he can run it on those routes,some uk trad route is going to be a walk in the park.

In reply to seagull:

I can't be bothered checking carefully through the thread, but I'm pretty sure no one said he didn't have the balls.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Brilliant.
Especially the ability to memorise 200metres of climbing like that.
Just awesome.

James

In reply to mark s:

Not really Mark.

It's just the usual willy waiving and gamesmanship. I think most UK climbers are under no illusion whatsoever about the ability of some of the World's top climbers and their ability to climb the UK's hardest trad routes.

Antoine Le Menestrel's solo'ed Revalations 8a+ 25 years ago....oh that's not trad, but it was one heck of a headpoint that still hasn't been repeated by the strong and obsessed.

Meshuga E9 got solo'ed two years ago by Jorgeson and Honnold. Trotter repeated Rhapsody E11. Nico Favresse and Sean Villanueva O'Driscoll ripped it up onsight a couple of years ago too.

It's just Jasper and crew being silly (put that on a T-shirt eh?) and making out they are better than others.

We have something really special in the UK and something to be proud of, but that doesn't mean that the talented can't rip it up when they come over here whatever style they climb.

I'm sure Ondra could climb anything he so desired in the UK he's that talented..... maybe even some of Mick Fowler's or Pat Littlejohn's routes.

Yeah Ondra.... what's he done down the Lleyn?

M

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Very minor point but wasn't Revelations 8a 25 years ago?

In reply to Mick Ryan:

What a load of contradictory waffle.

In reply to hexcentric:

Expand on that please.

Contradictory?

Waffle?

Which bits exactly?

Alan

In reply to Nez: ON TOPIC! what's he been up to today?

In reply to franksnb:

More to the point, has Jack worked his magic and got an interview for UKCTV?

In reply to Nez:

Out of interest, what "crag guide" would Ondra use. Routes such as Rainshadow and Overshadow aren't in the usual guidebooks.

In reply to hexcentric:

Oh sweetness. Bless.

In reply to franksnb:
Talk on Uk Bouldering is of him being to Kilnsey over the weekend and redpointing Northern Star and trying but not succeeding yet on Northern Lights.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:



seagul/Jasper's comment was about the idiocy of some of the comments earlier in the thread (hard to disagree with) so you divert attention from this by going off on one about how good foreign climbers are at trad. Always a good debating tactic: if you can't refute the point, refute a completely different one and perhaps people won't notice.


<on topic> According to UKB he did Northern Star on Saturday and Northern Lights today. Astonishing.

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Ok then. He took issue with seagull/Jasper saying "You people live in a little trad bubble and have no idea what you are talking about", but then took the piss out of the same people himself in adding "what's he done down the Lleyn" etc.

As to waffle, flaneur beat me to it.

"Wasn't there myself but a text at the crag said he redpointed Northern Lights today. If true 2 of the 4 hardest routes in Yorkshire ticked in 3 days"

North Star 9a

Northern Light 9a

In reply to flaneur and Hexentric: It's like the difference between different types of bird watchers.

Birders and Twitchers are always taking the piss out of each other.

No, you won't get it!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

So Mick, has Jack got the scoop for UKCTV and you're not telling us, or has it been a missed opportunity?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Wow. Stupendous effort Mr Ondra!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

He did that all in a week?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

He did north star on sunday morning (in balticly windy conditions) not saturday.


Cheers
Tim

In reply to snoop6060:

Yes.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Awesome from Ondra!
Well done but I can't say I'm surprised.
James

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


"Groove>Free and Easy>Breach of the Peace 8b O/S - putting clips in."

How is this climbed? One big rope (and topped out), multipitch or with insitu belayers waiting. CLimbing the whole of malham in one push is literally my lifes aim and this guy onsighted it.

That tick list is something special for a weeks work, as James said, for him its not that surprising! The fact that he is 16 is almost unbelievable though.

In reply to snoop6060:

Like this...

Steve Crowe Climbs Full Height of Malham Cove

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=49821

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Not being a sport climber - I much prefer trad - but I have to say that this is (insert jaw dropping adjective here) well, impressive.

Being at Kilnsey on Sunday must have been arctic in the north easterly - we sought out a more sheltered venue - so doubly well done. Just goes to show what talent, training, flexibility and more importantly not having gained a lifetime of exuses can do.

ALC

So can anyone update now?...Rich?
Has he gone home? Is that the end of the crushing? Overshadow in the bag, or not?

I've got that feeling of post-holiday blues...like when you've been looking forward to something for so long, and then it happens and you enjoy it while it lasts and it exceeds all your expectations, but then it's just over too quickly and you're left feeling empty afterwards

OK...a bit melodramatic...but how long will we have to wait before another super-wad comes over and wipes the floor with 'our' (Steve's) hardest routes?

Hopefully not too long now that Ondra's given Yorkshire some attention...

It'll be interesting to read about his thoughts on the crags and routes (quality, grades, etc) and I guess even more interesting for Steve to hear, after so long without a repeat.

In reply to ali k:



Maybe a bit OTT but I see your point - this thread has got a bit like that as well, lots of overexcitement followed by rubbish arguments and then shuffling to an end before its actually been confirmed what he achieved.

I'd like to hear confirmation of what he ticked and his thoughts on British climbing - if the stuff listed in this thread is correct then we really have seen one of best weeks of climbing ever in this country.

In reply to ali k:

Incidentally on saturday after he had one early morning redpoint attempt on overshadow, he stripped the route on the way down (after failing) and coincidentally Ste Mac arrived and they had a chat. Prior to Adam heading straight to kilnsey.

Cheers
Tim

In reply to ali k:

Is a "super wad crushing" the same as a "strong climber climbing" ?

In reply to GrahamD:

No, it's significantly more impressive.

In reply to Serpico:

http://www.old-picture.com/civil-war/pictures/Smoking-Pipes.jpg

In reply to GrahamD:


that's like totally what it means yeh. get wit it. and as my man serps said, it's like way more impressive yeh

In reply to Robertostallioni:


Those were good times...

In reply to Owen W-G:

I wish people would read my posts.


UKC love banning me for way less than the average punter gets away with. The fact that I haven't been banned for anything i've said in the last few months is evidence enough that I haven't said anything which wasn't well informed and/or worthwhile opinion. I do enjoy reading peoples strange interpretations of what i've written though, so if you'd like to get worked up by my posts, feel free.

In reply to ali k:

For all the geeks (myself included), AO has updated his 8a.nu scorecard.

Northern Lights and North Star both redpointed at 9a (he says North Star may be harder for the short ).

Plus onsights of 5 8b's, 2 8a+'s, 2 8a's (he didn't give himself the onsight of Predator!), just missed out onsighting True North right at the top. Comments on Overshadow were 'Must come back for Overshadow. It is pretty stiff 9a+ indeed. Possibly 9b? I have no clue, it is very specific move.'

Seemed to have really enjoyed the climbing.

In reply to Fr anco C:

My apologies, it's like Paris being pleasant in the the spring. I read your 'it would be interesting' as 'he should'.

In reply to Fr anco C:

By the way, is that Star Wars onsight solo for real? Awesome.

In reply to Ian Patterson:


yes for me that's the best thing about his visit. Some awesome crushing but for him to be positive about the routes is good to hear. Watch this space for some more visits from Andrada/Usobiaga/Shamra etc

Cheers
Tim

In reply to Ian Patterson:

From his score card he doesn't seem to hand out praise willy-nilly so the positive comments he's made should be taken as high praise indeed.
People have mocked me previously when I've suggested that we actually have some world class sport climbing in this country.
And it's good to see Ondra confirm what we already knew - Ste Mac's a world class wad*.

*(no apologies made for use of the term 'wad').

In reply to Tim Broughtonshaw:

Shamra? the Egyptian god of waddage?

In reply to Serpico:

It took Ste Mac 42 days to work overshaddow. It took hime over 15 years to work Strategem at his home crag of Ravenscar. So this must mean that it is at least F9b+? The hardest route in the world at hasty bank???

In reply to Serpico:

Yeah its great to see such overwhelmingly positive comments about the quality of routes.

In reply to Tyler:

Yes, especially a simple 'wow!' for Totally Free II, and the fact that he has marked up Northern Lights as one of his recommended routes.

In reply to Tyler:

Agreed, and also great to see more respect being given to Ste Mac and the sheer difficulty of some of his routes. Ondra's comment on his 8a logbook:

"Must come back for Overshadow. It is pretty stiff 9a+ indeed. Possibly 9b? I have no clue, it is very specific move."

In reply to Serpico:

Aye it wasnt a typo, think its been used before, it somehow seems to fit when you take his power screams and the tide of sharma positive hype that you get from the dosage vids.

Cheers
Tim

In reply to Ian Patterson:


Slightly silly pub quiz type question - but do we think they are the most northerly 9as in the world? There are no confirmed 9as in Scotland are there? Or in Sweden? I don't think so...

In reply to Tim Broughtonshaw: Get with the programme Tim. Calling Sharma Shamra is a piss take from She-Ra The Princess of Power in He-Ma & The Masters of the Universe.

"By the Power Of Greyskull I will crush this rout" (rout = Septic pronunciation of route)

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Actually, I saw an interview with Pharaoh Shamra recently, where he pronounced "route" the correct way, some American's do.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


However a LOT of UK climbers have little understanding of just how hard the UK's hardest sport is compared to its hardest trad.
Simpson pointed this out a few years ago in a BMC Summit article. The difference is massive and clearly shows Ondra to be in a league of his own compared to any previous visting wads..

In reply to Paul B:
Do you mean physically hard? Mentally hard? Or a combination of the two?
They are very different.
CLimbing a sport route at your physical limit is very different compared to climbing one on poor traditional gear placements.
James

In reply to James Oswald:
James see you're missing the point again. If you're climbing 9a with that ease and onsighting at such a high level conssistenyl on different rock types in different countries the climbing presented on UK trad routes IS a formality whatever the situation.
You could add a giant spiked bear pit under things like Meshuga and climbers of that callibre aren't going to break a sweat. For an example, Mclure made extremely short work of Rhapsody.

In reply to Paul B: McClure never climbed Rhapsopdy.

In reply to James Oswald:

>"Do you mean..."

To be fair I think everyone else on the planet knew he meant physically hard.

In reply to James Paul Robinson:

>"McClure never climbed Rhapsopdy."

He climbed what he considered Rhapsody to be. He was content with his personal performance.

In reply to Paul B:

That simply is not true.

Trad routes in the UK go up to F8c+ above a very dangerous fall. F8c+ is not a formality for someone climbing F9a, F9a+ or even F9b. And lets not forget that the hardest anyone has onsighted is F8c, which is a lot easier than the combined experience of a lot of trad routes, which are often damp, difficult to approach, snappy and serious.

In reply to JLS:

So like i said, he never actually climbed Rhapsody.

Is it just me or is Overshadow missing from the log books?

In reply to thread:

Uh oh, RELAPSE!

In reply to James Paul Robinson:

He got one hold near the top with his right hand rather than his left making the top move a bit easier. Routes don't have L and R written next to the holds.

In reply to Fr anco C:

And you wonder why touring europeans aren't enthusiastic about repeating them, with descriptions like that!

In reply to RupertD:

He obviously climbed Rhapsody, but what does that prove? That the top Sport climber in the UK can headpoint the UKs second hardest trad route?

If the bolts on a F9a+ were replaced with threads it would be about E11, remarkably similar to the current top trad routes i'd say...

In reply to Fr anco C: Using the rockfax conversion chart I'm sure you're right. However, its wrong.

In reply to Paul B: what would you suggest it is? - considering a F8c+ with a massive fall is E11.

In reply to Fr anco C:

It prooved that Britains best sport climber can repeat the UKs 2nd hardest trad climb a lot more quickly than the first ascentionist (one of Britains best trad climbers) and a visiting Canadian. And Adam Ondra looks to be a good bit 'better' than Steve M.

I guess the point that people are trying to make is that the hardest sport routes are properly hard. Quite a few of Britains best trad climbers spend plenty time at Malham / Kilnsey (e.g. Dave Birket) and aren't even ready to attempt Steve's hard routes - and its not as if there anything but super classics (no elimate rules on Rainshow ). Maybe Dave Mac could have a go but since he and Malcom Smith seem to swap hard sports routes and boulders in Scotland and MS hasn't managed to repeat any of the big 4 I'm not sure how much success he'd have.

In reply to Fr anco C:

Mcclure's effort was more like climbing a runout sports route. Still awesome, but not comparable.

It's not trad if you preplace all the gear.

In reply to Calum Nicoll:

Have you told Mr Birkett about this?

In reply to RupertD: Having spoken with Steve personally and getting his opinion he admitted he used holds that were not in the eliminate headwall of rhapsody.

In reply to James Paul Robinson:

Bit of a crappy trad route if you have to avoid holds on purpose no?

In reply to Kid Spatula: True, he said that Dave had almost found the hardest way of getting up the headwall and it was definitely an eliminate problem up there.

In reply to Ian Patterson:

Thanks for explaining that and I sort of get what you mean.


Although I don't think you can talk about comparing times between the first ascentionist and someone repeating it (especially when Steve appears to have climbed it slightly differently). Opening lines is always a lot more difficult and time consuming.


Does all thid not show that there are two beasts in british climbing- one who puts up hard sport routes and one who puts up hard trad routes and that they are operating at a similar level. Overshaddow appears harder than Rhapsody, but then so does Echo wall?

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Yeah but Steve McClure climbed the line of Rhapsody, not one of the others.

In reply to Fr anco C:

What other UK trad routes are there with 8c/+ difficulty other than ones put up by Dave Mac?

Genuine question. Rhapsody always gets wheeled out as the example, so are there other trad routes of a similar technical difficulty, or is it the exception that proves the rule?

If 6 was 9 - about 8a+
Divided Years - 8a+
Knockin on Heaven's Door - 7b
Meshuga - somewhere between 7b+ and 8a
Parthian Shot - 8a+
Gerty Berwick - 'highball Font 8a'
New Statesman - 7c+ to 8a+
Widdop Wall - 8a+

The only one I can actually think of is Beth Rodden's route, Meltdown.

In reply to hexcentric:

He'd probably agree.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Are there other sport routes graded F9a+/b?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

He'll not be best pleased that the guidebooks have gone and given them E grades then eh?

In reply to Fr anco C:

Are you kidding? Around the world or in the UK?

The UK has Violent New Breed and Overshadow at 9a+, and at 9a has North Star, Northern Lights, Rainshadow, Mutation, Big Bang and Total Eclipse...

In reply to Fr anco C:

around the world, this should give you a rough idea
http://escalade9.wifeo.com/grimpeurs.php

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

In the UK, as we were talking about UK climbers.

Is your point that overshaddow is way harder than Echo Wall?

In reply to Fr anco C:

My point is that when this argument comes up, the counter example you always give to say that the technical difficulty on a UK trad route is comparable to sport routes, is Rhapsody.

I am saying, that as Dave Mac has done 9a he is getting on for a sport wad himself, so perhaps he is the exception that proves the rule - given he has chewed up and spat out pretty much the hardest of the hard trad route in the country. And the only successful repeats of Rhapsody to date are by climbers with a very strong sport track record.

What routes, other than those put up by Dave Mac, are of a similar level of technical difficulty? ie. F8c or above.

According to my rockfax graded list (which is a good number of years out of date now but here is the starter for 10) there are 9 routes at 8c and above in the Peak alone, and 8 in Yorkshire.

I am actually interested in the answer to this - if anyone knows? what hard trad routes are there featuring climbing at say F8b or above? Or is Dave Mac the only trad climber we have operating at that kind of technical level? (aside from McClure, natch) Dave Mac reckoned the Walk of Life was 8a/8a+ FWIW.

In reply to hexcentric:

Ask him.

Knowing Dave, he lives to climb, not to grade, although he'll talk grades like any of us.

It's never black and white were climbing is concerned, unless you are off!

People love to rank and categories - as on this thread - but it is ultimately futile.

Here goes.... two of the climbers who impress me are of course Ondra, and Alex Honnold - put a silly E=grade on his solo ascents.

Grades are guides to routes I can't do.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Welcome To The Cruel World - 8b+'ish - Birkett

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Im not very clued up on the Sport grades of hard pre-practised trad routes, but there are definitely many trad routes equivalent to F8cs (E9s). If we compare the numbers of E8s to F8bs, E9s to F8cs and E10s to F9as; I think we'd find that there would be a balance.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


I agree Mick. I merely want people to stop posting the same old comments about how much harder top end sport climbers climb than top end trad climbers. Comparing grades is the only way to demonstrate that this isnt the case.

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Cheers. Breathless is apparently 8b+ climbing as well.

In reply to Fr anco C:

Jeezus.

You can't compare: and it's pointless doing so. But please don't give up!

Not that long ago we were all climbers.

It's all climbing.

In reply to Fr anco C:


Then it's a bit of a bold statement to make, isn't it, that hard UK trad is just as technically difficult as hard sport?


such as which ones?



aaaaargh now you sound like Jens from 8a.nu. This is exactly the point, the E grade doesn't directly measure technical difficulty and you can't compare E grades to F grades as well you know. Indian Face E9 is 7b+ and as Adam points out, Welcome to the Cruel World E9 is 8b+.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

You can.

I'm talking about the trad grade a perfectly protected (bolted) sport route would get.

F8a is around E7 = fact

In reply to Fr anco C:
For heavens sake; Apart from Dave Mc, take any other British tradster and look at their sport climbing ahcievments are any of them anywhere near cutting edge? The answer is no, just no. In this manner we're making a comparison between Trad and Sport and not Dave and Steve etc.
The difference between 8a+-8b+ climbing on Trad routes and 9a+ Sport is immense.

In reply to Fr anco C: Absolute tosh Frnaco, E7 is a world away from F8a. FACT.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:
>


I never said that. An F8a sport route is about as hard as an F7b sport route with a death fall. That is the principle of trad climbing, I wish people could understand this, even mick doesn't.

In reply to Paul B:

Then why did old F8a sport routes get E7 before french grades?

In reply to Fr anco C:

>> If you're climbing 9a with that ease and onsighting at such a high level conssistenyl on different rock types in different countries the climbing presented on UK trad routes IS a formality whatever the situation.

You said:



What I am saying, is that other than routes put up by Dave Macleod, which trad routes in the UK have anything like F8c+ climbing above a dangerous fall?

Hypothetical grade conversion tables are not evidence that these routes actually exist in the UK.

In reply to Fr anco C:
Because the grading scale wasn't representative or appropriate. A shaky foundation to be basing your arguments upon?

E7 does not equal F8a in the real world.

I think a lot of this type of debating stems from grade conversion tables etc. that need a re-work (a difficult job I admit).

In reply to Paul B:



Try it. You'll fail. As will anyone. They are rough guidelines.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Absolutely Mick, but nobody (i.e. Franco.) will take them as Guidelines. They take them as given.
I will say though that the current table is so far off that a better guess could/should be formulated.

In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Well I am right then. The trad routes in the UK aren't formalities as two routes are F8c/+ with dangerous falls.


Once you get rid of those routes (for some arbitary reason I don't understand) then you are right, there isn't much above F8b, which for a F9b readpointer isn't that hard, but to onsight these routes would be.

On reason top end Trad headpointing isn't developing as fast as sport (apart from the tiny amount of people concerned with trad compared to sport) is that many are more interested in onsight climbing. If we compare sport onsighting to trad onsighting, they aren't that far away- E8 (F8bish) and F8c.

Forgive my ignorance, but how many sport climbers have onsighted F8c?

In reply to Paul B:

Surely every F8a should equal the same H grade? and roughly the same E grade?

In reply to Fr anco C:

OMG - Are you serious?

In reply to Fr anco C:
- E8 (F8bish) and F8c.

You're doing it again. E8 and F8b just aren't the same level of difficulty. Go and try them and speak from real world experience your conversions don't work. Think E8 F7b+ and thats how far out you are.

Tonnes Franco, tonnes. A lot of whom are very very young. F8c onsight is standard in Europe.

I didn't realise that Rhapsody was a eliminate. Thats a bit shit isn't it!

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

No I think Franco's right on that one. Generalising a bit, the French grade is the overall grade for a super-well protected route on solid rock, etc.

So if you were to give these sports routes E grades, most of the E grade "factors" would be constant for all of them. This would leave the only variable factor as the physical difficulty of the route which is essentially the French grade - hence same F grade would pretty much mean same E grade.

The only other factor that might come in is that French is for climbing the route, whereas E grades are for on-sighting. So a hard to onsight French grade might have a higher E grade, etc.

In reply to Michael Hood:


To echo Adam Lincoln

OMG - Are you serious?

In reply to Michael Hood:

Hence why I said the same H grade- as the H grade doesn't take into account blindeness of moves/ sequence. Please enlighten me Adam, as to what variable I am forgetting?

can someone give that record player a kick

In reply to Fr anco C:
Hahahaha mate your having a laugh! i did an E7 the other day that was F7a 7a+ MAX.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I think you should ban yourself Mick. No one seems to be able to tell me why im wrong, so i'll just on keep believing i'm right.

In reply to Fr anco C:

I don't argue with stuck records, or brick walls.

In reply to crcold:

But it was bold was it not?


I'm not saying all E7s are F8as, but a well protected (all the way through the route) E7 should be about F8a.

Either i'm missing something very obvious, or people are very slow on this forum. Your reply makes me think the latter.

In reply to the inspiral carpet: Yep, please point out the flaw in my logic.

I'm not suggesting we go back to E grades for sport as they wouldn't add any information above the French grade.

In reply to Fr anco C:

You are absoloooterly correct Franco.

Now run along, or we'll set Adam and the cohort from UKB on you: they'll sort you out.

In reply to Fr anco C:

For arguments sake you throw a toprope down 2 8a's the difficulty is pretty much comparable.

Do the same with 2 E8's and the difficulty can be vast, as much as from 7a to 8a.

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

That's what's odd about this forum.

step 1) wild accusation about how easy trad climbing is
step 2) reasoned argument for why the sccusation was wrong
Step 3) the sport climbers run away under a banner of the argument being boring
Step 4) the accusation is made again next week.



I'm not bothered if you don't want to discuss it, but lets not have more sport climbers spouting things which plainly are not true.

In reply to the inspiral carpet:

obviously. But the challenges are meant to be the same, as the danger is more on the easier route.

In reply to crcold:
Bang an E-grade/H-grade drum as much as you like, onsight/headpoint bla bla. Go and take a look at a cutting edge sport route and then go and look at the equivalent trad route. Try the moves. I know which one's going to be harder regardless whether its measure using an E or a H or an F.

In reply to the inspiral carpet:

Anyway, why has this led to a stupid grade debate?

Adam Ondra comes, sees, crushes and leaves. Awesome!

In reply to Paul B:

Have you factored the danger in though?

I suppose it's understandable that all sport climbers can comprehend is how hard the moves are, but an easier route can be as hard as a hard one if the gear is worse.

In reply to Fr anco C:

not really, but it was a flash...so for an onsite it would feel quite bold yes. Anyhow i cant be arsed to enter into a massive debate, i just wanna have fun and climb cool routes.

Easy.

In reply to crcold:

I agree. I'm happy not to discuss this bollocks, but I'll be on the next thread when someone says that Sport climbers could piss up any trad routes within minutes, spouting the same crap as I have here.

In reply to the inspiral carpet:

Ah I think I can see where everybody's getting hot under the collar...

All routes at a particular French grade should have a pretty similar E grade - because it's an overall grade and they all have similar characteristics; well protected, solid, etc. This is what Franco and I have been saying.

All routes at a particular E grade WILL NOT have a pretty similar French grade because some trad routes are bold, some are well protected, etc. This is what you and Adam have been saying.

However, all E grade trad routes of similar characteristics (i.e. same level of boldness, solidity, etc) should have a similar French grade. And I think what Franco is saying is this - all super-well protected, solid E8s should be about F8a.

In reply to Michael Hood:
But both of you are basing that on hypothetical routes rather than operating in the real world. I can chuck out examples of E7's that don't equal F8a and E8's that don't equal F8b until the cows come home. Stop arguing tenuous points about the finer points of the applicability of a grading scale and get down to the nitty gritty; the climbing, the moves.

In reply to Fr anco C:

The point is, surely, that in the E grade system difficulty is traded off against boldness. E7 can be 8a and safe, or 7a+ and bold. The question is whether that trade off actually works in practice, does the boldness of a 7a+ E7 make it as hard as an 8a E7 to onsight? Some people feel that boldness is over-rewarded grade-wise, especially at the top end. Rhapsody is a case in point. If well protected 8c/+ is E9 then Rhapsody goes from E9 to E11 simply by virtue of falling onto 2 small wires (that have held numerous falls), rather than onto a bolt. The fall length is irrelevant as you don't hit the deck and sport routes can have falls just as big if you skip clips.

Looking at it another way if we assume the "E9 = bolted 8c+" and "E11= bolted 9a+" equivalencies are correct, if you can climb 8c+/E9, which is the easier way to get to E11/9a+? a) train like a bastard for 5 years so you can climb a 9a+, or b) simply climb an a 8c/+ above a small wire (that in reality is very unlikely to snap) and get E11?

In reply to Fr anco C: Actually, I can sort of see Franco's reasoning that an 8a would get about E7 if it had to be given a trad grade (an 8a would be dead safe, thus reducing the E-grade, but obviously have very hard moves compared to a typical E7, thus increasing the E-grade, so do these two factors not work in opposition and maybe sort of cancel each other out?). I'm assuming that the route's got plenty of bomber gear (bolts?) for the sake of argument. He's not suggesting that a trad E7 would be given f8a if it were retro-bolted, it would be more like f7a-b in most cases i'd guess. And yes I know that sport routes aren't the same as trad routes blah blah blah.

In reply to RupertD:

Ru, surely you know the E grade reflects all the characters of a route, not simply difficulty vs boldness?

Look at it this way - which do you think would take Ondra longer to repeat - Overshadow, or Echo Wall?

In reply to Adam Long: Depends if you factor in snow-shovelling time surely?

In reply to Adam Long:

Yes, I simplified it a bit. On roadside crags like Dumby and Malham though the trade off is mostly boldness vs difficulty I would have thought.

As regards Overshadow vs Echo wall and Ondra, God knows, Echo wall really is one of those routes where numerous factors come into play.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Fascinating stuff...do go on.

In reply to Paul B: Try reading my previous post more carefully, I said that all (say) F8a would pretty much get the same E grade, not that all E8 would get the same F grade, which is totally different.

Incidentally, how many really hard safe trad routes are there; i.e. ones where you could almost treat them like a bolted sport route. The only ones that comes to mind is the Requiem/Rhapsody wall - why...
1. If it's well protected naturally then ir's likely to have reasonable holds (a crack, pockets, etc).
2. To be hard with reasonable holds it has to be mega steep.
3. Most mega steep rock in the UK that is climable is limestone.
4. And this limestone is err - bolted as sport routes (even if there is natural gear available).

In reply to RupertD:

In reply to RupertD:

A great reply. You appear to have more brain cells than the rest of UKC put together.

Your point about over-grading boldness is right I feel, especially for headpoints, where in many ways it becomes irrelevent how bold a route is, as you wont fall off.

Beliefs about how boldness is over-graded soon change though, when confronted with a move below your limit, but with massive danger. It is no coincidence that most people's best onsight grade at sport is very similar to the top-end french grade for their onsight trad grade. For example a F7b climber might also flash E5, either well protected F7a+ or bold F6b+/c. Hence these feats are of a similar difficulty.

In reply to Paul B:

In reply to hexcentric:

For everyone there is a level where the chance of you falling off is so remote that it becomes irrelevant. For you, me etc. that might be fairly low. For someone who onsights above F8b conssistenly I'd say its fairly darn high.

does nobody ever do california arete or whatever its called in the slate quarries?

In reply to Fr anco C:

What, guaranteed? Sweet, I'll sling a rope down Indian Face tomorrow.

In reply to hexcentric:

Where in many ways it becomes irrelevant how bold a route is (except if it's very slippy or loose.

In reply to Nez:

I agree with Franco, I think claiming that top end sport climbers would have no issue with top end trad climbs does a great dis-service to the hard trad climbers who have put them up/repeated them.

If all trad routes were lead on 'safe' preplaced gear then the two disciplines would be comparable but they aren't. As has been said trad grades trade off some technical difficulty for the danger of the climbing, danger which requires a different mental strength than sport climbing, and if the trade off is assumed fair ( I realise people may argue it is not) then it is disrespectful to assume that any physically talented enough sport climber could waltz up a given trad route, particularly if they are attempting it onsight.

Adam Ondra is an amazingly talented sport climber but unless he one day decides to turn his hand to hard trad ascents it is quite ridiculous for people to just presume he would not struggle leading the hardest trad routes without pre=placed gear. Trad is significantly different to sport climbing and without examples of a person's achievements in both it is not possible to confidently determine how successful a transition a climber would make from one discipline to another.

What I will say is that Dave Macleod felt the need to be climbing F9a to be confident of success on Echo wall and claiming that any suitably hard sport climber could now go and lead that climb on questionable gear is dubious. Trad climbing requires something that sport climbing does not and nobody can be sure of someone having 'that' ability based on their success in a different discipline.

In reply to Fr anco C:

So no one falls off routes on headpoint unless they're very slippy or loose?

That's not very exciting.

In reply to Fr anco C:
Hey Franco, tell me, do you compare yourself to Ondra when you are having a spotty teenage wet dream, or only when you've been eating too many mushrooms??

In reply to liz j:

Have you crawled out of Haston's ass and up Ondra's now?

In reply to liz j:

Hey Liz, tell me, do you compare yourself to Haston when you are having a menopausal wet dream, or only when you've been eating too many brussel sprouts?

In reply to melonmike:

And you are still firmly up your own!!! Sheets still wet??

In reply to mods:

Perhaps a new forum should be considered for threads such as this once they've rumbled over the 300-post mark.

'Rocktalk Classics'?

In reply to MJ:
Sorry, Stevie who??

In reply to Fr anco C:

You have to be careful when you use the collective UKC as you are disrespecting even the person you are praising. Ru is a UKC forum user just like you.

Better to say that you disagree with a particular opinion on the thread.

Anyone with a brain cell knows that.

In reply to liz j:

MJ mentions Haston, but not his first name so I'm afraid you've been caught out saying "Stevie who".

But why as your first post on this thread (unless I've missed it in the 300 above) do you come on and insult someone? You may not agree with Franco or his unwillingness to "leave it" but I don't think he was being insulting in his posts, just arguing his opinion.