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Hi,
After recently climbing the classic Gillercombe Buttress in the lakes the other day...I was not completely suprised to see that it had had an ascent last winter....by the nature of the marks left...the team had had a resonably hard time on it...there had seemed to be a fair ammount of scrabling going on...leaving an altogether unsitely mess from the bottom to the top of the route...
Now I come from the premise that if we leave the route in a state pretty much as we found it...then who cares what people get upto on their ascent...taking only photos and leaving only footprints etc etc
BUT...this is just not the case here!
Way back in the mists of time ('86) Tony Brindle and A Moore climbed Central buttress on Scafell....without crampons to avoid damaging this wonderful and historic climb...it would I am sure be undoubtedly harder without crampons and showed an admirable ethic...
The lakes rock IS soft...just look at the worn gear placements...the scratches will finally blend with lichen regrowth (possibly 20 yrs?)...but the scoured grooves wont....
Why not accept a real challenge..if you want to climb these frosted climbs...then climb them without crampons...if it is in winter nick...then it is an idiot that says they are easier or doubtful nick if you climbed them without ....and who cares..you had some fine sport and left the climb in pretty the same way as you found it.
Moss Ghyll Grooves is possibly another example of this type of frosted climb....even Botteril's Slab which is largely an icy-venture has already "been spoilt" for some as a VS experience.
So accept the challenge, give the climb a chance and maybe we will see a time when climbing a climb like this without crampons in true winter nick...will be applauded!
After recently climbing the classic Gillercombe Buttress in the lakes the other day...I was not completely suprised to see that it had had an ascent last winter....by the nature of the marks left...the team had had a resonably hard time on it...there had seemed to be a fair ammount of scrabling going on...leaving an altogether unsitely mess from the bottom to the top of the route...
Now I come from the premise that if we leave the route in a state pretty much as we found it...then who cares what people get upto on their ascent...taking only photos and leaving only footprints etc etc
BUT...this is just not the case here!
Way back in the mists of time ('86) Tony Brindle and A Moore climbed Central buttress on Scafell....without crampons to avoid damaging this wonderful and historic climb...it would I am sure be undoubtedly harder without crampons and showed an admirable ethic...
The lakes rock IS soft...just look at the worn gear placements...the scratches will finally blend with lichen regrowth (possibly 20 yrs?)...but the scoured grooves wont....
Why not accept a real challenge..if you want to climb these frosted climbs...then climb them without crampons...if it is in winter nick...then it is an idiot that says they are easier or doubtful nick if you climbed them without ....and who cares..you had some fine sport and left the climb in pretty the same way as you found it.
Moss Ghyll Grooves is possibly another example of this type of frosted climb....even Botteril's Slab which is largely an icy-venture has already "been spoilt" for some as a VS experience.
So accept the challenge, give the climb a chance and maybe we will see a time when climbing a climb like this without crampons in true winter nick...will be applauded!
In reply to Id love to climb.....:
Surely this topic isn't due to come up until October?
Surely this topic isn't due to come up until October?
In reply to Id love to climb.....:
You could argue that crampon marks ARE only footprints
> Now I come from the premise that if we leave the route in a state pretty much as we found it...then who cares what people get upto on their ascent...taking only photos and leaving only footprints etc etc
You could argue that crampon marks ARE only footprints
> Hi,
> After recently climbing the classic Gillercombe Buttress in the lakes the other day...I was not completely suprised to see that it had had an ascent last winter....by the nature of the marks left...the team had had a resonably hard time on it...there had seemed to be a fair ammount of scrabling going on...leaving an altogether unsitely mess from the bottom to the top of the route...
> Now I come from the premise that if we leave the route in a state pretty much as we found it...then who cares what people get upto on their ascent...taking only photos and leaving only footprints etc etc
> BUT...this is just not the case here!
> Way back in the mists of time ('86) Tony Brindle and A Moore climbed Central buttress on Scafell....without crampons to avoid damaging this wonderful and historic climb...it would I am sure be undoubtedly harder without crampons and showed an admirable ethic...
> The lakes rock IS soft...just look at the worn gear placements...the scratches will finally blend with lichen regrowth (possibly 20 yrs?)...but the scoured grooves wont....
> Why not accept a real challenge..if you want to climb these frosted climbs...then climb them without crampons...if it is in winter nick...then it is an idiot that says they are easier or doubtful nick if you climbed them without ....and who cares..you had some fine sport and left the climb in pretty the same way as you found it.
> Moss Ghyll Grooves is possibly another example of this type of frosted climb....even Botteril's Slab which is largely an icy-venture has already "been spoilt" for some as a VS experience.
> So accept the challenge, give the climb a chance and maybe we will see a time when climbing a climb like this without crampons in true winter nick...will be applauded!
> After recently climbing the classic Gillercombe Buttress in the lakes the other day...I was not completely suprised to see that it had had an ascent last winter....by the nature of the marks left...the team had had a resonably hard time on it...there had seemed to be a fair ammount of scrabling going on...leaving an altogether unsitely mess from the bottom to the top of the route...
> Now I come from the premise that if we leave the route in a state pretty much as we found it...then who cares what people get upto on their ascent...taking only photos and leaving only footprints etc etc
> BUT...this is just not the case here!
> Way back in the mists of time ('86) Tony Brindle and A Moore climbed Central buttress on Scafell....without crampons to avoid damaging this wonderful and historic climb...it would I am sure be undoubtedly harder without crampons and showed an admirable ethic...
> The lakes rock IS soft...just look at the worn gear placements...the scratches will finally blend with lichen regrowth (possibly 20 yrs?)...but the scoured grooves wont....
> Why not accept a real challenge..if you want to climb these frosted climbs...then climb them without crampons...if it is in winter nick...then it is an idiot that says they are easier or doubtful nick if you climbed them without ....and who cares..you had some fine sport and left the climb in pretty the same way as you found it.
> Moss Ghyll Grooves is possibly another example of this type of frosted climb....even Botteril's Slab which is largely an icy-venture has already "been spoilt" for some as a VS experience.
> So accept the challenge, give the climb a chance and maybe we will see a time when climbing a climb like this without crampons in true winter nick...will be applauded!
Whining started already.
In reply to Id love to climb.....: Are you suggesting that all mixed climbing on summer routes should be done without crampons? I don't know if you've ever tried to climb verglassed or hoared up rock in boot soles, but you generally have about as much friction as a wet fish on David Cameron's forehead.
When considering whether the scratches are justified I think it's a balence of what both the winter and summer climbers get out of the routes. All in all, i don't think that a few scratches on a classic vs is going to detract that much from the summer experience and any slight loss in the aesthetics of the climb to the summer climber is easily outweighed by the pleasure that is had by the winter climber.
p.s. if you want to make yourself really angry, go and do bowfell buttress.
When considering whether the scratches are justified I think it's a balence of what both the winter and summer climbers get out of the routes. All in all, i don't think that a few scratches on a classic vs is going to detract that much from the summer experience and any slight loss in the aesthetics of the climb to the summer climber is easily outweighed by the pleasure that is had by the winter climber.
p.s. if you want to make yourself really angry, go and do bowfell buttress.
In reply to Only a hill:
whaddaya mean?! this is a great way to keep the winter climbing headspace alive year round - keeps you in the zone.
a couple of posts about 'will G10s fit my scarpas?' complete the atmosphere
nah but seriously, bashing the shit out of a route needlessly is a bit uncool - big groups, seconding girlfriends well out of their depth scrambling for life etc.
at least use monopoints to halve the damage!
just scratches i think are fairly unoffensive - but when flakes get smashed off and pockets gouged its not ideal. stuff the delicate alpine ecosystem cant repair.
crampon-less is an interesting idea - would be weird walking in then removing your spikes to climb. but why not?
> (In reply to Id love to climb.....)
> Surely this topic isn't due to come up until October?
> Surely this topic isn't due to come up until October?
whaddaya mean?! this is a great way to keep the winter climbing headspace alive year round - keeps you in the zone.
a couple of posts about 'will G10s fit my scarpas?' complete the atmosphere
nah but seriously, bashing the shit out of a route needlessly is a bit uncool - big groups, seconding girlfriends well out of their depth scrambling for life etc.
at least use monopoints to halve the damage!
just scratches i think are fairly unoffensive - but when flakes get smashed off and pockets gouged its not ideal. stuff the delicate alpine ecosystem cant repair.
crampon-less is an interesting idea - would be weird walking in then removing your spikes to climb. but why not?
In reply to ice.solo:
I've never quite got the scrabbling about thing. Does it really go on that much these days? If you are pedalling for footholds and can't place your poons neatly I'd argue that either a)you are trying something too hard, b)you're pretty unfit if you can't pick your foot up and place it in control. And if your climbing like this on verglass then that patina of ice isn't goint to help you as you'll destroy it with each clumsy stab of your feet.
I've never quite got the scrabbling about thing. Does it really go on that much these days? If you are pedalling for footholds and can't place your poons neatly I'd argue that either a)you are trying something too hard, b)you're pretty unfit if you can't pick your foot up and place it in control. And if your climbing like this on verglass then that patina of ice isn't goint to help you as you'll destroy it with each clumsy stab of your feet.
In reply to neilinut:
c) you can't see the footholds through the hoar coating the rock.
d) can't see your feet cos of the spindrift.
Chalk use is far worse than crampon scratches.
> (In reply to ice.solo)
>
> I've never quite got the scrabbling about thing. Does it really go on that much these days? If you are pedalling for footholds and can't place your poons neatly I'd argue that either a)you are trying something too hard, b)you're pretty unfit if you can't pick your foot up and place it in control. And if your climbing like this on verglass then that patina of ice isn't goint to help you as you'll destroy it with each clumsy stab of your feet.
>
> I've never quite got the scrabbling about thing. Does it really go on that much these days? If you are pedalling for footholds and can't place your poons neatly I'd argue that either a)you are trying something too hard, b)you're pretty unfit if you can't pick your foot up and place it in control. And if your climbing like this on verglass then that patina of ice isn't goint to help you as you'll destroy it with each clumsy stab of your feet.
c) you can't see the footholds through the hoar coating the rock.
d) can't see your feet cos of the spindrift.
Chalk use is far worse than crampon scratches.
In reply to Calum Nicoll:
The smart kids take a look for them as the go up and lightly scrape the crust off with an axe. This can mark what you've seen really well in addition to finding that edge/nobble
> (In reply to neilinut)
> [...]
>
> c) you can't see the footholds through the hoar coating the rock.
> [...]
>
> c) you can't see the footholds through the hoar coating the rock.
The smart kids take a look for them as the go up and lightly scrape the crust off with an axe. This can mark what you've seen really well in addition to finding that edge/nobble
> d) can't see your feet cos of the spindrift.
Coordination? It is the same skill as climbing through a roof. Your body remembers where your hands(or tools) have been,>
>
> Chalk use is far worse than crampon scratches.
bo!locks. More frequent maybe>
> Chalk use is far worse than crampon scratches.
In reply to neilinut:
If you're climbing and you can brush every foothold, it's more like a walk. Also, in many circumstances you could need to brush most of the wall to find the holds, easier to do with a leg.
Although you don't need to scrape down the rock hard.
Wrong.
> (In reply to Calum Nicoll)
> [...]
>
> The smart kids take a look for them as the go up and lightly scrape the crust off with an axe. This can mark what you've seen really well in addition to finding that edge/nobble
> [...]
>
> The smart kids take a look for them as the go up and lightly scrape the crust off with an axe. This can mark what you've seen really well in addition to finding that edge/nobble
If you're climbing and you can brush every foothold, it's more like a walk. Also, in many circumstances you could need to brush most of the wall to find the holds, easier to do with a leg.
Although you don't need to scrape down the rock hard.
>
> [...]
> bo!locks.
> [...]
> bo!locks.
Wrong.
In reply to Pete Graham:
I think that you have unwittingly answered this one yourself!
Again I remember soloing Bowfell buttress under heavy snow and ice (about 25 yrs ago) without crampons or axes....and seeing that there was negligible crampon wear on the climb....But now....A very different matter!!
Are you seriously telling me that you would be quite happy to see the likes of Gillercombe Buttress ending up in the same sorry state as Bowfell!!
As I see it there are 2 main causes of climbs rapidly deteriorating;
1. Poor footwork....good climbers climbing tricky routes generally leave negligible marks....poorer climbers end up pedalling quite a lot....
2. Ammont of traffic....1 team climb Gillercombe and leave the climb in a real mess....it takes no imagination at all to see what it will look like after just a very few ascents!!
If we talk about aesthetics....would you call the state Bowfell is now in, as a slight loss in aesthetics....when the enjoyment of a few winter climbers outweighs the enjoyment of litteraly thousands of rock climbers.
> (In reply to Id love to climb.....) Are you suggesting that all mixed climbing on summer routes should be done without crampons? I don't know if you've ever tried to climb verglassed or hoared up rock in boot soles, but you generally have about as much friction as a wet fish on David Cameron's forehead.
>
I remember climbing a sustained VS on Pillar, about 20 years ago, at night with all the ledges totally banked out with well frozen neve and oodles of verglas...toping out at dawn...climbing a vertical wall of crystal clear organ pipe ice...an exceptionally rewarding and memorable experience....all this in a pair of Walsh's and bare hands....(ie; no axes or crampons).....it would of course have been immeasurably easier with tools and a pair of crampons.>
> When considering whether the scratches are justified I think it's a balence of what both the winter and summer climbers get out of the routes. All in all, i don't think that a few scratches on a classic vs is going to detract that much from the summer experience and any slight loss in the aesthetics of the climb to the summer climber is easily outweighed by the pleasure that is had by the winter climber.
>
> p.s. if you want to make yourself really angry, go and do bowfell buttress.
>
> p.s. if you want to make yourself really angry, go and do bowfell buttress.
I think that you have unwittingly answered this one yourself!
Again I remember soloing Bowfell buttress under heavy snow and ice (about 25 yrs ago) without crampons or axes....and seeing that there was negligible crampon wear on the climb....But now....A very different matter!!
Are you seriously telling me that you would be quite happy to see the likes of Gillercombe Buttress ending up in the same sorry state as Bowfell!!
As I see it there are 2 main causes of climbs rapidly deteriorating;
1. Poor footwork....good climbers climbing tricky routes generally leave negligible marks....poorer climbers end up pedalling quite a lot....
2. Ammont of traffic....1 team climb Gillercombe and leave the climb in a real mess....it takes no imagination at all to see what it will look like after just a very few ascents!!
If we talk about aesthetics....would you call the state Bowfell is now in, as a slight loss in aesthetics....when the enjoyment of a few winter climbers outweighs the enjoyment of litteraly thousands of rock climbers.
In reply to Calum Nicoll:
this is a nonsense statement as you don't use chalk in winter!
> (In reply to neilinut)
> [...]
>
>
>
> Chalk use is far worse than crampon scratches.
> [...]
>
>
>
> Chalk use is far worse than crampon scratches.
this is a nonsense statement as you don't use chalk in winter!
In reply to Id love to climb.....:
See here for an accurate summary of this debate http://tinyurl.com/32ebvzy
See here for an accurate summary of this debate http://tinyurl.com/32ebvzy
In reply to higherclimbingwales: I think the point he was making is that chalk is as ugly in summer as what the crampon scratches are....so that would make your statement nonsense.
In reply to Id love to climb.....:
Personally I think footpath erosion is a great eyesore than scratches on rock routes. But as has been said there is no excuse for poor technique.
Personally I think footpath erosion is a great eyesore than scratches on rock routes. But as has been said there is no excuse for poor technique.
In reply to Id love to climb.....: Get a grip FFS!
In reply to Id love to climb.....:
Yeh good one, lets just make all winter climbers do their climbs without tools and crampons...are you for real?
Using tools and poons is a different discipline, that's why there are dry-tool routes in the summer. Winter climbers have as much right to the crags as you do, you aren't special just because you choose summer, though you seem to think you are. I'm not saying that winter climbers shouldn't make every attempt to minimise their impact and they should only climb routes which are in a winter condition, however I think we can stop short of removing their tools and crampons. Also you argument makes no sense. You say there is too much traffic and then say there are only a few winter climber enjoying the crags...yeh...it's not about number anyway. The point is that everyone has a right to use the crags.
My advice...get over it or find a new hobby. If you can't get over it then at least keep it to yourself.
Yeh good one, lets just make all winter climbers do their climbs without tools and crampons...are you for real?
Using tools and poons is a different discipline, that's why there are dry-tool routes in the summer. Winter climbers have as much right to the crags as you do, you aren't special just because you choose summer, though you seem to think you are. I'm not saying that winter climbers shouldn't make every attempt to minimise their impact and they should only climb routes which are in a winter condition, however I think we can stop short of removing their tools and crampons. Also you argument makes no sense. You say there is too much traffic and then say there are only a few winter climber enjoying the crags...yeh...it's not about number anyway. The point is that everyone has a right to use the crags.
My advice...get over it or find a new hobby. If you can't get over it then at least keep it to yourself.
In reply to Removed User:
and extremely polished due to the excess in foot traffic. Its popular to climb in winter as it is in summer nowadays and the winter we have just had you should expect other rock routes to have winter ascents. The mountains are for all year round.....
> (In reply to Id love to climb.....)
>
> TO be fair Gillercombe Buttress is a bit shit...
>
> TO be fair Gillercombe Buttress is a bit shit...
and extremely polished due to the excess in foot traffic. Its popular to climb in winter as it is in summer nowadays and the winter we have just had you should expect other rock routes to have winter ascents. The mountains are for all year round.....
In reply to RickyJ634:
Winter climbing is essentially aid, which is more in the DIY camp of hobbies than it is in the sport one. Can't you just find a brick outbuilding or something?
Winter climbing is essentially aid, which is more in the DIY camp of hobbies than it is in the sport one. Can't you just find a brick outbuilding or something?
In reply to neilinut: Not quite sure that a brick outbuilding would offer quite the same level of "big mountain" experience. If it makes you feel better I tried using a tree in November, but it didn't quite go to plan and I ended up with a broken leg...so I'm sticking to nice summer routes in future :p
I'm sure that if everyone is a just a little bit tolerant we can all get a long just fine.
I'm sure that if everyone is a just a little bit tolerant we can all get a long just fine.
In reply to RickyJ634:
It was the tree spirits and their druids punishing you for attacking mother earth with pointy bits of metal
> (In reply to neilinut) Not quite sure that a brick outbuilding would offer quite the same level of "big mountain" experience. If it makes you feel better I tried using a tree in November, but it didn't quite go to plan and I ended up with a broken leg...so I'm sticking to nice summer routes in future :p
>
> I'm sure that if everyone is a just a little bit tolerant we can all get a long just fine.
>
> I'm sure that if everyone is a just a little bit tolerant we can all get a long just fine.
It was the tree spirits and their druids punishing you for attacking mother earth with pointy bits of metal
In reply to neilinut: Perhaps, perhaps. Though the tree was dead. Was...is now...was...is now...was...is.
In reply to Id love to climb.....:
Every time I climb in England, I am horrified by the amount of polish on the rock at popular venues. By comparison with the polish on, say, the Sea Wall in the Avon Gorge, a few whitish crampon scratches that don't actually change the texture of the rock are hardly a problem. But how would you get rid of polish? Take up a little chisel? Ban climbing and promote water-erosion for, ooh, a couple of hundred thousand years?
If you just think about it a little, you'll see that--unless you are simply opposed to climbing, full stop-- it's quite pointless complaining about this.
Every time I climb in England, I am horrified by the amount of polish on the rock at popular venues. By comparison with the polish on, say, the Sea Wall in the Avon Gorge, a few whitish crampon scratches that don't actually change the texture of the rock are hardly a problem. But how would you get rid of polish? Take up a little chisel? Ban climbing and promote water-erosion for, ooh, a couple of hundred thousand years?
If you just think about it a little, you'll see that--unless you are simply opposed to climbing, full stop-- it's quite pointless complaining about this.
In reply to RickyJ634:
I was being Sarcastic, tut!
> (In reply to highclimber) ..so that would make your statement nonsense.
I was being Sarcastic, tut!
In reply to Tim Chappell:
polish is the result of hundreds if not thousands of people that enjoyed the route. Some of the markings we are talking about are the result of one or two wellie footed punters. Polish modifies the route slightly. Dry tooling inpappropriatly can do so significantly, quickly, and irreversibly on some routes
polish is the result of hundreds if not thousands of people that enjoyed the route. Some of the markings we are talking about are the result of one or two wellie footed punters. Polish modifies the route slightly. Dry tooling inpappropriatly can do so significantly, quickly, and irreversibly on some routes
In reply to neilinut:
Scratches are a visual feature only. They don't change the climbability of the rock. Polish does.
Scratches are a visual feature only. They don't change the climbability of the rock. Polish does.
In reply to Tim Chappell:
does this that it should be tolerated? I think not, but there has to be some give and take really as in order to ascend some routes, particularly the harder mixed routes, there is bound to be some scrabbling on the rock.
> (In reply to neilinut)
>
> Scratches are a visual feature only. They don't change the climbability of the rock. Polish does.
>
> Scratches are a visual feature only. They don't change the climbability of the rock. Polish does.
does this that it should be tolerated? I think not, but there has to be some give and take really as in order to ascend some routes, particularly the harder mixed routes, there is bound to be some scrabbling on the rock.
In reply to Id love to climb.....:
As you pointed out above The lakes rock IS soft...just look at the worn gear placements.
So its fine for summer climbers (myself included) to scar the rock placing gear and polishing foot holds, just look napes needle. However as soon as a winter a winter climber comes along and leaves his mark its heresy.
Nonsense
Walkers erode foot paths, rock climbers polish the rock and wear gear placements, winter climbers scratch the rock (destroying turf and vegetation on routes not yet in nick is not acceptable).
If we are going to use the mountains as a playground its not for one group of users or a single individual to dictate who is damaging what. We are all guilty (myself included) and its never going to change.
So get off your soap box and stop pointing your finger as you too are guilty.
> Hi,
> After recently climbing the classic Gillercombe Buttress in the lakes the other day...I was not completely suprised to see that it had had an ascent last winter....by the nature of the marks left...the team had had a resonably hard time on it...there had seemed to be a fair ammount of scrabling going on...leaving an altogether unsitely mess from the bottom to the top of the route...
> Now I come from the premise that if we leave the route in a state pretty much as we found it...then who cares what people get upto on their ascent...taking only photos and leaving only footprints etc etc
> BUT...this is just not the case here!
> Way back in the mists of time ('86) Tony Brindle and A Moore climbed Central buttress on Scafell....without crampons to avoid damaging this wonderful and historic climb...it would I am sure be undoubtedly harder without crampons and showed an admirable ethic...
> The lakes rock IS soft...just look at the worn gear placements...the scratches will finally blend with lichen regrowth (possibly 20 yrs?)...but the scoured grooves wont....
> Why not accept a real challenge..if you want to climb these frosted climbs...then climb them without crampons...if it is in winter nick...then it is an idiot that says they are easier or doubtful nick if you climbed them without ....and who cares..you had some fine sport and left the climb in pretty the same way as you found it.
> Moss Ghyll Grooves is possibly another example of this type of frosted climb....even Botteril's Slab which is largely an icy-venture has already "been spoilt" for some as a VS experience.
> So accept the challenge, give the climb a chance and maybe we will see a time when climbing a climb like this without crampons in true winter nick...will be applauded!
> After recently climbing the classic Gillercombe Buttress in the lakes the other day...I was not completely suprised to see that it had had an ascent last winter....by the nature of the marks left...the team had had a resonably hard time on it...there had seemed to be a fair ammount of scrabling going on...leaving an altogether unsitely mess from the bottom to the top of the route...
> Now I come from the premise that if we leave the route in a state pretty much as we found it...then who cares what people get upto on their ascent...taking only photos and leaving only footprints etc etc
> BUT...this is just not the case here!
> Way back in the mists of time ('86) Tony Brindle and A Moore climbed Central buttress on Scafell....without crampons to avoid damaging this wonderful and historic climb...it would I am sure be undoubtedly harder without crampons and showed an admirable ethic...
> The lakes rock IS soft...just look at the worn gear placements...the scratches will finally blend with lichen regrowth (possibly 20 yrs?)...but the scoured grooves wont....
> Why not accept a real challenge..if you want to climb these frosted climbs...then climb them without crampons...if it is in winter nick...then it is an idiot that says they are easier or doubtful nick if you climbed them without ....and who cares..you had some fine sport and left the climb in pretty the same way as you found it.
> Moss Ghyll Grooves is possibly another example of this type of frosted climb....even Botteril's Slab which is largely an icy-venture has already "been spoilt" for some as a VS experience.
> So accept the challenge, give the climb a chance and maybe we will see a time when climbing a climb like this without crampons in true winter nick...will be applauded!
As you pointed out above The lakes rock IS soft...just look at the worn gear placements.
So its fine for summer climbers (myself included) to scar the rock placing gear and polishing foot holds, just look napes needle. However as soon as a winter a winter climber comes along and leaves his mark its heresy.
Nonsense
Walkers erode foot paths, rock climbers polish the rock and wear gear placements, winter climbers scratch the rock (destroying turf and vegetation on routes not yet in nick is not acceptable).
If we are going to use the mountains as a playground its not for one group of users or a single individual to dictate who is damaging what. We are all guilty (myself included) and its never going to change.
So get off your soap box and stop pointing your finger as you too are guilty.
In reply to Diggler: hear hear!
In reply to Id love to climb.....:
Surely this is a troll?
The ascent in '86 was in extremely questionable nick and the route has since changed- providing one of the greatest winter climbing challenges in the lakes IMO. (i didn't know they didn't use crampons, but they did climb it in summer nick the day after)
Botterill's slab climbs a different part of the face in winter than summer.
Not using crampons on ice is ridiculous.
Lakeland rock is hardly soft.
Surely this is a troll?
The ascent in '86 was in extremely questionable nick and the route has since changed- providing one of the greatest winter climbing challenges in the lakes IMO. (i didn't know they didn't use crampons, but they did climb it in summer nick the day after)
Botterill's slab climbs a different part of the face in winter than summer.
Not using crampons on ice is ridiculous.
Lakeland rock is hardly soft.
In reply to Franco C:
Presumably, since there were already crampon scratches on Gillercombe Buttress when we did it last summer.
> Surely this is a troll?
Presumably, since there were already crampon scratches on Gillercombe Buttress when we did it last summer.
In reply to Franco C: they would've used hobnailed boots. you'd have to be a fool to use just rubber.
I don't think this is a troll although the accusation that they didn't use any kind of metal in the early days is ridculous!
I don't think this is a troll although the accusation that they didn't use any kind of metal in the early days is ridculous!
In reply to Id love to climb.....:
What with the proliferation of party-political threads on here at the moment, I read this thread as: "Cameron Abuse of Classic Routes" - just one of the evils that await us perhaps
What with the proliferation of party-political threads on here at the moment, I read this thread as: "Cameron Abuse of Classic Routes" - just one of the evils that await us perhaps
In reply to Franco C:
Could be a troll as the guy states
Again I remember soloing Bowfell buttress under heavy snow and ice (about 25 yrs ago) without crampons or axes....and seeing that there was negligible crampon wear on the climb....But now....A very different matter!!
Sounds highly unlikely.. I'm sure that even the best of climbers soloing Bowfell in winter conditions without tools would be paying attention to crampon wear!!!!!
Could be a troll as the guy states
Again I remember soloing Bowfell buttress under heavy snow and ice (about 25 yrs ago) without crampons or axes....and seeing that there was negligible crampon wear on the climb....But now....A very different matter!!
Sounds highly unlikely.. I'm sure that even the best of climbers soloing Bowfell in winter conditions without tools would be paying attention to crampon wear!!!!!
In reply to Diggler: Definitely a troll!
climbing a vertical wall of crystal clear organ pipe ice.. with only walshes and bare hands.
Aye right!!
climbing a vertical wall of crystal clear organ pipe ice.. with only walshes and bare hands.
Aye right!!
In reply to Toreador: Especially as Gillercombe wasn't in for more than 2 days this winter (I went for a look in January and it was pretty bare so did Grey Knotts Face in winter instead).
In reply to SonyaD:
But lets not forget he did this 25 years ago and men where men then!!!!
Apparently the first ascensionist did it naked as the abrasive nature of clothing could damage the rock
> (In reply to Diggler) Definitely a troll!
>
> climbing a vertical wall of crystal clear organ pipe ice.. with only walshes and bare hands.
>
>
>
> Aye right!!
>
> climbing a vertical wall of crystal clear organ pipe ice.. with only walshes and bare hands.
>
>
>
> Aye right!!
But lets not forget he did this 25 years ago and men where men then!!!!
Apparently the first ascensionist did it naked as the abrasive nature of clothing could damage the rock
In reply to Tim Chappell:
Not true Tim, when a route is regularly mixed climbed especially on fine grained rock it gradually rounds off all the features, a good example of this is curved ridge. people scratch down through the snow looking for pick placements and then gradually load/test them if they fail this will round off the features (the climber with then just feel for another placement). For crampons when feet slip which the often do a similar affect occurs. Look at the old hobnailed boots summer routes also for a common similar wear pattern also.
> (In reply to neilinut)
>
> Scratches are a visual feature only. They don't change the climbability of the rock. Polish does.
>
> Scratches are a visual feature only. They don't change the climbability of the rock. Polish does.
Not true Tim, when a route is regularly mixed climbed especially on fine grained rock it gradually rounds off all the features, a good example of this is curved ridge. people scratch down through the snow looking for pick placements and then gradually load/test them if they fail this will round off the features (the climber with then just feel for another placement). For crampons when feet slip which the often do a similar affect occurs. Look at the old hobnailed boots summer routes also for a common similar wear pattern also.
In reply to Id love to climb.....:
Plastic crampons? Harder than ice, but softer than rock. Modular so you can fix new front points on for each climb (I suppose they'd get trashed pretty quickly on mixed). Might work. There're all sorts of wonderful materials now. The finger rests on my axes are plastic. They've resisted a lot of abuse over the last three years and they still look ok.
Plastic crampons? Harder than ice, but softer than rock. Modular so you can fix new front points on for each climb (I suppose they'd get trashed pretty quickly on mixed). Might work. There're all sorts of wonderful materials now. The finger rests on my axes are plastic. They've resisted a lot of abuse over the last three years and they still look ok.
In reply to Jamie Hageman: Actually forget that. It'd never work
In reply to Id love to climb.....:
I've often had a lot to say on this topic, but I really can't be @r$ed all over again!
I've often had a lot to say on this topic, but I really can't be @r$ed all over again!
Hi Sonya....
Aye it's right....there were just enough dry rock pockets showing....to climb and protect the pitch....when you looked down the pitch...you couldn't see any rock showing at all...it was pretty cool!
Aye it's right....there were just enough dry rock pockets showing....to climb and protect the pitch....when you looked down the pitch...you couldn't see any rock showing at all...it was pretty cool!
In reply to Diggler:
Highly unlikely...in your opinion.....
Nevertheless......It did happen!
> Sounds highly unlikely.. I'm sure that even the best of climbers soloing Bowfell in winter conditions without tools would be paying attention to crampon wear!!!!!
Highly unlikely...in your opinion.....
Nevertheless......It did happen!
In reply to CurlyStevo:
White magic/magic crack is a good example that has defiantly been altered by winter ascents and made harder in my opinion ! !
Aye Dan
White magic/magic crack is a good example that has defiantly been altered by winter ascents and made harder in my opinion ! !
Aye Dan
In reply to Id love to climb.....: Those marks have been there for years and are from early ascents with nailed boots,I live nearby and climb it two or three times most summers for the last 30 or so years.
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