UKC

Castel Cidwim is a fantastic crag currently languishing in obscurity just south of Snowdon.

It's routes are all stern affairs requiring proper trad climbing and commitment. Upon turning the last steep section the crag fades out into steep but easy vegetated ground.

Adding fixed/bolted belays/loweroffs to the top of routes such as The Erg, Equinox, Balance of Power and Central Wall would allow all these routes to be climbed in fantastic long single pitches.

This would enhance the venue massively whilst the inaccessible locations of the loweroffs would deter topropers. If this prevents routes falling into vegetated redundancy it can only be a good thing.

In reply to Brown:

The routes I have done there end suddenly, with a dramatic change from very steep rock to not very steep grass. You top out, belay then walk back down. Lower-offs are not needed.


Chris

In reply to Brown: The walk down was far from traumatic, and nor was the top out on Dwm.

In reply to Mark Reeves: But they and alot of other trad routes in N Wales are getting neglected because of the access and egress issues. I say bolt the lower off.

In reply to whispering nic:

So you're saying pander to laziness by dumbing-down existing routes? What about all that pesky gear placing too? Bolt them up and they'll be even more popular. If people really want to do the routes then they'll get done.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

But Balance of Power does need a couple of bolts to take the sting out of it......... Potency too, for that matter. Nice shiny lower offs and perhaps build a few ledges at the bottom so the kids can play safely, and you've got it.

In reply to jon:

Please please please - some bolts in Potency and Balance of Power then I can go and have a bash at them.......

E

In reply to Enty:

Consider it done.

In reply to Brown:

It's actually west of Snowdon.

Yours pedantically,

Mike

In reply to Enty:

Potency is a bit steep for a slab master... hows about a couple of bolt on holds on the crux. (Those who can manage without could just ignore them obviously... ) Pity Pat and I didn't realise these potential problems in the first place.

In reply to Chris Craggs: Yes, we did Curver and Vertigo in 1971 and I don't remember any problems - fantastic routes! Maybe time for a revisit.

In reply to jon:

Typical - putting classic new routes up with no consideration for anyone who can't climb as hard as you - selfish sods!!!

E

In reply to jon:

Did you get the MRT to guide you down from the top of the crag? It is rather high, at least 150ft above the base of the crag in the main part.

We must have blanked out the awfulness of the descents we did, at least four of them, unless we just jumped off, thinking it was a highball problem.

In reply to Brown: If you have to made the effort to walk to the crag then i'm sure the wlak from the top of the route shouldn't be any bother so why bolt it!!

In reply to sutty:

Sutty, I just can't comprehend the sad, pathetic attitude that seems to have taken over... letting absolutely brilliant routes just get ignored/overgrown because there's no 'fast food' descent. All those thousands of descents I made from the tops of crags in rock boots and often bare foot when the pain got too much, never diminished the enjoyment of the climbs for me. What's happening? Castell Cidwm has a host of routes that are amongst the best in N Wales. Something for everyone from The Curver VS to Potency and Light Years at E6.

Somethings people just don't think about... 1) Walking down is often quicker, 2) it's far less dangerous, 3) doesn't piss other people off who happen to be on the route and 4) there's no risk of jamming your ropes.

In reply to Brown: Fixed lower offs is a great idea and will benefit alot of crags around here. The people who are against doing this are either old farts , armchair climbers or people who never climb on these crags. I have been to every BMC meeting in the area to discuss the loweroffs of the routes in the pass, this being maby putting fixed protection to save using the trees. But as allways there are people who decline this and say that its wrong etc rah rah ramlbling!! oh and do you see there people out climbing on the crags......ehm no. They just say no to anything in the form of the development and taking climbing in Britain from the stone age. Ethics and rambling and club huts and all that shit.
Preserving the crags and the environment we climb in is the most important thing for me and i think fixed loweroffs are the way of the future- this not meaning twin bolted loweroffs at the end of the routes! meaning replaceing the role of trees and the big jungle of old tat and ironmongery you see at abseil points. and as what (brown) said enhancing grotty venues whitch requier death topouts and keeping climbing alive on neglected crags!

(Brown)- mate if your up for it ill come with you and whack a few steel re-bars in the top to make an absail station

ioan doyle

In reply to IOAN D:

Abseil station.


Chris

In reply Mike Peacock:

Good spot, do you know if the access has improved? or if its even the same land owner?

I was chatting to a local climber the other week about this spot and he was saying that 20 odd years ago the land owner would fire of his gun to deter climbers crossing his land and a mate tried to cut through that land doing a circuit of Mynydd Mawr the other night and saw all the big fencing and signs still there.

In reply to IOAN D:

You're quite a handy climber Ioan but what do you have aaginst walking off? Like Jon said in his post above?

E

In reply to Chris Craggs: clever

In reply to Enty: nothing mate, have done quite a few of them. Just think abseiling is better idea, get more routes done in a day. Just dont know why this winds so many people up? and these people usually arnt from the area and who have maby climbed there once in their life's.
Do they own them?

In reply to IOAN D:

Bit of a rant there Ioan, I take it you might be referring to me... I'd just tell you that far from fitting into one of your categories, I was with Littlejohn on the FAs of Balance of Power, Potency and Heading for Heights and have done nearly all the routes on Cidwm. The reason you don't see this old fart nowadays on these crags is that I live nearly 2000kms away in a land of stainless steel lower offs. I'm surprised at you attitude as you are obviously one of the stars of N Wales climbing (judging from Mill's photos). Sadly your argument doesn't hold water. Castell Cidwm top outs are not death. Sure there ARE crags where lower offs would be preferable - vertical choss at the top, plant life, private land etc etc......... Think again.

In reply to IOAN D:

No - and neither do you.

What gives you the right to decide that due to abseiling being quicker than walking off that permanent stations are required?

I hesitate to describe your post as one of the most stupid I've seen on here - but only because there's been some complete crap posted on here before.

At least you're honest and admit that it's pure laziness that is behind your desire for ad stations - so you get respect for that. But nothing else.

In reply to IOAN D:

What's that got to do with it. Brown is from Sheffield anyway?

An area like Snowdonia is of national importance so you can expect views from all over the UK. I think some locals are far to precious about that, we are lucky enough to live in a stunning area and have to share it with those who aren't so lucky.

In reply to IOAN D:

I do see horrific top outs as being an important part of some routes. Having climbed routes in North Pembroke requiring "rabbit hole" belays and others involving tottering jenga piles I would hate that people thought I was arguing this to reduce risk or excitement.

I strongly believe that the routes mentioned "finish" a good few meters before any belays. Having climbed Balance of Power in a single pitch I can attest to both the quality of the climbing and the difficulty dealing with that last section of vertical grass.

I did not feel that the last section was an important part of the route, the intrinsic value of the routes being run out climbing on good rock.

Having also spent an hour or so on a hanging belay on The Erg (pegs mentioned in guide now all deceased) I would like to climb that route in a single pitch as it would be a lot more comfortable and a far better route.

In reply to IainRUK: I've no idea. Every time I've approached that way I've come from Rhyd Ddu through the forest.

In reply to Brown:

I was going to have a go at you but anyone who can get a shot like this should be let off;
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ma_4Q2XW0A4/S8Hn-t8dEiI/AAAAAAAABV0/FYRRnHwqbTk/s...

In reply to whispering nic: Access to this crag is the issue, not egress. It is actually really close to the road, but due to the landowner not allowing access, it means you have to walk in from the other end of the lake, rather than the short direct approach.

In response to the pass issue further down thread: The pass is fine for abseil stations, what needs addressing is the parking, with it costing £10 pr car at PyP, more walkers are parking in the pass making cragging an issue unless you get up at 7am!

In reply to IainRUK:

No views either way on the Cidwm routes as they are waaaay out of my league.

As for access, there have been signs/fences up for the last 15 years at least. In the past, I've tended to ignore them and approach discreetly. Other option is to walk in from Rhyd Ddu end. Mind you, haven't been up there for a few years. Isn't this the sort of thing the new access agreement is supposed to take care of?

In reply to Brown:

I have done both "Potency" and "Heading For Heights" in single pitches on 60m ropes (with a lot of quickdraws), there is a plethora of placements up there. I can think of better crags to place abseil stations on, it's not exactly an arduous walk-off is it? 10minutes? In fact, is there not an abb station at the right end of the crag anyway, at the top of "Glasnost"?

To be honest you have it a lot easier in N. Wales than the mile long walk-offs in Scotland. Walking is good for you, enjoy the scenery!

In reply to whispering nic:
Not as neglected as the routes in Scotland Nicholas! Haven't noticed much of a problem recently. I like Castell cidwm quiet anyway.
PS: How goes?

In reply to zzz: You mean CRoW, they were quite careful that this land wasn't CRoW land, so access wasn't changed by that.

In reply to IainRUK:

I remember the approach always being along the far side of the lake, ever since my first visit there. When Pat and I did our routes we took the short cut as he assured me that way was OK... Presumably it's gone back to how it was before now. Or maybe he was pulling the wool over my eyes...?

In reply to jon:

It has mostly been hard of access the short way from when we went there in the 60s. There was a short period when the original person moved out when you could get there the short way but it seems it went back to private some time in the 70s.

In reply to sutty:

The year I was talking about was 1988. Pat being lazy, I guess. That was the last time I climbed there. Three years before Ioen was born... scary, eh?

In reply to Mark Reeves:

Do you not winter climb? Get up earlier to avoid the lazy walkers.

In reply to sutty:

I was last there a couple of years ago, but it seemed a pretty easy short walk in then.

Obviously I don't climb as fast as Ioan but I didn't find that it was the walk down that was the limiting factor in getting more than two routes a day done.

In reply to IOAN D:
Good point - should also install chairlifts to the bottoms of the crags which would largely eliminate the hideous path erosion, AND monetize the crags which would help both the Natl. Parks and any private investor (like the farmer at Cidwm)