UKC

Does anyone know if there are access issues at Lorry Park quarry in Matlock? Went there the other day and the wide gap at the side of the fence has been closed off with some vicious looking barbed wire.

Also looks like someone has set up a makeshift camp there.

Keen to continue work on a project there but don't want to threaten any future access.

In reply to toddm:

The make shift camp has apparently been there for years, it was certainly there a few months back.

In reply to toddm:the "camp" hasn't been there for years.. don't know what's afoot tho. go and climb there and see what happens. you can also approach through bushes further back.

hope your project isn't retrobolting "on the road". wild strawberries could do with rebolting tho, but i thought it was out of order retrobolting the 3 trad cracklines

good luck!

In reply to nickcanute:
yes completely out of order retro bolting the crack lines

In reply to Kipper-Phil Smith:

Absolutely agree. This seems to have gone reasonably unnoticed (unless I missed something?), just because its 'only' Lorry Park. It's in an unpleasant setting, but it has some stonking (trad) lines. That's not to say there def shouldn't be any bolts there, just not ones on obvious trad lines. If they got chopped, I for one would celebrate.

In reply to jonny2vests:


But would you do them? - No one had for a long time as they were full of earth and plants. The bolting hasn't so much ruined the routes, more brought them back from the dead. I know loads of keen Peak based trad climbers round here, yet none of them had bothered, and I suspect that if the bolts were removed and the mud replaced then they still wouldn't bother.

Anyway - on the access / razor wire, then you can get through higher up, or through the hedge just left of the gate.

In reply to ChrisC: I feel the same.

In reply to ChrisC:

Chris, all I'm saying is, we (me and Wil) went to look at them a while back, but the lines were wet. Then we saw the bolts and were a bit gobsmacked that mint looking cracks had been retrobolted. Will I do them as sport routes? Probably.

Would I have bothered cleaning them? Maybe, they're not exactly local though. Wil has moved there now, so he might well have bothered, but I can't say for sure.

In reply to toddm: as far as i know, its banned, but i cant see anyone stopping you. I know plenty of people who have climbed there, and do climb there, and have never heard of any issues. Its a bit like other similar quarrys in the area in that respect, ie intake, in that its banned, but people still use it. Shame about the bolted trad lines i agree, but they will undoubtedble get more ascents as bolted routes. Also, if you in matlock, with trad gear, wanting to climb limestone, why the hell would you be in lorry park? and if you are...what are you playing at?! Basically, in my view, go clip some bolts and dont worry about it.

In reply to Sam1991:

Why wouldn't you? Its a good crag with some decent trad lines.

In reply to jonny2vests:

It's a good crag with some great sport lines...

Andy F

In reply to toddm: The land under the quarry has been recently cleared of various containers and detritus. I can only imagine that the work was undertaken with a view of selling the land for development which would make access to the quarry rather difficult.

On a similar note I have seen some proposals in the local press for the development of Hall Dale Quarry.

In reply to crimple:


http://www.matlockmercury.co.uk/news/Halldale-Quarry-plans-given-backing.63...

Probably a better use of the land! Bar a couple of ok easy lines the place is a pile of choss, even the best bits are of fairly questionable stability. Have you ever looked from the top down the back of that blocky roof, I'm surprised it survived the winter!

In reply to ChrisC: I have walked along the top and looked down the back, but not recently. Fortunately it was after and not before climbing on the Spectre Wall which does have some good routes on it. Surprisingly it has managed to survive several winters. But then questionable stability and limestone quarries do tend to go hand in hand.

In reply to andy farnell:

It's a good crag which should have it's (great) trad routes reinstated as such.

There was never a valid justification for the 3 otherwise well-protected cracklines to be bolted.

In reply to crimple:
What is in the pipeline for Hale Dale? It has a few lines I would like to get ticked, am I racing the clock?
Gary

In reply to Ian Milward:
How many ascents does an unbolted 2* 'On the road' get compared to the bolted 2* 'Edge of Darkness'?

In reply to BrianR:

Is that valid justification?

Bastille doesn't get done very often these days (and relies heavily on fixed gear!).....following your logic, it would be ok to bolt it so it can get more ascents?

In reply to toddm:

There is a young couple from Derby temporarily living in the main quarry below the crag in a makeshift slum, whilst waiting for local housing assistance. They are friendly enough and quite chatty to climbers. There are also two couples living up the drive where you park. One of the couples consists of two freeloading alcoholic smackheads who are particularly aggressive and not very pleasant. There is a couple living below them who are also not very nice, always drunk and are having a bit of a spat with the young couple regarding their cat giving them fleas.
The freeloaders barred up the drive where the parking is because they had had (in his own words) "gypos, sorry travellers, wanting to tarmac the quarry and move onto it". The land owner has actually given permission to the young couple to stay there for the time being, I'm not sure of any developments with the sale of the quarry. My guess is that the freeloaders have blocked off the access because of the "gypos", but that doesn't explain the cleaning up of the shit. Incidentally, none of the characters living there have a problem with people climbing there, but I would be wary of parking there incase they think you are someone else, i.e. a gypo. He may vandalise your vehicle. Especially as he is always pissed. Access is also available through the back of harveydale quarry.
As for the retrobolting, (I'm pretty sure the lee brothers were ok with it) the lines were filthy and chocked with mud, and did not get climbed. Thats fact. From there you can make up your own mind.

In reply to bomb:

Not fact. They occasionally got climbed, just like other overlooked routes on 'out of vogue' crags. Happens all over the place. The numbers climbing at Lorry Park have already drastically reduced from 2 years ago.

No-one's disputing they're much better and likely to get more ascents when clean.

Simply cleaning them would have been a good thing to do?

I don't understand why they were bolted as well, bearing in mind there's solid gear throughout.

Leaving it as a mixed crag would have been the best option. The sport routes are great, too.

In reply to devilman: ChrisC's link gives the background but this is the latest which, on previous experience, implies that you've got time...

http://www.matlockmercury.co.uk/news/Fears-quarry-bid-could-be.6351180.jp

In reply to bomb:

Logic like that seems to suggest bolting anything that's currently dirty and 'out of fashion' whatever that means. Does that mean its ok to bolt Rivelin Quarries perhaps?

In reply to Ian Milward:

The visual impact of a crackline with bolts next to it is initially a bit shocking even on a bolted crag. But Supercrack can be laced with bomber gear and it wouldnt be desperate to place I shouldnt think. So there is scant diffrence from a climbing experience point of view between its bolted amd unbolted state except that as a bolted route you would climb it more quickly. Of course unbolted you get an E5 tick instead of a 7a one. Whoopeedoo.

As for 'simply' cleaning it - in practical terms that doesnt happen. Even at the Chee Dale cornice on bolted routes the recleaning of routes is piecemeal - as for trad routes at an (formerly) obscure Matlock quarry - forget it.

Thumbs up to JC and his gang for making it a venue worth visiting.

In reply to shark:

Mmmm.... Apart from the (remarkable, given your climbing pedigree) 'scant difference' comment, you seem to be agreeing with me that there is no reason why the Lorry Park cracks should have been bolted instead of just cleaned.

Supercrack would be more like ***E4 if properly cleaned for a trad lead? **/*** E3 for the other cracks. Add ***E3 for 'On the Road' and you've got yourself one of the best trad limestone sessions in the Peak.

Or haven't until the bolts are stripped.

10/10 to P & JC for the crag revamp. 0/10 for bolting the trad cracks.

In reply to Ian Milward:

So why didnt you clean the crag up for everyone else then ?. 0/10 for effort if you really cared about these lines. 10/10 for pontificating on the internet.

JC was an activist who put in a lot of hard work. This lends weight to the ethical/utility call he made. A further 0/10 if you strip the bolts. An easy exercise compared to bolting and cleaning.

In reply to Ian Milward:
If 3* routes on High Tor aren't attracting any traffic why do you think people would come to a dirty quarry across the road to do inferior routes. They didn’t before these routes were bolted.
They won’t if they are removed.
The relationship between sports and trad is a compromise. This is good example of where it’s worth giving a couple of routes over to sports.

If your argument were to hold any weight I’d take it away from a previously disused quarry ( that we will probably lose soon anyway ) and direct it towards the natural trad routes that have been recently bolted .

In reply to Ian Milward:


We'll have to recalibrate the * scale - what does that make Darius, Lyme Cryme, Flaky Wall, Supersonic, Tales.... *****?

While these LPQ routes are good for a Peak quarry - they're not all that when you think about it!

In reply to shark:
I probably would have done, sooner or later. Supercrack was the only route that really needed cleaning prior to an ascent as some of the smaller wire placements higher up used to get choked. The other three lines were only a bit dusty last time I did them before they were bolted (circa 2003).

(I've have since climbed them and clipped the bolts - it was convenient but much easier and, for me, a much poorer experience)

>
He still is?

I too appreciate their hard work at Long Tor and Lorry Park (with the obvious exception of the cracks). But I think you'll find he put in all that hard work fundamentally because they wanted to do the routes. The philanthropy was consequential. P & JC don't 'do' trad but clearly wanted to climb these lines, so not really a good ethical call at all as it was personally motivated.

P.S. Didn't see you in the cleaning queue either....?

In reply to toddm:

Who cares?

In reply to BrianR:

>

Like Stoney, perhaps?

In reply to Ian Milward:
I'm not aware of new bolts at Stoney. But then i'm not necessarily that up to date.

In reply to ChrisC:

Ok, I may be slightly OTT with the stars for 'Thunder Road' and 'Edge of Darkness' but see the Rockfax comments to see I'm not alone in the praise stakes. Fiend's comments are brilliant; 'an unusually traditional feel' and 'a very Brown and Whillans sport route' respectively!

Bear in mind the Rockfax stars are suggested for their uncleaned state.

'On the Road' and 'Supercrack' are 3 star routes.

In reply to BrianR:

I was alluding to the fact that 75% of Stoney was a quarry. Whats the difference, following your logic, between bolting Supercrack and bolting Bitterfingers?

In reply to Ian Milward:
I understand that you see absolutely no difference between Lorry Park and Stoney. Fair enough. We will have to agree to differ.

In reply to Ian Milward:

One difference is that people regularly climb bitterfingers in it's current state...

In reply to 1234None:

How about an 'Emotional Rescue' analogy, then?

Perhaps another significant factor is that Stoney is about 15 miles nearer to Sheffield?

But aren't these merely fickleness and convenience issues (at a particular point in time) in comparison to the more fundamental ethics of the wider Peak/inland outcrop limestone route ecosystem..?

I've stated why I think these routes were bolted. I was questioning the justification for it in a wider context.

In reply to BrianR:

I see where you're coming from, but really - at climbing-style ethics level - what's the difference?

In reply to crimple:

That is one very biased piece of reporting - almost apopeltic that someone might object to a hotel, cinema, car showrooms and leisure complex in a rural environment!

I still reckon that the Spectre and Burning Spirits are amongst the best sports routes in the peak - yes it's better not to look too closely at what's holding it up, but it held my weight! Actually it might be better if that lot did go - would leave a really fine slab !

In reply to shark: Just because the Clarks put in a lot of effort cleaning, doesn't give them the moral high ground.

Was the retrobolting raised at the peak area meeting ?

In reply to Mark Lloyd:

LPQ is a horrible place to climb, but some of the routes are ok. Supercrack is one of the best 7a's in the Peak. This says more about the quality of 7a's in the Peak than the quality of LPQ.

I for one don't care whether the cracks are bolted or trad. Climbed them once and they are not good enough to go back and do again.

I think some of you guys need to go and climb in some nice places and stop arguing about LPQ.

In reply to ChrisC: they weren't that dirty before they were bolted. the only route there which prob would have been better retrobolted was that E3 up the wafer flake cos the gear on that one was crunchy poor

In reply to Niall Grimes:

???the bmc guide editor agrees with bolts on cracklines??? shouldn't you err towards traditional climbing ethic unless there is overwhelming consensus?

In reply to craig d:

One thing that's gone without comment so far is that it wasn't just the trad cracks that were 'dirty', 'neglected' and 'never climbed' prior the the (last) revamp of the crag. No-one was visiting the place to do the sport routes either!!

However, my main concern is that bolting the cracks at LPQ sets an incredibly damaging precedent (if not firmly opposed) for other 'trad-averse' climbers to cite in relation to bolting other (neglected?) gear-protected limestone routes at other (nicer?) places in the future.

It's not exactly as if many people are shouting 'lets have less bolts' these days, rather the contrary.

In this country we haven't got the luxury of so much rock that we can afford to dis any crag that gives some decent climbing. Sport or trad, quarry or not.

It's not entirely about LPQ, its about not bolting bomber-protected cracklines.

LPQ (without the bolts in the cracks) is a good and useful mixed venue with some excellent (you disagree, others don't) sport and trad routes.

With the bolts in the cracks, is a much less attractive (sic) venue to climbers wanting to use their trad skills.

If you're capable of climbing the true sport routes at LPQ you ought to be able to climb the cracks trad.

'Bolt clippers only' get to do both now, but don't deserve the cracks. These routes hand climbers ample opportunity to protect their ascents without recourse to drilling them into submission.

If 'fiddling with gear or 'interrupting the moves' irritates you, either man up or leave it to those who prefer to do so. Don't selfishly steal others' trad experience.

Like most folks I climb with, I partcipate in both disciplines - I much prefer trad but enjoy both.

Some guys I know tend to climb only sport - even they are dismayed by the bolts in the LPQ cracks.

It's harder to persuade trad heads to climb at LPQ now, its been turned into virtually a 'sport crag' with pressure to bolt the remaining classic trad line.

These aren't routes that have become neglected due to deterioration of crucial fixed gear, etc.

Bolting the LPQ cracks ammounts to a blatant attack on UK limestone ethics, formally stated or not.

In reply to Ian Milward:

Well put Ian, we're on the same wavelength.