UKC

Who do you think the most underated lyricist is? In my opinion it's Shane Macgowan. I'd say he is up there with Bob Dylan and Bruce Springsteen.

In reply to jamiegoscote: yep. billy braggs not bad, richard thompson, paul weller...and Lemmy! Honest, he uses words well

In reply to jamiegoscote:

That's a bit of a difficult question, really.

To people who like and know The Pogues, he's not underated.

To people who've never heard The Pogues - apart from Fairytale of New York (written by MacGowan and Jem Finer) - his other stuff may be a complete and utter mystery. Jem Finer is probably the main "other" song writer for The Pogues, it wasn't all MacGowan, quite apart from all the "Traditional" songs they covered...


Myself, I can't consider MacGowan as underated, because to me he's as good as Morrisey, Justin Sullivan, Robert Smith, Kurt Cobain, Neil Young, Serj Tankian, and Zack de la Rocha...

In reply to jamiegoscote:
Tom Waits
James Murphy
Laura Nyro

In reply to jamiegoscote:
whilst i love the work of the artists already mentioned, they're hardly underrated try these out for size.
nigel blackwell
gerard langley
colin molloy

In reply to jamiegoscote:

Bonnie Prince Billy.

In reply to Dom Whillans:

Meloy surely.

I'll go along with what Dominion said about "underrated". Those who "rate" all or any of the lyricists named, do not tend to "underrate" them! Though I perhaps am simply not keeping up with a change in the definition of "underrated" - it seems now to mean "not quite as famous as some really famous people"

I give you (as I have done before):
Carla Bozulich
Adam Stephens
David McComb.

In reply to jamiegoscote:

Elvis Costello

Billy Bragg

Terry Hall

all walk allover McGowan imo

In reply to Blue Straggler:
i stand corrected...
have this as proof of his talent and by way of apologising for speeling his nome rong.
youtube.com/watch?v=5Sw61oITuts&

In reply to jamiegoscote:
I like MacGowan's lyrics but they are strong meat, a bit too strong for some on here, I think.
My mate says that when he uses words like Paks and yids, there are inverted commas round them. I don't agree, and don't value his work any the less for it.
We would need to ask the man to find out....

In reply to Dom Whillans:

Well, indeed. I have somewhat played that one to death over the last few years so I'll have to give it a bit of time off. <checks....oh yeah THAT performance was particularly cool>

Did you see them on Jools Holland early this year with Shara Worden duetting (Colin didn't look well, but she stepped up to lead the second half of some song - sorry I don't have the current album - and it was mind blowing)
In fact...oh bloody BBC have removed it from YouTube - it was The Wanting Comes in Waves segueing into something else.

In reply to Daithi O Murachu:

How is Elvis Costello an underrated lyricist?!
Or Bragg or Hall for that matter?

All three of them are generally noted more for their wordsmithery than their singing voices.

In reply to Daithi O Murachu:

Good Lyricists, but don't walk all over McGowan

"A Pair of Brown Eyes
By Shane MacGowan (1985)
One summer evening drunk to hell
I stood there nearly lifeless
An old man in the corner sang
Where the water lilies grow
And on the jukebox Johnny sang
About a thing called love
And it's how are you kid and what's your name
And how would you bloody know?
In blood and death 'neath a screaming sky
I lay down on the ground
And the arms and legs of other men
Were scattered all around
Some cursed, some prayed, some prayed then cursed
Then prayed and bled some more
And the only thing that I could see
Was a pair of brown eyes that was looking at me
But when we got back, labeled parts one to three
There was no pair of brown eyes waiting for me

And a rovin' a rovin' a rovin' I'll go
For a pair of brown eyes

I looked at him he looked at me
All I could do was hate him
While Ray and Philomena sang
Of my elusive dream
I saw the streams, the rolling hills
Where his brown eyes were waiting
And I thought about a pair of brown eyes
That waited once for me
So drunk to hell I left the place
Sometimes crawling sometimes walking
A hungry sound came across the breeze
So I gave the walls a talking
And I heard the sounds of long ago
From the old canal
And the birds were whistling in the trees
Where the wind was gently laughing

And a rovin' a rovin' a rovin' I'll go
For a pair of brown eyes"

In reply to jamiegoscote: Ian Drury (sp?)

In reply to jamiegoscote:
Too many to mention but here's a few that I admire that don't get mentioned that often in lyricist polls...

James Taylor
Carole king
Joni Mitchell
kate Bush
Jon Anderson

In reply to VolkMan:

How can ian Dury be underrated? There's a movie about him FFS!

In reply to jamiegoscote:

Joni Mitchell is in there for sure.

Paul Anka, wrote the most popular recorded song ever.

In reply to jamiegoscote:

Vanilla Ice for me.

In reply to jamiegoscote: Mark Oliver Everett. Lead Singer of the Eels

In reply to graeme jackson:

Apart from King. And Mitchell!
:-P

In reply to graeme jackson:

If that's a measure of things, then how about the film about Carole King (names changed and some fictionalisations for whatever legal reasons, but it's pretty much The Carole King Story, really)?
Grace of My Heart. It is very good.

In reply to jamiegoscote: Rod Stewart. For You Wear it Well and Every Picture Tells a Story.

In reply to jamiegoscote: not exactly underrated (they've won awards!), but Steve Knightley and Martin Simpson are two fantastic songwriters about at the moment. Try Arrogance, Ignorance and Greed or Never any good with Money, respectively.

As for Shane Macgowan, I wish certain young people would stop saying that he (a) wrote Dirty Old Town and (b) It's about Belfast/Dublin etc.

Maybe we ought to list people like Ewan McColl or Pete Seeger as under rated, bog all people seem to have heard of them!

In reply to jamiegoscote: I'm not sure he's especially underrated but I'd stick in Lou Barlow.

In reply to toad: Funny how nobody every updated McColl's lyrics:

'We'll chop you down like an old dead log....'


'... and replace you with a concrete block....'



Still like the song though.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Sounds interesting - I'll keep my eyes open for it. It hasn't really been promoted the same way the ian dury movie was though.

In reply to graeme jackson:

It's from 1996 and got approximately as wide a release as the Dury film. Probably bigger in the US (where, I imagine, the Dury film was NOT as big)

In fairness it is more heavily fictionalised - again, I'm not sure why they couldn't just do a straight Carole King film though maybe some of the less sympathetic characterisations might have brough libel suits

I don't think that it's a measure of whether someone is underrated or not though, having had a film made about them. The Dury film wasn't, surely, about his lyrics, but his lifestyle and illness and the "scene"?

In reply to jamiegoscote:
Matt Johnson of The The.

In reply to jamiegoscote:
1. Aimee Mann
2. Aimee Mann
3. Aimee Mann
4. Aimee Mann

Oh and Elvis Costello ain't bad, Jarvis Cocker had his moments too (not sure if either of these qualify as underrated though).

In reply to The Ivanator:

Lily Allen. Despite the Ivor Novello awards, the sheer raw power of her lyrics is so often overlooked.

Her gritty climb to fame is inspirational: starting with only millions of pounds to her name, a boyfriend who ran a music magazine, a father who is a famous actor, a stepfather who has been a TV comic for 20 years and a mother who was the vide-president of EMI she's climbed to near-national reknown. How ever did they find the diamond in the rough?!?!?

In reply to niggle: I'm almost moved to tears by this tale of courage and passion. Thanks.

In reply to jamiegoscote:

Ivor Cutler..

...When I go walking the roads of the world
Tenderly looking for you
What do I find but you clutching your nose
Mending your nostrils with glue.

In reply to jamiegoscote:
Jello Biafra.

In reply to niggle:

Is there some maximum threshold of background affluence/connections, beyond which one is not permitted to enter into any profession linked to this background?

In reply to jamiegoscote:

Leon Rossellson, a legend whom few seem of have heard of.

Robin Williamson too.

I'd say George Brassens, but he is recognised appropriately in his own country.

In reply to jamiegoscote:

Tracey whatshername from Everything But The Girl

Lene Marlin

Billy Joel

Axl Rose!!!!!! As well as some very Warriors of Genghis Khan style bobbins

Billy Falcon

Stine Nordestrom

Billy Jo something or other Green Day!

In reply to jamiegoscote:


The genius that is....... Des'ree


Life, oh life, oh life, oh life,
doo, doot doot dooo.
Life, oh life, oh life, oh life,
doo, doot dooo

I'm afraid of the dark,
'specially when I'm in a park
And there's no-one else around,

Ooh, I get the shivers
I don't want to see a ghost,
It's a sight that I fear most
I'd rather have a piece of toast
And watch the evening news

In reply to NorthernRock:

Stina Nordenstam perhaps?

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Andrew Eldritch

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Yeah sorry, was just struggling with iphone, and said sod it!!!!

In reply to Dom Whillans: Another vote for Nigel Blackwell, England's finest.

http://www.chrisrand.com/hmhb/

"She died with her telly on, eighty-seven and confused
With not enough hospital beds ‘cos all the money’s been used
On the end of the century party preparations
And they reckon that the last thing she saw in her life was
Sting, singing on the roof of the Barbican
Sting, singing on the roof of the Barbican"

In reply to Axel Smeets:
That's one of my favourite crap lyrics of all time! Utter dross!

In reply to jamiegoscote:

Steve Earle

In reply to jamiegoscote:

Probably my favourite lyrics:

If I should fall from grace with god
Where no doctor can relieve me
If I'm buried 'neath the sod
But the angels won't receive me

Let me go boys
Let me go boys
Let me go down in the mud
Where the rivers all run dry

This land was always ours
Was the proud land of our fathers
It belongs to us and them
Not to any of the others

Let them go boys
Let them go boys
Let them go down in the mud
Where the rivers all run dry

Bury me at sea
Where no murdered ghost can haunt me
If I rock upon the waves
No corpse can lie upon me

It's coming up three boys
Keeps coming up three boys
Let them go down in the mud
Where the rivers all run dry

If I should fall from grace with god
Where no doctor can relieve me
If I'm buried 'neath the sod
And still the angels won't receive me

Let me go boys
Let me go boys
Let me go down in the mud
Where the rivers all run dry

In reply to jamiegoscote: If I should Fall From Grace With God - The Pogues

In reply to jamiegoscote:

J. Mascis of Dinosaur Jr

In reply to Axel Smeets:

You are David Brent and I claim my five pounds

In reply to jamiegoscote:

Greg Dulli

In reply to jamiegoscote: Geezer Butler..

In reply to jamiegoscote:

Not even close to those 2, IMO.

Here's another vote for Ewan MacColl as one of the most under-rated by the general public. So many of his songs are either wrongly ascribed as "traditional" or thought to be the work of others (including Shane, who no end of people have told me wrote "Dirty Old Town").

For instance, the BBC used 3 of his songs in their recent programme on "Sea Shanties" (featuring hardly any actual shanties) without credit and giving the impression they were "trad". And I've heard "The First Time Ever I saw Your Face" ascribed to Roberta Flack, Kris Kristoffersen and Peter, Paul & Mary.

Richard Thompson's alo written some powerful stuff, again some of which he doesn't get the credit for.

In reply to Rob Naylor:


Ewan MacColl was an absolutely stunning writer. My mum and dad speak fondly of having seen him throughout a number of folk clubs in North London during the 70s folk revival.

Dirty Old Town/First Time Ever I Saw Your Face etc are like you say invariably ascribed to the wrong authors, but also the Manchester Rambler, Freeborn Man etc, songs that have made it into the collective national psyche to the extent that despite having been written by MacColl most people now think they're of a traditional origin - which to an extent I suppose they are!

Furthermore, it's interesting that the versions of Dirty Old Town and First Time' that subsequently became famous completely bypass the subtleties of the originals as sung by MacColl and Peggy Seeger respectively. Roberta Flack just doesn't seem to have been able to have managed it in quite so dynamic a fashion as Seeger did on the far far superior original, which is a shame because it's Flack's version that stuck.

----------


My vote would be for Justin Sullivan though, long underrated...

Smalltown England

Turn left at the lights about 50 yards down
There's a pub in the corner and I'll meet you inside
About quarter to eight and we'll go into town
And find out what everybody's been saying about us

Smalltown walls have eyes and ears
Stories fly thick and fast round here
Truth and lies are all the same
Whatever you do don't rock the boat
You've got to play the game, play the game


Ch: Is it a crime to want something else?
Is it a crime to believe in something different?
Is it a crime to want to make things happen?
To spit in the faces of the cynical fools



The incrowd know that the shell is thin
So they all protect the cage they're in
Get drunk and stoned and wrecked again
No tears of rage, no cries of pain
Nothing ventured, nothing gained
In smalltown England
Because the world outside the pint in hand
Is all so hard to understand
And if visions of the world come clear
They're not allowed to interfere


Ch: Is it a crime to want something else? . . .



The smell of hot food from the takeaway curry
Diesel fumes from a passing lorry
Waiting in the queue in the pouring rain
For the chip shop up on Bowling Lane
Well, last week we all got really smashed
We couldn't stand up, it was a real laugh
And this week's going to be just the same
And the next and the next, again and again
They say you've got to have fun while you're young
'Cause they can't believe there's anything else except this

In reply to jamiegoscote:

Freeborn Man - Ewan MacColl

I'm a freeborn man of the travelling people
Got no fixed abode, with nomads I am numbered
Country lanes and byways were always my ways
I never fancied being lumbered

O we knew the woods, all the resting places
And the small birds sang when winter-time was over
Then we'd pack our load and be on the road
They were good old times for a rover

There was open ground where a man could linger,
Stay a week or two, for time was not your master.
Then away you'd jog with your horse and dog
Nice and easy! No need to go faster

Now and then you'd meet up with other travellers
Hear the news or else swap family information
At the county fairs we'd be meeting there
All the people of the travelling nation

Well I've know life hard and I've known it easy
And I've cursed the life when winter days were dawning
But I've danced and sang through the whole night long
Seen the summer sunrise in the morning

All you freeborn men of the traveling people
Every tinker, rolling stone and gypsy rover
Winds of change are blowing, old ways are going
Your traveling days will soon be over

I don't think anyone ever "underrated" Ewan MacColl as a lyricist.

But now I am repeating myself.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Agree entirely, I think the point I (and others) were making is that his work (and in particular DOT) is often mis-attributed, and mis-placed.

I've no particular love for Salford. I consider myself a Lancastrian, despite what it says on my passport, but after my home town was annexed by Salford in the 1970s, we were forced (no real exaggeration there) to learn Dirty Old Town as a homage to our new motherland. And about the same time, someone did take a good sharp axe to our steelworks, so maybe there is some resonance.

In reply to jamiegoscote:

Neko Case (alt.country, for want of a better description), and Sean Daley of Atmosphere (hip hop), in particular the album 'When life gives you lemons, paint that s**t gold'.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Beg to differ. Most people I've spoken to about him outside "folky" circles have never heard of him...they invariably know several of his songs but usually swear blind they're traditional or were written by someone else.

It rankled to hear Gareth Malone using his "Shoals of Herring" as an example of a Trad Scottish fishing song on the BBC and to hear is sung in an exaggerated Scottish accent when it was written about the East Anglian herring fishery!

I've also heard it called "Shores of Erin" and ascribed to "Trad Irish"...which isn't so surprising as almost any English or Scottish folky-type song that isn't nailed down seems to be annexed by the Irish! (Black Velvet Band, Wild Rover, John Barleycorn, Fiddler's Green, etc, etc).

But for me, one of MacColls absolute best is one of his last: Joy Of Living. This should have particular resonace for climbers and mountaineers! It'll be played at my funeral.

In reply to jamiegoscote:

Joy Of Living: Ewan MacColl

Farewell you northern hills, you mountains all goodbye
Moorland and stony ridges, crags and peaks goodbye
Glyder Fach farewell, Cul Beag, Scafell, cloud-bearing Suilven
Sun-warmed rock and the cold of Bleaklow's frozen sea
The snow and the wind and the rain of hills and mountains
Days in the sun and the tempered wind and the air like wine
And you drink and you drink till you're drunk
On the joy of living

Farewell to you my love, my time is almost done
Lie in my arms once more until the darkness comes
You filled all my days, held the night at bay, dearest companion
Years pass by and they're gone with the speed of birds in flight
Our life like the verse of a song heard in the mountains
Give me your hand then love and join your voice with mine
We'll sing of the hurt and pain
And the joy of living

Farewell to you my chicks, soon you must fly alone
Flesh of my flesh, my future life, bone of my bone
May your wings be strong, may your days be long, safe be your journey
Each of you bears inside of you the gift of love
May it bring you light and warmth and the pleasure of giving
Eagerly savour each new day and the taste of its mouth
Never lose sight of the thrill
And the joy of living

Take me to some high place of heather, rock and ling
Scatter my dust and ashes, feed me to the wind
So that I will be part of all you see, the air you are breathing
I'll be part of the curlew's cry and the soaring hawk
The blue milkwort and the sundew hung with diamonds
I'll be riding the gentle wind that blows through your hair
Reminding you how we shared
In the joy of living

In reply to Rob Naylor:

That was my point! People who haven't heard of someone, can't "underrate" them. And people who know of Ewan, never seem to underrate him.

Staying stubbornly pedantic on this point of what it means to "underrate" someone, I put forward an artist who's perhaps not really well known for her lyrics.

Courtney Love.

She might not write nearly as well as MacColl or McGowan or Cave or Cohen etc, but she writes well and nobody seems to notice, what with the blustering rocktastic SOUND of Hole, and of course her personal life that overshadows everything.

In reply to jamiegoscote:

Fish: Early Marillion. Misplaced Childhood is exceptional.

Steve Harris: Iron Maidon.

In reply to jamiegoscote:

When I read the thread title I thought I'd pop in and mention Shane. However you already seem to have done so.

No-one's mentioned Eminem though. I do believe that a fair proportion of his wordsmithery is worth appreciating even if you don't like the genre in which he operates.

In reply to jamiegoscote: 3 that've already been mentioned:

Nigel Blackwell
Rod Stewart
Mark Oliver Everett (especially him)

In reply to jamiegoscote:

Richard Butler of the Psychedelic Furs

Robert Fisher of Willard Grant Conspiracy

the Reid bros of The Jesus And Mary Chain

Muttley of The Macc Lads

In reply to jamiegoscote:

cedric bixler zavala

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

Yeah, "Suffering's....gonna come...to everyone...some day" repeated 17 times in a row is genius

(I mean it. I love that song!)

In reply to Paul Atkinson:


Their eponymous debut is an absolute belter of an album. 'India' even surpasses 'I Wanna Be Adored' as far as slow openers go, top album.

Good call whover said Eminem.

In reply to Rob Naylor: I think as far as misappropriation of MacColl's work goes, it wrankles I'll agree, but perhaps he would have be pleased?

I can't remember the exact quote, but I remember reading a piece by Peggy Seeger about The Radio Ballads in which she mentions MacColl singing a song to a Yarmouth Herring Fisherman that he'd written the night before; on hearing it, the fisherman swore he'd know the song his whole life! At that, MacColl knew he'd been succesful.

So his work's immortal (as in a sense his songs have become traditional) even if his name isn't, and maybe he wasn't the sort to go in for fame anyway

John Martyn has got to be up there. Solid Air album is bloody brilliant.

In reply to jamiegoscote: Peter Andre, Lily allen, Miley Cyrus. Genius's every last one of them.

In reply to jamiegoscote: A late teturn to the thread, but I saw Chris Wood over the weekend. This guy needs much more exposure, but this isn't exactly radio friendly

youtube.com/watch?v=tI2YdHt_V7s&