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![[2009 UK Leading Champion Drew Haigh competing at Ratho, 3 kb]](http://img.ukclimbing.com/t/149590.jpg "[2009 UK Leading Champion Drew Haigh competing at Ratho, 3 kb]")
The first round of the 2010 lead climbing World Cup is set to start today, Monday the 12th of July, in Chamonix, France. No British competitors are entered in the event.
The international big hitters are all competing, with Adam Ondra hotly tipped to take the title in the men's comp.
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=56421
In reply to UKC News:
It's difficult to build a really huge indoor wall cost effectively. If you want to build a 40 metre high wall, you need a 50 metre high building to contain it, and creating that from the ground up is a massive enineering challenge.
The real genius of Ratho is not its immense size, it's the fact that it's built inside an existing quarry so two and a half of its four walls were already there. That's what made it possible to build it without a lot of clever and expensive engineering.
Ratho goes to show that it is possible to build these things (in fact it's so huge that it contains not one but three comp-height walls) but it takes some ingenuity. Whay not hold a design and build competition for architects and engineers?
It's difficult to build a really huge indoor wall cost effectively. If you want to build a 40 metre high wall, you need a 50 metre high building to contain it, and creating that from the ground up is a massive enineering challenge.
The real genius of Ratho is not its immense size, it's the fact that it's built inside an existing quarry so two and a half of its four walls were already there. That's what made it possible to build it without a lot of clever and expensive engineering.
Ratho goes to show that it is possible to build these things (in fact it's so huge that it contains not one but three comp-height walls) but it takes some ingenuity. Whay not hold a design and build competition for architects and engineers?
In reply to UKC News:
I can see that a comp wall would be great, but I can totally understand the reluctance to build a wall that is unlikely to turn a profit? What's the point? So that a handful of climbers can compete on a world stage that the vast majority of Britons have no idea exists? Even the majority of British climbers aren't that fussed about competition climbing.
However, to counter that negativity, why would this wall not make a profit? Surely there are enough climbers in Northen England that would be strong enough and keen enough to use a decent facility? I'd certainly travel a certain distance to use a truly outstanding wall. Is the problem the initial outlay for the building?
I can see that a comp wall would be great, but I can totally understand the reluctance to build a wall that is unlikely to turn a profit? What's the point? So that a handful of climbers can compete on a world stage that the vast majority of Britons have no idea exists? Even the majority of British climbers aren't that fussed about competition climbing.
However, to counter that negativity, why would this wall not make a profit? Surely there are enough climbers in Northen England that would be strong enough and keen enough to use a decent facility? I'd certainly travel a certain distance to use a truly outstanding wall. Is the problem the initial outlay for the building?
In reply to Monk:
Would it be possible to run as a charity? It's amazing to see what climbing does for some of the little terrors that turned up to Mile End when I was climbing there a few years ago: they'd be shouting and screaming and running about, but put a rope on them and they were generally focused and motivated.
Somewhere Ratho-sized could easily allow for competition-standard walls and training facilities as well as more accessible areas. I realise the initial outlay would be huge, but running it as a charity would open up loads of funding routes towards regeneration/local enterprise/youth engagement/other buzzwords, and keeping entry costs at a not-for-profit level should develop regular users.
simon
Would it be possible to run as a charity? It's amazing to see what climbing does for some of the little terrors that turned up to Mile End when I was climbing there a few years ago: they'd be shouting and screaming and running about, but put a rope on them and they were generally focused and motivated.
Somewhere Ratho-sized could easily allow for competition-standard walls and training facilities as well as more accessible areas. I realise the initial outlay would be huge, but running it as a charity would open up loads of funding routes towards regeneration/local enterprise/youth engagement/other buzzwords, and keeping entry costs at a not-for-profit level should develop regular users.
simon
In reply to UKC News:
"but our international lead climbing team is almost non-existent."
let me correct that for you Jack
"but our international senior lead climbing team is almost non-existent.
the juniors have been doing well for a number of years and we regularly get finalists in the European Youth Series and occassional finalists in the World Youth Championships.
"but our international lead climbing team is almost non-existent."
let me correct that for you Jack
"but our international senior lead climbing team is almost non-existent.
the juniors have been doing well for a number of years and we regularly get finalists in the European Youth Series and occassional finalists in the World Youth Championships.
In reply to Graeme Alderson: what then happens to the youth i.e. why does success here not then bring success at senior level?
In reply to UKC News:
Honestly, I think a Ratho-style wall would be great and would love it if someone wanted to build such a thing. Not for a second do I believe the premise that the reason the British lead team is off the pace is because of the lack of access to great walls.
It's perfectly possible to train for the lead comps on a small wall. Patxi trains largely on a bouldering style wall. Spanish champ Helena Aleman has spent most of her time training on a bouldering wall roughly the same size as the central portion of the climbing works. It ain't what you got, it's the way that you use it. If the BMC really want to support lead climbing success they should at building some cheap, small climbing-works style facilities that are focussed on training. Such a facility would be more use than a giant ratho-style wall which would cost millions and have to cater to everyone.
Honestly, I think a Ratho-style wall would be great and would love it if someone wanted to build such a thing. Not for a second do I believe the premise that the reason the British lead team is off the pace is because of the lack of access to great walls.
It's perfectly possible to train for the lead comps on a small wall. Patxi trains largely on a bouldering style wall. Spanish champ Helena Aleman has spent most of her time training on a bouldering wall roughly the same size as the central portion of the climbing works. It ain't what you got, it's the way that you use it. If the BMC really want to support lead climbing success they should at building some cheap, small climbing-works style facilities that are focussed on training. Such a facility would be more use than a giant ratho-style wall which would cost millions and have to cater to everyone.
In reply to Graeme Alderson: You are quite right Graeme, I will edit. That is what I meant.
Team listings are here on the BMC Website:
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=3503
Cheers,
Jack
PS. When are you lot at the Works going to build a lead comp wall?
Team listings are here on the BMC Website:
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=3503
Cheers,
Jack
PS. When are you lot at the Works going to build a lead comp wall?
In reply to niggle: Sounds like old airship or B-52 hangars might work, just.
In reply to midgets of the world unite:
Agreed.
Ratho's succeeding not just because it's tall and steep. It's succeeding, especially in the juniors, because there is structured, organised training in a group of motivated competative individuals led and mentored by excellent instructors who the young folks can look up to and be inspired by.
I'd speculate that as they leave the junior ranks the level of organisation and group work drops off sharply. Even Ratho have a job to do there I think but the resources are right there: Buz, Robbie, Geek, Mhairi and the other instructors climb most days and now that they've been joined by the superb Gary Vincent it would just take a little push to try out a more organised approach to see what happened.
> It ain't what you got, it's the way that you use it.
Agreed.
Ratho's succeeding not just because it's tall and steep. It's succeeding, especially in the juniors, because there is structured, organised training in a group of motivated competative individuals led and mentored by excellent instructors who the young folks can look up to and be inspired by.
I'd speculate that as they leave the junior ranks the level of organisation and group work drops off sharply. Even Ratho have a job to do there I think but the resources are right there: Buz, Robbie, Geek, Mhairi and the other instructors climb most days and now that they've been joined by the superb Gary Vincent it would just take a little push to try out a more organised approach to see what happened.
In reply to garethMottram:
Exactly - that's the kind of smart thinking we need.
> Sounds like old airship or B-52 hangars might work, just.
Exactly - that's the kind of smart thinking we need.
In reply to UKC News:
Would people be happy to see the BMC pump money into an elite training facility ?
My guess would be a resounding "no"
Would people be happy to see the BMC pump money into an elite training facility ?
My guess would be a resounding "no"
In reply to Chris the Tall:
I would.
Most developed sports have centres of excellence with the best training facilities, coaches, physios, video equipment, performance analysis gear and regimented team training.
Why should climbing be different? It may rankle with the free-spirited nature of a lot of climbers but I think we all know that if we don't organise and structure the training of elite competitors, we'll be stuck on the same merry-go-round that's been going for a hundred years: waiting for the occasional lone genius like Dawes, Moffat and Macleod who can push standards forward, then waiting decades for the rest to catch up and repeat their routes because the geniuses never got a chance to pass their gift on in a structured way.
> Would people be happy to see the BMC pump money into an elite training facility ?
I would.
Most developed sports have centres of excellence with the best training facilities, coaches, physios, video equipment, performance analysis gear and regimented team training.
Why should climbing be different? It may rankle with the free-spirited nature of a lot of climbers but I think we all know that if we don't organise and structure the training of elite competitors, we'll be stuck on the same merry-go-round that's been going for a hundred years: waiting for the occasional lone genius like Dawes, Moffat and Macleod who can push standards forward, then waiting decades for the rest to catch up and repeat their routes because the geniuses never got a chance to pass their gift on in a structured way.
In reply to UKC News: i would certainly love a comp wall in the mid area/ north-end of england!
I went to ratho last year and i loved it but the down side is it costs a fair bit if not a lot of you is going. I think the issue to do with cost is a fair point but if it can become self sufficient then there should be no issue like how most companys start off, they need to invest to generate income.
Also i dont think the main reason it should be built is to give brits a chance to go to international leading comps? (ratho has given birth to a new age of young great climbers!)
what happened to the fun of climbing on a HUGE over-hanging wall? ratho might be special in that sense for its quarry build but im sure its possible.
my 2p
I went to ratho last year and i loved it but the down side is it costs a fair bit if not a lot of you is going. I think the issue to do with cost is a fair point but if it can become self sufficient then there should be no issue like how most companys start off, they need to invest to generate income.
Also i dont think the main reason it should be built is to give brits a chance to go to international leading comps? (ratho has given birth to a new age of young great climbers!)
what happened to the fun of climbing on a HUGE over-hanging wall? ratho might be special in that sense for its quarry build but im sure its possible.
my 2p
In reply to niggle:
I'm really struggling to think of the kind of buildings that would make good comp walls: Hangars tend to be out of the way and only the really big ones are likely to be high enough which would be hideously expensive. The big airship hangars in Bedfordshire have been declared unsafe now haven't they?
Old Silos lack the width for big overhangs and the number of old quarries that people wouldn't complain about roofing are fairly limited.
Any suggestion for other structures that would work? The undersides of bridges?
I'm really struggling to think of the kind of buildings that would make good comp walls: Hangars tend to be out of the way and only the really big ones are likely to be high enough which would be hideously expensive. The big airship hangars in Bedfordshire have been declared unsafe now haven't they?
Old Silos lack the width for big overhangs and the number of old quarries that people wouldn't complain about roofing are fairly limited.
Any suggestion for other structures that would work? The undersides of bridges?
In reply to niggle:
The most important resource for Junior team members is their parents' support, both practical and financial.
> (In reply to midgets of the world unite)
>
> ... I think but the resources are right there: ...
>
> ... I think but the resources are right there: ...
The most important resource for Junior team members is their parents' support, both practical and financial.
In reply to Lurkio:
Agreed
> (In reply to niggle)
> [...]
>
> The most important resource for Junior team members is their parents' support, both practical and financial.
> [...]
>
> The most important resource for Junior team members is their parents' support, both practical and financial.
Agreed
In reply to Reach>Talent:
A climbing wall building?
Seems the norm to suggest buying shitty big old structures and converting them for use as a climbing wall under the missguided knowledge or assumption that this would be cheaper than just building a building and putting a wall in it.
> Any suggestion for other structures that would work?
A climbing wall building?
Seems the norm to suggest buying shitty big old structures and converting them for use as a climbing wall under the missguided knowledge or assumption that this would be cheaper than just building a building and putting a wall in it.
But you don't need hangar style structures - and for a comp wall etc, 20m roof height is more than adequate.
New builds are prohibitively expensive, the ideal being a big box, i.e an old factory or warehouse. All you then need is a couple of hundred thousand for a wall, a landlord willing to rent it to you at a reasonable rate, and a council willing to grant change of use from industrial to leisure. Do not underestimate the difficulty in obtaining the latter, it will be easier raising the necessary £300k for the wall itself, although I'm sure there are some sympathetic councils available. Just don't know of one!
In reply to UKC News: Not forgetting Ratho had big financial difficulties in the early days, I think it went into receivership twice and lost a lot of money. It is now being hailed as a success but financially it might look different.
In the economic climate of the present it seems unlikely that anyone will lay down the money for another wall of it's size,
In the economic climate of the present it seems unlikely that anyone will lay down the money for another wall of it's size,
In reply to Mr Plow:
So how would you suggest building a structure with a 50m high internal space in a way that's cheaper than adapting an existing one?
> Seems the norm to suggest buying shitty big old structures and converting them for use as a climbing wall under the missguided knowledge or assumption that this would be cheaper than just building a building and putting a wall in it.
So how would you suggest building a structure with a 50m high internal space in a way that's cheaper than adapting an existing one?
In reply to Mr Plow:
Sadly a new build gets ridiculously expensive. Because of height there are all kinds of planning issues, and new building regulations, which can really "try your patience". Yes there will be exceptions, but some of the associated costs can make a sound business plan for a wall a complete waste of paper. E.g. having to prepare the car park to highway standard rather than hoped for gravel; this increases cost from £15k to £140k - car park only.
Sadly a new build gets ridiculously expensive. Because of height there are all kinds of planning issues, and new building regulations, which can really "try your patience". Yes there will be exceptions, but some of the associated costs can make a sound business plan for a wall a complete waste of paper. E.g. having to prepare the car park to highway standard rather than hoped for gravel; this increases cost from £15k to £140k - car park only.
In reply to Ian W:
How about something like this
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1827
Seems to work for the Dutch
How about something like this
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1827
Seems to work for the Dutch
In reply to niggle:
Where does this 50m come from? Is the wall you're intending on building 2.5 times taller than the regulation maximum height for comp walls and twice the height of most peoples ropes?
Where does this 50m come from? Is the wall you're intending on building 2.5 times taller than the regulation maximum height for comp walls and twice the height of most peoples ropes?
In reply to Bill Davidson:
But thats outdoors. If that was a good idea around our parts, they wouldn't have put a roof on our favourite quarry!!
They've got one at blackpool, anyway!!
Hows you doing - I'm skiving, and watching the world cup chamonix on the webcast at the mo!
But thats outdoors. If that was a good idea around our parts, they wouldn't have put a roof on our favourite quarry!!
They've got one at blackpool, anyway!!
Hows you doing - I'm skiving, and watching the world cup chamonix on the webcast at the mo!
In reply to Reach>Talent:
At Cardington? One of them is still in use, it was refurbished some time ago and used by the BRE for fire testing buildings, and has since been used by warner bros (parts of batman films were filmed there). The second one is in a right state, but I believe there is a condition attached to the site stating that it has to be refurbished if the surrounding land is to be developed, and I think they may be listed builidngs? Those hangers are about 50m high I think, and would certainly have the height for a big steep, lead wall.
> (In reply to niggle)
> The big airship hangars in Bedfordshire have been declared unsafe now haven't they?
> The big airship hangars in Bedfordshire have been declared unsafe now haven't they?
At Cardington? One of them is still in use, it was refurbished some time ago and used by the BRE for fire testing buildings, and has since been used by warner bros (parts of batman films were filmed there). The second one is in a right state, but I believe there is a condition attached to the site stating that it has to be refurbished if the surrounding land is to be developed, and I think they may be listed builidngs? Those hangers are about 50m high I think, and would certainly have the height for a big steep, lead wall.
In reply to Ian W:
What about Kendal ?
Highest wall I've ever climbed on, and still doesn't utilise the full height of the building
What about Kendal ?
Highest wall I've ever climbed on, and still doesn't utilise the full height of the building
In reply to Mr Plow:
I think you may be wrong about comp wall heights there. As the article says, Ratho is the only international comp standard wall in the UK, that's the point. If 20m was all that was required there would be dozens of comp walls in the UK.
Oh, and try climbing on a big comp wall sometime. There's a good reason why you don't need a rope double the length of the wall but I'll let you work it out for yourself.
> Where does this 50m come from? Is the wall you're intending on building 2.5 times taller than the regulation maximum height for comp walls and twice the height of most peoples ropes?
I think you may be wrong about comp wall heights there. As the article says, Ratho is the only international comp standard wall in the UK, that's the point. If 20m was all that was required there would be dozens of comp walls in the UK.
Oh, and try climbing on a big comp wall sometime. There's a good reason why you don't need a rope double the length of the wall but I'll let you work it out for yourself.
In reply to Phil79:
Yes, I remember seeing something about one of them being declared unsafe, but I didn't realise the other had been refurbished.
Yes, I remember seeing something about one of them being declared unsafe, but I didn't realise the other had been refurbished.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
It will soon I believe.
> (In reply to Ian W)
> What about Kendal ?
>
> Highest wall I've ever climbed on, and still doesn't utilise the full height of the building
> What about Kendal ?
>
> Highest wall I've ever climbed on, and still doesn't utilise the full height of the building
It will soon I believe.
In reply to UKC News: We already have a 20m high hugly overhanging comp spec wall in northen england. Its in blackpool and almsot noone knows about it. Has routes up to 8b and has held the BLCC's a couple of times.
In reply to Lord_ash2000: perfect for training on in the winter?!
In reply to UKC News:
could it be that maybe the lack of a wall (i thought england had a few?) is not the problem.....maybe you're just crap.
could it be that maybe the lack of a wall (i thought england had a few?) is not the problem.....maybe you're just crap.
In reply to niggle:
A nice attempt to back-track and make me look foolish but to quote you from earlier "40m high" (not length of route)
Look I'm not trying to be an arse, i think the main reason we don't have these walls is that when a wall does go up the owners want to make as much money as they can. "Awesome" stockport could be easily house a comp wall but it would be a waste of space. (as far as the owners are concerned)
> (In reply to Mr Plow)
> Oh, and try climbing on a big comp wall sometime. There's a good reason why you don't need a rope double the length of the wall but I'll let you work it out for yourself.
A nice attempt to back-track and make me look foolish but to quote you from earlier "40m high" (not length of route)
Look I'm not trying to be an arse, i think the main reason we don't have these walls is that when a wall does go up the owners want to make as much money as they can. "Awesome" stockport could be easily house a comp wall but it would be a waste of space. (as far as the owners are concerned)
In reply to niggle: The IFSC state that the height of a lead comp wall must be between 12 and 18 meters with the length of the route at least 15 meters (I'll let you work that one out).
The point is that enormous walls are not essential training facilities for the world class. The reason there are no world class lead comp climbers in Britain is because they're not good enough.
The point is that enormous walls are not essential training facilities for the world class. The reason there are no world class lead comp climbers in Britain is because they're not good enough.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
ditto sunderland.
Prob for tall buidings / walls is that to build a 25m x 10m section takes 250sq m of wall.
15 x 10m = 15 sq m, = 3/5 the cost for the same climber income.......often better to keep capital cost / risk down, especially if its your own money at stake......
ditto sunderland.
Prob for tall buidings / walls is that to build a 25m x 10m section takes 250sq m of wall.
15 x 10m = 15 sq m, = 3/5 the cost for the same climber income.......often better to keep capital cost / risk down, especially if its your own money at stake......
In reply to douglas:
Okay, then answer my previous question: if that's the case why are there not dozens of comp quality walls in the UK? Are there other requirements not being met?
> The IFSC state that the height of a lead comp wall must be between 12 and 18 meters with the length of the route at least 15 meters (I'll let you work that one out).
Okay, then answer my previous question: if that's the case why are there not dozens of comp quality walls in the UK? Are there other requirements not being met?
In reply to douglas:
Not sure thats completely true, but it does boil down to commitment. Maybe when our athletes get good enough, they expect too much in the way of support, and feel isolated when it isn't forthcoming? Maybe we are too much of an island, and don't look beyond our own shores? Although the BMC are changing that with exchange training camps. There are other nations with current world champions whos governing bodies give less than the BMC.
I think it is getting better over here, and only a matter of time.....we aren't as far off as some think.
Not sure thats completely true, but it does boil down to commitment. Maybe when our athletes get good enough, they expect too much in the way of support, and feel isolated when it isn't forthcoming? Maybe we are too much of an island, and don't look beyond our own shores? Although the BMC are changing that with exchange training camps. There are other nations with current world champions whos governing bodies give less than the BMC.
I think it is getting better over here, and only a matter of time.....we aren't as far off as some think.
In reply to niggle:
I would suggest that whilst there may not be "dozens", there are more comp quality walls than people think......
Start a list?????
Ratho,
Sunderland,
Newcastle,
Awesome Walls Liverpool,
Westway,
Leeds......
I would suggest that whilst there may not be "dozens", there are more comp quality walls than people think......
Start a list?????
Ratho,
Sunderland,
Newcastle,
Awesome Walls Liverpool,
Westway,
Leeds......
In reply to Mr Plow:
Then answer the question: you said that buying old structures to house climbing walls was "misguided" and that "just building a building and putting a wall in it" would be cheaper. So how would you do that more cheaply than a refurbishment? You must know something that most of the climbing wall owners in the UK don't; an awful lot of them seem to be in converted churches and other large existing buildings.
And isn't the best way to make lots of money by providing a really great service which lots of people will pay to use?
> Look I'm not trying to be an arse
Then answer the question: you said that buying old structures to house climbing walls was "misguided" and that "just building a building and putting a wall in it" would be cheaper. So how would you do that more cheaply than a refurbishment? You must know something that most of the climbing wall owners in the UK don't; an awful lot of them seem to be in converted churches and other large existing buildings.
> i think the main reason we don't have these walls is that when a wall does go up the owners want to make as much money as they can.
And isn't the best way to make lots of money by providing a really great service which lots of people will pay to use?
In reply to Ian W:
So you're saying the original article is wrong when it says, "The only international comp standard wall in the UK is Ratho"?
> there are more comp quality walls than people think......
So you're saying the original article is wrong when it says, "The only international comp standard wall in the UK is Ratho"?
In reply to UKC News:
Having read the autobiographies of people Jerry Moffat, the old school climbers that were the best in the world at the time trained by climbing on anything and everything it seems; traversing walls around sheffield schools and climbing on home made walls in basements because there were very few purpose built facilities. Surely the climbers of today just need to show some creativity and they could work something out on a smaller wall. I think spending a fortune on any elite sporting facility in the current economic situation is really not acceptable when people are worried about such basic facilities like education and healthcare provision.
Having read the autobiographies of people Jerry Moffat, the old school climbers that were the best in the world at the time trained by climbing on anything and everything it seems; traversing walls around sheffield schools and climbing on home made walls in basements because there were very few purpose built facilities. Surely the climbers of today just need to show some creativity and they could work something out on a smaller wall. I think spending a fortune on any elite sporting facility in the current economic situation is really not acceptable when people are worried about such basic facilities like education and healthcare provision.
In reply to UKC News:
Does it matter that we haven't sent anyone? Even if we did, we wouldn't even be sending our very best sport climbers, only the best of the ones who are willing to compete.
Nobody is really that interested. How many people entered the senior male british leading championships last year? If I was to hazard a guess, I would say no more than 40. You get more people at the local quiz night than that!
I could be wrong, perhaps there were hundreds, but I doubt it.
Does it matter that we haven't sent anyone? Even if we did, we wouldn't even be sending our very best sport climbers, only the best of the ones who are willing to compete.
Nobody is really that interested. How many people entered the senior male british leading championships last year? If I was to hazard a guess, I would say no more than 40. You get more people at the local quiz night than that!
I could be wrong, perhaps there were hundreds, but I doubt it.
In reply to niggle:
A few folk might need/like to train on 15m long overhanging routes, but most climbing wall punters would never touch them. So for most walls it just isn't worth it, even if you had the space.
And if you're talking about an International comp standard wall, there is a lot more to it than the cost of the wall itself. If you are going to build one, you are going to want to host international comps, so you need a venue and infrastructure that can support that, which includes having a speed wall as well.
> (In reply to douglas)
>
> [...]
> why are there not dozens of comp quality walls in the UK?
>
> [...]
> why are there not dozens of comp quality walls in the UK?
A few folk might need/like to train on 15m long overhanging routes, but most climbing wall punters would never touch them. So for most walls it just isn't worth it, even if you had the space.
And if you're talking about an International comp standard wall, there is a lot more to it than the cost of the wall itself. If you are going to build one, you are going to want to host international comps, so you need a venue and infrastructure that can support that, which includes having a speed wall as well.
In reply to Morgan Woods: have to agree with Morgan here and Mark's post (the correct facilities and training resources are whats needed surely?)
Patxi es maquina! not because he's got access to a big wall but because he wants it and sacrifices for it.
take a look at what other (tiny) countries do - do they have huge venues dotted all over the place? i doubt it yet they still 'churn' out climbing monsters
what we really need (and i think everyone knows this) is some sun-kissed mega crags a la Ceuse, Oliana, Rodellar et al. then everyone would be super-psyched and pulling hard all the time in great weather. sadly that isnt going to happen...
Patxi es maquina! not because he's got access to a big wall but because he wants it and sacrifices for it.
take a look at what other (tiny) countries do - do they have huge venues dotted all over the place? i doubt it yet they still 'churn' out climbing monsters
what we really need (and i think everyone knows this) is some sun-kissed mega crags a la Ceuse, Oliana, Rodellar et al. then everyone would be super-psyched and pulling hard all the time in great weather. sadly that isnt going to happen...
In reply to niggle:
I'd probably cocncur that at the mo', Ratho is the only place in the UK that can host a full international comp. However, there are others that could host a lead only comp, to international standard, although you might want to apply a lick of paint on some of them.... I'm currently watching the Chamonix world cup on a webcast, and they've built an outdoor temporary structure (at least it looks temporary.....) for the event. I suspect there are some UK walls that could be modified to be able to host an international comp (Sunderland could easily, for a local example). The problem is always going to be capital outlay and attracting sponsorship for the event etc. We managed it ok for the bouldering world cup, so given the willpower, I'm sure it could be done for the leading world cup. I'm old enough to remember Leeds 1989....(it was '89, wasn't it....).
But being able to host one, and train athletes for one are two completely different things.
I'd probably cocncur that at the mo', Ratho is the only place in the UK that can host a full international comp. However, there are others that could host a lead only comp, to international standard, although you might want to apply a lick of paint on some of them.... I'm currently watching the Chamonix world cup on a webcast, and they've built an outdoor temporary structure (at least it looks temporary.....) for the event. I suspect there are some UK walls that could be modified to be able to host an international comp (Sunderland could easily, for a local example). The problem is always going to be capital outlay and attracting sponsorship for the event etc. We managed it ok for the bouldering world cup, so given the willpower, I'm sure it could be done for the leading world cup. I'm old enough to remember Leeds 1989....(it was '89, wasn't it....).
But being able to host one, and train athletes for one are two completely different things.
In reply to Ian W:
It's not just Leeds either - there was a World cup in Birmingham in the 90s too. The UK just seems to have dropped off the radar a bit.
It's not just Leeds either - there was a World cup in Birmingham in the 90s too. The UK just seems to have dropped off the radar a bit.
In reply to Ian W:
Is that a list of walls that meet the criteria for hosting international climbing events or just a list of walls you happen to like and are 'quite big'?
> I would suggest that whilst there may not be "dozens", there are more comp quality walls than people think......
>
> Start a list?????
>
> Ratho,
> Sunderland,
> Newcastle,
> Awesome Walls Liverpool,
> Westway,
> Leeds......
>
> Start a list?????
>
> Ratho,
> Sunderland,
> Newcastle,
> Awesome Walls Liverpool,
> Westway,
> Leeds......
Is that a list of walls that meet the criteria for hosting international climbing events or just a list of walls you happen to like and are 'quite big'?
In reply to Monk:
True - but you never know - the boulder wc events and the skymasters at the outdoor show at the NEC are always v popular. THe NEC is big enough to host a lead / speed comp, and at that show in particular, there are always massive crowds to watch, both climbers and none climbers. You know, it wouldn't surprise me if the organisers have looked into it at some time or another........
True - but you never know - the boulder wc events and the skymasters at the outdoor show at the NEC are always v popular. THe NEC is big enough to host a lead / speed comp, and at that show in particular, there are always massive crowds to watch, both climbers and none climbers. You know, it wouldn't surprise me if the organisers have looked into it at some time or another........
In reply to Tyler:
Simply the start of a list of walls that are big enough with enough scope for route setting. Also the end of a list if nobody adds to it!! These are just ones I can think of immedialtely. There will also be loads that I haven't been to, and some i have been to but didn't write down.
Simply the start of a list of walls that are big enough with enough scope for route setting. Also the end of a list if nobody adds to it!! These are just ones I can think of immedialtely. There will also be loads that I haven't been to, and some i have been to but didn't write down.
In reply to Ian W:
Oh OK, I didn't realise you knew the required dimensions for an international comp wall. Still I'm surprised they'd sanction such events on a featured wall with nowhere for an audience to sit.
> Simply the start of a list of walls that are big enough with enough scope for route setting
Oh OK, I didn't realise you knew the required dimensions for an international comp wall. Still I'm surprised they'd sanction such events on a featured wall with nowhere for an audience to sit.
In reply to UKC News:
The wall in Chamonix is facing more or less south. Today in Vallorcine it wass 32°C at midday. Good luck....
The wall in Chamonix is facing more or less south. Today in Vallorcine it wass 32°C at midday. Good luck....
In reply to Tyler:
Which one of those is featured? Yes, bits of some of them are, but not all......Spectators - hmmm, could be an issue. But bear in mind, no international comp is currently in the planning at any of those venues, except Ratho, so it doesn't need immediately addressing.
Which one of those is featured? Yes, bits of some of them are, but not all......Spectators - hmmm, could be an issue. But bear in mind, no international comp is currently in the planning at any of those venues, except Ratho, so it doesn't need immediately addressing.
In reply to Ian W:
The Westway. Surely the only section that could be described as a potential comp wall is the featured overhang? Nothing else overhangs enough, does it?
> (In reply to Tyler)
>
> Which one of those is featured? Yes, bits of some of them are, but not all......Spectators - hmmm, could be an issue.
>
> Which one of those is featured? Yes, bits of some of them are, but not all......Spectators - hmmm, could be an issue.
The Westway. Surely the only section that could be described as a potential comp wall is the featured overhang? Nothing else overhangs enough, does it?
I simply think there has been a shift of interest to bouldering at some point and its only now the interest is slowy shifting back to lead or atleast a balance on both style with our younger generation e.g. juniors doing very well...i don't think its training walls, there are lots of "WALLS" out there. it really doesn't matter of the height or style of a wall. if someone use's their creativity, then can do whatever they want with a wall.. e.g. venus & serena williams training in the bronx with drive by shoooting happening in the corner and tennis courts that are smaller size than the standard size tennis court.... my 2 cent for the day
In reply to UKC News: There are lots of Big walls in the north! Kendal is one that springs to mind not to mention Edinburgh! Come on
In reply to UKC News:
Hey, ive seen a lot of comments about the facility that is needed rather than what routes are needed within the facility. What i mean is the hardest routes in the uk walls are about 8b, now on the international comp circuit that is sub standard when the top senior climbers are onsighting 8c or 8c+.
Lots of people that i have met from the comp circuit train on small but steep circuit boards where any length of circuit can be created these facilities also have circuits and routes of much harder grades, i think this is important to create an idea of the level that needs to be achieved.A bar for juniors and seniors to aspire to.
We have some excellent junior potential that i think will be slowed in their progress due to the lack of harder routes in the walls and hard circuits in the bouldering walls, once they reach 8b the only other alternative is to make circuits. So really i think we have the right facilities in the height and steepness of walls we just dont use the facilities in the right way.
Hey, ive seen a lot of comments about the facility that is needed rather than what routes are needed within the facility. What i mean is the hardest routes in the uk walls are about 8b, now on the international comp circuit that is sub standard when the top senior climbers are onsighting 8c or 8c+.
Lots of people that i have met from the comp circuit train on small but steep circuit boards where any length of circuit can be created these facilities also have circuits and routes of much harder grades, i think this is important to create an idea of the level that needs to be achieved.A bar for juniors and seniors to aspire to.
We have some excellent junior potential that i think will be slowed in their progress due to the lack of harder routes in the walls and hard circuits in the bouldering walls, once they reach 8b the only other alternative is to make circuits. So really i think we have the right facilities in the height and steepness of walls we just dont use the facilities in the right way.
In reply to Monk:
Cant remember - you may well be right. What about that concrete thingy outside?
Anyway, I think the wrong end of a not particularly well formed stick may have been grabbed here, and the main issue has been lost. We have one place, Ratho, well able to host international comps. The main issue, however, is getting people to the top whilst wearing a GB vest, and do they have enough places to train for that type of event. My assertion is that yes they do, even if you couldn't hold a comp at a particular wall next weekend. It takes guts, willpower and sheer hard work, just like it does to get to the top in all walks of life. And the provision of world class facilities doesn't guarantee that by a long chalk. The willingness to get to those facilities as often as possible, and make do with whatever is available when you can't get to them is paramount. I know of one family that have relocated to a different country to be nearer better training facilities (but have the money to do so), and one family who live virtually all the time in a camper van travelling to train all over europe, and they are not wealthy at all, just mega motivated.
Cant remember - you may well be right. What about that concrete thingy outside?
Anyway, I think the wrong end of a not particularly well formed stick may have been grabbed here, and the main issue has been lost. We have one place, Ratho, well able to host international comps. The main issue, however, is getting people to the top whilst wearing a GB vest, and do they have enough places to train for that type of event. My assertion is that yes they do, even if you couldn't hold a comp at a particular wall next weekend. It takes guts, willpower and sheer hard work, just like it does to get to the top in all walks of life. And the provision of world class facilities doesn't guarantee that by a long chalk. The willingness to get to those facilities as often as possible, and make do with whatever is available when you can't get to them is paramount. I know of one family that have relocated to a different country to be nearer better training facilities (but have the money to do so), and one family who live virtually all the time in a camper van travelling to train all over europe, and they are not wealthy at all, just mega motivated.
In reply to Monk: Yea it was a good event I worked for Lyon Equipment at time. It was crazy getting the wall built and then taken down without the fines for over running.
In reply to Tom Bolger:
Agree entirely - again referring to my German friends, their walls don't want to set 8b / c routes as they are of limited commercial value, but are willing to let the comp types set their own routes - I'm sure our wall owners would be happy to do the same. At least we are now more aware of the level of the o/seas climbers and what to aspire to, and how to get there. It ain't happening overnight though!
Agree entirely - again referring to my German friends, their walls don't want to set 8b / c routes as they are of limited commercial value, but are willing to let the comp types set their own routes - I'm sure our wall owners would be happy to do the same. At least we are now more aware of the level of the o/seas climbers and what to aspire to, and how to get there. It ain't happening overnight though!
In reply to niggle:
I would say that the correct sentence should be "the only venue suitable to hold an IFSC World Cup" as
a) "international comp standard" is a bit meaningless as you could easily hold a lead masters event at say the Leeds Wall or The Foundry (or others) but you couldn't hold a World Cup there
b) there is more to being a WC venue than the wall eg audience capacity. The Works comp wall is good enough to host a WC but the audience capacity isn't adequate.
> (In reply to Ian W)
>
> [...]
>
> So you're saying the original article is wrong when it says, "The only international comp standard wall in the UK is Ratho"?
>
> [...]
>
> So you're saying the original article is wrong when it says, "The only international comp standard wall in the UK is Ratho"?
I would say that the correct sentence should be "the only venue suitable to hold an IFSC World Cup" as
a) "international comp standard" is a bit meaningless as you could easily hold a lead masters event at say the Leeds Wall or The Foundry (or others) but you couldn't hold a World Cup there
b) there is more to being a WC venue than the wall eg audience capacity. The Works comp wall is good enough to host a WC but the audience capacity isn't adequate.
In reply to Jack Geldard - Editor - UKC:
I could tell you but then I would have to kill you
> (In reply to Graeme Alderson)
> PS. When are you lot at the Works going to build a lead comp wall?
> PS. When are you lot at the Works going to build a lead comp wall?
I could tell you but then I would have to kill you
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
Having been at a few BRYCS finals over the years I'd have to agree totally with Graeme! It was like the Black Hole of Calcutta at most of the venues!
EICA Ratho is still open for climbing when any events are on, it swallows them!
> (In reply to niggle)
> [...]
>
> I would say that the correct sentence should be "the only venue suitable to hold an IFSC World Cup" as
> a) "international comp standard" is a bit meaningless as you could easily hold a lead masters event at say the Leeds Wall or The Foundry (or others) but you couldn't hold a World Cup there
> b) there is more to being a WC venue than the wall eg audience capacity. The Works comp wall is good enough to host a WC but the audience capacity isn't adequate.
> [...]
>
> I would say that the correct sentence should be "the only venue suitable to hold an IFSC World Cup" as
> a) "international comp standard" is a bit meaningless as you could easily hold a lead masters event at say the Leeds Wall or The Foundry (or others) but you couldn't hold a World Cup there
> b) there is more to being a WC venue than the wall eg audience capacity. The Works comp wall is good enough to host a WC but the audience capacity isn't adequate.
Having been at a few BRYCS finals over the years I'd have to agree totally with Graeme! It was like the Black Hole of Calcutta at most of the venues!
EICA Ratho is still open for climbing when any events are on, it swallows them!
In reply to Bill Davidson:
I'd also agree!!
I don't think there's any real disagreement - we have 1 (permanent) wall able to host events, other events in places a temp wall could be built, (but how many events would there be to justify more than Ratho) and enough venues adequate for training purposes.....
I'd also agree!!
I don't think there's any real disagreement - we have 1 (permanent) wall able to host events, other events in places a temp wall could be built, (but how many events would there be to justify more than Ratho) and enough venues adequate for training purposes.....
In reply to UKC News: I've always assumed that for senior Brits competing in indoor lead events isn't a good way to make a living out of climbing, or progress their climbing career?
In reply to UKC News: I think it's worth pointing out that a big reason Ratho isn't making a profit is its inaccessibility from Glasgow and Edinburgh.
It's not too hard to get to if you have a car (although it's still a bit of a treck) but it's almost completely inaccessible by public transport from Glasgow and pretty bad from Edinburgh.
It's possible a wall in a better location could make more money.
It's not too hard to get to if you have a car (although it's still a bit of a treck) but it's almost completely inaccessible by public transport from Glasgow and pretty bad from Edinburgh.
It's possible a wall in a better location could make more money.
In reply to Lurkio:
You've just described the average UK wall, most of them have around 15m or more of overhanging routes.
> (In reply to niggle)
> [...]
>
> A few folk might need/like to train on 15m long overhanging routes, but most climbing wall punters would never touch them. So for most walls it just isn't worth it, even if you had the space.
> [...]
>
> A few folk might need/like to train on 15m long overhanging routes, but most climbing wall punters would never touch them. So for most walls it just isn't worth it, even if you had the space.
You've just described the average UK wall, most of them have around 15m or more of overhanging routes.
In reply to niggle:
40m???
Whilst I like Ratho, I wouldn't describe a crag that no longer gets climbed, a building that seeps as 'genius'.
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> It's difficult to build a really huge indoor wall cost effectively. If you want to build a 40 metre high wall, you need a 50 metre high building to contain it, and creating that from the ground up is a massive enineering challenge.
>
> It's difficult to build a really huge indoor wall cost effectively. If you want to build a 40 metre high wall, you need a 50 metre high building to contain it, and creating that from the ground up is a massive enineering challenge.
40m???
> The real genius of Ratho is not its immense size, it's the fact that it's built inside an existing quarry so two and a half of its four walls were already there.
Whilst I like Ratho, I wouldn't describe a crag that no longer gets climbed, a building that seeps as 'genius'.
In reply to niggle:
I'm intrigued, I've climbed on plenty of these things and I always seemed to need a rope that was roughly double the length. Do you top out or something?
> (In reply to Mr Plow)
>
> Oh, and try climbing on a big comp wall sometime. There's a good reason why you don't need a rope double the length of the wall but I'll let you work it out for yourself.
>
> Oh, and try climbing on a big comp wall sometime. There's a good reason why you don't need a rope double the length of the wall but I'll let you work it out for yourself.
I'm intrigued, I've climbed on plenty of these things and I always seemed to need a rope that was roughly double the length. Do you top out or something?
In reply to jonny2vests:
Pythagoras knew the score.
> (In reply to niggle)
> [...]
>
> I'm intrigued, I've climbed on plenty of these things and I always seemed to need a rope that was roughly double the length. Do you top out or something?
> [...]
>
> I'm intrigued, I've climbed on plenty of these things and I always seemed to need a rope that was roughly double the length. Do you top out or something?
Pythagoras knew the score.
In reply to jonny2vests: The bit they were leaving you to work out is that on a very steep comp wall, the height of the wall is not the same as the length of the routes, you can easily climb say 30m on a 50m rope and still get back down to the floor without any dangerous acceleration near the end.
In reply to UKC News: Nothing like portraying a negative image for the British team!
In reply to UKC News: Personally I dont think its a matter of training facilities, its down to support both physically and financially. If anyone is willing to help support THE TEAM then we might start seeing more results.
In reply to niggle:
>waiting for the occasional lone genius like Dawes, Moffat and Macleod who can push standards forward, then waiting decades for the rest to catch up and repeat their routes because the geniuses never got a chance to pass their gift on in a structured way.
Right. Because the absence of a giant competition wall is exactly what's been preventing Johnny from 'passing his gift on in a structured way'.
jcm
>waiting for the occasional lone genius like Dawes, Moffat and Macleod who can push standards forward, then waiting decades for the rest to catch up and repeat their routes because the geniuses never got a chance to pass their gift on in a structured way.
Right. Because the absence of a giant competition wall is exactly what's been preventing Johnny from 'passing his gift on in a structured way'.
jcm
In reply to UKC News:
The grandly named Welsh International Climbing Center (or Summit as it was recently known) is pretty big and sports a rather large over hanging wall. I'm fairly sure that it was in excess of 20M. But again like Ratho it's had no end of financial problems. I think it's closed at least twice in the past. It's currently closed now and god knows when it's going to re-open.
The grandly named Welsh International Climbing Center (or Summit as it was recently known) is pretty big and sports a rather large over hanging wall. I'm fairly sure that it was in excess of 20M. But again like Ratho it's had no end of financial problems. I think it's closed at least twice in the past. It's currently closed now and god knows when it's going to re-open.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Yeah, I noticed that. He's full of it.
> (In reply to niggle)
>
> Right. Because the absence of a giant competition wall is exactly what's been preventing Johnny from 'passing his gift on in a structured way'.
>
> jcm
>
> Right. Because the absence of a giant competition wall is exactly what's been preventing Johnny from 'passing his gift on in a structured way'.
>
> jcm
Yeah, I noticed that. He's full of it.
In reply to @ndyM@rsh@ll and Serpico:
I reckon comp routes tend to be around 30 degrees overhanging (I've done quite a few over the years). Ok they'll have bits where they're more and Ratho has that hinged thingy which is a proper roof at full tilt. But assuming a siimple case of a 40m route overhanging 30 degrees all the way, you'd need a rope of:
Cos 30 * 40m = Vertical height = 34m.
So a 6m difference. My words were 'roughly double the length', I think that counts. Obviously stretch will help too.
And Serpico, sorry to be a pedant, but Pythagoras' formula isn't much use here.
> ...you can easily climb say 30m on a 50m rope and still get back down to the floor without any dangerous acceleration near the end.
I reckon comp routes tend to be around 30 degrees overhanging (I've done quite a few over the years). Ok they'll have bits where they're more and Ratho has that hinged thingy which is a proper roof at full tilt. But assuming a siimple case of a 40m route overhanging 30 degrees all the way, you'd need a rope of:
Cos 30 * 40m = Vertical height = 34m.
So a 6m difference. My words were 'roughly double the length', I think that counts. Obviously stretch will help too.
And Serpico, sorry to be a pedant, but Pythagoras' formula isn't much use here.
In reply to niggle:
Agree with your main points Mr Niggle, but believe me when i say that building the wall inside the quarry meant a huge amount more 'clever and expensive' engineering than if it had been put inside a more conventional structure. Also, the walls there are 'only' 25m high (although some routes are longer given overhanging walls and indirect lines. You don't need a 50m high space (which would be enormous!)
Agree with your main points Mr Niggle, but believe me when i say that building the wall inside the quarry meant a huge amount more 'clever and expensive' engineering than if it had been put inside a more conventional structure. Also, the walls there are 'only' 25m high (although some routes are longer given overhanging walls and indirect lines. You don't need a 50m high space (which would be enormous!)
In reply to jonny2vests:
Back to skool!
Pythagoras for a triangle of 30/60/90 degree angles has side ratio's of 1:root3:2
so if the hypotenuse is a scaled up multiple of "2", that would make the opposite side the same multiple of root3. 40 is 20 times 2 so the adjacent side is 20 times root3. 40 +20root3 is therefore the ropelength required in the above example.
By Serpico's pythagoras.
> (In reply to @ndyM@rsh@ll and Serpico)
> [...]
>
> I reckon comp routes tend to be around 30 degrees overhanging (I've done quite a few over the years). Ok they'll have bits where they're more and Ratho has that hinged thingy which is a proper roof at full tilt. But assuming a siimple case of a 40m route overhanging 30 degrees all the way, you'd need a rope of:
>
> Cos 30 * 40m = Vertical height = 34m.
>
> So a 6m difference. My words were 'roughly double the length', I think that counts. Obviously stretch will help too.
>
> And Serpico, sorry to be a pedant, but Pythagoras' formula isn't much use here.
> [...]
>
> I reckon comp routes tend to be around 30 degrees overhanging (I've done quite a few over the years). Ok they'll have bits where they're more and Ratho has that hinged thingy which is a proper roof at full tilt. But assuming a siimple case of a 40m route overhanging 30 degrees all the way, you'd need a rope of:
>
> Cos 30 * 40m = Vertical height = 34m.
>
> So a 6m difference. My words were 'roughly double the length', I think that counts. Obviously stretch will help too.
>
> And Serpico, sorry to be a pedant, but Pythagoras' formula isn't much use here.
Back to skool!
Pythagoras for a triangle of 30/60/90 degree angles has side ratio's of 1:root3:2
so if the hypotenuse is a scaled up multiple of "2", that would make the opposite side the same multiple of root3. 40 is 20 times 2 so the adjacent side is 20 times root3. 40 +20root3 is therefore the ropelength required in the above example.
By Serpico's pythagoras.
In reply to Robertostallioni:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
> [...]
>
> Back to skool!
>
Ok, I stand corrected, but thats hardly general, it just happens to fit my example.> [...]
>
> Back to skool!
>
In reply to UKC News:
There are plenty of new currently unoccupied warehouses in the Bradley area of Huddersfield which would comfortably house a competition standard wall, with plenty of parking as well as lots of room for spectators. And since Huddersfield needs a new wall....Any takers(investors)?
There are plenty of new currently unoccupied warehouses in the Bradley area of Huddersfield which would comfortably house a competition standard wall, with plenty of parking as well as lots of room for spectators. And since Huddersfield needs a new wall....Any takers(investors)?
In reply to UKC News:
Flame me, but...
I'm far from convinced by the argument that new walls are needed. The comment in the original article that any new wall would need to be subsidised got me. Climbing (all sports) require participation more than anything. If you have more participation, then comp teams would get more bodies, if thats what rocks your boat. Comp walls dont increase participation. I can't help but feel that the entire argument is based on a focus, from those involved, on international comp climbing above all else. I don't think its correctly focused. If my kids start climbing, I'd rather they spent their weekends in the mountains, on crags, than in Ratho. I'd rather more McofS and BMC money and time was directed here, running real rock classes, or working to improve access, or subsidising huts & bothies. That will protect the long term future of the way we spend our time far more than trying to get some kid to turn into a potential european champion ever will.
By way of example, Malcolm Smith once won international bouldering events. He also climbed Hubble. He didn't have Ratho, just his homemade wall in his bedroom. And when he climbed 9a last week, the article mentioned Hubble, not the competitions. Today Adam Ondra is famous more for his outdoor routes than for his competition climbing. So why should Manchester city council subsidise a comp wall?
Flame me.
Flame me, but...
I'm far from convinced by the argument that new walls are needed. The comment in the original article that any new wall would need to be subsidised got me. Climbing (all sports) require participation more than anything. If you have more participation, then comp teams would get more bodies, if thats what rocks your boat. Comp walls dont increase participation. I can't help but feel that the entire argument is based on a focus, from those involved, on international comp climbing above all else. I don't think its correctly focused. If my kids start climbing, I'd rather they spent their weekends in the mountains, on crags, than in Ratho. I'd rather more McofS and BMC money and time was directed here, running real rock classes, or working to improve access, or subsidising huts & bothies. That will protect the long term future of the way we spend our time far more than trying to get some kid to turn into a potential european champion ever will.
By way of example, Malcolm Smith once won international bouldering events. He also climbed Hubble. He didn't have Ratho, just his homemade wall in his bedroom. And when he climbed 9a last week, the article mentioned Hubble, not the competitions. Today Adam Ondra is famous more for his outdoor routes than for his competition climbing. So why should Manchester city council subsidise a comp wall?
Flame me.
In reply to jonny2vests:
I don't believe the average UK wall has 15m long routes, overhanging or otherwise, but that wasn't my point.
> (In reply to Lurkio)
> [...]
>
>
> You've just described the average UK wall, most of them have around 15m or more of overhanging routes.
> [...]
>
>
> You've just described the average UK wall, most of them have around 15m or more of overhanging routes.
I don't believe the average UK wall has 15m long routes, overhanging or otherwise, but that wasn't my point.
In reply to Lurkio:
Most of the main ones do which most (me and you included Tim!! ) go to do.
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
> [...]
>
> I don't believe the average UK wall has 15m long routes, overhanging or otherwise, but that wasn't my point.
> [...]
>
> I don't believe the average UK wall has 15m long routes, overhanging or otherwise, but that wasn't my point.
Most of the main ones do which most (me and you included Tim!! ) go to do.
In reply to mav: Agreed. It is to do with participation and if team member has to pay for themselves to go to competitions, well numbers are obviously going to suffer with no additional financial help. We all have jobs and rent/mortgages. Britain has a massive potential to Produce European champions, we just need to support them. I am a competition climber myself and have seen very young juniors come out to be very strong climbers and would love nothing more than to see them go as far as they can. There will always be a debate between the outdoors and competition climbing, but there has only been positive effects from Brits doing well in International competitions.
In reply to the inspiral carpet:
What about the new sports centre that is due for completion in 2008 i think ...
> (In reply to UKC News)
> And since Huddersfield needs a new wall....Any takers(investors)?
> And since Huddersfield needs a new wall....Any takers(investors)?
What about the new sports centre that is due for completion in 2008 i think ...
In reply to grubes:
From what I remember of the drawings it really isn't all that big, maybe the same climbing area as present, but there will be little in the way of room for spectators, though I may be wrong?
Still it's time we had a wall comparable to those in the surrounding areas, Leeds wall, MCC, The Foundry etc...
From what I remember of the drawings it really isn't all that big, maybe the same climbing area as present, but there will be little in the way of room for spectators, though I may be wrong?
Still it's time we had a wall comparable to those in the surrounding areas, Leeds wall, MCC, The Foundry etc...
In reply to the inspiral carpet:
The new design has been up about 18 months. From memory their is going to be a bouldering room, a training room and a top rope/lead room.
I think it will still only be about 12m tall but don't hold me to that (currently 8-10m max). I think there is 1 table for spectators planned.
However I still cant see the new sports centre being built in the next 5-10 years.
The new design has been up about 18 months. From memory their is going to be a bouldering room, a training room and a top rope/lead room.
I think it will still only be about 12m tall but don't hold me to that (currently 8-10m max). I think there is 1 table for spectators planned.
However I still cant see the new sports centre being built in the next 5-10 years.
In reply to leahc:Hi Leah, would you agree that a lot of younger (and in fact older) route competion climbers in Britain simply get a little bored by it eventually, I know a few ex competition climbers who have expressed this sentiment, as soon as the fun and social element was lost so was their motivation to participate? I would agree that financial backing has an impact on this.
As they got older and gained a little more perspective maybe they realised that there just isn't the market in the UK to generate enough income/ sponsorship to warrant the sacrifices (both financial and otherwise) needed to really succeed and so they concentrated more and more on the aspects of climbing they enjoyed more; cragging, and trips away with friends.
Basically I agree with you that without enough support for the team 'we' won't succeed and ultimately this starts with financial support, but it seems that UK market just isn't substantial enough, surely this is also why we have so few full time professional climbers too.
Personally I'm not interested in competition climbing or how we do in them internationally and I don't wish my BMC membership to help pay for it, I don't mean that offensively, it's just totally alien to my climbing, or why I support the BMC, a view unfortunately for 'the team' held by many climbers and perhaps indicative of our national perchant for outdoor climbing. So maybe there should be a separate non BMC body for UK competition climbing responsible for itself and it's funding, whether there is a a big enough market to support this is unfortunately questionable.
Jon R
As they got older and gained a little more perspective maybe they realised that there just isn't the market in the UK to generate enough income/ sponsorship to warrant the sacrifices (both financial and otherwise) needed to really succeed and so they concentrated more and more on the aspects of climbing they enjoyed more; cragging, and trips away with friends.
Basically I agree with you that without enough support for the team 'we' won't succeed and ultimately this starts with financial support, but it seems that UK market just isn't substantial enough, surely this is also why we have so few full time professional climbers too.
Personally I'm not interested in competition climbing or how we do in them internationally and I don't wish my BMC membership to help pay for it, I don't mean that offensively, it's just totally alien to my climbing, or why I support the BMC, a view unfortunately for 'the team' held by many climbers and perhaps indicative of our national perchant for outdoor climbing. So maybe there should be a separate non BMC body for UK competition climbing responsible for itself and it's funding, whether there is a a big enough market to support this is unfortunately questionable.
Jon R
In reply to UKC News: I'm confused:
In the news article the following statement made:
The only international comp standard wall in the UK is Ratho, near Edinburgh.
A quick look at the IFSC 2010 rule book reveals the following:
Page 15 4.1.2
"Lead competitions shall take place on purpose-designed, artificial climbing walls having a minimum height of 12 metres, which shall permit routes to be constructed with a minimum length of 15 metres and a minimum width of 3 metres for each route".
There are numerous walls in N England that meet these requirements therefore making the statement above apparently false.
In the article the question is posed:
Is it time for a competition training wall in Northern England?
I appreciate that the walls typically used in competitions will be steeper and longer than the IFSC minimum requirements but surely the likes of Sunderland and Leeds are suitable for training assuming routes of a sufficiently high standard are set?
Or is the main overhang at Leeds just not steep enough? The barrel at Sunderland just not long enough?
The comments above about these venues being unsuitable for hosting comps are irrelevant as the article is making the case for a training facility.
Mark
In the news article the following statement made:
The only international comp standard wall in the UK is Ratho, near Edinburgh.
A quick look at the IFSC 2010 rule book reveals the following:
Page 15 4.1.2
"Lead competitions shall take place on purpose-designed, artificial climbing walls having a minimum height of 12 metres, which shall permit routes to be constructed with a minimum length of 15 metres and a minimum width of 3 metres for each route".
There are numerous walls in N England that meet these requirements therefore making the statement above apparently false.
In the article the question is posed:
Is it time for a competition training wall in Northern England?
I appreciate that the walls typically used in competitions will be steeper and longer than the IFSC minimum requirements but surely the likes of Sunderland and Leeds are suitable for training assuming routes of a sufficiently high standard are set?
Or is the main overhang at Leeds just not steep enough? The barrel at Sunderland just not long enough?
The comments above about these venues being unsuitable for hosting comps are irrelevant as the article is making the case for a training facility.
Mark
In reply to The Mole:
as per my post a long way above, there are more than enough training facilities; its nice to be able to get to Ratho regularly (we are lucky in that its only 2.5 - 3 hours away), but adequate walls are availaboe - maybe what lets them down is routes of comp standard / style, but i'm sure if the wall owners / managers were asked, they'd be reasonably happy to oblige. We've asked in the past and never really had a negative response. Just cos an international comp can't / won't be held at a wal, doesn't mean it can't be used for training.
as per my post a long way above, there are more than enough training facilities; its nice to be able to get to Ratho regularly (we are lucky in that its only 2.5 - 3 hours away), but adequate walls are availaboe - maybe what lets them down is routes of comp standard / style, but i'm sure if the wall owners / managers were asked, they'd be reasonably happy to oblige. We've asked in the past and never really had a negative response. Just cos an international comp can't / won't be held at a wal, doesn't mean it can't be used for training.
In reply to chummer: Hi Chummer, yes i suppose poeple do get to the point where theyr not psyched anymore. We'v all been there with something in our lives. I personally have been contacting numerous uk based companies to help with financial sponsorship for the team, as i understand the BMC has other things to contribute too. As yet no luck. Its just hard to get anyone interested it seems. But il carry on, as the day we do funding hopefully it was see massive improvement. I know not everyone likes competition climbing and fair play its not everyone's bag, but i love ir=t and will try to support and help the team in anyway i can.
Its just a shame when you go away to comps and you see other teams with numerous coaches and physio's etc and we make our way there, find our own accommodation, sort ourslevesout. Our team manager Nick doesnt get paid for his commitment to the team either. He does it because he wants too.
It would just be nice one day to have external support.
Its just a shame when you go away to comps and you see other teams with numerous coaches and physio's etc and we make our way there, find our own accommodation, sort ourslevesout. Our team manager Nick doesnt get paid for his commitment to the team either. He does it because he wants too.
It would just be nice one day to have external support.
In reply to leahc:
I understand that the minds of BMC members are split in regards to supporting competition climbing through subs. Access issues etc are obviously vitaly important to us climbers. I can understand why people may have concerns about much needed finances being directed elsewhere.
I do however feel saddened by the lack of support for our competition teams. Outdoor climbing is my thing but I would very much like to see our teams able to attend comps etc and wish them every success.
Would it be possible to have the option of paying a slightly higher sub (voluntarily) with the excess going towards supporting the UK team? I would be happy to chuck in an extra £10 a year to get behind our competition climbers.
The only problem I see is that, with it being a voluntary contribution, the majority of members may not give a second thought.
I understand that the minds of BMC members are split in regards to supporting competition climbing through subs. Access issues etc are obviously vitaly important to us climbers. I can understand why people may have concerns about much needed finances being directed elsewhere.
I do however feel saddened by the lack of support for our competition teams. Outdoor climbing is my thing but I would very much like to see our teams able to attend comps etc and wish them every success.
Would it be possible to have the option of paying a slightly higher sub (voluntarily) with the excess going towards supporting the UK team? I would be happy to chuck in an extra £10 a year to get behind our competition climbers.
The only problem I see is that, with it being a voluntary contribution, the majority of members may not give a second thought.
In reply to The Mole:
The maybe several walls in the UK that have the correct dimensions specified by the IFSC, but none of them have the whole package of being steep enough, having no grooves, or opportunities for bridging/rests or are wide enough to run 6 routes at once up - take the old comp. wall at ratho for example, awesomely steep and wide wall, but it had too many grooves and slabs for competitors to rest on.
There is also things like the ability to run national/international comps. by having spectator space, a good isolation area, being able to get competitors from isolation to the bottom of the wall without seeing the wall etc. The climbing centre needs the whole package to be able to classed as an International standard wall, and EICA has all this.
It is not just the dimensions of the wall that is important, the main wall at Ratho is 17m tall and 15m wide and overhangs by 15m, this is pretty much the minimum for international competition climbing these days and there is no wall in the UK that has a wall that steep.
I hope that all makes sense.
Cheers
Rob
The maybe several walls in the UK that have the correct dimensions specified by the IFSC, but none of them have the whole package of being steep enough, having no grooves, or opportunities for bridging/rests or are wide enough to run 6 routes at once up - take the old comp. wall at ratho for example, awesomely steep and wide wall, but it had too many grooves and slabs for competitors to rest on.
There is also things like the ability to run national/international comps. by having spectator space, a good isolation area, being able to get competitors from isolation to the bottom of the wall without seeing the wall etc. The climbing centre needs the whole package to be able to classed as an International standard wall, and EICA has all this.
It is not just the dimensions of the wall that is important, the main wall at Ratho is 17m tall and 15m wide and overhangs by 15m, this is pretty much the minimum for international competition climbing these days and there is no wall in the UK that has a wall that steep.
I hope that all makes sense.
Cheers
Rob
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