UKC

Design of Dmm Dragons

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 FreshSlate 17 Jul 2010
My biggest problem with the design is that they went from this design:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=48937

to the thumb grip design (that allowed them to have greater strength with the extendable sling) to gain a pathetic one inch of length over the camalots.

So basically any situation where you would extend a camalot you'd have to extend a dragon aswell, so forget about leaving your quickdraws at the bottom. The camalot also has the choice of having it shorter (krab on thumb loop then longer (krab on sling). So extra complexity and design work carried out by dmm (to keep strength and the doubled sling) to gain no real advantage. You could say they're cheaper but you'll have to send them back to dmm after 5 years to get them reslung so no real savings in the long run.

Although on a slightly different note, clipping into a dmm dragon doubled up is as good as clipping into the thumb loop on the camalots (for the whinging aid climbers in america to who this is important to and made a big fuss on their forums when they first were announced)

Also they have more appealing look than the camalots (slightly) and both sets of cams look better than friends.

This is from the perpective of a someone eyeing up a new set of cams and wished the decision was a little easier.

Am I wrong? I could conceed that because the dyneema is floppier and the springs are stronger there is less risk of walking and need of extention (but we must also consider rope drag).

Anecdotal evidence from dragon users is very welcome if they would comment please .

So I have a just answered my own argument? What do you guys think?
 Edvin m 17 Jul 2010
In reply to FreshSlate: I bought a set a couple of month ago as and I really agree with you that it's a shame they decided to ditch the thumbloop, couldn't they just have added a few grams of alumnium to the end of the thumploop to stop it from collapsing?

But while I almost always put an extra sling on camalots to stop them from walking I almost never does this on the dragons due to the floppy dyneema sling so atleast they got that part right!
OP FreshSlate 17 Jul 2010
In reply to Edvin m: So your reason for disliking the removal of the thumb loop is for comfort reasons? Or that your more likely to drop one?

Do you believe the dragon would benefit of a inch or two of length on the sling and do you ever leave the sling in doubled up mode or do you extend them of the time?

Oh btw I believe the slings on the torque nuts are just about bang on, although the pulling through is a little better on the cams.
 Edvin m 17 Jul 2010
In reply to FreshSlate: Yes, I would much rather have the thumbloop because it makes placing the cam easier, sometimes the slings get in the way and especially when wearing gloves(winterclimbing) the thumbloop makes them much more secure to hold and place.


In the current configuration I think the sling is about just the right length, perhaps an inch longer would be better but it's nothing that bothers me. Ohh.. and when it's extended, it's not a "pathetic inch longer" than the camalots, it's more like 4 or 5 inches. Unextended, they are slightly shorter. The only time when I'm not extending it is probably when I'm setting up anchors


The only downside with using a thumbsling and an extendable sling is that it's gonna make the cam really long when it's hanging on your harness if you want any real extendability.
OP FreshSlate 17 Jul 2010

>
> In the current configuration I think the sling is about just the right length, perhaps an inch longer would be better but it's nothing that bothers me. Ohh.. and when it's extended, it's not a "pathetic inch longer" than the camalots, it's more like 4 or 5 inches.

I've compared them side by side the same size and extended the dmm is a inch longer than the THUMB SLING on the camalot, i'm not talking about the loop.(Should've took a picture in the shop but you're welcome to take your own)

Yeah with the thumb loop that's the general feeling but at least the thumb stop seems better than a friend.
 gethin_allen 18 Jul 2010
In reply to FreshSlate:
I've found the doubled over sling on my friends torque nuts to be a pain to both the leader and the second. I like the shape of the nuts but would prefer to buy them on a standard bit of dyneema like hexcentrics or otherwise, in the larger sizes at least, the holes could be bigger to make things easier.
Re, the dragons. I've only got one camalot and that's the massive size 6 so I can't really give an opinion on the whole range, but, on the 6 I find the stem is a bit too flexy, is this the case on the size 6 dragon?
 jkarran 18 Jul 2010
In reply to FreshSlate:

Surely it's a good thing they aren't a straight clone of the Camalot, this way at least you have a choice. If you prefer the Camalot, buy the Camalot, if you prefer the Dragon, buy the Dragon. In reality there will be b***** all difference between them as tools for climbing.

jk
dan 18 Jul 2010
In reply to FreshSlate: I normally use friends but over the years have used most camming devices last weekend I tried a couple of dragons and apart from the funky extender sling on them like ahs been said there is next to no difference in them
In reply to FreshSlate and Edvin M:

You guys don't get laid very often do you?
 @ndyM@rsh@ll 18 Jul 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: Hahahahaa.
 Edvin m 18 Jul 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: Hey, I'm a gear whore! No need for that disgusting exchange of body liquids :P
 Harry Holmes 18 Jul 2010
In reply to FreshSlate: i always take pleasure in placing dragons. its like placing the big purple hex, placing a dragon just makes the climb complete
 Si dH 18 Jul 2010
In reply to jkarran:
Disagree. I find both a doubled sling and thumb loop to be significant advantages, and there is no cam out there now that Im aware of that has both. My old rock empire cams did as do wild country zeros, but no modern full size ones now. Personally the thumb loop is more crucial to me and I will stick with camalots, but if a new model came out with both I would buy some.
In reply to FreshSlate: Jesus Christ....budding obsessed gear designers, unite!!

I have Dragon Cams, I just don't think the "flaws" presented in this thread are a problem. I find them easy to grip, manipulate, and place whilst hanging on with my other three points of contact, no more fiddly than any other piece of gear.
 Ollie B 18 Jul 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

fair play tom, hit it on the head.
 IainWhitehouse 19 Jul 2010
In reply to FreshSlate:
>
> [...]
>
> I've compared them side by side the same size and extended the dmm is a inch longer than the THUMB SLING on the camalot, i'm not talking about the loop.(Should've took a picture in the shop but you're welcome to take your own)

I just compared every size. You have a funny perception of an inch.

 IainWhitehouse 19 Jul 2010
In reply to gethin_allen: Gethin, there isn't a dragon equivalent to a Camalot6 or Friend6. The Dragon6 is the size of a camalot4.
 deepsoup 19 Jul 2010
In reply to FreshSlate:
I use mostly Camalots, a mixture of C4's and the older version without the thumb-loop. When I'm using them, I hardly notice whether I'm placing a cam with a thumb-loop or without, so I find it very strange that the thumb loop is such a big deal to so many people.
 GrahamD 19 Jul 2010
In reply to deepsoup:

Especially given that the Friend is almost the definitive cam to most Brits.

Like you, I can't ever think of an occasion where I've thought the thumb loops on the odd C4 I've got added anything over the older Camalots or Friends
Tam Stone 19 Jul 2010
In reply to IainWhitehouse:
> (In reply to r0x0r.wolfo)
> [...]
>
> I just compared every size. You have a funny perception of an inch.

To make your contribution useful, could you share with us the actual difference please?
 Si dH 19 Jul 2010
In reply to GrahamD:
It depends what you're used to. Except for one friend, every cam Ive ever owned (rock empire ones first and now camalots) has had a thumb loop, and as a result whenever I've needed to use one without a thumb loop in anger Ive felt as if I was about to drop it. If I climbed with a set of non-thumb-loop cams for a while Id probably get used to them, but those with a thumb loop are still preferable. They're just more secure for manhandling quickly because it doesnt matter at all if your thumb slips.
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

> You guys don't get laid very often do you?

Hi Tom,

A sentiment I have used on yourself, several years ago I believe!

Does this mean you'll miss your girlfriend, whilst away on your Himalayan trip????

Best wishes

Stuart
 speekingleesh 19 Jul 2010
In reply to FreshSlate:
>You could say they're cheaper but you'll have to send them back to dmm after 5 years to get them reslung so no real savings in the long run.
>

I don't follow. Being able to have DMM resling them is surely an advantage as opposed Black Diamond who don't offer this service (in the UK)?
 IainWhitehouse 19 Jul 2010
In reply to Tam Stone:
> (In reply to IainWhitehouse)
> To make your contribution useful, could you share with us the actual difference please?

By eye, I'd say about three inches but, as other posters have pointed out, the overall length including stem isn't terribly relevant. The object of extending gear (whether nuts or cams) usually* isn't to make it longer, but to make it more flexible, so it doesn't lift or walk.

* I realise that total length is important if extending from out the back of a chimney but in that case I'd be using a slingdraw whether the gear was a Dragon, a camalot or a kettle which may or may not have belonged to someone called Morley Woods.
Tam Stone 19 Jul 2010
In reply to IainWhitehouse: Thanks.
 owen1988 19 Jul 2010
In reply to FreshSlate:

The main gripe people seem to have with dragons is the lack of thumb loop, increasing the risk of dropping it if used in a hurry. Could this problem not be solved with some Araldite and pieces of moderately flexible plastic stuck on top of the stem? Or is there an obvious reason why not that I have not thought of, as that is what I would do otherwise...
 deepsoup 19 Jul 2010
In reply to owen1988:
> ... is the lack of thumb loop, increasing the risk of dropping it if used in a hurry.

I just can't see this at all. I can be pretty clumsy. I've fumbled and dropped the odd wire in my time, but never even come close to dropping a cam. Meaning no disrespect to those who want the thumb loop so badly, but that risk of dropping it just seems, well, imaginary to me.

Or if it isn't, you must just constantly be chucking wires and hexes away. Bet that gets expensive after a while.
In reply to FreshSlate:
I think that if this is all you have to worry about you are a very lucky man, or you are incredibly clumsy.

I've climbed with rigid friends and flexi friends for 20 years and have never dropped one or even come close to dropping one as far as I can remember.

I now have a set of Dragons, I like them and they are better to handle than my old friends.

I imagine a thumb loop could possibly help in winter climbing, but for summer use I really can't see any disadvantage worth worrying about with the Dragons.
OP FreshSlate 20 Jul 2010
> I don't follow. Being able to have DMM resling them is surely an advantage as opposed Black Diamond who don't offer this service (in the UK)?

True but it's generally a thicker and more durable sling. Good point.

In reply to the lainwhitehouse: 3 inches? You must have a funny perception of an inch. Lol. Please post a pic as you're in the best position, and if they're that much longer I'll buy them off you (crag x, when I save up the money) as my biggest complaint will have been null.

> I think that if this is all you have to worry about you are a very lucky man, or you are incredibly clumsy.

Yeah I think we're lucky to have some competition and variations of gear. I'm not worried about dropping things but it seems for some people that the thumb loop is important for handling issue.

 Alkis 25 Jul 2010
In reply to FreshSlate:
> [...]
>
> True but it's generally a thicker and more durable sling. Good point.
>

Thicker, yes, more durable, depends on the use. Dyneema is more abrasion resistant than nylon. I fell on a Camelon 0.4 placed in a grit crack and the rock cut straight through more than half the width of the sling as the cam turned into position dragging it for a cm or two.

I'd have to replicate the circumstances to find out if dyneema would have performed any better, which for obvious reasons I'm not going to do. Just saying that thicker doesn't automatically mean more durable.
 Guy Atkinson 26 Jul 2010
In reply to FreshSlate:

I've not used Dragons .. i don't think, but I've used camalots and i've found that the thumb loop can get in the way and make them awkward to place/retrieve in certain sized cracks where you really need your hand at a certain angle. Although you might not think it's a very common problem it's definitely happened to me about half the times i've used them.
 CurlyStevo 26 Jul 2010
In reply to speekingleesh:
> (In reply to r0x0r.wolfo)
> >You could say they're cheaper but you'll have to send them back to dmm after 5 years to get them reslung so no real savings in the long run.
> [...]
>
> I don't follow. Being able to have DMM resling them is surely an advantage as opposed Black Diamond who don't offer this service (in the UK)?

Yes they do the uk suppliers handle it for you . That said it takes several weeks as they ship um to USA and is much more pricey.
 Chi Cheng 13 Aug 2010
In reply to FreshSlate:

OK here is a few pictures of a Dragon against a Camalot

http://img337.imageshack.us/i/31072010057.jpg/
http://img185.imageshack.us/i/31072010059.jpg/
http://img85.imageshack.us/i/31072010058.jpg/

as you can see you gain 5 to 6 inches by extending the sling; not the one as stated by opening post.

As there is no thumb loop AID climber clipping into the doubled sling loose 4 inches in hight.

Hope this clears thing up
Chi Cheng

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