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![[David Lama, 1 kb]](http://img.ukclimbing.com/t/150736.jpg "[David Lama, 1 kb]")
Swiss climber, David Lama has now decided to comment on what happened during his attempt to free climb the Compressor route on Cerro Torre, Patagonia.In short, Lama says he regrets what happened, that this wasn't the plan and that he has learned from the mistakes made. He had his hands and...
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=56957
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
"he understands why the guides opted for bolts instead as removable gear and inexperienced climbers, i.e the film crew, is a dangerous mix."
if that was/is the problem, ain't there film crews who are also experienced climbers??????
"he understands why the guides opted for bolts instead as removable gear and inexperienced climbers, i.e the film crew, is a dangerous mix."
if that was/is the problem, ain't there film crews who are also experienced climbers??????
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
Look, it's not the first time RB have been caught up in an unethically sound wrangle.
Just who these rock stars (or any pro athelete for that matter) decide to accept sponsorship from is their business.
But if you fly with the crows etc
Total cop-out imo and lends no further credence to their profoundly wanton acts.
Look, it's not the first time RB have been caught up in an unethically sound wrangle.
Just who these rock stars (or any pro athelete for that matter) decide to accept sponsorship from is their business.
But if you fly with the crows etc
Total cop-out imo and lends no further credence to their profoundly wanton acts.
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
Where has he posted these 'comments'. Seems like a new load of red-bull shit to me. Lets do a bit of analysis.
'he regrets what happened, that this wasn't the plan' - Quite obviously the plan wasn’t to put his whole sponsored climbing carrier in danger
'He had his hands and mind full' - Nice line but if he was heading up the expedition he would have already decided before they reached base camp weather they were going to be bolting or not. If the bolt kit was packed then he has no excuse.
'handled by a team of three mountain guides' - Pass the buck you little .... I take it your handler booked them and told them what you wanted of them.
'inexperienced climbers' - What the hell was he thinking taking inexperienced people onto Cerro Torre, this is almost as short-sighted as the bolts. Again commercialism over common sense.
'the plan always was to remove everything and leave the mountain as clean as possible' - This is the same crap argument he gave at the very start, again he has completely missed the point. Once the holes are drilled they can never be rectified to a natural 'clean' state
'he will use a different tactic if he were to try it again. No bolts, even if this would make filming impossible' - I take it he won’t be going again then.
Cant his press office make him give at least one vaguely truthful answer rather then this slimy rubbish
Where has he posted these 'comments'. Seems like a new load of red-bull shit to me. Lets do a bit of analysis.
'he regrets what happened, that this wasn't the plan' - Quite obviously the plan wasn’t to put his whole sponsored climbing carrier in danger
'He had his hands and mind full' - Nice line but if he was heading up the expedition he would have already decided before they reached base camp weather they were going to be bolting or not. If the bolt kit was packed then he has no excuse.
'handled by a team of three mountain guides' - Pass the buck you little .... I take it your handler booked them and told them what you wanted of them.
'inexperienced climbers' - What the hell was he thinking taking inexperienced people onto Cerro Torre, this is almost as short-sighted as the bolts. Again commercialism over common sense.
'the plan always was to remove everything and leave the mountain as clean as possible' - This is the same crap argument he gave at the very start, again he has completely missed the point. Once the holes are drilled they can never be rectified to a natural 'clean' state
'he will use a different tactic if he were to try it again. No bolts, even if this would make filming impossible' - I take it he won’t be going again then.
Cant his press office make him give at least one vaguely truthful answer rather then this slimy rubbish
In reply to Tom_Harding
Maybe a) he's young and makes mistakes - we all do, I'm sure you have...
and
b) he is genuinely sorry.
Just a thought.
What else you have him do?
Maybe a) he's young and makes mistakes - we all do, I'm sure you have...
and
b) he is genuinely sorry.
Just a thought.
What else you have him do?
In reply to SARS:
lol, yes i have, but no where near as significant in the climbing world and never something so obviously wrong
Seeing as 'his' reply is slimmy, inpersonal and very likly to be written by his marketing man i doubt it. As he said in his initial reply, posted by himself before the shit had really got going "Personally, I don’t believe that we did anything wrong."
> we all do, I'm sure you have...
lol, yes i have, but no where near as significant in the climbing world and never something so obviously wrong
> he is genuinely sorry.
Seeing as 'his' reply is slimmy, inpersonal and very likly to be written by his marketing man i doubt it. As he said in his initial reply, posted by himself before the shit had really got going "Personally, I don’t believe that we did anything wrong."
In reply to Tom_Harding:
isn't it just a boy wanted to climb one of the most famous aidlines free?
red-bull wanted to get the big footage of the action (what was for sure ok to him, wouldn't it have for you in his place?) and now there are some more bolts in this already shattered rockface - so what?!
don't blame the player, blame the game.
however, just wanted to mention he's not swiss but austrian: http://www.david-lama.com/de/david/ueber-mich/steckbrief.html
isn't it just a boy wanted to climb one of the most famous aidlines free?
red-bull wanted to get the big footage of the action (what was for sure ok to him, wouldn't it have for you in his place?) and now there are some more bolts in this already shattered rockface - so what?!
don't blame the player, blame the game.
however, just wanted to mention he's not swiss but austrian: http://www.david-lama.com/de/david/ueber-mich/steckbrief.html
In reply to Tom_Harding:
It's the first link in the article:
http://www.david-lama.com/de/news.html?no_cache=1&tx_lamanews_pi2[newsu...
However it's in German.
> (In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC)
>
> Björn where were the comments originally posted
>
> Björn where were the comments originally posted
It's the first link in the article:
http://www.david-lama.com/de/news.html?no_cache=1&tx_lamanews_pi2[newsu...
However it's in German.
In reply to mattrm:
i dont read German either.
Over the last few months have been my sponsor and Red Bull I confronted with some of criticism. Specifically, it was about the film from my project at the Cerro Torre and the abandonment of material on the mountain.
According to my projects in the Alpine Dolomites and Mont Blanc and the competitions and Arco in Chamonix, it is now high time to write down a few thoughts on the subject.
I, as well as all other persons involved in the project, are very unhappy about the current state of affairs. The following lines are intended both to provide an insight into the future of my project, describe the situation and above all, to date, in my view, to give them an insight that would like to deal with this subject:
In 2008 almost zero, a friend brought the idea to climb Cerro Torre to freely route the compressor. From the times I had this thought hooked. Quite the contrary, the more I thought about it, the more this project was in my head into a kind of vision.
There is an expedition a costly affair so I was glad to have partners in my page that is have a listen to my dreams and visions. Above all, Red Bull is all excited about this project and a high-quality documentation was sought. I was enthusiastic about the place of my projects was given. Both Red Bull and I knew, however, the difficulty of the logistics on the mountain to bring about the production, because unlike to many other shootings, it would at this stage for me be impossible, apart from my own climbing even in the safety of the crew to think. I was glad that the Red Bull Such was the safety of the crew and a guide to the task team, consisting of three persons, made. Such were the tasks clearly identified and I could focus on my climbing - the crew on the documentation.
The mountain guides of course the most important safety for the team was guaranteed. I was especially important to charge the mountain as little as possible and not to harass other climbers in their attempts.
It appeared to our lead guide, therefore the most sense to set up a Fixseillinie from High Point to the foot of the shoulder. This have been set above the shoulder and below the shoulder bolts twelve fourteen bolts, which are mostly far away from the actual route. The existing rappelling from the shoulder was due to dangerous icefall.
The main target of ourselves, however, was the mountain after the conclusion of production left to clean again. Even during the production were old, removed from other climbers left behind ropes, brought into the valley and disposed of. With our own material it would have to happen immediately. With a lot of bad weather we had expected, of course, with snow masses such that we would not make it but once for over a month on the shoulder, not. For this reason, even before our departure, Argentine committed guides who should pick up our fixed ropes and deposited items from the shoulder down to the valley as soon as the conditions allow it again. A haul bag and the bolts are all that could not be salvaged. This will also remove any case in the coming season. The material that was stored in Nipo Nino, a camp between El Chalten and shoulder, was picked up by ourselves.
The critical voices from the scene have left us cold in any case. Bolts to remove, clean and they are at all not even put two pairs of shoes. The criticism has inspired me to think and I have to admit that, especially with the discussions with fellow mountaineers my view of things has been sharpened.
It is true, that the rock sets in many sections by Risssysteme space for mobile backups, etc., in which people can have the camera hochjumarn. But that is all too easy to say when one is not the one who bears the responsibility for the lives of those who work your way to these placements after a violent storm, meter by meter. I would like to take this responsibility and not understand why the decision of our Lead Guides have used a limited number of bolts.
Bolts or not, for many the reason for controversy even in the question of whether to make such a production on such a mountain. In this issue are the ghosts. Film and photo shoots will always be a part of the Profikletterns and therefore part of my life. I'm definitely my own conclusions drawn from the criticism and decided therefore, with Red Bull, that is elected at an upcoming attempt a different tactic and no other bolts are drilled for the production. This decision will affect the quality of production, but I'm glad that Red Bull takes this decision with me. If the film project in this form but will no longer be applicable and the production is interrupted, would be in my plans to try the Cerro Torre again free to change anything ...
> It's the first link in the article:
i dont read German either.
Over the last few months have been my sponsor and Red Bull I confronted with some of criticism. Specifically, it was about the film from my project at the Cerro Torre and the abandonment of material on the mountain.
According to my projects in the Alpine Dolomites and Mont Blanc and the competitions and Arco in Chamonix, it is now high time to write down a few thoughts on the subject.
I, as well as all other persons involved in the project, are very unhappy about the current state of affairs. The following lines are intended both to provide an insight into the future of my project, describe the situation and above all, to date, in my view, to give them an insight that would like to deal with this subject:
In 2008 almost zero, a friend brought the idea to climb Cerro Torre to freely route the compressor. From the times I had this thought hooked. Quite the contrary, the more I thought about it, the more this project was in my head into a kind of vision.
There is an expedition a costly affair so I was glad to have partners in my page that is have a listen to my dreams and visions. Above all, Red Bull is all excited about this project and a high-quality documentation was sought. I was enthusiastic about the place of my projects was given. Both Red Bull and I knew, however, the difficulty of the logistics on the mountain to bring about the production, because unlike to many other shootings, it would at this stage for me be impossible, apart from my own climbing even in the safety of the crew to think. I was glad that the Red Bull Such was the safety of the crew and a guide to the task team, consisting of three persons, made. Such were the tasks clearly identified and I could focus on my climbing - the crew on the documentation.
The mountain guides of course the most important safety for the team was guaranteed. I was especially important to charge the mountain as little as possible and not to harass other climbers in their attempts.
It appeared to our lead guide, therefore the most sense to set up a Fixseillinie from High Point to the foot of the shoulder. This have been set above the shoulder and below the shoulder bolts twelve fourteen bolts, which are mostly far away from the actual route. The existing rappelling from the shoulder was due to dangerous icefall.
The main target of ourselves, however, was the mountain after the conclusion of production left to clean again. Even during the production were old, removed from other climbers left behind ropes, brought into the valley and disposed of. With our own material it would have to happen immediately. With a lot of bad weather we had expected, of course, with snow masses such that we would not make it but once for over a month on the shoulder, not. For this reason, even before our departure, Argentine committed guides who should pick up our fixed ropes and deposited items from the shoulder down to the valley as soon as the conditions allow it again. A haul bag and the bolts are all that could not be salvaged. This will also remove any case in the coming season. The material that was stored in Nipo Nino, a camp between El Chalten and shoulder, was picked up by ourselves.
The critical voices from the scene have left us cold in any case. Bolts to remove, clean and they are at all not even put two pairs of shoes. The criticism has inspired me to think and I have to admit that, especially with the discussions with fellow mountaineers my view of things has been sharpened.
It is true, that the rock sets in many sections by Risssysteme space for mobile backups, etc., in which people can have the camera hochjumarn. But that is all too easy to say when one is not the one who bears the responsibility for the lives of those who work your way to these placements after a violent storm, meter by meter. I would like to take this responsibility and not understand why the decision of our Lead Guides have used a limited number of bolts.
Bolts or not, for many the reason for controversy even in the question of whether to make such a production on such a mountain. In this issue are the ghosts. Film and photo shoots will always be a part of the Profikletterns and therefore part of my life. I'm definitely my own conclusions drawn from the criticism and decided therefore, with Red Bull, that is elected at an upcoming attempt a different tactic and no other bolts are drilled for the production. This decision will affect the quality of production, but I'm glad that Red Bull takes this decision with me. If the film project in this form but will no longer be applicable and the production is interrupted, would be in my plans to try the Cerro Torre again free to change anything ...
German english translation using Google
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
I'm afraid my German isn't good enough to get through the article in the original German and the translation requires a bit of interpretation.
Am I right in thinking that he still thinks it's OK to bolt a mountain for the sake of a film crew if you take the bolts out afterwards?
I'm afraid my German isn't good enough to get through the article in the original German and the translation requires a bit of interpretation.
Am I right in thinking that he still thinks it's OK to bolt a mountain for the sake of a film crew if you take the bolts out afterwards?
In reply to Tom_Harding:
Pity you felt it was a good idea to use a computer translation as you have completely twisted around what he said in the original and removed the sense which gives the justification for the teams actions.
"Ich möchte diese Verantwortung nicht tragen und verstehe deshalb auch die Entscheidung unseres Lead Guides eine limitierte Anzahl an Bohrhaken eingesetzt zu haben."
Which you translate as "I would like to take this responsibility and not understand why the decision of our Lead Guides have used a limited number of bolts."
And which actually says "I did not wish to take the responsibilty (note, for using mobile protection for the camera teams fixed ropes) and therefore understand the decision of the chief guide to have placed a limited number of bolts".
Maybe you should request UKC that your translation is removed as it is giving a completely opposite view to what he actually said.
Pity you felt it was a good idea to use a computer translation as you have completely twisted around what he said in the original and removed the sense which gives the justification for the teams actions.
"Ich möchte diese Verantwortung nicht tragen und verstehe deshalb auch die Entscheidung unseres Lead Guides eine limitierte Anzahl an Bohrhaken eingesetzt zu haben."
Which you translate as "I would like to take this responsibility and not understand why the decision of our Lead Guides have used a limited number of bolts."
And which actually says "I did not wish to take the responsibilty (note, for using mobile protection for the camera teams fixed ropes) and therefore understand the decision of the chief guide to have placed a limited number of bolts".
Maybe you should request UKC that your translation is removed as it is giving a completely opposite view to what he actually said.
Translation (the Google translation omitted a few very important negations, so better read this one) :
Over the last few months my sponsor Red Bull and I have been confronted with some of criticism. Specifically, it was about the film about my project at the Cerro Torre and the abandonment of material on the mountain.
After my projects in the Alpine Dolomites and Mont Blanc and the competitions in Chamonix and Arco, it is now time to write down a few thoughts on the subject.
I, as well as all other persons involved in the project, are very unhappy about the current state of affairs. The following lines are intended both to provide an insight into the future of my project, but above all, to describe the situation to date from my point of view, and to give those an insight that would like to deal with this subject:
In December 2008 a friend brought me the idea to free climb the Cerro Torre from the compressor route. From this time on I was hooked. The more I thought about it, the more this project became a kind of vision in my head.
As such an expedition is a costly affair, I was glad to have a partner at my side, which listens to my dreams and visions. Above all, Red Bull is all excited about this project and a high-quality documentation was sought. I was enthusiastic about the status my projects were given. Both Red Bull and I knew, however, about the difficulty of the logistics on the mountain for the production, because unlike to many other shootings, it would be impossible at this stage for me, apart from my own climbing to also think about the safety of the crew. I was glad that Red Bull agreed and delegated the safety of the crew to a team of mountain guides, consisting of three persons. In such a way the tasks were clearly separated and I could focus on my climbing - the crew on the documentation.
For the guides, of course, it was most important to guarantee the safety of the team. It was especially important to stress the mountain as little as possible and not to disturb other climbers in their attempts.
It made therefore the most sense to our lead guide to set up a line of fix ropes from the high point to the foot of the shoulder. Twelve bolts above the shoulder and fourteen bolts below the shoulder have been set, which are mostly far away from the actual route. The existing rappelling from the shoulder was to dangerous due to falling ice.
However, the main target for ourselves was to leave the mountain clean again after finishing the production. Even during the production old ropes, which have been left behind from other climbers, were brought into the valley and were disposed of. This is how it should immediately have had happened with our own material. Of course, we have been planning with a lot of bad weather, but not with such masses of snow that we would not make it once on the shoulder for over a month. For this reason, before our departure, argentine guides were hired to get our fixed ropes and deposited items from the shoulder down to the valley as soon as conditions would allow it again. A haul bag and the bolts is all that could not be salvaged. This will definitely also be removed in the coming season. The material that was stored in Nipo Nino, a camp between El Chalten and shoulder, was picked up by ourselves.
The critical voices from the scene have definitely not left us cold. To cleanly remove bolts and not to set them in the first place are two pairs of shoes. The criticism has inspired me to think and I have to admit that, especially due to the discussions with fellow mountaineers my view of things has been sharpened.
It is true that the rock offers the possibility for mobile protection in many sections by crack systems, etc., on which the camera people can jumar up. But that is all too easy to say when you are not the one who bears the responsibility for the lives of those who go up on these placements after a violent storm, meter by meter. I would not like to take this responsibility and understand why the decision of our lead guides was to use a limited number of bolts.
Bolts or not, for many the reason for controversy even was the question of whether we should make such production at all on such a mountain. In this issue the opinions divide. Film and photo shoots will always be a part of professional climbing and therefore a part of my life. I have definitely drawn my own consequences from the criticism and decided therefore, with Red Bull, that on an upcoming attempt a different tactic will be chosen and no other bolts will be drilled for the production. This decision will affect the quality of production, but I'm glad that Red Bull supports this decision with me. If the film project in this form but will no longer be feasible and the production is discontinued, this would not change anything on my plans to try to free climb the Cerro Torre again ...
Over the last few months my sponsor Red Bull and I have been confronted with some of criticism. Specifically, it was about the film about my project at the Cerro Torre and the abandonment of material on the mountain.
After my projects in the Alpine Dolomites and Mont Blanc and the competitions in Chamonix and Arco, it is now time to write down a few thoughts on the subject.
I, as well as all other persons involved in the project, are very unhappy about the current state of affairs. The following lines are intended both to provide an insight into the future of my project, but above all, to describe the situation to date from my point of view, and to give those an insight that would like to deal with this subject:
In December 2008 a friend brought me the idea to free climb the Cerro Torre from the compressor route. From this time on I was hooked. The more I thought about it, the more this project became a kind of vision in my head.
As such an expedition is a costly affair, I was glad to have a partner at my side, which listens to my dreams and visions. Above all, Red Bull is all excited about this project and a high-quality documentation was sought. I was enthusiastic about the status my projects were given. Both Red Bull and I knew, however, about the difficulty of the logistics on the mountain for the production, because unlike to many other shootings, it would be impossible at this stage for me, apart from my own climbing to also think about the safety of the crew. I was glad that Red Bull agreed and delegated the safety of the crew to a team of mountain guides, consisting of three persons. In such a way the tasks were clearly separated and I could focus on my climbing - the crew on the documentation.
For the guides, of course, it was most important to guarantee the safety of the team. It was especially important to stress the mountain as little as possible and not to disturb other climbers in their attempts.
It made therefore the most sense to our lead guide to set up a line of fix ropes from the high point to the foot of the shoulder. Twelve bolts above the shoulder and fourteen bolts below the shoulder have been set, which are mostly far away from the actual route. The existing rappelling from the shoulder was to dangerous due to falling ice.
However, the main target for ourselves was to leave the mountain clean again after finishing the production. Even during the production old ropes, which have been left behind from other climbers, were brought into the valley and were disposed of. This is how it should immediately have had happened with our own material. Of course, we have been planning with a lot of bad weather, but not with such masses of snow that we would not make it once on the shoulder for over a month. For this reason, before our departure, argentine guides were hired to get our fixed ropes and deposited items from the shoulder down to the valley as soon as conditions would allow it again. A haul bag and the bolts is all that could not be salvaged. This will definitely also be removed in the coming season. The material that was stored in Nipo Nino, a camp between El Chalten and shoulder, was picked up by ourselves.
The critical voices from the scene have definitely not left us cold. To cleanly remove bolts and not to set them in the first place are two pairs of shoes. The criticism has inspired me to think and I have to admit that, especially due to the discussions with fellow mountaineers my view of things has been sharpened.
It is true that the rock offers the possibility for mobile protection in many sections by crack systems, etc., on which the camera people can jumar up. But that is all too easy to say when you are not the one who bears the responsibility for the lives of those who go up on these placements after a violent storm, meter by meter. I would not like to take this responsibility and understand why the decision of our lead guides was to use a limited number of bolts.
Bolts or not, for many the reason for controversy even was the question of whether we should make such production at all on such a mountain. In this issue the opinions divide. Film and photo shoots will always be a part of professional climbing and therefore a part of my life. I have definitely drawn my own consequences from the criticism and decided therefore, with Red Bull, that on an upcoming attempt a different tactic will be chosen and no other bolts will be drilled for the production. This decision will affect the quality of production, but I'm glad that Red Bull supports this decision with me. If the film project in this form but will no longer be feasible and the production is discontinued, this would not change anything on my plans to try to free climb the Cerro Torre again ...
Thx]
To be fair
I think he has been less involved in what his guides did than what people here think...
To be fair
I think he has been less involved in what his guides did than what people here think...
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
The specific extent of David Lama's personal involvement is surely rather irrelevant? This isn't the first time Red Bull has been involved in controversy over promotional stunts. The question the climbing world should be asking is whether commercial sponsors, with no natural link to climbing, like Red Bull, should be tolerated at all. By definition a sugary-drinks firm is far less likely to be a committed positive force within the sport compared to a firm which actually sells climbing-related products.
Meanwhile, Bjorn, how about The Lowdown taking a stand by not running Red-Bull-tastic articles like this one: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=56072
Indeed how about re-working this current article with a picture of Lama NOT wearing a Red Bull hat?
The specific extent of David Lama's personal involvement is surely rather irrelevant? This isn't the first time Red Bull has been involved in controversy over promotional stunts. The question the climbing world should be asking is whether commercial sponsors, with no natural link to climbing, like Red Bull, should be tolerated at all. By definition a sugary-drinks firm is far less likely to be a committed positive force within the sport compared to a firm which actually sells climbing-related products.
Meanwhile, Bjorn, how about The Lowdown taking a stand by not running Red-Bull-tastic articles like this one: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=56072
Indeed how about re-working this current article with a picture of Lama NOT wearing a Red Bull hat?
In reply to jimtitt:
Not everyone is bilingual and those who aren't use the tools available to them such as on-line translation tools.
Maybe you should offer your services to translate the article in full rather than picking out one line?
Better still, if you go and translate the page on Google itself (translate.google.com), you'll find the option to provide an alternative translation if you feel it is inaccurate, thus helping to improve the overall quality of the tools that others who are not bilingual in languages that you are use.
Not everyone is bilingual and those who aren't use the tools available to them such as on-line translation tools.
Maybe you should offer your services to translate the article in full rather than picking out one line?
Better still, if you go and translate the page on Google itself (translate.google.com), you'll find the option to provide an alternative translation if you feel it is inaccurate, thus helping to improve the overall quality of the tools that others who are not bilingual in languages that you are use.
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC: he regrets what he did yet blames the Guides for the bolting. this was his expedition, his idea. yes the guides should have known better but ultimately, he needs MTFU and accept responsibility for his idea and not pass the buck.
In reply to slacky:
> (In reply to jimtitt)
>
> Not everyone is bilingual and those who aren't use the tools available to them such as on-line translation tools.
>
Perhaps this is a useful warning sign that online translations may not be very good, and drawing conclusions from online translations may result in confusion. And I think jimtitt was providing a correction to a line quoted by Tom Harding. >
> Not everyone is bilingual and those who aren't use the tools available to them such as on-line translation tools.
>
> Maybe you should offer your services to translate the article in full rather than picking out one line?
>
sb2006 has provided a full translation. >
In reply to Tom_Harding:
Tom ... please don't post Google translations like that again please.
Ta
Mick
Tom ... please don't post Google translations like that again please.
Ta
Mick
In reply to slacky:
I think that jimtitt makes a pretty important point here, and while your reply might not have been meant that way, it comes across as touchy or ill-tempered.
Alex
> (In reply to jimtitt)
>
> Not everyone is bilingual and those who aren't use the tools available to them such as on-line translation tools.
>
> Maybe you should offer your services to translate the article in full rather than picking out one line?
>
> Better still, [...]
>
> Not everyone is bilingual and those who aren't use the tools available to them such as on-line translation tools.
>
> Maybe you should offer your services to translate the article in full rather than picking out one line?
>
> Better still, [...]
I think that jimtitt makes a pretty important point here, and while your reply might not have been meant that way, it comes across as touchy or ill-tempered.
Alex
In reply to alex_th:
Perhaps.
He still seems to be under the impression that it's OK to place bolts so long as you take them out again.
Anyone know who the guides were? It would be nice if they got some publicity so prospective clients would learn of their safety concious attitude in big mountains. I don't see why the teenager should get all the credit when he has been influenced by more experienced climbers.
Perhaps.
He still seems to be under the impression that it's OK to place bolts so long as you take them out again.
Anyone know who the guides were? It would be nice if they got some publicity so prospective clients would learn of their safety concious attitude in big mountains. I don't see why the teenager should get all the credit when he has been influenced by more experienced climbers.
In reply to slacky:
The irony of someone engaging in an ethical debate when ignoring the copyright on a published work is breathtaking.
The irony of someone engaging in an ethical debate when ignoring the copyright on a published work is breathtaking.
In reply to jimtitt:
Just because something has been been published online does not automatically mean it is copyrighted. That is like me trying to say what I am typing right now is copyrighted. It does not work like that. And lets not delve into "fair use"
> (In reply to slacky)
> The irony of someone engaging in an ethical debate when ignoring the copyright on a published work is breathtaking.
> The irony of someone engaging in an ethical debate when ignoring the copyright on a published work is breathtaking.
Just because something has been been published online does not automatically mean it is copyrighted. That is like me trying to say what I am typing right now is copyrighted. It does not work like that. And lets not delve into "fair use"
In reply to Milesy:
At the bottom of the webpage is a copyright symbol and the link to the legal rights and condition the author has placed on his work. Both the translations posted are in direct breach of this.
At the bottom of the webpage is a copyright symbol and the link to the legal rights and condition the author has placed on his work. Both the translations posted are in direct breach of this.
In reply to tobyfk:
Missed that comment. Yes, excellent idea. It would also be good to boycott any publicity from Red Bull from now on.
> (In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC)
>
> Indeed how about re-working this current article with a picture of Lama NOT wearing a Red Bull hat?
> Indeed how about re-working this current article with a picture of Lama NOT wearing a Red Bull hat?
Missed that comment. Yes, excellent idea. It would also be good to boycott any publicity from Red Bull from now on.
In reply to Milesy:
Yes it does.
> Just because something has been been published online does not automatically mean it is copyrighted
Yes it does.
In reply to jimtitt:
Fair Use. Non Profit / Discussion / Academic etc etc etc.
© 2010, Milesy
> (In reply to Milesy)
> At the bottom of the webpage is a copyright symbol and the link to the legal rights and condition the author has placed on his work. Both the translations posted are in direct breach of this.
> At the bottom of the webpage is a copyright symbol and the link to the legal rights and condition the author has placed on his work. Both the translations posted are in direct breach of this.
Fair Use. Non Profit / Discussion / Academic etc etc etc.
© 2010, Milesy
In reply to Milesy:
They are posted on a commercial website (UKC) and therefore almost certainly do not come under the `fair use´exemptions.
You cannot copyright your last post as you irrevocably signed away all rights to your posts to UKC on joining.
They are posted on a commercial website (UKC) and therefore almost certainly do not come under the `fair use´exemptions.
You cannot copyright your last post as you irrevocably signed away all rights to your posts to UKC on joining.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Sorry Mick.
Can you get foreign language articles translated and put up on the site? It would be great to see the correct thing rather then the google translations i often rely on.
Thanks
> Tom ... please don't post Google translations like that again please.
Sorry Mick.
Can you get foreign language articles translated and put up on the site? It would be great to see the correct thing rather then the google translations i often rely on.
Thanks
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC: Here's an idea. If Lama truly has a desire to free the Compressor Route for reasons other than commercial ones why doesn't he forget about the film crew and just go do it?
In reply to Milesy: from Wikipedia:
" Fair dealing uses are research and study; review and critique; parody and satire; news reportage and the giving of professional advice (i.e. legal advice)."
" Fair dealing uses are research and study; review and critique; parody and satire; news reportage and the giving of professional advice (i.e. legal advice)."
In reply to Tom_Harding:
Of course we have stacks of money to get translations done. Our money comes from advertising.
Short and curlies on this story.
No one has done a thorough investigative piece on it and talked to everyone, and they probably won't. Rolo is the person I trust on this.
Lot of assumptions.
Over and out.
Mick
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> [...]
>
> Sorry Mick.
>
> Can you get foreign language articles translated and put up on the site?
>
> [...]
>
> Sorry Mick.
>
> Can you get foreign language articles translated and put up on the site?
Of course we have stacks of money to get translations done. Our money comes from advertising.
Short and curlies on this story.
No one has done a thorough investigative piece on it and talked to everyone, and they probably won't. Rolo is the person I trust on this.
Lot of assumptions.
Over and out.
Mick
In reply to aln:
Several people have eyes on freeing the Compressor Route and several have tried.
It should be stated, it is no-ones project - does Lama use the possessive, 'my'? - this isn't a freaking single pitch sport climb!
> (In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC) Here's an idea. If Lama truly has a desire to free the Compressor Route for reasons other than commercial ones why doesn't he forget about the film crew and just go do it?
Several people have eyes on freeing the Compressor Route and several have tried.
It should be stated, it is no-ones project - does Lama use the possessive, 'my'? - this isn't a freaking single pitch sport climb!
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Get another rockfax out and you could do it? lol, fair enough, but i'm sure there would be some volenteers if you needed translators. It doesent really matter most of the time but with a news story like this that relies on the exact wording of the orignal statment it would add alot of depth.
> Of course we have stacks of money to get translations done. Our money comes from advertising.
Get another rockfax out and you could do it? lol, fair enough, but i'm sure there would be some volenteers if you needed translators. It doesent really matter most of the time but with a news story like this that relies on the exact wording of the orignal statment it would add alot of depth.
In reply to aln:
$299, job done, no bolts
http://www.goprocamera.com/
> (In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC) Here's an idea. If Lama truly has a desire to free the Compressor Route for reasons other than commercial ones why doesn't he forget about the film crew and just go do it?
$299, job done, no bolts
http://www.goprocamera.com/
In reply to woolsack: It was done in 1970 something with a camera much bigger then that already...
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: "Several people have eyes on freeing the Compressor Route and several have tried."
I'm aware of the history.
"It should be stated, it is no-ones project"
I didn't say it was.
"- does Lama use the possessive, 'my'?"
No.
"- this isn't a freaking single pitch sport climb!"
Really?
I'm aware of the history.
"It should be stated, it is no-ones project"
I didn't say it was.
"- does Lama use the possessive, 'my'?"
No.
"- this isn't a freaking single pitch sport climb!"
Really?
In reply to Tom_Harding: Maybe I didn't explain clearly enough
quote "If Lama truly has a desire to free the Compressor Route for reasons other than commercial ones why doesn't he forget about the film crew and just go do it?"
No film crew required so no bolts required, he still has a record of the climb for his grand children
quote "If Lama truly has a desire to free the Compressor Route for reasons other than commercial ones why doesn't he forget about the film crew and just go do it?"
No film crew required so no bolts required, he still has a record of the climb for his grand children
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Fair enough.
Will Gadd's blog update on this subject might be of interest (scroll down to 13th July - it's quite long):
http://gravsports.blogspot.com/
http://gravsports.blogspot.com/
In reply to Burns:
Possibly he'd just had a sip of Red Bull and it's left a bad taste in his mouth...
> Aww. He looks sad in the photo
Possibly he'd just had a sip of Red Bull and it's left a bad taste in his mouth...
In reply to swiss gneiss:
> don't blame the player, blame the game.
very sad if you actually believe this Well, if I understood it right this debat was about the bolts left in the wall.
The bolts where left there not because David Lama was using them to protect his climbing but because Red Bull let the mountain guides place them to enable the camera-men to get theire footage in safety.
This is quit an important point I think as much as it concerns the question: who's responsable for this left bolts? Is it Lama, is it Red Bull, the guides, the camera-men?!
There is big difference between the style a climber approachs a route and the way a sponsor organizes the filming of such a big attempt like the compressor route free.
I think David Lama was just playing the game when agree with Red Bull to get the hole thing captured on film and let them pay his ticket and gear etc. therefore. And now there are these ugly bolts in this nice rockface...
Of course next time he will better get his rucksack packed walk to Patagonia and do it in proper alpine-solo style - but then he will be playing another game...
The bolts where left there not because David Lama was using them to protect his climbing but because Red Bull let the mountain guides place them to enable the camera-men to get theire footage in safety.
This is quit an important point I think as much as it concerns the question: who's responsable for this left bolts? Is it Lama, is it Red Bull, the guides, the camera-men?!
There is big difference between the style a climber approachs a route and the way a sponsor organizes the filming of such a big attempt like the compressor route free.
I think David Lama was just playing the game when agree with Red Bull to get the hole thing captured on film and let them pay his ticket and gear etc. therefore. And now there are these ugly bolts in this nice rockface...
Of course next time he will better get his rucksack packed walk to Patagonia and do it in proper alpine-solo style - but then he will be playing another game...
In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC:
Interesting response from Lama.
Out of the responsibility issues, I have two questions for any forum users familiar with patagonia and expedition climbing in general...
a) Would a severe patagonical storm shake ropes so much that they make fixed lines questionable, if they're relying only on clean gear? Even if said gear is placed correctly and in redundant, multi-directional fashion?
b)With appropriate gear, would an appropriate film team (ideally a couple of experienced climbers) be able to aid the route fast enough to get good film coverage anyway, even without placing fixed lines on the whole route?
Interesting response from Lama.
Out of the responsibility issues, I have two questions for any forum users familiar with patagonia and expedition climbing in general...
a) Would a severe patagonical storm shake ropes so much that they make fixed lines questionable, if they're relying only on clean gear? Even if said gear is placed correctly and in redundant, multi-directional fashion?
b)With appropriate gear, would an appropriate film team (ideally a couple of experienced climbers) be able to aid the route fast enough to get good film coverage anyway, even without placing fixed lines on the whole route?
In reply to tobyfk:
Is it really a Red-Bull-tastic article? Red-bull is only visible in the pic, which is from the original Spanish site which has no pics of Iker with his helmet off.
Also, does it make sense to ask a news service to bias itself by not showing articles on uncontroversial ascents and climbers because they are sponsored by a controversial brand?
Is it really a Red-Bull-tastic article? Red-bull is only visible in the pic, which is from the original Spanish site which has no pics of Iker with his helmet off.
Also, does it make sense to ask a news service to bias itself by not showing articles on uncontroversial ascents and climbers because they are sponsored by a controversial brand?
In reply to swiss gneiss: Oh come off it, of course Lama is (at least partially) responsible. Blaming the guides is just an attempt to avoid his responsibility.
You say he was playing the game, I say he played the game and has to accept responsibility for what happened. He can't have his cake (or sickly drink) and eat it - great he got sponsored and stuff paid for but then he has to accept the responsibility when unacceptable things happen.
You say he was playing the game, I say he played the game and has to accept responsibility for what happened. He can't have his cake (or sickly drink) and eat it - great he got sponsored and stuff paid for but then he has to accept the responsibility when unacceptable things happen.
In reply to ghisino:
Exactly the point, this must have been known in advance and would have been part of a logistical discussion.
The questions about whose decision it was to bolt, their reasons for it and the leaving behind of the gear are just a smokescreen. Someone is insulting our intelligence here.
> (In reply to Björn Pohl - UKC)
>
> "he understands why the guides opted for bolts instead as removable gear and inexperienced climbers, i.e the film crew, is a dangerous mix."
>
> if that was/is the problem, ain't there film crews who are also experienced climbers??????
>
> "he understands why the guides opted for bolts instead as removable gear and inexperienced climbers, i.e the film crew, is a dangerous mix."
>
> if that was/is the problem, ain't there film crews who are also experienced climbers??????
Exactly the point, this must have been known in advance and would have been part of a logistical discussion.
The questions about whose decision it was to bolt, their reasons for it and the leaving behind of the gear are just a smokescreen. Someone is insulting our intelligence here.
In reply to sb2006:
The plot thickens as Alpanist release some real news....
From Alpanist - 'When questioned by Alpinist in May 2010, neither David Lama nor his film crew nor Red Bull denied that roughly 50-60 bolts were placed. This number was cited by Horacio Graton, an Argentine guide hired by Red Bull to clean rope and other gear left by Lama and his team. Furthermore, Rolando Garibotti asserts that the bolts in question were placed along the routeline—visible to and within reach of climbers on route—not "far to the side"'
The plot thickens as Alpanist release some real news....
> Twelve bolts above the shoulder and fourteen bolts below the shoulder have been set, which are mostly far away from the actual route
From Alpanist - 'When questioned by Alpinist in May 2010, neither David Lama nor his film crew nor Red Bull denied that roughly 50-60 bolts were placed. This number was cited by Horacio Graton, an Argentine guide hired by Red Bull to clean rope and other gear left by Lama and his team. Furthermore, Rolando Garibotti asserts that the bolts in question were placed along the routeline—visible to and within reach of climbers on route—not "far to the side"'
In reply to TeeBee:
Cheers. He comes over as a bit of hand job but he seems to be sponsored by Red Bull as well.
Shame he didn't reveal the name of the Austrian guide who decided to place the bolts. It would be good for prospective clients to be aware of his safety concious attitude.
Anyone else know who the guide is?
> Will Gadd's blog update on this subject might be of interest (scroll down to 13th July - it's quite long):
>
> http://gravsports.blogspot.com/
>
> http://gravsports.blogspot.com/
Cheers. He comes over as a bit of hand job but he seems to be sponsored by Red Bull as well.
Shame he didn't reveal the name of the Austrian guide who decided to place the bolts. It would be good for prospective clients to be aware of his safety concious attitude.
Anyone else know who the guide is?
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