UKC

How many of the people who post on UKC, do you think, can actually find their way at night or in cloudy conditions using map & compass, across the hills & the more difficult featureless terrain, e.g. the moors.

In reply to pyle:

Me!

Have done so on countless occasions. Sometimes for pleasure and occasionally in anger.

In reply to pyle:

Or do you think quite a lot of us talk-the-talk but can't walk-the-walk?

There are an awful lot of experienced people on this site. or do you think differently?

In reply to pyle:

Quite a few I would think. Not sure what the percentage would be though.

In reply to pyle: Been on the Glyders in storm conditions.

Blencathra in 40 plus mph wind gusts and -16 wind chill

And recently this year on Kinder on us own in zero visibility with metre high unconsolidated snow to trek through.. to name but a few.

Have counted my blessings on these, however good judgement played a massive part in getting off in one piece.

Always carry a map and compass and practice at every opportunity.

In reply to pyle: Flipping loads. Definitely anyone with winter ML, most people with summer ML, Armed Forces people, plenty of other people.

I've regularly had to do this at night without a torch.

Plenty of people here have too.

In reply to pyle: probably more than most walkers with their inappropriate footwear and route cutouts from Trail Magazine!

In reply to pyle: Lots.

In reply to The Lemming:

The OP poses an interesting question. I know of quite a few 'cragrats' who wouldn't be able to nav off safely, and who wouldn't take a headtorch on a big mountain crag because 'they'll be off before dark'...

I do suspect that they are in the minority on here, but i bet a few of the more vocal posters would struggle when it came to more rounded 'hillskills'.

In reply to shingsowa: Why are vocality and lack of hillskills linked in your mind?

In reply to shingsowa:
>

Which is probably why they have chosen to be cragrats. Not everybody wants to go hill walking, mountaineering or even bouldering and each to their own. Quite a lot of crags are close to roads or not far from a car park to need simple navigation skills. However if the cragrat wishes to play on a crag which is on a hillside such as Gimmer, then Mountain Craft skills including extra kit are most definitely advised.





Why?

Not everybody wants or needs to know how to navigate on the hill provided they do not go on the hill or, if they do go on the hill, they would be advised to go out with somebody who has this knowledge.

At the end of the day we have the choice of personal responsibility and must accept the consequences of our actions. I'd say a healthy dose of luck would help as well, as I am sure many of us have epic stories to recount by the fireside on a cold winter's night where either luck or good fortune smiled on us.

In reply to pyle: is it necessary for climbing at the Foundry?

In reply to pyle: an interesting question which i doubt you will get an answer to as the more vocal amoung us will be vocal and say that can do it, infact they know the best way to do it, but in reality they would just cower in a corner.

In reply to naffan: Ooh I just love to swim against the tide. On my sons 15th birthday I took him up Scafell Pike via Great End. It was cloudy on top and poured down. We got wet through and I kept somehow missing the summit and had to keep retracing my steps. I also left the map and compass in the car, thats also where I left our wet weather gear, food and water. WE eventually found the summit and dropped down into Wasdale then walked back up and over back down to the Keswick side. Some of the streams that needed crossing were vraging torrents and I had to hold onto boulders in the midd;le and drag him across itw as also late and dark by this time. Down by the packhorse bridge you could hear what sounded like thunder but was in fact boulders moving on the stream bed. I got him home to Grtna some time around midnight. At the time I was an operational team member of a mountain rescue team.

Another thing Ive seen a major who has been on an expedition to the north pole use his map and compass upside down and head off in the wrong direction. he was not amused when I asked him if he wasnt sure it was the South pole he had been to?

Screwing up isnt that hard to do. Its thinking you are perfect thats gonna hurt.

In reply to Fawksey:
Did your lad get into hillwalking ........ ?

In reply to naffan:


Cower in the corner?

Is this because you think we are talking a load of 'bull', just read books and talk a good game rather than learning our craft at the coal face?

In reply to Fawksey:
>

Fair play,

324 people had read this post now and your the only one who has posted a negative experiance.

I would like to think that i have the skills to get off hill/navigate in bad weather but have yet to have put it into practice without expecting it

Most people have read a few books or articules in magazines, maybe even watch bear grills knock up a 3 course feast from various bugs and testicles, i wonder how many people think this is enough info to get them down from a multi-pitch mountain route in bad weather.

Even when i go to a crag that has a 5-10 minuite walk in i always make sure i have food/water, first aid kit, torch and a phone(signal permitting)

I think even these basics are overlooked by most crag rats.

In reply to The Lemming: Mountain craft skills to climb at Gimmer? All you have to do is stumble 30 minutes down the hill to the road!!!

In reply to pyle:

A map and compass are fairly useless at night or in poor visibility if you don't know where you are. If you know where you are or if there is good visibility (daylight or bright moonlight on snow), you don't need a map and compass anyway, provided you are reasonably familiar with the terrain. Hence I rarely carry a map and compass. I've had some epics on routes but have yet to get lost getting off or to a route. I'm not saying that 'mountain skills' are useless for climbers, just that you don't need them most of the time provided that you have some common sense (which includes not going out to do something serious in poor conditions).

In reply to pyle:

I have more problems finding the footpaths out of the valleys than I do navigating at night, in thick cloud or in whiteouts.

In reply to robw007: Aye he is in to hillwalking. Strangely doesnt seem to take me with him.

In reply to pyle:

Navigation using map and compass is one of those things - like 'escaping the system' and 'releasable abseils' - that the training bodies seem to emphasise very strongly. But for ordinary climbers with a bit of common sense and intelligence in reality it's hardly ever needed.

In 30 years I don't think I've ever taken a compass with me in the UK except when winter climbing - rarely even a proper map - and I've never run into danger as a result.

You could make the 'just in case' argument, but equally you could argue that part of the skill is in not getting to the point where you really need such navigational aids and precision.

Of course it helps that, as with most rock climbers, I'm not usually interested in going to crags I think may be clagged in fog or rain.

In reply to kilner:

But it wasn't negative - it's given him a great tale to tell. On at least one occasion I have gone out knowing I had no compass, just to see what kind of a mess i got into. (Not a lot but enough) Going out without a waterproof on a damp day (again knowingly) doesn;t half sharpen up your nav - no margin for error when you're cold and wet.

In reply to Fawksey:

I did similar one day. Decided as it was a rotten weather day I would take a gentle stroll up to Styhead, but forgot to turn right at Stockley bridge so eventually ended up at Esk Hause. Turned right, following the scratches till I arrived at the summit. Descended in the direction of Mickledore, descended to the corridor route and followed that back to Sty head and Borrowdale. The only time I was worried was finding the start of the Corridor route, all this was in thick mist. Map was in the car, not seen my compass for 20 years.

I learned basic skills in the scouts and built them up from there, wandering over Kinder and Bleaklow regularly, often in winter. Head torches, you are having a laugh. Sparking my nailed boots on the road on the Snake pass to see the centre line on a pitch dark night has sometimes been our only illumination for a few miles, a rare passing car would guide us as well, how times have changed. Candle lamps or hand torches were kept for emergency use only, batteries were expensive for a teenager on not much money.

After years of going on the hills some things are just second nature, a sudden temperature change when a front comes in, knowing that with the wind on your back the low pressure in a depression is to the left of you, things like that.

Winter climbing is different, never take things for granted then. Learn the different types of snow in all conditions, something for a bad weather day out.

http://www.glenmorelodge.org.uk/
Try the avalanche awareness quiz on the right hand side to see how good you are, I was a lot worse than I thought I was, got half of them wrong, but am learning.

In reply to pyle: I think more than you might think. I know how to read a map and use a compass. Didn't stop me getting flumuxed on Pavey Ark in the cloud. It is one of those skills that needs real experience to put into practice. I tend not to head into the cloud, opting for the pub instead.

In reply to Misha:
I'm not saying that 'mountain skills' are useless for climbers, just that you don't need them most of the time provided that you have some common sense (which includes not going out to do something serious in poor conditions).

Me and a mate once took three goes to find the CAR PARK at the foot of Milestone Buttress on Tryfan! The fog was that thick we couldn't see cars parked feet from the roadside and we kept driving past it! We still managed to go climbing though ... mmm.

I am okay at nav normally and do quite a lot of winter hillwalking in poor conditions, including Scotland which can be more serious due to fewer, fainter paths (often not marked on the map!) and fewer people around.

Having said that, I think a cheap GPS is a great backup so that you know exactly where you are starting from when conditions worsen.

In reply to pyle:

My map and compass work is OK. But it needs to be as I do a lot of hillwalking. And I have also walked up the wrong hill (my excuse that I was having to navigate across the join between two maps doesn't really cut it, IMO).

A good friend of mine tells the story of the time he walked off the wrong side of Scafell (or possibly Scafell Pike) due to complacency (this is the Lakes, there are big paths, therefore I don't need to pay attention). He'd recently completed a round of Munros and Tops...

But yes, if climbing on big remote mountain crags isn't your thing, why should you need to know how to navigate to and from them?

In reply to Misha:

I agree with most of the rest of your post, but having a map and compass will make working out where you are in crap visibility easier, so not 'fairly useless'...

In reply to fimm:

The OP didn't ask if it was a necessity for all climbers, just how many of UKC's posters could do it to that degree...

In reply to pyle: IMHO I think the majority of crag rats can MACRO nav, and by that I mean follow footpaths to get to crags and follow obvious features to get off the hill. Most a sense of where they need to get to and will follow there noses and get there most of the time.

I suspect that most may struggle at MICRO nav, and by that I mean the type of nav you are assessed on at ML (summer or winter). Examples being the insignificant bends and bumps in contours, small shoulders, none footpath nav etc. But this is a level of skill that is not required by a crag rat so I see no reason to chastise a crag rat for not being able to find GR 963782 on Landranger sheet 200 (sorry,the only map I had in the car and due to the location of the road a very easy feature to find but a little trickier if it was on the side of say, Snowdon). Thats what an ML is expected to find, with the reason being that their navigation has to be spot on and finding obscure features like the one i mention above is a good way to gauge how good it is.

Isn't a crag rats time better spent sharpening there rope work that getting exicted about micro nav.

In reply to pyle:

I had the opportunity to put my nav skills to the test on Saturday. I was with a group doing the Welsh 3000s (I was just doing the first eight). I was badly slowing them down, but they were reluctant to leave me behind as I don't have tons of nav experience. However, I do know the basics and have been up the Glyders before. Visibility was poor and there was a bit of wind and rain. I convinced them to leave me at the top of Elidir Fawr and I managed to navigate my way along the Glyders and back to Idwal Cottage OK. I made a couple of wrong turns, and arrived at a couple of points earlier/later than I expected, and I also 'compared notes' with other walkers a couple of times but was relieved to find I wasn't too far away from where I thought I was! It's very easy to think that your skills are better than they actually are, especially if you are usually with someone who is more experienced than you and don't get much opportunity to use them in anger. I was quite pleased to discover that my own rating of my abilities was 'about right' - I managed, though not flawlessly.

I agree that occasional recklessness can be a good way to learn, as long as you have the skills and initiative to get yourself out of the mess. I remember deciding after a few pints to climb Skiddaw at midnight in midwinter in a howling gale. We must have known we'd get in a mess as we all had bivvy gear, so once we were thoroughly lost on the plateau and blown to buggery we just went to sleep until morning.
If you were super-cautious and sensible all the time your experiences might be rather limited.

In reply to Jim Walton:

Fuzzy navigation, we all do it most of the time.

Unfortunately it is often the journey to the car park that goes wrong, not the hill bit. ;-(

In reply to pyle: I used to do night and misty navigation on purpose to improve my skills especially on the Cairngorms which can be flat and featureless , I can still get it wrong though, on a winter bivvying trip two years back I was tired and confused in mist and darkness about the right way to proceed so just bivvied where I was.Getting it wrong and having the skill and equipment to survive is OK but getting it wrong with no gear skill and others along is irresponsible.

In reply to sutty: I once had to sleep in the car at the side of the road outside Laggan 'cos I couldn't find the Creag Meggie car Park and the junction was the only known point i could locate in the night!

A friend of mine once tried to do the cullin ridge but realised he'd forgotten his map. As he is an inventive sod, he used his road atlas instead,... made a successful ascent in a very reasonable time but rumurs are rife that he actualy was on the Blaven-Clas Glas traverse.

In reply to pyle: As far as the OP is concerned, yes I can and often do 'cause I have no qualms about being out in all weathers, day or night, and can happily pace, time, walk on a bearing, micro-nav from the map, etc... However, I am particular as hell about planning - climbing at the local quarry = no map, no compass and no planning required. If it rains, you get wet; if the night comes in you go home. But doing a long walk in the Cairngorms with a bit of climbing/scrambling thrown in or a long winter route on Nevis or in Glencoe = waterproof map, Silva 54, and plan like your life depends on it 'cause it might.

In reply to pyle:

I was taught by my dad in S Africa how to use & from then on had my own map, compass & pocket knife whenever we went out from when I was 10 as we spend a lot of time in the wild. Very useful skills, but I'm not so sure how good I'd be in an unknown featureless landscape though. I really should do some form of refresher!

In reply to pyle:

Dunno. Probably could, but then I haven't tried in a while. You can mark me in the 'unsure' camp if you like, if it will help with the survey.

In reply to The Lemming:

>> Don't be so touchy. I was thinking of the whole UKC site which has indoor wall, bouldering, running, biking forums. Not just people who post on Rocktalk.

In reply to Misha:

Yes, but they can help you to keep track of where you are.

In reply to pyle: I'm useless. I'm still here though.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

But how do you know where 'here' is? eh?

In reply to shingsowa: Good question. I'm definitely not there.

In reply to sutty: I went looking for a pic of Don Whillans online yesterday and my google resulted in a pic of JCT and you doing a Don Whillans impersonation. Everyday on my way to work I pass the scout hut near the Pack Horse on the Widdop road and remember your lecture.

In reply to pyle: I don't have any problem with this (haven't yet, anyway!) There is a pretty wide spectrum of people that use this site. I'm more of a walker and scrambler, and have an interest in the mountaineering angle, wheras there are plenty of people from the other end of the spectrum who do sports climbing, bouldering, deep water soloing etc, who may not have these skills. They probably don't need them either. Also I'm sure lots of people do more than one type of climbing.

In reply to Misha:

With a map and compass at night you can eventually work out where you are, if you know how, and even at a basic level you can aim off to pick up a road, stream etc

In reply to pyle: I did an ML and was a little taken aback by the high standard of navigation that was required so I know I can do it if necessary. Having said that I can't remember the last time I had to do it in order to find my way either to or from a crag. I came to climbing from walking so using a map and compass was something that I did have experience of but I'm sure there are a lot of "climbers" who do not know how to use them.

Al

In reply to pyle:Navigating is something I keep meaning to learn how to do, I think i'm going to start very soon on hills and mountains I know pretty well in the Peak and Lake Districts, will start off in the Peak District I think.

I've learnt from other people about thinking about your fall line though should your trip and tumble, and memorising land marks as much as you can.

I'm starting to get itchy feet for going out by myself.

Cheers
Tim

In reply to sutty:

A family friend had to stop taking Duke of Edinburgh groups out because he can't micro navigate, he's never had any problems with losing groups or accidents, but I can see why instructors need to be so good at navigating. Speaking to my dad about it, he said you usually find out where you are and where you need to be in the end, even if you can't micro navigate.

Cheers
Tim

In reply to pyle:

Years of orienteering has me more than capable of navigation and relocation in all conditions including night, blizzard and cloud.

In reply to pyle: If thats you Private Pyle, you will know that I learnt from the best, namely your boss !! Hope you are well.

In reply to pyle:
Yes, have spent far more time in the mountains wandering than I ever have climbing.

In reply to Misha:

Eh hate to be the one to tell you misha but thats why we carry them,as forbeing fairly useless have you heard of relocation?

In reply to pyle:

navigation and proper map reading is a major weakness of mine. I'm probably above average for the general public but very below average for someone who spends so much time in the 'great outdoors'

In reply to pyle:

Moors, not a problem

In a city, where there are signs and arrows pointing in every direction, I'm lost in no time.

Y.

In reply to Yrmenlaf:

I always have issues with road maps, OS map fine no problem, give me a road map and we will get there eventually

In reply to Graham T:

Hence I prefer multimap to Google maps.

Y.

In reply to Dirk Didler:
No, haven't heard of relocation. I imagine that if you're lost at night or in poor visibility you're better off with a map and compass than without, but it would still be a right pain to find your way if the landscape is fairly featureless. Whatever the benefits of a map and compass, the key point is that, as others have pointed out, climbers don't tend to go out in poor conditions anyway, so most of the time there is no need to have a map and compass. Climbers do get benighted but the main challenge then is completing the route and getting off the crag, for which a map and compass aren't necessary or useful most of the time - what you need instead is the guide book. Once at the base of the crag, it's normally not that hard to get back the way you came in, even at night. So I do think that a map and compass and anything beyond an ability to use them at a basic level aren't really needed for climbing. The exception would perhaps be winter climbing on the larger, more remote moutains that you've not been to before.

In reply to Misha:

It is a pain in the b/side but one that will help to prevent you from having an impromptue overnighter or worse,map reading is one of the core mountaineering skills that allow you to climb in places that are a bit further away than a roadside crag,a guide book is useful for finding the climb you want once your at a crag but if you intend to climb in places further afield i would suggest learning some basic nav skills.

In reply to pyle:

when I used to focus on hill walking, yes, I was pretty handy with a map and compass in cloud etc.

now that I focus on climbing, rarely use a map and compass though mostly take them "just in case" if going somewhere new and a bit remote.

I was wondering this myself a while back, but not about others, just about how I've changed what I do.

In reply to pyle:

My nav's pretty crap actually. I've been out walking some days and walked from top to top in mist on a compass bearing and got to exactly where I want to be. Other times, I've got lost getting out of Pen y Pass car park!
A regular climbing partner and friend of mine once navigated us off the top of the Black Ladders in a complete white out howler without putting a foot wrong. I'd like to be able to navigate like that.

In reply to Misha:

Yes it's a right pain finding your way when you're lost at night and the landscape is fairly featureless, but the point is - as I know from experience - that you can do it if you learn the right skills. In my case it saved me from nothing worse than a cold, lonely Hogmanay, but it could be a lifesaver. It's also essential, as you say, in winter climbing. Cairngorm plateau in a blizzard at night is a good test, as is The Ben, but I've even heard of folk going astray trying to get home from the Northern Corries. Navigation is, as the thread title says, a basic mountaineering skill.

In reply to Misha:


I could show you some advanced techniques if you want x x

In reply to teflonpete:
Not that hard if you've done it once or twice before, just follow the edge of the ridge and then drop down. Familiarity and a good sense of direction are key.

If I were going somewhere that was remote and looked difficult to navigate around and that I was not familiar with, I would take a map and compass, particularly if there was a risk of getting benighted or the weather turning foul. Such occasions are quite rare though, which is probably a reflection of the fact that I don't get to do that much climbing in the mountains, or at least in places that I'm not familiar with. So for example I'd take a map for the Ben of the Cairngorms but not for Cloggy or the Black Ladders.

In reply to pyle:

I have basic map skills, but find if it is getting dark, or bad conditions it is easiest to get the passenger to navigate.

In reply to pyle:

Slightly disturbed on Kinder Scout having two apparently well-equipped pairs of people asking us to explain to them exactly where they were on their maps!

Y.

In reply to pyle:

I did an ML course so I hope i could find my way.

I did meet a couple who were using a 'coffee table' book of mountain to try and find their way up Ben Nevis. Rather worrying.

In reply to pyle:

If you bike a lot, mountain, road or even commuting, map reading skills are pretty useful. I've done some running around carrying a map and compass, I think they have a special name for that too...

In reply to TobyA:
orienteering? its great fun

In reply to pyle: i can - the army cadets tought us everything right up to multipoint resections, magnetic and grid conversions using mills to be more accurate than degrees. We did night nav excersises which broadens the mind as nothing looks the same. Great Experience being in cadets while I was young as we even went rock climbing and had an indoor wall more kids should try it and not be so negative or judgemental about cadets - whichever service

In reply to Misha:

Do you mean summer only or winter and summer? If the latter, I'm a bit surprised. I do know what you mean, I'm not sure - but we might not have taken the map out after doing Cneifion Arete last December in at times white out conditions because from time to time the cloud lifted to see a bit more (see last vid here: http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2009/12/wild-wales-winter-ascent-of-c... ) and the descent is basically "follow the ridge downhill". But in weather like that I wouldn't trust my knowledge/luck not to have both map and compass with me. But then I did some hill walking on my own as a teenager and only allowed to do so because my dad trusted what I had learnt in Scouts and with him about navigation, so its a bit like carrying some sort of survival bag in winter, or dipping in your chalk bag, its partly just habit!

But having done a fair amount of Scottish winter climbing, I would probably give up on a day if I found we had forgotten map and compass - at least unless the forecast was very good or it was a hill I knew very well.

In reply to Gandalf:


Sorry, I should have added a . I was making a little joke at the expense of the OP who suggested people reading the running forums on a climbing site aren't likely to know map work! I know loads of people on UKC have done a lot more than my dabbling in orienteering - as for example the discussion pre- and post-KIMM each year reveal!

Bikers - I'm not so sure about, I won the first ever MTB orienteering event I entered years ago (the novice class) by miles mainly because I think I could navigate well whilst other first timers were getting lost! But it seems MTB mags these days are full of routes on OS maps so I guess many XC MTBers are really map readers.

For those who think they are good navigators I suggest trying your skills when sea kayaking in an archipelago (you can't stand up; whatever shape and island is from above, they all look identical from the front; and sea charts have very few landscape marks on them meaning you might be able to see, say, a church, but it's not marked on your map!) or ski mountaineering in a white out (your skis forever turn to the slightest downhill meaning its very easy to turn 180 without even noticing this. I proven this somewhere between Aonoch Mor and Aonoch Beag!).

In reply to TobyA:

We all get turned around from time to time. It dosn't mean you cant navigate it just means that you missed a ridge or turned right a bit too soon.

The true test is how you deal with it after the error.

In reply to pyle: for some reason my brain refuses to work properly when navigating and (especially when tired/exhausted) schoolboy errors are made like confusing south west with north west, unless im at panic stations, such as a scottish blizzard then im a demon at navigating.

this might be my laid back attitude, i like to wander, but when it comes down to it i can get myself out of trouble.

i've met a lot of people who regard using a map and compass almost as an arcane mystical art and as such are afraid it seems of givving it a go, when in reality, the foundation skills you need are very simple and if not solely relying on common sense then only a little bit of thinking about needs to be done to put into practise.