UKC

I was training indoors tonight and in between climbs / sets etc., I was watching other people... as you do. It was very busy and there were lots of large groups bouldering. Quite a few looked like they were fairly new to climbing but were in good physical shape. They were using brute force and literally jumping and pulling themselves up through the problems and they were doing very well, very well indeed.

Now I've always been taught to twist, turn, drop-knee, balance and do everything I can to climb in the best possible style that I can. In fact I have to use those techniques to get up the damn things because I'm shorter than your average bean and am not quite as ballsy either.

So my question is two-fold. Firstly, is there any such thing as 'poor technique' or is it just whatever works is considered to be 'good technique'?

If the answer to the first question is 'yes there is such a thing as poor technique' then how far will poor technique get you? Is it possible to brute your way through the grades or is there a point where you literally have to have every move spot on to progress?

Personally I find that using twists, accurate footwork, heel and toe hooks works for me and it feels more efficient. It's the only way I can get up things and it feels nice too. It feels good to 'dance'* on rock rather than jump at it and power through.

Ok I lied, there's a third part. I tend to notice this more in bouldering than on routes, maybe this is because you have to be more efficient when climbing routes and just powering through will just leave you tired and not reaching the top? So can you just power through boulder problems because you don't have to be as efficient?**

*I'm no where near good enough to say that I dance on rock but I couldn't think of another way to put it!
** Not wanting to start a bouldering vs routes debate, just thought it might be relevant.

In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz): all depends on what climbs your on.all the arm power in the world wont get you up slab on smears <winks>
there are times when only brute force will do but generally the better your technique the less power you need for any given move

In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):
I'm pretty strong in a non-climbing sense (prop forward) and found initial progression very easy and on power full/good holds routes can do better than some very technically good climbers.
however very inefficient and tire rapidly.
some routes will not succumb to power alone

In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):

There's an interesting article in Climb or Climber magazine a couple of years ago, regarding strength vs technique. It went on to interview serveral top climbers, some of whom said they they couldn't do one arm pull ups, but had happily onsighted E8, E9 etc.

In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz): It depends on both the climber and the climb, you will always get the furthest with a good combination of both power and technique, but what appears to be bad technique may not be. If you have trouble just hanging on the holds and will pump out quickly regardless of feet, it makes sense to fly through the moves, however if you are capabl;e of the footwork to keep the weight off your hands that works too. There are situations where on the one hand you would have to be ridiculously stroing to take the yarding through approach and other situations where in order to really take the weight off your hands you'd need to be a gymnast.

In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz): Brute force will get you quite a long way in the fascinating world of indoor bouldering. But who cares, it's the lowest form of climbing. Only a combination of strength, technique, confidence and experience will get you to the top of a decent route. And even in bouldering, technique is extremely important once you get onto decent rock (font sandstone, grit, etc) - but the indoor gym junkies might do OK on some soulless limestone roof...but again, who cares.

In reply to Caralynr:

>but had happily onsighted E8, E9 etc.


You sure?!

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

No, not at all sure. In fact, re-reading that (I'm tired and should be in bed) pretty definitely unsure. Make that "climbed" E8/9! Sorry.
Anyway, the article is in a mag somewhere in my bathroom - would look it up but bedtime calls!

In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):
I was watching someone bouldering a few months ago on a slabby v4 at the castle, rather than resorting to technique he heaved himself up with one finger in a bolt hole. Power will get you a reasonable way but it doesn't look pretty!

In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):

Climbing specific brute force (finger strength, light body etc) will get you pretty far on the right boulder problems. I reckon fb7s. Doubt fb8s, but I never bother even looking at them! Wish it didn't though - there are so many better ways to be good at climbing! (and i'm *fairly* strong)

In reply to The_JT: There are plenty of font 8s that climb on very little more than the strength required, perfectly straightforward nails hard climbing.

In reply to @ndyM@rsh@ll:

Really? I really oughtta start doing some serious fingerboarding then! Strength, you used to be my strenght, but now it's time I got some more!

In reply to Jon Stewart: very well said.

In reply to Caralynr: There was an interesting article in climb a few months back too regarding the type of climber you are, I think refering to cars: Front wheel drive, rear wheel drive or four wheel drive. I think the gist of the article was with the first two types you will be able to get up a certain amount of problems, one requiring arm strength and the other requiring good foot work but to climb hard routes you will need to have a combination of both. I think there's a big difference between strength and brute force. Having worked in a wall, it was amusing to see big gym goers come in and nail the overhang on jugs only whereas they got thrown off a straightup route on slopers at floor level while someone with nothing on them could fly up it.

In reply to gg4419: That's an interesting concept.

In reply to gg4419:

That is an interesting concept, never heard it put that way before.

In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):

To climb hard on pure power you need serious finger strength - this in itself is time consuming to get and requires a lot of dedication. There is also a lot of technique to power moves eg latching a small hold from a big dynamic move requires a lot of core to kill the swing. Most people who put this amount of effort in will be grade whores and will therefore also spend time learning how to use their feet. However they may actually find power easier in a lot of scenarios particularly indoors. They will tend to be good at bouldering but will also be able to climb outside and will climb very differently on real rock.

There will be some people who are absolutely awesome with their feet and will use this to avoid power moves - they will be good at routes and struggle on boulder problems with big moves.

HOWEVER, there will be a huge number of punters powering up steep impressive looking things with good holds. They will plateau at V5 indoors and the highlight of a font trip will be an ascent of the marie rose after 15 attempts.

Know how to spot the difference between the types...

In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):


They may have been doing very well in terms of accomplishment on the night (and feeding their little egos?) They were almost certainly learning crap technique.


Nowhere near what you could have achieved with good technique.



I once saw someone crush (is this the current preferred term?) the crux of a F8b. He slipped off a 5c (English) smear above. And no, he wasn't even pumped. It was somewhat embarrassing.

Mick

In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):

I'm the same, and now I'm not strong enough to use the brute force approach either. However, the sort of Jackass flinging yourself at overhanging jugs that might get you up a short indoor problem isn't necessarily advisable on a runout technical pitch outdoors. It's good fun though!

Is this a certain bouldering wall in Stoke we're talking about?

In reply to gg4419:

I didn't really like the article. It was a but too simplistic. How many climbers do you know that have ZERO footwork technique or ZERO upper body strength. I think it is mistaken to think that people have either one or the other. Most climbers have better footwork than upper body strength or vica versa but not many good climbers are in complete abundance of one facet and have none of the other.

In reply to ypy:

To be fair the article I think was a bit more subtle and nuanced than the one line summary presented above. It was really more about preferred 'style' of various climbers rather than the complete absence of either strength or technique. The article wasn't really about one style being 'better' than any of the others either though it did point out the obvious limitations. I thought it was interesting and provided some useful food for thought.

It was by Dan Varian in Climb mag, FWIW.

In reply to necromancer85:

What he said.

Basically indoor campussing between jugs works fine until somewhere between about V4 and V6 when the holds stop being jugs and become too sloping or directional to hold and/or move between without body position coming into the equation in some way.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
One arm pull ups and E8/ E9 have nothing in common really, I wouldn't think.

It's probably more relevant to 8A boulderers and onwards (ie a lot of the problems aren't slabby and smeary) or sport climbers.

In terms of bouldering I'd think brute force alone would get you to around v4/5 maybe a bit further, but then I think even the more powerful problems at this grade start requiring more subtle positioning, with heels and awkward slapping, and proper sequences as oppossed to just pulling down.

In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):


There is definitely such a thing as poor technique (and it sounds as if you know this well!).

Poor technique won't get you anywhere, but strength will. You can get very weak climbers who can climb hard through technique (I have heard apocryphal tales of women who climb 8a not being able to do pull-ups, for example). However, strong arms can get you a very long way, especially on overhangs with big holds. Personally, I agree with you that climbing with technique is a joy and I always try to climb in good style. However, there are occasions when I have tried to climb things with technique (normally on roofs indoors) when I have made things harder for myself by not simply thugging my way through. Equally, I have climbed V5 (on real rock) in trainers purely by campusing between the holds - in that case technique doesn't really play a part.

There is an element of truth in your final observation too. Efficiency on a boulder problem is desirable, but you can definitely get away with substituting power more than you can on a route, purely because there are less moves. In fact, sometimes it is easier to use pure power than technique as it saves time hanging on poor holds - arranging your feet may be slower than campusing through.

In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):

As another person said, depends on the route.

High-graded overhangs on relatively big holds where the grade is given for the gradient and little else are climbable without technique if you have the strength and stamina. High-graded slabs are not, as they tend to rely on balance and technical ability.

I've introduced a lot of new climbers to the game though, and F6a appears to be where the brute-force-and-ignorance crew plateau. They then either stay at F6a forever or learn technique and progress further.

In reply to John_Hat:

I can vouch for that on a personal note, power will get me up some ovehanging routes but I struggle on the more technical stuff. While I still enjoy 'thugging' my way up a route (it can be very satisfying) I am trying to concentrate more on technique - progress is being made, but slowly. I've found that sometimes it's worth to drop back on the grade and climb it in better style, or simply to fail on a 'power route' using technique. New people/partners help tremendously for both inspiration and technique pointers - it's good to learn by watching and repeating.

I find that when it starts to get difficult I naturally slip back into old habits and from that point on it goes tits up as I lose my mental thread so to speak, dealing with frustration being the hardest at times.

Endurance could do with improvement as well but the solution to that is easier - more climbing and less pie and cake. Or even pie-cake.

In reply to Monk:

Can't do 8a but I used to climb with a woman who climbed 7c+ and claimed not to be able to do a pull-up. However, she was very good technically and could hang on forever, and anyway I didn't believe her, so put that in the 'apocryphal' category.

jcm

In reply to necromancer85:

They will plateau at V5 indoors


i can climb way above V5 indoors using just power and no technique!

In reply to Caralynr:

At last, conclusive proof that girls also read when sat on the bog and its not just men that do it.

Brilliant.

In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):

I found it got me up to about E3, given that I've always been an inflexible git with pretty poor technique.

Then I put on about two stone, so that was the end of that.

In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):
adam ondra cant do one arm pull ups....

In reply to stevedude888: That's a good point, Adam Ondra is clearly very weak indeed.

In reply to Dr.S at work:



Damn right! I have fat and old so I have to use a lOT of technique and "save" the strength for then there is no other option. Interestingly, there was one certain climb in an indoor wall that my bigger, stonger partner couldn't cope with, becuase he couldn't "thug" his way up it- it required balance, delicacy and precise footwork. On the other hand he could use his strength and reach were that, and pretty much only that, c]was the way to do a certain move or climb.

And, as has been mentioned, several wee climbs indoors are a different propostition from sustained fannying about outside, which will include the walk in, walk out, and possibly a multipitch. Slow but sure is the way there.

I find that rather than being in opposition, indoor and outdoor climbing should be vewed as complimentary with the indoor stuff honing technique and, with regular use, improving strength, agility and balance. The outside is great for pure enjoyment and putting all that ropework and problem-solving to use, a pleasure in itself.

Sx

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Like Karin Magog - she once told me that she could only do 6 chin-ups - at a time when she had climbed F8b. Grade-wise, her bouldering was less impressive but whatever she climbed was done in fantastic style and she could hang off the most hideous holds indefinitely.

I seem to be picking up a feeling on this thread that bouldering success requires no technique. Personally, I suspect that what technique I have is owed entirely to bouldering. As a complete weakling I have no other option - bouldering moves at my utter limit requires all the technique and tricks I can muster. When I'm trad on-sighting, higher technique is comparatively unimportant - a more rapid, slightly thuggy approach and lots of stubbornness seems to work best (or at least it's what I resort to!).

In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):



I have a reverse look at the topic.

where does worshipping technique alone bring you?

During my first climbing experiences I have been deeply influenced by "myths" about the superiority of footwork-based climbing, technique, etc...plus i had a skinny upper body with bulky legs and heavy frame...i had this idea that whenever my arms had to pull harder than a certain amount, either i was doing something wrong, or the climb itself was rubbish and not worth...Result : 5 years stuck in the french low 6's...the day I joined the local gym and accepted the whole concept of giving big overhangs and jugs a try, i progressed to 7a (a very fingery vertical wall!) in 6 months.
The truth is, that refusing to "pull hard" made it impossible to learn any technique requiring a minimal amount of core and upper body strenght to be performed correctly, which turned out to be an handicap even on slabs and walls. I was mastering rockovers, but total crap at the most basic twist move...

Now i have a funny time, when i go climbing with my g'f, who has started climbing an year and a half ago.
She's more talented than i was at my beginning, but has more or less the same mental barrier. She can't accept that sometimes a move will feel like a brutal nonsense effort, at least on the first try, even if you're not making obvious mistakes... So my usual suggestion would be in the lines of "Just pull as hard as you can and try to do a BIG move, there's no smart or elegant way on this one, accept it!" and when she does, i would compliment with her because she accepted to "climb badly", as the route required...

In reply to thebigfriendlymoose: Boulder problems are usually short, and there's a trend to give longer ones sport grades as well as or instead of bouldering grades. The technicality of a problem does not influence its grade, if an easier sequence for a problem emerges, it'll get a lower grade than it had. The difference between grades is how strong you need to be to be able to climb them with the requisite technique. The same is generally true of short powerful sport routes, less so of trad routes because of the confounding factors of gear quality danger and exposure etc.

In sport and bouldering terms, technique regardless you'll always be able to do more if you are stronger, the same is true of technique and endurance as well. Sometimes no matter how strong you are if you ain't doing it right you won't be able to do the move, sometimes no matter how good you are technically if you aren't strong enough you won't be able to do the move, and if you are too knackered you'll never be able to do the move.

In reply to @ndyM@rsh@ll: In actual direct answer to the OP, brute force alone will get you all the way up to the high 8s in bouldering, i imagine sport too but i can't say for certain because i don't do much, but as you reach each grade there would be a smaller and smaller proportion of the problems/routes at each grade that you could actually do, if you were strong enough you'd be able to do absolutely everything at 7C, but only the few 8Bs that were just straightforward pulling, any requiring more complex technique you'd obviously fail on.

In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz):

A bit ironic then that bouldering is the best way to improve technique (which I'd say is definitely true)?

In reply to Michael Gordon: No, bouldering is the best way to train strength, technique and even endurance because it's close to the ground and requires no swinging around on the end of a rope trying to get back in to the wall to repeatedly try moves, in other words it's convenient. There is nothing inherently different between climbing 5 feet and 50 feet from the ground. No irony.

i have a way of stopping this topic dead-its all about finger strength,nothing else matters if you cant hand the holds on your chosen climb!the end-goodnight

In reply to beastofackworth:

I think it had been driven into the depths of forgotten posts until you posted and bought it back to the top of the pile again

Seriously though I think my question has been answered somewhere above so thanks.

By the way, is 'strength' the same as 'brute force'?*




*Joke!

In reply to Steve Perry (Pezz): About V2 and Fr6b I reckon.....after that the holds are generally too poor to brute force.....

No, strength is not the same as brute force.....thats why the posers from the Gym get stuck on V1.....love it