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Dave Birkett climbs the wall left of The Walk of Life on Dyer's Lookout, Devon, one of the Southwest's last and best unclimbed lines.Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=58697
In reply to UKC News: Looks like a quality route and a fine effort.
In reply to UKC News: Great effort, as always!
In reply to UKC News:
Top effort.
btw in the first pic looks like the belayer is spotting him at a distance of about 30m!
Top effort.
btw in the first pic looks like the belayer is spotting him at a distance of about 30m!
In reply to UKC News: Looks awesome. Congratulations Dave.
In reply to UKC News:
Amazing good effort.
Funny that you think it's one of the Southwests last unclimbed lines though; it's not like the Peak down here you know!
Amazing good effort.
Funny that you think it's one of the Southwests last unclimbed lines though; it's not like the Peak down here you know!
In reply to UKC News:
Wow!
Although ... new pegs on a North Devon sea cliff? Did the fixed gear policy not translate into Cumbrian?
Wow!
Although ... new pegs on a North Devon sea cliff? Did the fixed gear policy not translate into Cumbrian?
In reply to UKC News: Awesome looking route. Inspirational stuff from a working climber.
In reply to quadmyre: meowwww!!!
In reply to UKC News: absolute legend.
In reply to Simon Rackley:
Indeed. I hope we're going to see a peg free ascent soon, quadmire?
> (In reply to quadmyre) meowwww!!!
Indeed. I hope we're going to see a peg free ascent soon, quadmire?
In reply to DJonsight:
Without wishing to distract people from Dave's new route - surely if the concensous in "no pegs" then it applies to everyone, no matter how cutting edge the routes they are putting up?
Are you saying that if someone is climbing at the tope end of the grade spectrum that such rules shouldn't apply?
Cheers,
Si
> (In reply to Simon Rackley)
> [...]
>
> Indeed. I hope we're going to see a peg free ascent soon, quadmire?
> [...]
>
> Indeed. I hope we're going to see a peg free ascent soon, quadmire?
Without wishing to distract people from Dave's new route - surely if the concensous in "no pegs" then it applies to everyone, no matter how cutting edge the routes they are putting up?
Are you saying that if someone is climbing at the tope end of the grade spectrum that such rules shouldn't apply?
Cheers,
Si
In reply to DJonsight:
I soloed it yesterday Dom, taking out the pegs with my teeth. Soft E5.
No disrespect to the legend that is Mr Birkett, it's without doubt an astonishing line, but placing new pegs to do it just seems weird in the context of the whole fuss Mr Pearson made about stripping the pegs from Dyer Straits to do WOL in the first place.
Christ what a beast of a slab though. Makes my toes hurt just looking at it.
I soloed it yesterday Dom, taking out the pegs with my teeth. Soft E5.
No disrespect to the legend that is Mr Birkett, it's without doubt an astonishing line, but placing new pegs to do it just seems weird in the context of the whole fuss Mr Pearson made about stripping the pegs from Dyer Straits to do WOL in the first place.
Christ what a beast of a slab though. Makes my toes hurt just looking at it.
In reply to UKC News: I never understood the business with Pearson and the pegs and the fuss, I thought he was just a nob. surely there are loads of pegs on the culm coast, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone a few more if they are talented enough to climb the route.
I heard quadmyre was grateful of the one in the top of Pacemaker recently, for example.
Also, whom is this "concensus" of? Nobody asked me. Maybe noboby asked Dave. Maybe the ethics on routes of this level should be left to those who are talented and brave enough to climb them.
I heard quadmyre was grateful of the one in the top of Pacemaker recently, for example.
Also, whom is this "concensus" of? Nobody asked me. Maybe noboby asked Dave. Maybe the ethics on routes of this level should be left to those who are talented and brave enough to climb them.
In reply to DJonsight:
I'm not criticising DB here, but that statement is daft. For example, that would allow a first ascensionist to place a bolt if they felt they needed it, or to chip holds. The FA doesn't get to choose the ethics.
> Also, whom is this "concensus" of? Nobody asked me. Maybe noboby asked Dave. Maybe the ethics on routes of this level should be left to those who are talented and brave enough to climb them.
I'm not criticising DB here, but that statement is daft. For example, that would allow a first ascensionist to place a bolt if they felt they needed it, or to chip holds. The FA doesn't get to choose the ethics.
In reply to DJonsight:
I heard DJonsight couldn't even read the topo for Pacemaker in the first place, for example
Look, to be honest I'm fairly nonplussed about the peg situation either way, I've hung and abbed shamefully and gratefully off enough of them in my time, and I quite like the character they add to many routes. It's just I thought the consensus was not to place any new ones.
> I heard quadmyre was grateful of the one in the top of Pacemaker recently, for example.
I heard DJonsight couldn't even read the topo for Pacemaker in the first place, for example
Look, to be honest I'm fairly nonplussed about the peg situation either way, I've hung and abbed shamefully and gratefully off enough of them in my time, and I quite like the character they add to many routes. It's just I thought the consensus was not to place any new ones.
In reply to quadmyre:
I thought this was how it is too? I had my eye on something new over the summer, obviously nothing as hard as this, but a peg would have been the only protection for a long way had I tried the route. I was told by another local who had been climbing for years the general consensus was not too.
I'm not blaming Birkett, I would just like to know his thoughts on the idea.
I thought this was how it is too? I had my eye on something new over the summer, obviously nothing as hard as this, but a peg would have been the only protection for a long way had I tried the route. I was told by another local who had been climbing for years the general consensus was not too.
I'm not blaming Birkett, I would just like to know his thoughts on the idea.
In reply to DJonsight:
Agreed
> Also, whom is this "concensus" of? Nobody asked me. Maybe noboby asked Dave. Maybe the ethics on routes of this level should be left to those who are talented and brave enough to climb them.
Agreed
In reply to quadmyre:
I think that this consensus seems to have been arrived at, although I'm not sure how or by who, but I'm not sure it's something that the locals have signed up to, from what I half remember of threads of this nature in the past. Certainly I remember some of the "don't replace rusty pegs" threads regarding the culm weren't exactly agreed with by some posters who lived very locally since they are often so crucial so quickly on the culm and they felt it would effectively turn a lot of routes that are otherwise fairly protectable into extremely bold undertakings, when occasional peg replacement was such a viable alternative.
AjM
I think that this consensus seems to have been arrived at, although I'm not sure how or by who, but I'm not sure it's something that the locals have signed up to, from what I half remember of threads of this nature in the past. Certainly I remember some of the "don't replace rusty pegs" threads regarding the culm weren't exactly agreed with by some posters who lived very locally since they are often so crucial so quickly on the culm and they felt it would effectively turn a lot of routes that are otherwise fairly protectable into extremely bold undertakings, when occasional peg replacement was such a viable alternative.
AjM
In reply to UKC News: Perhaps it's because without the pegs it would be e10 and i've heard somewhere that Dave can't count that high, or doesn't believe the number exists...
In reply to Monk:
Exactly. I know virtually nothing of the ethics in this area so I can't comment on Birkett's choice, apart from to say top effort! Looks like an incredible route.
The first ascensionist doesn't get to choose the ethics of such things. If this were true then it would be fine to place a peg on a new grit route just to get it done first...you can imagine the uproar that would follow! Ethics are decided by consensus (whatever that means).
Anyway, pegs or no pegs, this isn't a route I'm ever going to be good enough to climb so I don't care all that much. Looks like such an amazing line!
> (In reply to DJonsight)
>
> [...]
>
> I'm not criticising DB here, but that statement is daft. For example, that would allow a first ascensionist to place a bolt if they felt they needed it, or to chip holds. The FA doesn't get to choose the ethics.
>
> [...]
>
> I'm not criticising DB here, but that statement is daft. For example, that would allow a first ascensionist to place a bolt if they felt they needed it, or to chip holds. The FA doesn't get to choose the ethics.
Exactly. I know virtually nothing of the ethics in this area so I can't comment on Birkett's choice, apart from to say top effort! Looks like an incredible route.
The first ascensionist doesn't get to choose the ethics of such things. If this were true then it would be fine to place a peg on a new grit route just to get it done first...you can imagine the uproar that would follow! Ethics are decided by consensus (whatever that means).
Anyway, pegs or no pegs, this isn't a route I'm ever going to be good enough to climb so I don't care all that much. Looks like such an amazing line!
In reply to UKC News:
" If you want a number E9 6c will do." LOL! He really doesn't seem to care for the grade! He may as well have given it VS.
" If you want a number E9 6c will do." LOL! He really doesn't seem to care for the grade! He may as well have given it VS.
In reply to The Green Giant:
Birkett has different ethics to some other folk, e.g. Dave MacLeod. Many of his Lakes routes rely on pegs.
Birkett has different ethics to some other folk, e.g. Dave MacLeod. Many of his Lakes routes rely on pegs.
In reply to DJonsight:
Do you go to the SW area BMC meetings? Nobody's going to ask you if you don't make the effort to enter the discussion...
PS Good effort Dave, you crazy giant-handed bastard you.
> Also, whom is this "concensus" of? Nobody asked me.
Do you go to the SW area BMC meetings? Nobody's going to ask you if you don't make the effort to enter the discussion...
PS Good effort Dave, you crazy giant-handed bastard you.
In reply to UKC News:
Im local and cant see a problem with pegs, I clip them and am happy when I see them!
I did not go to the SW meeting as I was working and know many that did not attend that also have no issue with pegs used sensibly.
Great route Dave good to see hard new routes going up in the southwest without holds being drilled! keep comming and placing those pegs
James
Im local and cant see a problem with pegs, I clip them and am happy when I see them!
I did not go to the SW meeting as I was working and know many that did not attend that also have no issue with pegs used sensibly.
Great route Dave good to see hard new routes going up in the southwest without holds being drilled! keep comming and placing those pegs
James
In reply to UKC News:
Chapeau!
Another stunning line on a stunning piece of rock. Good to see Mr Birkett at the front again.
Chapeau!
Another stunning line on a stunning piece of rock. Good to see Mr Birkett at the front again.
In reply to DJonsight: i agree
In reply to UKC News:
Excellent effort and looks like a superb line. Pegs should be down to the discretion of the FA, but an FA will get future abuse if pegs were not needed. Again, cool effort.
Excellent effort and looks like a superb line. Pegs should be down to the discretion of the FA, but an FA will get future abuse if pegs were not needed. Again, cool effort.
In reply to UKC News: Nice one Dave, good to see your climbings coming on, I remember seeing that runnel from Earth Rim Roamer years ago, I think Ken P put a rope down it one time when I was there. Are you in Kendal for the Film Fest? If so look me up on the Saturday lunchtime.
In reply to rockjedi12345: i couldn't agree more, lets get behind our talented climbers instead of the british way of picking holes in their achievments.
In reply to Guy Atkinson: your either his mate or a rude person with comments like that, i'm hoping your his mate though.
In reply to UKC News:
I dont recall any concensus on pegs either. Pearson took the pegs out of Dyer's Strights, which was brave and commendable, but cant see how this equates to a moratorium on their use elsewhere in the area.
I dont recall any concensus on pegs either. Pearson took the pegs out of Dyer's Strights, which was brave and commendable, but cant see how this equates to a moratorium on their use elsewhere in the area.
In reply to UKC News:
Worth pointing out that this (fixed pro/pegs) is going to be one of the points voted on in the next area meeting at the Count House.
From memory there's going to be a vote on a BMC backed moratorium on new pegs/fixed pro in the area and a separate vote on the removal of existing pegs/fixed pro. I think the vote is set to apply to Cornwall generally, rather than just West Penwith. Can't remember if the issue is to be further separated into votes for pegs and a separate bolt vote, it all got a bit confusing.
Get down in April if you have an opinion either way, because right or wrong, whichever way the vote goes it is likely to be seen as consensus thereafter.
Worth pointing out that this (fixed pro/pegs) is going to be one of the points voted on in the next area meeting at the Count House.
From memory there's going to be a vote on a BMC backed moratorium on new pegs/fixed pro in the area and a separate vote on the removal of existing pegs/fixed pro. I think the vote is set to apply to Cornwall generally, rather than just West Penwith. Can't remember if the issue is to be further separated into votes for pegs and a separate bolt vote, it all got a bit confusing.
Get down in April if you have an opinion either way, because right or wrong, whichever way the vote goes it is likely to be seen as consensus thereafter.
In reply to Southern Man:
For those at the coal face, they will make up there own mind depending on the situation.
Talking to Dave further, he placed the first peg as initially he was climbing up the right edge of the pillar - about VS in standard but it was shedding holds and was essentially Russian roulette.
Then he had success on the direct. On the day of the lead the lower wall was damp and some of the horizontals there were filled with a slimey sludge, he put micro-cams in but they slid out, pulled easily, despite efforts to dry these thin horizontals out with rags and chalk.
So, damn he thought, he placed a peg.
Then led the darn thing. Drove home, had a beer.
No big deal really... 50 m of hard insecure climbing protected by fiddly small pro.
As regards James Pearson taking the pegs out of the upper part of Walk of Life .... good on him.
This is what I like about climbing, freedom of expression and diversity, making statements by your actions.... actions not words or meetings.
Mick
> (In reply to UKC News)
> whichever way the vote goes it is likely to be seen as consensus thereafter.
For those at the coal face, they will make up there own mind depending on the situation.
Talking to Dave further, he placed the first peg as initially he was climbing up the right edge of the pillar - about VS in standard but it was shedding holds and was essentially Russian roulette.
Then he had success on the direct. On the day of the lead the lower wall was damp and some of the horizontals there were filled with a slimey sludge, he put micro-cams in but they slid out, pulled easily, despite efforts to dry these thin horizontals out with rags and chalk.
So, damn he thought, he placed a peg.
Then led the darn thing. Drove home, had a beer.
No big deal really... 50 m of hard insecure climbing protected by fiddly small pro.
As regards James Pearson taking the pegs out of the upper part of Walk of Life .... good on him.
This is what I like about climbing, freedom of expression and diversity, making statements by your actions.... actions not words or meetings.
Mick
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Is that really ethics or style?
> (In reply to The Green Giant)
>
> Birkett has different ethics to some other folk, e.g. Dave MacLeod. Many of his Lakes routes rely on pegs.
>
> Birkett has different ethics to some other folk, e.g. Dave MacLeod. Many of his Lakes routes rely on pegs.
Is that really ethics or style?
In reply to UKC News: he was hovering around end of the affair on saturday,we moved on before anything happened though.
In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:
This is pretty mixed up thinkinking IMO. Do you think a bolt free ethic for, say, grit counts for nothing ?or would you support someone (anyone) making the statement "its too hard for me on the day so placed fixed protection"
> This is what I like about climbing, freedom of expression and diversity, making statements by your actions.... actions not words or meetings.
>
> Mick
>
> Mick
This is pretty mixed up thinkinking IMO. Do you think a bolt free ethic for, say, grit counts for nothing ?or would you support someone (anyone) making the statement "its too hard for me on the day so placed fixed protection"
In reply to GrahamD:
It's not mixed up at all Graham. The bolt free ethic on grit, or any climbing ethics are determined and enforced by the actions or inactions of climbers.
Climbers have chosen not to put bolts on grit routes - it is perhaps the widest and most well-established consensus we have in the UK.
The precedent is well established.
Hence no one would even consider it! (Ok there is the odd rogue bolt from back in the day). There is no debate. No gray area.
Similar on most mountain rock in the UK. It is because climbers have not placed bolts that the precedent is set. And if they have - they get taken out.
Not so on some other rock types.
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC)
>
> [...]
>
> This is pretty mixed up thinkinking IMO. Do you think a bolt free ethic for, say, grit counts for nothing ?or would you support someone (anyone) making the statement "its too hard for me on the day so placed fixed protection"
>
> [...]
>
> This is pretty mixed up thinkinking IMO. Do you think a bolt free ethic for, say, grit counts for nothing ?or would you support someone (anyone) making the statement "its too hard for me on the day so placed fixed protection"
It's not mixed up at all Graham. The bolt free ethic on grit, or any climbing ethics are determined and enforced by the actions or inactions of climbers.
Climbers have chosen not to put bolts on grit routes - it is perhaps the widest and most well-established consensus we have in the UK.
The precedent is well established.
Hence no one would even consider it! (Ok there is the odd rogue bolt from back in the day). There is no debate. No gray area.
Similar on most mountain rock in the UK. It is because climbers have not placed bolts that the precedent is set. And if they have - they get taken out.
Not so on some other rock types.
In reply to Morgan Woods:
Not that I'm qualified to comment, (but this is UKC so who gives...) but I'd say that the placing or not of pegs is 'ethics',
and the clipping of them or not is 'style'.
> (In reply to Michael Gordon)
> [...]
>
> Is that really ethics or style?
> [...]
>
> Is that really ethics or style?
Not that I'm qualified to comment, (but this is UKC so who gives...) but I'd say that the placing or not of pegs is 'ethics',
and the clipping of them or not is 'style'.
In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC: Did they remove them afterwards Mick?
I don't have strong feelings one way or another about using pegs there, but I guess a solution to the problem that Dyer Straits had with Vickers' pegs from the early 90s (which were rotten by the time Pearson tried the direct more than a decade later) would just be for the FAist to remove them after their ascent. Considering there are probably just three or four people likely to try and repeat Dave's new route, they could probably place their own pegs. You aren't likely to get scars on a route that so few will ever do.
Well done Mr Birkett. Stunning looking line.
I don't have strong feelings one way or another about using pegs there, but I guess a solution to the problem that Dyer Straits had with Vickers' pegs from the early 90s (which were rotten by the time Pearson tried the direct more than a decade later) would just be for the FAist to remove them after their ascent. Considering there are probably just three or four people likely to try and repeat Dave's new route, they could probably place their own pegs. You aren't likely to get scars on a route that so few will ever do.
Well done Mr Birkett. Stunning looking line.
In reply to Franco C:
If you want I'll take photos of you onsighting it? I'll even make you a cuppa
If you want I'll take photos of you onsighting it? I'll even make you a cuppa
In reply to Simon Rackley: Guy is referring to a previous article where Dave is recorded as saying there is no route over E10, I don't believe his post was meant to be offensive.
In reply to royal:
I understand your comment is light-hearted, but thinking these routes will never see onsight attempts is most likely flawed. Uniformatarianism would show that previous headpointed routes which were seen as impossibly difficult are now seeing onsight attempts- End of the affair, Parthian Shot, Impact Day, Mission impossible, point blank.
I understand your comment is light-hearted, but thinking these routes will never see onsight attempts is most likely flawed. Uniformatarianism would show that previous headpointed routes which were seen as impossibly difficult are now seeing onsight attempts- End of the affair, Parthian Shot, Impact Day, Mission impossible, point blank.
In reply to Franco C:
Surely pegs don't encourage the onsight ethic full stop, unless you can place them on lead? If they are in place, someone must have put them there, which means that the potential onsighter knows they are there and can clip them quickly, which is effectively climbing on preplaced gear...
> (In reply to TobyA)
>
> hardly encouraging the onsighting ethic...
>
> hardly encouraging the onsighting ethic...
Surely pegs don't encourage the onsight ethic full stop, unless you can place them on lead? If they are in place, someone must have put them there, which means that the potential onsighter knows they are there and can clip them quickly, which is effectively climbing on preplaced gear...
In reply to no one in particular:
for the record, I am completely ambivalent about the pegs on this route. It looks like an amazing route, and is a great effort.
for the record, I am completely ambivalent about the pegs on this route. It looks like an amazing route, and is a great effort.
In reply to Monk:
Do I hear straws being clutched? An interesting point (kinda), but a peg tends to be seen as a gear placement and a route can still be onsighted at the given grade with pegs in situ. This isn't the case if you have to start bashing pegs in mid-crux.
The main reason I hardly ever place pegs is because i'm too stingy to leave them in-situ, which is where any peg you place should really stay.... I do see the coastal point though. Intersting...
Do I hear straws being clutched? An interesting point (kinda), but a peg tends to be seen as a gear placement and a route can still be onsighted at the given grade with pegs in situ. This isn't the case if you have to start bashing pegs in mid-crux.
The main reason I hardly ever place pegs is because i'm too stingy to leave them in-situ, which is where any peg you place should really stay.... I do see the coastal point though. Intersting...
In reply to Franco C:
But surely, if you are a pure onisghter, you should extend the onsight ethic to new routes as well. Therefore, pegs are unlikely to find a comfortable place in a bold and pure onsight ethic.
> (In reply to Monk)
>
>
> Do I hear straws being clutched? An interesting point (kinda), but a peg tends to be seen as a gear placement and a route can still be onsighted at the given grade with pegs in situ. This isn't the case if you have to start bashing pegs in mid-crux.
>
> The main reason I hardly ever place pegs is because i'm too stingy to leave them in-situ, which is where any peg you place should really stay.... I do see the coastal point though. Intersting...
>
>
> Do I hear straws being clutched? An interesting point (kinda), but a peg tends to be seen as a gear placement and a route can still be onsighted at the given grade with pegs in situ. This isn't the case if you have to start bashing pegs in mid-crux.
>
> The main reason I hardly ever place pegs is because i'm too stingy to leave them in-situ, which is where any peg you place should really stay.... I do see the coastal point though. Intersting...
But surely, if you are a pure onisghter, you should extend the onsight ethic to new routes as well. Therefore, pegs are unlikely to find a comfortable place in a bold and pure onsight ethic.
In reply to Monk:
That would mean you banned people from headpointing routes, which is a bit fascist. The only rule in climbing is not to affect other people's day out, which I suppose the placing of pegs does do, but the route doesn't really exist before an FA I suppose... Placing a peg and then removing it, definitely affects other people and may make something un-onsightable.
That would mean you banned people from headpointing routes, which is a bit fascist. The only rule in climbing is not to affect other people's day out, which I suppose the placing of pegs does do, but the route doesn't really exist before an FA I suppose... Placing a peg and then removing it, definitely affects other people and may make something un-onsightable.
In reply to UKC News: looks a brilliant achievement. I guess Dave isn't too bothered about the pegs as they weren't placed simply for protection anyway.
A grade of E9 6c means it's virtually non-stop strenuous 6c with dodgy rock and certain death from a fall; so I doubt that there are going to be many takers, pegs or not. So why get steamed up about them?
A grade of E9 6c means it's virtually non-stop strenuous 6c with dodgy rock and certain death from a fall; so I doubt that there are going to be many takers, pegs or not. So why get steamed up about them?
In reply to UKC News:
Great effort well done!!!!!
Great effort well done!!!!!
In reply to Andy Stephenson: uh oh...
In reply to Franco C:
I guess the problem with not removing is unless you do the route not long after the FA you play Russian roulette with rusty peg eyes, which means you either go for it anyway, abb it yourself and blow the onsight or get a mate to check the pegs, which is hardly a pure onsight. The latter would be my preferred option but if you do that then you might as well have your mate place the removed peg and it be halfway good as check how bad the rust is...
I guess the problem with not removing is unless you do the route not long after the FA you play Russian roulette with rusty peg eyes, which means you either go for it anyway, abb it yourself and blow the onsight or get a mate to check the pegs, which is hardly a pure onsight. The latter would be my preferred option but if you do that then you might as well have your mate place the removed peg and it be halfway good as check how bad the rust is...
In reply to Franco C:
again like a lot of people on this site you seem to be getting style and ethics confused. Fraser above seems to be getting there.
Onsight/headpoint is a style of ascent and a personal choice and all things being equal doesn't alter the rock for future ascentionists.
> (In reply to TobyA)
>
> hardly encouraging the onsighting ethic...
>
> hardly encouraging the onsighting ethic...
again like a lot of people on this site you seem to be getting style and ethics confused. Fraser above seems to be getting there.
Onsight/headpoint is a style of ascent and a personal choice and all things being equal doesn't alter the rock for future ascentionists.
In reply to Morgan Woods:
I'd think I'd want a day to recover from just riding down from Cumbria on a bike at this time of year, never mind climbing the next day.
What an adventure. Nice one.
cheers
mark
I'd think I'd want a day to recover from just riding down from Cumbria on a bike at this time of year, never mind climbing the next day.
What an adventure. Nice one.
cheers
mark
In reply to AJM:
The answer is clearly replace the pegs with bolts.
> (In reply to Franco C)
>
> I guess the problem with not removing is unless you do the route not long after the FA you play Russian roulette with rusty peg eyes, which means you either go for it anyway, abb it yourself and blow the onsight or get a mate to check the pegs, which is hardly a pure onsight. The latter would be my preferred option but if you do that then you might as well have your mate place the removed peg and it be halfway good as check how bad the rust is...
>
> I guess the problem with not removing is unless you do the route not long after the FA you play Russian roulette with rusty peg eyes, which means you either go for it anyway, abb it yourself and blow the onsight or get a mate to check the pegs, which is hardly a pure onsight. The latter would be my preferred option but if you do that then you might as well have your mate place the removed peg and it be halfway good as check how bad the rust is...
The answer is clearly replace the pegs with bolts.
In reply to Calum Nicoll:
Drilled threads might be better, as it is easier to replace the tat rather than a rusted bolt.
> (In reply to AJM)
> [...]
>
> The answer is clearly replace the pegs with bolts.
> [...]
>
> The answer is clearly replace the pegs with bolts.
Drilled threads might be better, as it is easier to replace the tat rather than a rusted bolt.
In reply to Monk: Or just drilled cam slots. No need for any tat then either.
In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:
Isn't this a little dangerously close to saying 'do what you feel like, and then see how people judge you afterwards'? Which, as the recent controversy in Cornwall showed, is a really bad idea.
Are you saying that you are against the whole BMC structure of discussing and voting on contentious issues to establish a view on what is and isn't acceptable? To give people a clear indication before they do things whether they should or not rather than wait for controversy and then try and pick up the pieces afterwards. Because this statement sounds like you are, and that seems like a rather short-sighted position to take.
>
> This is what I like about climbing, freedom of expression and diversity, making statements by your actions.... actions not words or meetings.
>
> This is what I like about climbing, freedom of expression and diversity, making statements by your actions.... actions not words or meetings.
>
Isn't this a little dangerously close to saying 'do what you feel like, and then see how people judge you afterwards'? Which, as the recent controversy in Cornwall showed, is a really bad idea.
Are you saying that you are against the whole BMC structure of discussing and voting on contentious issues to establish a view on what is and isn't acceptable? To give people a clear indication before they do things whether they should or not rather than wait for controversy and then try and pick up the pieces afterwards. Because this statement sounds like you are, and that seems like a rather short-sighted position to take.
In reply to Calum Nicoll:
Ah, yes. Your stock response to everything and your answer to nothing.
ALC
> (In reply to AJM)
> [...]
>
> The answer is clearly replace the pegs with bolts.
> [...]
>
> The answer is clearly replace the pegs with bolts.
Ah, yes. Your stock response to everything and your answer to nothing.
ALC
In reply to victim of mathematics:
BMC Area meetings are a great way of discussing these issues and they can make recommendations.
But it is up to individual climbers as to what they do and don't do.
For example: This is the BMC's policy on retrobolting
'The BMC is firmly opposed to retrospective bolting (i.e. changing the character of a route by placing fixed equipment where none was previously used). Climbs should only be re-equipped on a basis of common consent established at open forums."
And many would agree with it.
But it hasn't stopped retrobolting in the UK.
The UIAA have a similar statement. Again it hasn't stopped the adding of fixed gear to established climbs.
It is individual actions that determine what happens at a crag. It also depends on the accepted ethics at a particular crag and the ethics of those that establish new routes.
Some climbers make great ethical statements that have wide ranging consequences - for example the sport climbing revolution in the 80's in the UK and the USA.
I think it works quite well in the UK and is constantly evolving, as ethics do.
Mick
BMC Area meetings are a great way of discussing these issues and they can make recommendations.
But it is up to individual climbers as to what they do and don't do.
For example: This is the BMC's policy on retrobolting
'The BMC is firmly opposed to retrospective bolting (i.e. changing the character of a route by placing fixed equipment where none was previously used). Climbs should only be re-equipped on a basis of common consent established at open forums."
And many would agree with it.
But it hasn't stopped retrobolting in the UK.
The UIAA have a similar statement. Again it hasn't stopped the adding of fixed gear to established climbs.
It is individual actions that determine what happens at a crag. It also depends on the accepted ethics at a particular crag and the ethics of those that establish new routes.
Some climbers make great ethical statements that have wide ranging consequences - for example the sport climbing revolution in the 80's in the UK and the USA.
I think it works quite well in the UK and is constantly evolving, as ethics do.
Mick
In reply to UKC News: great route name as well!
In reply to UKC News:
cracking looking route dave well done flower :O)
surely one (The ?) best trad climber in the country isn,t going to get court marshalled for putting ONE new peg in a line of this calibre ?
Any climbers wanting to improve daves style on the route should lead it without and remove it maybe ?
is this causing any more damage that the millions of cam worn slots all over stanage ?
cracking looking route dave well done flower :O)
surely one (The ?) best trad climber in the country isn,t going to get court marshalled for putting ONE new peg in a line of this calibre ?
Any climbers wanting to improve daves style on the route should lead it without and remove it maybe ?
is this causing any more damage that the millions of cam worn slots all over stanage ?
In reply to Andy Stephenson:
Great opening sequence to the film, one of the best
youtube.com/watch?v=bW-jSa9_k3M&
Looks like we are shy one horse.
Looks like you brought two too many!
Great opening sequence to the film, one of the best
youtube.com/watch?v=bW-jSa9_k3M&
Looks like we are shy one horse.
Looks like you brought two too many!
In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC: Fantastic opening to that film, it's my favourite western.
In reply to jas wood:
"surely one (The ?) best trad climber in the country isn,t going to get court marshalled for putting ONE new peg in a line of this calibre"
Or FOUR perhaps.... did you read the article?
"surely one (The ?) best trad climber in the country isn,t going to get court marshalled for putting ONE new peg in a line of this calibre"
Or FOUR perhaps.... did you read the article?
In reply to GrahamD: agree - Mick's post flies in the face of so much climbing history i.e. leading climbers going against what was generally regarded as acceptable at the time and then suffering the consequences. you cant have one rule for the general public and another for the elite.
im not commenting here on Dave's ascent / use of pegs, just Mick's post.
im not commenting here on Dave's ascent / use of pegs, just Mick's post.
In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC: im sure im not alone in reading this and your first post as being at odds with each other
In reply to ksjs:
I am afraid history tells us something different. The leading climbers of the day, and those establishing new routes, do set the ethics (and style) which the rest of us follow.
Look at gritstone for instance. Those establishing routes on grit did not place bolts and that ethic is well established on grit.
As grit climbing got harder and more dangerous, the top climbers practiced these routes on a top rope, then lead them with what gear opportunities they could engineer in the natural features of the rock.
We call that style headpointing and it is well established for the harder routes.
Similarly with bolting in the 80's. Those establishing new routes on limestone decided to place bolts for protection on blank limestone faces. There were no meetings, no dialogue, they just went out and did it. After some controversy - more so in the US, that ethic is now well established.
But that doesn't stop anyone of course from coming along and ground-upping previously headpointed grit routes. In fact that is happening, with and without bouldering cushions - Royal Robbins would be proud of that style improvement.
It also doesn't stop people taking bolts on out and doing a route on natiral gear or no gear at all - that happens rarely. One example is The Path at Lake Louise, Banf. The route was bolted, but unclimbed. Sonnie Trotter took the bolts out and headpointed the route using the available natural gear. What a great ethical statement.
Thai Boxing without its bolts by Tom Randall and Pete Whittaker is another example: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=57006
So yes, top climbers do set the trends and ethics and style. Sometimes we don't always follow them though.
> (In reply to GrahamD) agree - Mick's post flies in the face of so much climbing history i.e. leading climbers going against what was generally regarded as acceptable at the time and then suffering the consequences. you cant have one rule for the general public and another for the elite.
I am afraid history tells us something different. The leading climbers of the day, and those establishing new routes, do set the ethics (and style) which the rest of us follow.
Look at gritstone for instance. Those establishing routes on grit did not place bolts and that ethic is well established on grit.
As grit climbing got harder and more dangerous, the top climbers practiced these routes on a top rope, then lead them with what gear opportunities they could engineer in the natural features of the rock.
We call that style headpointing and it is well established for the harder routes.
Similarly with bolting in the 80's. Those establishing new routes on limestone decided to place bolts for protection on blank limestone faces. There were no meetings, no dialogue, they just went out and did it. After some controversy - more so in the US, that ethic is now well established.
But that doesn't stop anyone of course from coming along and ground-upping previously headpointed grit routes. In fact that is happening, with and without bouldering cushions - Royal Robbins would be proud of that style improvement.
It also doesn't stop people taking bolts on out and doing a route on natiral gear or no gear at all - that happens rarely. One example is The Path at Lake Louise, Banf. The route was bolted, but unclimbed. Sonnie Trotter took the bolts out and headpointed the route using the available natural gear. What a great ethical statement.
Thai Boxing without its bolts by Tom Randall and Pete Whittaker is another example: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=57006
So yes, top climbers do set the trends and ethics and style. Sometimes we don't always follow them though.
In reply to ksjs:
And that is true also. I wouldn't say suffering though.
Examples anyone?
> (In reply to GrahamD) agree - Mick's post flies in the face of so much climbing history i.e. leading climbers going against what was generally regarded as acceptable at the time and then suffering the consequences.
And that is true also. I wouldn't say suffering though.
Examples anyone?
In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:
Would you accept the Mr Edwards as an (extreme) example?
Thing is, he's never admitted to it, and it's impossible to prove.
But I'm sure you can see what I'm getting at.
I'm still to be convinced that climbing at the top of the current grade spectrum (or VERY close to it) should allow climbers to do as they please regarding placing pegs, bolts, etc.
Just because the route will see few, if any, repeats in the near future this doesn't mean that it wont do at some point.
Si
> (In reply to ksjs)
> [...]
>
> And that is true also. I wouldn't say suffering though.
>
> Examples anyone?
> [...]
>
> And that is true also. I wouldn't say suffering though.
>
> Examples anyone?
Would you accept the Mr Edwards as an (extreme) example?
Thing is, he's never admitted to it, and it's impossible to prove.
But I'm sure you can see what I'm getting at.
I'm still to be convinced that climbing at the top of the current grade spectrum (or VERY close to it) should allow climbers to do as they please regarding placing pegs, bolts, etc.
Just because the route will see few, if any, repeats in the near future this doesn't mean that it wont do at some point.
Si
In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:
Regarding the path, there are some photos of sonnie hanging on the bolts on something (it was a bolted route he did a bolt free lead of, so likely this one) before his lead whilst working the route. To me, it kind of ruins the point of a bolt free ascent if you use the bolts to work it enough to enable the headpoint...
Regarding the path, there are some photos of sonnie hanging on the bolts on something (it was a bolted route he did a bolt free lead of, so likely this one) before his lead whilst working the route. To me, it kind of ruins the point of a bolt free ascent if you use the bolts to work it enough to enable the headpoint...
In reply to The Green Giant: he replaced one and only placed one did he not ?
In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:
Not bad. Congratulations. Tell me, was it necessary that you kill all of them? I only told you to scare them.
People scare better when they're dying.
Not bad. Congratulations. Tell me, was it necessary that you kill all of them? I only told you to scare them.
People scare better when they're dying.
In reply to AJM:
Surely it made sense for him to leave the bolts in until he knew it would be possible for him to climb it without? A bit of a pointless exercise to remove the bolts and then find he wasn't able to do it!
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC)
>
> Regarding the path, there are some photos of sonnie hanging on the bolts on something (it was a bolted route he did a bolt free lead of, so likely this one) before his lead whilst working the route. To me, it kind of ruins the point of a bolt free ascent if you use the bolts to work it enough to enable the headpoint...
>
> Regarding the path, there are some photos of sonnie hanging on the bolts on something (it was a bolted route he did a bolt free lead of, so likely this one) before his lead whilst working the route. To me, it kind of ruins the point of a bolt free ascent if you use the bolts to work it enough to enable the headpoint...
Surely it made sense for him to leave the bolts in until he knew it would be possible for him to climb it without? A bit of a pointless exercise to remove the bolts and then find he wasn't able to do it!
In reply to Michael Gordon:
In my mind the fact he was forced to use the bolts to work it means its not a true bolt-free ascent, and by subsequently chopping them he is forcing everyone who wishes to repeat the route to do so in a style he wasn't able to or didn't choose to manage himself.
I would prefer it if he had either removed the bolts and then worked it, hence achieving himself the ethical style in which future ascentionists are obliged to attempt it, or left the bolts in and covered them up in a similar way to the way bolt free ascents of things like Edgemaster at Avon were done - you tape over the bolt so its unuseable, do the bolt free ascent (having done bolt-aided ascents before) but leave the bolts in so that future ascentionists have the option of repeating it with the bolts, boltless ascent but using the bolts to work it, or doing a bolt-free ascent with no use whatsoever of the bolts. Less relevant for this route, which I believe was a full-blown sports climb, but the fact that the bolts are still in place on things like Edgemaster does mean that instead of becoming (essentially) headpoint-only ascents it is possible to try and ground-up them whilst requiring a slightly more mortal level of ability
AJM
AJM
In my mind the fact he was forced to use the bolts to work it means its not a true bolt-free ascent, and by subsequently chopping them he is forcing everyone who wishes to repeat the route to do so in a style he wasn't able to or didn't choose to manage himself.
I would prefer it if he had either removed the bolts and then worked it, hence achieving himself the ethical style in which future ascentionists are obliged to attempt it, or left the bolts in and covered them up in a similar way to the way bolt free ascents of things like Edgemaster at Avon were done - you tape over the bolt so its unuseable, do the bolt free ascent (having done bolt-aided ascents before) but leave the bolts in so that future ascentionists have the option of repeating it with the bolts, boltless ascent but using the bolts to work it, or doing a bolt-free ascent with no use whatsoever of the bolts. Less relevant for this route, which I believe was a full-blown sports climb, but the fact that the bolts are still in place on things like Edgemaster does mean that instead of becoming (essentially) headpoint-only ascents it is possible to try and ground-up them whilst requiring a slightly more mortal level of ability
AJM
AJM
In reply to AJM:
"I would prefer it if he had either removed the bolts and then worked it...................."
Maybe you should get in contact and tell him, as your preferences are so important to the climbing world, as it would seem, are most people's on this site.
No one has said 'its the thin end of the wedge'.
"I would prefer it if he had either removed the bolts and then worked it...................."
Maybe you should get in contact and tell him, as your preferences are so important to the climbing world, as it would seem, are most people's on this site.
No one has said 'its the thin end of the wedge'.
In reply to mrconners:
A fairly pointless course of action don't you think?
I'm puzzled why you've bothered to put up a post saying basically that noone should express an opinion - are you particularly bored?
For me it's a simple thing - if you want to remove bolts because "this cliff shouldnt be bolted" then you go for it, but it seems wierd to me to chop bolts because "i didn't need them on my bolt free ascent, so they're unnecessary" when you used them in order to enable you to complete the ascent in the first place...
A fairly pointless course of action don't you think?
I'm puzzled why you've bothered to put up a post saying basically that noone should express an opinion - are you particularly bored?
For me it's a simple thing - if you want to remove bolts because "this cliff shouldnt be bolted" then you go for it, but it seems wierd to me to chop bolts because "i didn't need them on my bolt free ascent, so they're unnecessary" when you used them in order to enable you to complete the ascent in the first place...
In reply to AJM:
I'm not really that interested in peoples opinions on any of this, the guy is a bloody fantastic climber and its an amazing effort.
You are fully entitled to your opinion as is every person on the planet. Forums give us all the chance to express our thoughts on anything, which I think is fine.
How about you repeat it in the style you would prefer to see?
I'm not really that interested in peoples opinions on any of this, the guy is a bloody fantastic climber and its an amazing effort.
You are fully entitled to your opinion as is every person on the planet. Forums give us all the chance to express our thoughts on anything, which I think is fine.
How about you repeat it in the style you would prefer to see?
In reply to UKC News:
Anyone that's been stood at the bottom of this has surely thought, how can such a great expanse of amazing rock only have 1 line up it!?
Surely someone really strong is going to come along and put something new up.
Great to see that Dave's done just that. Inspirational.
Anyone that's been stood at the bottom of this has surely thought, how can such a great expanse of amazing rock only have 1 line up it!?
Surely someone really strong is going to come along and put something new up.
Great to see that Dave's done just that. Inspirational.
In reply to mrconners:
Come on, that's nonsense. Would you also tell people that they couldn't complain/remove bolts placed on some grit death route until they'd repeated the route without them?
As for the Devon route, unfortunately I think the groove is probably quite a different prospect with 4 pegs in it as opposed to none.
>
> How about you repeat it in the style you would prefer to see?
> How about you repeat it in the style you would prefer to see?
Come on, that's nonsense. Would you also tell people that they couldn't complain/remove bolts placed on some grit death route until they'd repeated the route without them?
As for the Devon route, unfortunately I think the groove is probably quite a different prospect with 4 pegs in it as opposed to none.
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